NCommanderpitti, ping?00:09
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StevenKNCommander: If pitti isn't sleeping, I'd be suprised.00:17
NCommanderah, right00:17
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* Hobbsee wonders what the current 'central time' is.00:29
stgraberCET is 1:30am00:30
stgraber(in EST :))00:31
superm1Hobbsee, CST is 18:3100:31
stgraberhmm, what I just said doesn't make any sense ...00:32
StevenK% TZ=US/Central date00:32
StevenKThu Jan 22 18:32:19 CST 200900:32
slangasek$ TZ=CEST date00:33
slangasekFri Jan 23 00:32:51 UTC 200900:33
stgraberslangasek: isn't CEST Central Europe Summer Time ? making it non-existent at this time of the year ?00:34
slangasekmaybe :)00:35
slangasekthat might explain why it shows an hour earlier than if I type 'CET'00:35
stgraberprobably explains why the TZ in your date's output is UTC and not CEST as it should have been if the timezone existed00:35
slangasekwell, that's simply because /usr/share/zoneinfo/CEST doesn't exist. :)00:35
StevenKYeah, date has a "feature" if the timezone doesn't exist, then it must be UTC00:36
Hobbseehrm, OK, thanks.00:39
Hobbsee2am meeting. damn.00:40
StevenKOpenWeek isn't so friendly for the Australian timezones this time around00:40
Hobbseenah, release team meetings00:41
Hobbseeand what do you mean *this* time around?  They're not friendly *any* time around.00:41
StevenKI was trying to remember ...00:41
* StevenK mumbles something about caffeine00:41
Hobbseethey always start at 1600 utc or so.00:41
Hobbseeheh, caffeine.  If only that would work in this house... ;)00:42
refdocHi, I am one of the developers of a programme which is as a package in Ubuntu  The package you have is ancient. It is very frustrating for us as we get constantly bug reports for ancient stuff from ubuntu users,. The maintainer listed does not respond to our emails. What is the mechanism to get him/her removed and replaced by someone from us?01:16
cjwatsonwe generally maintain packages as a group in Ubuntu rather than having individual maintainers. You may be seeing the Debian maintainer listed.01:17
asomethingrefdoc: what is the package? do we inherit it from debian?01:18
refdocSo what shall we do?01:18
cjwatsonis there an Ubuntu bug filed about this?01:18
refdocGnomesword, libswrod diatheke01:18
refdocI think you inherit from debian01:18
cjwatsonas we do with the vast majority of our packages, yes01:19
calcrefdoc: has a bug in debian been filed yet?01:19
refdocone of our guys maintains for years now his own repository01:19
refdocnot sure01:19
refdocnever looked yet01:19
calcrefdoc: ok01:19
refdocbut people say even there they complain01:19
ubottuDebian bug 463207 in gnomesword "gnomesword: new version available" [Wishlist,Open]01:19
cjwatsonDebian is frozen for release at the moment, of course01:19
refdocIs it now always frozen? :-)01:20
cjwatsonno. :-P (Note that many people in this channel work on Debian too.)01:20
calcrefdoc: no it was not frozen when that bug was filed01:20
refdocSorry that was an attempt at a joke01:20
refdocso, what shall we do01:20
cjwatsonit would probably be fine for us to update, but it needs an enthusiastic Ubuntu developer to step up and do it. mail ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com which is a good place for that kind of thing01:21
refdocone of us maingtains his own packages for years01:21
refdocthey are good and work immediately fine on clean installs01:21
refdocok I will email there01:21
cjwatsonno offence to your developer but we do always like to make sure of things ourselves :-)01:21
cjwatsonsometimes people who work on the distribution have a better idea of what needs to be got right in certain areas, so it's always worth having a distro expert look it over01:22
refdocAye, no problem, but your packages are now two years out of date in this particular case01:22
calcrefdoc: if you don't get any hits from there after a week or so you can email me ccheney@ubuntu.com and i'll try to take a look at it (i'm pretty busy most of the time though)01:22
cjwatsonnot saying that's why the package is still at an old version - that's almost certainly because Daniel Glassey ran out of time01:22
refdocgreat calc!01:23
cjwatsonI can maybe ask around in debian-uk and find out if he's still active01:23
calci'm sure my father in law would like to run that program and an up to date version would be good ;-)01:23
calci'm supposed to be finishing up his system as soon as i get some spare time01:23
refdocwe are moving to 3.0 release, the version you have is 2.1 or 2.201:24
refdocok thanks a lot to everyone!01:24
slangasekcjwatson: ISTR he was presumed MIA except that he appeared in person at DebConf 7...01:26
calche came to debconf but doesn't actually update his packages, weird :-\01:27
arpuhello i have the problem with ubuntu 8.10 and intel  945GM01:35
arpuGL_RENDERER   = Software Rasterizer01:35
arpuGL_VERSION    = 2.1 Mesa 7.201:35
arpuGL_VENDOR     = Mesa Project01:35
arpui found a lot of posts and bug reports for ubuntu but nobody knows a solution01:36
arputhe only solution is to wait for  jaunty but i can not update my stable installation01:38
arpumybe some knows anything on this problem01:39
arpuone of the bug reports https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/25209401:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 252094 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i965, etc.] Poor graphics performance on Intel" [Wishlist,In progress]01:40
cjwatsonslangasek: so, apparently Debian has *finally* fixed the grub/xfs problems, and there's a decent chance that we can switch it on again in grub-installer at long last01:41
cjwatsonslangasek: how hard would a merge be? :-)01:42
slangasekoh, really?01:42
slangaseka merge of which package?01:42
cjwatsonturned out that (a) the kernel was fixed upstream in around .19/.20 to arrange that xfs_freeze -f doesn't return until I/O is complete (b) grub was doing xfs_freeze -f; write to filesystem; xfs_freeze -u which was completely broken, and xfs_freeze -f; xfs_freeze -u; write to filesystem actually works now that the kernel has been fixed01:43
cjwatsonor at least so I gather from a while reading Debian #23911101:43
ubottuDebian bug 239111 in grub "Install report: Successful install" [Unknown,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/23911101:43
slangasekvery hard, the repo is bollocked right now because of a bzr-svn bug :(01:43
calci just noticed that in intrepid there is a im status icon on the right side, why is it there when the same thing is in the tray?01:43
cjwatsonheh, what a title01:43
* jelmer wakes up01:43
* calc hadn't done a full reinstall in a while01:43
cjwatsonslangasek: yeah, I didn't expect it to be a straightforward bzr merge01:43
cjwatsonmaybe we can just backport that patch, not sure01:43
calcis the other im icon not visible enough or something?01:44
cjwatsonit was only in xfs_freeze.patch, really01:44
slangasekcjwatson: well it was meant to be, that's why I put it in bzr! :)01:44
cjwatsonyeah, but I knew about the bzr-svn problems01:44
slangasekjelmer: any progress on that bug which I will refer to with hand-waving because I don't have the number in front of me?01:44
slangasekhrm, it's not in my subscribed bugs list01:45
jelmerslangasek: maybe; I did fix one bug (for which I had a test case) related to pushing of unrelated merged trees, but there's another issue still remaining01:45
slangasekmaybe it got fixed and I wasn't watching01:45
jelmerslangasek, If you created the combined branch by merging the debian directory into the grub directory, it does not work yet - if you did it the other way around (keeping the tree root from the debian packaging directory), it should work.01:46
slangasekok, then it's going to not work01:47
jelmerthe bug # is 295416, btw01:47
cjwatsonslangasek: (and fjp just confirmed that grub/xfs now works on a system where he could previously reproduce the bug, if you're watching #debian-boot)01:47
slangasekjelmer: ah, new bug number that I hadn't seen before :)01:48
slangaseker, except I'm subscribed so apparently I have01:48
slangasekcjwatson: a one-time manual cherry pick, then?01:49
asomethingcalc: there are some threads about that on the desktop list, no urls handy though01:50
cjwatsonslangasek: yeah, I think so01:51
asomethingcalc: i believe that the idea is to make the fusa conrol global status for im ect eventually01:51
cjwatsonsounds doom-laden otherwise01:52
calcasomething: doesn02:10
calcasomething: doesn't sound particularly useful since the IM app is already in the tray02:10
arpure hi i think i found the problem  Virtual 2560 1888 without them all works fine02:10
calcasomething: perhaps more gnome crack? :)02:10
calcasomething: and the im app (pidgin or telepathy) is already essentially global setting anyway02:11
* calc has 5 or 6 im protocols running in pidgin and only has one status setting for them02:12
asomethingcalc: I think it's an Ubuntu patch http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/23302:19
calcasomething: yes, but ubuntu gnome crack ;-)02:22
asomethingcalc: don't you mean innovation? ;-)02:23
calcasomething: useless innovation, unless something hasn't been hooked up properly and is just buggy02:24
calci have within 3in of the corner a second IM status icon02:25
calcthat actually does what it is supposed to... control the IM program02:25
calcthe screenshot you posted apparently has no running IM client, or something else weird02:25
calcits not in the tray02:25
calctedg: ping02:26
* calc thinks he will just delete it02:33
calcyea that works better :)02:33
slangasekbetter than what?02:38
calcslangasek: better than a lot of wasted corner screen real estate02:41
* calc now has the calendar there which he uses much more often than a duplicated IM status widget02:41
slangasekoh?  I still have plenty of real estate to spare on my toolbar, so. :)02:42
calci never use fusa and don't need a duplicate im applet so it was completely useless02:44
* calc wishes someone would fix the clock applet to have radar map support, then i could throw out gweather02:46
TheMusodtchen: I'd be interested in your thoughts re bug 235007, since a quirk already exists for this in upstream alsa, and users are reporting 3stack as a better option...03:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 235007 in linux "no sound on Toshiba L40-139" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/23500703:44
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NCommanderhey cjwatson04:41
bluesmokehey RAOF05:10
bluesmokeRAOF: you ever get compiz++ working?05:10
bluesmokethe snap port is fixed now05:10
RAOFFor values of "working" equal to "able to move windows without decoration", yes.05:11
bluesmokewell that's creepy to see, snap only stops the window from moving, not the decoration05:12
bluesmokeonestone must not have noticed (he fixed it) because he uses kde-window-decorator which does reparenting05:13
bluesmokeRAOF: Just build libcompizconfig and compizconfig-python so you can use the ccp plugin and ccsm05:13
RAOFBoth from compiz++ branch, I take it.05:13
bluesmokeI have a feeling you're missing a plugin dependency there or something05:13
bluesmokeand make sure you set PYTHONPATH to point to the compiz++ version when you run ccsm05:13
RAOFOr just install it systemwide!05:14
bluesmokeI'm about to, it's usable now05:14
RAOFI might get myself a working GL stack and give it another whirl then.05:15
* RAOF wishes nvidia was as fast as nouveau.05:15
bluesmokeRAOF: If you use kde-window-decorator you just need good RenderAccel and Composite :)05:15
RAOFWell, I've got me _that_.05:16
bluesmokeAlthough I dunno if even the minimize plugin works without opengl05:16
bluesmokebut move, resize, and snap should work :)05:16
bluesmokeActually with Composite you can use gtk-window-decorator, kwd is only needed if you don't want to use Composite05:17
bluesmokeonestone is apparently working on a plugin to handle viewport changes that will work without composite and then other plugins (wall, cube) can plug into it to provide composited and opengl effects to switching05:17
RAOFWouldn't that require you to not unmap the windows on viewport change?  How does that fly with lack of composite?05:19
bluesmokeeh? they just go offscreen like they do now05:20
bluesmokeviewports were not designed with composited desktops in mind05:21
RAOFHm.  There appears to be a compiz++ branch of only libcompizconfig.05:22
bluesmokeRAOF: oh, right, you just have to build the python bindings against that one05:24
bluesmokethe ABI changed, not the API05:24
RAOFHm.  How much do I care about protobufs?05:26
bluesmokeI haven't done any benchmarks but if compiz++ gains support for it that should solve most of our startup time problems05:28
bluesmokenot much, I guess05:28
bluesmokeI built it because it was cool though :)05:28
RAOFHurrah for name mangling!  That configure.ac check is a thing of beauty. :l05:29
dholbachgood morning05:37
TheMusoHey dholbach .05:38
TheMusodholbach: Re sound volume profiles, its not possible afaik.05:38
dholbachhi TheMuso05:39
dholbachTheMuso: that's fine, alsactl will do what I want to do :)05:39
TheMusodholbach: I thought as much, but I don't know of a GUI equivalent.05:39
dholbachah OK05:40
dholbachthanks TheMuso05:40
