| === bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth | ||
| === Hobbsee` is now known as Hobbsee | ||
| === BugMaN1 is now known as BugMaN | ||
| huats | morning all | 09:11 |
|---|---|---|
| didrocks | morning everybody :) | 09:15 |
| seb128 | lut huats didrocks | 09:15 |
| didrocks | lut seb128 | 09:15 |
| huats | hey didrocks and seb128 | 09:16 |
| === cassidy` is now known as cassidy | ||
| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| seb128 | why is jaunty so sloooow | 10:38 |
| seb128 | mvo: hey | 10:38 |
| mvo | don't look at me seb128 | 10:38 |
| Tm_T | seb128: because otherwise it would be too fast | 10:38 |
| * mvo pretends to be inocennt | 10:38 | |
| seb128 | mvo: do you have any clue about what package installation is getting so slooooow over time | 10:38 |
| mvo | seb128: yes, dpkg | 10:39 |
| seb128 | mvo: ie it's hammering the disk for 15 seconds before starting unpacking now | 10:39 |
| mvo | seb128: it reads the available file all the time and keeps track of cruft in the status file | 10:39 |
| Tm_T | packagekit ? | 10:39 |
| seb128 | when I installed hardy on this laptop that was taking a second or so | 10:39 |
| mvo | seb128: at least that was the reaosn last I checked | 10:39 |
| seb128 | mvo: is there any way to clean the cruft? | 10:39 |
| mvo | seb128: I could write you a little cleanup thing and you can test | 10:39 |
| mvo | seb128: but make a backup first ;) | 10:40 |
| seb128 | I'll reinstall if that doesn't work anyway | 10:40 |
| mvo | seb128: sure, I can do that after lunch, please nudge me abou tit again | 10:40 |
| seb128 | it's too slow to be usable | 10:40 |
| seb128 | dpkg -i used to be instantanous | 10:40 |
| mvo | seb128: a drastic measure, we should do better | 10:40 |
| seb128 | and now it takes 15 seconds before starting | 10:40 |
| mvo | right, lets try that then | 10:40 |
| mvo | and see if it helps | 10:40 |
| seb128 | I'm wondering if jaunty io performances are not also to blame | 10:41 |
| seb128 | session login is taking ages too | 10:41 |
| seb128 | mvo: ok thanks, enjoy your lunch ;-) | 10:41 |
| mvo | seb128: cool, please do not reinstall quite yet, you will be my ginie pig (I don't know how to spell that ;) | 10:41 |
| seb128 | ok | 10:41 |
| crevette | during the boot, I seen the disk doesn't work for a couple of second, I wonder what the boot process is waiting for | 10:42 |
| crevette | (hello by the way) | 10:42 |
| seb128 | lut crevette | 10:45 |
| seb128 | crevette: you can use bootchart to do look at that | 10:45 |
| crevette | yep I should do that | 10:45 |
| seb128 | ok, no cookie for gtk today either | 12:32 |
| seb128 | 2.15.1 made gdm crash directly | 12:32 |
| seb128 | 2.15.2 makes gnome-panel crash now | 12:32 |
| seb128 | let's wait for 2.15.3 | 12:32 |
| pitti | seb128: oh, that's gtk? | 12:33 |
| pitti | seb128: I recently disabled compiz because it immediately crashes at session startup | 12:33 |
| pitti | metacity works | 12:33 |
| seb128 | pitti: no, I didn't upload any of those buggy version | 12:33 |
| pitti | ah, ok | 12:33 |
| seb128 | I do run updates gtk for a while before uploading | 12:33 |
| seb128 | gtk updates rather | 12:34 |
| seb128 | let's try another quick session restart to try that xorg issue too | 12:34 |
| vuntz | seb128 always leaves when I want him :-) | 12:35 |
| === davmor2 is now known as davmor2-lunch | ||
| seb128 | re | 12:47 |
| seb128 | ok, jaunty is no fun to use right now | 12:47 |
| seb128 | xorg is unusable slow after a session restart, need to reboot the box to fix it | 12:47 |
| seb128 | let's stop playing with crashing gtk and borked xorg now and do some work ;-) | 12:48 |
| seb128 | not to mention that boot and session start takes ages on jaunty | 12:49 |
| vuntz | seb128: is the panel crash something like gnome bug 569311? | 12:49 |
| ubottu | Gnome bug 569311 in general "Panel stuck in endless crash-restart loop after launching an app" [Critical,Needinfo] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=569311 | 12:50 |
| seb128 | vuntz: not exactly the same stacktrace but something around the same lines | 12:51 |
| seb128 | vuntz: reassing the bug to gtk, that's 2.15.2 being buggy | 12:52 |
| didrocks | seb128: I will not repeat again that someone asks me to dist-upgrade to jaunty instead of using vm :-p | 12:53 |
| seb128 | didrocks: if nobody run into those issues they are not going to be fixed either ;-) | 12:53 |
| vuntz | didrocks: do it! | 12:54 |
| vuntz | didrocks: (maybe that person wanted to not see you anymore? ;-)) | 12:54 |
| vuntz | didrocks: btw, coming to fosdem? | 12:54 |
| didrocks | vuntz: you found the real reason :) | 12:54 |
| didrocks | vuntz: yeah! you too? | 12:54 |
| vuntz | of course | 12:55 |
| didrocks | seb128: promis, for next release, I will have more time for such debugging stuff, and I will upgrade to 9.10 sooner in the release timeframe than now | 12:55 |
| didrocks | vuntz: great ;) | 12:55 |
| seb128 | vuntz: I bet that's the commit which broke it, http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gtk%2B?view=revision&revision=22227 | 12:57 |
| pochu | why are there so many french and germans over here, but so few spaniards? | 12:58 |
| * pochu feels alone | 12:58 | |
| * pochu hugs pedro_ ;) | 12:58 | |
| * pedro_ hugs pochu back | 12:59 | |
| didrocks | pochu: sorry for that :) | 12:59 |
| pochu | didrocks: no worries, just learn spanish ;) | 13:00 |
| didrocks | pochu: hum, I have to speak a better German first ^^ | 13:00 |
| pochu | danke | 13:04 |
| pochu | ^ that's all I can say in German ;) | 13:05 |
| huats | puedo hablar espanol tambien, si le quiere pochu | 13:05 |
| huats | ;) | 13:05 |
| pochu | huats: jeje, hablas bien :) | 13:05 |
| huats | ;) | 13:05 |
| pochu | huats: je voudrais parler français :) | 13:05 |
| huats | pochu: héhé :) | 13:05 |
| * huats start to think that this channel should change its language every day : english / german / french / spanish | 13:06 | |
| huats | so that we all learn something :) | 13:06 |
| pochu | or Python / C / ... | 13:07 |
| pochu | g_print("hi huats!"); | 13:07 |
| huats | ;) | 13:07 |
| crevette | Puedo hablar un poco de español | 13:07 |
| pochu | crevette: \o/ | 13:08 |
| crevette | pero no ha abla realmente desde la escuela | 13:08 |
| crevette | ablado perhaps | 13:08 |
| crevette | grrr | 13:08 |
| crevette | I just practiced a little for GUADEC in espagna | 13:09 |
| pochu | oh yeah | 13:10 |
| pochu | this year UDS, GUADEC and DebConf are all in Spain ;) | 13:10 |
| * pochu would like to attend them | 13:10 | |
| pochu | but maybe it's ETOOMANYCONF :) | 13:11 |
| === davmor2-lunch is now known as davmor2 | ||
| pitti | vuntz: do you have your modified 'gettext for .desktop" patches somewhere? | 14:24 |
| seb128 | pitti: do you have an idea on how to fix the icon names being translated issue? | 14:35 |
| seb128 | pitti: that was discussed yesterday on the channel not sure if you read about it | 14:35 |
| pitti | seb128: I thought that would basically be fixed by flipping around the priority? | 14:36 |
| pitti | i. e. using .desktop translations if present, fall back to gettext, and have our build scripts remove translations? | 14:36 |
| seb128 | pitti: I'm not sure since we don't have Icon[locale]= in the .desktop usually | 14:36 |
