[15:58]  * robbiew looks around for his friend, Mootbot
[15:58]  * james_w waves
[15:58] <TheMuso> Greetings all.
[15:58]  * robbiew waves
[15:59]  * mvo waves
[16:00]  * robbiew steps away for a min
[16:00] <robbiew> be back
[16:00] <evand> hi
[16:01]  * robbiew returns
[16:01] <robbiew> hi
[16:02] <robbiew> so...I see slangasek, james_w, TheMuso, mvo, and evand
[16:02] <robbiew> and liw
[16:02] <robbiew> :)
[16:02] <liw> yo
[16:02] <robbiew> Keybuck, cjwatson, and doko...here?
[16:02] <doko_> pong
[16:02] <robbiew> Keybuk?
[16:03] <robbiew> cjwatson: hello sir :)
[16:03] <cjwatson> sorry, dropped off this channel when I rebooted my server
[16:03] <robbiew> no worries
[16:03] <robbiew> just starting
[16:03] <robbiew> anyone know why Mootbot is gone?
[16:03] <robbiew> not that I miss it terribly :P
[16:03] <Keybuk> robbiew: yup, just finished a call with Ken
[16:04] <robbiew> Keybuk: ah..ok
[16:04] <robbiew> Keybuk: any clarity on provided?
[16:04] <robbiew> FYI - Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0121
[16:04] <robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0121#Agenda
[16:04] <robbiew> to be specific
[16:04] <robbiew> :)
[16:05] <Keybuk> robbiew: Ken is going to go back to Intel to find out what the agenda for the call will be, and what deliverables they expect
[16:05] <robbiew> cool...thx
[16:05]  * mvo mubbles something that he is also in the developer week :)
[16:05] <robbiew> heh
[16:05] <robbiew> sorry
[16:05] <mvo> np
[16:06]  * robbiew corrects
[16:06] <robbiew> slangasek, cjwatson: LTS looking good?
[16:06] <robbiew> (fingers crossed)
[16:07] <cjwatson> there was a glitch affecting upgrades from un-upgraded 8.04 systems (missing Priority fields in the Packages files on the CD, which broke python-apt; mvo added robustness to python-apt a while back, but that wasn't in hardy as released, and the missing fields were a bug anyway)
[16:07]  * robbiew assumes the 26 bugs still there will move to the next update
[16:07] <cjwatson> I fixed that this morning and Dave Morley has confirmed that upgrades are now good
[16:07] <robbiew> ok
[16:07] <slangasek> that does mean I've woken up to find that another round of ISO testing is required, but otherwise everything's good. :)
[16:07] <mvo> thanks for fixing this cjwatson
[16:07] <cjwatson> other than that slangasek has been emitting generally content vibes
[16:07] <cjwatson> (afaict ...)
[16:08] <doko_> had the gcc-4.3/libgomp issue fixed, I think it's pending review
[16:08] <cjwatson> doko_: it'll be for .3 now, but thanks for that
[16:08] <davmor2> slangasek: cjwatson: did you let server team know to retest?
[16:08]  * mvo a pending "fix" for the version number display for .3 as well
[16:08] <cjwatson> slangasek: any word on certification?
[16:08] <slangasek> davmor2: not yet, I've been up for all of 15 minutes...
[16:08] <cjwatson> davmor2: not yet, will do though
[16:09] <slangasek> cjwatson: I have partial cert results, will prod for the rest today
[16:09] <robbiew> we should also all admire cjwatson's beautiful work on the manifest list as well ;)
[16:09] <robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseNotes/ChangeSummary/8.04.2
[16:09] <slangasek> robbiew: 26 bugs> yes, those bug states will be sorted today
[16:10] <robbiew> slangasek: ok, thnx
[16:10] <cjwatson> mdz has recommended a few more changes to that manifest, but it's not too bad now
[16:10] <cjwatson> better not be, it took me nearly two full days ;-)
[16:11] <robbiew> is there a way to keep it somewhat up-to-date as bugs get addressed?
[16:11] <robbiew> thinking about how to make it easier
[16:12] <slangasek> rolling it into the procedure when archive admins copy SRUs is the only thing I see
[16:13] <slangasek> my fear is that this will make archive admins less inclined to copy SRUs due to the added time committment, though
[16:13] <cjwatson> me too, and we'd have to correlate it with the list of all updates that had been released so far in order to cope with cases where people forgot to do them
[16:13] <robbiew> ick...ok
[16:13] <cjwatson> it would have helped to have an authoritative list of changelogs that actually ended up in -updates relative to .1
[16:14] <cjwatson> I had to cobble it together from hardy-changes and the archive's status
[16:14] <cjwatson> (because hardy-changes also includes proposed updates that failed verification)
[16:14] <cjwatson> we could probably do some worthwhile scripting work before .3 to make the job easier
[16:14] <robbiew> ok.  just figuring you don't want to spend 2+ days doing the same thing for .3
[16:14] <cjwatson> even just "compare .2 and -updates, dump out all changelog deltas" would help
[16:15] <cjwatson> definitely not
[16:15] <robbiew> heh
[16:15] <cjwatson> I did add a .madison-lite/config in ~/point-releases/ on cocoplum so that archive admins can use 'm --config-file ~/point-releases/.madison-lite/config' to see versions of packages in point releases
[16:16] <cjwatson> might add that to the main config at some point
[16:17] <robbiew> ok, so hopefully no last minute surprises
[16:17] <robbiew> and .2 goes out on schedule
[16:17]  * robbiew probably just jinxed it
[16:17] <robbiew> moving on...Distro sprint team agenda
[16:17] <robbiew> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
[16:17] <robbiew> "agenda" is used loosely at this point
[16:18] <robbiew> more like topics of discussion
[16:18] <james_w> it looks like Scott's agenda currently :-)
[16:18] <robbiew> heh...I have some stuff in there
[16:18] <robbiew> well...just crossed out stuff
[16:18] <robbiew> lol
[16:19] <mvo> I need to add stuff there too, looks like the merge of the quirks code with lars is a good time
[16:19] <evand> Anyone know if Julian's whole team will be there, or just mpt?  I'd ideally like to sit down with kwwii and work out some bits on the new timezone map and installer slideshow, but can always do that online if need-be.
[16:19] <mvo> (and getting a chance to talk to people who know more about aufs)
[16:19] <TheMuso> Anybody got notebook audio issues, I'll attempt to take a stab at helping solve them.
[16:19] <robbiew> evand: I think the whole team is there
[16:20] <robbiew> evand: but you should probably check with kwii
[16:20] <evand> fantastic
[16:20] <mvo> TheMuso: I have desktop audio issues currently (but I guess that does not count :)
[16:20] <evand> will do
[16:20] <robbiew> mvo: unless you want to bring your desktop
[16:20] <robbiew> lol
[16:20] <mvo> eh ... no :P
[16:20] <TheMuso> mvo: Not for the sprint, but in general it doess. I'd be interested in hearing about them.
[16:20] <slangasek> that's good; I sent Julian a request earlier for some of kwwii's time to do up an icon for pam-auth-update, which is blocking having that in the System->Administration menu currently
[16:20] <slangasek> never heard back :(
[16:21] <mvo> TheMuso: ok, I will ping you after the meeting
[16:21] <robbiew> so I'll be working on the agenda, and having these items on the wiki will help
[16:21] <TheMuso> mvo: Ok no problem.
[16:21] <cjwatson> I may well have some server installer items, but I'm holding off putting them on the agenda for a few days to give myself a better idea of what I'm going to be able to solve before then
[16:21] <robbiew> just throw stuff in...I'll do the cleanup work early next week
[16:21] <robbiew> cjwatson: ok
[16:21] <cjwatson> I've added LVM installation for now which seems fairly likely
[16:22] <robbiew> cjwatson: steveg will be happy...thnx
[16:23] <robbiew> next on the agenda is the feature status
[16:23] <robbiew> I've notice some positive movement on blueprints/specs....thanks to those who've done tha
[16:23] <robbiew> that
[16:24] <robbiew> and to those who have not...eh hmm
[16:24] <Keybuk> "hmm"? :)
[16:24] <robbiew> please get them done, as I have my own "pressures" from above
[16:24] <robbiew> and we all know which way $#!t rolls
[16:24] <robbiew> down! lol
[16:25] <robbiew> next is the usual bug work reminders
[16:25] <robbiew> Alpha 4...Jaunty Targeted...buglist work
[16:26] <cjwatson> I was trying to work out at what point we could consider the list for bug-fixing to be "done"
[16:26] <cjwatson> there's certainly more to do, I don't deny that
[16:26] <robbiew> "done" meaning no more adding?
