[08:42] * pitti hugs seb128, bonjour! [08:42] * seb128 hugs pitti [08:43] hello, how was your skiing week? ;-) [08:43] hey [08:43] lut crevette [08:43] salut seb128 [08:44] does anyone know why I can't post apport report to the launchpad server, I receive a time-out error. [08:44] the server is down ? [08:45] crevette: dunno about that [08:45] seb128: very nice, and I could still do it even after 8 years :) [08:45] good ;-) [08:45] seb128: I borrowed some new carving skis, they're really awesome [08:50] pitti: lucky man :) [08:50] hi everybody! [08:51] lut didrocks [08:53] seb128: I need some help on gnome-games update. They drop libgnome* dependency, but when adding the lpi, it still depends on it. So, I had a first error : http://paste.ubuntu.com/106848/ [08:54] well, I added again libgnomeui dependency, regenerate configure and add #include [08:54] didrocks: no it doesn't? [08:54] really ? [08:54] because it builds without the lpi patch without libgnomeui [08:54] and adding the lpi patch, I have the first error [08:55] didrocks: it probably means that the patch needs to be updated to the new code [08:55] ok, is there a wiki page to handle the transition ? [08:55] didrocks: lpi has several apis, you probably need to use the gtkuimanager one now [08:55] didrocks: launchpad-integration has code example, or look to the other changes [08:55] ok, it has been ported, great :) [08:55] ok, I will seek for it [08:56] didrocks: look to the gnome-games lpi changes, most of the games are already using the ui manager api there [09:00] seb128: hum? I don't understand. the lpi changes are just a matter of #include [09:00] and then " [09:01] launchpad_integration_set_sourcepackagename("gnome-games"); [09:01] launchpad_integration_add_ui (ui, "/MenuBar/HelpMenu/LaunchpadItems"); [09:01] that's it [09:01] didrocks: right [09:01] and so, some commands have changed in the API? [09:01] didrocks: no [09:01] I'm quite lost ^^ [09:02] didrocks: that api is for application using gtkuimanager [09:02] didrocks: the game which has the error does launchpad_integration_add_items (gtk_menu_item_get_submenu (((GnomeUIInfo)mainmenu[2]).widget), -1, TRUE, TRUE); [09:02] didrocks: which is an another api to add a menu item to a standard gtkmenu rather [09:02] oh, ok, this game hasn't been transitionned [09:02] got it :) [09:03] well I don't know what upstream did [09:03] but it seems it has been transitioned [09:03] they probably moved it to gtkuimanager [09:03] ok, but we didn't change the lpi call before, so I have to do it [09:03] if that's the case you need to do changes similar to the one you just described [09:03] right [09:04] no problem, understood :) [09:04] thanks [09:08] morning everyone [09:28] re [09:28] lut huats [09:28] hello seb128 [09:28] how are you ? [09:29] huats: good thank you, how are you? [09:29] I am fine too [09:29] :) [09:29] seb128: hey ... found that I had gnome-main-menu upstream bump lying around; uploaded :) [09:29] asac: ah good thanks ;-) [09:29] seb128: eds new tarball? [09:30] asac: that should fix the nm changes and build issues ;-) [09:30] or can i sponsor something on top of current version? [09:30] seb128: yeah. seems james_w was eager and fixed the build issues [09:30] before ,) [09:30] seb128: btw, the gnome headers were still needed [09:30] we probably want to foward the patch [09:30] asac: well, eds uploaded one week as an intrepid update, theorically that should be pocket copied to jaunty if some arches were not taking ages to build [09:31] upstream uses LIBGNOMEUI_MODULE still in gnome_program_init [09:31] ok [09:31] seb128: hmmm [09:31] seb128: any reason whyt that update didnt include 248705? [09:31] bug #248705 [09:31] Launchpad bug 248705 in evolution-data-server "Evolution Exchange does not authenticate to Exchange servers with a relative path in the form action, e.g. "owaauth.dll"" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/248705 [09:31] asac: I think it's fixed in the new version [09:31] seb128: its committed upstream ... i wanted to upload it to jaunty first (to get some bake time) [09:31] seb128: ah [09:31] asac: I don't have an exchange account to try though [09:32] seb128: well ... the same patch landed upstream, so probably it is easy to see (reverse-apply etc) [09:32] i will check [09:32] asac: it's in 2.24.3 I think, you can check again to be sure [09:34] seb128: hmm ... seems to still apply [09:34] evolution-data-server-2.24.3$ patch -p1 < evolution-data-server_2.24.2-0ubuntu2.debdiff [09:34] (Stripping trailing CRs from