| pitti | well, if we never had translations for those in the first place, then this is out of focus for all those patches :) | 14:37 |
| pitti | seb128: I just read bug 95883 again | 14:37 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 95883 in nautilus ".desktop files on desktop do not use translations" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/95883 | 14:37 |
| * pitti is currently cleaning his assigned bug list | 14:37 | |
| seb128 | pitti: no, the issue is that one | 14:38 |
| seb128 | - get a desktop file using icon=gnome | 14:38 |
| seb128 | - get the same software having a _("gnome") string | 14:38 |
| seb128 | - get your translators to translate gnome to GNOME | 14:38 |
| seb128 | without the gettext change it uses the icon=gnome | 14:38 |
| seb128 | the gettext change will make it use gettext("gnome"), get GNOME and try use this one | 14:39 |
| pitti | ugh, for icon= as well? | 14:41 |
| seb128 | yes | 14:41 |
| pitti | that's indeed a bug, yes | 14:41 |
| pitti | which LP# is that? | 14:41 |
| tseliot | seb128: I'm working on the Gnome RandR Applet to add a checkbox which will allow setting the DontZap option in the xorg.conf. Shall I use policykit to get root privileges or is gksudo enough (for calling the dontzap program)? | 14:41 |
| seb128 | pitti: not sure about the bug number right now, dholbach was wondering why his xsane icon was not displayed yesterday and we had a similar issue on an application and german translations before intrepid but I didn't found the bug number using a quick search yesterday | 14:42 |
| mvo | I think policykit is the better option, maybe make it part of the ubuntu-sysstem-service thng if you don't want to build your own backend ? | 14:42 |
| tseliot | seb128: I've already implemented this for kubuntu: http://albertomilone.com/wordpress/?p=312 | 14:43 |
| seb128 | tseliot: using policykit would be better | 14:43 |
| mvo | tseliot: --^ | 14:43 |
| seb128 | ok, does somebody knows how to fix my screen resolution after using xrandr? | 14:43 |
| mvo | (or use ubuntu-system-service as a template for your own version, both should be fine. if it goes upstream the later is probably better) | 14:43 |
| tseliot | mvo: ubuntu-sysstem-service? | 14:43 |
| tseliot | seb128: what happened? | 14:44 |
| seb128 | I switch to 1360x768 and back to 1440x900 and now I get a 1360x768 usuable screen and randomly drawed margin around | 14:44 |
| seb128 | switched | 14:44 |
| mvo | tseliot: yes, its the backend that the global keyboard and proxy settings use | 14:44 |
| tseliot | mvo: where can I find the code? | 14:44 |
| mvo | tseliot: should be a good template for what you need | 14:44 |
| vuntz | pitti: let me send the patches to you. Right now, I think you need to create an account on the build service to get access to the patches :/ | 14:45 |
| seb128 | the mouse pointer will go in those margins but compiz consider the usuable part being 1360x768 | 14:45 |
| pitti | vuntz: ok, thanks (martin.pitt@ubuntu.com) | 14:45 |
| seb128 | vuntz: do you have this icon issue too? | 14:45 |
| seb128 | vuntz: or did you fix it? | 14:45 |
| mvo | tseliot: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/system-service/ubuntu | 14:45 |
| vuntz | seb128: which icon issue? | 14:46 |
| seb128 | vuntz: what I wrote to pitti one screen up there | 14:46 |
| tseliot | seb128: that bug was reported in the gnome bugzilla, it doesn't affect compiz only | 14:46 |
| tseliot | mvo: thanks | 14:46 |
| mvo | seb128: I have something for you: lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status | 14:48 |
| mvo | seb128: make a backup first ;) | 14:49 |
| mvo | seb128: it will make a backup for you as well, but ... | 14:49 |
| tseliot | seb128: that might depend on gdk | 14:50 |
| mvo | seb128: if that works nicely I may fold it into the system-cleaner | 14:50 |
| seb128 | mvo: ok, I will need to restart my box first I think, I don't manage to get back an usable screen after using xrandr and restarting the session makes compiz unusably slow | 14:51 |
| mvo | seb128: hm, wait a sec | 14:52 |
| mvo | seb128: need to fix a bug first | 14:52 |
| seb128 | mvo: ok, I'll restart anyway | 14:53 |
| mvo | ok | 14:53 |
| asac | pochu: do you know whether liferea not honouring NM offline state is intentional? | 14:55 |
| asac | or a regression from adding the "manual" online/offline toggle? | 14:56 |
| vuntz | pitti: hope I didn't forget any patch, tell me it's the case | 14:56 |
| vuntz | seb128: no problem with the icon stuff. We explicitly do the magic for only a few keys | 14:56 |
| seb128 | vuntz: ok, good | 14:57 |
| seb128 | pitti: bug #197763 was the icon issue, somebody closed the bug as fixed because it works in intrepid but that's probably because he didn't understand the issue | 14:57 |
| seb128 | the best way is probably to not look for gettext translations for the icon key | 14:58 |
| seb128 | seems that vuntz's patch does that | 14:58 |
| seb128 | vuntz: btw #gnome-hackers, the crash is indeed a gtk one | 14:58 |
| pitti | seb128: right, I'd only do it for Name=, GenericName=, and Description= | 14:58 |
| seb128 | Comment=? | 14:59 |
| seb128 | but right agreed | 15:01 |
| vuntz | pitti: that's what our patches do | 15:02 |
| pochu | asac: that would be a bug. I'll check it | 15:03 |
| pitti | vuntz: got them, thanks; I'd like to use them in ubuntu as well, so that we use the same ones, and then forward them upstream; ok with you? | 15:12 |
| vuntz | pitti: sure, feel free to use that. You'll want to s/SUSE/Ubuntu/ back and to remove the default to desktop_translations | 15:17 |
| vuntz | pitti: and also make sure to test they work for you :-) | 15:17 |
| mvo | seb128: I will also upload a patched dpkg to my ppa, that hopefully makes a speed difference as well | 15:17 |
| pitti | right (and for upstream use s/SUSE/GNOME/) | 15:17 |
| pitti | vuntz: what? *testing*? | 15:17 |
| pitti | sheesh | 15:17 |
| vuntz | pitti: I heard seb128 likes to test new packages | 15:17 |
| pitti | we have buildds and users for that !!!!11!! | 15:17 |
| asac | pochu: already filed 321473 | 15:18 |
| * pitti hugs vuntz | 15:18 | |
| mvo | asac: re update-manager - did you got the chance to check for the 3g stuff (I asked aobut that yesterday?) | 15:18 |
| pochu | asac: yeah, saw it. thanks | 15:18 |
| seb128 | mvo: ok, what should I get, build, install or try? | 15:18 |
| mvo | seb128: just bzr get lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status and run the script as root inside it | 15:19 |
| mvo | that will blow-up^Wcompact your status and available files | 15:19 |
| mvo | there is also a dpkg patch that avoids reading the available file that I'm currently building in my ppa, that should bring further speed improvements | 15:20 |
| seb128 | mvo: bug #321901, are those issues dpkg bugs? | 15:40 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 321901 in evolution-data-server "package evolution-data-server 2.24.2-0ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: failed in buffer_write(fd) (10, ret=-1): backend dpkg-deb during `./usr/lib/evolution-data-server-1.2/extensions/libecalbackendhttp.so'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/321901 | 15:40 |
| seb128 | mvo: btw what files should I backup before running your compact-dpkg-status | 15:41 |