[16:26] <robbiew> or all fixed?
[16:26] <cjwatson> as in the equivalent of spec-in-review for more normal goals
[16:27] <robbiew> ah
[16:27] <cjwatson> i.e. green on your page :)
[16:27] <robbiew> cjwatson: sure
[16:27]  * robbiew will change that
[16:27] <cjwatson> well, I wasn't saying it should be green right now, just trying to work out where the cut-off lies
[16:27] <robbiew> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/jaunty-buglist.html
[16:27] <robbiew> right
[16:28] <robbiew> I've noticed that this list hasn't had much "love" from the team
[16:28] <robbiew> assuming these are important...hence their placement on the list
[16:29] <robbiew> do I need to start going through each one...and "voluntelling" folks?
[16:29] <Keybuk> the only bug assigned to me on there is old not because I'm lazy
[16:29] <Keybuk> but because nobody knows why it happens
[16:29] <robbiew> 15 foundations bugs without assignees
[16:30] <cjwatson> I was thinking it was more important to have more than 25 bugs there total
[16:30] <cjwatson> I think all the bugs there have a natural assignee; if it's OK, I'll go through today and assign them
[16:30] <robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thnx
[16:30] <robbiew> I'm not expecting them all to be fixed for jaunty
[16:30] <cjwatson> (several of them are me)
[16:30] <robbiew> though that would be nice....just that they have an assignee
[16:31] <robbiew> so submitters (and mdz) know we are actively working them.
[16:31] <cjwatson> bug 26694 is the only one I'm unsure about; who wants that?
[16:32] <Keybuk> _o/
[16:32]  * mvo assigns some to him
[16:32] <robbiew> Keybuk: mvo: thanks
[16:33] <robbiew> ok, so we can move on...don't want to harp on bugs too much ;)
[16:33] <robbiew> sponsorship queue
[16:33] <robbiew> dholbach mentioned it needs some "lovin"
[16:33] <Keybuk> I did some sponsorship this week ;)
[16:33]  * TheMuso freely admits he is lazy in that area.
[16:34] <cjwatson> *blush* I completely forgot yesterday, I'll do an hour before I finish up today
[16:34] <robbiew> Keybuk: thnx
[16:34] <robbiew> yeah...I realize there's a ton of other work going on
[16:35] <robbiew> but 1 hour a week should be doable
[16:35]  * evand intends to spend more time on it tomorrow and next week
[16:35]  * mvo did some sponsoring but it could be more
[16:36] <robbiew> ok...I'm done shaming folks into sponsorship queue work
[16:36] <robbiew> next is the EC2 stuff
[16:36] <robbiew> kudos to mvo for his work there :D
[16:36] <mvo> I played a bit with piuparts and ec2 but ran into issues (piuparts made it hang)
[16:36] <slangasek> heh
[16:37] <mvo> I'm experimenting with some alternative approaches
[16:37] <james_w> mvo: I didn't experience that
[16:37] <mvo> james_w: have you tried it too? we should talk about the way we did it after the meeting
[16:37] <james_w> mvo: sure!
[16:37] <robbiew> perhaps it should be on the Sprint agenda as well ;_
[16:37] <robbiew> ;)
[16:37] <mvo> the upgrade testing prototype works ok, but needs some lvove to overcome the 10g limit for ami images
[16:37] <mvo> robbiew: good idea
[16:38] <robbiew> mvo: can u add it
[16:38] <cjwatson> I'd really appreciate a demo of how the ec2 stuff works from a developer POV at the sprint
[16:38] <mvo> robbiew: yes, will do (after the meeting)
[16:38] <cjwatson> I think that would be very helpful
[16:38] <robbiew> cjwatson: I'll sync up with dendrobates
[16:39] <mvo> I could give a bit of a overview, but I'm by no means a expert on it yet
[16:39] <robbiew> unless mvo is an expert by then ;)
[16:39] <robbiew> lol
[16:39] <slangasek> kees gave us a pretty good demo last week, we could impose on him to do the same at the sprint
[16:39] <robbiew> right
[16:39] <evand> indeed, I'll second the request for an overview
[16:39] <evand> err third
[16:40] <robbiew> [ACTION] robbie to setup EC2 demo
[16:40] <robbiew> for the Mootbot that is not there
[16:40] <robbiew> lol
[16:40] <james_w> I've been looking at the other AWS stuff as well
[16:41] <robbiew> james_w: yeah...there's some neat stuff to play with
[16:41] <mvo> james_w: what specificially?
[16:41] <robbiew> BTW, the AWS charges are expensible
[16:41] <james_w> mvo: s3, simpledb, sqs
[16:41] <mvo> cool
[16:42] <robbiew> ok..so on to "Good News"
[16:42] <robbiew> cjwatson is on the Tech Board
[16:42] <mvo> congrats!
[16:42] <robbiew> it was a landslide victory
[16:42] <TheMuso> Congrats!
[16:42] <robbiew> lol
[16:43] <robbiew> Change is coming...lol
[16:43] <TheMuso> hehe
[16:43]  * slangasek holds out his hands for some change
[16:43] <robbiew> lol
[16:44] <robbiew> and a big thanks to Keybuk, mvo, liw, and james_w for UbuntuDeveloperWeek work
[16:44] <Keybuk> well
[16:44] <evand> congratulations
[16:44] <Keybuk> technically not
[16:44] <Keybuk> Tech Board members aren't inaugurated until noon
[16:44] <robbiew> lol
[16:44] <Keybuk> which means Condaleeza Rice is on the TB for now
[16:44] <cjwatson> but the vice tech board member is there from 11:30, right?
[16:44] <cjwatson> or was that "tech board member for vice" - so hard to remember
[16:45] <Keybuk> http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2009/01/20/remember-when-biden-was-president/
[16:45] <Keybuk> (context)
[16:45] <Keybuk> (11) Accordingly, from 12:00 noon until 12:01 p.m. (when Vice President Biden took the oath of office and became Vice President), Condoleeza Rice was momentarily the Acting President of the United States, our first African-American President.
[16:46] <robbiew> any other good news...or "OB"
[16:46] <james_w> Keybuk uploaded the world in his ongoing quest for udev improvements
[16:47] <robbiew> Keybuck: btw, that's actually wrong.  The swearing in is only ceremoniall, i.e. Obama was president before he took the actual oath.
[16:47] <cjwatson> the page above does quote a constitutional law professor saying that it isn't just ceremonial :)
[16:48] <evand> Apparently some constitutional scholars are suggesting that he retake the oath after the Chief Justice Roberts slip up.
[16:48] <cjwatson> Keybuk: (BTW, I wonder which noon, given that I don't seem to be a member of the techboard team yet ;-) )
[16:49] <robbiew> ah...but that's the beauty of constitutional law in the US...it's all about interpretation
[16:49] <evand> (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/20/MNAF15E20I.DTL)
[16:49] <robbiew> any way...so this meeting is over
[16:49] <robbiew> lol
[16:49] <doko_> thanks
[16:49] <evand> thanks!
[16:49] <TheMuso> thanks.
[16:49] <liw> merci
[16:49] <Keybuk> robbiew: also Biden was actually sworn in seconds before noon; also apparently it's custom to do the real oath in private that morning just in case of problems; etc.
[16:49] <mvo> thanks
[16:50] <slangasek> thanks. :)
[16:51] <james_w> thanks
[16:56] <ara> hey guys
[16:56] <davmor2> Hello
[16:57] <bdmurray> hi
[16:58]  * ogasawara waves
[16:59] <pedro_> hello everybody!
[17:00] <sbeattie> hey
[17:00] <heno> hey!
[17:01] <heno> welcome everyone
[17:01] <heno> #startmeeting
[17:01] <heno> ...
