=== bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth
=== Hobbsee` is now known as Hobbsee
=== BugMaN1 is now known as BugMaN
huatsmorning all09:11
didrocksmorning everybody :)09:15
seb128lut huats didrocks09:15
didrockslut seb12809:15
huatshey didrocks and seb12809:16
=== cassidy` is now known as cassidy
=== asac_ is now known as asac
seb128why is jaunty so sloooow10:38
seb128mvo: hey10:38
mvodon't look at me seb12810:38
Tm_Tseb128: because otherwise it would be too fast10:38
* mvo pretends to be inocennt10:38
seb128mvo: do you have any clue about what package installation is getting so slooooow over time10:38
mvoseb128: yes, dpkg10:39
seb128mvo: ie it's hammering the disk for 15 seconds before starting unpacking now10:39
mvoseb128: it reads the available file all the time and keeps track of cruft in the status file10:39
Tm_Tpackagekit ?10:39
seb128when I installed hardy on this laptop that was taking a second or so10:39
mvoseb128: at least that was the reaosn last I checked10:39
seb128mvo: is there any way to clean the cruft?10:39
mvoseb128: I could write you a little cleanup thing and you can test10:39
mvoseb128: but make a backup first ;)10:40
seb128I'll reinstall if that doesn't work anyway10:40
mvoseb128: sure, I can do that after lunch, please nudge me abou tit again10:40
seb128it's too slow to be usable10:40
seb128dpkg -i used to be instantanous10:40
mvoseb128: a drastic measure, we should do better10:40
seb128and now it takes 15 seconds before starting10:40
mvoright, lets try that then10:40
mvoand see if it helps10:40
seb128I'm wondering if jaunty io performances are not also to blame10:41
seb128session login is taking ages too10:41
seb128mvo: ok thanks, enjoy your lunch ;-)10:41
mvoseb128: cool, please do not reinstall quite yet, you will be my ginie pig (I don't know how to spell that ;)10:41
crevetteduring the boot, I seen the disk doesn't work for a couple of second, I wonder what the boot process is waiting for10:42
crevette(hello by the way)10:42
seb128lut crevette10:45
seb128crevette: you can use bootchart to do look at that10:45
crevetteyep I should do that10:45
seb128ok, no cookie for gtk today either12:32
seb1282.15.1 made gdm crash directly12:32
seb1282.15.2 makes gnome-panel crash now12:32
seb128let's wait for 2.15.312:32
pittiseb128: oh, that's gtk?12:33
pittiseb128: I recently disabled compiz because it immediately crashes at session startup12:33
pittimetacity works12:33
seb128pitti: no, I didn't upload any of those buggy version12:33
pittiah, ok12:33
seb128I do run updates gtk for a while before uploading12:33
seb128gtk updates rather12:34
seb128let's try another quick session restart to try that xorg issue too12:34
vuntzseb128 always leaves when I want him :-)12:35
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor2-lunch
seb128ok, jaunty is no fun to use right now12:47
seb128xorg is unusable slow after a session restart, need to reboot the box to fix it12:47
seb128let's stop playing with crashing gtk and borked xorg now and do some work ;-)12:48
seb128not to mention that boot and session start takes ages on jaunty12:49
vuntzseb128: is the panel crash something like gnome bug 569311?12:49
ubottuGnome bug 569311 in general "Panel stuck in endless crash-restart loop after launching an app" [Critical,Needinfo] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56931112:50
seb128vuntz: not exactly the same stacktrace but something around the same lines12:51
seb128vuntz: reassing the bug to gtk, that's 2.15.2 being buggy12:52
didrocksseb128: I will not repeat again that someone asks me to dist-upgrade to jaunty instead of using vm :-p12:53
seb128didrocks: if nobody run into those issues they are not going to be fixed either ;-)12:53
vuntzdidrocks: do it!12:54
vuntzdidrocks: (maybe that person wanted to not see you anymore? ;-))12:54
vuntzdidrocks: btw, coming to fosdem?12:54
didrocksvuntz: you found the real reason :)12:54
didrocksvuntz: yeah! you too?12:54
vuntzof course12:55
didrocksseb128: promis, for next release, I will have more time for such debugging stuff, and I will upgrade to 9.10 sooner in the release timeframe than now12:55
didrocksvuntz: great ;)12:55
seb128vuntz: I bet that's the commit which broke it, http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gtk%2B?view=revision&revision=2222712:57
pochuwhy are there so many french and germans over here, but so few spaniards?12:58
* pochu feels alone12:58
* pochu hugs pedro_ ;)12:58
* pedro_ hugs pochu back12:59
didrockspochu: sorry for that :)12:59
pochudidrocks: no worries, just learn spanish ;)13:00
didrockspochu: hum, I have to speak a better German first ^^13:00
pochu^ that's all I can say in German ;)13:05
huatspuedo hablar espanol tambien, si le quiere pochu13:05
pochuhuats: jeje, hablas bien :)13:05
pochuhuats: je voudrais parler français :)13:05
huatspochu: héhé :)13:05
* huats start to think that this channel should change its language every day : english / german / french / spanish13:06
huatsso that we all learn something :)13:06
pochuor Python / C / ...13:07
pochug_print("hi huats!");13:07
crevettePuedo hablar un poco de español13:07
pochucrevette: \o/13:08
crevettepero no ha abla realmente desde la escuela13:08
crevetteablado perhaps13:08
crevetteI just practiced a little for GUADEC in espagna13:09
pochuoh yeah13:10
pochuthis year UDS, GUADEC and DebConf are all in Spain ;)13:10
* pochu would like to attend them13:10
pochubut maybe it's ETOOMANYCONF :)13:11
=== davmor2-lunch is now known as davmor2
pittivuntz: do you have your modified 'gettext for .desktop" patches somewhere?14:24
seb128pitti: do you have an idea on how to fix the icon names being translated issue?14:35
seb128pitti: that was discussed yesterday on the channel not sure if you read about it14:35
pittiseb128: I thought that would basically be fixed by flipping around the priority?14:36
pittii. e. using .desktop translations if present, fall back to gettext, and have our build scripts remove translations?14:36
seb128pitti: I'm not sure since we don't have Icon[locale]= in the .desktop usually14:36
