nothingmanhi, all02:26
nothingmanjust wondering how things are going toward using sugar and ejabberd for collaboration between thin clients02:26
nothingmanI read nubae's howto on both, but I don't know how to get there from here02:27
* nothingman is wondering which would be better for virtualization on fat clients, virtualbox ose or qemu04:13
LaserJockhmm, might depend on what you're doing04:15
LaserJockwhy are you wanting to do it on the client?04:15
nubaehey LaserJock04:21
nubaesomeone regressed your sugar commit04:21
nubaeI've been battling with the damn thing for over 2 hours now, and realised that a new package is out, which once again breaks browse!04:22
nubaeit at least seems that way04:22
LaserJockis that on Intrepid?04:22
nubaeand jaunty04:22
nubaewell jaunty has bigger problems, depends on python-xpcom 1.9, which isn't packaged yet04:23
nubaedo u have a ppa with your package?04:23
LaserJockwell, kinda04:24
LaserJockanybody with a Launchpad account has a PPA available04:24
nubaeI'm happy with just the 2 debs :-)04:25
LaserJockhmm, I wonder what we can do about this04:26
nubaeI need a fix in the next 30 minutes... so I think just overwriting with .debs is my option at this point04:26
LaserJockwell, you could try building your own .deb04:28
nothingmanLaserJock: because my servers are ram-maxed towers04:28
LaserJocknothingman: ah, and why do you need virtualization?04:29
LaserJocknubae: actually, I think you might be able to just symlink it for now04:29
nothingmanwell, it would be nice to take these laptops without HDs, but *with* XP licenses, and boot whatever so the students can use all the software that's accumulated over the last decade or so04:30
LaserJockI see04:30
LaserJockI wonder how well that'd work04:30
nubaeu released 0.4.6-0ubuntu2 right?04:31
nothingmanwe got to try the Fiddlehead for a bit, and that was nifty04:31
nothingmanit's a Linux distro with VirtualBox and multiseat set up so that it's easy to add video cards and usb peripherals to make more seats and boot any x86 OS04:32
nothingmanand I thought: why not try it with ltsp?04:33
nothingmanafter all, I would have a dedicated CPU for each instance of Vbox+OS04:33
* LaserJock kicks rmadison04:33
LaserJocknubae: the "fixed" version is 0.4.6-0ubuntu2.104:34
LaserJockwhich hasn't been released yet04:34
nothingmanI mean, a gig of ram for one fiddlehead server with two seats runs XP pretty well04:36
nubaewell its not in -proposed anymore then04:37
LaserJocknubae: it should be in -proposed04:37
nubaeits not04:37
LaserJockhmmm, odd04:38
nubaeah wait, I have python-hulahop_0.4.6-0ubuntu3~ppa1_i386.deb04:42
nubaeapt-cache show gives all the instances of a package04:42
nubaenot just the latest installed04:42
LaserJockyou can look at apt-cache policy as well04:43
nubaeah nice one...04:44
nubaewell got 2.1 installed on my laptop and browse does not work04:45
nubaeI dont get it04:46
LaserJockdo you have /usr/lib/xulrunner- ?04:47
LaserJockoh, that's not right04:49
nubaewhats the package name?04:50
nubaestrange cause I installed sugar*04:50
LaserJockits 0.3 for Intrepid but 0.5 for intrepid-updates04:51
nubaestrange it didnt install04:51
LaserJockcan you get it?04:52
nubaeyep... that fixed it, thanks LaserJock, u save my ass :-)04:53
LaserJockthat's why they pay me the big bucks :-)04:54
LaserJockbtw, it sounds like some pretty big things are going to be happening in KDE for education04:54
calimerthat is good news!04:59
calimerI wanted put an ubuntu distro on my nix hd but I might as well just wait for jaunty04:59
LaserJockAaron Seigo seems to be really taking education serious04:59
LaserJockwe had a fairly lengthy chat today about what KDE can do for educators and how we can better link educators and developers05:00
LaserJockI told him I really would like to see effort on user management and settings control05:01
LaserJockso perhaps kiosktool will get some revamping, amongst other things05:02
LaserJockanyway, I'll be trying to get input from educators and school IT people on what they need05:03
LaserJockand hopefully we can translate that into directing some KDE efforts upstream05:03
stgraberhaving KDE4 to actually work on LTSP would be cool ltoo :)05:19
stgraberI believe someone at Revolution Linux sent Aaron an email about that05:19
LaserJockstgraber: what's wrong with it?05:20
stgraberfirst session open time takes over 30s because of a khotkey bug, ltspfs (usb key, cdrom, ...) doesn't work because kde4 doesn't scan /media/*/* for new directories, things like switch user/reboot/shutdown/sleep/hibernate are present even when not possible05:21
stgraberKDE4 doesn't use pulseaudio when PULSE_SERVER is set05:21
stgrabermoving to a large resolution to a small resolution doesn't resize the panel, ...05:22
LaserJockstgraber: ah great, good to know05:22
LaserJockstgraber: that'll be important to bring up05:22
stgraberoh and my favorite, all windows appear as random video junk and then are refreshed a few ms later with the actual content05:22
stgraberand there is also no way to turn these plasmoids off so when you don't have hardware accelaration it just does it with software rendering05:23
stgraberso moving the desktop plasmoid takes "just" 100Mb/s :)05:23
stgraber(and makes low-cost thin clients like geodes to crash)05:24
servidortem alguem que fale em portugues?12:59
sbalneavMorning all13:45
Ahmuck*yawn*.  good morning17:20
a931bwЗа что,19:10
ubottuEdubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative aimed at schools and educational institutions. For more info, see http://www.edubuntu.org19:10
a931bwПомогут мне?19:12
sbalneavI don't think anyone here speaks russian.19:14
LnsToo bad there's no bot scripts that does auto translation via babelfish or something for IRC19:15
sbalneava931bw: Никто здесь говорит русского19:16
sbalneavThat's from babelfish19:16
sbalneavYeah, but I manually translated it.19:17
sbalneavAn interesting meme in #ltsp is "do the needful", which is how babelfish translates "help me please" in either Portugese or Spanish.  So people coming into #ltsp and using babelfish for translation often "say" this.19:21
sbalneavSo it's become a bit of a "joke phrase" within the LTSP community.19:22
sbalneavI.e. "yeah, lets fix this bug, so we can 'do the needful'"... or "Could you do the needful, and pass me the steak sauce", etc.19:22
sbalneavThat, and one of the most famous phrases in LTSP: "what means 'LTSP rocks'?"19:23
Lnssbalneav: do the needful and tell me what 'LTSP rocks' mean pls19:24
sbalneavSomeone was directed to the LTSP mailing list, who wasn't an english speaker, and came backm after reading a post where someone said 'LTSP rocks!', and asked that in the channel.19:24
alkisgLTSP скалы!19:25
sbalneavSo, it's become another "in joke" within LTSP.19:25
Lnsand it made it into the scripts too, heh19:25
sbalneavAs in: "what means 'Lns rocks'?" etc.19:25
sbalneavTwo little bits of LTSP apocrophia there.19:26
Lnshehe, I'm so in with the ltsp crowd now... being cool, hangin out by the stick...19:26
sbalneavWhoops, I should have spelled that Apocrypha19:27
alkisgOr, απόκρυφα (since we're talking about internationalization... :))19:28
sbalneavYeah, now you know the secret phrases and handshakes, all you need to do is cultivate a love of beer and lobster, and you're in like flynn19:28
alkisgHeh... lets see how that lobster logo fares19:29
sbalneavLTSP has always been more about fun than code.  Thank heavens.19:29
LnsWell I already love beer and lobster, so I guess I need my membership card ;)19:30
sbalneavI actually like to think LTSP is one of the last "big" (in terms of number of people using it) Free Software project that's sort of stayed true to it's roots.  No big flashy .org running it, no non profit, no paid spokesperson, etc.  Just a rag-tag bunch of misfits having a good time.19:49
Lnssbalneav: that's why I think I like it so much too (besides the technology keeps to the roots of X and expands on it)19:56
Lnsit seems that nobody wants to reinvent the wheel so to speak, but keep to the 'best practices' of coding, etc.. which is really nice, especially for someone just getting into programming, etc.19:57
LnsThat's why I love linux so much.. there are tools available that do pretty much everything, you just need to know how to tie them all together...LTSP is the perfect example of doing this19:57
LaserJockafternoon all20:00
LaserJockhi dgroos20:00
Lnshey LaserJock20:00
dgrooshi LaserJock20:01
dgroosalso, hi Lns20:01
LaserJockhi Baby20:01
Lnshey dgroos20:01
* Ahmuck just waves to everyone20:01
dgroosLns: you're Jordan, yeah?20:02
LaserJockdgroos: yeah, we have 2 of them and our nicks both start with "L" :-)20:02
Lnsdgroos: yep, one of em ;)20:02
LaserJockand actually we don't live that far away either, very odd ;-)20:03
Babyhi!! :)20:03
dgroosLns: recall that I sent you an e-mail a week ago thinking you were the Jordan of Edubuntu-menus?20:03
LnsLaserJock: it's a sign.. we must create a directional 802.11 network between us!20:03
dgroosSmall world!20:03
Lnsdgroos: yes! That's actually LaserJock20:03
nubaeLns: u should change your nick to beamgeek20:04
dgroosLns: right!  I figured that out a few days ago on this very channel.20:04
Lnsnubae: umm, no. =p20:04
Lnsmaybe /nick TheRealJordan =p20:05
dgroosLaserJock: That's been quite a ride since the publishing of your last blog entry.  From getting a hit or few a day, I all of a sudden got 300 over 4 days.20:06
LaserJockdgroos: yeah, digg will do that20:06
LaserJockI got around 5k I think20:07
dgroosGot me to wanting to improve the looks: http://groosd.blogspot.com20:07
dgroosYou also got 31 comments!20:07
nubaefunny how the relation of readers to commenters is about 500:120:09
nubaewell maybe 300:120:09
dgroosI've spent my flex time these last few days trying to update my blog.  I also got inspired to update the (very) stale Ubuntu project pages.20:09
LaserJock226:1 for me20:10
Lnsdgroos: which ubuntu project pages are you updating?20:10
dgroosLns: Hmmm maybe I should rephrase that and say that's I updated MY project pages on the Ubuntu wiki :-)20:11
dgroosFor example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ManageGroups20:11
Ahmucki've a question about ubuntu.  there is so much documentation out there, community pages, etc. that i find it impossible to wade throught he mess sometimes20:12
LnsAhmuck: agreed20:12
nubaeI had a good talk with education specialists and teachers today...20:12
Lnsdgroos: nice20:12
nubaeIts so important to get a view from them, as it is SO different from what developers implement20:12
Ahmucknubae: agreed20:13
nubaethe main thing they want is good admin parts to activities20:13
LaserJocknubae: that's precisely what aseigo of KDE wants20:13
nubaeand the possibility of collaboration20:13
dgroosLns: thanks. here's another: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ComputerLab20:13
