[20:02] <j1mc> hey charlie-tca
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I made it, j1mc
[20:02] <j1mc> looks like it's just you and I.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I we holler loud, maybe NCommander will join us?
[20:03] <j1mc> would you like to just briefly go over testing and documentation?
[20:03] <j1mc> sure
[20:03] <charlie-tca> sure
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Testing alpha3 was a nightmare
[20:03] <j1mc> why's that?
[20:03] <NCommander> *poof*
[20:03] <j1mc> hi NCommander
[20:04] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[20:04] <charlie-tca> We are left with a desktop cd from 8 versions back
[20:04] <NCommander> ENOBOT :-/
[20:04] <charlie-tca> compared to ubuntu
[20:04] <j1mc> charlie-tca: why's that?
[20:04] <NCommander> wait, what?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> They built ours on 01-14 and never rebuilt it
[20:04] <charlie-tca> ubuntu was rebuilt 8 times
[20:05] <charlie-tca> There is a partitioning bug we still have in it
[20:05] <j1mc> why was ours not rebuilt?
[20:05] <NCommander> No one asked
[20:05] <charlie-tca> the decision was made because it took too long
[20:05] <j1mc> i get daily email updates, and there was no note of any problem found
[20:05] <j1mc> hi vinnl
[20:06] <vinnl> Hey j1mc
[20:06] <j1mc> we're just discussing testin
[20:06] <j1mc> g
[20:06] <NCommander> we're a universe flavor, we're fairly low on the stuff to be done list :-/
[20:06] <vinnl> Started yet? ;-)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Myself and davmor2 reported the bug
[20:06] <vinnl> OK
[20:06] <charlie-tca> agreed, NCommander
[20:06] <j1mc> what can be done to resolve the problem?
[20:06] <NCommander> Get more people on the CD building team :-)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> At least the alternate cd is good. The bug on desktop is easy to workaround, when you find it
[20:07] <NCommander> We're simply not having luck with CDs this cycle
[20:07] <charlie-tca> I know!
[20:07] <NCommander> At least we get a USABLE CD
[20:07] <NCommander> hey cody-somerville
[20:07] <j1mc> we're discussing desktop-cd issues with the alpha-3 release
[20:08] <j1mc> < charlie-tca> We are left with a desktop cd from 8 versions back
[20:08] <charlie-tca> I have to take time real soon to go through the bugs on jaunty. We don't seem to be getting them past new very often
[20:08] <NCommander> We just need to make sure the next daily is ok
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Maybe the wording should be rebuilds back
[20:09] <charlie-tca> But the bugs are getting fixed! :-)
[20:09] <NCommander> I don't usually start to panic until the betas about our CDs
[20:09] <NCommander> alpha 4 probably going to be fairly broken since I doubt we'll finish the Xfce 4.6 transition by then (yay for the evil NEW queue)
[20:10] <charlie-tca> And the testing is okay, too, until the last alpha, anyway.
[20:10]  * NCommander notes that once 4.6 is fully updated, your work going to increase
[20:10] <NCommander> We're the first distro moving to 4.6.
[20:11] <charlie-tca> Aah, good. We are almost bored anyway...
[20:11] <charlie-tca> How soon do we get it?
[20:11] <NCommander> Anyone in the mood for a 4.6 progress report?
[20:11] <NCommander> Depends how long things take to go through the NEW queue
[20:11] <charlie-tca> yes, a report would be great!
[20:11] <NCommander> Ok
[20:12] <j1mc> anyone else part of a loco team?  ubuntu-chicago is participating in the global bug jam.  we could focus on testing and triaging xubuntu installs with 4.6 betas.
[20:12] <NCommander> j1mc, I'm a member of NY loco
[20:12] <NCommander> We have 4.4.3 in jaunty, and intrepid-proposed has it too
[20:12] <j1mc> the global bug jam is the week of 2/20.
[20:12] <j1mc> weekend of 2/20
[20:12] <charlie-tca> No loco teams in Idaho!
[20:12] <NCommander> 4.4.3 will be kicked into updates as soon as a corner an archive admin
[20:12] <NCommander> I've started uploading 4.6 packages to universe
[20:12] <j1mc> will 4.6 hit the jaunty repos by february?