[17:01]  * pedro_ kicks the bot
[17:01] <davmor2> no bot
[17:02] <heno> First item: * 8.04.2 testing
[17:03] <heno> davmor2 has been doing ISO testing and cr3 HW coverage testing
[17:04] <heno> davmor2: the ISO testing is complete?
[17:04] <davmor2> stgraber: can you grab ltsp again it all got respun ta
[17:04] <heno> I guess not :)
[17:04] <davmor2> heno: No everything got respun
[17:05] <davmor2> live is cover currently about 12 tests left on alt
[17:05] <heno> davmor2: ok, are you around to help test the next round?
[17:06] <davmor2> already testing
[17:06] <heno> great, thanks
[17:06] <heno> cr3: what's our coverage currently on hardy.2?
[17:07] <schwuk> heno: reports from the last two hardy.2 images (amd64 and server) are on the wiki
[17:07] <cr3> heno: most laptops and desktops have been tested, and about half servers
[17:08] <heno> keeping in mind that the machines listed as 'Compatible' on http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/list/?release=8.04%20LTS are not essential to test at this point (but would be nice)
[17:08] <cr3> heno: ETA for servers should be today
[17:08] <davmor2> schwuk: is that with todays images?
[17:10] <heno> cr3: ok - you've worked around the issue of the two blocking machines?
[17:10] <cr3> heno: yep
[17:10] <schwuk> davmor2: no
[17:11] <davmor2> mind you not that much changed to be honest
[17:11] <heno> We'll need to do an actual certification run with the final images next week as well
[17:12] <heno> thanks, let's move on to:
[17:12] <heno> * Wiki migration progress
[17:13] <heno> davmor2 and ara have been working on this
[17:13] <heno> schwuk: is working on a new theme and macros
[17:13] <ara> I need to update the template in the spec with the latest davmor2's changes
[17:14] <schwuk> heno: the content should be copied across in the timescales we discussed.
[17:14] <davmor2> ara: you can take the template from http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/System/NetworklessInstall it just needs the image macro adding to the top I think it's correct
[17:14] <heno> schwuk: can you remind me what timescale that was? before the sprint?
[17:14] <ara> davmor2: ok, thanks :-)
[17:15] <schwuk> heno: yes
[17:16] <heno> So we have 3 broad categories of test cases now: Hardware, System and Applications
[17:16] <heno> where System is a bit of a catch-all for things like usplash, etc.
[17:16] <davmor2> schwuk: one thing is there any chance I can get my account upgraded to include remove and rename wiki pages on the new wiki please?
[17:17] <heno> from those cases we then build test plans for ISO testing or other uses
[17:17] <heno> we should run a session about this at the sprint
[17:19] <schwuk> davmor2: drop me a mail and nag me
[17:19] <heno> schwuk: do you have write access to the ACLs to grant access for davmor2?
[17:20] <schwuk> heno: if I don't I soon will have :)
[17:20] <heno> ok, great
[17:20]  * heno looks forward to seeing the new theme too :)
[17:20] <heno> any other items for the meeting?
[17:21] <davmor2> heno: would it be worth setting up a bug for qa docs to ensure everything is covered and can be tracked?
[17:22] <heno> davmor2: you mean an LP project to track QA doc issues?
[17:24] <heno> I would think we could use a wiki page for that
[17:24] <davmor2> heno: I don't know would that work I was think more like bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-runtime/+bug/284915
[17:24] <schwuk> heno: I've made davmor2 an admin on the wiki
[17:25] <heno> schwuk: great
[17:26] <heno> davmor2: a bugs list for the doc team?
[17:26] <heno> bdmurray: does that fit into the assignment list model?
[17:28] <bdmurray> davmor2: I'm not sure I understand what your intent is
[17:30] <davmor2> bdmurray: With the wiki change over I want to ensure that there is no missing cases/pages/info I thought that maybe a bug might work as it emails those assigned to it.  However if there is a more appropriate way I'm open to ideas
[17:30] <heno> ah, ok
[17:32] <heno> I think we'll just place a directory listing of all pages in Testing/Cases in a table and check them off when transferred successfully
[17:32] <davmor2> okay np's
[17:33] <heno> we should consider a project for the testcases wiki though to file wiki or general test case bugs
[17:33] <heno> schwuk: is here a project ATM?
[17:34] <heno> It would also make sense for theme and macro code
[17:35] <ara> schwuk: you were going to set up a project, weren't you?
[17:36] <heno> schwuk: if not, can you set up?
[17:36] <heno> you get an action for that :)
[17:37] <heno> anything else?
[17:37] <schwuk> heno: sure
[17:37] <cr3> checkbox package is in jaunty main
[17:37] <heno> yay!
[17:38] <ara> cr3: cool!
[17:38] <cr3> no major changes were necessary, just the license that mentionned LGPL which is wrong
[17:38] <heno> ok
[17:38] <heno> then let's wrap up
[17:38] <heno> thanks everyone!
[17:38] <heno> #endmeeting
[17:38] <ara> thanks!
[17:38] <sbeattie> thanks
[17:39] <heno> it's funny how the # command works for people, even when the bot is broken :)
[17:49]  * Lns grabs a donut and coffee
[18:03] <LaserJock> #startmeeting
[18:04] <Lns> So I hear Michael Scott is going to drop in for some inspirational words...
[18:04] <LaserJock> is the bot toast?
[18:05] <nubae> heh
[18:06] <nubae> well topic says no meetings scheduled
[18:06] <nubae> thats probably why its not reacting
[18:06] <LaserJock> right, probably because of the new calendar
[18:06]  * aseigo puts on his fly suit and finds a good wall.
[18:06] <LaserJock> ok, we'll go free-style then ;-)
[18:06] <LaserJock> I've updated the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[18:06] <LaserJock> please everybody have a look
[18:07] <LaserJock> hmm, I was hoping to get some other people here for the LP Teams bit
[18:07] <nubae> well we need ogra, highvoltage for those right?
[18:07] <Lns> I'm sure they'll be trickling in
[18:07] <LaserJock> I think I'm the only person from the Edubuntu Council here
[18:08] <LaserJock> nubae: and RichEd
[18:08] <LaserJock> ok, well since aseigo is here let's look at "Working with KDE" first
[18:08]  * morgs texts a reminder to highvoltage
[18:09] <LaserJock> so Edubuntu has traditionally been Gnome-based + KDE Edu
[18:09] <LaserJock> because we started out as an Ubuntu derivative
[18:09] <Lns> ogra says "i'm quite busy but can be available on request to answer one or the other thing"
[18:09] <LaserJock> Lns: ok, thanks
[18:10] <LaserJock> but since we've restructured into an "educational addon layer" we are quite a bit less dependent on a particular DE
[18:10] <LaserJock> so it makes sense for us to look at both the Gnome and KDE sides of things
[18:11] <LaserJock> we've had an edubuntu-desktop-kde metapackage around for a while but we've not done much with it
[18:11] <LaserJock> one of my goals for Jaunty is to make that roughly equivalent to edubuntu-desktop
[18:12] <nubae> well, there are at least 2 apps that are in main, which were forgotten in intrepid
[18:12] <LaserJock> that means doing some testing and replaceing Gnome apps with KDE equivalents where possible
[18:12] <nubae> kde edu apps
[18:12] <LaserJock> nubae: I don't think they were exactly forgotten, but yeah
[18:13] <Ahmuck> replacing them.  is there a standard on what they should do ?
[18:13] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: how do you mean?
[18:13] <Ahmuck> replacing gnome apps with kde apps?
[18:13] <Lns> Is it safe to assume that KDE/Ubuntu is as stable as Gnome, or integrated enough to where we won't have to worry about it so much on TCs?
[18:15] <nubae> well, one problem I see is the dependencies that the apps sometimes pull in
[18:15] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: I mean edubuntu-desktop-kde should be as much KDE as possible
[18:15] <nubae> could be upwards of 200mb in some cases
[18:15]  * jonathan1 stumbles in
[18:15] <LaserJock> Lns: you mean KDE apps on Gnome?