Ahmucki've found that many times devs have a disconnect between the people they think they are helping, and then get upset when the users speak up20:13
nubaeI spent 6 hours listening to their ideas20:13
nubaeI'll be writing it up... but it was very much about sugar and collaboration20:14
Lnsnubae: the school techs I've talked with seem very excited about me implementing a simple wiki for teachers to use for central bookmarks, content for students, etc.20:14
LaserJockAhmuck: it can depend a lot from project to project20:14
nubaethough everyone agreed, sugar is not ready yet20:14
dgroosnubae: who were these educators/teachers?20:14
Ahmucknubae: about sugar and collaboration because that's what your focused on?20:14
nubaeyeah, they really want simplicity with working activities before anything20:14
Lnsnubae: Please post to the list when you get it written up...i'm sure it would be pure gold20:14
nubaethey spoke about maths activities that could be customised per student20:14
nubaewhere teh teacher could collect data at teh end of the lesson in an admin panel20:15
nubaeand being able to customise the content per class too20:15
nubaeit really made a lot of sense20:15
nubaebut yeah I'll write it up and post to the list20:15
Lnsnubae: sounds like a job for a nice little central db backend..20:15
nubaeAhmuck: no, just that thats what teachers are interested in20:16
nubaethey dont want complex elaborate activities20:16
nubaethey want the real simple stuff, but to be managable and customisable20:16
dgroosMight it not be great to put these ideas on the edubuntu/ubuntu wiki?  That would allow a bit of a discussion.  sort of.20:16
nubaeso THEY choose how to present it to the class20:16
LaserJockwell, we need to be somewhat careful with how we do all this20:17
LaserJockwe've already got waaaaay to many wiki pages to maintain20:17
nubaeanother really simple idea for example, was a typing tutor, but one where they compete with each other to type a phrase the fastest, compared to the teacher say... and tehn output the results in a common report20:17
nubaeits real simple stuff to implement20:18
LaserJockwe need to maybe use brainstorm20:18
nubaeyeah, especially now, where we have a lot of data from different places20:18
nubaemaybe set up a set of specs20:18
LaserJockbrainstorm has a category for Edubuntu (only has 1 idea in it right now) and a Education category20:18
LaserJockbeautiful, we don't even need to create anything20:19
nubaeLaserJock: where is it?20:20
Ahmucki've always held the postition that simple apps don't get in the way of learning20:20
nubaeright, like multiplication tables... that can be customised based on what they already know, or which student is at what level...20:20
LaserJockand then http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education/20:20
nubaeits about using computers to help the existing learning process20:20
nubaeok, bookmarked both locations20:21
LaserJockyeah, this is making some good sense here20:22
nubaethe project in location one is also mentioned in location 220:22
nubaeso probably better to put the ideas there20:22
LaserJockwe can even use brainstorm for "please use app X" stuff20:22
nubaethe other thing they mentioned was that the simplest UIs, like sugar, with no clutter on the screen are the most wanted and best understood by the kids20:23
nubaejust the basic basic framework and the content20:23
LaserJockwould depend on the age I guess20:24
nubaeyes true, we were talking about younger ages20:24
nubaefrom 6-1120:24
LaserJocka high school student is likely to want the "adult" interface rather than the "kiddy" version ;-)20:24
nubaebut even then, from a learning perspective they said that the simpler the interface, the more they learn, as tested20:25
nubaeu can make something look adult and not cluttered too I suppose20:25
nubaeand of course a common look and feel across apps20:26
nubaethats a difficult one of course20:26
LaserJockeven adults work better without a lot of clutter20:28
LaserJockthe problem is the balance between clutter and useful features20:28
nubaeyep, its  shame we can't design a common framework for every app creator to use20:29
nubaesomething that has been usability tested by teachers20:29
LaserJockthat's a nice dream20:30
LaserJockthe reality is that "usability" can be quite different to different people20:30
nubaeyeah but right now the people doing the usability are the developers themselves20:31
nubaethat has to change20:31
LaserJockand "common frameworks" can often stifle creativity and just flat out are unlikely in such a diverse "ecosystem"20:31
LaserJockno, it doesn't20:31
LaserJockdevelopers are mostly great people who care deeply about their users and their programs20:32
LaserJockthey often don't do a lot of usability testing and so rely on others20:32
nubaeyes, but they are not connected to their users20:32
LaserJockoften times they are20:32
LaserJockbut that's what our job is20:32
LaserJockto help them connect20:32
LaserJockthere's a pretty fuzzy line where user and developer meet20:32
nubaenot user... I'm talking about teacher20:33
LaserJockI know lots of developers who are also educators20:33
nubaewell, the majority are not... for sure...20:33
nubaeat least not for the sugar activities20:33
LaserJockwell, that's sugar20:33
nubaeyeah but its common for other apps, since most have been ports to sugar20:33
LaserJockof the actual educational apps I know they are mostly done by educators or the "target audience"20:34
