[00:30] Can someone tell me real quick a switch or utility that simply returns the number of packages (if any) that will be upgraded, and exits? [00:31] Lns: apt-get upgrade -s [00:32] Lns: I'm afraid I don't know if there's a gui way :/ [00:32] * HedgeMage is kind of old-school [00:32] HedgeMage: perfect! Thanks. No, I needed it for a script [00:35] Glad I'm a CLI type of person, then :) [00:37] me too =) [00:45] :) [00:58] have i mentioned I LOVE BASH?? [00:58] hehe [01:06] heh [01:10] * Lns waves to chan [01:28] hi everybody [01:31] hello, Ahmuck-Jr [01:44] Evening all [01:46] evening, sbalneav [03:09] LaserJock: Still about? [03:09] hey HedgeMage [03:09] hi :) [03:10] sbalneav: sure [03:12] Hm, ok [03:12] Got it to use Xephyr [03:13] it fires up, then the screen crashes, looking at the log now. [03:14] MainThread 2009/01/19 21:12:21.0587 (admin-tool): Got fatal error: sabayon-sessi [03:14] on exited with a FATAL ERROR (exit code 1) [03:14] sbalneav: did you fire it up with Xnest before? [03:14] No [03:15] It's definitely starting Xephyr, and getting as far as painting the wallpaper. [03:16] Hmmm, wonder where it creates the "user" it logs in as... [03:16] Might be an ".xession-errors" file there. [03:20] Yeah, Xnest bombs out too. [03:21] at roughly the same place? [03:22] Mine never got to painting the wallpaper I don't think, it was just the regular checkered X background [03:22] Hmmmm [03:22] Hmmmmmmm [03:22] XNEST_USR1_TIMEOUT = 10 [03:23] lets see [03:23] but I made a patch that would at least get me a loaded desktop [03:23] *then* it would crash shortly thereafter [03:23] what was your patch? [03:24] it's in lib/sources/paneldelegate.py [03:24] I can pastebin it for you [03:24] Interesting [03:24] ... [03:24] Checking for non power of two support: Not present. [03:24] aborting and using fallback: /usr/bin/metacity [03:25] So, it's trying to use freakin' compiz, and when it fails, and tries to fall back to metacity, that's when it pukes. [03:25] Soooooo [03:26] http://paste.ubuntu.com/107200/ [03:26] well, it shouldn't puke [03:26] How do we make the DEFAULT window manager to be metacity, I wonder. [03:26] I think you've got the same bug I do [03:26] because that's about where mine would fail [03:26] I think it trying compiz and failing is OK [03:27] I mean, I think we could probably have it default but I don't think it hurts to have it fail [03:27] ok, lemme try your patch, see if I get any farther. [03:30] great, I've forgotten my password in my VM [03:40] Hmmm, just looking at the paneldelegate code. [03:41] Your patch fixes that ONE problem, but if id's null, then there's a whole bunch of things that are going to puke. [03:41] Where did you find the python trace that put you on to that. [03:41] the debug log it dumps in root's home dir isn't.... very helpful. [03:41] you know it just kinda spat out one time I tried to run sabayon [03:42] hm [03:42] and I just grabbed it and hung onto it [03:42] heh [03:42] I don't know what I was doing I was restarting it so often [03:42] and I looked and there was a nice python trace and I was like "oh, now that's something" [03:42] so I kept that terminal open and hacked in another [03:43] I played around a little with trying to figure out which panel was causing the problem [03:43] so I had it spit out the IDs [03:43] Mine dies RIGHT when it says "switching to metacity" [03:43] lemme look [03:43] and it would do the top panel, the bottom panel, and then this empty ID [03:44] so this empty ID "panel" I suspect is something funky gnome is doing [03:44] know how I change the default WM to metacity? Something in the default session file, I'm thinking [03:45] hmm, somewhat tricky in this case [03:45] I know how to do it normally [03:47] sbalneav: setting WINDOW_MANAGER env variable is supposed to work, but I don't know how to get that to the sabayon session [03:48] Hmmm [03:48] well, changed DEFWM in /usr/bin/gnome-wm [03:49] now I don't get the metacity message, but it still dies. [03:49] right, I don't actually think it's compiz/metacity [03:49] I think it's in all the crap sabayon does at the beginning like the panel stuff [03:50] what I'd love to do is to be able to switch each of the sort of modules in sabayon [03:50] so pass --disable-panel to turn off paneldelgate stuff [03:51] that would help in debugging [03:51] well, actual verbose debugging output would also be nice [03:52] hold on, we should do this in #sabayon :) [03:52] lets go there [03:52] I think I say federico [03:52] saw [03:52] yeah, he was in and out === Meshezabeel