LnsCan someone tell me real quick a switch or utility that simply returns the number of packages (if any) that will be upgraded, and exits?00:30
HedgeMageLns: apt-get upgrade -s00:31
HedgeMageLns: I'm afraid I don't know if there's a gui way :/00:32
* HedgeMage is kind of old-school00:32
LnsHedgeMage: perfect! Thanks. No, I needed it for a script00:32
HedgeMageGlad I'm a CLI type of person, then :)00:35
Lnsme too =)00:37
Lnshave i mentioned I LOVE BASH??00:58
* Lns waves to chan01:10
Ahmuck-Jrhi everybody01:28
HedgeMagehello, Ahmuck-Jr01:31
sbalneavEvening all01:44
HedgeMageevening, sbalneav01:46
sbalneavLaserJock: Still about?03:09
sbalneavhey HedgeMage03:09
HedgeMagehi :)03:09
LaserJocksbalneav: sure03:10
sbalneavHm, ok03:12
sbalneavGot it to use Xephyr03:12
sbalneavit fires up, then the screen crashes, looking at the log now.03:13
sbalneavMainThread 2009/01/19 21:12:21.0587 (admin-tool): Got fatal error: sabayon-sessi03:14
sbalneavon exited with a FATAL ERROR (exit code 1)03:14
LaserJocksbalneav: did you fire it up with Xnest before?03:14
sbalneavIt's definitely starting Xephyr, and getting as far as painting the wallpaper.03:15
sbalneavHmmm, wonder where it creates the "user" it logs in as...03:16
sbalneavMight be an ".xession-errors" file there.03:16
sbalneavYeah, Xnest bombs out too.03:20
LaserJockat roughly the same place?03:21
LaserJockMine never got to painting the wallpaper I don't think, it was just the regular checkered X background03:22
sbalneavXNEST_USR1_TIMEOUT = 1003:22
sbalneavlets see03:23
LaserJockbut I made a patch that would at least get me a loaded desktop03:23
LaserJock*then* it would crash shortly thereafter03:23
sbalneavwhat was your patch?03:23
LaserJockit's in lib/sources/paneldelegate.py03:24
LaserJockI can pastebin it for you03:24
sbalneavChecking for non power of two support: Not present.03:24
sbalneavaborting and using fallback: /usr/bin/metacity03:24
sbalneavSo, it's trying to use freakin' compiz, and when it fails, and tries to fall back to metacity, that's when it pukes.03:25
LaserJockwell, it shouldn't puke03:26
sbalneavHow do we make the DEFAULT window manager to be metacity, I wonder.03:26
LaserJockI think you've got the same bug I do03:26
LaserJockbecause that's about where mine would fail03:26
LaserJockI think it trying compiz and failing is OK03:26
LaserJockI mean, I think we could probably have it default but I don't think it hurts to have it fail03:27
sbalneavok, lemme try your patch, see if I get any farther.03:27
LaserJockgreat, I've forgotten my password in my VM03:30
sbalneavHmmm, just looking at the paneldelegate code.03:40
sbalneavYour patch fixes that ONE problem, but if id's null, then there's a whole bunch of things that are going to puke.03:41
sbalneavWhere did you find the python trace that put you on to that.03:41
sbalneavthe debug log it dumps in root's home dir isn't.... very helpful.03:41
LaserJockyou know it just kinda spat out one time I tried to run sabayon03:41
LaserJockand I just grabbed it and hung onto it03:42
LaserJockI don't know what I was doing I was restarting it so often03:42
LaserJockand I looked and there was a nice python trace and I was like "oh, now that's something"03:42
LaserJockso I kept that terminal open and hacked in another03:42
LaserJockI played around a little with trying to figure out which panel was causing the problem03:43
LaserJockso I had it spit out the IDs03:43
sbalneavMine dies RIGHT when it says "switching to metacity"03:43
sbalneavlemme look03:43
LaserJockand it would do the top panel, the bottom panel, and then this empty ID03:43
LaserJockso this empty ID "panel" I suspect is something funky gnome is doing03:44
sbalneavknow how I change the default WM to metacity?  Something in the default session file, I'm thinking03:44
LaserJockhmm, somewhat tricky in this case03:45
LaserJockI know how to do it normally03:45