LaserJocksome aren't heavily involved as much anymore20:34
nubaewell, I'll write up my findings and we can discuss it more :-)20:34
LaserJockbut most people write educational apps because they're educators20:34
nubaeI guess it has to do with the changing of the IT landscape20:35
LaserJockI think a lot of educators think developers are very out of touch20:35
nubaemany apps were written 10 years ago, and didnt think about multiple users and usability20:35
LaserJockwhen in fact they really aren't so much20:35
nubaewell, I think educators have a point20:35
nubaeI really saw what they meant today20:36
LaserJockbecause developers don't make the app the way they want them too?20:36
nubaewell for one, they dont allow apps to be customised to different students20:36
nubaeto allow for a teacher view20:36
LaserJockok, but that says *nothing* about the developer20:36
nubaethese are simple things, which all apps should really have20:36
LaserJockmost of the time developers are hacking in their spare time to get something vaguely usable20:37
nubaeI'm just saying a dev doesnt think like an educator20:37
LaserJocksure they do20:37
sbalneavnubae: Gnome, I know for sure, hires "usability" consultants to review and make suggestions20:37
LaserJockthe problem is that it's very very difficult to give everybody everything20:37
nubaeI'm not talking about gnome, I'm talking about education apps20:37
LaserJockso you make due with what you can get and hope to build from there20:38
LaserJocknubae: but many of the edu apps are a part of the Gnome landscape20:38
LaserJockalso take KDE Edu, an official core part of KDE20:38
nubaereally? which edu app is actually part of the gnome core?20:38
nubaekde, I agree20:38
LaserJocknubae: I didn't say gnome core20:38
LaserJockbut gcompris, for instance, is hosted and supported by Gnome20:38
nubaekde is much more involved in edu20:39
LaserJockbut my point is20:39
LaserJockjust because an app isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean the devs are stupid or out of touch20:39
nubaeyeah well I presented gcompris today... and the immediate questions were, where can I customise the activities, store students scores, change layouts20:39
nubaeI didnt say they are stupid20:39
nubaeI said they think differently20:39
LaserJockI know from first hand experience that often times you have to code what you can for today20:39
nubaeand thats great20:39
LaserJockright, and I don't think that's they case with most edu apps at all20:40
nubaeI am in no way saying devs do a bad job20:40
nubaeI'm saying they could do with more input from teachers20:40
LaserJockI think most edu app devs do think like educators because they *are* educators often enough20:40
LaserJockfor sure20:40
sbalneavWhy aren't the teachers providing input, then?20:40
nubaewell, thats what we're trying to change20:40
LaserJockthe problem I'm afraid of is that people will think that input is all that is needed20:40
LaserJockinput is only part of the problem20:41
nubaethey believe devs are unapproachable I suppose, I'm not really sure what the answer to that question is20:41
LaserJockthe other part, the bigger part, is getting resources (hands and minds) to get things implemented20:41
nubaeanyway, the teachers and educators I spoke to today asked how they could get involved20:41
LaserJockthat's great20:41
nubaeand that is where we can help them20:41
LaserJockyes, exactly20:41
nubaeso I told them mailing lists are the way to go20:42
LaserJockthat's exactly what KDE is looking for20:42
sbalneavnubae: Devs have provided: 1) Mailing lists, 2) irc channels, 3) wiki pages 4) bug reporting sites 5) conferences to show up at, and 6) in some cases (mine, anyway) *phone numbers* to phone.20:42
LaserJockthe particular area that needs help is the non-educational app area20:42
nubaesbalneav: I'm not arguing against that, I know, and I have offered the same level of support20:42
LaserJockas you're not likely to find many educators working on the core desktop20:42
nubaebut in many cases these guys don't even know what a mailing list is20:43
nubaeso they gradually need to step into the ballgame...20:43
nubaehaving face meets, for example works...20:44
nubaeand then get them on mailing lists and explain all the different methods of support20:44
sbalneavWe've had educators at edubuntu conferences.20:44
LaserJockbrainstorm could really help20:44
nubaeyeah, that of course is great20:44
sbalneavI talked PERSONALLY with one of them, asked her for some input.20:44
sbalneavI was told "too busy"20:44
nubaewell, thats one... I was given AMAZING input today... 6 hours worth of great feedback, and I'll write it up so we can take a look at how it can help20:45
sbalneavI'm not blaming educators, BTW, but saying "devs need to be more in touch with educators" is a two way street.20:45
LaserJockthere is that development bottleneck20:46
LaserJockit's so much easier to think of ideas than to implement them ;-)20:46
dgroosAnd, how does one decide which to focus on?20:47
sbalneavyou can have all the face-to-faces you want, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE's got to be willing to churn out some code.20:47
nubaedgroos: we need to focus on both20:47
LaserJockdgroos: you mean from the ideas we get?20:47
nubaewell, these guys are willing to pay devs to get it done20:47
nubaeand that to me showed they really wanted to commit20:48