RAOFbluesmoke: So, that kind of works.  Still no decoration, though ;)05:44
bluesmokeRAOF: You've got the plugin loaded and you're running the right gtk-window-decorator?05:45
bluesmokeRAOF: Perhaps try kde-window-decorator05:45
RAOFOh, yeah.  There we go.05:48
RAOFbluesmoke: Hm.  Doesn't actually seem that composite's working.05:48
* bluesmoke blames your driver05:49
bluesmokeapparently intel, fglrx, ati, and nvidia work fine05:49
RAOFThis has been tested with Composite !OpenGL?05:52
bluesmokeRAOF: I think I screwed up and loaded that combo once, yes :P05:56
RAOFkde4-window-decorator works, but there 'aint no composite.05:56
bluesmokeok, i see what you mean05:57
bluesmokeApparently Composite doesn't have an XRender internal system, dunno how I missed that05:57
bluesmokeRAOF: Hey, you need a fun project? :)05:58
* RAOF is fairly sure his definition of "fun" does not accomodate adding an XRender backend to compiz.05:58
RAOFBut I'll put it on the list, right after "Learn Portugese" :P05:58
bluesmokeRAOF: Looks pretty straightforward, really06:04
bluesmokeIf you know XRender, anyway06:04
bluesmokeThe composite plugin handles basically everything, you just have to hook into it and draw stuff06:04
calcbug 320351 (new gnome crack of the day)06:18
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320351 in gnome-applets "gweather: city options were radically reduced to uselessness" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32035106:19
* calc should start a blog so he can have a gnome crack of the day meme on it ;-)06:20
* calc digs in svn to see if there is a reason why they did this06:20
* ScottK thought reduced options were a Gnome feature?06:21
calcbecause all cities are small enough the weather is the same everywhere :)06:22
calci found the commit i think06:23
calcrev 518 of libgweather06:23
calcDon't worry about sub-city locations; people generally aren't going to know which of the locations is closest to them, and the weather reports from all of them should be basically the same anyway.06:23
calcbahaha, yea this is true of a city that is 4000 sq km06:23
brycecalc, ick06:32
calcgenerally cities only have one weather station if any at all unless they are very large cities, in which case the weather is likely not to be the same06:41
calchouston is somewhere in the range of 4000 sq km and has 6 stations (maybe more?) and now they don't even tell you which one it is much less let you choose which one to use06:42
mininathi ! i've been reading the "contribute" pages of Ubuntu's web site and i was wondering if there is any task managment platform for ubuntero ?06:43
calcsome of the stations listed as 'houston' aren't really houston but are in the houston metro area so get grouped that way06:43
calcstrictly speaking houston city limits aren't that big but the stations listed for houston are in the huge area06:43
mininatany task repatition platform for a devoted want-to-contribute ? :)06:49
brycemininat: welcome!  could you explain what you're looking for specifically?06:50
mininati've checked the contributes pages on the main site, developemnt team06:51
mininati checked the first stage, called "ubuntero"06:51
mininatbut seems there is no task list or any specific project06:51
mininatand i'm looking for one to start contributing06:51
mininatsee what i can do etc etc06:52
bryceah, most tasks are in launchpad.net06:52
brycemininat: what sorts of tasks in particular are you looking for?06:52
mininati like hacking my computer, i mean, read docs, looking solutions, scripts things06:54
mininatand as i want to go more deep in programming stuff06:54
mininatcontributing to my system community should be a cool starting point06:54
mininatthat would be a good wau to start according to you ?06:56
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Karnaugh[0123 09h27.42] real_name = Colin Alston07:22
Karnaughsorry about that07:23
pittiStevenK, NCommander: sorry, was away doing some login time measurements, took a while08:36
pitti!ping | NCommander08:36
ubottuNCommander: ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore08:36
pittiI meant to say "Please do not send contentless pings, just ask" :)08:37
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pittiprimes2h: hi09:17
primes2hpitti: Hello.09:17
pittiprimes2h: thanks for working on this09:17
pittiprimes2h: some comments:09:17
primes2hpitti: I have the new correct debdiff09:17
primes2hDid you get?09:18
pitti- package should drop the old *.icon files, since they are autogenerated now; the Makefile.am's clean rule should do that09:18
pitti- changelog should just say "renamed *.icon to *.icon.in and marked description as translatable" or so, instead of putting that long redundant list of new files09:18
primes2hIn fact I made .icon.in from scratch.09:20
primes2hthere were no .icon file before.09:20
primes2hyou mean this? CLEANFILES = $(icons_in_DATA)09:21
pittiprimes2h: well, there certainly must have been a place before where the C strings came from?09:21
pittiare they in the .svg files?09:21
primes2h.icon file are created during build and then are cleaned09:22
pittiprimes2h: it seems wrong to maintain a separate set of files, since that would duplicate the original strings09:22
pittihm, I don't know how emblem translations work09:22
pittignome-icon-theme doesn't ship *.icon files either09:22
primes2hI got that example.09:23
primes2has example09:23
primes2hstrings are taken from icon.in files that I created.09:23
primes2hI mean, it uses icon.in to create .icon files...09:24
primes2hstrings are probably taken from them,09:25
primes2hand finally .icon file are removed.09:25
primes2hThis is how gnome-icon-theme (and human-icon-theme) works (I'm quite sure)09:26
pittiprimes2h: so where did the English strings for the emblems came from before?09:26
primes2hfrom the name of the icon.. emblems-important.svg etc...09:26
primes2hIn fact the name was not in Capital letter.09:27
_maxdono if this is a bug or not, if i boot 8.10 x86 livecd, i can make changes to /etc/network/interfaces, add /etc/resolv.conf etc, and they are "kept" after actual installation.09:27
_maxhowever my /etc/apt/apt.conf was discarded.09:27
primes2hhave a look at Edit -> Backgrounds and emblems -> emblems09:27
primes2hI guess this... but it's the more probable explanation...09:28
primes2hI learnt this looking at gnome-icon-them09:30
pittiprimes2h: "Edit" where?09:30
pittiprimes2h: so whether it's from the file name or a field in the .svg file, I think the pot should be created from that one instead of a separately maintained .icon.in file09:34
pittiotherwise you'd always have to make the same change in two different places09:35
tkamppeterpitti, I have answered your question to bug 30881709:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 308817 in ghostscript "duplex printing through CUPS no longer works" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30881709:36
primes2hpitti: Edit in nautilus09:37
primes2hpitti: hold on, I'm on the phone.09:37
pittitkamppeter: thanks09:39
tkamppeterpitti, then I think you can pass through the 3 -proposed packages, cups, ghostscript, and foomatic-filters09:40
epicgoothose .a files in the dev packages use .so files. right?09:53
epicgooyou link blah.a to your program and program uses blah.a09:53
slangasekepicgoo: no, .a files and .so files are two different things; and this is not really the channel for learning how the linker works09:56
seb128pitti: did you try to talk to dobey? he's on #ubuntu-desktop and he's the upstream icon naming specification maintainer and working on gnome-icon-theme, he likely knows about those things09:56
epicgooI know...09:57
epicgoothey are different so?09:57
epicgooI am talking about the dev packages in ubuntu09:57
epicgooif you link a blah.a lib to your program (from libblah-dev), will the program use blah.so?09:58
epicgooor those .a files are just static libs09:59
slangaseka .a file is a static lib, yes.09:59
slangasekwith the exception of libc.a, which is a linker script for arcane reasons09:59
epicgoobut your program may or may not need the .so file09:59
slangasekNot sure what you're meaning to ask.  If your program is statically linked against a library, it doesn't need a shared copy of that library.10:02
epicgoolinux =/= windows10:05
primes2hpitti: icon.in files it's the way gnome-icon-theme works...10:15
primes2hpitti: and I think is the best way because it's more flexible...10:16
primes2hYou can choose the best text to explain the icon purpose.10:17
primes2hIt's not necessarily the same as icon-name10:18
primes2he.g emblem-CVS-controlled.svg you can choose "CVS controlled"10:19
primes2hand you can use capital letter10:19
primes2hthat it's missing in icon-name.10:19
primes2hthat is10:22
primes2hpitti: In fact if you look at gnome-icon-theme changelog you see that this kind of patch was made on 2004 to add emblem translation...10:25
primes2hpitti: By the way I found out another emblem untranslated (emblem-desktop) in 48x48/emblems/ 16x16/emblems/ and 24x24/emblems/10:32
primes2hI need to add it in the patch.10:32
=== asac_ is now known as asac
primes2hpitti: You need icon.in files because POTFILES needs to know where to pick up strings for po files...10:38
pittiprimes2h: right, but those could be autogenerated from the actual source, like the file names or svg header?10:38
primes2hNo, that's the problem!10:39
primes2hbecause now what you see on emblem name in the GUI is a sort of fallback because it's not set up for translation10:40
primes2hOr better, I don't know but I think it's more complicated...10:41
primes2hPOTFILES doesn't work this way.10:41
primes2hhave a look on POTFILES.in10:42
pittiprimes2h: re (sorry, we have the plumber here)10:48
primes2hpitti: no problem :-)10:49
pittiprimes2h: what I meant is: autogenerate .icon.in from the original source, then use the inltool magic to create the .pot, and throw away the .icon.in/.icon again10:49
primes2hAh, ok. It probably can be done adding code I think, but it could be a problem if, for some reason, you need to change strings name, in that case you should change .svg name10:52
primes2hand it's worse10:52
primes2h.icon.in files are present in gnome-icon-theme source10:53
primes2hone for each svg10:53
primes2hand moreover you should change linkname on each file where svg files are mentioned.10:55
pittiprimes2h: that's exactly what I was heading to; if you change the .svg's name, you have to remember changing the .icon.in10:55
pitti.icon.in is derived information, it shouldn't be something that has to explicitly be maintained?10:56
primes2hFollowing gnome-icon-theme changelog, you have to manage .icon.in manually (adding, removing, changing) and the correspondent Makefile.am11:01
primes2hThey are needed to mantain separated code from translation things...11:02
primes2hTo keep all clearer...11:02
pittiprimes2h: but if the .icon.in file is the definitive place for the strings, then they would need to be shipped in the gnome-icon-theme package?11:03
primes2hIn fact they are.11:03
primes2hHave a look at the source...11:04
pittiah, I see11:04
pittiand of course again with statically replicated translations11:05
pittithose spread faster than we can squash them *sigh*11:05
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primes2hpitti: In fact they are not replicated, because some strings in .icon.in are different from the svg-name (e.g. emblem-important.svg -> Important (with capital letter in .icon.in), and emblem-cvs-added.svg -> CVS added (in .icon.in))11:14
pittiprimes2h: ok, I see now11:15
pittiprimes2h: so, that looks fine then11:15
pittiprimes2h: mind to attach the current debdiff to the bug and subscribe me? I'll review/sponsor it11:16
primes2hOk, I just need to add emblem-desktop in 48x48(24x24,16x16)/emblems that I forgot to set up11:17
primes2hThank you! and what about changelog?11:17
primes2hDo you think it's too long with all icon.in files?11:18
primes2hIn my opinion it's needed to keep trace of changing...11:19
primes2hpitti: What do you think?11:20
pittiprimes2h: you could just say "Added *.icon.in: Explanation..."11:21
primes2hpitti: ok! Other changes?11:21
pittiprimes2h: should be alright; I'll give it another review once it's attached to the bug11:23
pittiprimes2h: thanks for bearing with me and explaining everything11:23
primes2hThat's nice, thank you very much for all.11:23
primes2hpitti: Just one last thing...11:24
primes2hThis patch expose also another bug already present in human-icon-theme, that kwwii told you yesterday...11:26
primes2hpitti: bug #31999111:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 319991 in human-icon-theme "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31999111:26
primes2hpitti: just to remaind you... :-)11:27
pittiprimes2h: let me ask Ken11:29
pittiprimes2h: ah, I guess I know11:30
pittiit should be named stock-mail, not stock_mail11:30
primes2hpitti: ask Ken, I am puzzled because the icon doesn't exist and I don't know where it looks for the name...11:33
primes2hpitti: I go away for lunch, see you later...11:34
=== lan3y is now known as Laney
mib_730riq17how to use autoconf and automake to change the configuration file of an existing project?12:17
mib_730riq17Please give alink so that I can read and know the use of autoconf and automake12:19
