=== Andrijeski is now known as drunky
Elitedatabasehey could some on help me with ubuntu03:06
Ahmuck_JrElitedatabase: #ubuntu channel03:07
Ahmuck_Jrhowever, what is your problem?03:07
ElitedatabaseI see prepare disk its give me 2 thing there03:07
ElitedatabaseGuide use entire disk and manual03:08
Elitedatabasebut I rly have windows xp and I'm trying to us doul boot03:08
Elitedatabasewhat should I do03:09
Ahmuck_Jrgodo question.  there is a dual boot tutorial03:09
Ahmuck_Jrlet me see if i can find it03:09
Ahmuck_Jrby the way, ur native language is english?03:09
ElitedatabaseI try but all they show me is auto dualboot03:10
Elitedatabaseand I dont have the chose03:10
ElitedatabaseI only have two choise03:10
Ahmuck_Jru should have a ubuntu choice as well as a windows choice.  do you?03:11
ElitedatabaseI only have 2 choice03:11
Elitedatabasewith they are use entire disk and manual03:12
Elitedatabaseand I dont finde the manual tutorial03:12
Elitedatabaseand I dont see the manual totorial03:12
Ahmuck_Jrautomatic will re-size your partition and then install ubuntu in the new space.  however you MUST have defraged your windows partition before trying to do this03:13
Ahmuck_Jrit's all there in that link03:13
Ahmuck_Jrr u on windows xp or vista?03:13
Elitedatabaseso to do automatix you have to defraged03:13
Ahmuck_Jrhave you backed up your data?03:13
Ahmuck_Jrto do auto, u need to defrag xp03:14
Elitedatabaseand then that i'll see that choise automatic re-size03:14
Ahmuck_Jr#2 under the ubuntu installation03:15
Elitedatabaseo I understand now03:15
Ahmuck_Jrread through the tutorial first03:15
Ahmuck_Jrbefore you start anything03:15
Elitedatabasethank you ahmuck I'll03:15
Ahmuck_Jryour welcom03:15
ElitedatabaseThank you very much for the info03:15
Elitedatabasesee you latetr03:15
elitedatabasehey Ahmuck are you there03:57
elitedatabasehey any one in here03:57
elitedatabaseany one in here could help me03:59
elitedatabasehey could any one help me with ubuntu04:01
=== drunky is now known as DRNK-E
nubaegreets LaserJock17:20
Ahmuckgood morning17:22
nubaegood evening17:23
LaserJockhi nubae17:23
nubaedid u see my mail I sent to the edubuntu-devel list17:30
nubaeit was held... because I bcced it there I believe17:30
LaserJocknubae: what was it about?17:31
nubaeteh educator talk I had in Graz17:34
LaserJockno, I don't think I got that17:35
nubaeconcerning what would be nice in edu apps17:35
nubaemostly in suar17:35
LaserJockcan you resend directly?17:35
nubaeok, I'll send now17:35
nubaeLaserJock: read it?17:45
LaserJocknubae: I haven't gotten anything yet17:46
nubaehmmm sent it to both lists, users and devel17:46
Ahmucknice nubae17:48
nubaeoh... btw, I was at an olpc-deployment meeting yesterday17:48
nubaeand there is great enthusiasm for building a ubuntu based server to manage the XOs17:48
nubaeI thought it might make sense to work within the edubuntu server seed infrastructure17:49
nubaeand it would automatically pull in more devs17:49
nubaeto edubuntu17:50
LaserJocknubae: yeah perhaps18:01
LaserJocknubae: regarding math quizzes18:31
LaserJocknubae: what if you had students paired up and had one student write the "question" while the other answers18:32
sbalneavLaserJock: Hey hey!  I've been doing more digging into the sabayon thing.  Hopefully I'll have a patch by the weekend.18:35
LaserJocksbalneav: yeah, what kind of things have you been finding?18:36
LaserJockhi RichEd18:37
sbalneavLaserJock: Well, I read through the source, and I think what's happened is that sabayon expects the panels to be named with certain defaults, and I think Ubuntu changes the default.18:40
sbalneavI think the better solution would be to actually READ the list of panel objects, and iterate through them18:40
LaserJocksbalneav: ok, that's along the lines of what I was thinking, I didn't know what specifically was doing it but that makes sense18:40
sbalneavbut I'm goingt to verify that tonight.18:41
LaserJocksbalneav: what time do you expect to be on tonight?18:42
alkisgDoes sabayon do a simple copy/dump of gconf settings, or does it try to parse them with some intelligence?18:43
=== DRNK-E is now known as drunky
LaserJockalkisg: were you the one who wrote a pyqt user manager app?18:44
alkisgerm, the correct term would by "trying to write", and I started with pygtk...18:44
alkisg...but I'm still thinking of switching to pyqt, I'm not sure! :)18:45
LaserJockand was it a thin-client manager or just user management in general?18:45
alkisgAnyone interested in helping out? :)18:45
=== drunky is now known as DRNK-E
alkisgIn general. The plan would be to select a bunch of users and execute scripts on them18:46