nubaethat and they wanted to know where they could communicate their ideas20:48
LaserJockright so what we need is somebody on this end to catch20:49
dgroosLaserJock:  I mean,  "for the lack of a nail the battle was lost"20:49
nubaeanyway, I came away with a very positive feeling... these teachers and educators were the ones doing pedagogical research20:49
nubaebasically this is a school here that is a testbed for teaching ideas and then implements in the rest of teh country20:49
sbalneavnubae: How much?  My current salary's 75k cdn/year.20:50
nubaeI dont know if they have that over there20:50
nubaebut they must20:50
dgroosnubae: can you say who these educators were?20:50
nubaesbalneav: I'm pretty sure the budgets here are no different than the budgets over there20:50
dgroosI mean, what city? What school? Affiliated with some university a research program?20:51
nubaeI just explained... they were teachers that are researching in a practical environment methods of teaching that are then to be implemented in the rest of the country by the government20:51
nubaeGraz, Austria, affiliated with the TU Graz20:51
nubaetechnical university of graz20:51
nubaecalled the pedagogiches hochschule20:52
nubaethey are trying to do what they can in terms of funding and paving the way forwards, and I for one, would like to make that easy for them20:53
LaserJockso I think brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education is a great place to send people20:54
nubaewould be great if there was a place a bit more upstream20:55
nubaenot so linked to just ubuntu20:55
nubaebut I guess the infrastructure is already in place here...20:55
dgroosIs there some place that serves to coordinate information--ie think systematically about advancing edubuntu?20:56
LaserJockthe problem is then you have a bunch of upstreams20:56
LaserJockall with different communication channels, etc.20:56
nubaeyeah maybe from here we can send it upstream20:56
dgroosThat for me has been confusing...20:56
LaserJocknubae: exactly20:57
LaserJockwe gotta "filter" and send upstream20:57
LaserJockdgroos: hmm, describe a bit more what you mean20:57
LaserJockdo you mean like how do we get things done?20:58
nubaeupstream = gnome /kde/sugar, and upstream from that, the apps themselves20:58
dgroosTo successfully implement edubuntu in a class you need to address different groups of tasks.  for example20:59
LaserJocknubae: yup, we have probably something around 30 different upstreams just for the stuff in Main20:59
dgroosget hardware running20:59
dgroosget LAN/Server set up and working20:59
sbalneavdgroos: Well, the edubuntu wiki, or probably even more accurately, the edubuntu-devel mailing list.21:00
sbalneavdgroos: There is an edubuntu handbook, which I, and others, have put in work on, and are still working on.21:00
nubaedgroos: well, that has actually been taken care of quite well, the hardware maintenance side, and OS side... its the higher layers that are bit more lacking in terms of communication21:00
dgroosget to know general software such as sabayon (I'm wishing) and iTalc21:01
dgroosfigure out how to best pedagogically use this stuff--21:01
nubaeand I'm not attacking devs, as much as it might sound like that... I'm just emphasising the need for the people in the middle... the communicators... us21:01
LaserJockdgroos: in some sense from my end it's a bit like getting the cart before the horse21:03
Ahmucki'm an adult and sometimes the kids version of a desktop is just what i need during a stresfull day:21:03
dgroosSometimes, the job can seem overwhelming (I'm using spare time and have been working at getting thisk working for a few months--remember, I'm quite a Linux newbie21:03
LaserJockI haven't thought much on how to document the pedagogical us of sabayon because it's completely broken :-)21:03
nubaecase in point21:03
LaserJockmy primary concern is that every release we are quite close to *not* having a release21:04
LaserJockit's just the nature of things21:04
sbalneavWhich I'm desperately trying to fix because upstreams DOA21:04
nubaesbalneav: very cool... its a highly sought after app21:04
LaserJockand it's not that I/we don't care, we just have to prioritize our effort21:04
sbalneavWell sure it is.21:04
sbalneavBut, to beat that horse a bit further...21:04
sbalneavWe can all have IDEAS about sabayon, and TALK about sabayon, and write down INFORMATION about sabayon, and consult with EDUCATORS about sabayon...21:05
sbalneavbut until some one like me scrapes together the time to FIX sabayon, it don't mean squat.21:05
sbalneavWelcome to Free Software21:06
sbalneavLots of ideas, few coders.21:06
LaserJockand it's not even strictly coders21:06
LaserJockwe certainly need them21:07
dgroosAnd that's my point about having some central strategy to help people decide where to put their limited time.21:07
LaserJockbut a lot of packaging work can be done without having programming knowledge21:07
LaserJockwe also need artists, doc writers, website maintainers, support people, etc.21:07
dgroosand I apologize if it's out there and I don't know about it...21:07
LaserJockbut bottom line we need to be moving forward21:07
nubaeeducation as a whole needs people from all fields, and yes, we are all aware things tend to be done for free in this area, but what can we do about that?21:07
LaserJockdgroos: no, I think you make a good point21:08
LaserJockdgroos: I think this might help a little https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument21:08