cjwatsonthe autoconf-doc and automake packages include extensive info documentation for those tools; 'info autoconf', 'info automake'12:20
mib_730riq17cjwatson: thanx12:20
cjwatsonthe autoconf documentation is also in /usr/share/doc/autoconf-doc/autoconf.html if you prefer that12:21
cjwatsonthe automake documentation is only installed as info, but is available online as HTML in http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/automake.html12:21
mib_730riq17cjwatson: do the change in configure.in file needs automake( it needs autoconf)..12:22
mib_730riq17cjwatson: thanx for the valuable links12:22
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: that depends on the project. Some do, some don't12:23
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: you should generally use autoreconf rather than running the individual tools12:23
mib_730riq17cjwatson: autoreconf thats a new tool I heard now???Is it installed along with autoconf?12:25
=== _steron is now known as steron
mib_730riq17cjwatson: I will try both the ways so that I learn all of the processes , thanx for all the info...12:26
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: autoreconf is in the autoconf package, and has been around for a long time12:26
cjwatsonit's documented in the autoconf documentation12:27
mib_730riq17cjwatson: OK12:27
mib_730riq17cjwatson: what are the general precaution should I take to edit the configure.in file of an existing project so that it does not damage the app or the process of installation of app...12:28
cjwatsonI would personally recommend keeping files in revision control so that you can easily check the diffs produced (e.g. bzr diff) and test extensively12:31
cjwatsonif you're using different versions of the autotools from those used to generate the previous files you have in hand, then the diff may be very large, and you may need to make changes simply to get it to work at all12:31
cjwatsonwith poorly-written configure.in files it can be quite a difficult exercise to modify them at all, I'm afraid12:32
cjwatsonand you typically end up learning rather more about the autotools than you expected :-)12:32
cjwatsonthe fact that it's called configure.in at all (rather than the modern name, configure.ac) is not a good sign to begin with12:32
mib_730riq17cjwatson: actually I have the task to update the configure.in so I have to take all the pain12:39
mib_730riq17cjwatson: anyways if you are new to something its always adventurous to learn...12:40
mib_730riq17cjwatson: what are difs , revision control and all those stuffs ??? do u have a link to the tutorial explaining all those stuffs..12:42
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: you can google for "revision control" as a first step and read e.g. the Wikipedia article on the subject12:42
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: the 'bzr' tool I referred to is http://bazaar-vcs.org/ and there are several general tutorials on that site12:43
mib_730riq17cjwatson: it seems that bzr has a bug that it does not support proxy with authentication so i think i have limited use of bzr :(12:48
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: #bzr may be able to help you check whether this is something you can work around12:50
cjwatsonthere were some old bugs about this but I thought they had been fixed12:50
mib_730riq17cjwatson: i tried #bzr but they confirmed that this bug has no way around and this is not going to be fixed in coming future.This was pretty rude I hope that I can help them but I dont have enough knowledge to do so :(12:52
cjwatsonI don't think it's rude for developers to be honest about their roadmap!12:52
mib_730riq17cjwatson: after being into 1 or 2 developing projects i agree with u...12:55
mib_730riq17cjwatson: can I get help from here if i am stuck during revision or i have to go to some other channel?12:56
cjwatsonthis is really not the best channel; I would recommend you look elsewhere12:56
mib_730riq17cjwatson: like...do u have any ideas?13:03
cjwatsonmib_730riq17: no, it depends on the problem you are having; please be creative :-)13:04
mib_730riq17cjwatson: OK thanx for ur valuable time...:) bye13:10
kirklandmvo: hi there, are you around?14:07
* pitti squashes his first pet bug14:19
jdstrandcjwatson: fyi-- I really liked HardyReleaseNotes/ChangeSummary/8.04.2. I hadn't seen that for previous point releases and think it is a great idea.14:20
pittislangasek: ^ that's a CD space present for you (bug 123025)14:20
ubottuLaunchpad bug 123025 in gconf2 "stop shipping static gconf translations, use gettext at runtime" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12302514:20
cjwatsonjdstrand: glad you liked it, it was a lot of work :)14:21
sorenpitti: How much space does that buy us?14:21
pittisoren: once all the GNOME packages are rebuilt, in the order of 100 MB uncompressed and 10 MB compressed14:22
pittiwell, that is, 10 MB on desktops (which has the pregenerated /var/lib/gconf/defaults/)14:22
pittion the alternates, where that tree is generated at runtime, I guess more like 5 MB14:23
pittibut still not to be sneezed at14:23
sorenCertainly not.14:23
dholbachhey soren: are you well again?14:28
=== azeem_ is now known as azeem
sorendholbach: Getting better.14:29
* dholbach hugs soren14:29
sorendholbach: I just got fed up with lying in my bed.14:29
dholbachI can imagine14:29
dholbachafter lying there, getting fed and everything, having read 35 books and stuff it must get tiring ;-)14:29
pittiapachelogger: argh, my cdbs upload got rejected, because 0.4.52ubuntu11 is already in the archive; you didn't commit to bzr14:31
apacheloggerpitti: I commited, I just didn't push14:33
PecisDarbshi people, when GNOME 2.26 will be merged into Jaunty?14:33
PecisDarbsin what date?14:33
pittiapachelogger: I'll fix it up, since I already pushed my stuff14:33
* PecisDarbs plans translation stuff14:33
apacheloggerpitti: ok, thanks ... and sorry for the inconvenience :)14:34
pittiapachelogger: ok, applied your changes and pushed14:35
=== Riddelll is now known as Riddell
=== ssweeny_ is now known as ssweeny
looltjaalton: Hmm you don't rm_conffile() /etc/network/if-up.d/mountnfs.orig?14:53
looloh sorry already covered in the bug's comments14:54
tjaaltonyes, it should be fine. worked here14:55
loolseb128: I don't understand what "[BLACKLISTED] libv4l_0.5.3-1" means in Bug 319975?14:57
ubottuLaunchpad bug 319975 in libv4l "Please sync libv4l 0.5.8-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31997514:57
seb128lool: it means the sync didn't work because for some reason libv4l is on the not-to-sync list14:57
seb128I just did some quick syncs because mvo asked one but I want to finish other things so I will not investigate that now though14:58
lool# ... due to orig.tar.gz mismatch:14:58
loolThat would be surprizing as I thikn I sponsored all the Debian uploads and requested all syncs14:59
bigonseb128: hi, what does [BLACKLISTED] libv4l_0.5.3-1 means?14:59
loolbigon: See above14:59
cjwatsonbigon: scroll up14:59
loolBeside it's a new upstream14:59
seb128bigon: hey, read the channel?14:59
pittilool: could ahve been a temporary measure; should just disappear from the blacklist then14:59
pittilool: we need to do those to unbreak sync-source -a, i. e. "sync everythign unmodified from Debian"15:00
seb128bigon: also do you have a bugzilla.gnome.org account?15:00
loolseb128: Mind dropping it from BL and syncing?15:00
seb128lool: will do later, I closed my shell on this box now and I'm in middle of something else15:00
* bigon should read his backlog indeed15:00
loolseb128: Ok; I'm reopening the bug then15:00
bigonseb128: yes l.bigonville@edpnet.be15:00
seb128lool: ok15:00
seb128bigon: when you reopen a gnome bug on launchpad which has an upstream task could you also reopen or comment on the upstream bug?15:01
seb128bigon: ie the gnome-session crasher you reopened15:01
=== thegodfather is now known as fabbione
bigonseb128: done15:06
seb128bigon: thanks15:06
* mvo hugs seb15:06
* mvo hugs seb12815:06
* seb128 hugs mvo ;-)15:06
dholbachcan somebody please massage the u-d-a list?15:45
cjwatsondear conference organisers, ubuntu-devel-announce does not want to submit a paper15:48
cjwatsondholbach: approved your post15:49
dholbachcjwatson: thanks muchly15:49
tjaaltoncould someone kick yellow, it's been building qt4 since the 20th15:52
apwpitti, about?15:56
pittiapw: hi15:56
apwpitti, did you get a chance to look at that apport branch i requested merge?15:57
pittiapw: currently catching up with SRUs, then I'll review your apport branch15:57
apwpitti, thanks15:57
pittiapw: not yet, sorry; but next thing on my list15:57
apwno, thats perfectly reasonable ... just sliding past it on my 'watch this lot list'15:57
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek - last day going to kick off in #ubuntu-classroom now!15:58
* pitti hugs dholbach15:58
* dholbach hugs pitti back15:59
pittiseb128: argh, there must be something wrong; all four retracers didn't crash in the last three days!15:59
seb128pitti: where is the fun there? ;-)16:01
=== smarter_ is now known as smarter
pittiseb128: question for you in bug 20707216:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 207072 in gvfs "nautilus does not display samba shares for machines inside an ADS network." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20707216:34
=== andreas__ is now known as ahasenack
seb128pitti: replied16:41
seb128pitti: basically the change means "only do mounting when accessing the share, not when listing those"16:42
seb128pitti: otherwise it would try to mount all bookmarks when opening the gnome-panel places menu for example16:42
pittiseb128: ugh, why did it do that before?16:43
seb128pitti: and when you have bookmarks which don't reply the software hangs on timeout16:43
seb128pitti: not sure what advantage it has but that was not an issue since there was no call doing ios16:43
seb128pitti: that's also why the nautilus change on bug #251809 is required btw16:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 251809 in nautilus "scrollbar has some problem with multiple tabs" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25180916:44
primes2hpitti: I attached the debdiff and subscribed you.16:47
seb128pitti: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524485#c3216:47
ubottuGnome bug 524485 in smb backend "nautilus does not display samba shares for machines inside an ADS network." [Major,Resolved: fixed]16:47
pittiseb128: ah, and the nautilus change is to handle ENOTMOUNTED?16:48
seb128pitti: not exactly, nautilus already handle ENOTMOUNTED since ssh, etc were never automounted, the code was buggy apparently and that fix the bug16:50
* apw wonders if there is something up with the amd64 buildds they seem very behind the curve17:09
pittiapw: just busy, as it seems17:10
apwyellow seems to have been doing the same job for three days?  is that likely?17:10
=== NCommander is now known as NC|Lunch
=== NC|Lunch is now known as NCommander
iahello. could you tell me, please, how can i detect, which "server's version" contained in xorg package? i ask about it, because after last update (i use jaunty 3 alpha), when xserver starts, it shows me error message with text "module abi major version (4) doesn't match the server's version (5)"17:21
slangasekpitti: ooh yay, I like cd space presents. :)17:24
pittislangasek: I uploaded nautilus and gnome-terminal, which are the two packages with the biggest saving (ls -lSr /usr/share/gconf/schemas/)17:25
pittislangasek: the rest will trickle through with the normal gnome updates17:25
loolcjwatson: As debootstrap and random guru I'd rather have you decide what to do for PATH based on Chet's comments :)17:43
* lool doesn't feel like he has any weight to claim that the kernel or bash or debootstrap should set it17:43
pittiKeybuk: could you put your udevadm howto into README.Debian or so?18:03
calchow is kde 4 coming along? i may be switching back to it soon, the gnomies are scaring me :-\18:03
* calc filed a bug report and the response was essentially, we like to make big broad sweeping changes that break stuff, but we have this pie in the sky idea that would fix the breakage we caused if we ever get around to implementing it18:05
peciskcalc: what is so scary about gnomies? :)18:05
calcpecisk: see above ^18:06
calcpecisk: they have done it with gdm, gnome-session, pulseaudio, and now gweather :-\18:06
calcprobably other stuff as well18:06
peciskcalc: exactly what? :)18:06
calceg try logging out of your session with stuff open, it just kills them now instead of warning you to save (gnome-session)18:07
pecisknew stuff which breaks old stuff?18:07
calcpulseaudio completely replaces the audio system in 2.26 and if you have intel hda realtek it doesn't work right18:07
peciskyou mean consistency18:07
calcgdm was so buggy (aiui) we didn't ship the new version for the past few releases?18:07
LaserJockcalc: I'm with you man, I made the jump a couple weeks ago. In a few days KDE 4.2 will be out, you should try it18:08
calcand now with gweather they are dropping the ability to select the station you want to see reports from, the grouping of stations per city is buggy and some cities are so big the weather is different from one side to other anyway18:08
