=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn === Mamarok_ is now known as Mamarok === asac_ is now known as asac === davmor2 is now known as davmor2-away === davmor2-away is now known as davmor2 === _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde [16:00] #startmeeting [16:00] Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew. [16:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:00] hey Mooty...what's up? [16:00] lol [16:00] * mvo waves [16:01] hi [16:01] greetings [16:02] robbiew: I haven't set you my activity summary yet, sorry [16:02] no worries...you aren't alone ;) [16:03] here [16:03] james_w? [16:04] hi! [16:04] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0128#Agenda [16:04] liw is out....doko? [16:04] morning [16:05] ok...can get started [16:05] here [16:05] has everyone gotten a chance to post and/or comment on the distro sprint team agenda? [16:05] == Sponsorship == [16:05] * missed this week; will do double-duty next week [16:05] == Misc == [16:06] gar damn mouse [16:06] http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations [16:06] LINK received: http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations [16:06] slangasek: no worries :) [16:06] "cruft remover/update-manager quirks code merge coding session [liw, mvo] " [16:07] this will obviously not happen...at least in person [16:07] oh, is liw not going to be in Berlin either? :( [16:07] robbiew: yes, I've added a few bits [16:07] What still needs to be done for GRUB UUID support? [16:07] liw injured his back [16:07] :-( [16:07] is liw ok? [16:07] yes, added [16:07] out of curiosity [16:07] Keybuk: yes [16:08] evand: it locates the root filesystem using UUIDs; but it doesn't locate its own stage1.5 that way [16:08] Keybuk: drugged and resting [16:08] :( poor liw [16:08] right, apologies you mentioned that before [16:08] which I believe is the last remaining piece until grub no longer really cares about drive order [16:08] I was reminded about this by a rather inflammatory forums thread recently, and we really ought to clear it up [16:09] indeed [16:09] do send my regards to liw if you're speaking with him [16:09] there's also a cross-team agenda [16:09] http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda [16:09] LINK received: http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda [16:09] cjwatson: will do [16:09] * Keybuk spent an entertaining hour dealing with GRUB being unable to find stage 2 (I think) the other day [16:09] I didn't really put much on the global agenda...dendrobates should be updating with an EC2 demo [16:10] in any case, we're roomies...so I can drag him into our room if needed :P [16:10] Keybuk: it was mentioned that perhaps we do an overview of boot performance work...interested? [16:11] I didn't agree to it, or anything [16:11] maybe a rehearsal for FOSDEM presentation ;) [16:12] robbiew: sure [16:12] cool...I'll let randa know [16:12] * robbiew has a presentation! whew [16:12] lol [16:13] moving along...Feature Status [16:13] http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04 [16:13] LINK received: http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04 [16:13] * Keybuk must finish his fosdem presentation [16:13] need Specs at least ready for Review by this Friday [16:13] robbiew: my spec is ready for Review ;) [16:13] if you don't think you can make it...let me know [16:14] also, would like to know when you expect to deliver [16:14] i.e. which milestone [16:15] my specs will be there [16:15] as dubious as that might seem at the moment :-) [16:15] ok, thnx [16:15] lol [16:15] robbiew: I guess I'll finish the last major changes for beta [16:15] Keybuk: okay [16:16] next is the usual [16:16] bugs...bugs...bugs [16:16] 9 bugs for Alpha 4...nice [16:17] I may supplement those numbers before Friday, yet [16:17] :) [16:17] heh [16:17] figured [16:17] nice work on the buglist...everything under Foundations has an assignee [16:17] except [16:18] 78552 [16:18] http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552 [16:18] LINK received: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552 [16:18] Launchpad bug 78552 in grub "/sbin/update-grub complains about being run instead of /usr/sbin/update-grub" [Undecided,Confirmed] [16:18] I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint :) [16:19] see, this is why warnings are pointless ;) [16:19] you should just break things and move on [16:19] heh [16:19] or, in the case of update-grub, leave it alone since it was just fine where it was ;-) [16:19] well, yes, it does surprise me that it's not in /sbin [16:20] in that case the warning is silly because it discourages being called based on $PATH [16:20] I think it was because it used something in /usr [16:20] oh, I know [16:20] awk [16:20] anyway the move discussion was incredibly tedious and I have no wish to repeat it, but anyone could hoover up the warning; I think there might have been a relevant unmerged change in Debian, even [16:22] it's just a warning, right? [16:22] I mean...does anything actually break? [16:22] the reason the warning there is because they wanted to eventually move the script out of /sbin [16:23] ah [16:23] so Debian's plan is to eventually make /sbin/update-grub go away, and then the warning becomes an error on any systems still using it [16:23] right, in practice it false-positives on people with /sbin ahead of /usr/sbin in $PATH too though [16:23] and also /etc/kernel-img.conf hasn't got reliably upgraded [16:23] so there is *some* genuine cleanup to do [16:24] right; if /etc/kernel-img.conf were reliably upgrading there shouldn't have been a need for a warning in the first place :) [16:24] but the cost of leaving it there is approximately nil so meh. I think it's just on the list because it's annoying [16:24] Yay. Seems OpenOffice wants to crash whenever I load the room list for the sprint, and orca is running... :S [16:25] cjwatson: so is this something the kernel team should address? [16:25] nah, it's pretty foundation-y [16:25] ok [16:25] is it? [16:25] grub is pretty kernel-y :) [16:25] Keybuk: like udev is? [16:25] they touched it last [16:25] I prefer my shell scripts to the kernel team's ;) [16:26] i.e., I'll take this bug if no one else is volunteering [16:26] kernel people think userspace is an annoying botherance - we wouldn't trust them with things like udev ;) [16:26] slangasek: thanks [16:26] slangasek: I thought colin and I agreed to look at it? [16:26] oh [16:26] :) [16:26] oh? I thought that was another bug # [16:27] "cjwatson: I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint " [16:27] Keybuk ^ [16:27] that's a different unassigned bug on the list [16:27] oh! [16:28] that's the "non-ASCII characters busted at console login" bug [16:28] I'm happy to do the update-grub fixing [16:28] if slangasek doesn't want to ;) [16:28] * robbiew lets slangasek and Keybuk fight over it ;) [16:28] we could PAIR PROGRAM! [16:28] nah, I'll take it, currently none of the other bugs on that list are mine [16:28] Keybuk: EXTREME POSIX SH [16:29] slangasek: thanks [16:29] Keybuk: uh overkill :P [16:29] Be sure to insert some design patterns into that code. [16:29] next is the Sponsorship Queue...our good friend :) [16:29] robbiew: sorry, flashback to my days on the launchpad team there [16:30] seems to be getting a little long [16:30] I did a double shift last week due to slacking the week before [16:30] I notice there are a lot of items lingering on the sponsorship queue that are patches for our Special Packages that core-dev don't have commit rights to [16:30] slangasek: oh? [16:31] Keybuk: mozilla, etc === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [16:31] yeah, now that I'm always checking bzr first, packages which I can't commit to really irritate me [16:32] I think my complaint about this at UDS was lost in the noise of the plenary :) [16:33] anyway [16:33] slangasek: dholbach seems to have returned ;) [16:33] heh [16:33] well that's all I really have for this meeting...Bad News is there [16:34] Good news...go Steve and everyone else who helped with 8.04.2 [16:34] whoohoo! :P [16:34] AOB? [16:34] Bad news: pitti and I are currently fighting with ext3 file recovery after a bit of an, er, incident on cocoplum [16:34] robbiew: how can I help? [16:34] For those who are interested, dmraid will likely be moved into mdadm at some point, or at least the dmraid metadata support will. [16:35] cjwatson: oh? [16:35] so the archive is currently at reduced functionality; we're well on our way to recovery though, and will deal with the backups that should have existed afterwards [16:35] Should we avoid uploads until further notice? [16:35] feel free to upload [16:35] ok [16:35] it just took out some of the auxiliary scripts [16:35] dholbach: slangasek had a remark about the sponsorship queue... [16:36] slangasek: OK? :) [16:36] dholbach: just mentioned your name...and to bring it up with you ;) [16:36] so as far as 8.04.2, we had a bit of bad news there as well and some packages from -proposed wound up going out the door - I'm in the process of trying to get all of those packages through the SRU process so we can re-snapshot [16:36] help with the SRU verification process would be appreciated [16:37] did you ever find out what went wrong there? [16:37] not with any certainty [16:38] debian-cd was changed back to enable PROPOSED again; I don't remember having done that [16:38] nor I [16:38] so either I did and forgot, or somebody else did and isn't fessing up, or something went wrong in a merge when the checkout was updated [16:39] are there logs for things like this [16:39] ? [16:39] you're using an SVN checkout? [16:39] bzr blame? [16:39] james_w: ugh no, bzr [16:39] evand: it was a local change that was never committed [16:40] ah, ouch [16:40] (because we toggle PROPOSED on and off throughout the point release cycle, I didn't bother committing) [16:40] in future we probably should, I guess [16:40] would give us that tracking [16:40] so us CD folks will just have to take collective blame in this case [16:40] or I can take all the blame for not having committed it :) [16:40] * robbiew avoids the "do we need an incident report" as...I think we don't ;) [16:41] slangasek: heh [16:41] technically, we didn't introduce any regressions in -updates :P [16:41] ok...so any "GOOD" news? [16:41] I got shirts :P [16:42] we're off to Berlin :-) [16:42] hmm...cold [16:42] yeeeeehaw! [16:42] but I suppose that's good [16:42] it's -2°C right now [16:42] * mvo shivers already [16:42] keeps the beer from getting warm ;) [16:42] #endmeeting [16:42] Meeting finished at 10:42. [16:42] Ok that is cold. [16:42] don't need that in the logs :P [16:42] thanks [16:43] thanks [16:43] heh :) [16:43] TheMuso has to change seasons! [16:43] thanks! [16:43] yeah... [16:43] why don't we hold the January sprint in Sydney next year? :) [16:43] thanks, all. :) [16:43] or the Bahamas [16:43] lol [16:43] thanks all [16:43] Ubuntu Off Shore [16:43] lol [16:44] we've still never had a sprint on the Isle of Man [16:46] UDS Sealand? [16:46] evand: they'll have the bandwidth :) [16:56] Hello [16:56] * ara_ waves [16:58] hello [16:58] hello everybody [16:58] hi [16:59] hi [17:00] hey everyone [17:00] let's start [17:00] #startmeeting [17:00] Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno. [17:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:01] \o/ [17:01] agenda as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings [17:01] * Wiki migration progress [17:02] schwuk: any word on getting the current pages copied over? [17:02] I've done some work to the initial layout and would like feed back on any hardware that I might of forgotten. Also if there are any other install methods I might of missed :) [17:02] heno: no - am chasing it up [17:04] davmor2: the actual HW test cases will be on sub-pages of that right? [17:05] Henrik Omma: Yes I just want to ensure that I haven't missed any HW for now [17:06] ok [17:07] we can always backfill [17:07] I'm wondering if install should be its own root, rather than in System? [17:08] Henrik Omma: Well the largest part of system is the installers so up to you [17:09] Henrik Omma: the only other things that I thought about putting in the are all the system effecting tools like add/remove synaptic etc [17:09] Let's do that then and leave System for system-level packages