| seb128 | and why do I need to unlock my ssh key to bzr get lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status? | 15:41 |
| mvo | seb128: the bug might be a cd issue or filesstem corruption, let me look | 15:44 |
| seb128 | mvo: we often get buffer_write(fd) errors | 15:45 |
| seb128 | I've 15 of those mails in my current bugmails box | 15:45 |
| mvo | IIRC the error is misleading (i.e. can be caused by many things), but I can have a look to be certain | 15:45 |
| mvo | seb128: please /var/lib/dpkg/status and available | 15:45 |
| mvo | seb128: it will make a backup for you too | 15:46 |
| seb128 | mvo: right, that bug is a no space on the disk one apparently | 15:46 |
| seb128 | looking through the mails most of those a no space issues | 15:47 |
| seb128 | brb | 15:47 |
| seb128 | mvo: do you know why I need to use my ssh passphrase to get that code? shouldn't a checkout be anonymous or does that give me right to commit too? | 15:59 |
| mvo | seb128: it should be anoymous, maybe bzr get lp:~ is now clever and checks with lp if the branch is writable or not | 16:01 |
| seb128 | mvo: well, I don't have write access to your code namespace | 16:02 |
| seb128 | mvo: you cleaning seems to speed up the reading the database time quite a lot | 16:14 |
| seb128 | "Removed 509 obsolete entries | 16:14 |
| seb128 | There are 0 packages that could be purged" | 16:14 |
| mvo | seb128: \o/ | 16:15 |
| seb128 | not sure if 509 is a lot for that database | 16:15 |
| mvo | seb128: I'm writing a system-cleaner plugin now and will make it part of update-manager | 16:15 |
| mvo | seb128: check how much you have installed, I guess around ~2000-3000 | 16:16 |
| seb128 | mvo: good | 16:16 |
| seb128 | mvo: how? | 16:16 |
| mvo | so that does make a difference | 16:16 |
| mvo | synaptic shows it in the status bar | 16:16 |
| seb128 | $ dpkg -l | grep ^ii | wc -l | 16:16 |
| seb128 | 2300 | 16:16 |
| mvo | heh :) | 16:16 |
| seb128 | you mean? | 16:16 |
| bryce | morning | 16:16 |
| mvo | that works well of course | 16:16 |
| mvo | seb128: yep | 16:16 |
| mvo | seb128: so 500 less to read nwo .) | 16:17 |
| mvo | now | 16:17 |
| mvo | hey bryce | 16:17 |
| mvo | seb128: https://edge.launchpad.net/~mvo/+archive/ppa?field.name_filter=dpkg&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=any <-there is a jaunty dpkg there that might be interessting as well | 16:17 |
| mvo | hopefully bring some further speedups | 16:17 |
| seb128 | mvo: you rock ;-) | 16:18 |
| * mvo beams | 16:19 | |
| rickspencer31 | hi all | 16:25 |
| rickspencer31 | Desktop Team meeting in 5 minutes | 16:25 |
| bryce | heya | 16:25 |
| Tm_T | on -meeting ? | 16:25 |
| pitti | argh, a number-of-rick-spencer explosion! | 16:25 |
| pitti | Tm_T: no, here | 16:26 |
| Tm_T | ah, good | 16:26 |
| pochu | asac: can you start liferea in Jaunty at all? It segfaults here in my VM | 16:26 |
| asac | pochu: i could ... but i fixed a bug to get it build at all | 16:28 |
| asac | @time | 16:30 |
| ubottu | Current time in Etc/UTC: January 27 2009, 16:30:06 - No meetings scheduled | 16:30 |
| asac | hi | 16:30 |
| * Tm_T hides | 16:30 | |
| asac | meeting time folks ;) | 16:30 |
| rickspencer31 | okay | 16:30 |
| rickspencer31 | Here's the link to the agenda | 16:30 |
| rickspencer31 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-01-27 | 16:30 |
| asac | pochu: uploaded ubuntu2 with that fix now | 16:30 |
| asac | pochu: dont think it helps your crashes | 16:30 |
| pochu | asac: thanks | 16:30 |
| pochu | asac: it's a SIGABRT | 16:31 |
| ArneGoetje | hi | 16:31 |
| pochu | on startup | 16:31 |
| pochu | seems to come from libnspr4.so | 16:31 |
| rickspencer31 | looks like everyone is here, except Till | 16:31 |
| rickspencer31 | shall we begin? | 16:31 |
| pochu | asac: let's continue later, meeting for you now ;) | 16:31 |
| asac | rickspencer31: how do you know everyone is here ;) | 16:31 |
| rickspencer31 | well, they are signed into the channel at least | 16:32 |
| asac | seb128: pitti: bryce: calc: Riddell: ping | 16:32 |
| * pitti pung Till | 16:32 | |
| asac | rickspencer31: yeah. better summon to get their attention ;) | 16:32 |
| rickspencer31 | apparantly | 16:32 |
| bryce | asac, I'm here | 16:32 |
| pitti | asac: [17:25] pitti| argh, a number-of-rick-spencer explosion! | 16:32 |
| seb128 | asac: I'm there | 16:32 |
| pitti | OEM meeting finished right on time \o/ | 16:32 |
| pochu | asac: wait! I have xul 1.9.1 installed for some reason. I guess that's the cause | 16:32 |
| asac | pitti: :) | 16:33 |
| asac | pochu: oh ... thats a bug then | 16:33 |
| asac | pochu: -> lets continue in #ubuntu-mozillateam :) | 16:33 |
| calc | i'm here | 16:33 |
| Riddell | hi | 16:33 |
| * calc notes he is always in this channel except when his pc or broadband is dead ;-) | 16:33 | |
| rickspencer31 | ok, let's start | 16:34 |
| rickspencer31 | first is outstanding business from the last meeting | 16:34 |
| rickspencer31 | spec approval: I see that Arne has just set his last spec to "pending approval" | 16:34 |
| pitti | ah, too close for the meeting, didn't see it yet | 16:35 |
| pitti | will review ASAP | 16:35 |
| rickspencer31 | how about jaunty-desktop-network-changing? | 16:35 |
| rickspencer31 | asac: was this the one that you were going to add test cases to, etc...? | 16:36 |
| asac | not sure ... there certainly will be no implementer for that. i filed bugs for the issues i found | 16:36 |
| pitti | asac: ^ that's mostly handled as a set of bugs now, is it? | 16:37 |
| asac | and i am also suggesting fixes where possible | 16:37 |
| rickspencer31 | ok, is there a status that we can set it to so it does not appear that action is required? | 16:37 |
| pitti | I'm happy with adding the bug #s to the whiteboard, skip the wiki page, and approve it like that | 16:37 |
| pitti | so that we have a blueprint for tracking goal and assignment, but not waste duplicating the bug descriptions | 16:38 |
| asac | pitti: the wiki page can still be linked. it doesnt hardm | 16:38 |
| pitti | s/waste/& time/ | 16:38 |
| asac | harm | 16:38 |
| asac | maybe from whiteboard | 16:38 |
| asac | too | 16:38 |
| pitti | as you wish, just a proposal to keep things easy | 16:38 |
| rickspencer31 | okay, sounds good | 16:38 |
| rickspencer31 | moving on | 16:38 |
| rickspencer31 | kubuntu-jaunty-kde-packaging | 16:38 |
| calc | at&t just arrived, they have perfect timing :\ | 16:38 |
| Tm_T | calc: say hi from me | 16:39 |
| rickspencer31 | calc: n/p | 16:39 |
| rickspencer31 | Riddell: is there something blocking this last spec from getting approved? | 16:39 |
| Riddell | we still havn't made a final decision on IRC client | 16:40 |
| pitti | it's still 'drafting' | 16:40 |
| Riddell | which was martin's sticking point for approval | 16:40 |
| Riddell | we have a meeting tonight for it | 16:40 |
| rickspencer31 | okay | 16:40 |
| Riddell | although we're also blocked on MIR anyway | 16:40 |
| rickspencer31 | what can we do to unblock the spec? | 16:41 |
| pitti | wait for the meeting/decision to happen? :-) | 16:41 |
| rickspencer31 | what about the Main Inclusion Report? | 16:42 |
| Tm_T | Riddell: we have three irc client possibilities? | 16:42 |
| Riddell | MIR is blocked on security review. security reviews usually take months or don't happen at all in my experience | 16:42 |