peciskI have my share of arguments why it is bad to do so, however, I haven't seen much impact, expect logging out/quiting dialog, which was kinda stupid to do without huge warning in release18:08
calcLaserJock: heh ok18:08
peciskcalc: have bug report/reference about that? :)18:09
calcpecisk: the gweather one is gnome bug 56881318:10
ubottuGnome bug 568813 in general "Revert commit 518: "Don't worry about sub-city locations"" [Major,Resolved: wontfix] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56881318:10
tjaaltonwell, you can always look out ot the window?-)18:10
calctjaalton: sure, so why not just throw all of gnome away you can do stuff with pen and paper too18:10
tjaaltoncalc: heh18:10
peciskjoke aside, removing features without warning and insight is truely GNOME developers problem now18:10
pecisktjaalton: he is partly right18:10
calci reference both Houston and London in that bug report that they are both buggy with respect to station data, but he just wants to break it18:11
tjaaltonsurely it's a bug18:11
peciskPA is thrown in just because it is "Next Best Thing", nevermind regressions in SOUND, which is mererly a basic of OS18:11
Keybukpitti: seems an odd place for it18:11
LaserJockGnome has gotten really good about calling bugs "features"18:11
Keybukpitti: ubuntu-policy would be better, no?18:12
Keybukor a developer's reference18:12
LaserJockthe volume control stuff, gnome-session, gweather, ...18:12
peciskNetworkManager :)18:12
calcperhaps i should just switch with 8.10 and hope by 10.04 gnome is sane again18:13
calci can do my testing etc inside vmware :)18:13
LaserJockcalc: man, I don't know. I thought the same thing the time the released without a menu editor18:14
peciskProblem is that steering of development is done by people who are very protective about stuff they like18:14
peciskand they want that everyone accepts it18:14
peciskand if someone objects, he is unpolite, jerk and doesn't understand how cool this stuff will be after year or two. maybe.18:14
calcLaserJock: luckily gnome finally has one of those :)18:14
LaserJockcalc: for now18:15
peciskLaserJock: GNOME has menu editor for quite a long time18:15
calcpecisk: yea the developers don't seem to get that crap should stay in a branch until it is ready18:15
calcpecisk: iirc it took several years before it did18:15
peciskI think problem is that they don't have any way to test it than force it upon users18:15
peciskand that is bad18:15
LaserJockpecisk: right, but they pulled a similar to the gnome-session thing that long ago18:16
calcpecisk: even when they know it is definitely broken they still force it on users, eg gnome-session and pulseaudio18:16
calcgnome-session doesn't manage sessions anymore for example18:16
peciskcalc: gnome-session sure was problem, but it was solved. Pulseaudio, however, isn't still acepted even as external module for GNOME18:16
calcpecisk: solved when in 2.25?18:17
calcpecisk: it doesn't work in 2.2418:17
calcpecisk: pulseaudio is being forced into main gnome for 2.25/2.2618:17
peciskcalc: what exactly doesn't work in gnome-session? :)18:17
calcpecisk: when you log out it doesn't warn you to save anymore18:17
LaserJockit doesn't actually do any session management18:18
calcpecisk: maybe other stuff too18:18
peciskcalc: it won't, so far reading GNOME devs list18:18
peciskcalc: ahhh18:18
cjwatsonlool: ok :-/ I'll think about it on Monday, have to go now18:18
calcpecisk: did someone revert the gnome-volume-* stuff then?18:18
peciskcalc: well, actually they work on improvements, but they will be in distro like Ubuntu first18:18
peciskcalc: no one, but no one also have accepted it as only one18:19
LaserJockit's rediculous what they did with gnome-session18:19
LaserJockgnome-session-save is even left with a man page18:19
LaserJockyet it does absolutley nothing18:19
LaserJockthey had the GUI for session saving18:19
LaserJockbut it wasn't hooked up to anything18:19
LaserJockwhy on earth would you do that?18:20
peciskmore or less, all these problems indicates one particular issue with open source - when getting big as GNOME, Ubuntu, KDE, you have to make specs18:20
peciskwhat should do that button18:20
peciskwhat should do another button18:20
LaserJockseems to me to  be rather release management18:20
calcthey even have specs in gnome afaict but they don't care that they break stuff18:20
peciskwithout specs, GNOME keeps crunching on "oh so shiny features" while deserting "just works" field18:20
peciskLaserJock: release management follows specs - usually :)18:21
LaserJockpecisk: right, but you can spec all you want, if the features don't arrive in time you don't just ship broken stuff and say "oh well, maybe next time"18:21
peciskcalc: they don't have specs on how you should log out from session18:21
tjaaltonwhat.. there's no 'gnome-session-save --kill --silent' anymore??18:22
LaserJocktjaalton: no18:22
peciskLaserJock: but this is exactly what I am talking about ;) If new code doesn't provide warning dialog about unsaved docs, forget about inclusion18:22
tjaaltonso much for the lock-timeout then18:22
pecisktjaalton: it is gone the way of Todo18:22
tjaaltonguess I'll have to forward-port it then18:22
pecisktjaalton: due of gnome-session rewrite, which didn't landed all features it's promised18:22
LaserJockpecisk: right, but the problem was that they knew that and released it anyway18:23
tjaaltonmaybe I'll ruin my evening by reading some ml archives then..18:23
peciskreading GNOME ml is neverending thrill these days - which features will get thrown out18:23
pecisksome guy did remake for Vino dialog - for what?! Instead of adding SIMPLE CHECKBOX, he thrown Advanced tab just because it is "not worth it".18:24
LaserJockI mean, it's even worse than xorg getting rid of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace ;-)18:24
peciskHe didn't even evaluated which features maybe is worth to get into new version!18:25
peciskI mean - what a development is this?18:25
peciskAlso infameous NetworkManager 'Auto eth0' profile, which people tried to change, and everytime it falls back to DHCP18:26
directhexpecisk, oh yes, that sucks hard18:30
directhexgave up using NM on a home server. unusable due to the auto eth018:31
peciskanyway, it is getting out of handing and seriously hurting any chances for free desktop enviroments to be accepted as usable from common people. Even more, it can drive lot of them away without intent to never look back.18:37
tjaaltoncould a buildd admin kick yellow (amd64)? it's been stuck for a couple of days now.. https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/4.4.3-0ubuntu1.2/+build/84255718:51
tjaaltona better link https://edge.launchpad.net/+builds/yellow18:52
NCommanderKeybuk, you around?19:31
KeybukNCommander: yup19:33
NCommanderKeybuk, I'm curious about the issues with upstart on ARM, specifically, what/s missing in in our kernel to make it work sanely19:35
Keybukpselect() and ppoll() just as the bug says19:35
Keybukand you mean udev, not upstart ;)19:35
NCommanderWhat bug?19:35
NCommander(sorry, I was just informed of this via a meeting this morning, I haven't seen any bug)19:35
Keybukbug #31972919:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 319729 in linux "ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31972919:35
tjaaltonKeybuk: could you have a look at yellow (the buildd). I'd really need to get mesa  et al built on amd64 to avoid bugs like bug 32052519:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320525 in linux "jaunty unbootable on intel G45 since .28-5 kernel update" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32052519:36
* ogra wasnt aware either that Keybuk logged a bug19:36
KeybukI always file bugs ;)19:36
ograNCommander, i would have told you ;)19:36
NCommanderogra, oh, I know :-)19:36
ograKeybuk, didnt you say upstart makes extensive use of pselect as well ?19:39
Keybuksome versions do, yes19:39
* ogra thought he remembered something like that19:39
KeybukI suspect there's a few programs that use it19:39
Keybuksince the entire point of the syscall is it solves a difficult race condition19:39
ograthough i didnt see any issues yet19:39
Keybukyou probably have seen issues19:39
Keybukand just not realised it19:40
ogra*but* that might be because 80% of the arm kernels i use dont even have modules19:40
NCommanderAt least they have syscall ids reserved19:40
Keybukit could show up simply as zombie processes staying around and a parent not reaping them19:40
ograso devices dont change usually19:40
NCommanderOh, I had that19:40
Keybukit could show up as a module not loading or a removable device not being activated19:40
Keybukit could show up as a dns timing out instead of resolving for no apparent reason19:40
ograi might have seen the latter19:41
ograunlikely i saw the first19:41
ograusually my removable device carries the rootfs ... so its there before udev ...19:41
* NCommander is currently trying to find where in the kernel ppoll/pselect are actually defined so I can see the implementation19:42
ograunistd.h or so19:42
NCommanderogra, oh, no, the actual function :-)19:42
ograin arm they are just a comment19:42
ograright :)19:43
NCommanderogra, right, but I want to see the x86 implementation so I know what it will take to implement19:43
ograyep, understood19:44
* NCommander suspects its a large blob of ASM19:44
NCommanderKeybuk, ok, this is kinda weird. I found the function, its a blob of C thats dependent on HAVE_SET_RESTORE_SIGMASK existing, but only x86, ia64, and sparc64 seem to have it, which means this bug also effects powerpc, and pa-risc19:49
Keybukarch/powerpc/include/asm/thread_info.h:#define HAVE_SET_RESTORE_SIGMASK 119:50
Keybukpowerpc has it19:50
Keybukand who cares about pa-risc?!19:50
ograIBM !!19:50
NCommanderKeybuk, hrm, it must not exist in 2.6.26, since that was the source tree I was grepping :-)19:51
KeybukI mean we don't support pa-risc19:54
Keybukbut we're going to support arm, and it's missing some rather handy syscalls that fix bugs!19:54
NCommanderI get the point :-)19:54
* NCommander is seeing whats goingt o be needed to implement it19:54
tjaaltonogra: no, HP !! :)19:58
ogratjaalton, HP owns it ... for IBM its competition ;)19:59
tjaaltonogra: ah, good point :)19:59
NCommanderso set_restore_sigmask is a single C function ...19:59
NCommanderThis seems too simple ...20:00
NCommanderKeybuk, do you have some test code I could use to test ppoll/pselect's implementation?20:06
KeybukI'm not sure what you mean?20:07
slytherinhi, is any of the kernel deveopers planning to update kernel on powerpc to bring it in sync with i386?20:08
ScottKNCommander: ^^20:09
NCommanderslytherin, yes we are, TheMuso working on a mechanism to allow us to stay easily in sync w/ the main kernel20:09
slytherinNCommander: cool20:09
slytherinby the way, does anyone know why I have suddenly got non-working mouse and keyboard at GDM. I am running latest jaunty.20:11
tjaaltonLaserJock: btw, looking at the current gnome-session code.. and g-s-s is still there20:14
seb128tjaalton: you want to work on GNOME? ;-)20:14
tjaaltonseb128: hehe :)20:15
tjaaltonseb128: I was just worried that the new g-s would have removed g-s-s --kill --silent20:15
LaserJocktjaalton: it is there, it just doesn't work20:15
tjaaltonit's really useful on classrooms20:15
tjaaltonLaserJock: ah, now that's interesting :)20:15
seb128nothing got killed, that's just need code and things are still not there or working correctly yet20:16
LaserJocktjaalton: they rewrote the core fo gnome-session so all the outside bits are there but they don't work20:16
tjaaltonseb128: I'm checking the upstream bugs now to see if it's reported or being worked on20:16
seb128not sure about this one but the session storing is being worked20:17
tjaaltonthat's good20:17
seb128the GNOME trolls on this channel are not really useful though20:17
tjaaltonI also had a quick look at the gvfs webdav bugs, and seems like it's not maintained at all :/20:18
tjaaltonnot that I've had much time to test it, but it's going to be used extensively here..20:18
tjaaltonseb128: who is the upstream gvfs guy to contact?20:19
seb128tjaalton: there is not one guy, depends of the code you want to change20:20
seb128tjaalton: ah, webdav20:20
tjaaltonyes, gvfsd-dav20:20
seb128tjaalton: that's gicmo on IRC20:20
tjaaltonthere are 10+ bugs upstream that have no replies20:20
tjaaltonok thanks20:21
seb128that's not a lot20:21
LaserJocktjaalton: yeah, common problem :(20:21
tjaaltonwell, they are showstoppers20:21
tjaaltonit's not usable atm20:21
LaserJockseb128: do you know if anybody is maintaining g-s-t upstream? I looked at svn but it seemed pretty dead20:21
seb128that's not really true, depends of the use you want to do rather20:21
seb128LaserJock: no, nobody upstream nor in ubuntu, it's being deprecated20:22
seb128LaserJock: we just need an user admin tools and can stop using it on the default installation20:22
LaserJockseb128: in favor of?20:22
tjaaltonanyway, I'll poke him and ask20:22
tjaaltong-s-t = gnome-search-tool?20:22
calctjaalton: gnome-system-tools (iirc)20:22
seb128tjaalton: he's busy with university recently and knows about some issues, should be better in some weeks if I understood him correctly20:23
LaserJockseb128: so "we" is Ubuntu or ?20:23
tjaaltoncalc: ah ok, so many components :)20:23