and system-integrity tests [17:10] okay I transfer them over tomorrow then [17:10] I agree, System for installers is a bit confusing. +1 [17:10] we should check for things like correct write permissions [17:10] davmor2: thanks [17:11] schwuk: look forward to seeing the new theme on there :) [17:11] any ETA? [17:12] schwuk: you can use the icon from here: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website [17:12] heno: imminently. Merged your changes and some borrowed from qa-website and the ubuntu wiki [17:12] s/borrowed/stolen ;-) [17:13] ara_: should we plan a testing day where we go through and test all the new cases on the wiki? [17:13] that should help us discover gaps etc [17:13] testing the tests :) [17:13] sure [17:13] when is a good time [17:13] how about mid november ;) [17:14] when the cases are ready? :) [17:14] it will also give us a useful checkpoint for the migration [17:14] let's try the week after the sprint? [17:15] davmor2: is that feasible? [17:15] davmor2: what do you think? [17:15] when's the sprint [17:15] next week [17:15] no [17:15] davmor2: when do you think the cases would be ready? [17:16] the 5th is alpha 4 so testing will take up a lot of time. Unless that date has changed [17:17] How can we help davmor2 with this? can we run a 2-hour migration-mini-sprint in Berlin? [17:17] don't see why not [17:17] heno: sure [17:17] great, sounds like fun! [17:18] heno, davmor2: if we do that, it would be better if davmor2 prepares a plan [17:18] I think we can get a reasonable ubuntu apps and install up by then but that might be about it. However after next week I can knuckle down with the test again [17:18] heno: so we get the most of those two hours [17:18] ara_: agreed [17:19] davmor2: can we have a quick planning call tomorrow? [17:19] Henrik Omma: np's [17:19] ok, thanks for the updates [17:19] any other meeting business? [17:20] the ubuntu-qa-tools package is in REVU now [17:20] cool! [17:21] if you want your fancy script to be added to the package before is too late, send it to me [17:21] let's make sure we get someone to review it last week [17:21] heno: dholbach and mok0 are already reviewing it [17:22] excellent [17:23] Next week most of us will be at a sprint in Berlin [17:23] (for those who did not know) [17:23] we are? [17:23] :) [17:24] should we schedule a meeting for next week? [17:24] I am too now :) [17:24] a public IRC and/or voice meeting that is [17:24] Voice might be fun as most of you will be there won't you? [17:25] heno: a public voice meeting might not be a bad idea. IRC seems a bit like overkill considering participation [17:25] (e do actually have some in-person meetings scheduled already) [17:25] phone/skype/ekiga? [17:25] skype works so that might be the best idea :) [17:26] ok - I'll make sure to bring a mic and speakers [17:28] let's wrap up the meeting [17:28] remember compiz bug day tomorrow! [17:28] #endmeeting [17:28] Meeting finished at 11:28. [17:29] thanks! [17:29] Thanks [17:29] bye! [18:51] <\l> Technoviking, ping === \l is now known as licio [22:00] good evening friends [22:00] how are we enjoying KDE 4.2? [22:00] o/ [22:00] Humpalicious [22:01] \o [22:01] * ScottK is sticking with 4.1.4 until we get the SRU through. [22:01] Good 4.3 appetizer :) [22:01] Riddell: big time! [22:01] ^lol [22:01] * Nightrose waves [22:01] :) [22:01] very much sir [22:01] hello [22:01] ;-) [22:01] howdy [22:01] * DaSkreech throws himself off a cliff and lands on Nightrose [22:01] is anyone here for membership? [22:02] DaSkreech: outsch :P [22:02] * jussi01 waves [22:02] I'm a cute puffy cloud the only ouches I have are from my electric personality [22:02] perfect time for LP to have scheduled down time [22:03] yeah [22:03] Hi [22:03] hehe [22:03] Yay seele [22:03] so i put the phone by my ear.. and didn't set the alarm [22:03] :-) [22:03] but i have a very loud text message [22:03] here i am! [22:03] * seele yawns [22:03] \o/ [22:03] * a|wen waves (a bit late as well) [22:03] a|wen: I uploaded your kdepim fix for 4.1.4. Waiting for it to be accepted ... [22:04] shall we start at the top of the agenda? [22:04] seele has an item about kpackagekit [22:04] thx ScottK [22:04] Is there a link for the agenda? [22:04] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings [22:04] Thanks [22:04] colomar and i reviewed kpackagekit [22:05] although (imo) it is still better than adept, it still has some problems [22:05] and there doesnt seem to be a maintainer for it who can fix them [22:05] also.. adept is now without a maintainer and i think there are still some open bugs about it? [22:05] about 45, including wishlist items [22:05] ScottK had mentioned some concerns regarding signed packages and security [22:05] and no help manual for adept [22:05] JontheEchidna: :) [22:06] and there is no interactive installation [22:06] so.. what should we do? [22:06] is adept shipping in Jackalope? [22:06] DaSkreech: that's what we're deciding [22:06] ...that is what we are here to decide [22:06] that's the question [22:06] ah ok [22:06] lol [22:06] *g* [22:06] my 2 cents : bet on the future, and the future is not adept [22:06] As far as my security concerns are, Adept and KPackageKit are equally broken. [22:07] yeah, we can always fall back on adept if kpackagekit falls through [22:07] I'm all for kpackagekit kit, I think we'll find people to work on it same as we did for adept when we had to [22:07] the general consensus from users is that they hate Adept :( [22:07] kpackagekit isn't perfect at all, but as you said, still better than adept, and since some other distros are gonna use it (fedora...) it'll not be abandonned [22:07] So adept doesn't care about package signatures either? [22:07] Comparing the two, I think the lack of dealing with connfile changes correctly is a significant issue [22:07] colomar: correct [22:07] ok.. so if we go with kpackagekit there is another issue. it only lists packages there is no "application" categorization [22:08] seele: as I remember rgreening volunteered to work on that for jaunty [22:08] do we have someone competent in C++ who wants to take a stab at extending the existing search for a new page of applications? [22:08] Riddell: ah hah! [22:08] at UDS [22:08] he's not here though is he [22:08] seele: the gnome one does, so there is probably a functionnality needed to be implemented [22:08] seele: but packagekit does it [22:08] seele: not right now but we just need to poke him to do it I think [22:08] also, search needs greatly improved.. the filters do not work in the right order [22:09] finally, there are some other minor ui tweaks which are important, but not as important as the former [22:09] I also read that the packagekit adept backend supports search in package descriptions, but the current kpackagekit doesn't [22:09] colomar: then that should be fairly easy to fix [22:09] Adept KDE4 was pretty broken [22:09] adept doesn't use packagekit [22:09] sorry [22:09] adept kde4 was hard to understand/use [22:09] kpackagekit , replacement for adept .. sounds interesting . The latest adept isn't much to my liking anyway . [22:09] DaSkreech: oh? [22:09] colomar: once again, packagekit supports that, but not kpackagekit, so it' probably not that hard to fix [22:09] I meant the apt backend [22:10] Tonio_: That's good [22:10] I just want debtags [22:10] The one thing Adept does to right is deal with conffile changes. [22:10] seele: are you're list of 'needs to be fixed' written down somewhere? [22:10] the MIR for packagekit is still outstanding, but asac and pitti said they'd look at them this week [22:10] Whatever gets me debtags I'm happy :) [22:10] allejaunty seele sent them to kubuntu-devel mailing list [22:10] * JontheEchidna goes to eat :( /me is for kpackagekit though [22:10] sorry no tab completion on this web client [22:10] * ScottK is against [22:10] alleeJaunty: yes, we have a review page on the kubuntu wiki. our working comments need to be cleaned up and then we will publish it [22:11] colomar: the thing is that for jaunty, kpackagekit will not be the same functionnality level than the gnome UI, but I have absolutly no doubt that'll change in the future, since other distros might consider using it [22:11] jjesse: i think he was talking about the kpackagekit review [22:11] ScottK: you are against kpackagekit? [22:11] Tonio_: Will it be usable? [22:11] DaSkreech: more than adept imho [22:11] I think the "we dont' care about conffile conflicts" decision is wrong. [22:11] aren't we debating on the lesser of two evils? [22:11] Other than the Adept not updating the database currently I can use it [22:11] I think it will lead to broken systems. [22:12] what about apt ...is it being looked at too ? [22:12] does anyone else have concerns about how kpackagekit handles conflicts? [22:12] Tonio_: Yeah but the problem is that if we have a packe management tool in jaunty that supports neither software selection nor description search nor filters that are actually useful, we're in trouble [22:12] ScottK people capable to understand the conffile questions don't use a graphical package manager [22:12] jjesse: indeed but also which is easier to corrupt to the side of goos [22:12] ScottK they generally use apt/aptitude [22:12] good [22:12] how hard would it to get kpackagekit to popup a dialog for conf changes? [22:12] I agree with Tonio_ for the most part on conffiles [22:12] Tonio_: That's a very Xandros attitude [22:13] ScottK I'm deploying kde in corp environment, and believe me the very first thing we are asked is "make it shut up" [22:13] stdin: hard, it needs big changes in packagekit [22:13] Tonio_: the two things i listed really need to be fixed if we ship kpackagekit. Riddell reminds me that rgreening volunteered to shape kpackagekit up but he isnt here at the moment [22:13] Tonio_: For a controlled environment like that, it's fine. [22:13] so obviously you dev guys are leaving apt alone ... good :) [22:13] what does kpackagekit do with conf-file conflicts atm? [22:13] stdin: i think that is beyond the scope of what we can do in time. but rgreening would be the one to ask [22:13] ScottK my mother wouldn't know what to respond is asked that dhclient.con has changed because a script touched it [22:13] a|wen: go with the current one I think [22:13] Riddell: Are other distros looking at getting that in? [22:13] Tonio_: just because someone has a httpd for example, doesn't mean they never see the "there are x updates available" bubble and click it [22:13] ScottK that's obvious [22:13] DaSkreech: fedora already has it [22:14] DaSkreech: fedora uses it [22:14] Tonio_: Such people don't modify conffiles either. [22:14] Riddell: message popups in kpackage kit? [22:14] it works decent in fedora [22:14] ScottK scripts do (dhclient is script modified) [22:14] seems to be easier to understand then adept was ever [22:14] DaSkreech: oh no, they have kpackagekit generally [22:14] stdin: the default action is to keep the old conf file [22:14] Riddell: Fedora also likes the xorg-server patch that screws up KDE [22:14] stdin: 99% of the times that is the fine choice [22:15] Fedora also shipped KDE 4.0 as a usable system for end users. [22:15] * yuriy should try out kpackagekit [22:15] Not much of a vote IMO [22:15] stdin: and the config won't get lost [22:15] !info kpackagekit [22:15] Package kpackagekit does not exist in intrepid [22:15] ok, but it's something to fix sooner rather than later though [22:15] stdin: Can it be fixed? [22:15] obviously not in time for jaunty [22:15] stdin: what to fix ? asking questions ? [22:15] So far we have no one doing any fixing. [22:15] yes, ubuntu will write its own packagekit backend is the plan [22:16] but not for jaunty [22:16] So any theory about what might change is pretty irrelevant. [22:16] ok.. so i think we need to regroup [22:16] ScottK: not if it can't be fixed at all [22:16] Tonio_: generally graphical debconf prompts [22:16] DaSkreech: Sure. That's true. [22:16] there isn't going to be time to do much with kpackagekit [22:16] stdin: those are creating problems [22:17] if we at least can get an (optional) popup that the conf-file has changed it's a usable start imo ... realistic? [22:17] stdin: my ex already answered yes when adept proposed to close kdm [22:17] seele: Is there a list of your concerns somewhere? [22:17] that close kdm.... and adept [22:17] and the upgrade was