| rickspencer31 | okay | 16:42 |
| rickspencer31 | I'll take an action item to see if I can move that along | 16:43 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up on status of security review for MIR | 16:43 |
| rickspencer31 | there's also this mysterious blueprint ldap-defaultdit-usergrp-mgmt | 16:43 |
| rickspencer31 | is that supposed to be on the server team? | 16:44 |
| pitti | that's not our's | 16:44 |
| pitti | you are looking at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty ? | 16:44 |
| pitti | those are for all teams | 16:44 |
| rickspencer31 | ok | 16:45 |
| rickspencer31 | moving on then | 16:45 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: you tagged your pet bugs, right? | 16:45 |
| * pitti strokes his pet bugs and enjoys hearing them purr | 16:46 | |
| * rickspencer31 ^^ | 16:46 | |
| bryce | rickspencer31: yup | 16:46 |
| rickspencer31 | in terms of conference attendance, please refer to the wiki for the resolution | 16:46 |
| rickspencer31 | Add/Remove... | 16:47 |
| rickspencer31 | so essentially Jane just bounced it back to me to come up with a name, etc... | 16:47 |
| rickspencer31 | we have an agenda item to briefly discuss in a few minutes | 16:47 |
| seb128 | so much discussions about a label | 16:47 |
| rickspencer31 | moving on | 16:48 |
| rickspencer31 | new GDM was packaged (yeah seb128) | 16:48 |
| rickspencer31 | also sprint topics consolidated and put on the wiki | 16:49 |
| rickspencer31 | those were all the actions from last week | 16:49 |
| rickspencer31 | any questions? | 16:49 |
| Riddell | what wiki page? | 16:49 |
| Riddell | for conference attendance? | 16:49 |
| pitti | I think we should have enough items for the sprint to keep us busy | 16:49 |
| rickspencer31 | Riddell: I'll /msg you in a few. It's on an internal wiki | 16:50 |
| rickspencer31 | in terms of the sprint, as you can see, there are a few Dx topics, so we'll be working with them quite a bit | 16:50 |
| rickspencer31 | also, I wanted to remind pitti and seb128 about the efficient bug handling workshop | 16:51 |
| seb128 | right | 16:51 |
| rickspencer31 | any questions/comments/concerns about the sprint? | 16:51 |
| pitti | that sounds like prep needed | 16:51 |
| pitti | what should the workshop be about? | 16:51 |
| rickspencer31 | what I am hoping for is a hands on demonstration for how to manage a large number of bugs, both LP and email | 16:52 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: you got my comments on sprint topics already? | 16:52 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: not sure, did you email them? | 16:52 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: yep | 16:52 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: should I follow up in email? | 16:53 |
| bryce | sure | 16:53 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: I'll think about it | 16:53 |
| rickspencer31 | pitti: thanks | 16:54 |
| rickspencer31 | so moving on ... | 16:54 |
| rickspencer31 | Add/Remove... | 16:54 |
| rickspencer31 | I think this is very important to do right | 16:54 |
| rickspencer31 | managing your software is a critical part of the user experience, and can be delightful or a pain in a** | 16:55 |
| asac | imo we have to create redundancy so users find it | 16:55 |
| rickspencer31 | I propose that we approach the whole space holistically in Jaunty +1 | 16:55 |
| asac | entry in applications + entry in administration ... and maybe even somewhere else | 16:55 |
| rickspencer31 | and don't change the label, etc... in Jaunty | 16:55 |
| rickspencer31 | thoughts? | 16:55 |
| bryce | yep | 16:56 |
| pitti | what does 'holistic' mean here? | 16:56 |
| rickspencer31 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareLibrary | 16:56 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: I think a number of improvements could be done to how the menu works; just changing the name sort of feels bikeshed-painting-ish | 16:56 |
| rickspencer31 | holistic = the whole system, not just each sub-component | 16:56 |
| bryce | pitti: means take a larger view of the whole and consider deeper or more fundamental improvements | 16:57 |
| Tm_T | rickspencer31: also it just have to work, and never remove something without user knowing it etc, but this is so obvious | 16:57 |
| bryce | pitti: like instead of taking diet pills, to instead exercise and eat more vegetables :-) | 16:57 |
| seb128 | asac: we already have too many menu items in the system menus don't add extra ones there | 16:57 |
| pitti | bryce: right, but that in the context of finding a label name seemed weird to me :) | 16:57 |
| rickspencer31 | For example, if we decide it should be called a "Library" make the system behave like a library, including the apps, etc..., not just change the name to library | 16:57 |
| asac | seb128: well. i think users dont expect it in applications | 16:58 |
| * tedg really is hoping for a comeback of the Dewey decimal system | 16:58 | |
| asac | having it there is good | 16:58 |
| Tm_T | consistency | 16:58 |
| asac | but we need it somewhere else | 16:58 |
| rickspencer31 | also, I think users can get annoyed by changing menus and such when nothing important changes | 16:58 |
| rickspencer31 | so agreed that we keep the label in Jaunty and discuss the whole system at UDS for Jaunty +1? | 16:59 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: has there been usability analysis so far on this? | 16:59 |
| pitti | ack | 16:59 |
| rickspencer31 | I'm open to feedback if anyone feels this is the wrong approach | 16:59 |
| asac | yes. giving us some ramp up time is sensible | 16:59 |
| bryce | agreed | 16:59 |
| asac | (so ack on this) | 17:00 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: I wouldn't mind naming it "Add/Remove applications..." to make clear that it's not a menu editor | 17:00 |
| pitti | ah, or just "Install/Remove" (shorter) | 17:00 |
| rickspencer31 | pitti: do you think that's the right thing to do? | 17:00 |
| seb128 | pitti: Add/Remove applications...", how do you translate it in german? | 17:00 |
| asac | i think we have to really discuss what we want and why this came now up | 17:01 |
| pitti | seb128: "Anwendungen hinzufuegen/entfernen" | 17:01 |
| asac | aparently there were complains, so we should listen and address them | 17:01 |
| seb128 | pitti: so you would have an application menu scaling to that label, looks really weird, we did try | 17:01 |
| bryce | asac: definitely agreed | 17:01 |
| rickspencer31 | asac: look back at the original mail thread that we started, the design rationale is in there | 17:01 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: if people are confused by the label, then we shold make the label clearer; if people don't look in the app menu to change apps, we need to move it, so the discussion so far seemed to match that | 17:01 |
| pitti | seb128: thus Install/Remove, if that's clearer (it is shorter) | 17:02 |
| asac | rickspencer31: to which mailing list did that go to? | 17:02 |
| rickspencer31 | pitti: but *are* people confused by the label. That wasn't really why the change was suggested. It was suggested to make the feature seem sexier | 17:02 |
| calc | i'm temporarily back until at&t decides to kill my line again | 17:02 |