seb128LaserJock: no, we being osx on this channel ;-)20:23
calcLaserJock: of course deprecation in gnome doesn't mean there is a replacement.. they just throw stuff out for fun ;-)20:23
tjaaltonseb128: thanks, shouldn't be a problem20:23
seb128calc: it's not deprecated in GNOME20:23
LaserJockcalc: that's what I was worried about20:23
jelmerslangasek, hi20:24
seb128could people stop trolling there20:24
seb128I'll reply when people have constructive comments, I'm not interested in trolls20:24
LaserJockI haven't seen any trolls20:24
calcseb128: ok is gnome-session going to be fixed for 2.26? :)20:24
seb128not reply to those trolls20:24
* calc gets users filing bugs against OOo because of that20:24
tjaaltoncalc: according to the upstream bug, lucas rocha is working on it20:25
calcs/troll/disillusioned user/20:25
seb128same difference20:25
seb128it seems you guys don't understand how opensource is working20:25
LaserJockdon't give me that20:26
seb128g-s-t is no deprecated there is just nobody interested to work on it20:26
* calc thinks Gnome thinks it is Apple and can just foist stuff on users... but Gnome doesn't have a reality distortion field like Jobs has for Apple20:26
seb128other distros have their own set of tools20:26
seb128and ubuntu maintainers are too busy20:26
seb128and perl is not the best thing to write desktop softwares20:26
LaserJockseb128: so Gnome, as a whole, doesn't feel like g-s-t is important to maintain?20:26
* calc is tryin to reach 0 new bugs for OOo20:27
seb128there is no GNOME as a whole having ressources to thrown on code20:27
calcLaserJock: from what i can see in g-s-t most of it is duplication at this point, but the idea in general seems sound as long as it is not in perl20:27
seb128GNOME is not a company20:27
seb128it's just a project of volunteers writing code20:27
seb128if somebody stops working on a software what do you suggest doing?20:28
LaserJockfinding people to take it over20:28
LaserJockputting out a call for volunteers20:28
calcLaserJock: like you? :)20:28
seb128you are welcome to try20:28
LaserJockcalc: we'll yeah20:28
LaserJockI've been seriously trying to figure out what to do with user management20:28
seb128it's easy, just make a call to find people to fix all the bugs and write new code20:28
* calc would have volunteered to take over libgweather but it seems upstream is alive and happy with what they are doing20:28
seb128calc: I think you are overeacting to minor changes on this one20:29
calcseb128: there is no way to tell which station it is using anymore and what it calls 'Houston' is a 4000 sq km area20:29
LaserJockI was thinking that g-s-t was just going through a lull20:29
seb128you flamed upstream before waiting for any comment from their part or before knowing if they were interested to reconsider the changes20:29
calcseb128: wheather is definitely different from one side to the other, often20:30
LaserJockif they plan to deprecate it then that's a whole different story20:30
seb128LaserJock: they don't but same difference20:30
seb128LaserJock: redhat as *-admin, mandrake has mandraketools, suse has yast20:30
calcseb128: that combined with all of what gnome upstream has been doing in general and i think will be getting rid of gnome entirely from my system by 9.04 at minimum20:30
seb128LaserJock: ie, nobody is paying people to work on g-s-t, so if nobody show up to write on ugly perl code it's not going to change a lot20:31
LaserJockseb128: so Gnome gives up on providing useful system administration tools?20:31
calcthey have broken gnome-session, gdm, audio, and who knows what else with the claim they will eventually get around to fixing it20:31
calcbut release it as 'stable' completely broken20:31
seb128LaserJock: dunno what you consider GNOME to be but you seem to have no sense of reality20:31
calcso seeing them go on to break gweather was the last straw for me, i'm dumping gnome for my systems20:31
LaserJockseb128: that's rather rude and uncalled for20:32
LaserJockseb128: please stop making personal attacks on people for raising concerns20:32
* calc thinks he will switch to something that people don't enjoy breaking like flubox or something20:32
seb128LaserJock: GNOME is an agregation of project maintained by volunteers, GNOME decide on what component they ship but they don't have nn people they can order to write new softwares20:32
calcseb128: they could however change commit rules to not cause regressions20:32
LaserJockseb128: no, but you know darn well there's organization there and people can make efforts toward getting things going20:32
seb128LaserJock: that's not GNOME though but those organizations20:33
LaserJockseb128: the gnome community20:33
seb128calc: they could but one of the issue is that things are perceived to not move enough there20:33
seb128LaserJock: what the community wants do not give you magically people writting code though20:33
LaserJockseb128: of course not, I didn't say that20:34
seb128calc: they have broken gnome-session and that's about it20:34
calcLaserJock: i think that the issue you are seeing wrt g-s-t isn't really something that can be solved, if no one wants to work on it then no one does20:34
LaserJockbut if Gnome, as a community, says "we dont't really care about system administration tools", that's a bit frustrating20:34
seb128and that's the fedora guys pushing too hard for changes20:34
calcseb128: so they are backing out the changes for gnome-volume?20:34
seb128LaserJock: they do care, they is just nobody wanting to code on those20:34
calcseb128: because it now uses pulseaudio and pulseaudio is known broken on many audio systems20:35
calcseb128: the new gnome-volume requires pulseaudio aiui and from looking at it20:35
seb128calc: it's being used since hardy, wake up, that's not GNOME breaking anything now20:35
calcseb128: but now you can't change your volume anymore if you don't use pulse on Gnome20:35
seb128that's being discussed on the upstream lists though20:35
calcseb128: yes and it is looking like they are going to force pulseaudio in broken as it is20:35
seb128calc: the volume applet should still be working it's using gstreamer20:35
seb128there is one issue there20:36
seb128which is that fedora is doing most of the GNOME work20:36
seb128so there is nobody having weight to counterbalancer their decisions20:36
calcwhich is why gnome org/foundation(?) needs to adopt a no regressions policy20:36
LaserJockI find it frustrating that you're saying that Gnome isn't a company but it's hard to do things becase of companies/distros20:37
calcso things like this can't get just forced into gnome20:37
seb128LaserJock: GNOME has no real power, softwares maintainers can basically do what they want20:37
slangasekjelmer: hello20:37
calcseb128: gnome board could throw out a developer that is misbehaving like debian has done on occasion20:37
seb128right and stale GNOME for good20:38
jelmerslangasek, What were the URLs for those grub branches?20:38
seb128let's thrown out the only people doing things20:38
calcseb128: stale gnome > than broken gnome20:38
jelmerslangasek, I should've put them in the bug report, and can't find them anymore.20:38
seb128calc: I don't agree, they are rewritten a lot right now and that will benefit GNOME 3 which we should get for the next lts20:38
LaserJockin the mean time people leave because of regressions20:38
seb128either you push for new changes and break things on the way for a while20:39
slangasekjelmer: lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/grub/ubuntu, svn://svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-grub/grub/trunk20:39
seb128or maintain several codebase and slow work because you have to work on several versions20:39
jelmerslangasek, thanks20:39
slangasekjelmer: thank you :)20:39
calcseb128: broken things (broken on purpose) should never make it into a stable release20:39
seb128nothing is broken on purpose20:39
seb128that's just life, the guy who started the gnome-session rewrital got a new job and moved between countries during the cycle20:40
calcseb128: well then described as rewriting and pushing it out before its done, however you want to say it20:40
LaserJockseb128: gnome-session without any session managment isn't broken on purpose?20:40
seb128on purpose, that's just trolling20:40
calcseb128: they should have reverted the change before release in the gnome-session case then20:40
seb128other code depends of the new dbus api that's not so trivial20:40
LaserJockok, but they left all the UI and exposed stuff that doesn't work20:41
LaserJockthat's broken and that's on purpose20:41
seb128the guy started on the rewrital, was on track mid cycle and then vanished because he was changing job, country, etc20:41
LaserJockthey knew what stuff didn't work and choose to keep it anway20:41
seb128LaserJock: I'm near of being really unpleasant with you now20:42
seb128"on purpose"20:42
LaserJockseb128: likewise20:42
seb128yeah, they decided "let's screw users"20:42
LaserJockI wouldn't go that far20:42
seb128'let's start on something and break it just to laugh to users'20:42
seb128that's what on purpose mean20:42
* calc thinks this proves the case of rewrites shouldn't be done on trunk20:42
LaserJockI didn't say they did it with malicious intent20:42
LaserJockbut I think they did do it knowingly20:42
seb128that's what on purpose means20:42
seb128no, they didn't20:42
seb128they were on track mid cycle20:43
LaserJockyes they did!20:43
seb128the guys said he would fix it20:43
seb128and he didn't20:43
calcok s/on purpose/knowingly/20:43
LaserJockwhich is why you don't release it when somebody goes AWOL20:43
calcthey should definitely have known it was broken before the release and just released with it as is20:43
LaserJockwe do that all the time in Ubuntu20:43
seb128they got screwed by somebody who didn't deliver20:43
seb128no we don't20:43
LaserJockI don't know why it'd be so hard for an organization like GNOME to figure out20:43
seb128we could have downgraded gnome-session20:43
seb128and we knew about the issue20:43
calcLaserJock: in Ubuntu if we have known broken things we revert them generally with a XreallyY syntax for packaging20:44
seb128that's the other side of fixed schedule20:44
LaserJockbut gnome left things exposed20:44
seb128we knew it one month before intrepid20:44
seb128but nobody stepped to do the job20:44
LaserJockjust kinda dropped it out there where it was20:44
seb128we did the same20:44
seb128again GNOME has no paid people they can use at will20:45
LaserJockbut it shows that perhaps people are caring about what's going on enough or some other institutional/community issue20:45
seb128what you do when you know you need somebody working for a week to fix the situation but have only overworked volunteers?20:45
seb128either you delay schedule or just ship what you have20:45
LaserJockit's called community managment20:45
seb128you can't order community20:46
LaserJockwell, you can  quickly try to patch things up the best you can20:46
seb128there was call for volunteer to fix those issues20:46
seb128nobody stepped there20:46
seb128who is you?20:46
LaserJocki.e. take out gnome-session-save and the "Remember current running applications"20:46
tedgseb128: I think the real problem is that no one defined a date where it has to be fixed to get in.  One of the things I've liked about the Evolution-dbus situation is that if it doesn't do XYZ by date A it doesn't get in this release.  No one did that for gnome-session, which I think, was a failure of the release team.20:46
LaserJocktedg: exactly my point20:46
m1k3What gives with Ubuntu using OLD ffmpeg? from ffmpeg website, "It is a key component in many multimedia projects and has new features added constantly. New, official "releases" are few and far between. In short, if you want to work with FFmpeg, you are advised to go along with SVN development rather than relying on formal releases."20:46
seb128tedg: right, they didn't want to do a gdm situation again20:46
seb128that's really fedora's fault20:47
calcseb128: perhaps this is something we should look into to help out gnome then? not something to help out Ubuntu specifically, but to help them get their release engineering going properly, since we heavily depend on upstream Gnome being in a usable state20:47
tedgThere's generally an assumption that existing modules will continue to get in, even with complete rewrites.  I don't think that should be allowed.20:47
seb128calc: they know about the issue now, that's new issues for them, they didn't really have such issues until recently20:47
seb128they didn't accept the new gdm for several cycles because it was not ready20:48
tedgcalc: I think the processes is being adjusted, but yes, we need to clone seb :)20:48
calcseb128: yet people were still trying to defacto force PA into 2.26... so it seems they still need help20:48
seb128but that created tension with the fedora guys who are doing the work and are major contributors20:48
seb128calc: again fedora's decision20:48
seb128and there is nobody to balancer their influence there20:48
calcseb128: which is why i suggest we see if we can help influence them somehow20:49
seb128opensource is sort of a who-do-work-has-something-to-say20:49
seb128we can by starting doing work20:49