LaserJockwell, the other day I talked with the Ubuntu Gnome maintainer about the User and Groups tool18:46
LaserJockalkisg: what about adding/remove users and groups?18:46
alkisgIt would nicely integrate to the tool, but I don't know if I'll have the time to implement it properly for nis/ldap etc18:46
LaserJockright, well, basically the Gnome maintainer said that Users and Groups is essentially dead/depricated18:47
LaserJockin the sense that Debian/Ubuntu are the only major distros using it18:47
alkisgWhat do other gnome distros use?18:48
LaserJockFedora, openSUSE, etc. write their own system management tools18:48
LaserJockand so there's very little effort going into Gnome's tools18:48
alkisg...and can't any of them be upgraded to become cross-distro?18:48
LaserJockperhaps Fedora's new one but I can't find it so I don't know18:48
alkisg...so basically, a new tool would be the best here.18:49
LaserJockso, I'm wondering if we should start working on our own18:49
LaserJockand if it works we can contribute it upstream18:49
alkisgWell, I'm totally interested. I don't know python nor gtk (!!!) but I have a lot of programming experience, I think I'll be able to produce something better than what users-admin is now.18:50
alkisgAre you in for programming / organization / something?18:50
LaserJockI think we should discuss design and specifications on edubuntu-devel18:52
LaserJockto get some more input on what's needed18:52
alkisgIt could also replace sabayon for simple tasks, like putting some things into the panels, setting a wallpaper, clearing firefox cache etc.18:52
alkisgLaserJock: I have a pretty clear idea on what it's needed, at least for the simple administration tasks that teachers need. I've talked to several teachers about it.18:53
LaserJockfor me conceptionally I would like to separate user management from setting managment18:53
alkisgBut I have absolutely no idea about "real admins".18:53
alkisgBut most admins would need to apply settings for certain users, not all users18:55
alkisgSo a user-list would be needed to select the users (or groups) on which the settings would be applied18:55
LaserJocka settings management tool obviously needs to know who to apply the settings to18:57
LaserJockbut that's fairly trivial18:57
alkisgSimple examples: Set a specific firefox start page for all the teachers. Clear the thumbnail cache for all students. Change the group for all students that passed the class.18:57
LaserJockwhat we're in need of is a good to to manage the actual users and groups18:57
alkisgI see. I was looking at kuser the other day, it supports ldap, nis and stuff. I've never even used ldap, I don't think I'm ready to implement something that difficult. Something a little better than users-admin, OK, but not as good as kuser.18:59
LaserJockone step at a time :-)18:59
LaserJockI have no idea how to do it at this moment either18:59
LaserJockbut I know how to read users/groups from python, that's a good first step19:00
LaserJockwe then need to figure out how to create/modify19:00
LaserJockone suggestion was to simply wrap useradd, etc.19:00
alkisgI already have a listbox filled with the groups/users, but I don't think I did it with the proper way19:00
alkisgI directly parsed the files, but I think there are functions for this.19:01
Lnsalkisg: getent comes to mind19:01
alkisgAnd I didn't know if I should use /etc/login.defs or adduser.conf or system-gnome-tools settings to decide which are system users and which simple users19:01
alkisgAt least in C there are lower level functions than getent19:02
sbalneavgetent *should* be used, because getent will obey the libnss chain.19:02
alkisgsbalneav: I'll have to agree with you, as I don't know what libnss is :)19:03
sbalneavPersonally, I think there are only 3 things that are needed.19:03
alkisgI just saw a C function in a man page that claimed to read user accounts19:03
alkisgI don't remember the name, though19:03
sbalneav1) Sabayon should be fixed, so as to work correctly.  It's there, and a good idea, so re-inventing the wheel shouldn't be necessary.19:04
sbalneav2) We need to modify the standard Xsession set of tools to:19:04
sbalneav  a) Allow easy addition of user-based scripts which could be installed in /usr/share/...19:05
sbalneav  b) allow for *logout* scripts, allowing the same as above19:05
sbalneav  c) a set of tools (command line at first, similar to update-rc.d, with possibly a gui front end) to allow administrators to install/reorder/remove Xsession scripts19:06
sbalneav3) A User/Group gui tool that's got a solid plug-in architechture, to allow for local-db, LDAP, what-have-you admin.19:07