patch.) [09:34] patching file debian/patches/70_evolution_exchange_fix.patch [09:35] (i stripped the changelog before obviously) [09:35] anyway. lets pocket copy and work on top of that [09:35] pitti: can you pocket copy? eds from intrepid to jaunty? [09:36] (welcome back btw ;)) [09:36] asac: hi [09:36] hi [09:36] asac: oh, from -proposed? sure [09:36] pitti: oh btw I told slangasek to move deskbar-applet nautilus-cd-burner tracker to supported now [09:37] seb128: great [09:37] pitti: nautilus-cd-burner is deprecated by brasero, they implement the burn location too now [09:37] asac: done [09:37] gratias [09:37] pitti: evolution and evolution-exchange too? [09:38] bah, evolution didn't build on ia64 and hppa so that will not work [09:38] heh [09:38] seb128: done [09:38] screw those :) [09:38] pitti: oh, you don't need all arches to pocket copy? cool ;-) [09:39] danke [09:46] seb128: your say: eds exchange fix upload to jaunty or intrepid-proposed (with pocket copy) [09:46] oh [09:47] ? [09:49] asac: jaunty, I don't want to reset the new version testing only for that change [09:49] asac: let's get 2.24.3 to intrepid-updates and then do this incremental change, otherwise we delay all the other fixes for yet another week of testing [09:50] seb128: ah ... didnt know that it didnt go to -updates yet ;) [09:50] sure [09:51] mvo: bzr branch lp:app-install-data-ubuntu [09:51] Format for lp-46726096:///~ubuntu-core-dev/app-install-data-ubuntu/ubuntu/.bzr is deprecated - please use 'bzr upgrade' to get better performance [09:51] :-P [10:01] mvo: shall i upgrade that? [10:01] asac: yeah, go for it [10:03] hey mvo [10:03] hey seb128 [10:04] seb128: did you have a look at the issue I am facing with the gnome-system-monitor ? the libtool stuff [10:04] huats: no, can you give me the url again? [10:04] seb128: sure [10:04] I try not working during weekends ;-) [10:04] yeah I know [10:04] and you are right :) [10:05] http://www.reponses.net/ubuntu/gnome-system-monitor_2.24.3-0ubuntu1.dsc [10:05] (I have put everything in that dir) [10:09] ok [10:27] huats: the error is because automake get ran during the build [10:28] ok [10:28] huats: either you should try to make the build use the maintainer mode so autotools are not ran or you should change the autoconf patch by an autoreconf one [10:28] huats: the build will probably work on a box where automake is not installed, you can try to install it as a workaround [10:28] seb128: thanks [10:28] you're welcome [10:29] brb, trying the new glib version [10:29] seb128: I have to admit that I didn't understand why it failed... [10:29] I'll look closely at the logs looking for automake then... [10:32] mvo: seems i failed to upgrade it ;) [10:33] the backup dir already exists and i am too dumb to use lftp to remove it :/ === asac_ is now known as asac [10:34] asac: ha! [10:34] grumpf [10:34] asac: I guess you did not get my /msg ? [13:27] mvo: do you know what to blame on bug such as bug #313970? [13:27] Launchpad bug 313970 in poppler "package libpoppler-qt4-3 0.8.7-1ubuntu0.1 failed to install/upgrade: cannot access archive: No such file or directory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/313970 [13:38] seb128: urgs, no - I ask for more information [13:41] mvo: thanks === davmor2 is now known as davmor2-away [15:34] Does anyone here use DSL with NetworkManager, and have some time to answer a couple of questions about how it's configured? (This is not a support question, I'm working on the NetworkManager design) [15:36] I don't [15:38] * mpt suspects https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/network-manager-pptp is obsolete [15:38] mpt: are those questions about dsl options users configure or question about how they use the dialogs? [15:38] mpt: go to connection editor, crewate a dsl connection, fill in username/password, done [15:39] mpt: probing for concentrator is not yet done if thats what you ask [15:39] mpt: and why dont you ping me ;)? [15:40] asac, though you maintain it, I didn't think you were any more likely to use DSL than anyone else. ;-) [15:40] mpt: but i know how it works [15:41] asac, the main thing I want to know is what the menu looks like with a pppoe connection [15:41] mpt: can you please talk to dan williams about his plans to update nm applet? i think they are working on rewrite so in the end your time could be wasted ;) [15:41] could you send me a screenshot? === bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth [15:42] mpt: the menu looks exactly as if its a normal wired connection [15:42] (e.g. its