pittiwell, if we never had translations for those in the first place, then this is out of focus for all those patches :)14:37
pittiseb128: I just read bug 95883 again14:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 95883 in nautilus ".desktop files on desktop do not use translations" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/9588314:37
* pitti is currently cleaning his assigned bug list14:37
seb128pitti: no, the issue is that one14:38
seb128- get a desktop file using icon=gnome14:38
seb128- get the same software having a _("gnome") string14:38
seb128- get your translators to translate gnome to GNOME14:38
seb128without the gettext change it uses the icon=gnome14:38
seb128the gettext change will make it use gettext("gnome"), get GNOME and try use this one14:39
pittiugh, for icon= as well?14:41
pittithat's indeed a bug, yes14:41
pittiwhich LP# is that?14:41
tseliotseb128: I'm working on the Gnome RandR Applet to add a checkbox which will allow setting the DontZap option in the xorg.conf. Shall I use policykit to get root privileges or is gksudo enough (for calling the dontzap program)?14:41
seb128pitti: not sure about the bug number right now, dholbach was wondering why his xsane icon was not displayed yesterday and we had a similar issue on an application and german translations before intrepid but I didn't found the bug number using a quick search yesterday14:42
mvoI think policykit is the better  option, maybe make it part of the ubuntu-sysstem-service thng if you don't want to build your own backend ?14:42
tseliotseb128: I've already implemented this for kubuntu: http://albertomilone.com/wordpress/?p=31214:43
seb128tseliot: using policykit would be better14:43
mvotseliot: --^14:43
seb128ok, does somebody knows how to fix my screen resolution after using xrandr?14:43
mvo(or use ubuntu-system-service as a template for your own version, both should be fine. if it goes upstream the later is probably better)14:43
tseliotmvo: ubuntu-sysstem-service?14:43
tseliotseb128: what happened?14:44
seb128I switch to 1360x768 and back to 1440x900 and now I get a 1360x768 usuable screen and randomly drawed margin around14:44
mvotseliot: yes, its the backend that the global keyboard and proxy settings use14:44
tseliotmvo: where can I find the code?14:44
mvotseliot: should be a good template for what you need14:44
vuntzpitti: let me send the patches to you. Right now, I think you need to create an account on the build service to get access to the patches :/14:45
seb128the mouse pointer will go in those margins but compiz consider the usuable part being 1360x76814:45
pittivuntz: ok, thanks (martin.pitt@ubuntu.com)14:45
seb128vuntz: do you have this icon issue too?14:45
seb128vuntz: or did you fix it?14:45
mvotseliot: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/system-service/ubuntu14:45
vuntzseb128: which icon issue?14:46
seb128vuntz: what I wrote to pitti one screen up there14:46
tseliotseb128: that bug was reported in the gnome bugzilla, it doesn't affect compiz only14:46
tseliotmvo: thanks14:46
mvoseb128: I have something for you: lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status14:48
mvoseb128: make a backup first ;)14:49
mvoseb128: it will make a backup for you as well, but ...14:49
tseliotseb128: that might depend on gdk14:50
mvoseb128: if that works nicely I may fold it into the system-cleaner14:50
seb128mvo: ok, I will need to restart my box first I think, I don't manage to get back an usable screen after using xrandr and restarting the session makes compiz unusably slow14:51
mvoseb128: hm, wait a sec14:52
mvoseb128: need to fix a bug first14:52
seb128mvo: ok, I'll restart anyway14:53
asacpochu: do you know whether liferea not honouring NM offline state is intentional?14:55
asacor a regression from adding the "manual" online/offline toggle?14:56
vuntzpitti: hope I didn't forget any patch, tell me it's the case14:56
vuntzseb128: no problem with the icon stuff. We explicitly do the magic for only a few keys14:56
seb128vuntz: ok, good14:57
seb128pitti: bug #197763 was the icon issue, somebody closed the bug as fixed because it works in intrepid but that's probably because he didn't understand the issue14:57
seb128the best way is probably to not look for gettext translations for the icon key14:58
seb128seems that vuntz's patch does that14:58
seb128vuntz: btw #gnome-hackers, the crash is indeed a gtk one14:58
pittiseb128: right, I'd only do it for Name=, GenericName=, and Description=14:58
seb128but right agreed15:01
vuntzpitti: that's what our patches do15:02
pochuasac: that would be a bug. I'll check it15:03
pittivuntz: got them, thanks; I'd like to use them in ubuntu as well, so that we use the same ones, and then forward them upstream; ok with you?15:12
vuntzpitti: sure, feel free to use that. You'll want to s/SUSE/Ubuntu/ back and to remove the default to desktop_translations15:17
vuntzpitti: and also make sure to test they work for you :-)15:17
mvoseb128: I will also upload a patched dpkg to my ppa, that hopefully makes a speed difference as well15:17
pittiright (and for upstream use s/SUSE/GNOME/)15:17
pittivuntz: what? *testing*?15:17
vuntzpitti: I heard seb128 likes to test new packages15:17
pittiwe have buildds and users for that !!!!11!!15:17
asacpochu: already filed 32147315:18
* pitti hugs vuntz15:18
mvoasac: re update-manager - did you got the chance to check for the 3g stuff (I asked aobut that yesterday?)15:18
pochuasac: yeah, saw it. thanks15:18
seb128mvo: ok, what should I get, build, install or try?15:18
mvoseb128: just bzr get lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status and run the script as root inside it15:19
mvothat will blow-up^Wcompact your status and available files15:19
mvothere is also a dpkg patch that avoids reading the available file that I'm currently building in my ppa, that should bring further speed improvements15:20
seb128mvo: bug #321901, are those issues dpkg bugs?15:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 321901 in evolution-data-server "package evolution-data-server 2.24.2-0ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: failed in buffer_write(fd) (10, ret=-1): backend dpkg-deb during `./usr/lib/evolution-data-server-1.2/extensions/libecalbackendhttp.so'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32190115:40
