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loolHmm I wasn't here for some reason11:59
ograa good reason ?12:00
persiaThere is no good reason12:00
* lool waves12:00
* StevenK shores12:00
* persia quashes humor12:00
* Hobbsee hands out life jackets12:00
* ogra coughs12:00
loolFolks, I'll have to leave earlier today (need to go to the dentist for 2pm)12:01
persiaOK.  Let's get started.12:01
persiaAgenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009012212:02
persiaLast week's action items:12:02
persiaogra, Can we close the touchscreen spec item?12:02
persialool, You had an action item to finish specs.  Do you still need that?12:03
loolMy specs: done except for recovery-partition where I have to collect some input from 2 people12:03
loolpersia: it's ok I don't need if I can grab you to review the r-p one12:03
persiaAnd I had an action to make sure all the specs had a driver, which I put in the Roadmap.12:03
persiaSo, action items closed.12:03
* ogra would like to see StevenK reviewing the arm-image spec ... since he has to do half of the implementation :)12:03
persiaNext up: Roadmap.12:04
ograoh, i jumped ahead :)12:04
persiaNobody added status to anything as we thought we might last week, so we'll go through them quickly.12:04
persiaSince lool is leaving early, let's do his first12:04
loolSpec completed with your review; now needs approval and implementation12:04
loolSpec completed with your review; now needs approval and perhaps discussion with Foundation folks12:05
persiaOK.  You want an action for the discussion?12:05
loolTo see if we can make something useful out of lpia; otherwise we keep it as documentation and lpia remains in maintenance mode12:05
ogranot kernel folks as well ?12:05
loolpersia: If you like12:05
loologra: The kernel is orthogonal to the architecture12:06
loolIt's just named lpia for confusion12:06
persialool, Are you expecting to do it for next week, or is it a long-term thing?12:06
ograwe're good at that12:06
cjwatsonI have no problem with you guys changing the lpia compiler flags as long as you don't expect us to recompile the whole archive all at once12:07
loolpersia: I might or might not do it next week depending on availability, but I expect it will not be possible to change toolchain stuff before jaunty+112:07
* persia doesn't file an action12:07
loolcjwatson: I was expecting this should be deferred to jaunty+112:07
loolcjwatson: I had in mind to setup a meeting with doko and you to discuss these12:07
cjwatsonsure, or you could just talk to doko directly, he knows the field better than I12:07
loolcjwatson: Do we have rebuild testing on lpia?  I guess not12:08
loolMy fear if we change the flags is that we might have some bad surprizes when we actually need to upload random stuff at the end of th cycle or in upadtes12:09
loolAnyway, will bring it up with doko12:09
persialool, That could be probably be arranged on the ubuntuwire rebuild tester, with appropriate scheduling, if we don't mind a chroot'd buildd.12:09
persiaNext up: recovery-partition12:10
loolI don't think we'd mind12:10
loolTo finish spec-ing of r-p I need to try out superm1's USB image and discuss some implementation details with Evan12:10
cjwatsonlool: I thought we did but am not sure; infinity would know12:10
loolor ubuntu-installer at large; but I suspect a one to one will be more effective and he attended12:11
loolcjwatson: Okay thanks12:11
persiaGoing back to the order on the wiki page12:12
persiaoffline-installer: ogra12:12
lool(I dropped Adam an email)12:12
ograin progres12:12
persiaIssues, concerns, needs from others?12:12
ograhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/arm/build-arm-rootfs had a lot of community testing and i plan to make something like that the backend for the armel offline builds12:13
StevenKI thought the dailies would be the backend ...12:13
StevenKSpeaking of12:13
ograi have to try out the other arches12:13
* StevenK digs up the livefs build logs12:13
ograStevenK, thats arm-only images and the tool i write for that one will only merge livefs with kernel12:14
ograoffline installer will leave you with a configured system image12:14
ogra(user set up, hostname, timezone, kbd and language configured)12:15
StevenKBleh! evolution is broken12:15
ograwhile the liveimages will start into a live session12:15
loolStevenK: News@1112:15
ograand you have to run ubiquity12:15
StevenKI knew the armel livefs log would be a train wreck12:15
* StevenK tickles lool 12:15
cjwatsonStevenK: I already fixed that12:16
* lool giggles12:16
cjwatsonit's rebuildng12:16
StevenKcjwatson: Ah. I was going to check, but cool. :-)12:16
cjwatsonit wasn't evolution's fault directly, it was due to a Soyuz bug that's also being fixed12:16
ograany other questions for offline-installer ?12:16
StevenKcjwatson: It should finish in time for the 20090128 daily build? :-P12:16
ograpersia, ?12:17
