=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
=== nhandler_ is now known as nhandler
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
=== Mamarok_ is now known as Mamarok
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor2-away
=== davmor2-away is now known as davmor2
=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
MootBotMeeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.16:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:00
robbiewhey Mooty...what's up?16:00
* mvo waves16:00
Keybukrobbiew: I haven't set you my activity summary yet, sorry16:02
robbiewno worries...you aren't alone ;)16:02
robbiewliw is out....doko?16:04
robbiewok...can get started16:05
robbiewhas everyone gotten a chance to post and/or comment on the distro sprint team agenda?16:05
slangasek== Sponsorship ==16:05
slangasek * missed this week; will do double-duty next week16:05
slangasek== Misc ==16:05
slangasekgar damn mouse16:06
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations16:06
robbiewslangasek: no worries :)16:06
robbiew"cruft remover/update-manager quirks code merge coding session [liw, mvo] "16:06
robbiewthis will obviously not happen...at least in person16:07
cjwatsonoh, is liw not going to be in Berlin either? :(16:07
Keybukrobbiew: yes, I've added a few bits16:07
evandWhat still needs to be done for GRUB UUID support?16:07
robbiewliw injured his back16:07
Keybukis liw ok?16:07
doko_yes, added16:07
evandout of curiosity16:07
robbiewKeybuk: yes16:07
cjwatsonevand: it locates the root filesystem using UUIDs; but it doesn't locate its own stage1.5 that way16:08
robbiewKeybuk: drugged and resting16:08
mvo:( poor liw16:08
evandright, apologies you mentioned that before16:08
cjwatsonwhich I believe is the last remaining piece until grub no longer really cares about drive order16:08
cjwatsonI was reminded about this by a rather inflammatory forums thread recently, and we really ought to clear it up16:08
cjwatsondo send my regards to liw if you're speaking with him16:09
robbiewthere's also a cross-team agenda16:09
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda16:09
robbiewcjwatson: will do16:09
* Keybuk spent an entertaining hour dealing with GRUB being unable to find stage 2 (I think) the other day16:09
robbiewI didn't really put much on the global agenda...dendrobates should be updating with an EC2 demo16:09
robbiewin any case, we're roomies...so I can drag him into our room if needed :P16:10
robbiewKeybuk: it was mentioned that perhaps we do an overview of boot performance work...interested?16:10
robbiewI didn't agree to it, or anything16:11
robbiewmaybe a rehearsal for FOSDEM presentation ;)16:11
Keybukrobbiew: sure16:12
robbiewcool...I'll let randa know16:12
* robbiew has a presentation! whew16:12
robbiewmoving along...Feature Status16:13
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.0416:13
* Keybuk must finish his fosdem presentation16:13
robbiewneed Specs at least ready for Review by this Friday16:13
Keybukrobbiew: my spec is ready for Review ;)16:13
robbiewif you don't think you can make it...let me know16:13
robbiewalso, would like to know when you expect to deliver16:14
robbiewi.e. which milestone16:14
slangasekmy specs will be there16:15
slangasekas dubious as that might seem at the moment :-)16:15
robbiewok, thnx16:15
Keybukrobbiew: I guess I'll finish the last major changes for beta16:15
robbiewKeybuk: okay16:15
robbiewnext is the usual16:16
robbiew9 bugs for Alpha 4...nice16:16
slangasekI may supplement those numbers before Friday, yet16:17
robbiewnice work on the buglist...everything under Foundations has an assignee16:17
MootBotLINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/7855216:18
ubottuLaunchpad bug 78552 in grub "/sbin/update-grub complains about being run instead of /usr/sbin/update-grub" [Undecided,Confirmed]16:18
cjwatsonI'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint :)16:18
Keybuksee, this is why warnings are pointless ;)16:19
Keybukyou should just break things and move on16:19
cjwatsonor, in the case of update-grub, leave it alone since it was just fine where it was ;-)16:19
Keybukwell, yes, it does surprise me that it's not in /sbin16:19
cjwatsonin that case the warning is silly because it discourages being called based on $PATH16:20
cjwatsonI think it was because it used something in /usr16:20
Keybukoh, I know16:20
cjwatsonanyway the move discussion was incredibly tedious and I have no wish to repeat it, but anyone could hoover up the warning; I think there might have been a relevant unmerged change in Debian, even16:20
robbiewit's just a warning, right?16:22
robbiewI mean...does anything actually break?16:22
slangasekthe reason the warning there is because they wanted to eventually move the script out of /sbin16:22
slangasekso Debian's plan is to eventually make /sbin/update-grub go away, and then the warning becomes an error on any systems still using it16:23
cjwatsonright, in practice it false-positives on people with /sbin ahead of /usr/sbin in $PATH too though16:23
cjwatsonand also /etc/kernel-img.conf hasn't got reliably upgraded16:23
cjwatsonso there is *some* genuine cleanup to do16:23
slangasekright; if /etc/kernel-img.conf were reliably upgrading there shouldn't have been a need for a warning in the first place :)16:24
cjwatsonbut the cost of leaving it there is approximately nil so meh. I think it's just on the list because it's annoying16:24
TheMusoYay. Seems OpenOffice wants to crash whenever I load the room list for the sprint, and orca is running... :S16:24
robbiewcjwatson: so is this something the kernel team should address?16:25
slangaseknah, it's pretty foundation-y16:25
Keybukis it?16:25
Keybukgrub is pretty kernel-y :)16:25
slangasekKeybuk: like udev is?16:25
Keybukthey touched it last16:25
slangasekI prefer my shell scripts to the kernel team's ;)16:25
slangaseki.e., I'll take this bug if no one else is volunteering16:26
Keybukkernel people think userspace is an annoying botherance - we wouldn't trust them with things like udev ;)16:26
robbiewslangasek: thanks16:26
Keybukslangasek: I thought colin and I agreed to look at it?16:26
slangasekoh?  I thought that was another bug #16:26
robbiew"cjwatson: I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint "16:27
robbiewKeybuk ^16:27
cjwatsonthat's a different unassigned bug on the list16:27
cjwatsonthat's the "non-ASCII characters busted at console login" bug16:28
KeybukI'm happy to do the update-grub fixing16:28
Keybukif slangasek doesn't want to ;)16:28
* robbiew lets slangasek and Keybuk fight over it ;)16:28
Keybukwe could PAIR PROGRAM!16:28
slangaseknah, I'll take it, currently none of the other bugs on that list are mine16:28
slangasekKeybuk: EXTREME POSIX SH16:28
robbiewslangasek: thanks16:29
robbiewKeybuk: uh overkill :P16:29
evandBe sure to insert some design patterns into that code.16:29
robbiewnext is the Sponsorship Queue...our good friend :)16:29
Keybukrobbiew: sorry, flashback to my days on the launchpad team there16:29
robbiewseems to be getting a little long16:30
cjwatsonI did a double shift last week due to slacking the week before16:30
slangasekI notice there are a lot of items lingering on the sponsorship queue that are patches for our Special Packages that core-dev don't have commit rights to16:30
Keybukslangasek: oh?16:30
slangasekKeybuk: mozilla, etc16:31
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
Keybukyeah, now that I'm always checking bzr first, packages which I can't commit to really irritate me16:31
slangasekI think my complaint about this at UDS was lost in the noise of the plenary :)16:32
robbiewslangasek: dholbach seems to have returned ;)16:33
robbiewwell that's all I really have for this meeting...Bad News is there16:33
robbiewGood news...go Steve and everyone else who helped with 8.04.216:34
robbiewwhoohoo! :P16:34
cjwatsonBad news: pitti and I are currently fighting with ext3 file recovery after a bit of an, er, incident on cocoplum16:34
dholbachrobbiew: how can I help?16:34
TheMusoFor those who are interested, dmraid will likely be moved into mdadm at some point, or at least the dmraid metadata support will.16:34
robbiewcjwatson: oh?16:35
cjwatsonso the archive is currently at reduced functionality; we're well on our way to recovery though, and will deal with the backups that should have existed afterwards16:35
evandShould we avoid uploads until further notice?16:35
cjwatsonfeel free to upload16:35
cjwatsonit just took out some of the auxiliary scripts16:35
robbiewdholbach: slangasek had a remark about the sponsorship queue...16:35
dholbachslangasek: OK? :)16:36
robbiewdholbach: just mentioned your name...and to bring it up with you ;)16:36