LaserJocknubae: well, I personally think we need to grow Edubuntu developers21:09
dgroosI'll check it now!  is this the one you referred to in your blog post about the last meeting?  If so that's right, I saw it and it is good.21:09
nubaeoh nice, thats grown...21:09
LaserJockwe need to get people willing to learn how to package21:09
nubaeLaserJock: u said it well some time ago... a edubuntu contributor today, could be a developer tomorrow21:09
LaserJockwe need people who are willing to take a little time to learn how to do a patch21:10
nubaeare the launchpad groups under your control yet?21:11
LaserJockright now I'm just looking for contributors21:11
LaserJockwell, I created the edubuntu-dev LP team21:11
LaserJockbut the other teams are going to take some work21:11
LaserJockIMO, we need to first figure out the Edubuntu Council21:12
dgroosYes, great page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument)21:13
LaserJockdgroos: it's still not finished (my bad) but getting there21:13
LaserJockdgroos: does that sort of help?21:13
dgroosYes--I'd like to contribute to it.  Is that permitted?21:14
LaserJockwe really need to get some Edubuntu Members, it's almost just the Edubuntu Council right now :/21:14
nubaedgroos: its encouraged...21:15
LaserJockdgroos: how about we discuss it here21:15
dgroosLaserJock: sure21:15
dgroosIt's very nicely organized. And very comprehensive.21:17
nubaetomorrow I have another meeting, this time with a highschool, so older students... are there any questions u can think of that I should ask?21:19
LaserJockare they already using Linux at all?21:20
nubaeno, but they use some FOSS like moodle21:20
nubaeso they are open and interested in Linux21:20
nubaeI will not be presenting sugar to them, just edubuntu and ltsp21:21
LaserJockI'm fairly interested in what apps they do use, and what their biggest struggles are with their current setup21:21
nubaeok, thats a good point, so what win apps they currently use for education?21:21
LaserJockI'd like to see how well we can match what they're using21:22
dgroosLaserJock: Looking at the contents overview -- the structure of the document that on the upper right hand side of the page...21:22
LaserJockone specific question I have is if they would find it useful if they could run the same apps at home21:22
nubaecool... I dont know how much sense it makes to present the apps, but I'd like to choose a couple21:22
nubaeI think I know the answer to that one, it would be yes...21:22
dgroosLaserJock: I'm thinking of sections 1, 2 and 3 as part of the strategy document.21:23
nubaeI guess the kde-edu suite makes most sense to present, no?21:23
LaserJockI've though, for instance, if you made a reasonably easy way to make custom CDs that a highschool teacher could give out21:23
nubaeor usb sticks so they are persistent21:24
LaserJocknubae: for high school? perhaps, depends on what areas21:24
LaserJocklike there is a lot of great math software available21:24
LaserJockmarble, step, and kalzium from KDE would be cool to demo21:24
nubaewell we need one for each of the major subjects...21:24
LaserJockthat'd be geography, physics, and chemistry21:24
LaserJockI never cared much for english so I don't know there ;-)21:25
dgroosLaserJock: 4, 5 and 6 seem to be structural aspects of the organization?21:25
LaserJockI guess it wouldn't really be "english" there but languages21:25
nubaewell its a German school so would be a little irrelevant :-)21:25
LaserJockdgroos: right yeah, first our strategy and then how we organize ourselves to implement it21:26
nubaeLaserJock: what else?21:26
LaserJockfor the math people wxmaxima is pretty cool21:27
LaserJocknot in Main but a good app21:27
nubaeI'll install and take a look21:27
dgroosLaserJock: could they be on different pages, and connected at a less-detailed view on a higher level page?21:28
nubaeand other questions to ask them?21:28
LaserJocknubae: "wanna do some coding?" ;-)21:28
dgroosLaserJock: and thus allow for more expanded detail on strategy?21:28
nubaesome of these apps pull in a lot of dependencies... 62mb for wxmaxima21:28
LaserJocknubae: you want good apps, you need lots of deps ;-)21:29
nubaeif they said yes to the coding, would there be someone to mentor them?21:29
nubaeI was asked that today in fact...21:29
LaserJockI think we can hook them up21:29
LaserJockwe can sort of work like an employment agency :-)21:30
LaserJockif people want to do packaging I'm happy to help with that21:30
LaserJockbut as far as coding on apps I'm not in a place where I can do that directly21:30
LaserJockbut I know lots and lots of people :-)21:30
nubaemaybe if we could document that, list of coding mentors21:31
LaserJockdgroos: I think we could possibly do that if the strategy detail got to be too much21:31
LaserJockdgroos: at this point I'm trying to keep it fairly non-detailed because I'm trying to give an overview21:31
LaserJockdgroos: one option might be to create very detailed pages for each of the strategy objectives and areas of focus separately21:32
dgroosRight.  This *is* the overview!21:32
dgroosWell, for sure that is needed.  Also, I was thinking of a medium detail page21:32
LaserJocknubae: I'm really wary of listing people21:33
LaserJockI've been burned a lot by putting people's names on websites/wikis and then the list never gets updated21:33
nubaethen how can I ask if they want to code?21:33