sbalneavAll 3 of these tasks are relatively(!) simple, and would be certainly easier than trying to write an it-does-everything-including-wash-your-socks application.19:08
sbalneavMore to the point, 1 and 2 could easily be moved upstream.19:08
ograbut you would end up with clean socks !!19:08
ogradont underestimate that !19:08
sbalneavI'm working on 1) atm :)19:08
sbalneavogra: wear sandals :)19:08
sbalneavThat's my opinion, FWIW19:09
ograapart from the socks i'm all with you19:10
sbalneavogra: ok, we'll create a separate update-socks.sh app for that.19:10
ograit could go into the plugin dir ... yeah :)19:10
alkisgAbout (3), I'm sure we all agree. I don't know how much sabayon can help, though.19:11
sbalneavWell, sabayon handles the desktop management.19:11
alkisgI didn't use it because well, it didn't work, but how can it help in modifying settings of existing users?19:11
sbalneavi.e. panel/background/etc.19:11
sbalneavalkisg: make settings mandatory19:12
ogralockdown ...19:12
LaserJockalkisg: sabayon applies a specific "profile" to specific users19:12
LaserJockthe profile can include a lot of things19:12
alkisgWhat is a profile? A collection of gconf settings?19:12
LaserJockand more19:12
sbalneavand more19:12
LaserJockpessulus does gconf settings19:12
alkisgAnd it just puts them to the mandatory gconf branch?19:12
sbalneavIt *can*, yes.19:12
LaserJockalkisg: it essentually unzips a new $HOME at login19:12
alkisgAnd how does it select the settings? E.g. I logon as sabayon user, I try to only put a language applet in the panel, but I end up applying 30 settings instead of one, can this be a problem?19:13
alkisgBecause if it was task based, it would be much more clean19:14
LaserJockalkisg: you edit the profile in a nested X session and it tracks the changes you make19:14
alkisgE.g. select 10 users, goto the scripts menu, and select "insert language applet"19:14
LaserJockalkisg: you can choose to ignore some changes or not, it gives you the option19:14
alkisgSo the user sees a list of 100 gconf settings, and selects the ones he wants?19:14
alkisgIt doesn't sound easy...19:15
sbalneavIt gives you a window with a standard desktop, via xnest19:15
sbalneavThis window has a desktop in it, with the two panels, etc.19:15
sbalneavIf you want to add an applet to the panel, you just... add it.19:15
LaserJockalkisg: you start with a default desktop and you mess around with what you want, including gconf settings19:16
sbalneavit doesn't *get* any easier.19:16
LaserJockthen you save the profile19:16
LaserJockand then you can choose which users to apply it to19:16
alkisgI still think it's the wrong approach19:16
alkisgBut I need to find the correct examples to express it for you... :(19:16
LaserJockI think it's great for what it does19:17
LaserJockbut it may not be exactly what you want19:17
alkisgLaserJock: it's basically the same as creating a new user, and copying all gconf settings to the mandatory or default profile.19:17
LaserJockno, it does way more than gconf19:17
alkisgThis is the wrong approach because a lot of settings get written that the user doesn't know about19:18
sbalneavwhat user?19:18
alkisgE.g. today I tried this: http://library.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/gconf-8.html.en19:19
alkisgThe proposed gnome way to modify the panels19:19
alkisgI ended up with 100 settings in the default profile, but I only wanted 1 single extra applet19:19
alkisgSo e.g. in the new Ubuntu version which would have a new applet (fusa or whatever), my profile would be wrong19:20
alkisgBut if I specifically wrote a script for it, then it would only add this one panel, and it would do exactly what I wanted19:20
LaserJockalkisg: right19:21
alkisgAnd if the users-admin tool (3) had a support for scripts, there could be a collection of e.g. 1000 scripts with a seaching facility to enable me to do the little things I wanted19:21
LaserJockbut sabayon is for really tweaking things around, not scripting things together19:21
sbalneavWell, what that page proposes is exporting an ENTIRE GCONF TREE, modifying one thing, then re-importing it.19:21
LaserJockright, and those scripts have to be updated, there's only so much they can do, and they could easily conflict19:22
alkisgsbalneav: isn't that what sabayon does with gconf settings?19:22
sbalneavso all the stuff that's part of gconf's defaults will get copied out too.19:22
alkisgLaserJock: yes, but the scripts could be maintained by different people. Look at gimp scripts for example.19:22
alkisgsbalneav: is there some way for me to run sabayon, to see it first hand?19:23
