[02:26] hi, all [02:26] just wondering how things are going toward using sugar and ejabberd for collaboration between thin clients [02:27] I read nubae's howto on both, but I don't know how to get there from here [04:13] * nothingman is wondering which would be better for virtualization on fat clients, virtualbox ose or qemu [04:15] hmm, might depend on what you're doing [04:15] why are you wanting to do it on the client? [04:21] hey LaserJock [04:21] someone regressed your sugar commit [04:22] "regressed"? [04:22] I've been battling with the damn thing for over 2 hours now, and realised that a new package is out, which once again breaks browse! [04:22] ah [04:22] it at least seems that way [04:22] is that on Intrepid? [04:22] yeah [04:22] and jaunty [04:23] well jaunty has bigger problems, depends on python-xpcom 1.9, which isn't packaged yet [04:23] do u have a ppa with your package? [04:24] well, kinda [04:24] anybody with a Launchpad account has a PPA available [04:25] I'm happy with just the 2 debs :-) [04:26] hmm, I wonder what we can do about this [04:26] I need a fix in the next 30 minutes... so I think just overwriting with .debs is my option at this point [04:28] well, you could try building your own .deb [04:28] LaserJock: because my servers are ram-maxed towers [04:29] nothingman: ah, and why do you need virtualization? [04:29] nubae: actually, I think you might be able to just symlink it for now [04:30] well, it would be nice to take these laptops without HDs, but *with* XP licenses, and boot whatever so the students can use all the software that's accumulated over the last decade or so [04:30] I see [04:30] I wonder how well that'd work [04:30] yeah [04:31] u released 0.4.6-0ubuntu2 right? [04:31] we got to try the Fiddlehead for a bit, and that was nifty [04:32] it's a Linux distro with VirtualBox and multiseat set up so that it's easy to add video cards and usb peripherals to make more seats and boot any x86 OS [04:33] and I thought: why not try it with ltsp? [04:33] after all, I would have a dedicated CPU for each instance of Vbox+OS [04:33] * LaserJock kicks rmadison [04:34] nubae: the "fixed" version is 0.4.6-0ubuntu2.1 [04:34] which hasn't been released yet [04:36] I mean, a gig of ram for one fiddlehead server with two seats runs XP pretty well [04:37] well its not in -proposed anymore then [04:37] nubae: it should be in -proposed [04:37] its not [04:38] hmmm, odd [04:42] ah wait, I have python-hulahop_0.4.6-0ubuntu3~ppa1_i386.deb [04:42] ah [04:42] apt-cache show gives all the instances of a package [04:42] not just the latest installed [04:42] yeah [04:43] you can look at apt-cache policy as well [04:44] ah nice one... [04:45] well got 2.1 installed on my laptop and browse does not work [04:46] I dont get it [04:47] do you have /usr/lib/xulrunner-1.9.0.5/ ? [04:48] 0.3 [04:49] oh, that's not right [04:50] whats the package name? [04:50] strange cause I installed sugar* [04:50] xulrunner-1.9 [04:51] its 0.3 for Intrepid but 0.5 for intrepid-updates [04:51] strange it didnt install [04:52] can you get it? [04:53] yep... that fixed it, thanks LaserJock, u save my ass :-) [04:54] that's why they pay me the big bucks :-) [04:54] btw, it sounds like some pretty big things are going to be happening in KDE for education [04:58] :D [04:59] that is good news! [04:59] I wanted put an ubuntu distro on my nix hd but I might as well just wait for jaunty [04:59] Aaron Seigo seems to be really taking education serious [05:00] we had a fairly lengthy chat today about what KDE can do for educators and how we can better link educators and developers [05:01] I told him I really would like to see effort on user management and settings control [05:01] nice [05:02] so perhaps kiosktool will get some revamping, amongst other things [05:03] anyway, I'll be trying to get input from educators and school IT people on what they need [05:03] and hopefully we can translate that into directing some KDE efforts upstream [05:19] having KDE4 to actually work on LTSP would be cool ltoo :) [05:19] I believe someone at Revolution Linux sent Aaron an email about that [05:20] stgraber: what's wrong with it? [05:21] first session open time takes over 30s because of a khotkey bug, ltspfs (usb key, cdrom, ...) doesn't work because kde4 doesn't scan /media/*/* for new directories, things like switch user/reboot/shutdown/sleep/hibernate