| bryce | sexier ... | 17:02 |
| seb128 | pitti: right | 17:02 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: personally I didn't hear any complaints | 17:02 |
| Tm_T | bryce: one moment, I put my pants on | 17:02 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: yeah, like Apple has the Apple store, which users think is so cool | 17:02 |
| seb128 | the issue is that we have no good way to get feedback on such things, users who are technical enough to send bugs figure where to find the softwares they need and what they do | 17:03 |
| rickspencer31 | okay, it is clear to me that we could change the name of the label, but it is not clear to me that it would accomplish anything worthwhile | 17:03 |
| tedg | Apple has a store, Google has a marketplace, we should have a Bazaar :) | 17:03 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: ahh, so maybe the first step is to do an analysis of that, and identify what aspects users find to be cool? | 17:03 |
| rickspencer31 | tedg: aweseom | 17:03 |
| Tm_T | tedg: webshop interface! | 17:03 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: right | 17:03 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: and this gets back to my earlier point that simply changing the name maybe not enough to achieve that, it just puts new lipstick on the pig | 17:04 |
| rickspencer31 | any more thoughts? If not, I'll start a blueprint and we can discuss there | 17:04 |
| asac | store/marketplace/bazaar -> all non-free ;) | 17:04 |
| asac | "magic box" ;) | 17:04 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: are you calling Sara Palin a pig? | 17:04 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: oink | 17:04 |
| rickspencer31 | ok ... moving on | 17:05 |
| rickspencer31 | Pet bug status | 17:05 |
| calc | oh btw OOo 3.0.1 is released today :) | 17:05 |
| rickspencer31 | who has fixed pet bugs? | 17:05 |
| bryce | I worked on them a bit yesterday | 17:05 |
| * calc will once he gets 3.0.1 uploaded maybe today/tomorrow | 17:05 | |
| * asac didnt find time to go to his petting zoo yet | 17:05 | |
| asac | ;) | 17:06 |
| bryce | most of mine I picked were just low hanging stuff so not really that difficult, just had been low on the priority list | 17:06 |
| rickspencer31 | ok | 17:06 |
| rickspencer31 | please let me know what I can do to help everyone find time to work on this? | 17:06 |
| rickspencer31 | should we consider maybe blacking out a day at the sprint just for this? | 17:06 |
| bryce | but I did manage to thoroughly clean up xkeyboard-config in the process :-) | 17:06 |
| rickspencer31 | other ideas? | 17:06 |
| asac | pet-bugs are side tasks for me | 17:06 |
| asac | they get done when i need distraction | 17:07 |
| pitti | I fixed my first pet bug last week, but it was a really big one | 17:07 |
| pitti | I want to interleave bug triage, simple bug fixing, and pet bug fixing, to divide attention equally | 17:07 |
| rickspencer31 | This should be a benefit for everyone, in that we are limiting feature work so that you can get to items that you've been wanting to get to. So please let me know what I can do to help you make time for the pet bugs. | 17:08 |
| pitti | if those are considered a priority, we can certainly make them a priority :) | 17:08 |
| bryce | http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Graphs/totals.svg | 17:09 |
| rickspencer31 | this doesn't displace regressions and other high priority incoming issues, so it's not a priority in that sense. However, it is a chance to get to some work that may be important to individuals. | 17:10 |
| rickspencer31 | ok | 17:10 |
| rickspencer31 | Language selector | 17:11 |
| === bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth | ||
| rickspencer31 | essentially, mvo would like to move this responsibility to our team, but has some work to do on it for Jaunty. | 17:11 |
| rickspencer31 | is anyone willing to look into taking over for mvo in Jaunty? and also, someone will have to pick it up after Jaunty I suppose. | 17:12 |
| Riddell | doesn't ArneGoetje do that? | 17:12 |
| asac | language selector or update manager? the former is done by arne i think | 17:13 |
| rickspencer31 | ArneGoetje works on the UI, but there are some backend pieces that he needs help on | 17:13 |
| ArneGoetje | I do some stuff on that, like the GUI rework, but deeper system level is too high for me | 17:13 |
| * ArneGoetje is not a coder... | 17:13 | |
| asac | deeper system level sounds like foundation ;) | 17:13 |
| ArneGoetje | asac: ploicy kit, package kit, dbus... basically | 17:13 |
| pitti | I guess in the end we have to wait until we get more staff, to have some breathing room again | 17:14 |
| rickspencer31 | ok | 17:14 |
| asac | ack ... ENOTIMEHEREATALL | 17:14 |
| pitti | I'm happy to help with technical questions about dbus/PK, etc. | 17:14 |
| pitti | but I'm afraid ATM we simply lack the manpower to do it | 17:14 |
| pitti | well, there might be some community interest | 17:14 |
| asac | ArneGoetje: can you focus on stuff that doesnt need major fixes in the backend? | 17:14 |
| asac | (for now) | 17:14 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: rickspencer3 to work with mvo/robbiew to get the work for Language selector done for Jaunty | 17:15 |
| pitti | ArneGoetje: do you happen to know some community members which can code, and are interested in it? | 17:15 |
| ArneGoetje | asac: doing that already | 17:15 |
| asac | ah ok | 17:15 |
| ArneGoetje | pitti: no, not yet | 17:15 |
| rickspencer31 | how would we solicit community involvement on this? | 17:15 |
| asac | blogging about it ... how sexy it is | 17:16 |
| asac | and about the areas that deserve some love | 17:16 |
| pitti | u-devel@ | 17:16 |
| rickspencer31 | can someone here own reaching out to the community on that? | 17:16 |
| asac | yes, supplemented with posting to devel | 17:16 |
| pitti | Subject: You too can be a star! | 17:16 |
| rickspencer31 | working with mvo of course | 17:16 |
| asac | we trade a 2 month featured slot on hall of fame for that ;) | 17:17 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: rickspencer3 to coordinate working with mvo/robbiew to see if we can get community involvement on language selector | 17:17 |
| pitti | ArneGoetje: you certainly know best what kind of changes we need in it? | 17:17 |
| ArneGoetje | pitti: you mean for jaunty+1? | 17:18 |
| pitti | ArneGoetje: for both specs (UI rework (jaunty) and new features (jaunty+1)) | 17:18 |
| ArneGoetje | pitti: I know the ideas, but not necessarily the programming details | 17:18 |
| pitti | ArneGoetje: right, I mean what needs to be done, not 'how' | 17:19 |
| ArneGoetje | pitti: yes | 17:19 |
| rickspencer31 | I'll work with ArneGoetje on that as well (though he is on holiday this week) | 17:20 |
| rickspencer31 | Release Status: everyone sent me details of their spec status. I will compile and share. | 17:20 |
| rickspencer31 | any other comments on release status? | 17:20 |
| rickspencer31 | Feature freeze in 2/19 | 17:21 |
| rickspencer31 | everyone sent activity reports, so thanks for that | 17:21 |
| rickspencer31 | Any other business? | 17:21 |
| pitti | we won't have an IRC meeting next week, I take it | 17:22 |
| rickspencer31 | good point | 17:22 |