[18:15] <Lns> LaserJock: yeah, in general.. I'm no KDE expert by any means, but I do know that when launching KDE apps in Gnome, they tend to start all sorts of daemons, and i've had some issues in the past with that
[18:16] <cjwatson> nubae: as a KDE add-on, I think it would be expected that KDE users would likely prefer the KDE-based educational applications where available, and likewise for GNOME
[18:16] <highvoltage> can anyone paste in pvt what I missed? (sorry for being late- and thanks morgs for the sms)
[18:16] <Lns> I dunno though, Im just talking from my minimal experience with it
[18:16] <LaserJock> Lns: right
[18:16] <LaserJock> despite there being quite a bit of improvments in using KDE apps on Gnome and vice versa, there are still some issues
[18:17] <nubae> how would we do it then with the addon-cd?
[18:17] <LaserJock> so I'm sort of trying to allow educators who want to run Kubuntu to do that without downloading a bunch of Gnome
[18:17] <Lns> So how about running straight KDE over TC connections? Anybody have experience with that?
[18:17] <nubae> create 2, one for Kde and one for Gnome?
[18:17] <LaserJock> nubae: for now we need to just pick one, IMO
[18:17] <nubae> oh, so u're suggesting migrating to kde then?
[18:17] <LaserJock> I think maintaining 2 .isos is more than we or the release team want's to do
[18:18] <LaserJock> no, not yet
[18:18] <LaserJock> we can try to make things work on the 1 CD
[18:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you know ther "marketing" type person will want to split it at some point ;)
[18:18] <LaserJock> I'd have to talk with cjwatson and others perhaps about that
[18:19] <LaserJock> we have quite a bit of room on the Cd
[18:19] <nubae> but it doesn't stop the mass of dependencies
[18:19] <LaserJock> the problem is that right now we have to assume that a person has ubuntu-desktop installed
[18:19] <nubae> yah
[18:19] <cjwatson> there are some technical problems with putting both on the one CD
[18:20] <Lns> LaserJock: are you suggesting an add-on cd question at launch "Gnome or KDE?" type thing?
[18:20] <LaserJock> Lns: no
[18:20] <cjwatson> for an add-on CD, you need to assume a base set of packages or else you end up re-shipping the whole desktop
[18:20] <nubae> right
[18:20] <Lns> ah
[18:20] <cjwatson> for the educational CD, we currently say "right, let's assume that ubuntu-desktop is already installed, and only ship the additional packages needed on top of that"
[18:20] <Lns> can't it simply query the installed metapackages?
[18:21] <cjwatson> it would get more complicated if you might want to assume either ubuntu-desktop or kubuntu-desktop
[18:21] <LaserJock> right now I'm just saying that I want to develop edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde so that both Ubuntu *and* Kubuntu users can beenfit from what we do
[18:21] <cjwatson> Lns: you can hardly do that when building the CD image!
[18:21] <cjwatson> you need to decide which .debs to put on the CD ...
[18:21] <highvoltage> cjwatson: can't you ship all the direct dependencies for the applications, like the kde libraries and the gtk libraries, etc. so that if someone has either KDE or Gnome/Xubuntu they'll be fine?
[18:21] <cjwatson> highvoltage: we could, but it would be much bigger and would probably stop fitting on a CD
[18:21] <nubae> LaserJock: how would that work in practice though... what steps are needed to get to that point?
[18:21] <highvoltage> cjwatson: ah
[18:21] <Lns> cjwatson: what about a DVD? Or compressed image.. ?
[18:21] <cjwatson> I have no direct evidence for this, having not checked
[18:22] <highvoltage> Lns: debian packages are already compressed
[18:22] <cjwatson> Lns: .debs are already compressed, and I've had feedback in the past that many schools are using older recycled computers without DVDs
[18:22] <LaserJock> nubae: well, we need people testing and we want to work with KDE to make Kubuntu a better solution for educational users
[18:22] <nubae> ok, so u are thinking for jaunty+1
[18:22] <nubae> ?
[18:22] <cjwatson> I haven't checked the size constraints, so this is just a guess. However, it seems to me that two CDs (one GNOME, one KDE) might be more feasible - but it does have undeniable maintenance problems
[18:23] <LaserJock> well, we certainly can start for Jaunty
[18:23] <highvoltage> I don't think the DVD-ROM issue is much of an issue anymore. Optical drives don't last long, and DVD drives have been around for a long time now.
[18:23] <LaserJock> for now I want to not focus on the CD bit, that's got issues we'll have to think about in the future
[18:23] <nubae> we have the danger that people in countries where there is little connectivity will be left behind if we force them to download massive dependencies
[18:24] <LaserJock> right now the focus should be on what do we need to do to make educational users more comfortable on a Kubuntu desktop
[18:24] <LaserJock> nubae: sure, but I can't please everybody, everywhere, today :-)
[18:24] <LaserJock> so baby steps
[18:24] <nubae> :p
[18:24] <cjwatson> I got a recycled computer for my stepson with only a CD drive, just this weekend
[18:24] <cjwatson> that's in the UK which I think is still considered a developed country
[18:25] <LaserJock> aseigo has graciously agreed to come to the meeting
[18:25] <highvoltage> LaserJock: so what does need to be done? are we looking at a kde theme, is there some kind of integration that needs to happen, do we need to get gtk apps prettier on Kubuntu?
[18:25] <nubae> highvoltage: very few third world countries will have dvd drives as standrad
[18:25] <nubae> standard
[18:25]  * aseigo waves.
[18:25] <LaserJock> I'd like to turn the floor over to him for a minute to introduce himself and some ideas that he's been working on
[18:25] <highvoltage> hey aseigo
[18:25] <nubae> hi aseigo
[18:25] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I'll get to that after aseigo
[18:25] <aseigo> LaserJock: thanks =)
[18:26] <aseigo> ok, so .. for those who don't know me: i'm a KDE developer, lead dev on Plasma, work on kde libraries and various apps, and sit on the board of directors for our global non-profit foundation (KDE e.V.)
[18:27] <aseigo> KDE and education is a really interesting story that's evolved fairly organically over the last 5 years
[18:27] <aseigo> obviously, we have the KDE Edu project which has been interested primarily in the creation of small education-oriented desktop apps
[18:27] <aseigo> we also have the KDE Kiosk system for user/group profiles
[18:28] <aseigo> which provides UI lock down, config defaults, app menu customizations, etc, etc...
[18:28] <aseigo> basically "define what's allowed and what isn't, define the defaults are, link users and groups of users to those profiles"
[18:29] <aseigo> it uses a waterfall system so that you can assign people to multiple profiles, allowing creation of "generic" profiles and then more specific ones that get overlayed on the more generic ones.. etc.
[18:29] <aseigo> it's easy to use and has some very deep integration into, e.g. config dialogs
[18:29] <ogra> but is KDE only
[18:29] <aseigo> the combination of these two things, the edu apps and the admin friendliness, along with the overall desktop presentation ended up leading to some rather large deployments in the edu area
[18:29] <ogra> same as sabayon is gnome only
[18:30] <aseigo> ogra: there was nothing in FOSS doing anything like this at the time..
[18:30] <ogra> thats a big drawback of both tools
[18:30] <ogra> (just a comment)
[18:30] <aseigo> it's all based on the standard "INI" style configs, however, so isn't very specific to KDE
[18:30] <aseigo> but yes, having multiple systems Sucks(tm)
[18:30] <nubae> is there something that stops either being cross compatible?
[18:30] <aseigo> nubae: technically? no.
[18:31] <Lns> I agree - it would be really nice to see that kind of functionality cross-UI
[18:31] <ogra> missing backends
[18:31] <LaserJock> I think the primary problem is that they are nice *because* they integrate into the desktop
[18:31] <nubae> so we could pick one, and have it work for both?
[18:31] <aseigo> nubae: it would require implementing support for one system in both sets of apps, however
[18:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we have quorum now that ogra is here, fwiw
[18:31] <aseigo> the thing about lock down and profile management is that there is a lot of "hand work" needed... we have the benefit of KIO (something GNOME just recently started getting) which has allowed us to do protocol restrictions globally
[18:32] <aseigo> so it has been a bit easier to accmplish these things with the KDE stack than some of the other projects out there, due to the design decisions
[18:32] <aseigo> anyways ..
[18:32] <aseigo> deployments ..
[18:32] <highvoltage> did you just copy and paste that or do you type really fast? :)
[18:32] <LaserJock> aseigo: ok, so can you touch briefly on your latest blog posts on education, etc.