seb128mvo: btw what files should I backup before running your compact-dpkg-status15:41
seb128and why do I need to unlock my ssh key to bzr get lp:~mvo/+junk/compact-dpkg-status?15:41
mvoseb128: the bug might be a cd issue or filesstem corruption, let me look15:44
seb128mvo: we often get buffer_write(fd) errors15:45
seb128I've 15 of those mails in my current bugmails box15:45
mvoIIRC the error is misleading (i.e. can be caused by many things), but I can have a look to be certain15:45
mvoseb128: please /var/lib/dpkg/status and available15:45
mvoseb128: it will make a backup for you too15:46
seb128mvo: right, that bug is a no space on the disk one apparently15:46
seb128looking through the mails most of those a no space issues15:47
seb128mvo: do you know why I need to use my ssh passphrase to get that code? shouldn't a checkout be anonymous or does that give me right to commit too?15:59
mvoseb128: it should be anoymous, maybe bzr get lp:~ is now clever and checks with lp if the branch is writable or not16:01
seb128mvo: well, I don't have write access to your code namespace16:02
seb128mvo: you cleaning seems to speed up the reading the database time quite a lot16:14
seb128"Removed 509 obsolete entries16:14
seb128There are 0 packages that could be purged"16:14
mvoseb128: \o/16:15
seb128not sure if 509 is a lot for that database16:15
mvoseb128: I'm writing a system-cleaner plugin now and will make it part of update-manager16:15
mvoseb128: check how much you have installed, I guess around ~2000-300016:16
seb128mvo: good16:16
seb128mvo: how?16:16
mvoso that does make a difference16:16
mvosynaptic shows it in the status bar16:16
seb128$ dpkg -l | grep ^ii | wc -l16:16
mvoheh :)16:16
seb128you mean?16:16
mvothat works well of course16:16
mvoseb128: yep16:16
mvoseb128: so 500 less to read nwo .)16:17
mvohey bryce16:17
mvoseb128: https://edge.launchpad.net/~mvo/+archive/ppa?field.name_filter=dpkg&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=any <-there is a jaunty dpkg there that might be interessting as well16:17
mvohopefully bring some further speedups16:17
seb128mvo: you rock ;-)16:18
* mvo beams16:19
rickspencer31hi all16:25
rickspencer31Desktop Team meeting in 5 minutes16:25
Tm_Ton -meeting ?16:25
pittiargh, a number-of-rick-spencer explosion!16:25
pittiTm_T: no, here16:26
Tm_Tah, good16:26
pochuasac: can you start liferea in Jaunty at all? It segfaults here in my VM16:26
asacpochu: i could ... but i fixed a bug to get it build at all16:28
ubottuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: January 27 2009, 16:30:06 - No meetings scheduled16:30
* Tm_T hides16:30
asacmeeting time folks ;)16:30
rickspencer31Here's the link to the agenda16:30
asacpochu: uploaded ubuntu2 with that fix now16:30
asacpochu: dont think it helps your crashes16:30
pochuasac: thanks16:30
pochuasac: it's a SIGABRT16:31
pochuon startup16:31
pochuseems to come from libnspr4.so16:31
rickspencer31looks like everyone is here, except Till16:31
rickspencer31shall we begin?16:31
pochuasac: let's continue later, meeting for you now ;)16:31
asacrickspencer31: how do you know everyone is here ;)16:31
rickspencer31well, they are signed into the channel at least16:32
asacseb128: pitti: bryce: calc: Riddell: ping16:32
* pitti pung Till16:32
asacrickspencer31: yeah. better summon to get their attention ;)16:32
bryceasac, I'm here16:32
pittiasac: [17:25]     pitti| argh, a number-of-rick-spencer explosion!16:32
seb128asac: I'm there16:32
pittiOEM meeting finished right on time \o/16:32
pochuasac: wait! I have xul 1.9.1 installed for some reason. I guess that's the cause16:32
asacpitti: :)16:33
asacpochu: oh ... thats a bug then16:33
asacpochu: -> lets continue in #ubuntu-mozillateam :)16:33
calci'm here16:33
* calc notes he is always in this channel except when his pc or broadband is dead ;-)16:33
rickspencer31ok, let's start16:34
rickspencer31first is outstanding business from the last meeting16:34
rickspencer31spec approval: I see that Arne has just set his last spec to "pending approval"16:34
pittiah, too close for the meeting, didn't see it yet16:35
pittiwill review ASAP16:35
rickspencer31how about jaunty-desktop-network-changing?16:35
rickspencer31asac: was this the one that you were going to add test cases to, etc...?16:36
asacnot sure ... there certainly will be no implementer for that. i filed bugs for the issues i found16:36
pittiasac: ^ that's mostly handled as a set of bugs now, is it?16:37
asacand i am also suggesting fixes where possible16:37
rickspencer31ok, is there a status that we can set it to so it does not appear that action is required?16:37
pittiI'm happy with adding the bug #s to the whiteboard, skip the wiki page, and approve it like that16:37
pittiso that we have a blueprint for tracking goal and assignment, but not waste duplicating the bug descriptions16:38
asacpitti: the wiki page can still be linked. it doesnt hardm16:38
pittis/waste/& time/16:38
asacmaybe from whiteboard16:38
pittias you wish, just a proposal to keep things easy16:38
rickspencer31okay, sounds good16:38
rickspencer31moving on16:38
calcat&t just arrived, they have perfect timing :\16:38
Tm_Tcalc: say hi from me16:39
rickspencer31calc: n/p16:39
rickspencer31Riddell: is there something blocking this last spec from getting approved?16:39
Riddellwe still havn't made a final decision on IRC client16:40
pittiit's still 'drafting'16:40
Riddellwhich was martin's sticking point for approval16:40
Riddellwe have a meeting tonight for it16:40
Riddellalthough we're also blocked on MIR anyway16:40
rickspencer31what can we do to unblock the spec?16:41
pittiwait for the meeting/decision to happen? :-)16:41
rickspencer31what about the Main Inclusion Report?16:42
Tm_TRiddell: we have three irc client possibilities?16:42
RiddellMIR is blocked on security review.  security reviews usually take months or don't happen at all in my experience16:42
rickspencer31I'll take an action item to see if I can move that along16:43