| seb128 | not sure if the gtk issue I raised is to discuss in a meeting or the lists rather | 17:22 |
| rickspencer31 | no meeting next week (as the canonical team will be together on a sprint) | 17:22 |
| asac | seb128: gtk issue? | 17:23 |
| Riddell | MIR processing would be nice (Quassel has the security review needed but other ones don't) | 17:23 |
| pitti | ^ understood | 17:23 |
| asac | i will do a few mirs tomorrow again | 17:23 |
| seb128 | asac: basically the directfb backend is an issue, nobody is working on it, it's not in a buildable nor usuable state and takes me hours to workaround the issue every time | 17:23 |
| rickspencer31 | seb128: could you explain the issue briefly, and the dependency on it | 17:23 |
| asac | not sure if i have the list you gave me yesterday though. | 17:23 |
| asac | but probably easy to spot | 17:24 |
| asac | seb128: do we need it? | 17:24 |
| pitti | Colin just responded that the server team asked for a graphical installer in Jaunty | 17:24 |
| seb128 | I don't know how to test it, I've enough to do to not spend days on directfb and I've no interest working it | 17:24 |
| pitti | but frankly it's the first time I hear about it | 17:24 |
| seb128 | asac: it's using by d-i and we want an ubuntu d-i apparently | 17:24 |
| pitti | so far nothing in the entire archive is using it | 17:24 |
| asac | hmm | 17:24 |
| pitti | it's not used by d-i just yet | 17:24 |
| seb128 | but we basically need to take over upstream to maintain it | 17:25 |
| seb128 | I workarounded to get it built but they did architectural changes in recent cycles which need non trivial directfb code updates | 17:25 |
| pitti | we should discuss that with the server team, since that will be a significant cost | 17:25 |
| pitti | and personally I'm not at all convinced that it's a good idea to maintain a third installer... | 17:25 |
| rickspencer31 | pitti: why wouldn't they just use ubiquity? | 17:26 |
| pitti | I don't know | 17:26 |
| tedg | No X11, right? | 17:26 |
| asac | probably because they want to have a graphical installer without X | 17:26 |
| * pitti sobs | 17:27 | |
| rickspencer31 | pitti: could you follow up with Colin? Perhaps let him know the costs involved and get some more details about their requirements? | 17:27 |
| seb128 | I'm wondering if the static gtk built it useful too but that's not an issue, it just takes build time and disk space | 17:28 |
| seb128 | (not really a meeting item for this one) | 17:28 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: will do | 17:28 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: pitti to discuss costs and requirements of graphical non-X based installers with cjwatson | 17:29 |
| rickspencer31 | was there something to discuss regarding Riddell's MIR question? | 17:29 |
| pitti | JFDI | 17:29 |
| rickspencer31 | ptti: is that an action item for you? | 17:29 |
| pitti | for ~ubuntu-mir, which comprises me, yes | 17:30 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: pitti to respond to MIR for Riddel/Kubuntu | 17:30 |
| asac | also i take a few i gues | 17:30 |
| asac | pitti: feel free to shove them to me if you want to split work on that | 17:31 |
| rickspencer31 | ACTION: pitti/asac to respond to MIR for Riddel/Kubuntu | 17:31 |
| rickspencer31 | I'm looking forward to next week | 17:31 |
| pitti | asac: I'd appreciate, yes | 17:31 |
| pitti | Berlin! | 17:31 |
| rickspencer31 | I guess I better start waking up earlier to move closer to Berlin time :P | 17:32 |
| asac | cu all in berlin! | 17:32 |
| rickspencer31 | I'll update the wiki later today. Thanks everyone | 17:32 |
| asac | thx | 17:32 |
| Tm_T | rickspencer31: thank you (: | 17:32 |
| ArneGoetje | thanks | 17:33 |
| rickspencer31 | ArneGoetje: have a great time with your family. See you next Monday | 17:33 |
| bryce | thanks | 17:33 |
| ArneGoetje | will do. CU | 17:33 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: btw on the non-X based installer issue, that feels like something that could get impacted by the KMS stuff. | 17:33 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: hmmm | 17:34 |
| pitti | thanks everyone, and safe travels | 17:34 |
| rickspencer31 | it sounds like maybe more of a hairball than it first appeared | 17:34 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: so esp. if part of the issue is lack of upstream on directfb, it may be a type of thing that would be worth waiting a bit and see how things fall into place | 17:34 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: directfb mail sent | 17:35 |
| rickspencer31 | so is the issue that servers won't have the capability of using X? | 17:35 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: I rather suspect they want to avoid the overhead of installing X | 17:35 |
| bryce | I don't know the details, but would guess so | 17:35 |
| rickspencer31 | so this installer isn't just to set up the machine the first time, it's a front end to apt? | 17:36 |
| pitti | rickspencer31: no, it's just initial installation | 17:36 |
| * pitti -> quick break | 17:36 | |
| rickspencer31 | ubiquity has to install x to run? | 17:36 |
| bryce | rickspencer31: no it doesn't, which is why I feel like I'm missing some additional background on the issue :-) | 17:39 |
| rickspencer31 | bryce: tx | 17:40 |
| tedg | bryce: It doesn't have to install X, but X has to be on the CD, right? | 17:41 |
| tedg | I imagine this is a "we hate anything that mentions X" more than a serious objection. | 17:42 |
| bryce | that's fine, I hate X too ;-) | 17:43 |
| bryce | wow, ubiquity has a lot of dependencies | 17:45 |
| tjaalton | the directfb installer is what debian uses | 18:24 |
| tjaalton | AIUI it's the default frontend | 18:24 |
| seb128 | tjaalton: right we know that, they didn't update gtk recently due to the lenny freeze though and will have the same issues | 18:27 |
| tjaalton | seb128: hum ok | 18:27 |
| seb128 | I'm not sure directfb is where we should spend efforts | 18:27 |
| tjaalton | what exactly needs to be done? | 18:28 |
| pochu | what uses directfb, the graphical installer in d-i? | 18:30 |
| pochu | because I thought the normal one was ncurses based :) | 18:30 |
| seb128 | tjaalton: now? the code needs to be updated for the offscreen rendering changes, they added some virtual functions and the backends need to be updated to use that, they also added new functions which are not implemented in the directfb backend | 18:30 |
| seb128 | tjaalton: the code also doesn't build using the current directfb version | 18:31 |
| seb128 | tjaalton: and that's only a start since they keep doing changes which need backends updates and nobody is working on the directfb changes | 18:31 |
| seb128 | pochu: right | 18:31 |
| seb128 | tjaalton: ie somebody needs to update the directfb to keep up with the gtk architecture changes | 18:32 |
| tjaalton | seb128: ok.. highly nontrivial then ;) | 18:32 |
| seb128 | I did ugly workaround for now | 18:32 |
| seb128 | ie implemented empty function for the one which need to be added | 18:33 |
| tjaalton | I tried it some time ago just for the kicks, but noticed that it didn't work. I'd use it if it were there, but don't know if I could fix it myself.. | 18:33 |
| tjaalton | sounds like it's beyond my skills | 18:34 |
| === calc_ is now known as calc | ||