[18:32] <aseigo> the first Big Edu Deployment i became aware of was an 80k seat deployment in a university system in Brazil
[18:33] <Ahmuck> ltsp ?
[18:33] <aseigo> since then we've had Indiana in the states, Gran Canarias (a few 100,000 students, 40k seats), Brazil public system (50 million student, 59k labs, 8-16 seats in each lab)
[18:33] <aseigo> etc..
[18:33] <aseigo> so edu has become a HUGE segment for us, user base wise
[18:33] <aseigo> ergo, why we care =)
[18:33] <Ahmuck> standalone or ltsp ?
[18:34] <ogra> Ahmuck, ltsp and kde4 dont really go well together
[18:34] <aseigo> depends.. Gran Canarias is LTSP
[18:34] <Lns> Windsor Unified School District (which is about 5 miles from me ;) )
[18:34] <nubae> hang on, 50 million?
[18:34] <aseigo> Brazil is stand-alone, but shared systems (multiple graphics cards, keyboards, laptops physically connected to a system under the desk)
[18:34] <aseigo> nubae: yes
[18:34] <highvoltage> ogra: how so? is it perhaps kde4 can't scale down on it's fancy graphics?
[18:34] <aseigo> nubae: the entire brazilian public school system is serviced by KDE now
[18:34] <nubae> ok, thats good amo when selling ltsp next...
[18:34] <nubae> oh, not ltsp based?
[18:34] <aseigo> nubae: the deployment will be complete this year; so far ~40k of the labs are in production
[18:35] <ogra> highvoltage, afaik you cant disable all the composite functions, which makes it a nono
[18:35] <aseigo> nubae: no, it's not unfortunately
[18:35] <Ahmuck> wow
[18:35] <Lns> aseigo: what OS are they running?
[18:35] <Riddell> ogra: ?  of course you can
[18:35] <ogra> but i'm no kde guy so i might be misinformed
[18:35] <nubae> ah... must be a hell of a nightmare to maintain hten
[18:35] <aseigo> Lns: debian based Brazillian distro
[18:35] <ogra> Riddell, ah, thanks
[18:35] <highvoltage> aseigo: isn't that br-linux?
[18:35] <aseigo> ogra: all of the compositing can be turned off, in fact it does it automatically even
[18:36] <LaserJock> stgraber said there were some issues with KDE4 and ltsp, this is one thing we'll definately want to look into
[18:36] <Ahmuck> nice /me is kde fan
[18:36] <aseigo> highvoltage: could be; different regions have different companies overseeing deployment and support, though, so i' not 100% sure if it's the same distro everywher
[18:36] <ogra> it isnt
[18:36] <highvoltage> ah ok
[18:36] <ogra> we had several UDSes in spain
[18:36] <ogra> i met all the edu distro guys there, every region builds its own
[18:36] <aseigo> LaserJock: yes, there are some issues indeed. depending on the h/w it either works really well, or not very well. we're working on the latter with people who have such labs, though
[18:37] <nubae> yah, Spain is a bit mad like that
[18:37] <aseigo> hehe
[18:37] <ogra> its tied to the money of the local government so they are supposed to build their own distros
[18:37] <aseigo> yeah, the Gran Canaria project is just like brazil, only smaller
[18:37] <nubae> yep, the problem for them is finding new names :-)
[18:37] <aseigo> 40k seats, 300k-is people
[18:37] <aseigo> ok.. so, where are we going from here?
[18:37] <ogra> heard of guadalinex ?
[18:37] <aseigo> (you ask .. ;)
[18:37] <aseigo> ogra: of course =)
[18:37] <ogra> 500000 seats ..
[18:37] <ogra> :)
[18:38] <aseigo> ogra: students, not seats iirc
[18:38] <ogra> they doubled up over the last two yeras
[18:38] <Lns> and they say it's not ready for the desktop.. =p
[18:38] <Riddell> s/Gran Canaria/Canary Islands/
[18:38] <ogra> right
[18:38] <ogra> aseigo, seats afai
[18:38] <ogra> k
[18:38] <aseigo> Lns: that's just our cover story so MS/Apple don't REALLY start cmpeting against us ;)
[18:38] <ogra> 2mio students ...
[18:38] <aseigo> Riddell: right.. sorry =)
[18:38] <highvoltage> iirc aseigo went with when we did the guidalinex tour
[18:38] <aseigo> yes
[18:39] <ogra> though they extended beyond students its also the complete givernment desktops now
[18:39] <aseigo> i've been to spain a few times, and the Canaries once
[18:39] <aseigo> ogra: cool
[18:39] <ogra> spain rules wrt linux
[18:39] <ogra> its just sad that they have these silly local rules ...
[18:39] <Lns> SO.... ;)
[18:39] <aseigo> so.. http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/purpose-specific-containments.html
[18:39] <nubae> yep, they are building some great apps too, not just deploying
[18:39] <ogra> else they would be able to join forces and rule the linux world
[18:40] <aseigo> one of the use cases driving KDE4's desktop shell design has been education
[18:40] <aseigo> one of the things that has become really obvious in our time with educators is that the business desktop layout doesn't scale well across age groups
[18:40] <aseigo> Sugar is one manifestation of people trying to answer that problem
[18:41] <aseigo> one of the things i wanted to avoid was having to support a education specific desktop shell from the ground up
[18:41] <morgs> yeah
[18:41] <aseigo> that simply will never happen
[18:41] <aseigo> it is too much work and it's not generic enough to get enough testing and involvement
[18:41] <nubae> well sugar has its own people supporting it
[18:41] <nubae> we have enough deployments to keep us going
[18:42] <Lns> aseigo: so are you saying you're planning on bringing the benefits of KDE lockdown/profiles cross-shell? =)
[18:42] <aseigo> well, not really.. i don't have much say in what other people decide to do.. and cross-project outreach goes only so far, unfortunatley =(
[18:43] <aseigo> *but* what we did was make Plasma modular so that it is easily dismantled and put back together with various components (even on the fly)
[18:43] <aseigo> so the desktop itself is a few hundred lines of code on top of the framework
[18:43] <aseigo> (e.g.)
[18:43] <nubae> yeah plasma seems great for making mini learning objects
[18:43] <aseigo> and you can write in Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc.. making development fast, deployment simple
[18:43] <highvoltage> nubae: LaserJock also points that out quite often
[18:44] <aseigo> so in the Canaries, they had this wallpaper with colourful boxes and they manually placed start icons on these colourful boxes
[18:44] <aseigo> each box was for a different subject
[18:44] <aseigo> neat idea, stupid to have to do it by hand
[18:44] <aseigo> Plasma lets us do it "for real" with very, very little code
[18:44] <Lns> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(KDE) for anyone not sure about plasma (like me)
[18:44] <aseigo> and you get the lock down and config for free
[18:44] <nubae> can u explain that a bit further?
[18:45] <aseigo> ah, Plasma is the underlying framework for the KDE4 desktop shell (though apps like Amarok are also using it now)
[18:45] <aseigo> it's the "engine" on which we put together primary user interfaces, such as the desktop and panels that you see when you log in
[18:45] <aseigo> it's rather flexible and very modular... supports multiple languages for programming ... is SVG based for graphics...
[18:46] <nubae> that is cool
[18:46] <nubae> like sugar...
[18:46] <aseigo> it also supports third party widget systems such as Google Gadget, MacOS Dashboard and Enlightenment 17 Edje
[18:46] <aseigo> nubae: yeah, there are some similarities indeed
[18:46] <highvoltage> the MacOS widget support is quite cool
[18:46] <LaserJock> very
[18:46] <nubae> oh, that works already?
[18:46] <aseigo> so we've built MID interfaces with it, Amarok2 (obviously) and the KDE4 shell
[18:47] <aseigo> it runs on extremeley limited hardware; it's just fine n the N810, for instance
[18:47] <nubae> I take this all stems from karamba
[18:47] <aseigo> it's slow on the FreeRunner, though. boots faster than E does on it though ;0
[18:47] <aseigo> nubae: no.. we support karambas as well, and we certainly took some lessons from karamba.. one of the karamba devs works on plasma, actually =)
[18:47] <aseigo> but it's fairly different from SK itself...