slangasekseb128: well, there was also the gvfs debacle where GNOME stopped being a useful SMB browser just in time for an LTS :(20:49
seb128slangasek: again fedora did the changes and we picked the wrong cycle for a lts and where stucked between sucking choices20:49
calcseb128: but as gnome is a real organization (i think?) it can decide what to let those who are doing do20:50
calcseb128: it can't tell them what to do, but it can decide what to accept20:50
seb128right, they didn't accept the new gdm when it was not ready20:50
slangasekseb128: I would argue that if there's /any/ "stable" cycle in which GNOME is landing that large of a regression, there's a problem with the release management per se20:50
seb128the new gnome-session was judged as mostly working20:50
calcseb128: but they accepted the gvfs issue slangasek brought up and gnome-session20:50
seb128nobody raised the issue about session storing during the unstable cycle20:50
LaserJockseb128: I think I read about it before, but I could be wrong20:51
seb128the gvfs smb issues was raised after they rolled the stable version20:51
calcseb128: i can't even run jaunty right now because it is too buggy, i'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat20:51
seb128slangasek: the issue is that GNOME has no manpower they control20:51
slangasekseb128: but GNOME should have control over what goes into a release20:51
LaserJockbut I don't see how they could have accepted gnome-session when almost all the user-visable features are missing20:51
seb128slangasek: so either they reject changes until they are ready which tend to discourage people or try to go forward and do what they are doing20:51
slangasekdiscouraging people who are otherwise going to wind up breaking the stable release for users is not a loss20:52
seb128slangasek: they do, they just have the feeling that GNOME is not moving fast enough compared to other desktop, users expectations, etc and that they should go forward rather than stepping to stop changes because of issues20:52
tedgWhat I hope that we can do in the future is do thing like what we're doing for gdm/gpm for this release.  Do parallel releases of version.20:52
calcslangasek: and after a while the developers will understand what they need to do to get into the release and just go along with it20:52
calcseb128: the other desktop.. KDE? is broken as well as I understand it20:53
slangasekseb128: who is "they" and who is it they're worried about trying to move as fast as?20:53
tedgI think that provides a little both worlds.  Allows for easily available experimentation while still allowing for stable releases.20:53
seb128LaserJock: the fedora guys didn't perceive session storing as an important thing since it never worked correctly20:53
calcseb128: so trying to be like KDE 4.x releases isn't particularly helpful20:53
slangasekseb128: heh20:53
seb128and we didn't either20:53
calchowever dropping session storing also got rid of the save before logout bit20:53
broonieseb128: The other alternative is to flag things more clearly to users (possibly using something like tedg mentions with alternative versions available).20:53
LaserJockseb128: then why is it in the UI?20:53
seb128and nobody raised that as an issue until late20:53
seb128LaserJock: I already explained you that the guy doing the work changed job and country no?20:54
slangasekwell, session saving /used/ to work just fine for me, and has progressively degraded over the last three releases20:54
LaserJockI don't understand why there's a UI for something in a stable release for something that doesn't work and nobody cares about20:54
calcon the other end of this argument is Sun OOo which takes forever to get anything in, so it is a balancing act20:54
seb128because the guy stopped his work mid cycle20:54
seb128and nobody else picked up then20:54
LaserJockcan it really be that hard to remove the button and remove gnome-session-save?20:54
slangasekI probably would've noticed it sooner myself if I didn't already find restarting my sessions to be a hassle20:54
seb128LaserJock: send a patch?20:55
tedgslangasek: The problem is that it didn't work for a bunch of use cases, and didn't recover properly.  For instance if you saved the session on a autostart app.20:55
seb128LaserJock: nobody is working on this code20:55
LaserJockseb128: ok, but that's not exactly a great excuse for releasing broken features20:55
seb128lot of applications don't store their workspace or position or open work either20:55
seb128LaserJock: nobody said that's an excuse, it's just how it happened, the same reason it happened for ubuntu20:56
LaserJockbut when you have a gtk button that's connected to an empty callback ..20:56
slangasektedg: I agree, it was broken before.  But now it's more broken.20:56
tedgThe problem is that the fix isn't good either.  Inventing a new API isn't the solution to poor implementations of the old one.20:56
seb128LaserJock: there is a fixed scheduled, known issue but nobody stepping up, either you delay or ship what you have20:56
LaserJockand an "executable" that doesn't work20:56
seb128that's similar to what ubuntu do20:57
seb128we don't have the manpower to fix all the upstream code20:57
tedgWhile we can argue about the past, I'm more concerned about the future.  seb128, is gnome-session looking better for Jaunty?20:57
seb128and we have a fixed schedule20:57
seb128so we do the best we can20:57
LaserJockbut we rely on upstreams to have some sense of QA20:57
seb128tedg: session storing will be fixed for jaunty20:57
seb128LaserJock: and if they don't we can be screwed, same for GNOME20:58
slangasekbut, er, GNOME /is/ the upstream? :)20:58
seb128GNOME doesn't have paid people20:58
LaserJockseb128: but I'm interested in how that institutionally happens and what could be done to fix it20:58
seb128they just do a desktop with softwares volunteers are writting20:59
slangasekseb128: no, but that's no excuse for not structuring themselves in a way that their QA is proportional to their development targets20:59
slangasekif that means they have to scale back their development, so be it20:59
seb128slangasek: you could say the same about ubuntu20:59
seb128we did ship with those bugs too20:59
LaserJockand we are constantly adjusting QA and development procedures in the wake of EPIC FAILs20:59
slangasekbut we didn't drive the development of the half-delivered features20:59
seb128we just ship way too much code for the ressources we have20:59
seb128slangasek: they didn't either, they don't control the people doing the changes, they are not paid by GNOME21:00
LaserJockyou act as if the only way to "control" anything is to pay people to do it21:00
LaserJockwhich seems rather odd21:00
seb128no, but when you don't have ressources you can use you are limited in choices21:00
seb128either you are conservative and wait to see before doing a change21:01
calcLaserJock: if they are paid they tend to disappear less frequently ;-)21:01
LaserJockcalc: sure, but you compensate21:01
seb128or you decide to go with whatever somebody is doing and get screwed if they stop on the way21:01
LaserJockFLOSS projects have been dealing with flakes for years :-)21:01
calcbut i think a better solution to this would be to just not allow major rewrite type changes to happen on trunk to begin with21:01
calcits equivalent to us using ppa's21:01
seb128that's the flip side of fixed schedule with limited ressources21:01
seb128there is not a zillion of way21:02
seb128either you21:02
seb128- delay the version21:02
seb128- allow extra ressources21:02
seb128- ship what you have21:02
seb128there is no way around those21:02
calci could try to shove OOo 3.1 into jaunty but i think it will likely not make it in time so do it via ppa for people to play with21:02
seb128delay the version is what debian does21:02
seb128allow extra ressources required having some to allow21:02
seb128and ship what you have is what happens there21:02
LaserJockseb128: I think that's a little simplistic21:02
seb128what are the other choices?21:02
LaserJockyou can have release management teams and QA structures21:03
calcand debian does have testing/unstable so it doesn't do the equivalent of direct commits to trunk21:03
seb128calc: we could stay on not current GNOME, the issue is that GNOME fix a lot more issues than we could do with the ubuntu ressources we have21:03
slangasekseb128: sorry, but I don't think either of those options you propose constitute very good release management; the better answer is "sort out a rollback path in advance and identify a milestone at which x, y, z features need to be implemented before you commit to it"21:03
seb128slangasek: I agree with you and that's what GNOME usually do21:04
seb128the gvfs smb issue was not raised before stable21:04
calcseb128: true, and even then that wouldn't help that much since eg the gnome-session issue was broken for several upstream releases, looks like it might be fixed in 2.2521:04
seb128which might shows they (and we as a distributor too) don't do enough pro-active testing21:04
seb128they delayed the new gdm21:04
slangasekseb128: hmm, was that a failure on our side?  I thought we had reports about gvfs smb borkage at least a month before the release21:04
seb128slangasek: a month before our release rather?21:05
seb128slangasek: we have our beta around their stable21:05
seb128and have our stable around their .121:05
slangasekseb128: yes - and our beta is only 3 weeks before release, neh, so a month before release is before their stable? :)21:05
seb128slangasek: well, it took me a while to get that would be a real issue for many users21:06
seb128and nobody else ringed any bell early either21:06
slangasekfwiw, the last two release cycles have taught me that I need to be proactive about upgrading to the devel release of Ubuntu early, and reporting all the bugs I trip over21:06
slangasekseb128: right, that's fair21:06
seb128what I was saying to the upstream guys recently21:06
seb128their recent screwing taught me to not upgrade automatically everything now21:06
LaserJockslangasek: except when there's nobody on the other end listening :(21:06
slangasekseb128: did upstream have any sort of post mortem after the gvfs smb thing, to try to understand what they could do better to prevent that in the future?21:06
seb128if that was this cycle I would not do the gnome-session upgrade21:07
slangasekLaserJock: I report them to LP, so seb128 is always listening to me ;)21:07
LaserJockslangasek: sure, but that's not always fair to seb128 :-)21:07
seb128slangasek: I don't think they really did21:08
seb128but the issue is clear21:08
seb128they didn't see the issue coming before their stable21:08
slangasekyes - the question is, how to make sure they have a perspective that lets them see the issue21:08
seb128they have all the discussion on public lists anybody can raise objection21:09
LaserJockdo you think like having a bit more publicized pre-releases would help?21:09
tedgslangasek: Convince Fedora that users like being able to upgrade their systems? ;)21:09
seb128Josselin is raising concerns about the sound changes for 2.26 at the moment for example21:09
slangasekseb128: I don't think it's reasonable to expect users of GNOME to have to track a discussion mailing list21:09
seb128we did raise concern about the new gdm which didn't get accepted upstream21:09
LaserJocklike for KDE the Kubuntu clan backport all of KDE betas and rcs so peple can try them out21:09
seb128slangasek: well, if somebody perceive an issue it should be raised by some way21:09
slangasekfor major changes, they ought to actively seek feedback from a wider base21:09
LaserJockwould that help Gnome out to find those issues earlier?21:09
seb128LaserJock: GNOME roll new version often enough and those are in major unstable distros21:10
seb128they didn't screw that much and are learning from it too21:10
slangasekLaserJock: I'm not sure there's a market for pre-release backports of GNOME, and I'm pretty sure there isn't the manpower21:10
LaserJockseb128: but I've never seen like a "Get 2.25.x for Intrepid today!"21:10
seb128they had issues on gvfs (specific to smb that linux hackers usually don't rely on and didn't notice)21:11
LaserJockslangasek: is that just because more is going on with the KDE 4 cycle21:11
seb128and on gnome-session (they didn't perceive session storing being such an issue since most of hackers don't use it)21:11
LaserJockI don't use it either21:11
slangasekLaserJock: speaking frankly, at least for myself I think the unstable GNOME changes are the biggest reason *not* to upgrade to devel releases...21:11
seb128there is sort of disconnection between hackers and users expectations there21:11
slangasekseb128: I cannot fathom why hackers would be less likely to use session saving21:12
seb128otherwise they didn't really screw up anything else21:12
seb128slangasek: not less likely, that's just that nobody in the upstream community screamed21:12
slangasekLaserJock: i.e., if you're willing to run the GNOME stuff that's in development, might as well run it on the Ubuntu devel series21:12
LaserJockseb128: so do you know if anybody is going to write a user and group admin tool for Ubuntu then if upstream seems to not care?21:12
seb128the fedora guys considered that it never worked correctly since it was not storing workspace, position, open work etc informations for most softwares anyway21:13