| calc | i'm finally back :\ | 18:37 |
| * rickspencer31 offers calc a drink | 18:37 | |
| calc | at&t basically decided my line is broken and they need to send a crew out to fix it, not just one guy | 18:37 |
| calc | they even checked around nearby to see if any lines were usable and apparently none were | 18:38 |
| calc | so i have working dsl that just happens to drop randomly (due to SNR issues) until they fix my line properly | 18:38 |
| calc | my SNR goes from 2.0 - 11.0 with normal good being above 10.0 at all times | 18:39 |
| calc | they just called and think they fixed it, at the moment i'm not getting packet loss but the SNR is still below normal | 18:47 |
| * calc thinks he will switch to cable modem when he gets back from germany | 18:48 | |
| calc | rickspencer31: was there anything you needed to ask me about during the meeting? | 18:58 |
| walters_ | tedg: around? | 19:27 |
| dobey | rickspencer31: ping? should i bug you to get someone unsubscribed from a bug in lp? | 19:37 |
| dobey | rickspencer31: it's a bug against a desktop package in ubuntu | 19:38 |
| seb128 | you can unsubscribe yourself directly | 19:39 |
| dobey | how? (i'm not even sure what the lp username is) | 19:39 |
| seb128 | if you get the emails or are subscribed you have a lp account | 19:39 |
| dobey | i don't want to unsubscribe myself | 19:39 |
| seb128 | if that's a team get a member of the team to do it | 19:40 |
| dobey | i want to unsubscribe the twit with the autoresponder that keeps sending replies with useless comments in spanish :) | 19:40 |
| dobey | seb128: see all the useless replies on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icon-naming-utils/+bug/319991 from an autoresponder e-mail :( | 19:40 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 319991 in icon-naming-utils "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New] | 19:40 |
| seb128 | oh you can't do that, try asking on #launchpad then or open an question or their answer tracker asking them to do the change | 19:41 |
| dobey | hrmm, ok | 19:41 |
| seb128 | they use the answer tracker as a request tracker | 19:41 |
| seb128 | or you can get a reply on IRC directly | 19:41 |
| seb128 | bbl | 19:42 |
| dobey | hrmm, i wonder where kwwii is | 19:57 |
| dobey | he can probably solve this | 19:57 |
| dobey | though it would also be nice if i could get the comments deleted | 19:58 |
| Amaranth | dobey: Is that thing sending an autoreply when it gets an email about it's own autoreply? | 20:22 |
| dobey | Amaranth: yes, of course, what else would it do? | 20:22 |
| Amaranth | Send out an email only once to the same email | 20:22 |
| Amaranth | I never understood the point of an autoreply system sending out more than one to each person | 20:23 |
| tedg | walters_: I am now. | 20:49 |
| dobey | Amaranth: me either. but you know, most software is stupid in some way :( | 20:49 |
| walters_ | tedg: sweet. so i'm looking at the user-switch-control-IM applet in the context of gnome shell (actually would be nice if you could /j #gnome-shell on gimpnet), but one question I had with regards to your mockup is: how do i get to my contacts/ | 20:50 |
| walters_ | tedg: e.g. is there just another green circle on the panel for empathy's current UI? | 20:51 |
| tedg | walters_: Let me flip over there, and we'll continue there. | 20:51 |
| chrisccoulson | bryce - do you ever browse the ubuntuforums? | 21:01 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: no, I used to but just staying atop the bug tracker keeps me busy enough | 21:03 |
| chrisccoulson | yeah, i can imagine. the only reason i asked is because there appears to be a big ding-dong about switching on DontZap by default in Jaunty | 21:04 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: to be precise, it was X.org upstream that switched | 21:06 |
| bryce | we just opted not to override upstream in this case | 21:06 |
| chrisccoulson | ah, ok. people seem to be against it quite a bit | 21:06 |
| bryce | also please note that it was due to lobbying by community people that this was done to begin with | 21:06 |
| chrisccoulson | maybe i should point that out in the forums | 21:07 |
| chrisccoulson | people seem to be too lazy to edit their xorg.conf and add a single line | 21:07 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: in fact we'll be including a simple GUI tool before -beta for toggling it | 21:08 |
| bryce | for both KDE and GNOME | 21:08 |
| Amaranth | Their argument is they'll only know they need to turn it on after X freezes | 21:08 |
| chrisccoulson | yeah, but X shouldn't freeze | 21:09 |
| chrisccoulson | and there's another way to kill it | 21:09 |
| bryce | ctrl-alt-backspace does not always get you out of all freezes | 21:09 |
| Amaranth | I tried to explain this in that thread | 21:09 |
| seb128 | is there an equivalent way to do the same thing now? | 21:09 |
| chrisccoulson | alt+sysrq+k to kill all processes connected to the current VT | 21:09 |
| bryce | the sysreq key is better | 21:09 |
| Amaranth | Of course my keyboard doesn't have a sysrq key... | 21:09 |
| chrisccoulson | print screen? | 21:09 |
| bryce | and ctrl-alt-backspace is probably better for "normal" session exiting | 21:10 |
| dobey | Amaranth: is it a mac? | 21:10 |
| Amaranth | And it wouldn't help anyway as it would cause a VT switch which means I'm screwed since I have intel :( | 21:10 |
| Amaranth | dobey: It is | 21:10 |
| chrisccoulson | i would argue that ctrl+alt+backspace probably isn't good for "normal" session exiting ;) | 21:10 |
| dobey | i don't remember which key works for sysrq on those :( | 21:10 |
| Amaranth | ctrl+alt+backspace should open gnome-system-monitor now ;) | 21:11 |
| chrisccoulson | although, i don't know how Xorg quits when you press it. Does everything running on that console literally just die? | 21:11 |
| bryce | for the argument of not knowing to turn it on until after X freezes, an end user could make an equivalent argument that they currently only know to turn it *off* after losing work due to fat-fingering ctrl-alt-backspace or something | 21:11 |
| Amaranth | dobey: It's F15 but I don't have F15 either | 21:11 |
| chrisccoulson | i agree bryce. and some people wouldn't even know the combination existed if X froze, whether it was enabled or not | 21:11 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: yes the Zap key kills everything | 21:11 |
| chrisccoulson | which part of the community did the lobbying come from? | 21:12 |
| Amaranth | bryce: Only if X itself isn't stuck though, that's why sysrq is better, right? | 21:13 |
| Amaranth | And I thought it didn't kill everything, everything just died because X went away | 21:13 |
| bryce | Amaranth: right | 21:13 |
| Amaranth | I know some processes tend to stick around for a bit after you zap X | 21:14 |
| bryce | Amaranth: correct, it doesn't take action against processes, it just kills the parent process, and the child processes just die | 21:14 |
| bryce | +on their own | 21:14 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: it'd be quite appreciated if you could share these data with the forums community | 21:16 |