sbalneavsabayon *is broken*, I'm working *on fixing it*19:23
alkisgI _can_ apply a patch, if you have some thing...19:23
sbalneavi.e. my point 119:23
sbalneavI don't have anything definite as of yet.19:24
alkisgOK, I thought it was broken but it was working a little... :) :D19:24
LaserJockalkisg: but in this case there isn't any maintanence, you just make the changes you want to make and save it19:24
sbalneavSo, let me ask you a question.19:24
alkisgLaserJock: could you rephare that? I didn't get it19:25
sbalneavYou say you don't like sabayon/etc because it will "change too much". i.e. 100's of things.19:25
alkisgsbalneav: yes, and it's also difficult to apply to a specific set of users19:25
sbalneavSo how do you propose to add "just one thing" to the panel?19:25
alkisg(but that's what I think from what I've read, I haven't even run the program yet)19:25
alkisgsbalneav: with a script specifically written for this one thing19:26
sbalneavYou can apply by one user, a group of defined users, or by unix-group19:26
LaserJockalkisg: with sabayon you don't have to have lots of people maintaining scripts19:26
sbalneavwhat script?19:26
LaserJockalkisg: you just fire up sabayon, make your changes, and save it19:26
alkisgsbalneav: can I select 2 groups, 3 users and clear their firefox cache?19:26
LaserJockalkisg: it's all GUI and nice19:26
sbalneavYou can apply that profile to 2 groups and 3 users, yes.19:27
alkisgOK, I'll have to see it, I thought that this couldn't be done.19:27
sbalneavYou can set firefox settings as part of sabayon.19:27
sbalneavyou can't do a "clear now" thing, since sabayon profiles are only run at login.19:28
alkisgThe scripts I'm talking about would be python or shell scripts developed by anyone. If they were good, they would be accepted to the main application.19:28
Lnswith Sabayon, how does it juggle user-defined settings and "profile defined" settings, say, if the user has their own bookmarks, and then you add a bookmark through the profile they are a part of... ?19:28
alkisgsbalneav: so I can't copy a file to a set of users right now...19:28
LaserJockalkisg: right, we're just saying that with sabayon there are 0 scripts19:28
sbalneavSabayon profiles are run *at login*19:29
LaserJockLns: the user only get's the profile19:29
alkisgLaserJock: yes, but you can't also guarantee that the changes are what the admin wants. They're GUI based changes, not task based changes.19:29
alkisgSo if a user-specific path gets entered somewhere in gconf, sabayon will blindly copy it19:30
LnsLaserJock: so you're basically saying that the profiles that sabayon creates are mandatory, and overwrite the users' defined settings.19:30
LaserJockalkisg: you can review the changes if you like19:30
sbalneavLns: yes.19:30
LaserJockLns: yes, essentially19:30
alkisgLaserJock: for simple admins, looking though 100 gconf settings isn't something useful, I think...19:31
LaserJockthey don't have to19:31
alkisgHow does one "review the changes"?19:31
sbalneavalkisg: They *don't look at* 100 gconf settings.  They look at a desktop19:31
LaserJockalkisg: all I can say is wait until we get sabayon running and try it out19:31
sbalneavmake it look the way they want for the profile19:32
LaserJockalkisg: there is a GUI window for it19:32
sbalneavthen apply it to whatever users/groups they want.19:32
LaserJockmost stuff is just manipulating the actual desktop19:32
LnsI can see the benefit of using Sabayon, and also not using it - depending on your setup.19:32
LaserJockLns: right19:32
alkisgsbalneav: OK, I can't find a good example, so an imaginary one: A sabayon users gets created, the admin sets the wallpaper to /home/sabayonuser/pictures/nicepicture.jpg. Then sabayon copies that setting to all users. Of course they won't see the picture.19:32
alkisgWhat I mean is that the admin sees the GUI, but it doesn't see what happens behind the scenes19:33
sbalneavalkisg: So tell me, using your task based tool:19:33
LaserJockalkisg: what happens in the GUI I believe is what the user will see19:33
alkisgLaserJock: not if it involves user-specific paths19:34
sbalneavadmin sets background to /home/tasktool/pictures/nicepicture.jpg19:34
sbalneavHow are the users going to see it any better?19:34
sbalneavIn sabayon, if admin sets to /home/shareddir/pictures/nicepicture.jpg it will work.19:34
LnsI'd think Sabayon creates these profiles in a dir that are readable by the users that the profile applies to... .?19:34
alkisgsbalneav: if the admin selects the picture, it will be there, because it doesn't rely on a temporary user's paths19:34
alkisgAh, sabayon has a real path for its user?19:35