slangasekso as far as 8.04.2, we had a bit of bad news there as well and some packages from -proposed wound up going out the door - I'm in the process of trying to get all of those packages through the SRU process so we can re-snapshot16:36
slangasekhelp with the SRU verification process would be appreciated16:36
cjwatsondid you ever find out what went wrong there?16:37
slangaseknot with any certainty16:37
slangasekdebian-cd was changed back to enable PROPOSED again; I don't remember having done that16:38
cjwatsonnor I16:38
slangasekso either I did and forgot, or somebody else did and isn't fessing up, or something went wrong in a merge when the checkout was updated16:38
robbieware there logs for things like this16:39
james_wyou're using an SVN checkout?16:39
evandbzr blame?16:39
slangasekjames_w: ugh no, bzr16:39
slangasekevand: it was a local change that was never committed16:39
evandah, ouch16:40
slangasek(because we toggle PROPOSED on and off throughout the point release cycle, I didn't bother committing)16:40
cjwatsonin future we probably should, I guess16:40
cjwatsonwould give us that tracking16:40
slangasekso us CD folks will just have to take collective blame in this case16:40
slangasekor I can take all the blame for not having committed it :)16:40
* robbiew avoids the "do we need an incident report" as...I think we don't ;)16:40
robbiewslangasek: heh16:41
slangasektechnically, we didn't introduce any regressions in -updates :P16:41
robbiewok...so any "GOOD" news?16:41
robbiewI got shirts :P16:41
james_wwe're off to Berlin :-)16:42
robbiewbut I suppose  that's good16:42
dholbachit's -2°C right now16:42
* mvo shivers already16:42
robbiewkeeps the beer from getting warm ;)16:42
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:42.16:42
TheMusoOk that is cold.16:42
robbiewdon't need that in the logs :P16:42
mvoheh :)16:43
robbiewTheMuso has to change seasons!16:43
Keybukwhy don't we hold the January sprint in Sydney next year? :)16:43
slangasekthanks, all. :)16:43
robbiewor the Bahamas16:43
robbiewthanks all16:43
slangasekUbuntu Off Shore16:43
Keybukwe've still never had a sprint on the Isle of Man16:44
evandUDS Sealand?16:46
davmor2evand: they'll have the bandwidth :)16:46
* ara_ waves16:56
pedro_hello everybody16:58
henohey everyone17:00
henolet's start17:00
MootBotMeeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.17:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:00
henoagenda as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings17:01
heno* Wiki migration progress17:01
henoschwuk: any word on getting the current pages copied over?17:02
davmor2I've done some work to the initial layout and would like feed back on any hardware that I might of forgotten.  Also if there are any other install methods I might of missed :)17:02
schwukheno: no - am chasing it up17:02
henodavmor2: the actual HW test cases will be on sub-pages of that right?17:04
davmor2Henrik Omma: Yes I just want to ensure that I haven't missed any HW for now17:05
henowe can always backfill17:07
henoI'm wondering if install should be its own root, rather than in System?17:07
davmor2Henrik Omma: Well the largest part of system is the installers so up to you17:08
davmor2Henrik Omma: the only other things that I thought about putting in the are all the system effecting tools like add/remove synaptic etc17:09
henoLet's do that then and leave System for system-level packages and system-integrity tests17:09
davmor2okay I transfer them over tomorrow then17:10
ara_I agree, System for installers is a bit confusing. +117:10
henowe should check for things like correct write permissions17:10
henodavmor2: thanks17:10
henoschwuk: look forward to seeing the new theme on there :)17:11
henoany ETA?17:11
henoschwuk: you can use the icon from here: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website17:12
schwukheno: imminently. Merged your changes and some borrowed from qa-website and the ubuntu wiki17:12
ara_s/borrowed/stolen ;-)17:12
henoara_: should we plan a testing day where we go through and test all the new cases on the wiki?17:13
henothat should help us discover gaps etc17:13
henotesting the tests :)17:13
henowhen is a good time17:13
davmor2how about mid november ;)17:13
ara_when the cases are ready? :)17:14
henoit will also give us a useful checkpoint for the migration17:14
henolet's try the week after the sprint?17:14
ara_davmor2: is that feasible?17:15
ara_davmor2: what do you think?17:15
davmor2when's the sprint17:15
ara_next week17:15
ara_davmor2: when do you think the cases would be ready?17:15
davmor2the 5th is alpha 4 so testing will take up a lot of time.  Unless that date has changed17:16
henoHow can we help davmor2 with this? can we run a 2-hour migration-mini-sprint in Berlin?17:17
schwukdon't see why not17:17
ara_heno: sure17:17
henogreat, sounds like fun!17:17
ara_heno, davmor2: if we do that, it would be better if davmor2 prepares a plan17:18
davmor2I think we can get a reasonable ubuntu apps and install up by then but that might be about it.  However after next week I can knuckle down with the test again17:18
ara_heno:  so we get the most of those two hours17:18
henoara_: agreed17:18
henodavmor2: can we have a quick planning call tomorrow?17:19
davmor2Henrik Omma: np's17:19
henook, thanks for the updates17:19
henoany other meeting business?17:19
ara_the ubuntu-qa-tools package is in REVU now17:20
ara_if you want your fancy script to be added to the package before is too late, send it to me17:21
henolet's make sure we get someone to review it last week17:21
ara_heno: dholbach and mok0 are already reviewing it17:21
henoNext week most of us will be at a sprint in Berlin17:23
heno(for those who did not know)17:23
schwukwe are?17:23
henoshould we schedule a meeting for next week?17:24
davmor2I am too now :)17:24
henoa public IRC and/or voice meeting that is17:24
davmor2Voice might be fun as most of you will be there won't you?17:24
schwukheno: a public voice meeting might not be a bad idea. IRC seems a bit like overkill considering participation17:25
heno(e do actually have some in-person meetings scheduled already)17:25
davmor2skype works so that might be the best idea :)17:25
henook - I'll make sure to bring a mic and speakers17:26
henolet's wrap up the meeting17:28
henoremember compiz bug day tomorrow!17:28
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:28.17:28
\lTechnoviking, ping18:51
=== \l is now known as licio
Riddellgood evening friends22:00
Riddellhow are we enjoying KDE 4.2?22:00
* ScottK is sticking with 4.1.4 until we get the SRU through.22:01
DaSkreechGood 4.3 appetizer :)22:01
LureRiddell: big time!22:01
* Nightrose waves22:01
Nightrosevery much sir22:01
* DaSkreech throws himself off a cliff and lands on Nightrose22:01
Riddellis anyone here for membership?22:01
NightroseDaSkreech: outsch :P22:02
* jussi01 waves22:02
DaSkreechI'm a cute puffy cloud the only ouches I have are from my electric personality22:02
stdinperfect time for LP to have scheduled down time22:02
DaSkreechYay seele22:03
seeleso i put the phone by my ear.. and didn't set the alarm22:03
seelebut i have a very loud text message22:03
seelehere i am!22:03
* seele yawns22:03
* a|wen waves (a bit late as well)22:03
ScottKa|wen: I uploaded your kdepim fix for 4.1.4.  Waiting for it to be accepted ...22:03
Riddellshall we start at the top of the agenda?22:04
Riddellseele has an item about kpackagekit22:04
a|wenthx ScottK22:04
ScottKIs there a link for the agenda?22:04
seelecolomar and i reviewed kpackagekit22:04
seelealthough (imo) it is still better than adept, it still has some problems22:05
seeleand there doesnt seem to be a maintainer for it who can fix them22:05
seelealso.. adept is now without a maintainer and i think there are still some open bugs about it?22:05
JontheEchidnaabout 45, including wishlist items22:05
seeleScottK had mentioned some concerns regarding signed packages and security22:05
jjesseand no help manual for adept22:05
Tonio_JontheEchidna: :)22:05
seeleand there is no interactive installation22:06
seeleso.. what should we do?22:06
DaSkreechis adept shipping in Jackalope?22:06
JontheEchidnaDaSkreech: that's what we're deciding22:06
seele...that is what we are here to decide22:06
jjessethat's the question22:06
DaSkreechah ok22:06
Tonio_my 2 cents : bet on the future, and the future is not adept22:06
ScottKAs far as my security concerns are, Adept and KPackageKit are equally broken.22:06
JontheEchidnayeah, we can always fall back on adept if kpackagekit falls through22:07
RiddellI'm all for kpackagekit kit, I think we'll find people to work on it same as we did for adept when we had to22:07
stdinthe general consensus from users is that they hate Adept :(22:07