LaserJockslangasek: ahhh, I see what you mean21:13
seb128LaserJock: they still ship g-s-t which works21:13
LaserJockseb128: well, except I want to modify it21:13
ScottKslangasek: In Kubuntu we do get quite a number of people who are willing to run pre-release KDE versions on the current Ubuntu release.21:13
seb128LaserJock: there is just nobody actively fixing issues there because nobody seems interested, how do you solve that without having money to spend ?21:13
slangasekanyway, where was I... oh yes, filing a critical bug on NM21:13
ScottKI think it's a useful risk mitigation for people who aren't up to dealing with infrastructure breakage.21:14
LaserJockseb128: dude, we do it all the time21:14
seb128LaserJock: you are welcome to modify it and take over maintainship upstream if you want21:14
LaserJockthat's how MOTU works, making slaves out of volunteers ;-)21:14
slangasekseb128: "vision"21:14
LaserJockseb128: well, that's sort of what I'm looking at21:14
seb128slangasek: vision doesn't make things magically happen21:14
slangasek(if you build... the vision..., they will come)21:14
LaserJockI myself, am unlikely to be able to just up and write a new tool21:15
seb128there is nothing fancy in an user management tool21:15
peciskseb128: but they show directions :)21:15
slangasekseb128: what it does is encourage the people who are most likely to be enthusiastic about helping solve the problem feel welcome21:15
LaserJockhowever, the current tools aren't so great to hack on because of being perl/C21:15
slangasekthat's not a sentence, but maybe you get the idea21:15
LaserJockwhat I'm wondering is if it's better to start a new pygtk tool for Ubuntu21:15
peciskguys, why are you doing this on friday night? :)21:15
LaserJockor try to restart upstream21:15
LaserJockor ...21:15
seb128the g-s-t situation is a bit special since almost no distro use it21:16
seb128so it's only upstream debian and ubuntu basically21:16
LaserJockseb128: right, I guess I knew that but didn't know it :-)21:16
seb128and ubuntu is using the redhat tools for different things now21:16
seb128and gnome-panel clock applet can set time now21:16
seb128and network-manager replactes network-admin,  etc21:16
LaserJockslangasek: right, I'd like to help upstream some, but if they're not even enthusiastic about their software I'm not really either :/21:17
seb128you should help the fedora guys to work on the new user admin tool21:17
LaserJockseb128: they've got one?21:17
seb128they have some plans and mpt contributed to the discussion21:17
peciskseb128: I think if NM wouldn't be so full of small quirks no one would even notise disappearance of g-s-t network-admin21:17
seb128pecisk: nm 0.7 is supposed to do eveything network-admin does now21:18
slangasekoh, I don't use g-s-t network-admin21:18
slangasekI use NM exclusively21:18
seb128me too21:18
slangasekbecause it's best-of-breed for wireless managemen21:18
peciskseb128: problem is that it doesn't. NM guys even claim that they don't plan to do ppp any time soon.21:18
LaserJockit took a while, but for me it's great21:18
slangasekunfortunately, that's not saying much, and it's always getting in my way in other ways21:18
seb128pecisk: network-admin has many limitation too21:19
seb128configuring wireless using it is the suck21:19
seb128do you know of anybody who managed to configure a dsl connection?21:19
peciskseb128: sure, and I generally happy about switch21:19
slangasekpecisk: fwiw, it's not friday night for all of us. :)21:19
seb128network-admin is a buggy piece of code written in perl and having many limitation21:20
LaserJockseb128: do you happen to know the name of red hat's user admin tool?21:20
seb128network-manager is doing a much better job21:20
mvoLaserJock: have you considered just replacing the perl backend with a python one for the user-admin tool? i haven't looked into it in a while but it was one of the ideas floating around21:20
slangasekmvo: one word: liboobs21:21
peciskseb128: where is link about redhat rewriting user admin? :) would like to take a look21:21
LaserJockmvo: I have no idea21:21
seb128LaserJock: no, maybe ask mpt he participated to the discussions about the new tool21:21
* calc bbl, dropping off my son21:21
seb128pecisk: that was discussed in some desktop team meeting previous cycle and somewhere on their wiki21:21
LaserJockmvo: it's just that Edubuntu wants to get user administration better, but not a lot of experienced programmers21:22
LaserJockand so I've been trying to look around to see what the best course of action would be21:22
slangasekLaserJock: I think you'll find that the UI / model are the hard part, not the programming21:23
mvoslangasek: right21:23
seb128anyway GNOME did screw up some things recently21:24
LaserJockslangasek: perhaps, but if all people know is pythong it's hard to get them wanting to hack on perl/C21:24
seb128they learnt from it and we did too21:24
LaserJockyikes, bad typo I did there :-)21:24
peciskseb128: I really hope so :) I love GNOME as desktop env. and don't wanna leave21:24
seb128I don't think it's fair to troll that much on them breaking things21:24
seb128they only really screwed gvfs-smb and gnome-session21:24
seb128and that's because nobody raised enough concern early21:25
LaserJockseb128: well, the point wasn't to troll, but rather to discuss/figure out what's going on21:25
peciskseb128: that indicates that isn't tested properly. We need some written, automated tests21:25
LaserJockof course frustration was also in there, so sorry for some of that21:26
seb128pecisk: that and that it's not always easy to know what users expect21:26
mvowell, liboops provides the gobject mapping to the dbus backend. the dbus backend could be written in python instead of perl. now its the question if the gobject model for the user is a) good b) worth the effort21:26
seb128they knew about session storing being broken21:26
* mvo has no answer to this question21:26
seb128but they though nobody was really relying on it since it never worked correctly21:26
mvobut whatever is done, a dbus/polkit based model very similar to g-s-t is probably the right ansewr21:26
LaserJockmvo: what if we want the UI to change a fair amount?21:27
peciskseb128: of course, but users more or less expect desktop to work and be consistent21:27
mvoits kind of sad, g-s-t was really ahead of its time in a sense21:27
seb128pecisk: the intrepid desktop works and is consistent21:27
peciskseb128: if there is a feature, it should work21:27
peciskseb128: comparing to what? :) Hardy has different way to log out and switch off computer. PA completely changed way of doing things :)21:28
mvoLaserJock: well, the ui could talk to the same dbus service. when using python the liboops layer is not really needed21:28
seb128pecisk: depends of the feature, when you rewrite code you might decide to delay some things21:28
waltersmvo: there is some gobject user management code in gdm that i happen to be looking at right now actually, but it's not really designed around management21:28
peciskseb128: yes, but then distro or GNOME has to be sure it is mentioned and there is clear path to have to workaround problem21:28
walterss/user management/user modeling/ i guess21:28
mvowalters: interessting21:28
peciskotherwise it creates confusion21:28
peciskand lot of anger21:28
seb128walters: it's all you fault, you guys are going to fast in rewrites ;-)21:28
peciskin both sides - users and developers21:29
mvoLaserJock: but then, if you write a new UI and a new backend you can as well skip the compatiblity with liboops I guess21:29
waltersseb128: heh, well FWIW i'm personally kind of unhappy at the number of incompatible breaks21:29
waltersthough X SM *is* broken by design, it sucks to not have offered any replacement21:30
peciskseb128: for example, there is vino caplet interface rewrite going on. Good developer added support for PnP autoconfiguration of firewall, but also removed Advanced tab and icons. I personally thought that vino finally got right gui, but seemingly developer thought otherwise.21:30
seb128walters: me too, I talked a bit to vuntz about it, I think GNOME should be careful about accepting rewrites too quickly the user perception about GNOME is not good for some cycles, too many things which used to work which are not in new versions21:30
pochupecisk: what icons?21:31
waltersseb128: yeah21:31
mvoLaserJock: g-s-t is using glade (well, .ui files) so a lot of the gui stuff can be done without code21:31
LaserJockmvo: well, messing with the UI without hooking it up to code doesn't work too well21:32
=== bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth
=== stdin_ is now known as stdin
seb128walters: right, it's broken but some things were working, ie some software were closing correctly with the session before and now users are loosing work because it stopped doing that21:33
=== Rocket2DMn_ is now known as Rocket2DMn
maxbHmm, with that mesa build still pending, for amd64, would now be a _really_ bad time to try an upgrade?21:33
mvoLaserJock: depends on the changes :) but sure, if you want new functionality, then certainly not21:33
waltersseb128: that is a more serious concern, yeah21:33
peciskpochu: http://www.bani.com.br/lang/en/2009/01/new-vino-dialognova-tela-do-vino/21:34
slangasekasac: bug #320652 for you :)21:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320652 in network-manager "NM 0.7 tries incorrectly to manage openvpn tap0 device as an ethernet device" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32065221:34
waltersseb128: i think lucasr was looking at the session bug, hopefully we'll at least get some bare bones XSM support21:35
seb128walters: right21:35
waltersi have a much better design for session stuff, hoping to get a chance to it at some point21:36
pochupecisk: ah, the icons in the UI21:36
pochupecisk: well, I wouldn't call that a regression, but YMMV21:36
pochupecisk: although I think an advanced tab is nice to have21:36
pochuI'll talk to Jonh about it21:36
seb128that's another issue sometimes21:37
peciskpochu: those icons didn't hurt anyone :) well, I personally like that sections of configuration has kind of visual indication. Helps on screens with huge resolutions and when you are farer from desktop than you would like.21:37
seb128there is nobody really looking at the design but maintainers do what they want21:37
seb128some take good choices, some are not21:37
peciskpochu: and this dialog was actually one of few where it was done right imho21:37
pochupecisk: yeah, I agree they're nice, but I wouldn't call that a regression ;)21:38
tjaaltonmaxb: yes, it would.. if you have intel21:38
AmaranthAlthough and "Advanced" button/tab/section probably means you've done something wrong in your application21:38
AmaranthSo that's not a big loss in the UI21:38
pochuAmaranth: not really, you can change the listening port there for example21:39
pochuor deactivate the wallpaper, or a few more things21:39
Amaranthpochu: I think avahi should make that unneeded21:39
pochuAmaranth: sorry for my ignorance :) but isn't avahi for local connections?21:40
AmaranthSure but that's what vino is targeting21:40
maxbtjaalton: I don't really understand much about what mesa is, but I thought it wasn't solely intel-related? Am I save with an nvidia card?21:40
pochunot really21:40
waltersmvo: http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gdm/trunk/gui/simple-greeter/gdm-user-manager.h btw, if it's useful21:40
AmaranthThat's why the port and whether to draw the desktop background are 'advanced' and/or 'not needed' options21:41
tjaaltonmaxb: yes, nvidia diverts that stuff anyway21:41
pochuor not only21:41
Amaranthpochu: The UI makes it very clear vino is meant for LAN use21:41
AmaranthThe UI and the defaults, rather21:41
tjaaltonmaxb: mesa provides the OSS libGL & DRI drivers21:41
tjaaltonamong other things21:41
Amaranthpochu: Although the UPnP autoconfiguration in the new one makes it clear the developer is conflicted on what the real use of the app is21:43
pochuAmaranth: does it? I have to admit I've never used vino if not with localhost, but I didn't think it was for local networks only21:43
mvowalters: thanks, I have a look (<- LaserJock might be interessting for you as well)21:43
peciskpochu: well, there is no rules to say what is regression or not, so I can't objectively discuss about that ;)21:43
pochupecisk: sure, that's why I said YMMV :)21:43
waltersmvo: at this moment preparing a patch to make it into a public library since we need it for gnome-shell21:44
pochupecisk: did you report a bug in bugzilla yet?21:44
Amaranthpochu: but vino is configured by default to work best on LANs, otherwise it wouldn't draw the desktop21:45
peciskpochu: I thought that inform developer first is enough :)21:47
peciskpochu: I left comment in that blog post21:48
slangasekAmaranth: "is meant for" -- um, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people who want /non/-local VNC to have to install a different implementation, or dig around in vino's guts21:48
Amaranthslangasek: You just have to know the port and have a fast connection or open up gconf-editor21:48
slangasek"know the port"?21:49
Amaranthhopefully the UI at least mentions the port number somewhere21:49
Amaranthand it doesn't21:50