LaserJocksbalneav: setting WINDOW_MANAGER env variable is supposed to work, but I don't know how to get that to the sabayon session03:47
sbalneavwell, changed DEFWM in /usr/bin/gnome-wm03:48
sbalneavnow I don't get the metacity message, but it still dies.03:49
LaserJockright, I don't actually think it's compiz/metacity03:49
LaserJockI think it's in all the crap sabayon does at the beginning like the panel stuff03:49
LaserJockwhat I'd love to do is to be able to switch each of the sort of modules in sabayon03:50
LaserJockso pass --disable-panel to turn off paneldelgate stuff03:50
LaserJockthat would help in debugging03:51
LaserJockwell, actual verbose debugging output would also be nice03:51
sbalneavhold on, we should do this in #sabayon :)03:52
sbalneavlets go there03:52
sbalneavI think I say federico03:52
LaserJockyeah, he was in and out03:52
=== Meshezabeel is now known as Meshezabeel-away
marabouthave  older machines (celeron, AMD) and am wondering which version of edubuntu is going to be best to use. (machines are below 512mb ram and would like to network them to home network05:59
LaserJockI would probably still go with the latest stable, Ubuntu 8.1006:00
maraboutLaserJock: use the regular CD and then do the edubuntu supplemental CD install afterwards right?06:02
LaserJockjust pop in the Edubuntu CD it will automatically get detected and you'll have a couple installer options06:03
LaserJockthe RAM is a tad low for optimal use06:04
maraboutLaserJock:  512 being the minimum requirement?06:04
LaserJockit's not the minimum06:04
LaserJockbut you'll most likely notice a decent improvement if you were to upgrade to say 1GB06:05
LaserJockthat's my experience anyway06:05
LaserJockI've got a few older machines myself06:05
maraboutLaserJock:  Wow and I thought that the real ram dependent OS were the other guys...06:06
LaserJockLinux makes good use of RAM06:06
LaserJockdoesn't mean it's a RAM hog06:06
LaserJockI think the listed minimum requirements for Ubuntu is something like 300MB06:08
LaserJockmarabout: I think the biggest difference in minimum requirements between Ubuntu and "the other guys" is diskspace06:10
maraboutLaserJock:  I guess that's where I got confused. I'd been hearing about Ubuntu and its wide application for under-developed countries, lack of resources, etc but i guess it was referring to just the fact that the OS is free...06:12
LaserJockno, I think it's also true otherwise06:12
LaserJockwe have Xubuntu which is a fair amount lower system requirements06:13
LaserJockthere's also lots of ways you can lower the requirements as well06:13
LaserJocklike you can run Ubuntu on mobile devices06:13
LaserJockit's just that the default installation tries to be pretty featureful with apps that take resources (Firefox, OpenOffice, etc.)06:14
LaserJockFirefox is usually the big ram hog, that's the same on any OS :-)06:15
maraboutLaserJock:  I did have a question about the whole thin client or thin server thing. Since I want to connect these computers onto the home network how does the the "thin client" relate to me if at all.06:16
LaserJockwell, how big is your home network?06:16
LaserJockhow many machines06:16
maraboutLaserJock:  4 macs, 3 PCs, 1 ubuntu laptop, ( + 2 more soon to be Ubuntu desktops) all running of a 2wire broadcom home networking device (modem.router)06:18
marabout*modem/router all-in-one06:18
LaserJockwell, what LTSP (the thin client server) would let you do is set up 1 machine as the server06:19
LaserJockand all the other machines could log into that server and run off of it06:19
LaserJockso you only maintain 1 machine06:20
LaserJockyou have all your files on 1 machine06:20
LaserJockyou only need to backup 1 machine, etc. :-)06:20
maraboutLaserJock:  sounds very interesting. And enticing. I assume the server/machine would need to be pretty well beefed up (ram, clock speed, HD space, etc...?06:21
LaserJockwell, it needs to be pretty decent but not horribly so06:22