Tonio_kpackagekit isn't perfect at all, but as you said, still better than adept, and since some other distros are gonna use it (fedora...) it'll not be abandonned22:07
colomarSo adept doesn't care about package signatures either?22:07
ScottKComparing the two, I think the lack of dealing with connfile changes correctly is a significant issue22:07
JontheEchidnacolomar: correct22:07
seeleok.. so if we go with kpackagekit there is another issue. it only lists packages there is no "application" categorization22:07
Riddellseele: as I remember rgreening volunteered to work on that for jaunty22:08
seeledo we have someone competent in C++ who wants to take a stab at extending the existing search for a new page of applications?22:08
seeleRiddell: ah hah!22:08
Riddellat UDS22:08
seelehe's not here though is he22:08
Tonio_seele: the gnome one does, so there is probably a functionnality needed to be implemented22:08
Tonio_seele: but packagekit does it22:08
Riddellseele: not right now but we just need to poke him to do it I think22:08
seelealso, search needs greatly improved.. the filters do not work in the right order22:08
seelefinally, there are some other minor ui tweaks which are important, but not as important as the former22:09
colomarI also read that the packagekit adept backend supports search in package descriptions, but the current kpackagekit doesn't22:09
Riddellcolomar: then that should be fairly easy to fix22:09
DaSkreechAdept KDE4 was pretty broken22:09
JontheEchidnaadept doesn't use packagekit22:09
jjesseadept kde4 was hard to understand/use22:09
BluesKajkpackagekit , replacement for adept .. sounds interesting . The latest adept isn't much to my liking anyway .22:09
yuriyDaSkreech: oh?22:09
Tonio_colomar: once again, packagekit supports that, but not kpackagekit, so it' probably not that hard to fix22:09
colomarI meant the apt backend22:09
colomarTonio_: That's good22:10
DaSkreechI just want debtags22:10
ScottKThe one thing Adept does to right is deal with conffile changes.22:10
alleeJauntyseele: are you're list of 'needs to be fixed' written down somewhere?22:10
Riddellthe MIR for packagekit is still outstanding, but asac and pitti said they'd look at them this week22:10
DaSkreechWhatever gets me debtags I'm happy :)22:10
jjesseallejaunty seele sent them to kubuntu-devel mailing list22:10
* JontheEchidna goes to eat :( /me is for kpackagekit though22:10
jjessesorry no tab completion on this web client22:10
* ScottK is against22:10
seelealleeJaunty: yes, we have a review page on the kubuntu wiki. our working comments need to be cleaned up and then we will publish it22:10
Tonio_colomar: the thing is that for jaunty, kpackagekit will not be the same functionnality level than the gnome UI, but I have absolutly no doubt that'll change in the future, since other distros might consider using it22:11
seelejjesse: i think he was talking about the kpackagekit review22:11
seeleScottK: you are against kpackagekit?22:11
DaSkreechTonio_: Will it be usable?22:11
Tonio_DaSkreech: more than adept imho22:11
ScottKI think the "we dont' care about conffile conflicts" decision is wrong.22:11
jjessearen't we debating on the lesser of two evils?22:11
DaSkreechOther than the Adept not updating the database currently I can use it22:11
ScottKI think it will lead to broken systems.22:11
BluesKajwhat about apt ...is it being looked at too ?22:12
seeledoes anyone else have concerns about how kpackagekit handles conflicts?22:12
colomarTonio_: Yeah but the problem is that if we have a packe management tool in jaunty that supports neither software selection nor description search nor filters that are actually useful, we're in trouble22:12
Tonio_ScottK people capable to understand the conffile questions don't use a graphical package manager22:12
DaSkreechjjesse: indeed but also which is easier to corrupt to the side of goos22:12
Tonio_ScottK they generally use apt/aptitude22:12
stdinhow hard would it to get kpackagekit to popup a dialog for conf changes?22:12
RiddellI agree with Tonio_ for the most part on conffiles22:12
ScottKTonio_: That's a very Xandros attitude22:12
Tonio_ScottK I'm deploying kde in corp environment, and believe me the very first thing we are asked is "make it shut up"22:13
Riddellstdin: hard, it needs big changes in packagekit22:13
seeleTonio_: the two things i listed really need to be fixed if we ship kpackagekit. Riddell reminds me that rgreening volunteered to shape kpackagekit up but he isnt here at the moment22:13
ScottKTonio_: For a controlled environment like that, it's fine.22:13
BluesKajso obviously you dev guys are leaving apt alone ... good :)22:13
a|wenwhat does kpackagekit do with conf-file conflicts atm?22:13
seelestdin: i think that is beyond the scope of what we can do in time. but rgreening would be the one to ask22:13
Tonio_ScottK my mother wouldn't know what to respond is asked that dhclient.con has changed because a script touched it22:13
Riddella|wen: go with the current one I think22:13
DaSkreechRiddell: Are other distros looking at getting that in?22:13
stdinTonio_: just because someone has a httpd for example, doesn't mean they never see the "there are x updates available" bubble and click it22:13
Tonio_ScottK that's obvious22:13
RiddellDaSkreech: fedora already has it22:13
seeleDaSkreech: fedora uses it22:14
ScottKTonio_: Such people don't modify conffiles either.22:14
DaSkreechRiddell: message popups in kpackage kit?22:14
jjesseit works decent in fedora22:14
Tonio_ScottK scripts do (dhclient is script modified)22:14
jjesseseems to be easier to understand then adept was ever22:14
RiddellDaSkreech: oh no, they have kpackagekit generally22:14
Tonio_stdin: the default action is to keep the old conf file22:14
ScottKRiddell: Fedora also likes the xorg-server patch that screws up KDE22:14
Tonio_stdin: 99% of the times that is the fine choice22:14
ScottKFedora also shipped KDE 4.0 as a usable system for end users.22:15
* yuriy should try out kpackagekit22:15
ScottKNot much of a vote IMO22:15
Tonio_stdin: and the config won't get lost22:15
DaSkreech!info kpackagekit22:15
ubottuPackage kpackagekit does not exist in intrepid22:15
stdinok, but it's something to fix sooner rather than later though22:15
DaSkreechstdin: Can it be fixed?22:15
stdinobviously not in time for jaunty22:15
Tonio_stdin: what to fix ? asking questions ?22:15
ScottKSo far we have no one doing any fixing.22:15
Riddellyes, ubuntu will write its own packagekit backend is the plan22:15
Riddellbut not for jaunty22:16
ScottKSo any theory about what might change is pretty irrelevant.22:16
seeleok.. so i think we need to regroup22:16
DaSkreechScottK: not if it can't be fixed at all22:16
stdinTonio_: generally graphical debconf prompts22:16
ScottKDaSkreech: Sure.  That's true.22:16
seelethere isn't going to be time to do much with kpackagekit22:16
Tonio_stdin: those are creating problems22:16
a|wenif we at least can get an (optional) popup that the conf-file has  changed it's a usable start imo ... realistic?22:17
Tonio_stdin: my ex already answered yes when adept proposed to close kdm22:17
DaSkreechseele: Is there a list of your concerns somewhere?22:17
Tonio_that close kdm.... and adept22:17
Tonio_and the upgrade was broken22:17
* seele sighs22:17
seeleDaSkreech: yes, i already said so22:17
Tonio_people don't understand those questions, most of the times22:17
DaSkreechSorry if i missed it22:17
Riddellwe should move on22:17
stdinTonio_: I was thinking about how mysql-server asks for a password, and things like that22:17
DaSkreechand java licenses >_>22:18
Riddellthe plan is to go with kpackagekit and generally that's better than the alternative22:18
jjesseif we are moving on did we decide anything?22:18
stdinif people don't read dialogs before clicking "OK", then that's their fault ;)22:18
seelewe did not decide anything22:18
Tonio_stdin: in that case you don't use a graphical component :)22:18
seeleso.. let's pause the conversation for a few minutes here22:18
seeleor else we'll never reach a conclusion22:18
seelethree votes:22:19
seeleVote 1 for package kit *as is*22:19
seeleVote 2 for package kit with the two UI requirements colomar and i came up with22:19
seeleVote 3 for package kit *only* if it gets the config file handling thing you all are discussing22:19
seeleplease express you wish now.22:20
seele1, but 2 would be nice.22:20
Tonio_2, but even 1 is fine with me, thinking about the future22:20
stdinbetter than unmaintained adept22:20
a|wen3- (as long as we get a popup)22:20
seeleis yuriy or apachelogger here?22:20
alleeJaunty1. 2 would be really nice to have22:21
* apachelogger didn't follow the discussion so has no clue what the config file handling would be22:21