LaserJockI tend to think that point people at mailing lists is the best way to go21:33
nubaewell, u have my word that I will update it21:33
nubaeas I am doing with the edubuntu site21:33
LaserJockthe problem is that I think there's a lot of different places to go21:34
LaserJockI'd rather customize a response than just point people to a list21:34
nubaewell, we should list them... we need to funnel these people to the right places21:34
LaserJockwhat languages do they know, what kinds of apps are they looking for, etc.21:34
nubaein this case German21:34
LaserJockedubuntu-devel would be a good place21:34
LaserJockI meant programming languages, but that's a good point as well21:35
nubae:-) ok, well I would recommend python to them21:35
nubaetoday they mentioned java to me21:35
nubaethey said they knew java coders21:35
nubaeI told them python is easier and better for linux21:35
LaserJockwell I'm not a big Java fan but it's better than nothing I guess ;-)21:35
nubaethere is a java to python converter somewhere is there not?21:36
LaserJockwell, you can use Jython21:36
nubaeis that a good way to go?21:36
nubaejava is the main language they learn here at uni u see21:37
LaserJockit's a python interpreter writting in Java, it allows you to sort of mix Java and python21:37
LaserJockJava is huge in education21:37
LaserJockstupid Sun ;-)21:37
nubaewhat are most of the apps currently coded in?21:37
LaserJockwell, I guess depending on what they wanted to do I wouldn't necessarily turn them away from Java21:37
LaserJocksome python21:38
nubaewell at least its not visual basic21:38
LaserJockdoesn't matter a ton really as long as they use a Free java21:38
nubaethat they code in I mean21:38
LaserJockthey could even use .net21:38
nubaeI'm just seeing that somewhere in the chain of events they need guidance21:39
LaserJockthe main thing I'm looking for is some experience with what programming is like21:39
nubaeon how to do stuff in the right procedure21:39
LaserJockme pulls out a "there is no wrong answer"21:39
nubaeok, well I will at least get the coders in these groups to email u, ok?21:39
LaserJockedubuntu-devel is a great resource for people21:40
LaserJockit's not the most active presently but if people start emailing stuff like "how can I help" I *will* respond21:40
LaserJockand hopefully others will too21:40
nubaewell, u have to think that these are education guys coming from a total windows background21:40
nubaeI dont know how comfortable they'll be jumping into the deep end21:41
LaserJockit's not so deep though21:41
LaserJockwe'll be gentle ;-)21:41
LaserJockjust tell them to send a little intro of themselves and the things they are interested in21:42
nubaeok, so edubuntu-devel for contributors, edubuntu-users for those wanting to get involved but not coding/packaging21:42
LaserJockedubuntu-devel for any getting involved period21:42
LaserJockedubuntu-users is for user support21:42
LaserJockI'd like to avoid messing it up too much with "internal" stuff21:42
LaserJock"development" == everything that goes into make Edubuntu happen21:43
nubaeI still think that word -devel in there is frightening21:43
LaserJockart, docs, wiki, packaging, etc.21:43
nubaewish we had a better word21:43
LaserJockI think it's a great word, we just need to get rid of the adversion to it21:43
LaserJockit's beautiful that just about *anybody* can come to a -devel list and get lots of help and feel a part of a team21:44
LaserJockand they can "own" a bit of the operating system they're using21:44
dgroosLaserJock: I never knew that!21:44
nubaesee ^^21:44
LaserJockdgroos: and now you know21:45
LaserJockhow do you think developers become developers? they weren't born that way21:45
dgroosI always figured that dev was for the developers and peons such as myself would waste their time.21:45
LaserJockI was just a chemistry student messing around with a chemistry app21:45
nubaedgroos most people think that, unfortunately21:45
LaserJockthen one day I found a bug and thought I'd see if somebody could fix it21:46
dgroosBy definition, is a developer someone who writes code?21:46
LaserJockno, not at all21:46
nubaeshouldnt be, but its often portrayed as that21:46
LaserJockI'm not a programmer and I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer21:46
dgroosSo, it's like a person that's dedicated to a project...?21:46
nubaebut I guess I am a developer, u are a developer too... anyone on this channel is a dev really21:47
LaserJocktraditionally we use it more for the technical bits of things21:47
dgroosIs that true in communities such as plone, do you know?21:47
nubaeLaserJock is definitly more dev than I21:47
dgroosor just mainly ubuntu?21:47
LaserJockwell, Ubuntu in general is a bit friendlier and looser about that kind of thing21:47
LaserJockit's also very different because we are a distro21:48
LaserJockif you take plone the product they are trying to put out is plone21:48
LaserJockwhich is code primarily21:48
LaserJockwith documenation and some artwork21:48
LaserJockin Ubuntu though we're software distributors essentially21:49
nubaepretty bad wiki entry actually21:49
LaserJockso our "product" is made by putting together, integrating, and polishing other people's products21:49
nubaethats a better one21:49
nubaein line with Laserjocks definition21:49
LaserJockwhich has quite a bit more non-programming tasks21:50
LaserJockfor me personally21:50
nubaeA person or entity engaged in the creation or improvement of certain classes of products.21:50