LaserJockI would think a newish desktop machine with ~2-4 MB of RAM would do just fine06:22
LaserJockthere are of course limitations and disadvantages06:23
LaserJockbut having a single point to maintain is pretty appealing06:23
maraboutLaserJock:  any particular big disadvantages a layperson should know about?06:24
LaserJockwell, 2 that I can think of06:24
LaserJockone is that it's pretty network intensive (as you're actually running everything over the network)06:25
LaserJockso for instance doing it over wifi can be pretty darn slow, most people seem to not recommend it06:25
LaserJockthe other thing one is if you're doing a lot of stuff with 3D accelerated graphics06:26
LaserJockthings like watching movies, playing games, etc. can tax the server pretty hard06:26
LaserJockthere is a decent way of getting around that, but it's still a consideration06:27
maraboutLaserJock:  well I have children ranging from 14-2. the school age ones are doing online school. I am doing a lot of stuff online during the day when I am home. obviously the older ones want to watch a lot of tv, video web stuff but I am interested in doing it or a least trying it. What is the "get around" besides getting a faster, heavy-duty modem/router ( any suggestions there.../)06:30
LaserJockwell, what you can do is have LTSP transfer certain programs at boot to the "client" machine and they run on the client06:32
LaserJockthat's called a fat client06:32
LaserJockthat puts more of the load on the client's CPU06:32
maraboutLaserJock:  that sounds good as the best candidate that I have right now for a server would either be a Mac G4 PowerPC tower (1.5ghz/1.5Ram) or a emachine T3406 with a celeron 340 processor06:35
maraboutLaserJock: If I am considering this what install CD should I use for the would-be (future) server?06:39
LaserJockyou need the Ubuntu Alternate CD06:40
LaserJockit has an install option when you boot up (I think hit F4) to do an LTSP Server06:40
LaserJockI would get comfortable with Ubuntu and maybe play around on the side with LTSP to start with06:41
LaserJockit's a really cool thing, but it can take a while to get it all ready to "roll out"06:41
maraboutLaserJock:  on the side as in on another machine or...?06:42
LaserJockI wouldn't try it initially on a machine that you really need to have access06:43
LaserJocklike a print server or something06:43
LaserJockI always do stuff impulsively and the family is left without a printer for a week ;-)06:44
maraboutLaserJock:  well i just got two older machines last night from a guy off craigslist to use to kind of learn Ubuntu and set up edubuntu for children, etc. it appears that the emachine has 756 of ram and a 2.x ghz processor so I guess that has the potential to be a good server.06:48
LaserJockso just spend some time with those machines06:49
LaserJockonce you get them setup and everything running it's usually pretty trivial to test out the thin clients06:49
maraboutLaserJock:  Should I do install as server and use it as regular desktop until I'm ready or just do a regular install (+edubuntu) and then do a server install when I actually want to go the server route06:49
LaserJockyou can take a regular machine and network-boot it via LTSP without doing anything to the "thin client" itself06:50
LaserJockwell, I'd go ahead an do the LTSP install06:50
LaserJockbecause you get regular Ubuntu desktop, plus the LTSP server bits06:50
LaserJockso if you're not actively using the LTSP it's no different than a normal Ubuntu desktop06:51
maraboutLaserJock:  not too familiar with "network-book via LTSP" terminology but if I understand you correctly i do an regular install and add an option at the install screen for LTSP services?06:52
LaserJockmarabout: what it basically means is basically you can set the boot options on one of your non-Ubuntu machines to boot from the network06:54
LaserJockif your LTSP server is running it will boot from that and you'll get Ubuntu06:54