is now known as Meshezabeel-away [05:59] have older machines (celeron, AMD) and am wondering which version of edubuntu is going to be best to use. (machines are below 512mb ram and would like to network them to home network [06:00] I would probably still go with the latest stable, Ubuntu 8.10 [06:02] LaserJock: use the regular CD and then do the edubuntu supplemental CD install afterwards right? [06:02] yeah [06:03] just pop in the Edubuntu CD it will automatically get detected and you'll have a couple installer options [06:04] the RAM is a tad low for optimal use [06:04] LaserJock: 512 being the minimum requirement? [06:04] it's not the minimum [06:05] but you'll most likely notice a decent improvement if you were to upgrade to say 1GB [06:05] that's my experience anyway [06:05] I've got a few older machines myself [06:06] LaserJock: Wow and I thought that the real ram dependent OS were the other guys... [06:06] nah [06:06] well [06:06] Linux makes good use of RAM [06:06] doesn't mean it's a RAM hog [06:08] I think the listed minimum requirements for Ubuntu is something like 300MB [06:10] marabout: I think the biggest difference in minimum requirements between Ubuntu and "the other guys" is diskspace [06:12] LaserJock: I guess that's where I got confused. I'd been hearing about Ubuntu and its wide application for under-developed countries, lack of resources, etc but i guess it was referring to just the fact that the OS is free... [06:12] no, I think it's also true otherwise [06:13] we have Xubuntu which is a fair amount lower system requirements [06:13] there's also lots of ways you can lower the requirements as well [06:13] like you can run Ubuntu on mobile devices [06:14] it's just that the default installation tries to be pretty featureful with apps that take resources (Firefox, OpenOffice, etc.) [06:15] Firefox is usually the big ram hog, that's the same on any OS :-) [06:16] LaserJock: I did have a question about the whole thin client or thin server thing. Since I want to connect these computers onto the home network how does the the "thin client" relate to me if at all. [06:16] well, how big is your home network? [06:16] how many machines [06:18] LaserJock: 4 macs, 3 PCs, 1 ubuntu laptop, ( + 2 more soon to be Ubuntu desktops) all running of a 2wire broadcom home networking device (modem.router) [06:18] *modem/router all-in-one [06:19] well, what LTSP (the thin client server) would let you do is set up 1 machine as the server [06:19] and all the other machines could log into that server and run off of it [06:20] so you only maintain 1 machine [06:20] you have all your files on 1 machine [06:20] you only need to backup 1 machine, etc. :-) [06:21] LaserJock: sounds very interesting. And enticing. I assume the server/machine would need to be pretty well beefed up (ram, clock speed, HD space, etc...? [06:22] well, it needs to be pretty decent but not horribly so [06:22] I would think a newish desktop machine with ~2-4 MB of RAM would do just fine [06:23] there are of course limitations and disadvantages [06:23] but having a single point to maintain is pretty appealing [06:24] LaserJock: any particular big disadvantages a layperson should know about? [06:24] well, 2 that I can think of [06:25] one is that it's pretty network intensive (as you're actually running everything over the network) [06:25] so for instance doing it over wifi can be pretty darn slow, most people seem to not recommend it [06:26] the other thing one is if you're doing a lot of stuff with 3D accelerated graphics [06:26] things like watching movies, playing games, etc. can tax the server pretty hard [06:27] there is a decent way of getting around that, but it's still a consideration [06:30] LaserJock: well I have children ranging from 14-2. the school age ones are doing online school. I am doing a lot of stuff online during the day when I am home. obviously the older ones want to watch a lot of tv, video web stuff but I am interested in doing it or a least trying it. What is the "get around" besides getting a faster, heavy-duty modem/router ( any suggestions there.../) [06:32] well, what you can do is have LTSP transfer certain programs at boot to the "client" machine and they run on the client [06:32] that's called a fat client [06:32] that puts more of the load on the client's CPU [06:35] LaserJock: that sounds good as the best candidate that I have right now for a server would either be a Mac G4 PowerPC tower (1.5ghz/1.5Ram) or a emachine T3406 with a celeron 340 processor [06:39] LaserJock: If I