are present even when not possible [05:21] KDE4 doesn't use pulseaudio when PULSE_SERVER is set [05:22] moving to a large resolution to a small resolution doesn't resize the panel, ... [05:22] stgraber: ah great, good to know [05:22] stgraber: that'll be important to bring up [05:22] oh and my favorite, all windows appear as random video junk and then are refreshed a few ms later with the actual content [05:23] and there is also no way to turn these plasmoids off so when you don't have hardware accelaration it just does it with software rendering [05:23] so moving the desktop plasmoid takes "just" 100Mb/s :) [05:24] hmm [05:24] (and makes low-cost thin clients like geodes to crash) [12:59] tem alguem que fale em portugues? [13:45] Morning all [17:20] *yawn*. good morning [17:21] Morning! [19:10] За что, [19:10] !edubuntu [19:10] Edubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative aimed at schools and educational institutions. For more info, see http://www.edubuntu.org [19:12] Помогут мне? [19:14] I don't think anyone here speaks russian. [19:15] Too bad there's no bot scripts that does auto translation via babelfish or something for IRC [19:16] a931bw: Никто здесь говорит русского [19:16] That's from babelfish [19:16] lol...nm [19:17] Yeah, but I manually translated it. [19:17] Промазал [19:17] sorry [19:21] An interesting meme in #ltsp is "do the needful", which is how babelfish translates "help me please" in either Portugese or Spanish. So people coming into #ltsp and using babelfish for translation often "say" this. [19:22] So it's become a bit of a "joke phrase" within the LTSP community. [19:22] I.e. "yeah, lets fix this bug, so we can 'do the needful'"... or "Could you do the needful, and pass me the steak sauce", etc. [19:23] That, and one of the most famous phrases in LTSP: "what means 'LTSP rocks'?" [19:24] sbalneav: do the needful and tell me what 'LTSP rocks' mean pls [19:24] Someone was directed to the LTSP mailing list, who wasn't an english speaker, and came backm after reading a post where someone said 'LTSP rocks!', and asked that in the channel. [19:25] LTSP скалы! [19:25] So, it's become another "in joke" within LTSP. [19:25] and it made it into the scripts too, heh [19:25] As in: "what means 'Lns rocks'?" etc. [19:26] Two little bits of LTSP apocrophia there. [19:26] hehe, I'm so in with the ltsp crowd now... being cool, hangin out by the stick... [19:27] Whoops, I should have spelled that Apocrypha [19:28] Or, απόκρυφα (since we're talking about internationalization... :)) [19:28] Yeah, now you know the secret phrases and handshakes, all you need to do is cultivate a love of beer and lobster, and you're in like flynn [19:29] Heh... lets see how that lobster logo fares [19:29] LTSP has always been more about fun than code. Thank heavens. [19:30] Well I already love beer and lobster, so I guess I need my membership card ;) [19:49] I actually like to think LTSP is one of the last "big" (in terms of number of people using it) Free Software project that's sort of stayed true to it's roots. No big flashy .org running it, no non profit, no paid spokesperson, etc. Just a rag-tag bunch of misfits having a good time. [19:56] sbalneav: that's why I think I like it so much too (besides the technology keeps to the roots of X and expands on it) [19:57] it seems that nobody wants to reinvent the wheel so to speak, but keep to the 'best practices' of coding, etc.. which is really nice, especially for someone just getting into programming, etc. [19:57] That's why I love linux so much.. there are tools available that do pretty much everything, you just need to know how to tie them all together...LTSP is the perfect example of doing this [20:00] afternoon all [20:00] hi dgroos [20:00] hey LaserJock [20:01] hi LaserJock [20:01] also, hi Lns [20:01] hi Baby [20:01] hey dgroos [20:01] * Ahmuck just waves to everyone [20:02] yeah [20:02] ditto [20:02] Lns: you're Jordan, yeah? [20:02] greets [20:02] dgroos: yeah, we have 2 of them and our nicks both start with "L" :-) [20:02] dgroos: yep, one of em ;) [20:03] and actually we don't live that far away either, very odd ;-) [20:03] hi!! :) [20:03] Lns: recall that I sent you an e-mail a week ago thinking you were the Jordan of Edubuntu-menus? [20:03] LaserJock: it's a sign.. we must create a directional 802.11 network between us! [20:03] Small