apachelogger1 though :)22:21
Lure1 (2 nice to have)22:21
apachelogger(2 of course preferred=22:21
ScottKapachelogger: Same as adept does and ask you about overwriting conffile changes22:21
jjesse1 (2 nice to have) but doesn't know if vote matters22:21
seelejjesse: it does unless there is a conflict and we'll go with whatever council says. but i'd like to make it a member vote22:22
alleeJauntyapachelogger: you know what you're doing so you should use apt(itude)  as long as 3 isn't working22:22
seeleok.  so there are lots of 1s and some 2s.22:22
jjessewhatever we decide i'll work on documenting it22:23
seeleonly two people are concerned about the configuration files22:23
BluesKajI am but not a member so...22:23
yuriyI haven't tried kpackagekit at all, so I dunno22:23
seelei will ask nixternal and yuriy what they think, unless they feel strongly about option 3, we will ship kpackage kit22:23
seelecouncil ok with that?22:23
DaSkreechabsolute number of 1s and 2 are the same22:23
james_wI'll also point out that it would make it impossible to install e.g. sun java where you *must* answer a debconf prompt for it to install.22:23
DaSkreechnumber of ones preceeding 2s is greater22:23
Tonio_seele: fine with me22:23
seeleDaSkreech: most of the 2s were nice to haves22:23
seeleyuriy and nixternal are both on council correct?22:23
DaSkreechYeah I just said that :)22:23
jjesseok so in the documentation we are now referencing kpackagekit in how to install software?22:24
Lureseele: I am also concerned about conffiles, but adept is not that much better22:24
Riddellseele: they are22:24
Lureseele: I more vote for the future22:24
yuriyI do think configuration files (more generally, questions during installation) are a concern though22:24
seeleso unless one of them are strongly opposed to it (which we will have to rediscuss) then this is what we're going for22:24
DaSkreechWith no canges?22:24
Riddellwith changes if rgreening or someone will do them22:24
seeleDaSkreech: we will go with kpackagekit unless yuriy and nixternal are strongly opposed for reason 322:25
seelecolomar and I will work with rgreening in the meantime to see what he can accomplish in the next two weeks22:25
seeleso.. end of kpackagekit discussion22:25
seelenext.. quassel22:25
seeleany quassel devs here? i think Sput is probably sleeping by now22:25
NightroseEgS: poke22:25
EgSouch :)22:25
seeleScottK: you are pretty up on their development. is there anything we should know in the consideration of quassel?22:26
stdinjussi01's favourite subject22:26
seelebtw. this discussion is about including quassel as the default irc client. our goal is to be kde4libs only and konversation has not been ported22:26
seeleScottK: ping22:26
seeleok so anyway22:26
jjesseif we use quassel it will be yet another application by defualt with no documentation/help file22:26
NightroseEgS: how's the progress on seele's list?22:26
* jussi01 thinks that the quassel devs response times are excellent. 22:26
DaSkreechQuassel has KDE4 integration now I hear?22:27
seelei did a UI review of quassel and came up with a list of issues they had to address22:27
seelethe quassel code monkeys have fixed many minor issues and are currently working on bigger issues22:27
seelethis includes a toolbar for common irc actions and a better connection dialog for when the irc client opens22:27
EgSseele: thought the biggest issue (the separation of core / client) is fixed ;)22:28
seelei'm not sure what the status of those two things are22:28
* Nightrose is using quassel as her client for a few months now and is impressed with the latest changes22:28
seeleEgS: just about to say that :)22:28
EgStoolbar is coming soonish, as we have now nice new icons :)22:28
seelethey have done a great job of separating the core and client in to a monolithic client22:28
* JontheEchidna was actually able to replace konversation with quassel :D22:28
seeleEgS: do you have any concerns about getting things done by featurefreeze?22:28
seele^ Feb 19th i think?22:28
BluesKajseele , I hope so cuz I found quassel kinda clunky , hope it gets fixed22:28
* DaSkreech would be concerned with connection experience22:29
* Lure switched to quassel and likes it 22:29
* alleeJaunty tried quassel 2 hours ago for the first time. Still much too complicated, but I can see the potential22:29
DaSkreech#kubuntu is the main help for people drastically confused as to what is going on22:29
seeleso for those of you concerned with quassel, it improves every day. so unless you have been keeping up with /trunk/ via ScottK's PPA, you are probably missing a lot22:29
EgSseele: no I don't. I consider the toolbar a small issue too (at least judging by the amount of work needed)22:29
DaSkreechAnd one of the things I liked about KDE was it was much easier to jump on IRC to get help22:29
seeleEgS: ok.  I gave Sput some suggestions on how to use the existing network Config as the connection screen too22:30
* alleeJaunty checks the ppa22:30
jjessewhat is scottk's ppa?  is it jaunty only?22:30
BluesKajDaSkreech , I have quassel working ok , but the setup is a bit confusing IMO22:30
seelejjesse: no, it is available for intrepid too22:30
* jjesse makes note22:30
* ScottK is back22:30
jussi01jjesse: ~kitterman22:30
DaSkreechBluesKaj: and you are very familar with IRC concepts22:30
seeleso, basically there are two more things left on my requirements list that they are confident they will complete: the toolbar and the connection screen22:30
Nightrosepeople don't forget that there are two ways to use quassel22:30
seelethe goal was to make quassel easy enough for users to be able to launch the program and connect to #kubuntu for help22:30
jussi01BluesKaj: but are you using the new mono client or?22:30
Nightrosethe monolithic one got a lot easier lately22:30
seeleadditional UI refinement can come later22:31
DaSkreechNightrose: Sweet22:31
seelesince we don't have any other options, i dont think we need to vote22:31
DaSkreechJust a note as to what needs to be done22:31
seeleso unless something blows up in terms of development in the next two weeks, i recommend we ship quassel22:31
seeleanyone opposed?22:31
BluesKajDaSkreech , I hope that was said in jest , concepts no, but useability , yes ...I've tried many clients over the yrs22:31
jussi01+1 from me :D22:31
ScottKI'll just toss in that Quassel's upstream is very active and very responsive.22:31
Riddellis it keeping the wee window at the top with data from all channels?22:32
ScottKAlso kees just did a security review and he found it well designed.22:32
ScottKRiddell: It is22:32
RiddellScottK: oh he did that?22:32
seeleRiddell: that's an option that can be configured.  we can decide later if we want to enable that by default22:32
ScottKRiddell: He did.22:32
RiddellScottK: can you make sure the MIR bug is updated22:32
ScottKRiddell: I will.22:32
Tonio_+1 for me22:32
stdinwe should disable the buffer at the top IMO, it will confuse people :p22:32
seeleok. i hear no one opposed about the inclusion of quassel22:32
seeleEgS: congratulations ;)22:33
DaSkreechBluesKaj: Same thing :)22:33
jjesse+1 from me but only because konversation is no longer a choice22:33
seelenet topic is the removal of Arts. is andreas here?22:33
* a|wen waves22:33
BluesKajDaSkreech , so what's your opinion of quassel ?22:33
seelea|wen: want to tell us about arts22:33
ScottKSince knights is broken due to lack of KDE3, just remove it.22:34
seeleBluesKaj: DaSkreech: please talk about that out of channel for the time being22:34
ScottKI've been asking for removal of such packages as I find them.22:34
a|wenthe removal is tracked here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RemoveArts22:34
DaSkreechGreat Concept. Like the buffers It's a goof GUI analogy to Screen and irssi needs to have a two click setup if we are going to have it by default22:34
BluesKajseele, ok sry22:34
Tonio_ScottK then we should consider all kde3 ioslaves to drop :)22:34
a|wenmost of them should be able to be compiled without arts ... but there is to problems22:34
ScottKTonio_: OK22:34
Tonio_ScottK kio-beagle, kio-locate, datakiosk... those are broken22:35
a|wennateon and knights ... are we ok on dropping them?22:35
RiddellTonio_: give me a list and I'll remove them22:35
seelewhat are nateon and knights?22:35
Tonio_Riddell: yup, will do22:35
Riddellknights is chess22:35
JontheEchidnaseele: nateon is a korean chat app22:35
BluesKajhmm , brb22:35
* ScottK points seele at the agenda22:35
jussi01seele: agenda ;)22:35
seele? we're talking about arts right?22:35
JontheEchidnayes, they depend on arts22:36
EgSas a general note: if anybody feels he needs to discuss something about quassel or needs fast feedback: feel yourself invited to join #quassel22:36