ogradid you fall over ?12:17
persiaogra, No, just waiting for discussion to settle before moving on.12:17
cjwatsonStevenK: what's significant about 28?12:18
StevenKcjwatson: It's six days away :-P12:18
persiaunr-handling-jaunty: StevenK12:18
cjwatsonthis morning's livefs build got stuck on a lock, but elmo poked it12:18
cjwatsonanyway, the short answer is "I'm paying attention and sorting things out iteratively"12:19
StevenKpersia: In progress, waiting for code drops, etc, hand wave12:19
persiaStevenK, Need anything?  Blocked on anything?12:19
StevenKcjwatson: I know, I'm poking fun. :-)12:19
StevenKpersia: Yes, more hours in the day. Please fix.12:19
* persia adds "searching for another timezone" to the todo list12:20
ograStevenK, thats solvable by staying in motion12:20
persiamid-application-switcher: persia12:20
ograjust hop timezones12:20
persiaSpec is mostly complete.  I need to coordinate with njpatel to get the specifics for implementation.12:20
persiamobile-setup-wizard: persia12:20
persiaYet entirely untested.  Expecting to get initial results this week12:21
persia[ACTION] persia to get initial results for mobile-setup-wizard12:21
ograwasnt that just oem-config for small screens ?12:21
persiamobile-team-seed-management: StevenK12:21
persiaogra, Yep.  Needs testing though.12:21
StevenKpersia: I'd like to whinge about moving the seeds, but other than that12:22
StevenKI like them in -core-dev. They're happy in -core-dev. :-P12:22
persiaStevenK, Well, whinge all you want.  Delay as long as you like.  I think it's required to integrate with ArchiveReorg, but that can follow that schedule.12:22
persia(until there is no core-dev)12:22
persiaship-seed-for-mobile-images: StevenK12:23
StevenKMay require tweaks and such, but it's done.12:23
loolpersia: Let's have a last status column on the roadmap and stop bringing up the implemented specs according to their "last status"12:23
loolOr just a status column actually12:23
StevenKUnless someone wants to12:24
persialool, Once something is all done, I thought we'd just remove it.12:24
loolpersia: Hmm okay12:24
persiaNCommander, You're listed as ship-seed-for-mobile-images drafter: could you update the Test/Demo plan and get this tested so it goes away?12:24
NCommanderSure I can do that12:25
persia[ACTION] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it12:25
persiageneral-resolution-for-touchscreen: ogra12:25
ograxorg team notified me that the right evdev and hal changes are in12:26
ograspec pending approval12:26
StevenKpersia: Ah, excellent.12:26
ogragui implementation pending12:26
StevenKpersia: (ship-seed-for-mobile-images)12:26
persiaarm-softboot-loader: NCommander12:26
NCommanderUgh, hit a serious snag, since I no longer believe kboot can meet our needs, even if we were extensively to hack it12:27
ograNCommander, erm ?12:28
ograwould you elaborate ?12:28
NCommanderIt uses /etc/fstab vs. autodetection to find devices, and full access to the busybox shell is provided due to the nature of implementation (i.e., I can type ls at the kboot prompt, and it works)12:28
* NCommander is typing :-P12:28
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loolNCommander: I think you need to debunk kboot in your spec and move on to petitboot if it's any better12:28
NCommanderpetitboot is based on kboot12:29
NCommandersame problem.12:29
loolI know12:29
loolWhat I don't know is how much kboot remains in petitboot12:29
* ogra doesnt see the problem ... you can ls in initramfs as well if you boot with break= statement12:29
loolIf you tell me too much, just list petitboot as a non-option as well12:29
NCommanderI'll look at it, but getting petitboot down to 1.5MB is going to be extremely difficult12:29
loolNCommander: What matters is finding the best existing base to start from IMO12:30
ograad autodetection is fixable via a minimal initramfs containing libvolid12:30
loolOk it's cut off time for me; /me goes teeth rebrushing12:30
persiaSounds to me like this spec needs deeper review.12:31
ograwell, re-drafting at least12:31
persia[ACTION] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting" and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.12:31
NCommanderpersia, yup; I didn't know about the kboot issues when we started writing it, I only recently got some life (by heavy hacks, and building on dappar)12:31
persiamid-jaunty-launcher: StevenK12:32
StevenKRequires extra hours in the day to write up12:32
StevenKOr not sleeping.12:32
StevenKPrefer first option12:32
persiaselection-or-arm-images: ogra12:33
ograpending approval12:33
StevenKpersia: s/or/of/ ?12:33
persiaStevenK, Yes.12:33
ograpending review actually12:33
ograi'd like to get review from StevenK on that :)12:33
persia[ACTION] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images12:33
StevenKOkay, I'll read it tomorrow12:33
ograas i mentioned in the beginning, since he does the non gui tool parts12:33