world! [20:03] dgroos: yes! That's actually LaserJock [20:04] Lns: u should change your nick to beamgeek [20:04] Lns: right! I figured that out a few days ago on this very channel. [20:04] hehe [20:04] nubae: umm, no. =p [20:05] maybe /nick TheRealJordan =p [20:05] heh [20:06] LaserJock: That's been quite a ride since the publishing of your last blog entry. From getting a hit or few a day, I all of a sudden got 300 over 4 days. [20:06] dgroos: yeah, digg will do that [20:07] I got around 5k I think [20:07] Got me to wanting to improve the looks: http://groosd.blogspot.com [20:07] You also got 31 comments! [20:08] yeah [20:09] funny how the relation of readers to commenters is about 500:1 [20:09] well maybe 300:1 [20:09] I've spent my flex time these last few days trying to update my blog. I also got inspired to update the (very) stale Ubuntu project pages. [20:10] 226:1 for me [20:10] dgroos: which ubuntu project pages are you updating? [20:11] Lns: Hmmm maybe I should rephrase that and say that's I updated MY project pages on the Ubuntu wiki :-) [20:11] For example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ManageGroups [20:12] i've a question about ubuntu. there is so much documentation out there, community pages, etc. that i find it impossible to wade throught he mess sometimes [20:12] Ahmuck: agreed [20:12] I had a good talk with education specialists and teachers today... [20:12] dgroos: nice [20:12] Its so important to get a view from them, as it is SO different from what developers implement [20:13] nubae: agreed [20:13] the main thing they want is good admin parts to activities [20:13] nubae: that's precisely what aseigo of KDE wants [20:13] and the possibility of collaboration [20:13] Lns: thanks. here's another: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ComputerLab [20:13] i've found that many times devs have a disconnect between the people they think they are helping, and then get upset when the users speak up [20:13] I spent 6 hours listening to their ideas [20:14] I'll be writing it up... but it was very much about sugar and collaboration [20:14] nubae: the school techs I've talked with seem very excited about me implementing a simple wiki for teachers to use for central bookmarks, content for students, etc. [20:14] Ahmuck: it can depend a lot from project to project [20:14] though everyone agreed, sugar is not ready yet [20:14] nubae: who were these educators/teachers? [20:14] nubae: about sugar and collaboration because that's what your focused on? [20:14] yeah, they really want simplicity with working activities before anything [20:14] nubae: Please post to the list when you get it written up...i'm sure it would be pure gold [20:14] they spoke about maths activities that could be customised per student [20:15] where teh teacher could collect data at teh end of the lesson in an admin panel [20:15] and being able to customise the content per class too [20:15] it really made a lot of sense [20:15] but yeah I'll write it up and post to the list [20:15] nubae: sounds like a job for a nice little central db backend.. [20:16] hmm [20:16] Ahmuck: no, just that thats what teachers are interested in [20:16] they dont want complex elaborate activities [20:16] they want the real simple stuff, but to be managable and customisable [20:16] Might it not be great to put these ideas on the edubuntu/ubuntu wiki? That would allow a bit of a discussion. sort of. [20:16] so THEY choose how to present it to the class [20:17] well, we need to be somewhat careful with how we do all this [20:17] we've already got waaaaay to many wiki pages to maintain [20:17] *too [20:17] idea! [20:17] another really simple idea for example, was a typing tutor, but one where they compete with each other to type a phrase the fastest, compared to the teacher say... and tehn output the results in a common report [20:18] its real simple stuff to implement [20:18] we need to maybe use brainstorm [20:18] yeah, especially now, where we have a lot of data from different places [20:18] maybe set up a set of specs [20:18] brainstorm has a category for Edubuntu (only has 1 idea in it right now) and a Education category [20:19] beautiful, we don't even need to create anything [20:20] LaserJock: where is it? [20:20] i've always held the postition that simple apps don't get in the way of learning [20:20] url [20:20] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/ [20:20] right, like multiplication tables... that can be customised based on what they already know, or which student is at what level... [20:20] and then http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education/ [20:20] its about using computers to help the existing learning process [20:21] ok, bookmarked both locations [20:22] yeah, this is making some good sense here [20:22] the project in location one is also mentioned in location 2 [20:22] so probably better to put the ideas there [20:22] we can even use brainstorm for "please use app X" stuff [20:23] the other thing they mentioned was that the simplest UIs, like sugar, with no clutter on the screen are the most wanted and best understood by the kids [20:23] just the basic basic framework and the content [20:24] would depend on the age I guess [20:24] yes true, we were talking about younger ages [20:24] from 6-11 [20:24] a high school student is likely to want the "adult" interface rather than the "kiddy" version ;-) [20:25] but even then, from a learning perspective they said that the simpler the interface, the more they learn, as tested [20:25] u can make something look adult and not cluttered too I suppose [20:26] and of course a common look and feel across apps [20:26] thats a difficult one of course [20:28] sure [20:28] even adults work better without a lot of clutter [20:28] the problem is the balance between clutter and useful features [20:29] yep, its shame we can't design a common framework for every app creator to use [20:29] something that has been usability tested by teachers [20:30] that's a nice dream [20:30] the reality is that "usability" can be quite different to different people [20:31] yeah but right now the people doing the usability are the developers themselves [20:31] that has to change [20:31] and "common frameworks" can often stifle creativity and just flat out are unlikely in such a diverse "ecosystem" [20:31] no, it doesn't [20:32] developers are mostly great people who care deeply about their users and their programs [20:32] they often don't do a lot of usability testing and so rely on others [20:32] yes, but they are not connected to their users [20:32] often times they are [20:32] but that's what our job is [20:32] to help them connect [20:32] sure [20:32] there's a pretty fuzzy line where user and developer meet [20:33] not user... I'm talking about teacher [20:33] I know lots of developers who are also educators [20:33] well, the majority are not... for sure... [20:33] at least not for the sugar activities [20:33] well, that's sugar [20:33] yeah but its common for other apps, since most have been ports to sugar [20:34] of the actual educational apps I know they are mostly done by educators or the "target audience" [20:34] hmmm [20:34] some aren't heavily involved as much anymore [20:34] well, I'll write up my findings and we can discuss it more :-) [20:34] but most people write educational apps because they're educators [20:35] I guess it has to do with the changing of the IT landscape [20:35] I think a lot of educators think developers are very out of touch [20:35] many apps were written 10 years ago, and didnt think about multiple users and usability [20:35] when in fact they really aren't so much [20:35] well, I think educators have a point [20:36] why? [20:36] I really saw what they meant today [20:36] because developers don't make the app the way they want them too? [20:36] well for one, they dont allow apps to be customised to different students [20:36] to allow for a teacher view [20:36] ok, but that says *nothing* about the developer [20:36] these are simple things, which all apps should really have [20:37] most of the time developers are hacking in their spare time to get something vaguely usable [20:37] I'm just saying a dev doesnt think like an educator [20:37] sure they do [20:37] nubae: Gnome, I know for sure, hires "usability" consultants to review and make suggestions [20:37] the problem is that it's very very difficult to give everybody everything [20:37] I'm not talking about gnome, I'm talking about education apps [20:38] so you make due with what you can get and hope to build from there [20:38] nubae: but many of the edu apps are a part of the Gnome landscape [20:38] also take KDE Edu, an official core part of KDE [20:38] really? which edu app is actually part of