rickspencer31ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up on status of security review for MIR16:43
rickspencer31there's also this mysterious blueprint ldap-defaultdit-usergrp-mgmt16:43
rickspencer31is that supposed to be on the server team?16:44
pittithat's not our's16:44
pittiyou are looking at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty ?16:44
pittithose are for all teams16:44
rickspencer31moving on then16:45
rickspencer31bryce: you tagged your pet bugs, right?16:45
* pitti strokes his pet bugs and enjoys hearing them purr16:46
* rickspencer31 ^^16:46
brycerickspencer31: yup16:46
rickspencer31in terms of conference attendance, please refer to the wiki for the resolution16:46
rickspencer31so essentially Jane just bounced it back to me to come up with a name, etc...16:47
rickspencer31we have an agenda item to briefly discuss in a few minutes16:47
seb128so much discussions about a label16:47
rickspencer31moving on16:48
rickspencer31new GDM was packaged (yeah seb128)16:48
rickspencer31also sprint topics consolidated and put on the wiki16:49
rickspencer31those were all the actions from last week16:49
rickspencer31any questions?16:49
Riddellwhat wiki page?16:49
Riddellfor conference attendance?16:49
pittiI think we should have enough items for the sprint to keep us busy16:49
rickspencer31Riddell: I'll /msg you in a few. It's on an internal wiki16:50
rickspencer31in terms of the sprint, as you can see, there are a few Dx topics, so we'll be working with them quite a bit16:50
rickspencer31also, I wanted to remind pitti and seb128 about the efficient bug handling workshop16:51
rickspencer31any questions/comments/concerns about the sprint?16:51
pittithat sounds like prep needed16:51
pittiwhat should the workshop be about?16:51
rickspencer31what I am hoping for is a hands on demonstration for how to manage a large number of bugs, both LP and email16:52
brycerickspencer31: you got my comments on sprint topics already?16:52
rickspencer31bryce: not sure, did you email them?16:52
brycerickspencer31: yep16:52
rickspencer31bryce: should I follow up in email?16:53
pittirickspencer31: I'll think about it16:53
rickspencer31pitti: thanks16:54
rickspencer31so moving on ...16:54
rickspencer31I think this is very important to do right16:54
rickspencer31managing your software is a critical part of the user experience, and can be delightful or a pain in a**16:55
asacimo we have to create redundancy so users find it16:55
rickspencer31I propose that we approach the whole space holistically in Jaunty +116:55
asacentry in applications + entry in administration ... and maybe even somewhere else16:55
rickspencer31and don't change the label, etc... in Jaunty16:55
pittiwhat does 'holistic' mean here?16:56
brycerickspencer31: I think a number of improvements could be done to how the menu works; just changing the name sort of feels bikeshed-painting-ish16:56
rickspencer31holistic = the whole system, not just each sub-component16:56
brycepitti: means take a larger view of the whole and consider deeper or more fundamental improvements16:57
Tm_Trickspencer31: also it just have to work, and never remove something without user knowing it etc, but this is so obvious16:57
brycepitti: like instead of taking diet pills, to instead exercise and eat more vegetables :-)16:57
seb128asac: we already have too many menu items in the system menus don't add extra ones there16:57
pittibryce: right, but that in the context of finding a label name seemed weird to me :)16:57
rickspencer31For example, if we decide it should be called a "Library" make the system behave like a library, including the apps, etc..., not just change the name to library16:57
asacseb128: well. i think users dont expect it in applications16:58
* tedg really is hoping for a comeback of the Dewey decimal system16:58
asachaving it there is good16:58
asacbut we need it somewhere else16:58
rickspencer31also, I think users can get annoyed by changing menus and such when nothing important changes16:58
rickspencer31so agreed that we keep the label in Jaunty and discuss the whole system at UDS for Jaunty +1?16:59
brycerickspencer31: has there been usability analysis so far on this?16:59
rickspencer31I'm open to feedback if anyone feels this is the wrong approach16:59
asacyes. giving us some ramp up time is sensible16:59
asac(so ack on this)17:00
pittirickspencer31: I wouldn't mind naming it "Add/Remove applications..." to make clear that it's not a menu editor17:00
pittiah, or just "Install/Remove" (shorter)17:00
rickspencer31pitti: do you think that's the right thing to do?17:00
seb128pitti: Add/Remove applications...", how do you translate it in german?17:00
asaci think we have to really discuss what we want and why this came now up17:01
pittiseb128: "Anwendungen hinzufuegen/entfernen"17:01
asacaparently there were complains, so we should listen and address them17:01
seb128pitti: so you would have an application menu scaling to that label, looks really weird, we did try17:01
bryceasac: definitely agreed17:01
rickspencer31asac: look back at the original mail thread that we started, the design rationale is in there17:01
pittirickspencer31: if people are confused by the label, then we shold make the label clearer; if people don't look in the app menu to change apps, we need to move it, so the discussion so far seemed to match that17:01
pittiseb128: thus Install/Remove, if that's clearer (it is shorter)17:02
asacrickspencer31: to which mailing list did that go to?17:02
rickspencer31pitti: but *are* people confused by the label. That wasn't really why the change was suggested. It was suggested to make the feature seem sexier17:02
calci'm temporarily back until at&t decides to kill my line again17:02
brycesexier ...17:02
seb128pitti: right17:02
pittirickspencer31: personally I didn't hear any complaints17:02
Tm_Tbryce: one moment, I put my pants on17:02
rickspencer31bryce: yeah, like Apple has the Apple store, which users think is so cool17:02
seb128the issue is that we have no good way to get feedback on such things, users who are technical enough to send bugs figure where to find the softwares they need and what they do17:03