beneath the "Wired Device" and is called with whatever name you choose when configuring) [15:43] let me get a screen [15:43] thanks [15:45] mpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/tmp/nm07-dsl.png [15:46] asac, excellent, thank you [15:47] mpt: you can do that on your own, but just adding a new dsl connection in wizard ;) [15:47] (which would also give you the wizard pages ... which might be worth improvement) [15:47] asac, why do you have disabled copies of three of them? [15:47] feature wise the idea is to auto probe for pppoe concentrator and only show the dsl connection if thats available (i guess) [15:48] mpt: i have two wired devices and didnt say "this dsl thing is only for eth0 or eth1" [15:48] (which you do by setting the mac address) [15:48] mpt: the one greyed out doesnt have a link (e.g. no cable plugged) [15:53] Does someone know what's wrong with the mono libs? I have f-spot, beagle and tomboy blocking upgrades after some C# libs were renamed [15:53] Is this blocked on a ftbfs? waiting for some uploads? === davmor2-away is now known as davmor2 [16:06] lool: try asking directhex on #ubuntu-devel, I think he's working on that [16:17] seb128: thanks [16:22] hmm .. metacity is looping :/ [16:22] 99% [16:23] no output for strace ... so seems to do hot-loop ;) [16:53] seb128, ping [16:53] hi hggdh [16:53] hi seb128. I opened an upgrade request for libpst (for Evolution & the new plugin pst-importer for Outlook files) [16:54] ok [16:54] seb128, I also packaged libpst-0.6.25 [16:54] ah, that's good [16:54] but I am certain I did things wrong somewhere ;-) [16:54] attach the update to the bug and subscribe the sponsor team to the bug? [16:55] it is a brand new package -- Evo needs the libpst from the other fork, not from Debian [16:55] there is different things named libpst? [16:56] no, there are two forks of the original (orphaned) libpst: debian, and www-five-ten-sg.com/libpst [16:56] debian's has not really developed; 5-10 has kept on, and now supports Outlook 2007 [16:56] so Evolution went with it [16:57] but I had to radically change the debianisation 5-10 did for libpst [16:58] I have noted in the upgrade request I need review [16:58] bug 317602 [16:58] Launchpad bug 317602 in libpst "Please upgrade libpst from upstream at www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/317602 [16:59] seb128, who is the "sponsor team"? [17:00] hggdh: ubuntu-universe-sponsors [17:01] hggdh: the debian and 5-10 versions are abi incompatible? [17:01] not sure if we should aim at having one version, ie replace the debian version by the new upstream code [17:01] or rather having different sources [17:02] the current debian version and the 5-10 version [17:03] if we get both, it will not quite work -- debian's does not deal with outlook 2007, 5-20 does [17:03] we could get both version in the archive that would let evolution use the 5-10 one for example and the other one would still be available for other things which use that [17:04] but having duplicated code is not the best thing [17:04] yes [17:04] and debian only provides command-line utilities [17:04] well, those commands could be used [17:04] does the 5-10 version has similar commands? [17:05] yes, they implement the same commands [17:05] ok, so basically we should deprecate the debian version [17:05] debian's generate one single binary package, readpst; mine generates (so far) 3: readpst, libpst, and libpst-dev [17:06] of course, I am still to add in the -dbgs [17:07] don't [17:07] we automatically get dbgsym for everything [17:08] cool [17:09] and I will check compatibility between debian's and 5-10's command-line utilities [17:09] thanks [17:10] oh, and -- I just imported a PST into Evo trunk -- seems to work [18:16] seb128 do you have a second to review if the change is alright about brasero split -> http://pfragoso.org/ubuntu/brasero_0.9.1-0ubuntu1.dsc [18:16] no, I was about to go [18:17] I'll have a look later [18:17] ok thanks [18:17] cya! [18:17] ember: is brasero 0.9.x going to be stable for GNOME 2.26? [18:17] bye [18:17] later seb128 [18:17] or ask pochu to have a look to the change ;-) [18:17] :) [18:20] is likely to be -> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2009-January/thread.html [18:20] pochu also have a look at the change :p [18:24] ah, right [18:24] ok, let me see [18:28] thanks, i have to go i will read it later [18:44] ember: you want a versioned Depends: brasero-common for brasero [18:44] probably brasero-common (>= ${source:Version}) [18:45] ember: put the