| chrisccoulson | yeah, i don't mind doing that | 21:16 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: for ubuntu we had a blueprint open for over a year for this change but could not achieve any sort of consensus - every time it seemed there was one favoring one patch or another, or not changing, suddenly a contingent sprang up with the opposing view | 21:17 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: so was sort of a relief to see upstream make the decision for us ;-) | 21:17 |
| chrisccoulson | yeah, that's a bit easier. so this will be the same across most distro's soon, unless they choose to alter it? | 21:18 |
| bryce | correct | 21:19 |
| bryce | also please let them know that I probably hate this change more than anyone, since I'm constantly testing X, finding bugs, and needing to get out of frozen X's. ;-) | 21:20 |
| chrisccoulson | yeah, i'll do that;) | 21:20 |
| bryce | but I figure at the same time, I know enough to know how to switch the option on, or use other means of restarting X | 21:20 |
| bryce | whereas the poor people impacted by accidentally hitting zap aren't going to know wtf happened, and there's a lot of those kinds out there, so it's sort of better for them not to have it on by default | 21:21 |
| bryce | chrisccoulson: thanks :-) | 21:24 |
| chrisccoulson | you're welcome | 21:24 |
| Amaranth | Arguing about DontZap is just like arguing about rm -rf / not working anymore | 21:30 |
| Amaranth | btw, it's really neat that you can't do that anymore | 21:30 |
| seb128 | not really | 21:31 |
| seb128 | one is an useful thing sometimes the other is not | 21:31 |
| dobey | the majority of uses i have for zap in X are because session management is pretty much never implemented correctly | 21:33 |
| pochu | I think it would had been a much more sane default to allow ctrl+alt+backspace it pressed 3 times in a row (like press ctrl+alt and then backspace 3 times) | 21:33 |
| pochu | that would have worked for everybody IMHO | 21:33 |
| seb128 | that or keep it pressed for some seconds | 21:33 |
| pochu | yeah | 21:34 |
| Amaranth | seb128: Both are dangerous things users do without necessarily knowing what they do | 21:34 |
| pochu | I understand people may press ctrl+alt+backspace accidentally... but pressing 3 times in a row accidentally? :-) | 21:35 |
| seb128 | right but one case is useful to some users where the other is not | 21:35 |
| Amaranth | So...anyone know if gnome-shell will have an "I want to use compiz" mode? | 21:37 |
| walters | Amaranth: the old gnome-panel will be maintained for a while, and of course there's a ton of choices like XFCE for people who want to build their own desktop from parts | 21:39 |
| Amaranth | So that's a no | 21:40 |
| Amaranth | *sigh* | 21:40 |
| Amaranth | walters: Will nautilus still have the ability to draw the desktop? | 21:44 |
| Amaranth | walters: What reason is there to combine metacity and gnome-panel? | 21:45 |
| Amaranth | You can have gnome-shell call out to the WM to do things, compiz can do those things | 21:46 |
| Amaranth | We even have a way to do them via dbus | 21:46 |
| walters | Amaranth: it's a lot easier to do things in process than using dbus between separate processes; anyways we | 21:49 |
| walters | Amaranth: 're pretty far along in modifying metacity | 21:49 |
| === bluesmoke_ is now known as Amaranth | ||
| dobey | seb128: ping? | 22:08 |
| seb128 | dobey: hi? | 22:11 |
| dobey | seb128: i was wondering if the latest evo packages have been updated in jaunty, and if they require a system libical | 22:12 |
| seb128 | dobey: not yet, a contributor has been working on it and they might be uploaded tomorrow though, they don't require libical yet but the next version due next week will | 22:13 |
| dobey | seb128: ah ok, i was just wondering if the requiring system libical would break evolution-webcal which just relies on libecal to get libical api | 22:15 |
| seb128 | I'm not sure but I don't think they plan to break any api, they just start using the system version rather than the copy they had in the eds source | 22:15 |
| seb128 | I will try if evolution-webcal still works when doing the update and let you know | 22:16 |
| dobey | ok, thanks | 22:16 |
| seb128 | you're welcome | 22:16 |
| hggdh | seb128, ping | 22:19 |
| seb128 | hggdh: when I was writting on the chan some minutes ago no need to ping just ask your questions ;-) | 22:19 |
| asac | mpt: are there any general UI best-practices on how to communicate dialog/form user input errors in a minimal disruptive fashion (like when a dialog would have the OK button disabled) | 22:20 |
| hggdh | sorry, did not even pay attention on the time stamps | 22:20 |
| asac | ? | 22:20 |
| hggdh | how can I get my libical reviewed? | 22:20 |
| hggdh | sorry, not libical, but libpst | 22:21 |
| seb128 | hggdh: I though we synced the current version on debian? | 22:21 |
| hggdh | seb128, ^^ | 22:21 |
| seb128 | hggdh: subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors | 22:21 |
| hggdh | k | 22:22 |
| seb128 | hggdh: it's on my todolist but not really high priority, I will have a look after getting e-d-s and evo 2.25 in jaunty | 22:22 |
| seb128 | but better to have that on the sponsoring list | 22:22 |
| seb128 | so other people can look at it too and it's on a public list of things to review | 22:23 |
| seb128 | jcastro: hey, there seems there is no component on launchpad for gnome-python-desktop or I'm overlooking things again there? | 22:24 |
| hggdh | seb128, universe-sponsors is subscribed, and I also opened a debian bug for it | 22:24 |
| seb128 | hggdh: thanks | 22:24 |
| jcastro | seb128: you're right, I'm on it. | 22:25 |
| seb128 | jcastro: thanks | 22:26 |
| seb128 | jcastro: could be the same for gnome-python-extras | 22:26 |
| petski | Could one of you please take a look at LP bug 276603. It's an SRU for main | 22:31 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 276603 in rhythmbox "crashed while listening to a mp3 podcast" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/276603 | 22:31 |
| seb128 | petski: the configure changes are not appropriates for a sru otherwise it looks correct | 22:33 |
| seb128 | petski: could you update the debdiff to use a correct version, intrepid-proposed as upload target and don't change the control | 22:33 |
| seb128 | petski: configure -> control | 22:33 |
| jcastro | seb128: all set on both | 22:34 |
| seb128 | jcastro: thanks! | 22:34 |
| petski | lintian complained about the control file, therefor I modified it | 22:34 |
| jcastro | seb128: I need to guinea pig you next week | 22:35 |
| jcastro | seb128: gmb has this thing that will do upstream open tasks by default and I need you to kick the tires. | 22:35 |
| seb128 | petski: right, those are only minor warnings though and we restrict the changes to what is required in srus, no cosmetic changes ;-) | 22:35 |
| seb128 | jcastro: ok sure | 22:35 |
| petski | ok. I will upload a new debdiff in a couple of minutes | 22:36 |
| seb128 | petski: thanks, I will sponsor the upload | 22:36 |
| petski | thanks | 22:36 |
| petski | seb128: I've updated bug 276603 with the new debdiff | 22:55 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 276603 in rhythmbox "crashed while listening to a mp3 podcast" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/276603 | 22:55 |
| seb128 | petski: thanks | 22:55 |
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