rickspencer31okay, it is clear to me that we could change the name of the label, but it is not clear to me that it would accomplish anything worthwhile17:03
tedgApple has a store, Google has a marketplace, we should have a Bazaar :)17:03
brycerickspencer31: ahh, so maybe the first step is to do an analysis of that, and identify what aspects users find to be cool?17:03
rickspencer31tedg: aweseom17:03
Tm_Ttedg: webshop interface!17:03
rickspencer31bryce: right17:03
brycerickspencer31: and this gets back to my earlier point that simply changing the name maybe not enough to achieve that, it just puts new lipstick on the pig17:04
rickspencer31any more thoughts? If not, I'll start a blueprint and we can discuss there17:04
asacstore/marketplace/bazaar -> all non-free ;)17:04
asac"magic box" ;)17:04
rickspencer31bryce: are you calling Sara Palin a pig?17:04
brycerickspencer31: oink17:04
rickspencer31ok ... moving on17:05
rickspencer31Pet bug status17:05
calcoh btw OOo 3.0.1 is released today :)17:05
rickspencer31who has fixed pet bugs?17:05
bryceI worked on them a bit yesterday17:05
* calc will once he gets 3.0.1 uploaded maybe today/tomorrow17:05
* asac didnt find time to go to his petting zoo yet17:05
brycemost of mine I picked were just low hanging stuff so not really that difficult, just had been low on the priority list17:06
rickspencer31please let me know what I can do to help everyone find time to work on this?17:06
rickspencer31should we consider maybe blacking out a day at the sprint just for this?17:06
brycebut I did manage to thoroughly clean up xkeyboard-config in the process :-)17:06
rickspencer31other ideas?17:06
asacpet-bugs are side tasks for me17:06
asacthey get done when i need distraction17:07
pittiI fixed my first pet bug last week, but it was a really big one17:07
pittiI want to interleave bug triage, simple bug fixing, and pet bug fixing, to divide attention equally17:07
rickspencer31This should be a benefit for everyone, in that we are limiting feature work so that you can get to items that you've been wanting to get to. So please let me know what I can do to help you make time for the pet bugs.17:08
pittiif those are considered a priority, we can certainly make them a priority :)17:08
rickspencer31this doesn't displace regressions and other high priority incoming issues, so it's not a priority in that sense. However, it is a chance to get to some work that may be important to individuals.17:10
rickspencer31Language selector17:11
=== bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth
rickspencer31essentially, mvo would like to move this responsibility to our team, but has some work to do on it for Jaunty.17:11
rickspencer31is anyone willing to look into taking over for mvo in Jaunty? and also, someone will have to pick it up after Jaunty I suppose.17:12
Riddelldoesn't ArneGoetje do that?17:12
asaclanguage selector or update manager? the former is done by arne i think17:13
rickspencer31ArneGoetje works on the UI, but there are some backend pieces that he needs help on17:13
ArneGoetjeI do some stuff on that, like the GUI rework, but deeper system level is too high for me17:13
* ArneGoetje is not a coder...17:13
asacdeeper system level sounds like foundation ;)17:13
ArneGoetjeasac: ploicy kit, package kit, dbus... basically17:13
pittiI guess in the end we have to wait until we get more staff, to have some breathing room again17:14
asacack ... ENOTIMEHEREATALL17:14
pittiI'm happy to help with technical questions about dbus/PK, etc.17:14
pittibut I'm afraid ATM we simply lack the manpower to do it17:14
pittiwell, there might be some community interest17:14
asacArneGoetje: can you focus on stuff that doesnt need major fixes in the backend?17:14
asac(for now)17:14
rickspencer31ACTION: rickspencer3 to work with mvo/robbiew to get the work for Language selector done for Jaunty17:15
pittiArneGoetje: do you happen to know some community members which can code, and are interested in it?17:15
ArneGoetjeasac: doing that already17:15
asacah ok17:15
ArneGoetjepitti: no, not yet17:15
rickspencer31how would we solicit community involvement on this?17:15
asacblogging about it ... how sexy it is17:16
asacand about the areas that deserve some love17:16
rickspencer31can someone here own reaching out to the community on that?17:16
asacyes, supplemented with posting to devel17:16
pittiSubject: You too can be a star!17:16
rickspencer31working with mvo of course17:16
asacwe trade a 2 month featured slot on hall of fame for that ;)17:17
rickspencer31ACTION: rickspencer3 to coordinate working with mvo/robbiew to see if we can get community involvement on language selector17:17
pittiArneGoetje: you certainly know best what kind of changes we need in it?17:17
ArneGoetjepitti: you mean for jaunty+1?17:18
pittiArneGoetje: for both specs (UI rework (jaunty) and new features (jaunty+1))17:18
ArneGoetjepitti: I know the ideas, but not necessarily the programming details17:18
pittiArneGoetje: right, I mean what needs to be done, not 'how'17:19
ArneGoetjepitti: yes17:19
rickspencer31I'll work with ArneGoetje on that as well (though he is on holiday this week)17:20
rickspencer31Release Status: everyone sent me details of their spec status. I will compile and share.17:20
rickspencer31any other comments on release status?17:20
rickspencer31Feature freeze in 2/1917:21
rickspencer31everyone sent activity reports, so thanks for that17:21
rickspencer31Any other business?17:21
pittiwe won't have an IRC meeting next week, I take it17:22
rickspencer31good point17:22
seb128not sure if the gtk issue I raised is to discuss in a meeting or the lists rather17:22
rickspencer31no meeting next week (as the canonical team will be together on a sprint)17:22
asacseb128: gtk issue?17:23
RiddellMIR processing would be nice (Quassel has the security review needed but other ones don't)17:23
pitti^ understood17:23
asaci will do a few mirs tomorrow again17:23
seb128asac: basically the directfb backend is an issue, nobody is working on it, it's not in a buildable nor usuable state and takes me hours to workaround the issue every time17:23