LaserJockif it's not running you'll get whatever the machine normally boots06:54
maraboutLaserJock:  wow that is very interesting. Ok so I assume that you would suggest using 8.10 install disc as opposed to disc? BTW are they both considered LTS or not?06:55
LaserJockno, only 8.04.1 is LTS06:56
LaserJockI personally would try 8.10 first since you're not in an environment that needs long term support and super stability06:57
LaserJocki.e. a school06:57
LaserJockI think the fat clients support is also way better in 8.1006:57
LaserJockI should warn you though, I'm not an LTSP guru by any means06:58
LaserJockI deal primarily with the educational apps and software maintanence side of things06:58
maraboutLaserJock:  Ok point well taken. Is there a primer where I can find out more about the edubuntu software and what is available and methods of use, etc.?07:01
LaserJockmarabout: the list of applications on the CD for 8.10 is at http://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.1007:03
LaserJockmarabout: as far as LTSP you can check out http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html , also ltsp.org in general and the #ltsp channel07:04
LaserJockthere is also the edubuntu-users mailing list, you can sign up from http://lists.ubuntu.com07:04
maraboutLaserJock: i was just getting ready to ask about that. so i can find out about 'fat client' there as well07:05
LaserJockI think so07:05
LaserJockthere's a bunch of LTSP stuff on the wikis too07:05
LaserJockmarabout: I think this is a good spot https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP07:06
LaserJockit will probably have a bias towards school setups, that's a place where Edubuntu+LTSP is used a lot07:07
maraboutLaserJock:  Ok you have been a trmendous help. I am trying to connect the eMachine to the internet now and do the Ubuntu install. Now just a clarification. 8.04 versus 8.10. - 8.10 will be a 'better' product due to improvements, add-ons but 8.04 will just be more stable than its successor, correct?07:08
LaserJockit generally is more stable07:09
LaserJockthe LTS thing means that it is supported for 3 years instead of the usual 18 months07:09
LaserJockgenerally people upgrade their machines within 18 months so it's not an issue07:10
LaserJock8.10 has newer version of the applications and better support for the fat clients07:10
LaserJockif you end up having issues with 8.10 you could always try 8.0407:11
LaserJockwe'll also have 9.04 released in April07:11
LaserJockfor normal home use I generally don't see the use of using the LTS release unless you have problems with the newer one07:12
LaserJockhowever the option is always there, that's the beauty of having a release every 6 months instead of every 6 years :-)07:12
maraboutLaserJock: Ok wel I am now trying to get the emachine ready for Ubuntu 8.10. Thanks again for all your help07:21
LaserJockno problem07:21
LaserJockthanks for stoping by, you're always welcome07:22
sbalneavMorning all15:09
HedgeMagegood morning, sbalneav15:10
sbalneavMoooooornin HedgeMage15:20
HedgeMageHow's life?15:20
sbalneavWe're trying to rally the troops around getting Sabayon fixed.15:21
sbalneavit's our biggest PITA at the moment.15:21
sbalneavUpstream's either comatose or on life support, or possibly dead, so we've pulled out the paddles, and are trying cpr.15:23
HedgeMageWhy sabayon?  I've not really played with it.. I thought it was just another WM??15:23
sbalneavNo, sabayon's the desktop profile management tool put out by gnome.15:24
sbalneavIf you're a teacher trying to "manage" desktops, then you need it.15:24
HedgeMageoh... that makes more sense... what all does it do?15:24
sbalneavi.e. customize top and bottom panels, firefox defaults, gconf lockdowns, etc.15:25
Ahmuckcan i ask a question.  i know when i looked at this and was having problems everyone told me read the documentation, but it looks like it's borken16:01
ubottuPlease don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)16:02