persiamid-screen-rotation: ogra12:34
ograbeyond that the buildd side seems done to an exted12:34
ograand the gui side isnt started yet (n need kernels ...,. amitk .... )12:34
ogranot started yet (but its an afternoon of work to get a prototype, will do that before the sprint)12:35
StevenKSigh. Thanks for crashing, Tasque12:35
ogra(the last sentence was on screen-rotation)12:35
persiahildon-packaging-jaunty: persia12:35
persiaI need to write this.  Plan is to mostly do nothing, except if that breaks something, or if the Mer project needs something.12:35
persiamobile-applications: persia12:36
ograMer is arm related or arch independent ?12:36
* ogra didnt really get yet what thats for12:36
persiaogra, arch-independent.12:36
ograah, k12:36
persiaback to hildon-packaging-jaunty :)12:36
ograwell, question answered :)12:37
persiaMer is an effort within the Maemo community to build most of the Maemo apps on an Ubuntu base, and push patches back into Maemo to improve upstream.12:37
ogramove on12:37
persiaSo, if we want hildon later, we want to support them now to make sure upstream can be adopted well.12:37
ograsounds like a cool idea12:37
persiaYeah.  Lots of credit to those guys.  Take a look at their patch collection.12:38
persiaMoving on.12:38
persiamobile-applications: persia12:38
ograthought there might be clashes and overlap on a low level with moblin212:38
persia[ACTION] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates12:38
persiaOnce I've done that, and I get the results, I'll finish the spec, and we can adjust the seeds.12:39
persiamobile-spec-cleanup: persia12:39
persiaI've not spent any time on this recently, more focusing on current specs.  I'm planning to get back to that once the current specs are in better shape12:39
persiaAnd that concludes the Roadmap review12:40
persiaNext up: Wimax: we should start packaging this stack but need help from Kernel and Foundation folks for some bits (kernel drivers and DHCP patches); we also need hardware :-p amitk had started looking in some stuff12:40
persiaamitk, Anything to share on that?12:40
persia[LINK] http://www.linuxwimax.org/Download12:40
amitkpersia: We only carried wimax in hardy12:41
amitkand even that until v1.212:41
persiaIs upstream suitable for more general adoption or import into Ubuntu?12:41
StevenKActually, not even in Hardy.12:41
amitkdo you now want it for hardy or jaunty?12:41
amitkStevenK: only the kernel drivers bits, true12:42
amitkwimax upstream has pushed some dependency patches for input layer into linus' tree12:42
amitkbut the wimax driver itself is still outside12:43
persiaWell, do we want it?12:43
persiaAnyone volunteer to start a spec?12:43
persiaOK.  Let's pass on that for now.  If anyone wants to pick it up, please bring it to the next meeting.12:45
persiaAny other business?12:45
ograplayya, ?12:45
ogradid you have any topics ?12:45
ogra... doesnt look like12:46
persiaOK.  That's it then.  Thanks for attending.  Until next week.12:47
playyanope. not really12:47
ograwow, even with going over the specs we're 10min ahead12:47
* ogra liked that meeting, had a very productive touch this time 12:48
persiaActions and minutes from the meeting now available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009012212:58
persiaWho's here for the Java Team Meeting14:08
* \sh is here :)14:09
persia\sh, Welcome.  Don't usually see you at this meeting :)14:09
Koonthe more, te merrier14:09
\shpersia: yeah...it happened that I need to deal with java on ubuntu now and already found bugs...14:09
persiaToday's agenda (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting) has nothing special.14:10
persia\sh: Go add something quick if you have something, and we'll get to it after the roadmap14:10
persiaOK.  Roadmap is first14:10
\shpersia: we need to get java6b12 in jaunty and need backports14:11
\shoh sorry14:11
persiaI don't see robilad, so we'll skip that.14:11
persiaslytherin, MoveToUniverse14:11
slytherinnothing much. only bug logged was tuxguitar14:12
slytherinI haven't seen any activity on jboss bug, I will have to get hold of some archive admin.14:12
persiaKoon, maven14:14
Koonnot so good news, I'm afraid14:14
Koonfirst about maven packaging support14:14
KoonLudovic Claude disappeared since Christmas so implementation is stalled14:14
Koonfurthermore Torsten Werner, the debian dev that works on maven now, hinted that our implementation was flawed14:15
slytherinKoon: No he has not disappeared. He is working with Torsten in Debian.14:15
Koonslytherin: recently ?14:15
slytherinI have synced quite a few packages from Debian.14:15
persialudovicc came to the meeting on the 8th, and presented activity14:15
Koonthen it might be in a better shape than I supposed, they both didn't answer my recent emails14:16
persiaHe also discussed the specifics of Torsten's concerns, and his work to rationalise the two approaches14:16