rickspencer31seb128: could you explain the issue briefly, and the dependency on it17:23
asacnot sure if i have the list you gave me yesterday though.17:23
asacbut probably easy to spot17:24
asacseb128: do we need it?17:24
pittiColin just responded that the server team asked for a graphical installer in Jaunty17:24
seb128I don't know how to test it, I've enough to do to not spend days on directfb and I've no interest working it17:24
pittibut frankly it's the first time I hear about it17:24
seb128asac: it's using by d-i and we want an ubuntu d-i apparently17:24
pittiso far nothing in the entire archive is using it17:24
pittiit's not used by d-i just yet17:24
seb128but we basically need to take over upstream to maintain it17:25
seb128I workarounded to get it built but they did architectural changes in recent cycles which need non trivial directfb code updates17:25
pittiwe should discuss that with the server team, since that will be a significant cost17:25
pittiand personally I'm not at all convinced that it's a good idea to maintain a third installer...17:25
rickspencer31pitti: why wouldn't they just use ubiquity?17:26
pittiI don't know17:26
tedgNo X11, right?17:26
asacprobably because they want to have a graphical installer without X17:26
* pitti sobs17:27
rickspencer31pitti: could you follow up with Colin? Perhaps let him know the costs involved and get some more details about their requirements?17:27
seb128I'm wondering if the static gtk built it useful too but that's not an issue, it just takes build time and disk space17:28
seb128(not really a meeting item for this one)17:28
pittirickspencer31: will do17:28
rickspencer31ACTION: pitti to discuss costs and requirements of graphical non-X based installers with cjwatson17:29
rickspencer31was there something to discuss regarding Riddell's MIR question?17:29
rickspencer31ptti: is that an action item for you?17:29
pittifor ~ubuntu-mir, which comprises me, yes17:30
rickspencer31ACTION: pitti to respond to MIR for Riddel/Kubuntu17:30
asacalso i take a few i gues17:30
asacpitti: feel free to shove them to me if you want to split work on that17:31
rickspencer31ACTION: pitti/asac to respond to MIR for Riddel/Kubuntu17:31
rickspencer31I'm looking forward to next week17:31
pittiasac: I'd appreciate, yes17:31
rickspencer31I guess I better start waking up earlier to move closer to Berlin time :P17:32
asaccu all in berlin!17:32
rickspencer31I'll update the wiki later today. Thanks everyone17:32
Tm_Trickspencer31: thank you (:17:32
rickspencer31ArneGoetje: have a great time with your family. See you next Monday17:33
ArneGoetjewill do. CU17:33
brycerickspencer31: btw on the non-X based installer issue, that feels like something that could get impacted by the KMS stuff.17:33
rickspencer31bryce: hmmm17:34
pittithanks everyone, and safe travels17:34
rickspencer31it sounds like maybe more of a hairball than it first appeared17:34
brycerickspencer31: so esp. if part of the issue is lack of upstream on directfb, it may be a type of thing that would be worth waiting a bit and see how things fall into place17:34
pittirickspencer31: directfb mail sent17:35
rickspencer31so is the issue that servers won't have the capability of using X?17:35
pittirickspencer31: I rather suspect they want to avoid the overhead of installing X17:35
bryceI don't know the details, but would guess so17:35
rickspencer31so this installer isn't just to set up the machine the first time, it's a front end to apt?17:36
pittirickspencer31: no, it's just initial installation17:36
* pitti -> quick break17:36
rickspencer31ubiquity has to install x to run?17:36
brycerickspencer31: no it doesn't, which is why I feel like I'm missing some additional background on the issue :-)17:39
rickspencer31bryce: tx17:40
tedgbryce: It doesn't have to install X, but X has to be on the CD, right?17:41
tedgI imagine this is a "we hate anything that mentions X" more than a serious objection.17:42
brycethat's fine, I hate X too ;-)17:43
brycewow, ubiquity has a lot of dependencies17:45
tjaaltonthe directfb installer is what debian uses18:24
tjaaltonAIUI it's the default frontend18:24
seb128tjaalton: right we know that, they didn't update gtk recently due to the lenny freeze though and will have the same issues18:27
tjaaltonseb128: hum ok18:27
seb128I'm not sure directfb is where we should spend efforts18:27
tjaaltonwhat exactly needs to be done?18:28
pochuwhat uses directfb, the graphical installer in d-i?18:30
pochubecause I thought the normal one was ncurses based :)18:30
seb128tjaalton: now? the code needs to be updated for the offscreen rendering changes, they added some virtual functions and the backends need to be updated to use that, they also added new functions which are not implemented in the directfb backend18:30
seb128tjaalton: the code also doesn't build using the current directfb version18:31
seb128tjaalton: and that's only a start since they keep doing changes which need backends updates and nobody is working on the directfb changes18:31
seb128pochu: right18:31
seb128tjaalton: ie somebody needs to update the directfb to keep up with the gtk architecture changes18:32
tjaaltonseb128: ok.. highly nontrivial then ;)18:32
seb128I did ugly workaround for now18:32
seb128ie implemented empty function for the one which need to be added18:33
tjaaltonI tried it some time ago just for the kicks, but noticed that it didn't work. I'd use it if it were there, but don't know if I could fix it myself..18:33
tjaaltonsounds like it's beyond my skills18:34
=== calc_ is now known as calc
calci'm finally back :\18:37
* rickspencer31 offers calc a drink18:37
calcat&t basically decided my line is broken and they need to send a crew out to fix it, not just one guy18:37
calcthey even checked around nearby to see if any lines were usable and apparently none were18:38
calcso i have working dsl that just happens to drop randomly (due to SNR issues) until they fix my line properly18:38
calcmy SNR goes from 2.0 - 11.0 with normal good being above 10.0 at all times18:39