am considering this what install CD should I use for the would-be (future) server? [06:40] you need the Ubuntu Alternate CD [06:40] it has an install option when you boot up (I think hit F4) to do an LTSP Server [06:41] I would get comfortable with Ubuntu and maybe play around on the side with LTSP to start with [06:41] it's a really cool thing, but it can take a while to get it all ready to "roll out" [06:42] LaserJock: on the side as in on another machine or...? [06:42] yeah [06:43] I wouldn't try it initially on a machine that you really need to have access [06:43] like a print server or something [06:44] I always do stuff impulsively and the family is left without a printer for a week ;-) [06:48] LaserJock: well i just got two older machines last night from a guy off craigslist to use to kind of learn Ubuntu and set up edubuntu for children, etc. it appears that the emachine has 756 of ram and a 2.x ghz processor so I guess that has the potential to be a good server. [06:48] yeah [06:49] so just spend some time with those machines [06:49] once you get them setup and everything running it's usually pretty trivial to test out the thin clients [06:49] LaserJock: Should I do install as server and use it as regular desktop until I'm ready or just do a regular install (+edubuntu) and then do a server install when I actually want to go the server route [06:50] you can take a regular machine and network-boot it via LTSP without doing anything to the "thin client" itself [06:50] well, I'd go ahead an do the LTSP install [06:50] because you get regular Ubuntu desktop, plus the LTSP server bits [06:51] so if you're not actively using the LTSP it's no different than a normal Ubuntu desktop [06:52] LaserJock: not too familiar with "network-book via LTSP" terminology but if I understand you correctly i do an regular install and add an option at the install screen for LTSP services? [06:54] marabout: what it basically means is basically you can set the boot options on one of your non-Ubuntu machines to boot from the network [06:54] if your LTSP server is running it will boot from that and you'll get Ubuntu [06:54] if it's not running you'll get whatever the machine normally boots [06:55] LaserJock: wow that is very interesting. Ok so I assume that you would suggest using 8.10 install disc as opposed to 8.0.4.1 disc? BTW are they both considered LTS or not? [06:56] no, only 8.04.1 is LTS [06:57] I personally would try 8.10 first since you're not in an environment that needs long term support and super stability [06:57] i.e. a school [06:57] I think the fat clients support is also way better in 8.10 [06:58] I should warn you though, I'm not an LTSP guru by any means [06:58] I deal primarily with the educational apps and software maintanence side of things [07:01] LaserJock: Ok point well taken. Is there a primer where I can find out more about the edubuntu software and what is available and methods of use, etc.? [07:03] marabout: the list of applications on the CD for 8.10 is at http://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.10 [07:04] marabout: as far as LTSP you can check out http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html , also ltsp.org in general and the #ltsp channel [07:04] there is also the edubuntu-users mailing list, you can sign up from http://lists.ubuntu.com [07:05] LaserJock: i was just getting ready to ask about that. so i can find out about 'fat client' there as well [07:05] I think so [07:05] there's a bunch of LTSP stuff on the wikis too [07:06] marabout: I think this is a good spot https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP [07:07] it will probably have a bias towards school setups, that's a place where Edubuntu+LTSP is used a lot [07:08] LaserJock: Ok you have been a trmendous help. I am trying to connect the eMachine to the internet now and do the Ubuntu install. Now just a clarification. 