[20:12] <NCommander> I'm hoping by the end of the month
[20:12] <j1mc> 4.5.whatever?
[20:13] <NCommander> yeah
[20:13] <NCommander> 4.5.93 already saw some uploads
[20:13] <NCommander> libxfce4util and gtk-engine-xfce got uploaded
[20:13] <NCommander> (thank you Xfce team for making sure your **** doesn't break out releases)
[20:13] <NCommander> xfconf and libxfce4menu are stuck in the NEW queue
[20:13] <NCommander> until those go through, I can't upload any other 4.6 packages
[20:14] <j1mc> NCommander: ok - about how long will it be before they are out of the NEW queue?
[20:14] <NCommander> A week
[20:14] <NCommander> maybe less if I can encourage an archive admin to look them over
[20:14] <mr_pouit> We'll need to rm *mcs* bits btw
[20:14] <NCommander> Once xfconf goes through, I can upload libxfce4gui which will be the basis for the rest of the 4.6 apps
[20:14] <mr_pouit> (hi there)
[20:14] <NCommander> mr_pouit, that won't happen for awhile
[20:15] <j1mc> :)  ok.  i guess it would just be ideal if we could have a full 4.5.X available in jaunty by the global bug jam weekend.
[20:15] <NCommander> We still need to NBS all the 4.4 packages
[20:15] <NCommander> Once the 4.6 packages go, we need to do seed changes (hello broken CDs), and update xubuntu-default-settings
[20:16] <NCommander> There is a 4.4 -> 4.6 migration script, so it shouldn't be too difficult, just tedious.
[20:16] <mr_pouit> dependencies should be automatically pushed, so it shouldn't be so painful
[20:17] <NCommander> Right
[20:17] <NCommander> Then we need to NBS out mcs
[20:17] <NCommander> and make sure we haven't hosed our upgrade path
[20:17] <NCommander> (we're dealing with a lot of packages moving around, so upgrade testing 4.4 -> 4.6 will be a top priority
[20:19] <mr_pouit> +1
[20:19] <NCommander> I also want to see if we get feature parity with GNOME
[20:20] <NCommander> We seem to only get their new features one release later
[20:20] <NCommander> (I should say ubuntu-desktop vs. GNOME)
[20:20] <NCommander> Such as the logout menu
[20:20] <charlie-tca> They have a new one in testing
[20:20] <NCommander> Either we should port that to Xfce's API's, or simply shove xfapplet into our default settings
[20:20] <vinnl> Something problematic when it comes to that is that some GNOME applications which we *can* use do not appear because the .desktop files show OnlyShowIn=GNOME
[20:21] <vinnl> I'll try to upgrade not too late and then keep an eye on that
[20:21] <NCommander> vinnl, if you poke me, I can update those packages if need be, or poke the updater :-)
[20:21] <NCommander> Ok
[20:21] <NCommander> More news
[20:21] <vinnl> I've reported some on Launchpad
[20:21] <mr_pouit> Speaking of the logout menu, it would be better if we don't carry a delta that adds strings...
[20:21] <NCommander> As some of us are aware, Ubuntu (and thus Xubuntu) has an ARM port
[20:22] <NCommander> mr_pouit, well, I'd like to make xfce4-session vanish, using the logout menu to replace it
[20:22] <NCommander> I think we need to look strongly at making sure ARM is a supported Xubuntu architecture (I also want to see PowerPC at least return to semi-supported; aka, linked off the front page)
[20:22] <NCommander> I've personally tested Xubuntu on ARM, its pretty sexy
[20:23] <mr_pouit> We should try to make a non-buggued release first amha
[20:23]  * NCommander uses the stick on mr_pouit 
[20:23] <mr_pouit> :p
[20:23] <NCommander> Supporting ARM is relatively easy, everything already works there
[20:23] <JPohlmann> Hey guys. Sorry for being late. I totally forgot about time when playing guitar.
[20:23] <NCommander> We just need to make sure the website makes it clear that support exists
[20:23] <NCommander> JPohlmann, that's what happens when your on a stairway to heaven :-)
[20:23]  * NCommander runs from the bad pun
[20:24] <JPohlmann> Hehe
[20:24] <NCommander> JPohlmann, how's upstreams attitude with w.r.t. to supporting small screen devices?