seeleis there another kde chess game?22:36
seeleor do we care if we have a chess game?22:36
ScottKseele: It doesn't matter, it's broken anyway22:36
apacheloggerseele: agenda :P22:36
Riddella|wen: I take it nateon can't be compiled without arts?22:36
a|wenthat is our problem (maybe)22:36
ScottKCan arts be patched out of nateon?22:36
a|wenRiddell: exactly22:36
apacheloggerwe could hack it up22:37
apacheloggerdoesn't seem to be very popular22:37
JontheEchidnawe must not be big with the south koreans22:37
apacheloggerJontheEchidna: we have crap localization, what do you expect :P22:37
ScottKThat's in Debian, not Kubuntu22:37
apacheloggerScottK: well, it gives an idea22:37
DaSkreechseele: I think there are enough Chess games that people won't get huffy about it22:37
Tonio_DaSkreech: +122:38
JontheEchidnadood, people get huffy is kpdf and kghostview aren't in intrepid22:38
JontheEchidnaeven though they have okular22:38
a|weni don't think hacking op nateon is worth it (and documentation is in korean!!)22:38
DaSkreechubottu knows at least 5 or 622:38
ubottuError: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)22:38
Nightrosedoes anyone use a chess program here?22:39
DaSkreecha|wen: can we notify upstream at least?22:39
Nightrosewould be nice to get an opinion from someone who actually play chess22:39
apacheloggerknights is dead22:39
a|wenDaSkreech: i can do that22:39
apacheloggerlike _completely_22:39
Nightrosehehe ok22:39
apacheloggerlast release was some pre-release in 200522:39
apacheloggerkeeping it around would only delay the unavoidable22:40
nixternalyo yo22:40
a|wenand we are shipping staple from 2003 patched up22:40
Nightroseyo yo Nicke_22:40
alleeJauntyThe jaunty announcement should mention the list of removed kde3 only apps IMHO22:40
ScottKIt won't get any more broken if we remove it22:40
Nightrosenixternal even22:40
nixternalya, at work...only check IRC like once in a blue moon22:40
ScottKUbuntu popcon data for nateon is nateon                           274    18   241    14     122:40
* nixternal goes back away from IRC22:40
apacheloggerfor nateon I propose: talk to upstream => if no KDE 4 in sight, but planed => _try_ patching; if no KDE 4 version planed => drop it22:41
Tonio_we can package this :)22:41
apacheloggerif patching fails arts just needs to stick around a bit longer22:41
a|wenTonio_: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=tagua22:41
apacheloggerTonio_: as agenda says it is already in debian/experimental ;-)22:41
DaSkreechnixternal: needed a vote from you is all22:41
Tonio_apachelogger: oups...22:41
a|wenand it actually works pretty well22:41
DaSkreechTagua is a bit dead as I recall But can be massaged22:41
ScottKThere is a pidgin-nateon that's substanitally more popular than nateon22:42
DaSkreechProd Kopete :)22:42
Riddellindeed, those koreans should really just write a plugin for kopete22:42
DaSkreechI'm assuming it doesn't use a libnateon ?22:42
DaSkreechYeah make some contact with the Korean KDErs22:43
RiddellI propose we drop it and just notify upstream and kde-kr22:43
JontheEchidnac-c-c-c-combo breaker!22:44
a|wenso nateon dies ... and knights as well22:45
RiddellI feel that suppestion speaks to our condition22:45
ScottKCan I piggy back on this we drop kita2 also?  It's a Japanese IM app with even lower popcon than nateon.22:45
Riddella|wen: poke me after the meeting I'll do the removal22:45
a|wenRiddell: i'll do that22:45
ScottKIt's the last remaining rdepend for the KDE bindings22:45
RiddellScottK: what does it use?22:45
ScottKI forget which one22:45
nixternalDaSkreech: a vote on what?22:45
DaSkreechand arts22:45
ScottKOne of the ruby ones I thikn22:45
RiddellScottK: ah yes, Japan, it would :)22:46
RiddellScottK: I agree, I don't think we should support ruby-kde3 any more22:46
DaSkreechnixternal: kpackagekit as is or kpackagekit with UI changes or kpacakgekit with conffile fixes22:46
apachelogger<3 japan22:46
apacheloggerScottK: yes, ruby it is22:46
Riddelllet's move on22:46
RiddellArby has a point on s-c-p-k22:46
nixternalDaSkreech: #2 and #3 :)22:46
Arbybasically this is about getting it ready for jaunty22:47
nixternalif #3 is complete that is fine, but don't ship a piece of junk22:47
Arbywhat we absolutely need to have22:47
* nixternal goes back to work, call me if you need me from this point on :) 22:47
DaSkreechnixternal: with a proposal for fixage of course. You can do that once off work :)22:47
Arbywhat is nice to have22:47
seelenixternal: when do you get off work? you've just created a council meeting :P22:47
Arbythis is a list of features listed in the readme as still missing and where I've got to with them22:48
nixternalI should be getting off work soon, but I am whicked busy, probably not for a few hours22:48
Arbycurrently I have 2 branches on the go22:48
Tonio_Lure: your point :)22:48
Arbystand alone lp:~rbirnie/system-config-printer/new_ui22:48
seeleok, ping us when you get in22:48
Arbysystemsettings module lp:~kubuntu-members/system-config-printer/kcm-scpk22:48
JontheEchidnaoh, that looks familiar22:48
Arbyso the first question is22:48
Arbydo we want to go with the standalone version again or push to get it into systemsettings?22:49
Luredigikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)22:49
Arbythe standalone version works reasonably well22:49
seeleArby: i would like to see it in systemsettings but will it be much work?22:49
JontheEchidnaArby: pretty much the only thing keeping it from SS is that crash, right?22:49
Tonio_Lure: sorry one still pending point :)22:49
JontheEchidnaas far as we know22:49
RiddellI hope to look at system settings intgration tomorrow22:49
Tonio_Arby: I'm all for systemsettings on my side22:49
LureI think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now22:49
ArbyJontheEchidna: that crash and the class inheritance22:50
ArbyRiddell: that would be great22:50
Lurebut kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)22:50
Arbyif we're going to get into systemsettings I'll need help22:50
Tonio_Lure: !! still discussing the printer stuff !! :)22:50
ArbyI'm in over my head there :)22:50
LureTonio_: I see... ;-)22:50
JontheEchidnaRiddell: we have both spckde and jockey somewhat there, but they both crash when they try to do dbus-y things22:50
Arbyit breaks in ways I don't begin to understan22:51
JontheEchidnathat too22:51
Riddellhmm, right, dbus22:51
seelewhat is spckde?22:51
Arbyit really needs a shorter name22:51
seeleah letters were in the wrong order there :)22:51
DaSkreechscpk ?22:51
Tonio_Arby: kdeprint ?22:51
DaSkreechthat's so 9 years ago22:52
* Tonio_ hides22:52
Tonio_but why not in fact... kdeprint old fashion is dead, so.......22:52
seeledo we know why dbus is causing it to crash?22:52
seeleand are waiting for a patch?22:52
seeleor does someone have to look in to it?22:52
Riddellseele: no but I'll look at it tomorrow22:52
Arbyso we're agreed we want it in system settings, good22:52
seelesystem settings contains everything so i'd like it in there22:53
JontheEchidnaif possible22:53
Arbynext which features do we absolutely need and which are nice to have?22:53
ArbyI pasted a list up there ^^22:53
seelein the future we'll eventually need to address some of the utlities, but that wont be until jaunty+1/4.422:53
apacheloggerArby: smb integration is pretty important for business use cases I suppose22:53
DaSkreechSystemsettings needs love22:53
Arbyapachelogger: that would be my biggest concern22:54
Arbybut again help needed22:54
RiddellArby: driver download isn't a priority, I don't think there's any drivers to download22:54
seeleSMB is lowest priority imo22:54
Arbyif anybody who has a working samba printer could test it that would be good22:54
a|weni'd say a printer options page22:54
seeleaccess control page.. i think that could be low priority too, but other people might not agree22:54
a|wenis the most important22:55
seeleyes, printer options page seems like the most reasonable and most useful22:55
Tonio_Arby: I can test at work, no problem22:55
apacheloggerArby: me too22:55
Arbyseele: well access control is mostly done, needs testing22:55
apacheloggerloads of smb printers there :D22:55
seeleArby: oh in that case.. :)22:55
ArbyTonio_: apachelogger that would be great22:55
RiddellI'll have a go at starting the options page tomorrow then22:55
Tonio_Arby: I'll make a test tomorrow morning and will let you know :)22:56
Arbyapachelogger: Tonio_ I'll have to commit what I've got locally first to make it worthwhile22:56
ArbyI'll do it after the meeting22:56
Tonio_Arby: please ping when ready so that we can test then :)22:56
Arbyso, in summary22:57
Arbysystemsettings integration and a job options page required for jaunty22:57