full description in all the packages, then append "this package contains the foo files" after it [18:46] (at least for brasero-common. For libbrasero* either put it, or put something else, but the current one doesn't describe the package :) [18:50] ember: I think you want s/libtotem-plparserN/libbrasero-mediaN/ in debian/rules :) [18:53] ember: you may want to move the manpages to brasero to avoid a lintian warning, but that's not necessary [18:54] ember: not sure if you want /usr/lib/*.a [18:54] ember: other than that, looks good to me [19:31] hi, i was wondering if someone could help me out with contact information [19:32] i wanted to start contributing my user experience expertise to the ubuntu project [19:33] i work for a user experience consultancy as a usability analyst, and want to start working outside of work on ubuntu/gnome based projects to give something back to the community [21:01] idnzor: Great! [21:02] idnzor: We don't have a formal way to do that yet (sadly, but we're working on it). But a good thing to check out is the Open Usability Project. [21:02] idnzor: They do usability analysis and design for open source applications. [21:13] hi tedg, thanks for the information [21:13] what is it you are currently working on then? in terms of putting in place a formal approach to usability [21:15] idnzor: Yes, I'm working in the newly formed Desktop Experience team, but one of the problems we have is "newly formed" so we don't have good processes yet :( [21:15] idnzor: It's definitely something we want to fix. [21:19] ok, do you have resources where i could learn a little more about it? wikis etc.. [21:29] idnzor: Sadly, no. Probably the best is actually Mark's blog: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/ [21:32] tedg: ah ok, is there a mailing list for the Desktop Experience team? [21:33] idnzor: Only an internal Canonical one currently. [21:34] tedg: ah ok, are you a canonical employee currently? [21:35] idnzor: Yes, I am. [21:41] tedg: so I actually kinda meant I was wondering if there's a higher level abstraction above the python-dbus API ;) [21:42] tedg: just because I was going to knock up a little autossh replacement that listens to NM's connection status, but after a few minutes of reading some python dbus code I decided to do something else instead [21:42] Ng: Heh, it depends on the API. There are things like libnotify that don't require any DBus at all, but actually use DBus. [21:43] Ng: Hmm, that shouldn't be too hard. [21:43] tedg: ok, are there any immediate plans to open up the desktop experience team to allow people external to the organisation to contribute? [21:43] tedg: I'll have another play now, but I was pretty much expecting a oneliner to say "I want events from NM to go to this callback" :) [21:44] Ng: vi `which gnome-power-manager-inhibit` [21:44] idnzor: Yeah, we really want to set up a design.ubuntu.com and do things through there. But, we're not there yet. [21:46] tedg: thanks :) [21:48] Ng: have you seen hotssh? [21:49] tedg: is there anything you feel the team need in the way of community support at the moment? [21:49] tedg: in other words, you need my help :p [21:51] walters: yeah, I want to just run this inside an existing terminal though (a terminator split, specifically) [21:53] Ng: yeah; i think it'd be cool though if there was hotssh-with-layout or terminator-with-special-ssh-support though [21:54] Ng: how library like is current terminator code? [21:54] idnzor: I don't have anything specific, but if you took something and made some mockups with some ideas, I'm sure they'd be considered. [21:55] walters: there's a guy working on a fork at the moment called ssherminator. we're a bit stuck at the moment, but I'm hoping we can make the UI work to fold his stuff back in later [21:55] ah [21:55] idnzor: In general, we're trying to look at "desktop wide" things instead of application specific. [21:55] idnzor: So something on that topic would definitely be interesting. [21:56] walters: our (by which I mean my) code is a bit of a disaster really, I really suck at design, so there's not really any clear interfaces, and the objects peek inside each other too much. I would *love* to get some pointers on what I could be doing better though :) [21:57] Ng: eh, i wouldn't worry about that kind of thing too much; in the end what's important is a good user experience [21:58] Ng: unless it's *really* bad =) [21:58] walters: I think the suck is limited by it not being a huge amount of code, but absolutely the user experience is