[20:25] <NCommander> i.e., are we on our own, or does upstream want it :-)?
[20:25] <mr_pouit> cody-somerville: what were you planning for sion? (included in the seeds or not?)
[20:26] <JPohlmann> NCommander: We're positive about it.
[20:26] <NCommander> awesome
[20:26] <NCommander> cody-somerville, your an archive admin, aren't you, can't you magic the 4.6 packages through ;-)?
[20:27] <JPohlmann> It's clearly not our main target and most of our applications are not really designed to take up as little space as possible, but why should we be against running Xfce on small screens?
[20:27] <mr_pouit> NCommander: I don't think he's an archive admin ;p
[20:28] <j1mc> mr_pouit: i had to look up "amha."  all i could find was American Miniature Horses Association, until I found "À Mon Humble Avis" (in my humble opinion).  :)
[20:28] <mr_pouit> j1mc: oops, sorry, imho ;)
[20:28] <NCommander> JPohlmann, well, its likely going to happen, since netbooks are all the rage, having a light weight yet full featured DE is going to be a huge win
[20:28] <j1mc> np  :)
[20:28] <NCommander> So its on our radar to improve netbook support for Xfce.
[20:28] <vinnl> NCommander, it's already happening a lot on Neo Freerunner devices (from OpenMoko)
[20:28] <vinnl> That's even smaller
[20:28] <JPohlmann> NCommander: I'd say netbooks are within our main target range.
[20:28] <JPohlmann> NCommander: I'm all for it.
[20:28] <NCommander> People have Xfce running on the freerunner?
[20:29] <NCommander> O_O!, I need a freerunner now
[20:29] <JPohlmann> Dunno. But we have at least two Xfce developers with netbooks ;)
[20:29] <vinnl> NCommander, yep, Debian runs on it and Xfce is the platform of choice :)
[20:30] <NCommander> vinnl, its a pity Ubuntu ARM requirements are too high for the Freerunner :-/
[20:30] <NCommander> Did we have an agenda for this meeting, or is this one of our usual adhoc meetings?
[20:30] <vinnl> I didn't really see anything on the wiki
[20:30] <vinnl> Except for the Brainstorm ideas that might be discussed ;-)
[20:30] <mr_pouit> I wanted to know what cody was planning (for the seeds), but he doesn't seem to be here.
[20:31] <NCommander> mr_pouit, well, he joined, but as I'm learning, just because Cody's IRC client may be somewhere doesn't mean he's actually here
[20:31] <mr_pouit> ;]
[20:31]  * charlie-tca nods
[20:31] <NCommander> Ok, more news
[20:31] <NCommander> We're moving to Bazaar packaging
[20:31] <NCommander> This has the added bonus of making syncing with Debian Xfce trival
[20:31] <j1mc> \o/
[20:32] <NCommander> (bzr merge svn://pkg-xfce.d.o/*path to branch*)
[20:32] <NCommander> And it pulls everything thats changed, even changelog entries, so no more manually mangling packages
[20:33] <NCommander> I'd like to setup AutoPPA (cody suggested this to me), so we can make sure our nightly branches are always hapy
[20:33] <NCommander> *happy
[20:34] <NCommander> so every night we can have a batch of steaming hot PPA packages to test the lastest changes (and our best friend w.r.t. to testing stuff)
[20:34] <j1mc> sounds excellent, NCommander
[20:34] <charlie-tca> great!
[20:35] <NCommander> We also had some discussions at UDS about intergrating autoPPA with Xfce upstream so we'd have a set of packages that just represented the base Xfce system
[20:35] <NCommander> I dunno where those discussions went, cody was talking about it
[20:36] <NCommander> JPohlmann, BTW, care to tell us about the new sexiness of 4.6 :-)?
[20:37] <JPohlmann> NCommander: Anything specific you wanna know?
[20:37] <NCommander> just give us a general overview
[20:37]  * NCommander has run 4.6, but I'm unsure of anyone else)
[20:38] <JPohlmann> Hard to summarize in one sentence. 4.6 will bring a lot of changes to the Xfce platform but also a number of new features visible to the user.