Ahmucknot quit the response i expected to a comment on saybayon16:04
sbalneavAhmuck: So, what's the question?16:34
nubaesbalneav: LTSP does have printing enabled for local apps16:35
nubaethe code was put in by Gadi16:35
nubaeI remember cause I used it to enable printing on fat clients16:35
sbalneavnubae: ok, after I did some of the initial groundwork on the local apps, I haven't had time to persue it, so I think Gadi, warren, and vagrantc have done most of the busy work, but I'm out of thouch with what they've done.16:36
Ahmucksbalneav: the question was implied.  why was i directed to documentation for software that was borken.  i worked trying to get sayboyon to work for some time, and gave it upt16:40
sbalneavWho directed you to the docs?  Maybe they didn't realize it was broken.16:59
sbalneavI didn't realize that sabayon was totally non functional until a week ago.16:59
Ahmuckthat's fair17:00
sbalneavI looked at it durning the Gutsy release, and it worked fine at that point.17:00
* Ahmuck labels himself as PITA tester17:00
nubaeyeah, Laserjock managed to get it to work17:01
nubaerecently, by doing something17:01
nubaebut maybe we should take it out of the docs, since it is far from finished17:02
sbalneavWell, unless something changed since last night, it's still broken17:02
nubaeyeah he didnt upload the fix he did17:02
sbalneavWe were working on it last night, and it's non functional in Jaunty.17:02
nubaehad something to do with /home/sabayon being created17:03
sbalneavThis is something new since last night?17:04
nubaeand sabayon trying to start as a real user as opposed to system user17:04
nubaeI know he did something with that, and managed to get it starting up17:04
sbalneavWell, we've got it starting, but the window crashes when trying to start up a desktop17:04
nubaeoh, yeah :-) I thought u meant it didnt start up17:05
Ahmuckas an educator tech, not having something stable that works would be a nail in the ltsp server idea.  i understand buggy software, but software that is bieng listed and promoted that doesn't work creates an appearance that the entire project is broken17:05
Ahmuckuntil it does work i'd suggest pulling it from the docs and promoting it17:06
nubaeAhmuck: unfortunately that is the case with a good 40% of software... sugar is a good example... its just very very Beta17:06
Ahmuckpull the beta stuff, and put out what works17:06
sbalneavAhmuck: So, pull it from the docs :)17:06
Ahmuckor at least put it in the beta section17:06
Ahmuckit's like saying here, this nice shiny car, but you only get three wheels17:07
Ahmuckwhich is great if it's a tri car17:07
sbalneavWe understand.17:07
nubaesbalneav: Ahmuck is not in the edubuntu-docs team, which he would need to be to do changes17:07
sbalneavPull it from the docs.17:07
sbalneavSo, become a member of the edubuntu-docs team :)17:07
nubaebut he could edit and send your or my way17:07
nubaeogra would need to enable that I believe17:08
* ogra looks up17:09
ogradid he apply ?17:09
nubaeAhmuck: ^^17:09
sbalneavMorning ogra!17:10
ograheh, eventing17:10
ogra*evening even17:10
nubaeevening indeed17:10
Ahmuckbecause i'm interested in the project i'll consider it.  i'm knee deep in projects as it is.  i've been working on getting local chapters for a regionl lug started and it's been taking tim17:10
sbalneav<non-time specific universal greeting> ogra!17:11
sbalneavI'm already up to my knees reading Sabayon code. :)17:11
sbalneavogra: from the sabyon-list, someone frm another Linux project's send me a list of patches they made to sabayon:17:12
sbalneavFairly extensive patchset.17:12
nubaefine, I'll edit the docs...17:12
ograsbalneav, well, if it gets it working, now is the time17:13
sbalneavSabayon certainly worked in the gutsy cycle, since i *fixed* it to work then.17:13
nubaewas it changes to gnome that broke it?17:13
sbalneavThere's been changes to X, gnome, and sabayon since then.17:13