calcthey just called and think they fixed it, at the moment i'm not getting packet loss but the SNR is still below normal18:47
* calc thinks he will switch to cable modem when he gets back from germany18:48
calcrickspencer31: was there anything you needed to ask me about during the meeting?18:58
walters_tedg: around?19:27
dobeyrickspencer31: ping? should i bug you to get someone unsubscribed from a bug in lp?19:37
dobeyrickspencer31: it's a bug against a desktop package in ubuntu19:38
seb128you can unsubscribe yourself directly19:39
dobeyhow? (i'm not even sure what the lp username is)19:39
seb128if you get the emails or are subscribed you have a lp account19:39
dobeyi don't want to unsubscribe myself19:39
seb128if that's a team get a member of the team to do it19:40
dobeyi want to unsubscribe the twit with the autoresponder that keeps sending replies with useless comments in spanish :)19:40
dobeyseb128: see all the useless replies on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icon-naming-utils/+bug/319991 from an autoresponder e-mail :(19:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 319991 in icon-naming-utils "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New]19:40
seb128oh you can't do that, try asking on #launchpad then or open an question or their answer tracker asking them to do the change19:41
dobeyhrmm, ok19:41
seb128they use the answer tracker as a request tracker19:41
seb128or you can get a reply on IRC directly19:41
dobeyhrmm, i wonder where kwwii is19:57
dobeyhe can probably solve this19:57
dobeythough it would also be nice if i could get the comments deleted19:58
Amaranthdobey: Is that thing sending an autoreply when it gets an email about it's own autoreply?20:22
dobeyAmaranth: yes, of course, what else would it do?20:22
AmaranthSend out an email only once to the same email20:22
AmaranthI never understood the point of an autoreply system sending out more than one to each person20:23
tedgwalters_: I am now.20:49
dobeyAmaranth: me either. but you know, most software is stupid in some way :(20:49
walters_tedg: sweet.  so i'm looking at the user-switch-control-IM applet in the context of gnome shell (actually would be nice if you could /j #gnome-shell on gimpnet), but one question I had with regards to your mockup is: how do i get to my contacts/20:50
walters_tedg: e.g. is there just another green circle on the panel for empathy's current UI?20:51
tedgwalters_: Let me flip over there, and we'll continue there.20:51
chrisccoulsonbryce - do you ever browse the ubuntuforums?21:01
brycechrisccoulson: no, I used to but just staying atop the bug tracker keeps me busy enough21:03
chrisccoulsonyeah, i can imagine. the only reason i asked is because there appears to be a big ding-dong about switching on DontZap by default in Jaunty21:04
brycechrisccoulson: to be precise, it was X.org upstream that switched21:06
brycewe just opted not to override upstream in this case21:06
chrisccoulsonah, ok. people seem to be against it quite a bit21:06
brycealso please note that it was due to lobbying by community people that this was done to begin with21:06
chrisccoulsonmaybe i should point that out in the forums21:07
chrisccoulsonpeople seem to be too lazy to edit their xorg.conf and add a single line21:07
brycechrisccoulson: in fact we'll be including a simple GUI tool before -beta for toggling it21:08
brycefor both KDE and GNOME21:08
AmaranthTheir argument is they'll only know they need to turn it on after X freezes21:08
chrisccoulsonyeah, but X shouldn't freeze21:09
chrisccoulsonand there's another way to kill it21:09
brycectrl-alt-backspace does not always get you out of all freezes21:09
AmaranthI tried to explain this in that thread21:09
seb128is there an equivalent way to do the same thing now?21:09
chrisccoulsonalt+sysrq+k to kill all processes connected to the current VT21:09
brycethe sysreq key is better21:09
AmaranthOf course my keyboard doesn't have a sysrq key...21:09
chrisccoulsonprint screen?21:09
bryceand ctrl-alt-backspace is probably better for "normal" session exiting21:10
dobeyAmaranth: is it a mac?21:10
AmaranthAnd it wouldn't help anyway as it would cause a VT switch which means I'm screwed since I have intel :(21:10
Amaranthdobey: It is21:10
chrisccoulsoni would argue that ctrl+alt+backspace probably isn't good for "normal" session exiting ;)21:10
dobeyi don't remember which key works for sysrq on those :(21:10
Amaranthctrl+alt+backspace should open gnome-system-monitor now ;)21:11
chrisccoulsonalthough, i don't know how Xorg quits when you press it. Does everything running on that console literally just die?21:11
brycefor the argument of not knowing to turn it on until after X freezes, an end user could make an equivalent argument that they currently only know to turn it *off* after losing work due to fat-fingering ctrl-alt-backspace or something21:11
Amaranthdobey: It's F15 but I don't have F15 either21:11
chrisccoulsoni agree bryce. and some people wouldn't even know the combination existed if X froze, whether it was enabled or not21:11
brycechrisccoulson: yes the Zap key kills everything21:11
chrisccoulsonwhich part of the community did the lobbying come from?21:12
Amaranthbryce: Only if X itself isn't stuck though, that's why sysrq is better, right?21:13
AmaranthAnd I thought it didn't kill everything, everything just died because X went away21:13
bryceAmaranth: right21:13
AmaranthI know some processes tend to stick around for a bit after you zap X21:14
bryceAmaranth: correct, it doesn't take action against processes, it just kills the parent process, and the child processes just die21:14
bryce+on their own21:14
brycechrisccoulson: it'd be quite appreciated if you could share these data with the forums community21:16
chrisccoulsonyeah, i don't mind doing that21:16
brycechrisccoulson: for ubuntu we had a blueprint open for over a year for this change but could not achieve any sort of consensus - every time it seemed there was one favoring one patch or another, or not changing, suddenly a contingent sprang up with the opposing view21:17