[20:39] <NCommander> Well, I felt it was faster, and fairly stable, even for an alpha
[20:40] <JPohlmann> As for the platform: the old MCS system has been replaced with a D-Bus based settings daemon called Xfconf. We've rewritten most of the settings dialogs to use it. Another thing is that there is now a new menu library which aims to be XDG compliant.
[20:40] <JPohlmann> xfce4-session has been improved a lot.
[20:41] <JPohlmann> It now starts applications in parallel (which speeds things up) and now uses D-Bus as well to talk to session clients. There's now a session editor as well.
[20:41] <NCommander> Very sexy
[20:41]  * vinnl drools
[20:41] <JPohlmann> Other than that, there is both a graphical and a console tool for accessing/modifying the settings: xfce4-settings-editor (GUI) and xfconf-query (console).
[20:42] <JPohlmann> Two applications were rewritten from scratch: xfce4-mixer (now based on GStreamer 0.10) and xfce4-appfinder (now uses ThunarVFS to reload contents when applications are installed/removed).
[20:44] <JPohlmann> There are more changes of course, but these are probably the most important ones.
[20:45] <j1mc> so - so far we've discussed testing and xfce 4.6 features.  anything else on those topics?
[20:45] <NCommander> nothing I can think of offhand
[20:46] <j1mc> oh, and we discussed using bzr more extensively, too.
[20:46] <j1mc> :)
[20:46] <j1mc> care for an update on documentation?
[20:47] <j1mc> i've been working on the xubuntu docs, but xfce docs may not be included in the 4.6 release.
[20:47] <j1mc> likely 4.6.1
[20:47] <j1mc> or, they would be included, but not significantly updated
[20:47]  * NCommander makes an off the cuff remark on the state of our intrepid documentation
[20:48] <j1mc> "off the cuff"?
[20:48] <NCommander> side comment
[20:48] <NCommander> Although it may be improved by now
[20:48] <j1mc> "our" meaning xubuntu, or xfce?
[20:48] <NCommander> j1mc, er, you do know about what happened with the Xubuntu 8.10 docs, right?
[20:49] <j1mc> that they weren't updated
[20:49] <NCommander> It was more something like this
[20:49] <NCommander> A few days before release:
[20:49] <NCommander> cody: Why are our docs still saying 8.04
[20:49] <NCommander> Me: oh ****
[20:49] <NCommander> Both: *panic, bump the version number*
[20:50] <NCommander> Lets NOT have a repeat of this
[20:50] <j1mc> NCommander: i'm on top of it
[20:50]  * NCommander hugs j1mc 
[20:50] <NCommander> :-)
[20:50] <NCommander> I'm still amazed we haven't gotten any bugs on it AFAIK
[20:51] <j1mc> yeah, very few
[20:51] <NCommander> Documentation: We write it, the users don't read it :-P
[20:52]  * charlie-tca thinks NCommander worries too much...
[20:52] <j1mc> :)
[20:52] <NCommander> charlie-tca, years and years of exposure to end users have drained away my hopes and dreams.
[20:52] <charlie-tca> Yeah, that too
[20:53] <j1mc> anything else for discussion today?
[20:54] <j1mc> any word from knome on artwork?
[20:55] <charlie-tca> I am trying to put together something for telling what hardware testers have, but the last two I asked dropped out of testign
[20:55] <vinnl> Does the Print Screen-key work by default in Xubuntu?
[20:55] <charlie-tca> no, vinnl
[20:56] <charlie-tca> And yes, we have a bug-report on it, too
[20:56] <vinnl> Will xfce4-screenshooter be included for Jaunty?
[20:57] <charlie-tca> Xfce devel said it is up to us to try to make print-screen key work with screenshooter
[20:57] <j1mc> all, i need to run.  i'll keep my session running here, though, and will post minutes by tomorrow at the latest
[20:57] <charlie-tca> se you later, j1mc
[20:58] <vinnl> Bye j1mc
[20:58] <vinnl> OK then
[20:58] <charlie-tca> NCommander: ^^
[21:00] <NCommander> cya
[21:47] <j1mc>  /quit