8.04 versus 8.10. - 8.10 will be a 'better' product due to improvements, add-ons but 8.04 will just be more stable than its successor, correct? [07:09] it generally is more stable [07:09] the LTS thing means that it is supported for 3 years instead of the usual 18 months [07:10] generally people upgrade their machines within 18 months so it's not an issue [07:10] 8.10 has newer version of the applications and better support for the fat clients [07:11] if you end up having issues with 8.10 you could always try 8.04 [07:11] we'll also have 9.04 released in April [07:12] for normal home use I generally don't see the use of using the LTS release unless you have problems with the newer one [07:12] however the option is always there, that's the beauty of having a release every 6 months instead of every 6 years :-) [07:21] LaserJock: Ok wel I am now trying to get the emachine ready for Ubuntu 8.10. Thanks again for all your help [07:21] no problem [07:22] thanks for stoping by, you're always welcome [15:09] Morning all [15:10] good morning, sbalneav [15:20] Moooooornin HedgeMage [15:20] How's life? [15:21] Good. [15:21] We're trying to rally the troops around getting Sabayon fixed. [15:21] it's our biggest PITA at the moment. [15:22] ahh [15:23] Upstream's either comatose or on life support, or possibly dead, so we've pulled out the paddles, and are trying cpr. [15:23] Why sabayon? I've not really played with it.. I thought it was just another WM?? [15:24] No, sabayon's the desktop profile management tool put out by gnome. [15:24] If you're a teacher trying to "manage" desktops, then you need it. [15:24] oh... that makes more sense... what all does it do? [15:25] i.e. customize top and bottom panels, firefox defaults, gconf lockdowns, etc. [16:01] can i ask a question. i know when i looked at this and was having problems everyone told me read the documentation, but it looks like it's borken [16:02] !ask [16:02] Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) [16:04] lol [16:04] not quit the response i expected to a comment on saybayon [16:34] Ahmuck: So, what's the question? [16:35] sbalneav: LTSP does have printing enabled for local apps [16:35] the code was put in by Gadi [16:35] I remember cause I used it to enable printing on fat clients [16:36] nubae: ok, after I did some of the initial groundwork on the local apps, I haven't had time to persue it, so I think Gadi, warren, and vagrantc have done most of the busy work, but I'm out of thouch with what they've done. [16:40] sbalneav: the question was implied. why was i directed to documentation for software that was borken. i worked trying to get sayboyon to work for some time, and gave it upt [16:59] Who directed you to the docs? Maybe they didn't realize it was broken. [16:59] I didn't realize that sabayon was totally non functional until a week ago. [17:00] that's fair [17:00] I looked at it durning the Gutsy release, and it worked fine at that point. [17:00] * Ahmuck labels himself as PITA tester [17:01] yeah, Laserjock managed to get it to work [17:01] recently, by doing something [17:02] but maybe we should take it out of the docs, since it is far from finished [17:02] Well, unless something changed since last night, it's still broken [17:02] yeah he didnt upload the fix he did [17:02] We were working on it last night, and it's non functional in Jaunty. [17:03] had something to do with /home/sabayon being created [17:04] This is something new since last night? [17:04] and sabayon trying to start as a real user as opposed to system user [17:04] no [17:04] I know he did something with that, and managed to get it starting up [17:04] Well, we've got it starting, but the window crashes when trying to start up a desktop [17:05] oh, yeah :-) I thought u meant it didnt start up [17:05] as an educator tech, not having something stable that works would be a nail in the ltsp server idea. i understand buggy software, but software that is bieng listed and promoted that doesn't work creates an appearance that the entire project is broken [17:06] until it does work i'd suggest pulling it from the docs and promoting it [17:06] Ahmuck: unfortunately that is the case with a good 40% of software... sugar is a good example... its just very very Beta [17:06] pull the beta stuff, and put out what works [17:06] Ahmuck: So, pull it from the docs :) [17:06] or at least put it in the beta section [17:07] it's like saying here, this nice shiny car, but you only get three wheels [17:07] which is great if it's a tri car [17:07] We understand. [17:07] sbalneav: Ahmuck is not in the edubuntu-docs team, which he would need to be to do changes [17:07] Pull it from the docs. [17:07] So, become a member of the edubuntu-docs team :) [17:07] but he could edit and send your or my way [17:08] ogra would need to enable that I believe [17:09] * ogra looks up [17:09] did he apply ? [17:09] Ahmuck: ^^ [17:10] Morning ogra! [17:10] heh, eventing [17:10] *evening even [17:10] evening indeed [17:10] because i'm interested in the project i'll consider it. i'm knee deep in projects as it is. i've been working on getting local chapters for a regionl lug started and it's been taking tim [17:11]