the focus, and I'm resolutely refusing to waste lots of time trying to rewrite and making new mistakes :) [22:01] tedg: by desktop wide do you mean quite fundamental changes to the desktop experience? [22:02] idnzor: Yes, across applications. So things like networking configuration where it's not app specific, but a bunch of apps use networking. [22:02] tedg: or just an approach which encompasses all applications under the ubuntu desktop [22:02] idnzor: That too. :) [22:04] tedg: ok, how are you going to look at incorporating usability into this? [22:04] tedg: for example, are you looking at using usability testing, or having a more expert approach to design? [22:07] tedg: We're looking at both. Expert design to get started, but we want to incorporate user testing also. We're trying to figure out some way to distribute the user testing, as we have a great community, figuring out ways that they can help. [22:10] tedg: i was thinking that. from my experience, remote usability testing does not work any as near as good as co-located usability testing [22:10] idnzor: how exactly are you looking to contribue? code? design? testing? [22:10] Ng: the user experience is *awesome*! [22:11] well, ideally drive design through usability [22:11] idnzor: Yeah, that's one of the reasons we were looking at using the LoCo teams in various areas to help. [22:12] idnzor: seele did some usability testing with her LoCo in Washington D.C. with mixed success. [22:12] that's a very vague and open answer :) [22:12] for example, design and facilitate usability testing, then produce recommendations from that, in the form of analysis and wireframing, for example [22:13] any good usability analyst knows when to be vague and open :p [22:13] idnzor: What timezone are you in? [22:13] UK [22:13] my work is very much based in the Web [22:13] idnzor: You might try pinging mpt here tomorrow. He's in the UK also, so he's probably dinner/asleep right now, but he'd have more information. [22:14] idnzor: i don't know if you've seen http://betterdesktop.org/ but it's pretty much exactly what you just described (or it was intented to be when I was at Novell and there was a product design team, and there was some semblance of caring about usability) [22:15] there's also lots of automated testing that can be done, to improve usability, but which doesn't really require users to test (accessibility framework support, for example) [22:16] hmmm, i am not sure about the desktop, but only around 10% of accessibility tests can be done automatically on the Web [22:17] and as for automatic usability testing, you have to be careful not to conclude anything to broad with it [22:18] well, you can do regression testing for UI layout following the HIG, pretty easily, with automated scripts [22:19] thats right, but it won't tell you if the HIG is right in the first place [22:19] no [22:20] hmmm, but it would be interesting to know where you guys are going with the team desktop experience team [22:20] but you can't really put an objective measurement on a subjective problem. you can only make somewhat educated guesses at what's good or not :) [22:21] do you have any development/coding background? [22:22] a while back, i started working on a suite of tools to help with usability testing and analysis of those tests, but never really got the time to take it to the level i'd like to see it at [22:22] well, ideally you should ask the user whats good or not, then there is no guessing involved, only reasoning based on attitudinal and empirical data :D [22:22] http://launchpad.net/deskscribe if you're interested. i recently just moved it over to launchpad [22:23] ok thanks, i will check it out [22:23] idnzor: yes, well, if you only ask 10 or 100 users, it may or may not be reflective of the opinions of the other million usrs :) [22:23] i have development experience [22:24] hehe, your are very right :p [22:25] there are lots of awesome things that i want to see done with deskscribe, but i just haven't had the time to look into getting them done [22:25] particularly in the area of audio/video recording [22:26] i think the betterdesktop.org approach was a good start tho [22:26] it was [22:26] it's too bad the ball got dropped [22:26] but it would be pretty easy to pick up from where it was left off [22:26] especially if the features i mentioned get added to deskscribe [22:27] would be very easy to set up a "usability lab" then with a few webcams [22:27] the challenge is how to use a large distributed community using the best usability methods