the gnome core? [20:38] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/report_main.html [20:38] kde, I agree [20:38] nubae: I didn't say gnome core [20:38] but gcompris, for instance, is hosted and supported by Gnome [20:39] kde is much more involved in edu [20:39] but my point is [20:39] just because an app isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean the devs are stupid or out of touch [20:39] yeah well I presented gcompris today... and the immediate questions were, where can I customise the activities, store students scores, change layouts [20:39] I didnt say they are stupid [20:39] I said they think differently [20:39] I know from first hand experience that often times you have to code what you can for today [20:39] and thats great [20:40] right, and I don't think that's they case with most edu apps at all [20:40] I am in no way saying devs do a bad job [20:40] I'm saying they could do with more input from teachers [20:40] I think most edu app devs do think like educators because they *are* educators often enough [20:40] for sure [20:40] Why aren't the teachers providing input, then? [20:40] well, thats what we're trying to change [20:40] the problem I'm afraid of is that people will think that input is all that is needed [20:41] input is only part of the problem [20:41] they believe devs are unapproachable I suppose, I'm not really sure what the answer to that question is [20:41] the other part, the bigger part, is getting resources (hands and minds) to get things implemented [20:41] anyway, the teachers and educators I spoke to today asked how they could get involved [20:41] that's great [20:41] and that is where we can help them [20:41] yes, exactly [20:42] so I told them mailing lists are the way to go [20:42] that's exactly what KDE is looking for [20:42] nubae: Devs have provided: 1) Mailing lists, 2) irc channels, 3) wiki pages 4) bug reporting sites 5) conferences to show up at, and 6) in some cases (mine, anyway) *phone numbers* to phone. [20:42] the particular area that needs help is the non-educational app area [20:42] sbalneav: I'm not arguing against that, I know, and I have offered the same level of support [20:42] as you're not likely to find many educators working on the core desktop [20:43] but in many cases these guys don't even know what a mailing list is [20:43] so they gradually need to step into the ballgame... [20:44] having face meets, for example works... [20:44] and then get them on mailing lists and explain all the different methods of support [20:44] We've had educators at edubuntu conferences. [20:44] brainstorm could really help [20:44] yeah, that of course is great [20:44] I talked PERSONALLY with one of them, asked her for some input. [20:44] I was told "too busy" [20:45] well, thats one... I was given AMAZING input today... 6 hours worth of great feedback, and I'll write it up so we can take a look at how it can help [20:45] I'm not blaming educators, BTW, but saying "devs need to be more in touch with educators" is a two way street. [20:45] absolutely [20:46] there is that development bottleneck [20:46] it's so much easier to think of ideas than to implement them ;-) [20:46] Right [20:47] And, how does one decide which to focus on? [20:47] you can have all the face-to-faces you want, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE's got to be willing to churn out some code. [20:47] dgroos: we need to focus on both [20:47] dgroos: you mean from the ideas we get? [20:47] well, these guys are willing to pay devs to get it done [20:48] and that to me showed they really wanted to commit [20:48] that and they wanted to know where they could communicate their ideas [20:49] right so what we need is somebody on this end to catch [20:49] LaserJock: I mean, "for the lack of a nail the battle was lost" [20:49] anyway, I came away with a very positive feeling... these teachers and educators were the ones doing pedagogical research [20:49] basically this is a school here that is a testbed for teaching ideas and then implements in the rest of teh country [20:50] nubae: How much? My current salary's 75k cdn/year. [20:50] I dont know if they have that over there [20:50] but they must [20:50] nubae: can you say who these educators were? [20:50] sbalneav: I'm pretty sure the budgets here are no different than the budgets over there [20:51] I mean, what city? What