ogra! [17:11] :) [17:11] I'm already up to my knees reading Sabayon code. :) [17:12] ogra: from the sabyon-list, someone frm another Linux project's send me a list of patches they made to sabayon: [17:12] https://lliurex.net/projects/valencia/lliurex-pool-ng/browser/ubuntu-mods/trunk/sabayon/debian/patches [17:12] Fairly extensive patchset. [17:12] fine, I'll edit the docs... [17:13] sbalneav, well, if it gets it working, now is the time [17:13] Sabayon certainly worked in the gutsy cycle, since i *fixed* it to work then. [17:13] was it changes to gnome that broke it? [17:13] There's been changes to X, gnome, and sabayon since then. [17:14] And, sabayon's "languished" unloved for a bit. [17:14] We'll try to change that. [17:15] strange thing is, I remember using it in Hardy and it worked ok to create exam profiles for my students [17:28] nubae: how would you edit them?. i might consider it [17:29] vi or nano or some such [17:29] just dont do what I did... open the opendoc in open office :-D [17:30] well, i meant in content. i feel i'm on the outside looking in, and i'm not i'd know how the project would want them editied. [17:30] just take the mention of sabayon out [17:30] saving the content so it can be put back in later when it works [17:33] Ahmuck: Dude, you hang in the channel, you're on the mailing list, and you talk to us. You're not *outside*, you're *already in* :) [17:35] People think it's *hard* to join a project like like edubuntu, or LTSP. All it takes is willingness to do some work. That's how I joined LTSP... [17:36] I submitted some patches to jammcq back in 2000. By my third or 4th patch, I was talking to him, and said something like "Well, I'm not an LTSP developer like you" and his reply was: "Dude! You're my top contrubutor. OF COURSE you're an LTSP developer." :) [17:36] That's all it takes. [17:36] So, if you're looking for an official proclimation: [17:36] k, k, i get it [17:36] :) [17:37] All in favour of Ahmuck being an Edubuntu devel, vote now: [17:37] ++ [17:37] lol, no i'm good, i understand [17:37] heh [17:37] Welcome [17:38] * sbalneav passes Ahmuck a beer [17:38] Arrrgh [17:38] Mac's have to change things JUST ENOUGH to make things.... interesting [17:39] I've been struggling for the last 2 hours trying to figure out how to create a group [17:39] Just figured it out. [17:57] ogra: where do i sign up to change the docs [17:59] Ahmuck: u have a launchpad account? [18:02] yes [18:03] I think you just go to the edubuntu-docs team page, click on the "join" button [18:03] got it already [18:04] Perrrfect :) [18:04] Man, I can hardly wait to get home tonight and try some of these patches out. [18:05] Ahmuck: what's your name on launchpad? [18:05] So's I can bookmark you. [18:05] Why don't you join edubuntu-bugsquad too. [18:06] https://edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs [18:08] sbalneav: where are the patches? [18:08] docs, bugsquad, & testing [18:09] Welcome aboard :) [18:09] * sbalneav holds out zombie hands [18:09] "oooone oooof usssss, ooooone offff uuuuuuusssss" [18:09] nubae: unomomento [18:10] https://lliurex.net/projects/valencia/lliurex-pool-ng/browser/ubuntu-mods/trunk/sabayon/debian/patches [18:10] Apparently some of the guys at lliurex have done some work, but it didn't get back upstream [18:10] common problem in the Free Software world. [18:11] Sooooo, I'll look at THEIR patches tonight, see if that helps, and if so, I'll agitate to get 'em pushed upstream. [18:13] Zap, it's LaserJock [18:14] * nubae greets LaserJock [18:14] morning all [18:17] the patches don't look too deep... u think that's all it will take to fix sabayon? [18:18] looks like ldap and log stuff mostly [18:18] question. i know that pardus has a management system for ltsp that is turn key and user friendly. i've not looked at it, but if it was gpl would it be something that could be used? [18:22] Ahmuck: what do you mean by "management system" [18:22] ? [18:22] sabayon [18:23] so Pardus has a sabayon-like app? [18:23] not sure, i've not looked at it. going to download it this afternoon at look at it [18:23] from what i understand it's turn key and user friendly for school admins [18:23] generally I think fixing sabayon is the best way to go [18:23] yah no sense in reinventing the wheel [18:24] agreed, but if the wheel is already invented, would it make sense to change the flat tire? [18:24] not to knock pardus but generally distro-created apps are not so great [18:25] they're usually full of hacks and distr-specific code [18:25] i've used it [18:25] in the past