[18:47] <nubae> k
[18:48] <aseigo> ah, and absolutely *everything* is a widget
[18:48] <aseigo> from the pager to the taskbar to the clock to the app menu, etc
[18:48] <aseigo> there is no "this is a panel thing, but this is a wiget"
[18:48] <aseigo> er, widget
[18:48] <aseigo> there is One Object Model
[18:48] <highvoltage> oh wow. I didn't know that *and* I read aseigo's blog.
[18:48] <aseigo> which means nothing is baked into the system that can't be as easily changed or swapped about as any other "desktop widget"
[18:48]  * ScottK has a teenager that loves fooling with widgets on her desktop.
[18:49] <aseigo> and yeah, we have neat things like a dashboard just like mac os
[18:49] <aseigo> ok, so what does this mean for edu?
[18:49] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we have to do EC now or we'll lose ogra
[18:49] <aseigo> well, it means we can, with relatively little effort (at least from the coding and artwork side =) and very, very little maintainance overhead (the bulk of the tech is in the framework, and that gets pounded on by traditional desktop users) we can create someting specific to various educational audiences
[18:50] <aseigo> we're also looking right now at edu management apps
[18:50] <LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, I think we'll do some email stuff, that way we catch RichEd as well
[18:50] <aseigo> there'll be an announcement soonish about a classroom lab manager (creat accounts, monitor work being dne, etc)
[18:50] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, good.
[18:50] <aseigo> it's functional, kde4 based and will be GPL
[18:50] <nubae> aseigo: something common across apps?
[18:50] <aseigo> we are also revisting the Kiosk configuration tool
[18:51] <aseigo> making something a bit more sane and extensible than the KDE3 one
[18:51] <nubae> that is precisely what educators I have spoken to ask for...
[18:51] <aseigo> nubae: yes, the manager is app agnostic
[18:51] <aseigo> but with all the power of kiosktool
[18:51] <nubae> so it would manage the levels at which students work, reporting, that kind of thing?
[18:51] <Ahmuck> appnostic
[18:51] <aseigo> this is our edu roadmap for 2009 (well, that and continue kicking ass and taking names with the kde edu suite =)
[18:51] <aseigo> Ahmuck: oooh, i like it
[18:52] <aseigo> our motivation is simple: we have a stupidly huge user base in the edu space
[18:52] <aseigo> as the opportunity has arrisen, we're very interested in working with edubuntu
[18:52] <nubae> yeah clearly the kde-edu suite takes the crown when it comes to the edu apps
[18:52] <aseigo> we'd like to have broad, 2 way communication between the educators that use edubuntu and what we're doing as we do it
[18:52] <aseigo> we'd love to have "early adopter" testers (actually, some have already signed up, so we're making good progress there already)
[18:53]  * Ahmuck volunteers testing lab
[18:53] <aseigo> and we *need* input from the people who will rely on the software as we design it
[18:53] <aseigo> i am a software developer and karaoke singer (one of them pays my bills, the other is best experienced with alcohol at the ready ;)
[18:53]  * alkisg wants ltsp to work out of the box in kubuntu
[18:53] <aseigo> i am not an educator
[18:54] <Ahmuck> where do we sign up for testing?
[18:54] <aseigo> and as such we really need to build a community based on sharing experiences and efforts that pulls in educators
[18:54] <aseigo> good question =)
[18:54] <nubae> exactly what I was saying yesterday
[18:54] <aseigo> so.. first order of action is that we'll be setting up a mailing list for those who want to get involved..
[18:54] <aseigo> it will not be a "deveoper list" though developers will be there
[18:54] <Ahmuck> i'm looking at setting up vidoe testing records like another distro did, where audio and video is recorded for user reactions
[18:54] <nubae> we must listen to educators.... too often apps are made without their input
[18:54] <aseigo> it will be a feedback, coordination, design list
[18:54] <aseigo> nubae: amen, brother.
[18:55] <Ahmuck> sign me up :)
[18:55] <nubae> sugar is just as guilty of this
[18:55] <aseigo> and i'd like to rely on you guys to figure out how best to coordinate the community around edubuntu already
[18:55] <aseigo> we also have wiki space, etc, but i'm sure you already have a lot of stuff set up and being used already
[18:55] <aseigo> i'll rely on your guidance in those matters
[18:56] <aseigo> i just had a meeting with the kde edu lead yesterday, and she's passing this around the kde edu community as well
[18:56] <aseigo> we won't be using the kde edu list for this, however, as the scope isn't quite right
[18:56] <aseigo> ok, i think that was my "quick" intro ;)
[18:56] <aseigo> oops. heh
[18:56] <highvoltage> wow, that was super-quick indeed! (for aseigo)
[18:57] <LaserJock> he kept it under and hour
[18:57] <nubae> great stuff...
[18:57] <aseigo> hehe
[18:57] <aseigo> me, loquacious? pah!
[18:57] <aseigo> ;-P
[18:57] <LaserJock> aseigo: thanks so much for dropping by and giving us that intro
[18:57] <LaserJock> very informative and helpful
[18:57] <aseigo> np... i re-assume my fly on the wall status unless prodded =)
[18:57] <morgs> nubae: Sugar does have the iaep (it's-an-education-project) ML alongside the sugar-devel list, although I haven't seen many educators on it recently. Not sure if they're just lurkers...
[18:58] <LaserJock> ok, so we should reall move on
[18:58] <nubae> morgs: I was at a deployment 2 days ago, and it was a fiasco in terms of presenting the activities that exist
[18:58] <LaserJock> we can have more KDE discussion later and on the mailing list
[18:58] <LaserJock> I'll try to keep people informed as I get info as well
[18:58] <morgs> nubae: yeah... OLPC != Sugar... and Sugar's been focusing on a small subset of activities...
[18:58] <highvoltage> so next up is Sugar status report
[18:58] <nubae> sugar itself as a UI is wonderful and everyone loves it... but the activities need lots of work... I've made notes, and they will be posted to IAEP soon
[18:59] <LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, right
[18:59] <LaserJock> morgs: how is Sugar sitting for Jaunty?
[18:59] <morgs> LaserJock: Here's the status of Sugar.
[19:00] <morgs> The stable version is 0.82.x which we got into Intrepid, although due to feature freeze and lag in debian's packaging we didn't get the final point releases in, resulting in a lot of support issues which I still haven't been able to work on much.
[19:00] <morgs> Current upstream development is an unstable 0.83.x release series,
[19:00] <morgs> leading to a stable 0.84.x set of releases.
[19:00] <nubae> under ubuntu a good 50% of apps dont even start up
[19:01] <morgs> We just hit feature freeze upstream, so it's definitely time to get it into Jaunty.
[19:01] <LaserJock> morgs: ok, so is 0.82.x bug fix only?
[19:01] <morgs> yes
[19:01] <LaserJock> ok, so those probably have decent SRU potential
[19:01] <morgs> The changelogs aren't well written, but it should be possible to log all the bugs from the changelogs and then SRU the point releases...
[19:02] <LaserJock> k
[19:02] <morgs> Debian (basically 1 guy) have chosen to stick with the 0.82.x stable releases, which means we haven't had 0.83.x development releases to sync.
[19:02] <LaserJock> right, so are you wanting to jump ahead of Debian on that?
[19:02] <morgs> Therefore we are now forking debian's packaging to package 0.83.x ourselves, so that we can get a decent release packaged before Jaunty feature freeze.
[19:02] <LaserJock> k
[19:02] <morgs> Then getting to 0.84.0 should be just bug fixes
[19:03] <LaserJock> ok, how about hulahop?
[19:03] <morgs> Right now, the packaging is just being done by lfaraone (formerly known as ffm) - a high school student - and myself.
[19:03] <morgs> And we're not managing much of it, but I'm trying to now put in a lot of effort.
[19:04] <morgs> LaserJock: hulahop got into intrepid-proposed, and the update works - I must still test on hardy, but I need to set up a vm for that.
[19:04] <morgs> The upload took a long time to get into *-proposed from when you did it...
[19:04] <LaserJock> ok, so 2 things: 1) we can send out a call for packaging volunteers and 2) if you need sponsorship just subscribe me to the bug and/or poke
[19:05] <morgs> Thanks
[19:05] <LaserJock> morgs: yeah, the archive admins were busy I think, that's why it took a while
[19:05] <LaserJock> morgs: anything else on the Sugar front?