sbalneavAnd, sabayon's "languished" unloved for a bit.17:14
sbalneavWe'll try to change that.17:14
nubaestrange thing is, I remember using it in Hardy and it worked ok to create exam profiles for my students17:15
Ahmucknubae: how would you edit them?.  i might consider it17:28
nubaevi or nano or some such17:29
nubaejust dont do what I did... open the opendoc in open office :-D17:29
Ahmuckwell, i meant in content.  i feel i'm on the outside looking in, and i'm not i'd know how the project would want them editied.17:30
nubaejust take the mention of sabayon out17:30
nubaesaving the content so it can be put back in later when it works17:30
sbalneavAhmuck: Dude, you hang in the channel, you're on the mailing list, and you talk to us.  You're not *outside*, you're *already in* :)17:33
sbalneavPeople think it's *hard* to join a project like like edubuntu, or LTSP.  All it takes is willingness to do some work.  That's how I joined LTSP...17:35
sbalneavI submitted some patches to jammcq back in 2000.  By my third or 4th patch, I was talking to him, and said something like "Well, I'm not an LTSP developer like you" and his reply was: "Dude!  You're my top contrubutor.  OF COURSE you're an LTSP developer." :)17:36
sbalneavThat's all it takes.17:36
sbalneavSo, if you're looking for an official proclimation:17:36
Ahmuckk, k, i get it17:36
sbalneavAll in favour of Ahmuck being an Edubuntu devel, vote now:17:37
Ahmucklol, no i'm good, i understand17:37
* sbalneav passes Ahmuck a beer17:38
sbalneavMac's have to change things JUST ENOUGH to make things.... interesting17:38
sbalneavI've been struggling for the last 2 hours trying to figure out how to create a group17:39
sbalneavJust figured it out.17:39
Ahmuckogra: where do i sign up to change the docs17:57
nubaeAhmuck: u have a launchpad account?17:59
sbalneavI think you just go to the edubuntu-docs team page, click on the "join" button18:03
Ahmuckgot it already18:03
sbalneavPerrrfect :)18:04
sbalneavMan, I can hardly wait to get home tonight and try some of these patches out.18:04
sbalneavAhmuck: what's your name on launchpad?18:05
sbalneavSo's I can bookmark you.18:05
sbalneavWhy don't you join edubuntu-bugsquad too.18:05
nubaesbalneav: where are the patches?18:08
Ahmuckdocs, bugsquad, & testing18:08
sbalneavWelcome aboard :)18:09
* sbalneav holds out zombie hands18:09
sbalneav"oooone oooof usssss, ooooone offff uuuuuuusssss"18:09
sbalneavnubae: unomomento18:09
sbalneavApparently some of the guys at lliurex have done some work, but it didn't get back upstream18:10
sbalneavcommon problem in the Free Software world.18:10
sbalneavSooooo, I'll look at THEIR patches tonight, see if that helps, and if so, I'll agitate to get 'em pushed upstream.18:11
sbalneavZap, it's LaserJock18:13
* nubae greets LaserJock18:14
LaserJockmorning all18:14
nubaethe patches don't look too deep... u think that's all it will take to fix sabayon?18:17
nubaelooks like ldap and log stuff mostly18:18
Ahmuckquestion.  i know that pardus has a management system for ltsp that is turn key and user friendly.  i've not looked at it, but if it was gpl would it be something that could be used?18:18
LaserJockAhmuck: what do you mean by "management system"18:22
LaserJockso Pardus has a sabayon-like app?18:23
Ahmucknot sure, i've not looked at it.  going to download it this afternoon at look at it18:23
Ahmuckfrom what i understand it's turn key and user friendly for school admins18:23
LaserJockgenerally I think fixing sabayon is the best way to go18:23
nubaeyah no sense in reinventing the wheel18:23
Ahmuckagreed, but if the wheel is already invented, would it make sense to change the flat tire?18:24
LaserJocknot to knock pardus but generally distro-created apps are not so great18:24
LaserJockthey're usually full of hacks and distr-specific code18:25
Ahmucki've used it18:25
Ahmuckin the past18:25

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