persialog is at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/01/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.html14:16
KoonI'll have to get the log14:16
Koonmy other problem is that maven is probably not the main issue for large Java stacks support14:16
Koonthe key problem is what maven results in : dependency on very precise versions of JARs14:17
Koonas runtime-depends and build-depends14:17
Koonwe ship one, they want all of them.14:17
KoonI've been discussing with the upstreams, they clearly can't align their work to what we provide14:18
Koonthis, combined with the inflation in Java deps in suych projects, leads to a major build-from-source issue14:18
persiaNot only that, but significant inflation of installation impact.14:18
Koonyou basically have to package a few hundreds deps before starting to package any stack like Geronimo/Glassfish14:19
KoonI'm preparing an email to ubuntu-devel to discuss that question14:19
Koonyou're more than happy to join in the discussion14:19
persiaWe have a glassfish: is this just changes upstream?14:19
Koonit's a binary one14:20
persiaOh, that's why.14:20
Koonglassfishv2 in multiverse. Only the easy glassfish bits are in universe14:20
Koonlike apis14:20
Koonsun works on glassfishv3 in universe14:20
persiasathyan has been piping up in #ubuntu-java the past few weeks.  Have you been working with him?14:20
Koonthey have just hit the aforementionned walls14:21
persiaI see.14:21
KoonAfter turning the problem in all senses for a month, my best shot is to adapt some policies14:22
Koonbut maybe someone else will find a less disruptive way14:22
persiaSo maven not only has the issues Torsten pointed out, but incorporating it causes other issues to appear?14:22
Koonit's not really linked to Maven14:22
persiaIt's about upstream mindset?14:22
Koonyes. Maven just makes it easier to have that mindset14:23
KoonI have a couple of other non-Maven projects that have exactly the same problem14:23
Koon(they ship their build deps as part of the sources)14:23
persiaThis was a topic in Prague, and has long been an issue with larger Java projects.14:23
Koonit still is ;)14:23
slytherinAt some point of topic I even filed a bug in apache bugzilla about not shipping jars in batik source distribution. Never received a response. :-)14:24
Koonslytherin: if you don't take a distro-centric pov, but a product-oriented one, their appraoch makes sense14:25
Koonit's so much easier not to care about how your dependencies evolve14:25
Koonit's just *wrong* in a distro setting.14:25
slytherinNo. I don't agree. If I am providing source archive then I would expect users to read readme, download the required build dependencies.14:26
KoonThe Geronimo guys ship with hundreds of external JARs in their tar.gz... they keep watch on security issues for all of them and release a new version of their software everytime they update one jar to fix.14:26
Koonanyway... I'll send that email and see if creative ideas come from the thread14:27
Koonnext :)14:28
persiapersia, Killing Sun Java 514:29
persiaErm.  Didn't do anything at all.  I'll report something next week.  Sorry for dropping this.14:29
persiaThat concludes the Roadmap.14:30
persiaNo other agenda items from a refresh.14:30
persiaAny Other Business?14:30
slytherinI have one. Not exactly related to our roadmap14:31
persia\sh, ?14:31
persiaWe're done with Roadmap.  The floor is open.14:31
\shforget my request for now..I'll file bugs if needed..I'm testing 6u12 right now to check if my assumption is correct14:32
slytherinDoes anyone know how to disable auto update in azureus? I am working with merge. But as soon as I start the new vuze interface it starts downloading the latest version.14:32
slytherinI tried commenting some code but that has not worked out.14:32
* Koon just reads last week logs, apparently maven support is in good shape.14:32
slytherinI can not upload the merge unless this issue is sorted out. As a last resort I will have to mail upstream.14:33
persia\sh, OK.  If it's just a package update, a bug is better.  If there's impact to other stuff, we're happy to discuss.14:33
\shpersia: looks like (if I'm correct) that we need to backport or SRU new packages down to hardy14:34
persiaslytherin, Have you checked with jdong?14:35
persia\sh, sun-java or openjdk?14:35
\shpersia: hopefully only sun-java...I need to check openjdk when it's based on the orig java source14:36
slytherinpersia: no, I will check14:36
persiaslytherin, Dunno if he still knows, but he was a regular uploader for a while.14:38
slytherinpersia: will check with him anyway14:38
persia\sh, SRUs for sun-java are not uncommon, because we can't see it, and it sometimes has bugfixes.  openjdk tends to follow normal update guidelines.14:38
persiaOK.  Anything else, or shall we end the meeting?14:42
persiaWell, thanks for attending.  Until next week.14:42
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