[19:05] <nubae> one thing from the educator side is that schools want to be able to run a decent working sugar on a stick
[19:06] <Ahmuck> ?
[19:06] <morgs> sugar on a stick = liveusb
[19:06] <Ahmuck> why?
[19:06] <nubae> right now that is quite impossible, but how long do u think it will take before we have something decent?
[19:06] <morgs> Boot off USB, then you don't need to install Sugar, and you can run it on "windows"
[19:06] <LaserJock> stick it in any computer and you've got Sugar-on-the-go
[19:06] <highvoltage> to avoid network congestion / hard disk failure probably
[19:06] <morgs> and then take it home, and carry on using it there...
[19:06] <highvoltage> nubae: what prevents you to run sugar from a usb disk?
[19:07] <nubae> nothing
[19:07] <nubae> but its pretty unusable
[19:07] <highvoltage> ah
[19:07] <nubae> no networking, half the activities crash out
[19:07] <LaserJock> nubae: just app issues?
[19:07] <nubae> no word, no read
[19:07] <morgs> It's the easiest way to *try* Sugar, I'm not convinced it's feasible for every day use - people are actively working on it for Fedora
[19:07] <highvoltage> that's quite odd since it runs from flash on the olpc as well
[19:07] <nubae> its a ubuntu issue
[19:07] <morgs> nubae is talking about current Sugar on Intrepid
[19:07] <highvoltage> ok
[19:08] <morgs> We need work on Abiword to get it built with libabiword, otherwise the Sugar Write doesn't work
[19:08] <nubae> and all that depend on that
[19:08] <nubae> which is a lot
[19:08] <morgs> and tomeu is busy upstreaming our evince patches to try and get Read to be able to work too
[19:08] <morgs> those are core activities, and it will help very much to be able to package them for Jaunty.
[19:08] <nubae> yeah then we'd have something usable
[19:08] <LaserJock> morgs: ok, let's start a thread on edubuntu-devel about the abiword thing
[19:09] <morgs> Great.
[19:09] <LaserJock> just so I've got something clear to work on
[19:09] <LaserJock> I'm not positive about what the problem/solution is right now
[19:09] <LaserJock> but we can figure that out and poke/work were needed
[19:09] <LaserJock> ok, so lets move on
[19:10] <LaserJock> I want to briefly talk about Brainstorm
[19:10] <LaserJock> I sent an email to the edubuntu lists yesterday about it
[19:10] <highvoltage> as in, the unmaintained list of ubuntu ideas?
[19:10] <LaserJock> but I think it could be a very nice way for us to encourage feedback from contributors
[19:10] <LaserJock> highvoltage: exactly, but it's looking very nice and it has both and Edubuntu section and an Education category
[19:11] <LaserJock> the Edubuntu section only has 1 item right now
[19:11] <LaserJock> I think it would be useful to point people there
[19:11] <highvoltage> yeah
[19:11] <LaserJock> it also now allows for multiple "solutions" that people can rate
[19:11] <LaserJock> and of course there's develper feedback, etc.
[19:12] <nubae> by people u mean educators?
[19:12] <LaserJock> yes
[19:12] <LaserJock> anybody
[19:12] <LaserJock> so it's nice because it's free to us and we don't have to maintain it :-)
[19:12] <LaserJock> we can have app suggestions, etc. there
[19:13] <LaserJock> anyway, so I thought I'd just point that out and encourage people to use it
[19:13] <LaserJock> so http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/education/ and http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/
[19:13] <LaserJock> ok, moving on
[19:13] <LaserJock> the next thing on the agenda is "Should Edubuntu start accepting donations? "
[19:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: where does that come from?
[19:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: the agenda item?
[19:14] <highvoltage> yes.
[19:14] <LaserJock> I thik that's nubae's
[19:14] <nubae> think Im guilty
[19:14] <LaserJock> nubae: right?
[19:14] <nubae> :p
[19:14] <Ahmuck> donations for what?
[19:15] <nubae> I just think that the core devs do a lot of hard work
[19:15] <LaserJock> I think that was in the context of "Canonical no longer pays for an Edubuntu developer and there are users/organizations around the world that may want to help out"
[19:15] <nubae> and if we want better support in schools and such, they should be able to get donations at least
[19:15] <highvoltage> for edubuntu to accept donations it would require some kind of account, and lots of other things. or it would have to come to canonical. perhaps the questions would be /can/ edubuntu accept donations
[19:15] <Ahmuck> if i donate 10,000 do i get my own dev?
[19:15] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, that's part of it
[19:15] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: gnome has an adopt-a-dev program :)
[19:15] <aseigo> .. who will bring you coffee in the morning. =)
[19:15] <nubae> edubuntu is not affiliated with canonical as I understand it
[19:16] <highvoltage> nubae: it is quite, actually
[19:16] <LaserJock> nubae: well, I wouldn't say that
[19:16] <LaserJock> Canonical does a whole lot for us
[19:16] <nubae> ok, I must be missing something here
[19:16] <LaserJock> the point your making is that they don't support a developer
[19:16] <nubae> right, and the donations should go to devs
[19:17] <Ahmuck> who is a dev?
[19:17] <LaserJock> the *do* support us a lot with hardware (hosting websites, the .iso, etc.) and the whole Ubuntu infrastructure
[19:17] <nubae> so that there is motivation
[19:17] <Ahmuck> coders, testers ?
[19:17] <nubae> LaserJock: sure
[19:17] <highvoltage> I don't think we're in a position atm where, even if we were allowed to by canonical, administer funds and pay a salary with it. (just mho)
[19:17] <LaserJock> well, one *could* have a bounty system
[19:17] <nubae> highvoltage: it could be similar to how codeweavers works with wine
[19:17] <LaserJock> though that didn't work so well it seemed when Canonical tried it on Launchpad
[19:18] <highvoltage> ubuntu had a bounty system way way back. it used to work through launchpad
[19:18] <nubae> they donate to have certain wish list features included
[19:18] <Ahmuck> i have mixed feelings about this.  it is my opinion that real software development really starts happening when there is money involved, but the question is how does one decide who gets what?
[19:18] <nubae> based on who works on the items
[19:18] <nubae> I dont think thats too hard
[19:18] <Ahmuck> i've seen bounty programs
[19:19] <highvoltage> I think it's a bit of an insult to some programmers if you say "hey, do this that will take you 20 hrs to do, and I'll give you $10 for it!"
[19:19] <Ahmuck> a bounty/reward and if someone wants it develped further they put in the money and the first dev team to get to the goal?
[19:19] <highvoltage> I think that's why the bounty system failed
[19:19] <Ahmuck> ah
[19:19] <LaserJock> it seems to me that a better idea
[19:19] <LaserJock> is what Canonical does
[19:19] <nubae> highvoltage: the idea is that they'd get what they pay for
[19:19] <highvoltage> nubae: ok
[19:19] <LaserJock> you're a company or non-profit and you hire people to get done what you want to get done
[19:20] <morgs> mako wrote a paper on why bounties are negative for software development communities, I'll see if I can dig it up
[19:20] <LaserJock> so if somebody wanted to start a company/NPO that wanted to hire devs to work on Education then go for it
[19:20] <Ahmuck> i've used a number of apps and some of them have been real buggy.  as a result i've put in lots of time logging error messages, etc.  would htat be devlopment?
[19:20] <nubae> not really
[19:20] <nubae> fixing the bugs would be though
[19:21] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure that Edubuntu itself is really in a place, nor does it itself want to be in a place, to accept those sorts of donations
[19:21] <nubae> :-)
[19:21] <morgs> http://mako.cc/writing/funding_volunteers/funding_volunteers.html
[19:21] <morgs> http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/18/crowding-out-of-intrinsic-motivations-aka-the-bounty-problem/
[19:21] <LaserJock> morgs: thanks
[19:21] <highvoltage> nubae: I like the idea of being able to reward a developer in a monetary way
[19:22] <highvoltage> nubae: but I don't think that Edubuntu needs the burden of administering funds
[19:22] <morgs> For that sort of task, people seem to say that tshirts/swag/travel costs/hardware are better ways to give incentives
[19:22] <nubae> highvoltage: there I agree
[19:22] <highvoltage> can we perhaps think about it over the next week and talk about it again?