alkisgNot a temporary one?19:35
sbalneavalkisg: what if the admin sets the picture out of *his or her own directory*?19:35
sbalneavi.e. admin sees nice picture, downloads it to home dir, and sets that background with the tool19:36
sbalneavit's no different.19:36
alkisgsbalneav: I'm not saying it will be dummy proof...19:36
alkisgI need to find a good example... :(19:36
sbalneavYou've come up with a completly specious example, you say "see, this won't work in sabayon", but it *wont work any better for you*19:37
sbalneavLets talk practicalities.19:37
sbalneav1) sabayon's here today, it just needs work.19:37
sbalneavA few more hours of love, and we may have *something*19:37
sbalneavcompared to your idea, which a) isn't written b) has no delivery date.19:38
alkisgYou take an applet and stick it to the right of the panel. This is gui based. This doesn't do what you want, because if a user logs in on a bigger screen, he will see the applet to the middle of the panel. The gui way used coordinates, and that was the problem. A task-based tool would use the "right-align" gconf setting. Something like that, but again, I can't find a good example.19:38
LaserJockalkisg: right, there's no reason you can't have both19:39
sbalneavIf we're going to improve jaunty, we should focus on fixing things we have, and are just needing fixes.  As opposed to spending our time trying to rewrite yet another management app from scratch19:39
LaserJockalkisg: sabayon already does that with pessulus19:39
sbalneavCertainly, this is open source, and you're welcome to do anything you want.  However, for jaunty, if we could get at least 1 and 2 on my list done, we'd have SOMETHING that the admins could use for management.  Which is better than we have now.19:40
LaserJockI think the point here is we can talk about several different management schemes and lots of different management needs19:40
LaserJockthey're not all or nothing19:40
LaserJockright now sabayon is a very advanced tool that's broken19:40
LaserJockwe need to fix it19:40
LaserJockthanks to sbalneav we might get it fixed soonish19:41
LnsI think maybe what alkisg is looking for is more of an equiv to M$'s "Group Policy Editor".19:41
LaserJockcompletely orthogonal to that would be the scripting support19:41
alkisgLns, no, I haven't seen anything equievelant in either linux or windows19:41
Lnsalkisg: ok scratch that. ;)19:41
LaserJockso we need to define what tasks/tools we want to have19:42
alkisgWell, I need to see sabayon in order to decide if it covers my needs or not. So, sbalneav, what's the best way to help?19:42
LaserJockwhat current apps work to fulfil those19:42
LaserJockand which are missing19:42
LnsLaserJock: i can def. help with the list, i have a largeish one from some of my techs19:42
alkisgLns, could I see that list? I was looking for such a list myself...19:43
sbalneavalkisg: I'm hoping to spend more time on it tonight, so I may have a patch to try for tomorrow.19:44
sbalneavtesting's important.19:44
sbalneavwe NEED to make sure it works for jaunty.19:44
sbalneavbrb, workping.19:44
alkisgsbalneav: if I could get a running version, I could even submit patches for some bugs, but I don't think I'm able to help until it's in a running state (I've looked at the sources a little)19:44
LaserJockLns, alkisg: let's start a wiki page on wiki.ubuntu.com on spec'ing out user management needs19:48
alkisgLaserJock: good idea.19:48
Lnsalkisg: * Shared Firefox bookmarks between groups of users * Create custom XDG menus (edubuntu-menus integration?) * Easy ACLs * are a few19:49
LnsLaserJock: cool19:49
alkisgLns, wow, that's not a sabayon task! :)19:50
alkisgLaserJock, also, I once told you about an ubuntu/ltsp installation manual that I wrote for the Greek ministry of education, and you told me to notify you when it was published. It's here: http://ts.sch.gr/ts/downloadsDetails.do?action=downloadsDetails&itemId=238811 - but it's temporarily offline.19:50
LaserJockalkisg: ok19:53
LaserJockI think we really need work on getting resources on wiki.ubuntu.com/help.ubuntu.com/edubuntu.org19:53
LaserJocka number of you guys have been doing great work, but often it ends up on wikis or website scattered around19:54
LaserJockwe need to collect those together19:54
LnsLaserJock: agreed19:56
LaserJocknubae: did you see http://cass.no-ip.com/~cassidy/blog/index.php/post/2009/01/24/Desktop-integration-of-the-Abiword-collaboration21:47
Ruben_____somebody from spain please?22:33
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about spain22:54
nothingmanhi, all23:06

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