school? Affiliated with some university a research program? [20:51] I just explained... they were teachers that are researching in a practical environment methods of teaching that are then to be implemented in the rest of the country by the government [20:51] Graz, Austria, affiliated with the TU Graz [20:51] technical university of graz [20:52] called the pedagogiches hochschule [20:53] they are trying to do what they can in terms of funding and paving the way forwards, and I for one, would like to make that easy for them [20:53] Excellent. [20:54] so I think brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education is a great place to send people [20:55] would be great if there was a place a bit more upstream [20:55] not so linked to just ubuntu [20:55] but I guess the infrastructure is already in place here... [20:56] well [20:56] Is there some place that serves to coordinate information--ie think systematically about advancing edubuntu? [20:56] the problem is then you have a bunch of upstreams [20:56] all with different communication channels, etc. [20:56] yeah maybe from here we can send it upstream [20:56] That for me has been confusing... [20:57] nubae: exactly [20:57] we gotta "filter" and send upstream [20:57] dgroos: hmm, describe a bit more what you mean [20:58] do you mean like how do we get things done? [20:58] upstream = gnome /kde/sugar, and upstream from that, the apps themselves [20:59] To successfully implement edubuntu in a class you need to address different groups of tasks. for example [20:59] nubae: yup, we have probably something around 30 different upstreams just for the stuff in Main [20:59] get hardware running [20:59] get LAN/Server set up and working [21:00] dgroos: Well, the edubuntu wiki, or probably even more accurately, the edubuntu-devel mailing list. [21:00] dgroos: There is an edubuntu handbook, which I, and others, have put in work on, and are still working on. [21:00] dgroos: well, that has actually been taken care of quite well, the hardware maintenance side, and OS side... its the higher layers that are bit more lacking in terms of communication [21:01] get to know general software such as sabayon (I'm wishing) and iTalc [21:01] figure out how to best pedagogically use this stuff-- [21:01] and I'm not attacking devs, as much as it might sound like that... I'm just emphasising the need for the people in the middle... the communicators... us [21:03] dgroos: in some sense from my end it's a bit like getting the cart before the horse [21:03] i'm an adult and sometimes the kids version of a desktop is just what i need during a stresfull day: [21:03] Sometimes, the job can seem overwhelming (I'm using spare time and have been working at getting thisk working for a few months--remember, I'm quite a Linux newbie [21:03] I haven't thought much on how to document the pedagogical us of sabayon because it's completely broken :-) [21:03] case in point [21:04] my primary concern is that every release we are quite close to *not* having a release [21:04] it's just the nature of things [21:04] Which I'm desperately trying to fix because upstreams DOA [21:04] sbalneav: very cool... its a highly sought after app [21:04] and it's not that I/we don't care, we just have to prioritize our effort [21:04] Well sure it is. [21:04] But, to beat that horse a bit further... [21:05] We can all have IDEAS about sabayon, and TALK about sabayon, and write down INFORMATION about sabayon, and consult with EDUCATORS about sabayon... [21:05] but until some one like me scrapes together the time to FIX sabayon, it don't mean squat. [21:06] Welcome to Free Software [21:06] Right. [21:06] Lots of ideas, few coders. [21:06] and it's not even strictly coders [21:07] we certainly need them [21:07] And that's my point about having some central strategy to help people decide where to put their limited time. [21:07] but a lot of packaging work can be done without having programming knowledge [21:07] we also need artists, doc writers, website maintainers, support people, etc. [21:07] and I apologize if it's out there and I don't know about it... [21:07] but bottom line we need to be moving forward [21:07] education as a whole needs people from all fields, and yes, we are all aware things tend to be done for free in this area, but what can we do about that? [21:08] dgroos: no, I think you make a good point [21:08]