[19:22] <LaserJock> I've thought of like having Amazon wishlists somewhere where people can get a book for a dev
[19:22] <nubae> how about if the dev assigned to particular tasks is mentioned somewhere and gets funded via paypal or something directly
[19:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock: now *that* sounds like a good idea
[19:22] <nubae> LaserJock: right!
[19:23] <LaserJock> in that case it's "heah, I appreciate what you've done, thanks"
[19:23] <LaserJock> rather than "if you do X I'll give you money"
[19:23] <highvoltage> perhaps we could get amazon, etc to sponsor things
[19:23] <Ahmuck> i like the book idea
[19:23] <Ahmuck> or the swag idea
[19:23] <LaserJock> ok, so somebody start a thread on edubuntu-devel please :-)
[19:23]  * highvoltage nominates nubae 
[19:23] <nubae> but the devs that have contributed in which ways would need to be mentioned then
[19:23] <LaserJock> we can throw that around for a while
[19:24] <LaserJock> nubae: not necessarily
[19:24] <nubae> ok...
[19:25] <LaserJock> we can discuss it on the list
[19:25] <highvoltage> moving on?
[19:25] <LaserJock> ok, next item is "Which apps should we target for inclusion from Jaunty onwards?"
[19:25] <LaserJock> I *think* we're kinda taking care of that
[19:25] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'd hope that you would now, since you're the seed maintainer :)
[19:25] <LaserJock> nubae has sent some ideas to the list
[19:26] <nubae> well, what we need is reviewers
[19:26] <nubae> to check out the software and say whether it is worthy of inclusion
[19:26] <LaserJock> what I kinda want to do is let people who have an interest in a particular app be responsible for getting it into Main if they want it there
[19:26] <LaserJock> I'm more than happy to help that out
[19:27] <highvoltage> I can't find nubae's post :/
[19:27] <LaserJock> but I don't have time for "please include X, Y, and Z, kthanksbye"
[19:27] <LaserJock> highvoltage: it might be kinda buried
[19:27] <highvoltage> I'll find it later. What kind of ideas were they though?
[19:27] <LaserJock> we don't have a lot of time to get MIRs done
[19:28] <LaserJock> so I'd like to get people started on them as soon as possible
[19:28] <Ahmuck> anki
[19:28] <nubae> highvoltage: replacement for screem is the title
[19:28] <highvoltage> nubae: ah ok, yes I got that one
[19:28] <highvoltage> nubae: well, quanta will be a good replacement for that on the kde desktop ;)
[19:29] <nubae> yes and if installed on gnome it pulls in 200mb of deps
[19:29] <nubae> ;)
[19:29] <LaserJock> stellarium, gbrainy, salasaga, etc.
[19:29] <nubae> but really the point was, we need a coding app and a WYSIWYG app
[19:29] <LaserJock> I think if we got say 4-5 apps that cover areas that are currently lacking in Main I think we'd be good
[19:30] <LaserJock> bluefish is another one
[19:30] <nubae> yah
[19:30] <nubae> and we can't forget the server side
[19:30] <nubae> we should look at including mahara
[19:30] <LaserJock> anyway, I suggest each person that want's an app or apps in for Jaunty start a thread on their apps
[19:31] <nubae> along with moodle
[19:31] <nubae> and ejabberd
[19:31] <LaserJock> I'm more than happy to do a quick sanity check review to see what's likely to make it
[19:31]  * ScottK is a big fan of Quanta.
[19:31] <LaserJock> then we can narrow down our selection and start filing MIRs
[19:31] <LaserJock> sound good?
[19:31] <nubae> yup
[19:32] <LaserJock> the other aspect is the Universe app selection
[19:32] <LaserJock> on my TODO list is to make a bzr branch for seeds for our Universe selection
[19:32] <highvoltage> LaserJock: not that I have anything against going in main, of course, but we can still have universe packages as part of the edubuntu metapackages, right/
[19:32] <highvoltage> ok that kind of answers my question
[19:32] <LaserJock> no
[19:33] <LaserJock> we're going to do universe separately
[19:33] <LaserJock> so edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde will be Main-only for now
[19:33] <highvoltage> ok
[19:33] <highvoltage> sorry I didn't realise that
[19:33] <LaserJock> but we'll have another set of -preschool, -primary, -secondar, and -tertiary
[19:33] <LaserJock> well, it's just gonna make a mess if I try to not do that for Jaunty at least
[19:33] <Ahmuck> edubuntu-desktop-gnome?
[19:34] <LaserJock> Jaunty +1 we can try to figure that out
[19:34] <highvoltage> ok
[19:34] <LaserJock> I've already made a mess with the seeds as cjwatson knows :-)
[19:34] <LaserJock> but I need help on 2 things
[19:35] <LaserJock> 1) what to call the metapackages, edubuntu-* , edubuntu-extras-* are ones I've been thinking of
[19:35] <LaserJock> 2) we need to know what apps to put in the seeds
[19:35] <nubae> no extras
[19:36] <Ahmuck> what would extras be?
[19:36] <highvoltage> LaserJock: do you have a wiki page for that currently?
[19:36] <LaserJock> it's just extra edu stuff that's not in Main/on the CD
[19:36] <LaserJock> highvoltage: no, I don't :(
[19:36] <nubae> just a word to describe the packs
[19:36] <LaserJock> I need some help there
[19:37] <nubae> well shouldnt we put that on the main edubuntu page?
[19:37] <highvoltage> well we know there's going to be an edubuntu-desktop and possibly an edubuntu-desktop-kde
[19:37] <LaserJock> one aspect is that I'm desperately needing to focuse on my PhD so I'm trying to give you guys as much responsibility as possible
[19:37] <LaserJock> I'm likely to be down to 1-2 hr/day of *buntu time
[19:38] <Ahmuck> heh, i'd be focusing on the PhD myself
[19:38] <LaserJock> nubae: eventually
[19:38] <highvoltage> wow, I wish I had 1-2 hr/day of *buntu time :/
[19:38] <LaserJock> what we need is just a simple working list of apps that are in decent shape and are useful for people
[19:38] <LaserJock> highvoltage: yeah, well, it's a big cut-back for me
[19:39] <nubae> ok, well I already started listing the apps in edubuntu.org format for all edu apps
[19:39] <nubae> so I can paste that to the edubuntu wiki
[19:39] <LaserJock> nubae: ok, great
[19:39] <LaserJock> email edubuntu-devel when you get that
[19:39] <LaserJock> then we can start adding/removing things
[19:39] <LaserJock> and I'll get the packages uploaded soon
[19:39] <nubae> ok, but can people help me testing the apps out
[19:39] <LaserJock> sure
[19:39] <nubae> we shoudnt be putting all the edu apps in, just the ones that work
[19:39] <LaserJock> just start with a list
[19:39] <nubae> ok
[19:39] <Ahmuck> nubae: i can
[19:39] <LaserJock> we can then start reviewing them
[19:40] <nubae> ok, well I can make a big list, and we start knocking them off from there
[19:40] <LaserJock> right, good
[19:40] <LaserJock> ok, well, I think that's about it
[19:41] <LaserJock> I need to get going
[19:41] <nubae> cool, then can go and eat :-) its evening meal time over here
[19:41] <LaserJock> I'll be sending out meeting minutes at some point soonish
[19:42] <LaserJock> so .... meeting over
[19:42]  * Lns claps
[19:42] <LaserJock> thanks for coming everybody
[19:42] <highvoltage> *bong*
[19:42] <highvoltage> LaserJock: is lns an edubuntu-member yet?
[19:42] <Lns> yeah, wassa upa wita data
[19:43] <highvoltage> Lns: please put it on the agenda for the next meeting
[19:44] <Lns> highvoltage: ok
[19:44] <nubae> ah me too btw!
[19:45] <nubae> and I kinds should be a edubuntu-website member too :p
[19:45] <Lns> Should I take out the discussed topics from today?
[19:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, we need an EC first
[19:45] <LaserJock> Lns: yes, please
[19:46] <Lns> k, done
[19:46] <Lns> yikes...ubuntu.com seems real slow from my end