JontheEchidnaif it was working, jockey would have the full functionality of the standalone kde and gtk clients22:57
Arbyaccess control and samba browsing, nice to have22:57
Arbyas a general point, any and all testing would be appreciated :)22:58
yuriysmb browsing would be nice22:58
ArbyI'll try to put a package together soon and stick it in a ppa22:58
* seele tries to stay away for technical talk..22:59
a|wen+1 to that as well :)22:59
Arbyyuriy: it will arrive at somepoint :)22:59
seeleprinting yes +1 yay22:59
Tonio_Arby: is lan browsing on the long term plans ?22:59
Arbyseele: if you wouldn't mind taking another look at the ui would be nice23:00
Tonio_Arby: that's something I really loved with kdeprint....23:00
* apachelogger grabs the whip23:00
apacheloggerlets move on :P23:00
ArbyTonio_: haven't thought about it yet :)23:00
seeleArby: sure.. send me screenshots.. i dont have jaunty set up anywhere atm23:00
RiddellLure's item next23:00
Luredigikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)?23:00
Arbyseele:  will do23:00
LureI think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now23:00
Lurebut kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)23:00
Tonio_Arby: pretty usefull in corp environment :) but certainly not a priority, so for the long term maybe ;)23:00
RiddellLure: just needs MIRs for those new dependencies23:00
DaSkreechIs kipi up to task for KDE4?23:01
LureRiddell: new deps need to get in archive first ;-)23:01
Tonio_+1000 for kipi-plugins23:01
Tonio_DaSkreech: yup23:01
apacheloggerkipi main23:01
apacheloggerkipi on cd (improves gwenview as well)23:01
alleeJauntyTonio_: browsing/scanning should be done via avahi.23:01
apacheloggerdigikam main23:01
RiddellLure: are you able to package them or are you looking for volunteers to do it?23:01
DaSkreechapachelogger: I thought we were trying to save space :-P23:01
apacheloggerdigikam on CD (if possible spacewise)23:01
* JontheEchidna shovels out driveway23:01
Lurelensfun is in Debian NEW, so I can just do 0ubuntu1 upload23:02
apacheloggerDaSkreech: kipi is not that big is it?23:02
Tonio_alleeJaunty: requires zeroconf, not the same than scanning for an entire subnet on a specific port, imho23:02
Lureopencv needs packaging and help would be great (I am a bit rusty with new packages ;-))23:02
apacheloggerTonio_: what size does the almighty kipi-plugins package have?23:02
RiddellLure: go for it23:02
Tonio_apachelogger: 4MB23:02
apacheloggerthat should fit on the CD I suppose ;-)23:02
Tonio_apachelogger: we also have to consider new libs coming with it :)23:03
DaSkreech4 megs is Huuuuuuuge :)23:03
apacheloggerDaSkreech: look at ooo :P23:03
a|wenif we get all the kde3 stuff to go away23:03
Tonio_DaSkreech: nothing compared to crap OOo... :)23:03
LureRiddell: so no MIR needed for digikam/kipi-plugins, just for new depends?23:03
DaSkreechYeah I know but Koffice isn't quite Killer yet23:03
RiddellLure: correct23:03
LureRiddell: then we can move them now (can you do it)? then we just take care for new deps later (when accepted in archive)23:04
DaSkreechwe could ship Abiword >_<23:04
Lurewe can start seeding kipi-plugins23:04
RiddellLure: can do23:04
seeleDaSkreech: ...23:04
Tonio_talking about digikam, it i to me a basic feature to be able to download cameras photos by default....23:04
Tonio_even windows xp does it...23:04
DaSkreechI keeed I keeeed23:04
DaSkreechTonio_: digikampart?23:04
Tonio_as long as technically possible, I think we shoul ship with digikam23:04
LureTonio_: gwenview does not have this?23:04
DaSkreechDoes camera:/ still work ?23:04
Tonio_Lure: not that I know of......23:05
* Lure cannot recall23:05
Tonio_well, mass storage works, but not pptp23:05
Tonio_and lots of cameras are set to pptp only or by default23:05
DaSkreechIs that an upstream issue?23:05
Tonio_DaSkreech: no simply gwenview isn't designed for that yet23:05
a|wencamera:// still exists23:05
apacheloggerwell ... photography seems to be a popular hobby these days ... so we should stuff digikam on the CD if we have enough space left23:05
Nightrosemine and seele's cameras don't work in intrepid - major pita :/23:05
Tonio_do people know about camera:// ?23:06
apachelogger+1 on improved digikam handling23:06
DaSkreechI don't think that gwenview is supposed to do that at all23:06
apachelogger*digicam even :P23:06
a|wenTonio_: possibly not though23:06
apacheloggerDaSkreech: KDE should23:06
Tonio_Lure: is the viewer in the same package ? if so we should split not to dupe gwenview23:06
yuriydigikam on the cd if possible would be great23:06
Tonio_a|wen: :)23:06
yuriyit's one of the killer apps imo23:07
LureTonio_: showfoto is in separate package, but it is very small23:07
Tonio_Lure: ok... what are the doc size ?23:07
LureTonio_: no kde4 doc yet, but in the works23:07
Tonio_Lure: okay23:07
LureTonio_: and it is separate package, afair23:07
Tonio_Lure: and what is the packge size ?23:07
LureTonio_: 10 MB23:08
Lure+ depends23:08
Tonio_Riddell: one we get k3b in we can get rid of kdelibs4 right ?23:08
Riddellopenoffice needs to drop it to23:08
Riddellno KDE file open dialogue23:08
alleeJauntyTonio_: showfoto is the worst name ever.  Editfoto would be much better for what the app is designed for23:08
Tonio_Riddell: yeah :( can't wait to ship with koffice2..... maybe one day...23:09
Tonio_alleeJaunty: true that :)23:09
ScottKCan that be like the java stuff where all the depends aren't shipped by default but if install it it works23:09
DaSkreechI almost recall reading an artcle that said that you could get OO.o to use the KDE file dialog23:09
LureRiddell: just drop it - kde3 is new gnome - we do not want it anymore ;-)23:09
ScottKThat being the ooo stuff23:09
RiddellScottK: I don't know23:09
apacheloggerLure: lol23:09
Riddellbut it can keep the crystal icons and Qt widgets ,just no file open dialogue23:09
Tonio_Riddell: kdelibs4c2a is 10MB = digikam23:09
yuriyI don't know if the kde integration is useful in OOo if it's kde323:10
Riddellno KDE file open dialgoue23:10
Tonio_Riddell: considering digikam in that case looks possible right ?23:10
Riddellyes, let's ask calc if he can look into dropping kdelibs from openoffice23:10
yuriyit's extra confusing even, to have the completely separate set of bookmarks there23:10
DaSkreechyuriy: good point23:10
Tonio_Riddell: OOo depends on kde3... hum... I forgot that part.... sorry23:11
Tonio_Riddell: I was all at konversation/k3b replacement23:11
RiddellACTION: move digikam and kipi to main, add to CDs, ask calc to drop kdelibs from openoffice23:11
DaSkreechWhat's a k3b replacement?23:11
Riddelltrueg says he's going to get k3b back into shape23:11
LureDaSkreech: wodim23:11
* Lure hides23:11
DaSkreech Sebastian is back in KDE swing would it be possibly to have a discussion to see a timeline for K3b 4 KDE4 ?23:12
Tonio_Riddell: is OOo depending on kde3 or 4 libs right now ?23:12
LureTonio_: kde323:12
Tonio_Lure: okay23:12
DaSkreechThere is a K3B KDE4 beta right ?23:12
* ScottK needs to run.23:12
Riddelllet's move on23:12
LureDaSkreech: yes: does not work for me, but Tonio_ has some success23:12
DaSkreechok I'm fine with that23:13
ScottKNo opinion on KGet or Kopete tabs, but I do want stickers.23:13
Tonio_DaSkreech: packaging in the work on my side, tests are not that good on the dvd side :)23:13
RiddellTonio_ wants to discuss kget23:13
Tonio_I personnaly consider ktorrent UI a nightmare23:13
Tonio_and I pretty love kget as a download manager for konqueror23:13
Tonio_is integrates like a charm23:13
* Nightrose likes ktorrent tbh23:13
DaSkreechI haven't used kget for torrents I'll assume the UI isn't a dream though23:13
RiddellI like KDE's normal downloads23:14
Tonio_DaSkreech: bah UI is a standard download manager UI :)23:14
Tonio_simple and efficient23:14
Tonio_Riddell: yeah, but no pause, queue, restart and so on23:14
DaSkreechHow does it work feature wise?23:14
Tonio_Riddell: a download manager has a lot of advantages23:14
Riddellug, it still has that weird drop target thing in the middle of the screen23:14
Tonio_Riddell: is disabled by default23:14
Riddelljust popped up here23:15
Tonio_Riddell: just an option like with all download managers23:15
ScottKOK.  I do have an opinion about KGet.  I don't like that drop target thing either.23:15
ScottKSee you all.23:15
Tonio_Riddell: can make is off by default easilly23:15
Riddellhmm, yet another systray icon23:15
Tonio_Riddell: kget is very similar to any osx or windows standard download manager, and people are used to those softwares23:15
DaSkreechTonio_: plasmoid? :)23:15
NightroseTonio_: so what do you actually propose?23:15
yuriyI haven't used kget, but I never saw the point of it23:15
Tonio_Nightrose: to test kget and when people have an opinion rediscuss this :)23:16