Amaranthalso: "Talk to the router and try to open the door there"21:50
slangasekclearly a typo, should be s/router/BBS/21:51
Skiessiis x known to not work correctly after the latest upgrade?21:52
Skiessior wait I'll recheck if there's any updates21:52
maxbSkiessi: If your video hardware is intel and your architecture is amd64, yes, it's broken due to buildd lag21:53
* Amaranth remembers to not restart X21:53
* Amaranth stops working on compiz stuff that can freeze X21:53
Skiessivideo hardware is intel but I think I'm using the 32-bit version21:53
maxbSkiessi: dpkg --print-architecture21:54
Skiessiokay. booting21:54
maxbI guess you  have a different problem then21:55
SkiessiI'll take a pic :p21:55
directhexwhere would i file a bug against the start.ubuntu.com google page?21:56
directhexaha, already open as lp 30590522:01
ubottuLaunchpad bug 305905 in ubuntu-website "start.ubuntu Google CSE has fewer features" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30590522:01
pochuAmaranth: well, it shows the port in the advanced tab in 2.24, that was pecisk was complaining about22:04
pochuAmaranth: and it uses the default VNC port, so there's not much you need to know unless you change it22:04
AmaranthIn that case it's fine to not have it in the UI22:04
Amaranthand not drawing the wallpaper is usually not something you need to do22:05
pochuwell, what's wrong with an Advanced tab?22:05
pochuI think it does no harm and otherwise you need to go to gconf22:06
Amaranthpochu: "Advanced" means "I failed to find a place for these and failed to make you not have to care about them"22:06
slangasekand somehow sending people to gconf is better?22:06
Amaranthlike the background thing, it should do that on the fly if it detects your connection is bad22:06
pochuAmaranth: I disagree. Advanced means "I want to further customise it"22:07
pochuAmaranth: so, should we move NM's VPN to a config file or gconf, for example?22:07
pochubecause if you plug your cable and it doesn't work, then it shouldn't be in the UI22:08
pochu(at least that's what I understand from your reasoning)22:08
AmaranthVPN is a large thing to setup and has it's own configuration section22:09
Amaranthand there is no way to automatically set it up22:09
pochuI don't think an Advanced tab means there's no better place for it22:10
pochuit's just an advanced tab, something you likely don't want to change, but if you do, there you have22:10
AmaranthIt may not have to mean that but it almost always does22:10
* LaserJock looks around for a UserKit project22:11
AmaranthAdvanced turns into a dumping ground for all the things random people think they should be able to tweak and things where you couldn't decide what a default should be22:11
Amaranth100 lines of code and an option or 1000 lines of code and it just does the right thing, I'd go for the latter22:12
slangasekyou're assuming the latter is one of your choices22:14
slangasekif there's no one to write the right 1000 lines of code, it isn't22:14
AmaranthI'm saying if I'm writing the app, that's how I'd go22:14
pochuhaving a good default doesn't mean you should hide the setting from the UI22:15
peciskAmaranth: but not in this scenario, I was there when previously that dialog was designed, and Advanced was generally accepted22:15
AmaranthOr if one option was used by 90% of my users I'd ditch the option22:15
slangaseksorry, but I think that's naive, you don't always anticipate all the "right" answers when writing a program :)22:15
Amaranthone choice for an option, rather22:15
slangasekAmaranth: er, you'd screw over 10% of the users?22:15
slangasekyou think it's acceptable for 10% of the users to have to dig around in gconf?22:16
AmaranthI wouldn't even put it in gconf unless it was a tiny bit of code to maintain22:16
lamontso... the printer config settings widgit thingy.... it seriously won't let you share printers on the network without announcing them?  sigh22:17
* lamont hugs vi22:17
peciskAmaranth: first, you really have any veryifable metrics about that 90% versus 10%, have you?22:17
AmaranthThat's problem 2, we have no idea what our users are doing with our apps22:17
AmaranthMicrosoft does, why can't we?22:17
peciskso you can't claim "90% don't need this feature"22:17
peciskAmaranth: Microsoft doesn't22:17
ScottKMicrosoft's number is 80%22:18
slangaseklamont: hmm?  announce how?22:18
peciskAmaranth: Microsoft makes study and real ui design according to "how they think it should work"22:18
Amaranthpecisk: The default in their apps is to report usage statistics22:18
AmaranthHow many times do you use the menu for Cut/Copy/Paste? How many times do you use the keyboard? They know these things22:18
ScottKpecisk: And then you get the Vista logout/shutdown diaglogue monster as a result.22:18
AmaranthAlso, any easy way to figure out how to do settings: Look at what compiz does, do the opposite22:20
peciskAmaranth: ok, I think we went wrong path here22:20
peciskwhat I wanted to say22:20
lamontslangasek: broadcast or multicast, dunno22:20
peciskis if there a feature, and if someone, at least two people need it, and we can have it without ruining simplicity22:20
peciskit would be nice to have it22:21
lamontwhatever the "look at me I HAZ PRINTAR!" IPP method is22:21
peciskand plan to have it22:21
slangaseklamont: well if it's broadcast or multicast, it's not IPP :)22:21
slangaseklamont: if it's broadcast or multicast, I guess it's ultimately avahi's doing?22:21
maxbThe nice folks on #launchpad have unwedged yellow. However the build on crested looks to be stuck - judging by the previous buildlog it will be killed in another couple of hours by the "150 minutes with no activity" criterion. Is it worth asking someone to terminate it earlier, in view of the previously mentioned mesa/intel/amd64 breakage?22:21
lamontsystem -> administration -> printing -> settings -> lines 2 and 3 on an intrepid box22:21
Amaranthpecisk: That way leads to GNOME 1.x22:22
Amaranthpecisk: We've learned from those mistakes22:22
lamontmaxb: let me go look at it for giggles22:22
slangaseklamont: also, server -> settings -> publish shared printers connected to this system doesn't control what you want? or is that jaunty only?22:22
lamontslangasek: I want allow printing from internet, but not publish printers22:22
maxblamont: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21472199/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-amd64.ardour_1%3A2.7.1-2~hardy1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz  <-- the previous buildlog, which wedged in the same place22:22
lamont_I_ know what they are, you see...22:22
peciskAmaranth: really? I think GNOME 1.x didn't have much features and they didn't worked well22:23
Amaranthpecisk: You can look at GNOME 1.x and say "well obviously that's too complex" but it was death by a thousand cuts22:23
peciskAmaranth: what is too complex? For me is too complex to put vino into encryption mode using gconf22:23
Amaranthpecisk: You ever see the configuration in GNOME 1.x? The panel had 2 or 3 "unbreak me" options you could toggle22:23
slangaseklamont: hrm, I guess maybe I configured my acl in /etc/cups/cupsd.conf by hand, doh22:23
peciskAmaranth: yes, I used it for two years :)22:24
lamontstrace -p 1706122:24
lamontProcess 17061 attached - interrupt to quit22:24
lamontmaxb: ^^22:24
lamontstupid ipc22:24
lamontslangasek: like I said: vim deserves hugging22:24
peciskAmaranth: but where is connection with what I said and GNOME 1.x?22:24
Amaranthpecisk: If two people want the option and it's not much code to provide put it in22:24
Amaranthpecisk: That leads to configuration like GNOME 1.x22:25
lamontslangasek: I mean, announcing them to the world is definitely toeing the free-beer line22:25
Amaranthpecisk: You have to ignore some users wishes for the betterment of the rest of the users, the only argument should be where the cutoff point is22:25
slangaseklamont: the GUI says 'publishing', I think that refers only to whether they're browseable - so not really an announcement per se...22:27
peciskAmaranth: so you have to cut it already universally accepted Advanced tab from Vino dialog just to prove that there should be cutoff?22:28
lamontslangasek: well, I know that when I turned that option, it added BrowseAddress @LOCAL, and my laptop magically found all the printers on the amchine...22:28
lamontjust sayin'22:28
peciskI agree that introducing of new advanced features22:28
peciskthat it should be clearly a line when it shouldn't be in the front of the user22:29
peciskold Vino dialog was job of some three or four bug reports22:29
peciskwith requests to having these Advanced features in gui22:29
peciskincluding port, encryption and disabling wallpaper22:30
Amaranththree or four?22:30
peciskas far as I remember22:30
AmaranthI'd be looking for more like 10022:30
peciskAmaranth: three or four with LOT of comments ;)22:30
Amaranthpecisk: Encryption should probably go in the UI somewhere22:30
Amaranthport and wallpaper, no22:31
slangaseklamont: hmm, looks like without setting that option, my printers aren't exposed over avahi, interesting22:31
Amaranthport is the default and you really shouldn't have to change it, disabling wallpaper should be an automatic thing22:31
peciskAmaranth: I agree about port and wallpaper22:33
peciskit is not that hard :)22:33
lamontmaxb: thinking here is that it's scons22:33
peciskfor positive side, it was great to have such blog post about new dialog22:34
lamontmaxb: hardy kernel on the machine, inside whatever chroot that is22:34
peciskso anyone could comment about it on early stage22:34
Amaranthpecisk: Do you use compiz?22:37
peciskAmaranth: very very rarerly. It is nice, but somehow it still have lot of artifacts22:38
Amaranthpecisk: Ok then, have you ever looked at the settings for compiz?22:38
peciskAmaranth: Desktop Effects or Compiz itself?22:39
AmaranthI never want to see that happen to any project ever again22:39
Amaranthcompiz itself22:39
peciskthat infamous monster configuration gui? :)22:39
AmaranthThe excuse for compiz was it's a research project so we have to allow all these options to see what works best22:39
AmaranthThe problem is we can't get rid of them now :/22:39
AmaranthI tried to write a plugin that would ensure certain plugins were loaded and disable a lot of the options but couldn't make it work22:41
AmaranthOriginally the plugin was called 'metacity', right now it's called 'sanity' :P22:41
peciskI understand your struggle22:42
AmaranthI suppose we could just strip the XML for those options in Ubuntu, then ccsm wouldn't show them22:45
peciskAmaranth: what I really would like to see is some kind of spec for GNOME, to keep in check main features so they don't get lost, or if they are gone, there is documented workaround or solution. It would lower a confusion between users a lot.22:45
* maxb raises eyebrow at release-upgrader removing openssl-blacklist22:50
peciskanyway, was nice to discuss all this with you devs. Cheer up and keep on doing great work. And forgive us users and testers that we whine too much sometimes :)22:52
pecisksee ya22:52
maxbHmm. Jockey just proudly announced that I'm using no proprietary drivers... but I'm using nvidia-glx :-/23:02
LaserJockwow, nvidia must have gone open source! ;-)23:05
AmaranthLaserJock: Sweet, now I can comment out the crashXServer() function23:09
Amaranthand the corruptKernelMemory() one too!23:09
directhexpitti, poke23:13
directhexasac, poke also23:14
LaserJockit's pretty late on a Friday for them23:16
directhexbut i've found the bug which relates to a problem so infuriating i was seriously considering drastic measures like using vista, or worse, kubuntu23:17
slangasekdirecthex: ?23:26
directhexslangasek, lp 286119 has been driving me round the bend for MONTHS23:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 286119 in samba "firefox 3.0.3 crashes (no SIG) on most pages w images: 8.10beta AMD64" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/28611923:32
directhexperhaps longer23:33
directhexi might've been unfairly blaming nspluginwrapper all this time23:33
=== blueyed_ is now known as blueyed
slangasekdirecthex: hrm, odd; never seen that bug here23:36
directhexslangasek, do you have an intersection of amd64, winbind, and lots of tabs?23:37
directhexand possibly not being connected to a domain is relevant too23:37
slangasekdirecthex: er, oh, misleading description - I certainly /am/ familiar with that bug once I see which bug it is23:37
directhexit was in some old sarge bugs23:37
slangasekdirecthex: well, s/winbind/nss_wins/ - I never use nss_wins, it's Broken By Design23:40
slangasekfix is supposed to be in intrepid-proposed now, anyawy?23:41
directhexslangasek, no amd64 binaries that i can see. possibly buildd delay or mirror delay23:42
slangasekright, amd64 seems to be lagged for SRUs23:42
maxbyellow had a stuck build for 3 days, didn't help matters.23:43
pochudirecthex: that looks familiar23:53
pochuisn't it the same as bug #214192?23:53
ubottuLaunchpad bug 214192 in liferea "liferea-bin crashed with SIGSEGV in _nss_wins_gethostbyname_r()" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21419223:53
directhexpochu, description sounds identical23:54
* pochu duplicates it23:55

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