available, which all require co-location with participants [22:27] thats right, all you need it a few webcams [22:28] with most modern laptops, you've already got a webcam and mic anyway [22:28] could very easily do eye tracking, and video recording of facial expressions with that [22:28] context is very important though [22:29] yes, well, mouse movements would be tracked (as deskscribe already does), and the desktop itself would be captured in video as well [22:29] and eliciting peoples thoughts [22:29] similar to the videos you see on betterdesktop.org [22:30] thats right, but i think you need a facilitator there [22:30] sometimes yes [22:30] hehe [22:31] but i think it would be pretty easy to get the community involved if we had scripts on a web site, and the software to do all the hard work [22:32] the benefit of facilitated sessions comes in exploring issues that arise during the sessions [22:32] but like you say, there is still value in a set up like that [22:32] yeah [22:33] but providing a plug-n-play package makes it easy for arbitrary people in the community go out and do usability testing [22:33] some companies are offering it as a service on the web. essentially a set up which involves company a proving a script, then people go look at a website and try to complete those tasks in the script on the website [22:33] and be the facilitator and provoke discussione/etc... [22:33] yeah [22:34] i guess the challenge then comes in the analysis of data [22:35] from my experience its better to do 12 well designed testing sessions than 24 heavily discounted ones, discounted in terms or method design [22:36] better both in terms of resources used to analyse and quality of the data itself [22:36] yeah, sure [22:36] i think expert based appraoch also has its merits, however [22:37] and the model of open source is well suited to it [22:37] however, it is something that is done pretty wrong on the whole at the moment [22:38] in the way that people, with the best intentions, who develop the UI often are grounded with a heavy technical perspective and not a human factors one [22:39] sometimes, yes [22:39] of course, that was a generalisation :P [22:39] * dobey is a bit well rounded himself [22:39] sorry, i only decided to contribute to the community tonight, so my ideas are all over the place at the moment [22:40] no worries [22:40] i've been hacking on gnome for 10 years :) [22:40] the thing is, for me its best to first understand now developers currently work [22:41] they are the ones grinding out the code, and from my experience engaging with the developers is key to pushing UE [22:42] yeah [22:42] some can be frighteningly opposed to sanity though :) [22:42] yh, you hear some things that make you wonder [22:43] 'the users should be intelligent enough, why should i worry about where a button is placed' [22:43] 'the user journeys work fine' [22:44] i am working through a lot of politics on a project at the moment [22:45] the technical guy thinks usability it about getting colours right, hes convinced the system he has set up it fine [22:46] but oh well [22:46] hehe [22:46] enough work woes :p [22:47] dunno what you guys are discussing but it seems I was right to not start IRC to get some work done ;-) [22:47] heh [22:48] well, i will swing by here again, i posted an email to the mailing list as well [22:49] idnzor: ah, I noticed your email on the list, good to have people interested by usuability there ;-) [22:50] im passionate about it :p [22:50] i luckily work in a very good company who really understands UE [22:51] only 25 of us that work there but we do some pretty cool stuff [22:51] "only" [22:52] well, compared to the "big guys" :p [22:52] that's already enough people to do good work ;-) [22:52] trying to get into the accessibility side of thigns as well atm [22:53] we did some work for the UN recently [22:53] UN? [22:53] we are pretty much one of the best consultancies for that in the world [22:53] yh [22:54] cool eh [22:54] our head of accessibility is uber [22:54] getting a11y right is hard [22:55] we use the web accessibility guidelines, i guess as we mostly focus on web design [22:55] getting a11y right on the web is even harder :) [22:56] we developed the first fully accessible CMS [22:57] :D [22:57] well kudos then [22:58] hrmm, i think i need to go develop some clean cookware [22:58] thanks [22:58] anyway, im off [22:58] later [22:59] like i said if i can be of any help to anyone please let me know [22:59] my email is on the list.... [23:08] pochu: :D [23:18]