apacheloggerTonio_: those are not individual apps23:16
* apachelogger doesn't like the concept of external download manager23:16
Nightrosethis being what?23:16
apacheloggerit's confusing23:16
Riddellcan't work out how to get it to start a torrent23:16
Tonio_apachelogger: well it's konqueror integration is really good23:16
Nightroseif kget by default?23:16
apacheloggerRiddell: just open one23:16
Nightrosereplacing ktorrent?23:16
apacheloggerTonio_: there is no integratoin23:16
Riddellapachelogger: how?23:16
apacheloggerRiddell: file - open I suppose?23:16
apacheloggerTonio_: konqui just throws the files at kget23:17
Tonio_apachelogger: hu ??23:17
Riddellapachelogger: there is no such option23:17
apacheloggerkget does with them whatever it wants23:17
apacheloggerso it is an external download manager and appears as independent app23:17
Tonio_apachelogger: that's the purpose of a download manager23:17
apacheloggerwhich in my opinion got limited use case and target audience23:17
Tonio_apachelogger: my browser can crash and my downloads are going fine...23:17
apacheloggerRiddell: no clue then23:17
yuriy-1 if it would take up extra CD space23:18
yuriyotherwise I'd have to try it23:18
DaSkreechyuriy: Well the point is to remove ktorrent23:18
apacheloggerTonio_: then the kio stuff should be fixed that the slaves are not bound to the konqueror instance but something more generic kded for example23:18
JontheEchidnakded dies whenever you update packages23:18
apacheloggerkdeinit then23:18
seeleso are there two things we're discussing? including kget and not including ktorrent?23:18
a|wenyuriy: seems you are gaining 6 mb by the change23:18
apacheloggerif that goes down you are boned anyway :P23:18
Riddelldoesn't sounds like anyone is convinced at kget23:19
Tonio_Riddell: just choose save as and kget gets the file23:19
RiddellI don't see the advantage for file downloads and it's not intuitive to me for torrent downloads23:20
apacheloggerRiddell, Tonio_: I think we should discuss this at next meeting .. giving people time to take a look at kget23:20
DaSkreechTonio_: I'll flip it what are the arguments for not including ktorrent ?23:20
Tonio_Riddell: I agree it's a different concept.... torrents are seen are standard downloads (opera does that too)23:20
seelei'm dubious that the file manager can provide the necessary information and functionality torrent users are used to23:20
Nightrose+1 seele23:20
yuriyTonio_: which actually sounds like a good idea to me for a default23:21
seeleit's not as simple as enabling a torrent and just letting it run23:21
a|wenbut i'd personally much rather have ktorrent ... seems more intuitive to me23:21
seeleyou care about having information about the seeds, which pieces youve downloaded, throttling, etc.23:21
Tonio_DaSkreech: well I'd like a download manger for konqueror, and since it also does torrents....23:21
seeleTonio_: i think we should evaluate kget as a download manager only23:21
seelenot as a replacement for ktorrent23:21
seeleif it happens to get included and it does torrents too.. good for it23:22
Tonio_seele: I don't care which pieces are downloaded as long as it's not finished... :)23:22
a|wen+1 seele23:22
NightroseTonio_: for videos it can matter23:22
Nightroseyou might be able to watch the beginning23:22
Tonio_seele: and I'm not that a fan of the search part of ktorrent, really confusing23:22
Tonio_Nightrose: that's a good point, indeed23:22
yuriyok tried out kget and i'm confused23:22
seelehow big is kget?23:23
Tonio_well, I propose people to try it as a download manager, and rediscus this next time23:23
yuriywhere is my download?23:23
JontheEchidna+1 on rediscuss23:23
a|wenseele: ~ 3,5M23:23
Tonio_about benefits of download malager and so on23:23
Tonio_yuriy: kget in the systray23:23
DaSkreechTonio_: how do I do plugins for Kget ?23:23
yuriyalso i prefer the plasma notification things over some extra window23:23
rgreeninghey. sry about being late. lappy issues23:24
yuriythe download manager that always pops up is one of the things I don't like about firefox23:24
apacheloggerrgreening: hola23:24
Tonio_yuriy: I agree on that point, but I think to remember that's on kget schedule23:24
jjesse+1 to yuriy23:24
Nightroseyuriy: you can use allinonesidebar for that23:24
Nightroseworks good for me23:24
RiddellI'll try kget for now but I'm sceptical23:24
jjessei had issues trying to download torretns with kget, and found ktorrent was just much easier23:24
Riddellwe should move on23:24
* apachelogger thinks the only sane approach to downloads is what google chrome does :P23:24
Tonio_I tend to agree my mother wouldn't need this kind of tool on the other hand23:25
RiddellTonio_: tabs in kopete?23:25
Tonio_Riddell: lots of people don't have super bandwidth23:25
Tonio_Riddell: consider they can download part of an iso every day for example, that can be usefull23:25
* DaSkreech likes tabs. I don't know Ubuntu guidelines or KDE HIB well enough.23:25
Tonio_let's move on23:25
Tonio_it was discussed and decided in the past to activate tabs in kopete by default23:25
jjessewhat's next on the agenda?23:25
Tonio_so I did again with kde423:25
Riddelltabs in kopete23:25
Tonio_but I received criticisms :)23:26
DaSkreechjjesse: tabs in Kopete23:26
* Nightrose uses tabs in kopeet23:26
jjesseah wasn't paying attention23:26
seeleas opposed to opening new chats in separate windows?23:26
DaSkreechAny examples of critique ?23:26
a|wenseele: yes23:26
yuriymy 2c - I don't use tabs in pidgin23:26
Nightroseseele: jep23:26
Tonio_DaSkreech: that sucks !!23:26
Tonio_kind of things like that :)23:26
DaSkreechTonio_: That's what I thought23:26
Tonio_strange since nobody complained with kde3.... but that's it :)23:26
Tonio_DaSkreech: yep ;)23:26
seelewhat is the kopete default?23:26
DaSkreechTonio_: I propose that it's turned off for the betas and see what the response it23:26
seeleupstream default23:27
Tonio_seele: no tabs23:27
a|wenseele: 1 chat 1 window23:27
apacheloggerseele: new window per chat23:27
DaSkreechNo tabs23:27
Tonio_seele: but that's very msn....23:27
RiddellI can't get it to do tabs23:27
DaSkreechI currently have it grouped by protocol which Seems to give me management as well as sanity23:27
a|wen+1 for tabs here23:27
Tonio_seele: most IM do have tabs by default23:27
JontheEchidna+1 for keeping tabs23:27
a|wenRiddell: it is under behaviour23:27
DaSkreechHow about we turn it off for the betas and see the response23:28
a|wen(the option placement is pretty counter-intuitive imo)23:28
apacheloggerhaving used the tab approach I have the feeling it gets in my way most of the time, though I am not exactly much of a im user anyway :)23:28
rgreeningKDE has tabs by dfalt in most apps, +1 for being consistant23:28
DaSkreech I'm thinking that the people who don't like tabs are being vocal but the majority do like it23:28
seeleDaSkreech: that doesnt guarantee we will see a response23:28
apacheloggerDaSkreech: we had it turned off for intrepid23:28
Tonio_a|wen: yep, very bad to set :)23:28
seeleDaSkreech: and if they are upgrades, then the previous settings will hold23:28
DaSkreechseele: I know but I'm betting we will23:28
apacheloggerDaSkreech: and did recive _no_ whatsoever response23:28
apacheloggerlike no one noticed the tabs were gone :P23:28
DaSkreechapachelogger: So people didn't say anything about not having tabs but were quite vocal about having them?23:29
Tonio_seele: hum no since that's in KDS, so changing must change for most people, but as you said, they may just not complain23:29
apacheloggerDaSkreech: yes23:29
DaSkreechThat's interesting23:29
DaSkreechI would guess no tabs then23:30
Tonio_DaSkreech: a couple did, including you :) not the all earth came to me complaining :)23:30
apacheloggerwell, the amount of feedback is not really something to bind a decision on IMHO23:30
DaSkreechapachelogger: and this was without window grouping ?23:30
* yuriy thinks a forum poll would be nice23:30
Tonio_my point is that most kde apps have tabs23:30
JontheEchidnaconsistency ftw23:30
seeleyes they do23:30
Tonio_most IM have tabs by default (pidgin, adium on osx, trillian on windows, YIM....)23:30
DaSkreechTonio_: I agree that tabs are better for many reasons23:30
JontheEchidnagnome3 is all about tabs anyway :P23:30
Tonio_no tabs is the very msn way to work, only23:30
DaSkreechbut if people freak outat them ...:-/23:30
Tonio_DaSkreech: our users are used to them for 3 years now :)23:31
DaSkreechJontheEchidna: by the end of Gran Canria We will have clocks with tabs on them23:31
Tonio_and msn users..... still use msn on windows :)23:31
Riddellooh I think I got it working23:31
DaSkreechHa ha :)23:31
Tonio_Riddell: what ? msn ? :)23:31