brycechrisccoulson: so was sort of a relief to see upstream make the decision for us ;-)21:17
chrisccoulsonyeah, that's a bit easier. so this will be the same across most distro's soon, unless they choose to alter it?21:18
brycealso please let them know that I probably hate this change more than anyone, since I'm constantly testing X, finding bugs, and needing to get out of frozen X's.  ;-)21:20
chrisccoulsonyeah, i'll do that;)21:20
brycebut I figure at the same time, I know enough to know how to switch the option on, or use other means of restarting X21:20
brycewhereas the poor people impacted by accidentally hitting zap aren't going to know wtf happened, and there's a lot of those kinds out there, so it's sort of better for them not to have it on by default21:21
brycechrisccoulson: thanks :-)21:24
chrisccoulsonyou're welcome21:24
AmaranthArguing about DontZap is just like arguing about rm -rf / not working anymore21:30
Amaranthbtw, it's really neat that you can't do that anymore21:30
seb128not really21:31
seb128one is an useful thing sometimes the other is not21:31
dobeythe majority of uses i have for zap in X are because session management is pretty much never implemented correctly21:33
pochuI think it would had been a much more sane default to allow ctrl+alt+backspace it pressed 3 times in a row (like press ctrl+alt and then backspace 3 times)21:33
pochuthat would have worked for everybody IMHO21:33
seb128that or keep it pressed for some seconds21:33
Amaranthseb128: Both are dangerous things users do without necessarily knowing what they do21:34
pochuI understand people may press ctrl+alt+backspace accidentally... but pressing 3 times in a row accidentally? :-)21:35
seb128right but one case is useful to some users where the other is not21:35
AmaranthSo...anyone know if gnome-shell will have an "I want to use compiz" mode?21:37
waltersAmaranth: the old gnome-panel will be maintained for a while, and of course there's a ton of choices like XFCE for people who want to build their own desktop from parts21:39
AmaranthSo that's a no21:40
Amaranthwalters: Will nautilus still have the ability to draw the desktop?21:44
Amaranthwalters: What reason is there to combine metacity and gnome-panel?21:45
AmaranthYou can have gnome-shell call out to the WM to do things, compiz can do those things21:46
AmaranthWe even have a way to do them via dbus21:46
waltersAmaranth: it's a lot easier to do things in process than using dbus between separate processes; anyways we21:49
waltersAmaranth: 're pretty far along in modifying metacity21:49
=== bluesmoke_ is now known as Amaranth
dobeyseb128: ping?22:08
seb128dobey: hi?22:11
dobeyseb128: i was wondering if the latest evo packages have been updated in jaunty, and if they require a system libical22:12
seb128dobey: not yet, a contributor has been working on it and they might be uploaded tomorrow though, they don't require libical yet but the next version due next week will22:13
dobeyseb128: ah ok, i was just wondering if the requiring system libical would break evolution-webcal which just relies on libecal to get libical api22:15
seb128I'm not sure but I don't think they plan to break any api, they just start using the system version rather than the copy they had in the eds source22:15
seb128I will try if evolution-webcal still works when doing the update and let you know22:16
dobeyok, thanks22:16
seb128you're welcome22:16
hggdhseb128, ping22:19
seb128hggdh: when I was writting on the chan some minutes ago no need to ping just ask your questions ;-)22:19
asacmpt: are there any general UI best-practices on how to communicate dialog/form user input errors in a minimal disruptive fashion (like when a dialog would have the OK button disabled)22:20
hggdhsorry, did not even pay attention on the time stamps22:20
hggdhhow can I get my libical reviewed?22:20
hggdhsorry, not libical, but libpst22:21
seb128hggdh: I though we synced the current version on debian?22:21
hggdhseb128, ^^22:21
seb128hggdh: subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors22:21
seb128hggdh: it's on my todolist but not really high priority, I will have a look after getting e-d-s and evo 2.25 in jaunty22:22
seb128but better to have that on the sponsoring list22:22
seb128so other people can look at it too and it's on a public list of things to review22:23
seb128jcastro: hey, there seems there is no component on launchpad for gnome-python-desktop or I'm overlooking things again there?22:24
hggdhseb128, universe-sponsors is subscribed, and I also opened a debian bug for it22:24
seb128hggdh: thanks22:24
jcastroseb128: you're right, I'm on it.22:25
seb128jcastro: thanks22:26
seb128jcastro: could be the same for gnome-python-extras22:26
petskiCould one of you please take a look at LP bug 276603. It's an SRU for main22:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 276603 in rhythmbox "crashed while listening to a mp3 podcast" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27660322:31
seb128petski: the configure changes are not appropriates for a sru otherwise it looks correct22:33
seb128petski: could you update the debdiff to use a correct version, intrepid-proposed as upload target and don't change the control22:33
seb128petski: configure -> control22:33
jcastroseb128: all set on both22:34
seb128jcastro: thanks!22:34
petskilintian complained about the control file, therefor I modified it22:34
jcastroseb128: I need to guinea pig you next week22:35
jcastroseb128: gmb has this thing that will do upstream open tasks by default and I need you to kick the tires.22:35
seb128petski: right, those are only minor warnings though and we restrict the changes to what is required in srus, no cosmetic changes ;-)22:35
seb128jcastro: ok sure22:35
petskiok. I will upload a new debdiff in a couple of minutes22:36
seb128petski: thanks, I will sponsor the upload22:36
petskiseb128: I've updated bug 276603 with the new debdiff22:55
ubottuLaunchpad bug 276603 in rhythmbox "crashed while listening to a mp3 podcast" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27660322:55
seb128petski: thanks22:55

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!