LaserJockthere's sort of different level's of "developer"21:50
LaserJockthe most specific meaning is anybody who can upload packages to Ubuntu repositories21:51
LaserJockthat is the MOTU and Core Developers21:51
nubaewhich essentially means we have no sugar developers on board :-)21:51
nubaesince non of them are motu21:51
LaserJockin that sense ogra, stgraber, nixternal, and myself are the only ones in this room21:52
LaserJockoh, and bddebian, can't for get him ;-)21:52
LaserJockbut I'll also often use "developer" to mean "a dedicated contributor of any type"21:53
nubaethe elite-developers21:53
LaserJock*but* the most important thing is21:53
dgroosMOTU hmmm... means island or to sever in Maori, and island in Tahitian...21:53
nubaemasters of the universe21:53
LaserJockedubuntu-devel is meant for discussing edubuntu's development, not as a "developer-only" clubhouse21:53
dgroosnubae: thanks21:53
LaserJockdgroos: it comes from a cartoon in the 80's called He-Man21:54
nubaethey probably have some secret list just for them ;-)21:54
nixternalbddebian: counts? boo21:54
dgroosI remember that :-)21:54
LaserJockUbuntu have very very few secret lists, and those are only because of privacy concerns or embargo's21:55
sbalneavLaserJock: Crumb, I'm here at work.... got that link to the bug fix you pointed to yesterday?21:55
sbalneavfor Sabayon?21:56
LaserJocksbalneav: sure, one sec21:56
sbalneavI'm on irc.gnome.org in the #sabayon channel now.21:56
LaserJocksbalneav: http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=sabayon21:56
LaserJockoh, anybody there?21:56
sbalneavjohnny from #ltsp's there.  He apparently knows federico, and can set up a meeting.21:57
LaserJockdgroos: so feel free to join the edubuntu-devel mailing list :-)21:57
sbalneavWe'll see if we can get the electric boogaloo going.21:57
nubaeLaserJock: what happened to the discussion about universe apps?21:58
LaserJocknubae: what about it?21:58
nubaewe should make a decision on what to put in it for Jaunty, no?21:58
LaserJockgive me lists :-)21:58
nubaeI did21:58
nubaeor u mean seeded lists21:58
LaserJockyou gave me lists?21:59
nubaeu commented on the apps too21:59
nubaeor u want that cut down based on your comments?21:59
dgroosLaserJock: thanks for the invite and I've already joined it, just wasn't sure how I fit in--now I've got a better idea :-)22:00
LaserJocknubae: I was just commenting on getting those into Main22:01
LaserJockfor Universe we can do whatever we want22:01
nubaeI know, and then I mentioned it was for universe22:01
LaserJockso a list of like 10-20 apps per category would be good22:02
LaserJocksky's the limit22:02
nubaeper category, really?22:02
LaserJockwhy not?22:02
LaserJockthey're freebies22:02
nubaewell I thought we still have to recommend them somehow22:02
nubaecant just put everything on that list, right?22:02
LaserJockwe can, and we can put a watch on them to try to make sure their updated22:02
LaserJockso we can't go super crazy22:03
LaserJockbut the idea is to fill out the list of apps with stuff that's great and people want, but can't make it into Main22:03
LaserJockwe can watch their bugs and versions22:03
LaserJockmake sure they get updated, etc. but not huge amounts of effort22:04
nubaeah, k... but then maybe we should grow it... start with something tested in Jaunty22:04
nubaeie... programs we have actually openned and looked at22:04
LaserJockI'm just saying if it's in Universe we can do it22:06
LaserJockso have fun22:07
LaserJockif edubuntu-devel wants to figure out lists of apps I'll do the technical work22:07
LaserJockI just don't have a lot of time to go through *all* the apps myself, you know22:07
nubaewell I have a feeling it will be me posting the list22:07
LaserJockmaybe to start with22:08
LaserJockwe could maybe send an email to edubuntu-users asking for the apps in universe people use most22:08
LaserJockthen hash out in edubuntu-devel the actual list22:08
nubaeyeh I'll write it again and cc -users22:09
nubaeshould I put in sugar apps too?22:10
LaserJockI think perhaps not22:11
LaserJocksince I they sort of already have their own metapackag thing going on22:11
LaserJock*since they22:12
LaserJockif people want sure it's fairly easy for them to find it22:12
LaserJockespecially if it shows up in Add/Remove22:12
nubaethe problem is, half the apps suck or dont work22:12
nubaebut its still the best choice for kiddies pre 10 years of age22:13
LaserJockhopefully it'll get better with time here22:15
dgroosI've got a printing question...22:15
dgroosI haven't been able to set up a network printer on my ltsp lan22:16
dgroosI tried the #ltsp channel a few nights ago and tried their idea. but I think the problem is at a basic level22:16
dgroosI think my network settings have a probably simple error in them--22:17
dgroossimple to 'one who knows'...22:17
dgroosI've uploaded 9 screen shots of different, and I think applicable screens onto a picasa album22:18
dgrooshere: http://picasaweb.google.com/djgroos/PrintingIssue?feat=directlink22:18
dgroosCan someone help point out a problem with settings?22:19
dgroosI brought my server home this weekend so I could actually check things out...22:20
LaserJockI gotta run to Walmart, bbiab22:22
dgroosLaserJock: thanks again for your support!22:22
LaserJockphew, back23:48
HedgeMagewb, LaserJock23:49
HedgeMageHow's life?23:49
LaserJockkinda hectic23:51

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