Nightroseso who is for keeping tabs?23:31
Tonio_Riddell: AH !23:31
Lure+1 for tabs23:31
* Nightrose is23:31
JontheEchidna+1 for tabs23:31
a|wen+1 for tabs23:31
Tonio_+1 for tabs23:31
seele+1 tabs23:31
DaSkreechI'm for it in principle23:32
Riddellit still has two windows though which seems to lose the point23:32
alleeJaunty+1 for tabs23:32
DaSkreechRiddell: Buddy list doesn't cont :-P23:32
Tonio_Riddell: the contact one and the chat one, as it always used to :)23:32
seeleRiddell: kopete is a service app, the main window disappears23:32
apacheloggerRiddell: better than 5 I supppose ;-)23:32
LureRiddell: ++ on that - would also like to have main window as tab23:32
Riddellok we seem to be in favour of tabs23:32
Riddellwhat's next23:33
Riddellrickspencer3 wanted to say hi23:33
Lurerickspencer3: hi!23:33
Nightrosehi rickspencer323:33
seelethat's a strange way of saying hello23:33
DaSkreechLure: Eh? buddy lista as a tab?23:33
a|wenhi rickspencer323:33
* seele waves23:33
seelegreeting by proxy23:33
Riddellrickspencer3 is the new manager of Canonical's desktop team23:33
LureDaSkreech: I would love it, but it is not available23:33
rickspencer3seele: I was waiting my turn23:34
DaSkreechLure: this is KDE there must be a checkbox somewhere :)23:34
seelerickspencer3: we're not as organized in our meetings as yours23:34
rickspencer3I'll be pushier next time ;)23:34
Nightrosetell us a little about yourself rickspencer3?23:34
DaSkreechLure: actaully Kopete buddy list is KDE3 might be an issue23:34
rickspencer3well, this is like my 8th week at Canonical23:34
* apachelogger kicks DaSkreech23:34
rickspencer3So I'm still learning the ropes here23:34
jjessethere are no ropes here23:34
rickspencer3my background in software started with usability, before I got into program management and then engineering management23:35
* DaSkreech puts a sticker on the footprint23:35
Nightrosewelcome then :)23:35
rickspencer3I'm just psyched about the job, and want to learn as much as I can about Kubuntu now23:35
Nightrosehehe good start23:36
jjesseall you need to know is it is the best23:36
rickspencer3It's really a remarkable community and an awesome product23:36
* DaSkreech prods nixternal to provide docs23:36
Riddellso if people have question or comments about stuff canonical is doing, rick is a good chap to go to23:36
Tonio_rickspencer3: :)23:36
* DaSkreech does23:36
DaSkreechbut post stickers23:36
rickspencer3Hi Tonio_, we met at UDS, no?23:36
Tonio_rickspencer3: absolutly :)23:36
rickspencer3same with seele, I believe23:36
* jjesse thinks it is a good idea DaSkreech didn't rmeember he does docs for kubuntu as well23:36
seelerickspencer3: i was definitely there23:36
jjessei was there as well23:36
rickspencer3very nice23:36
Tonio_rickspencer3: nice to see your real interest in kde and kubuntu :)23:37
* Nightrose wasn't there :(23:37
* JontheEchidna wasn't at UDS sadly :(23:37
DaSkreechjjesse: I did but I blame nixternal23:37
* nhandler wasn't there23:37
Riddellas was nixternal and rgreening23:37
RiddellNightrose, JontheEchidna: next time!23:37
rickspencer3that was my first week at Canonical, so I kind of blocked out most of it :)23:37
jjessethat's another rickspencer3 needs to learn, "when in doubt blame nixternal "23:37
rickspencer3but I mostly blame nixternal for that23:37
Nightroseyou leran quickly rickspencer3 ;-)23:37
ubottuOh no!  The pointy-clicky Windows7 lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, and help on the MIRC client too! <nixternal> I LOVE MIRC!!!23:38
jjesseawesome, changed it to windows723:38
Riddelllast agenda item is about stickers23:38
* jjesse cackles23:38
Nightrosesinde when does he do mirc?23:38
seelethanks rickspencer323:38
yuriyfor those interested in tabs stats: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=105345023:38
* nhandler wants a sticker23:38
yuriyso, stickers?23:38
Tonio_JontheEchidna: I'm probably a bigger windows lover than nixternal will ever be ;)23:38
yuriywhat sort of stickers are we talking about?23:38
DaSkreechI have no clue what this is about but +4.2 stickers23:39
* Lure wants stickers for new thinkpad I get in 2 weeks23:39
* apachelogger hands rickspencer3 a basket filled with welcome cookies23:39
Tonio_JontheEchidna: and that's not a joke :)23:39
Riddellthe marketing chap at Canonical says he can send out stickers to active Kubuntu people as a wee thank you23:39
Riddellthe stickers are on shop.canonical.com23:39
rgreeningkubu stickers == awesum23:39
DaSkreechTonio_: You are? I blame nixternal for that23:39
Riddellso e-mail me your postal address with STICKER in the header and I'll pass that on23:39
* rickspencer3 slides a cookie out, slides basket under desk without sharing23:39
seelerickspencer3 is now uninvited!23:39
Tonio_DaSkreech: haha, I used to be a microsoft MCSE and active directory sysadmin :) I still use windows xp/vista and 7 too :)23:39
apacheloggerno worries23:39
* apachelogger bot tons of cookies today23:40
jjesseyay i want me a sticker23:40
yuriythese? http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=41823:40
alleeJauntyrickspencer3: when there is backend + gnome/kde frontend, is it one of your task to organize that both frontends get the same love?23:40
Arbywoo stickers :)23:40
Nightrosestickers rock23:40
* a|wen is all for stickers23:40
Tonio_same with me, all +1 for the stickers :)23:40
rickspencer3alleeJaunty: deep question23:41
* nhandler sent his email23:41
Riddellyuriy: yes23:41
yuriyanother thing on stickers23:41
* DaSkreech rolls in stickers and nomnomnoms cookies23:41
yuriyI don't know what the plans are currently on reviving the aluminum case badge project23:41
apacheloggerRiddell: what mail address should we send to?23:41
yuriybut for if and when that happens23:41
Riddellapachelogger: jriddell@ubuntu .com23:41
jjesseall of them23:41
yuriyI'd like to know if there is significant interest in kubuntu ones23:41
JontheEchidnaquassel just memleak'd on me :(23:42
jjessei want23:42
JontheEchidna40% of 640 MB23:42
alleeJauntyrickspencer3: yeah, we miss someone that keeps an eye on all desktop flavours ;)23:42
apacheloggerEgS: ^23:42
Arbyyuriy +1 from me on case badges23:42
apacheloggerEgS: go fix your code :P23:42
nhandlerRiddell: I sent to whatever address the Contact this User feature on LP used23:42
yuriyso if your LoCo is interested, please email me23:42
LureRiddell: jr@kubuntu.org also works, right?23:43
yuriywe need a large order in order for it to be worth it and to get the price down23:43
RiddellLure: I belive so23:43
Riddellany other agenda items?23:43
yuriylarge order as in thousands23:43
apacheloggerblizzz: read what yuriy said?23:43
apacheloggerRiddell: oh, yes, I think23:43
DaSkreechPepper rickspencer3 ?23:43
RiddellI'm in berlin next week at the canonical team sprint, so probably not around as much in the evenings as usual23:44
blizzzapachelogger: i? when?23:44
DaSkreechrickspencer3: You are the manager of the Desktop Team?23:44
apacheloggerblizzz: backlog23:44
rickspencer3DaSkreech: yes23:44
DaSkreechWhat is the objective of the Desktop Team ?23:44
RiddellDaSkreech: the Canonical Desktop Team (as opposed to Ubuntu one)23:44
rickspencer3I'm sure Riddell shudders every time he hears me say it too23:44
Lurerickspencer3: like "a boss of Riddell"?23:44
Lurerickspencer3: then we have to talk...23:45
* Lure hides23:45
yuriyok, i'm off23:45
DaSkreechbye yuriy23:45
seele'night yuriy23:45
nhandlerBye yuriy23:45
Tonio_Lure: haha :)23:45
apacheloggerone thing: _EVERYONE_ who isn't native english speaker pretty pretty please install Jaunty (if you install Jaunty) in your native language!23:45
Riddellrickspencer3 isn't the technical lead by the way so don't go baffling him with code questions23:45
DaSkreechGet a cookie23:45
Riddellapachelogger: good idea23:45
DaSkreechNo no code questions :)23:45
rickspencer3feel free to ask me coding questions, I'm sure I can give you wrong information23:45
DaSkreechJust wanted to get a handle for what he's managing23:45
blizzzapachelogger: what is aluminum case badge? however, since our target is becoming loco...23:45
apacheloggerI will upload 4.2.0's l10n packages within the next 2 days, so they will be in the next language pack updates23:46
apacheloggerWe should prevent issues like the ones we had with intrepid at all costs23:46
Riddellmeeting over I think, thanks all, back to #kubuntu-devel23:46
* Nightrose waves23:46
Riddellblizzz: that was yuriy's thing23:47
rickspencer3DaSkreech: I didn't want to blow off your question, we can hop on #kubuntu-devel ofr a few minutes23:47
rickspencer3if you want23:47
blizzzyuriy: same question on you23:47
alleeJauntyrickspencer3: see you there23:47

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