broken [22:17] * seele sighs [22:17] DaSkreech: yes, i already said so [22:17] people don't understand those questions, most of the times [22:17] Sorry if i missed it [22:17] we should move on [22:17] Tonio_: I was thinking about how mysql-server asks for a password, and things like that [22:18] and java licenses >_> [22:18] the plan is to go with kpackagekit and generally that's better than the alternative [22:18] if we are moving on did we decide anything? [22:18] if people don't read dialogs before clicking "OK", then that's their fault ;) [22:18] we did not decide anything [22:18] stdin: in that case you don't use a graphical component :) [22:18] so.. let's pause the conversation for a few minutes here [22:18] or else we'll never reach a conclusion [22:18] Win+C [22:19] three votes: [22:19] Vote 1 for package kit *as is* [22:19] Vote 2 for package kit with the two UI requirements colomar and i came up with [22:19] Vote 3 for package kit *only* if it gets the config file handling thing you all are discussing [22:20] please express you wish now. [22:20] 3 [22:20] 1 [22:20] 1, but 2 would be nice. [22:20] 2, but even 1 is fine with me, thinking about the future [22:20] 1 [22:20] 2 [22:20] better than unmaintained adept [22:20] 3- (as long as we get a popup) [22:20] is yuriy or apachelogger here? [22:21] 1. 2 would be really nice to have [22:21] * apachelogger didn't follow the discussion so has no clue what the config file handling would be [22:21] 1 though :) [22:21] 1 (2 nice to have) [22:21] (2 of course preferred= [22:21] apachelogger: Same as adept does and ask you about overwriting conffile changes [22:21] 1 (2 nice to have) but doesn't know if vote matters [22:22] jjesse: it does unless there is a conflict and we'll go with whatever council says. but i'd like to make it a member vote [22:22] apachelogger: you know what you're doing so you should use apt(itude) as long as 3 isn't working [22:22] ok. so there are lots of 1s and some 2s. [22:23] whatever we decide i'll work on documenting it [22:23] only two people are concerned about the configuration files [22:23] I am but not a member so... [22:23] I haven't tried kpackagekit at all, so I dunno [22:23] i will ask nixternal and yuriy what they think, unless they feel strongly about option 3, we will ship kpackage kit [22:23] council ok with that? [22:23] (yes) [22:23] absolute number of 1s and 2 are the same [22:23] I'll also point out that it would make it impossible to install e.g. sun java where you *must* answer a debconf prompt for it to install. [22:23] number of ones preceeding 2s is greater [22:23] seele: fine with me [22:23] DaSkreech: most of the 2s were nice to haves [22:23] yuriy and nixternal are both on council correct? [22:23] Yeah I just said that :) [22:24] ok so in the documentation we are now referencing kpackagekit in how to install software? [22:24] seele: I am also concerned about conffiles, but adept is not that much better [22:24] seele: they are [22:24] seele: I more vote for the future [22:24] I do think configuration files (more generally, questions during installation) are a concern though [22:24] so unless one of them are strongly opposed to it (which we will have to rediscuss) then this is what we're going for [22:24] With no canges? [22:24] changes [22:24] with changes if rgreening or someone will do them [22:25] DaSkreech: we will go with kpackagekit unless yuriy and nixternal are strongly opposed for reason 3 [22:25] kk [22:25] colomar and I will work with rgreening in the meantime to see what he can accomplish in the next two weeks [22:25] so.. end of kpackagekit discussion [22:25] next.. quassel [22:25] any quassel devs here? i think Sput is probably sleeping by now [22:25] EgS: poke [22:25] ouch :) [22:26] ScottK: you are pretty up on their development. is there anything we should know in the consideration of quassel? [22:26] jussi01's favourite subject [22:26] ;-) [22:26] :D [22:26] btw. this discussion is about including quassel as the default irc client. our goal is to be kde4libs only and konversation has not been ported [22:26] ScottK: ping [22:26] ok so anyway [22:26] if we use quassel it will be yet another application by defualt with no documentation/help file [22:26] EgS: how's the progress on seele's list? [22:26] * jussi01 thinks that the quassel devs response times are excellent. [22:27] Quassel has KDE4 integration now I hear? [22:27] i did a UI review of quassel and came up with a list of issues they had to address [22:27] yes [22:27] Kool [22:27] the quassel code monkeys have fixed many minor issues and are currently working on bigger issues [22:27] this includes a toolbar for common irc actions and a better connection dialog for when the irc client opens [22:28] seele: thought the biggest issue (the separation of core / client) is fixed ;) [22:28] i'm not sure what the status of those two things are [22:28] * Nightrose is using quassel as her client for a few months now and is impressed with the latest changes [22:28] EgS: just about to say that :) [22:28] toolbar is coming soonish, as we have now nice new icons :) [22:28] they have done a great job of separating the core and client in to a monolithic client [22:28] * JontheEchidna was actually able to replace konversation with quassel :D [22:28] EgS: do you have any concerns about getting things done by featurefreeze? [22:28] ^ Feb 19th i think? [22:28] seele , I hope so cuz I found quassel kinda clunky , hope it gets fixed [22:29] * DaSkreech would be concerned with connection experience [22:29] * Lure switched to quassel and likes it [22:29] * alleeJaunty tried quassel 2 hours ago for the first time. Still much too complicated, but I can see the potential [22:29] #kubuntu is the main help for people drastically confused as to what is going on [22:29] so for those of you concerned with quassel, it improves every day. so unless you have been keeping up with /trunk/ via ScottK's PPA, you are probably missing a lot [22:29] seele: no I don't. I consider the toolbar a small issue too (at least judging by the amount of work needed) [22:29] And one of the things I liked about KDE was it was much easier to jump on IRC to get help [22:30] EgS: ok. I gave Sput some suggestions on how to use the existing network Config as the connection screen too [22:30] * alleeJaunty checks the ppa [22:30] what is scottk's ppa? is it jaunty only? [22:30] DaSkreech , I have quassel working ok , but the setup is a bit confusing IMO [22:30] jjesse: no, it is available for intrepid too [22:30] * jjesse makes note [22:30] * ScottK is back [22:30] jjesse: ~kitterman [22:30] BluesKaj: and you are very familar with IRC concepts [22:30] so, basically there are two more things left on my requirements list that they are confident they will complete: the toolbar and the connection screen [22:30] people don't forget that there are two ways to use quassel [22:30] the goal was to make quassel easy enough for users to be able to launch the program and connect to #kubuntu for help [22:30] BluesKaj: but are you using the new mono client or? [22:30] the monolithic one got a lot easier lately [22:31] additional UI refinement can come later [22:31] Nightrose: Sweet [22:31] since we don't have any other options, i dont think we need to vote [22:31] Just a note as to what needs to be done [22:31] so unless something blows up in terms of development in the next two weeks, i recommend we ship quassel [22:31] anyone opposed? [22:31] +1 [22:31] DaSkreech , I hope that was said in jest , concepts no, but useability , yes ...I've tried many clients over the yrs [22:31] +1 from me :D [22:31] I'll just toss in that Quassel's upstream is very active and very responsive. [22:32] is it keeping the wee window at the top with data from all channels? [22:32] Also kees just did a security review and he found it well designed. [22:32] Riddell: It is [22:32] ScottK: oh he did that? [22:32] Riddell: that's an option that can be configured. we can decide later if we want to enable that by default [22:32] quassel++ [22:32] Riddell: He did. [22:32] ScottK: can you make sure the MIR bug is updated [22:32] Riddell: I will. [22:32] thanks [22:32] +1 for me [22:32] we should disable the buffer at the top IMO, it will confuse people :p [22:32] ok. i hear no one opposed about the inclusion of quassel [22:33] EgS: congratulations ;) [22:33] \o/ [22:33] \m/ [22:33] BluesKaj: Same thing :) [22:33] \o/ [22:33] +1 from me but only because konversation is no longer a choice [22:33] net topic is the removal of Arts. is andreas here? [22:33] a|wen [22:33] * a|wen waves [22:33] DaSkreech , so what's your opinion of quassel ? [22:33] a|wen: want to tell us about arts [22:34] Since knights is broken due to lack of KDE3, just remove it. [22:34] BluesKaj: DaSkreech: please talk about that out of channel for the time being [22:34] I've been asking for removal of such packages as I find them. [22:34] the removal is tracked here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RemoveArts [22:34] Great Concept. Like the buffers It's a goof GUI analogy to Screen and irssi needs to have a two click setup if we are going to have it by default [22:34] seele, ok sry [22:34] ScottK then we should consider all kde3 ioslaves to drop :) [22:34] most of them should be able to be compiled without arts ... but there is to problems [22:34] Tonio_: OK [22:35] ScottK kio-beagle, kio-locate, datakiosk... those are broken [22:35] nateon and knights ... are we ok on dropping them? [22:35] Tonio_: give me a list and I'll remove them [22:35] what are nateon and knights? [22:35] Riddell: yup, will do [22:35] knights is chess [22:35] seele: nateon is a korean chat app [22:35] hmm , brb [22:35] * ScottK points seele at the agenda [22:35] seele: agenda ;) [22:35] hehe [22:35] ? we're talking about arts right? [22:36] yes, they depend on arts [22:36] as a general note: if anybody feels he needs to discuss something about quassel or needs fast feedback: feel yourself invited to join #quassel [22:36] is there another kde chess game? [22:36] or do we care if we have a chess game? [22:36] seele: It doesn't matter, it's broken anyway [22:36] seele: agenda :P [22:36] a|wen: I take it nateon can't be compiled without arts? [22:36] that is our problem (maybe) [22:36] Can arts be patched out of nateon? [22:36] Riddell: exactly [22:37] well [22:37] we could hack it up [22:37] but [22:37] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nateon [22:37] doesn't seem to be very popular [22:37] we must not be big with the south koreans [22:37] JontheEchidna: we have crap localization, what do you expect :P [22:37] That's in Debian, not Kubuntu [22:37] :P [22:37] ScottK: well, it gives an idea [22:37] seele: I think there are enough Chess games that people won't get huffy about it [22:38] DaSkreech: +1 [22:38] dood, people get huffy is kpdf and kghostview aren't in intrepid [22:38] even though they have okular [22:38] i don't think hacking op nateon is worth it (and documentation is in korean!!) [22:38] ubottu knows at least 5 or 6 [22:38] Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [22:39] does anyone use a chess program here? [22:39] a|wen: can we notify upstream at least? [22:39] would be nice to get an opinion from someone who actually play chess [22:39] *plays [22:39] well [22:39] knights is dead [22:39] DaSkreech: i can do that [22:39] like _completely_ [22:39] hehe ok [22:39] last release was some pre-release in 2005 [22:39] ooooooook... [22:40] keeping it around would only delay the unavoidable [22:40] yo yo [22:40] and we are shipping staple from 2003 patched up [22:40] yo yo Nicke_ [22:40] The jaunty announcement should mention the list of removed kde3 only apps IMHO [22:40] It won't get any more broken if we remove it [22:40] nixternal even [22:40] ya, at work...only check IRC like once in a blue moon [22:40] Ubuntu popcon data for nateon is nateon 274 18 241 14 1 [22:40] * nixternal goes back away from IRC [22:41] for nateon I propose: talk to upstream => if no KDE 4 in sight, but planed => _try_ patching; if no KDE 4 version planed => drop it [22:41] http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Tagua?content=65571 [22:41] we can package this :) [22:41] if patching fails arts just needs to stick around a bit longer [22:41] Tonio_: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=tagua [22:41] Tonio_: as agenda says it is already in debian/experimental ;-) [22:41] nixternal: needed a vote from you is all [22:41] apachelogger: oups... [22:41] and it actually works pretty well [22:41] Tagua is a bit dead as I recall But can be massaged [22:42] There is a pidgin-nateon that's substanitally more popular than nateon [22:42] Prod Kopete :) [22:42] indeed, those koreans should really just write a plugin for kopete [22:42] I'm assuming it doesn't use a libnateon ? [22:42] no [22:43] Yeah make some contact with the Korean KDErs [22:43] I propose we drop it and just notify upstream and kde-kr [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] +1 [22:44] c-c-c-c-combo breaker! [22:45] so nateon dies ... and knights as well [22:45] I feel that suppestion speaks to our condition [22:45] Can I piggy back on this we drop kita2 also? It's a Japanese IM app with even lower popcon than nateon. [22:45] a|wen: poke me after the meeting I'll do the removal [22:45] Riddell: i'll do that [22:45] It's the last remaining rdepend for the KDE bindings [22:45] ScottK: what does it use? [22:45] I forget which one [22:45] DaSkreech: a vote on what? [22:45] and arts [22:45] One of the ruby ones I thikn [22:46] ScottK: ah yes, Japan, it would :) [22:46] ScottK: I agree, I don't think we should support ruby-kde3 any more [22:46] nixternal: kpackagekit as is or kpackagekit with UI changes or kpacakgekit with conffile fixes [22:46] libkorundum0-ruby1.8 [22:46] <3 japan [22:46] ScottK: yes, ruby it is [22:46] let's move on [22:46] Arby has a point on s-c-p-k [22:46] DaSkreech: #2 and #3 :) [22:47] \o [22:47] basically this is about getting it ready for jaunty [22:47] if #3 is complete that is fine, but don't ship a piece of junk [22:47] what we absolutely need to have [22:47] * nixternal goes back to work, call me if you need me from this point on :) [22:47] nixternal: with a proposal for fixage of course. You can do that once off work :) [22:47] what is nice to have [22:47] nixternal: when do you get off work? you've just created a council meeting :P [22:48] this is a list of features listed in the readme as still missing and where I've got to with them [22:48] http://paste.ubuntu.com/111016/ [22:48] I should be getting off work soon, but I am whicked busy, probably not for a few hours [22:48] currently I have 2 branches on the go [22:48] Lure: your point :) [22:48] stand alone lp:~rbirnie/system-config-printer/new_ui [22:48] ok, ping us when you get in [22:48] systemsettings module lp:~kubuntu-members/system-config-printer/kcm-scpk [22:48] oh, that looks familiar [22:48] so the first question is [22:49] do we want to go with the standalone version again or push to get it into systemsettings? [22:49] digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid) [22:49] the standalone version works reasonably well [22:49] Arby: i would like to see it in systemsettings but will it be much work? [22:49] Arby: pretty much the only thing keeping it from SS is that crash, right? [22:49] Lure: sorry one still pending point :) [22:49] as far as we know [22:49] ah [22:49] I hope to look at system settings intgration tomorrow [22:49] Arby: I'm all for systemsettings on my side [22:49] I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now [22:50] JontheEchidna: that crash and the class inheritance [22:50] Riddell: that would be great [22:50] but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...) [22:50] if we're going to get into systemsettings I'll need help [22:50] Lure: !! still discussing the printer stuff !! :) [22:50] I'm in over my head there :) [22:50] Tonio_: I see... ;-) [22:50] Riddell: we have both spckde and jockey somewhat there, but they both crash when they try to do dbus-y things [22:51] it breaks in ways I don't begin to understan [22:51] that too [22:51] hmm, right, dbus [22:51] what is spckde? [22:51] s-c-p-k [22:51] system-config-printer-kde [22:51] it really needs a shorter name [22:51] ah letters were in the wrong order there :) [22:51] kprinter2000 [22:51] scpk ? [22:51] Arby: kdeprint ? [22:52] that's so 9 years ago [22:52] * Tonio_ hides [22:52] kprinter3000 [22:52] :D [22:52] he [22:52] how [22:52] but why not in fact... kdeprint old fashion is dead, so....... [22:52] about [22:52] print [22:52] :P [22:52] do we know why dbus is causing it to crash? [22:52] and are waiting for a patch? [22:52] or does someone have to look in to it? [22:52] seele: no but I'll look at it tomorrow [22:52] ok [22:52] so we're agreed we want it in system settings, good [22:53] system settings contains everything so i'd like it in there [22:53] if possible [22:53] next which features do we absolutely need and which are nice to have? [22:53] I pasted a list up there ^^ [22:53] in the future we'll eventually need to address some of the utlities, but that wont be until jaunty+1/4.4 [22:53] Arby: smb integration is pretty important for business use cases I suppose [22:53] Systemsettings needs love [22:54] apachelogger: that would be my biggest concern [22:54] but again help needed [22:54] Arby: driver download isn't a priority, I don't think there's any drivers to download [22:54] SMB is lowest priority imo [22:54] if anybody who has a working samba printer could test it that would be good [22:54] i'd say a printer options page [22:54] access control page.. i think that could be low priority too, but other people might not agree [22:55] is the most important [22:55] yes, printer options page seems like the most reasonable and most useful [22:55] Arby: I can test at work, no problem [22:55] Arby: me too [22:55] seele: well access control is mostly done, needs testing [22:55] loads of smb printers there :D [22:55] Arby: oh in that case.. :) [22:55] Tonio_: apachelogger that would be great [22:55] I'll have a go at starting the options page tomorrow then [22:56] Arby: I'll make a test tomorrow morning and will let you know :) [22:56] apachelogger: Tonio_ I'll have to commit what I've got locally first to make it worthwhile [22:56] I'll do it after the meeting [22:56] Arby: please ping when ready so that we can test then :) [22:57] so, in summary [22:57] systemsettings integration and a job options page required for jaunty [22:57] if it was working, jockey would have the full functionality of the standalone kde and gtk clients [22:57] access control and samba browsing, nice to have [22:57] agreed? [22:57] +1 [22:57] aye [22:57] yup [22:58] +1 [22:58] excellent [22:58] as a general point, any and all testing would be appreciated :) [22:58] smb browsing would be nice [22:58] I'll try to put a package together soon and stick it in a ppa [22:59] * seele tries to stay away for technical talk.. [22:59] +1 to that as well :) [22:59] yuriy: it will arrive at somepoint :) [22:59] printing yes +1 yay [22:59] Arby: is lan browsing on the long term plans ? [23:00] seele: if you wouldn't mind taking another look at the ui would be nice [23:00] Arby: that's something I really loved with kdeprint.... [23:00] * apachelogger grabs the whip [23:00] s/browsing/scanning [23:00] lets move on :P [23:00] Tonio_: haven't thought about it yet :) [23:00] Arby: sure.. send me screenshots.. i dont have jaunty set up anywhere atm [23:00] Lure's item next [23:00] digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)? [23:00] seele: will do [23:00] I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now [23:00] but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...) [23:00] Arby: pretty usefull in corp environment :) but certainly not a priority, so for the long term maybe ;) [23:00] Lure: just needs MIRs for those new dependencies [23:01] Is kipi up to task for KDE4? [23:01] Riddell: new deps need to get in archive first ;-) [23:01] +1000 for kipi-plugins [23:01] DaSkreech: yup [23:01] kipi main [23:01] kipi on cd (improves gwenview as well) [23:01] Tonio_: browsing/scanning should be done via avahi. [23:01] digikam main [23:01] Lure: are you able to package them or are you looking for volunteers to do it? [23:01] apachelogger: I thought we were trying to save space :-P [23:01] digikam on CD (if possible spacewise) [23:01] * JontheEchidna shovels out driveway [23:02] lensfun is in Debian NEW, so I can just do 0ubuntu1 upload [23:02] DaSkreech: kipi is not that big is it? [23:02] alleeJaunty: requires zeroconf, not the same than scanning for an entire subnet on a specific port, imho [23:02] opencv needs packaging and help would be great (I am a bit rusty with new packages ;-)) [23:02] Tonio_: what size does the almighty kipi-plugins package have? [23:02] Lure: go for it [23:02] apachelogger: 4MB [23:02] that should fit on the CD I suppose ;-) [23:03] apachelogger: we also have to consider new libs coming with it :) [23:03] 4 megs is Huuuuuuuge :) [23:03] DaSkreech: look at ooo :P [23:03] if we get all the kde3 stuff to go away [23:03] DaSkreech: nothing compared to crap OOo... :) [23:03] Riddell: so no MIR needed for digikam/kipi-plugins, just for new depends? [23:03] Yeah I know but Koffice isn't quite Killer yet [23:03] Lure: correct [23:04] Riddell: then we can move them now (can you do it)? then we just take care for new deps later (when accepted in archive) [23:04] we could ship Abiword >_< [23:04] we can start seeding kipi-plugins [23:04] Lure: can do [23:04] DaSkreech: ... [23:04] talking about digikam, it i to me a basic feature to be able to download cameras photos by default.... [23:04] even windows xp does it... [23:04] I keeed I keeeed [23:04] Tonio_: digikampart? [23:04] as long as technically possible, I think we shoul ship with digikam [23:04] Tonio_: gwenview does not have this? [23:04] Does camera:/ still work ? [23:05] Lure: not that I know of...... [23:05] * Lure cannot recall [23:05] well, mass storage works, but not pptp [23:05] and lots of cameras are set to pptp only or by default [23:05] Is that an upstream issue? [23:05] DaSkreech: no simply gwenview isn't designed for that yet [23:05] camera:// still exists [23:05] well ... photography seems to be a popular hobby these days ... so we should stuff digikam on the CD if we have enough space left [23:05] mine and seele's cameras don't work in intrepid - major pita :/ [23:06] do people know about camera:// ? [23:06] +1 on improved digikam handling [23:06] I don't think that gwenview is supposed to do that at all [23:06] *digicam even :P [23:06] Tonio_: possibly not though [23:06] DaSkreech: KDE should [23:06] Lure: is the viewer in the same package ? if so we should split not to dupe gwenview [23:06] digikam on the cd if possible would be great [23:06] a|wen: :) [23:07] it's one of the killer apps imo [23:07] Tonio_: showfoto is in separate package, but it is very small [23:07] Lure: ok... what are the doc size ? [23:07] Tonio_: no kde4 doc yet, but in the works [23:07] Lure: okay [23:07] Tonio_: and it is separate package, afair [23:07] Lure: and what is the packge size ? [23:08] Tonio_: 10 MB [23:08] + depends [23:08] Riddell: one we get k3b in we can get rid of kdelibs4 right ? [23:08] openoffice needs to drop it to [23:08] no KDE file open dialogue [23:08] Tonio_: showfoto is the worst name ever. Editfoto would be much better for what the app is designed for [23:09] Riddell: yeah :( can't wait to ship with koffice2..... maybe one day... [23:09] alleeJaunty: true that :) [23:09] Can that be like the java stuff where all the depends aren't shipped by default but if install it it works [23:09] I almost recall reading an artcle that said that you could get OO.o to use the KDE file dialog [23:09] Riddell: just drop it - kde3 is new gnome - we do not want it anymore ;-) [23:09] That being the ooo stuff [23:09] ScottK: I don't know [23:09] Lure: lol [23:09] but it can keep the crystal icons and Qt widgets ,just no file open dialogue [23:09] Riddell: kdelibs4c2a is 10MB = digikam [23:10] I don't know if the kde integration is useful in OOo if it's kde3 [23:10] no KDE file open dialgoue [23:10] Riddell: considering digikam in that case looks possible right ? [23:10] yes, let's ask calc if he can look into dropping kdelibs from openoffice [23:10] it's extra confusing even, to have the completely separate set of bookmarks there [23:10] yuriy: good point [23:11] Riddell: OOo depends on kde3... hum... I forgot that part.... sorry [23:11] Riddell: I was all at konversation/k3b replacement [23:11] ACTION: move digikam and kipi to main, add to CDs, ask calc to drop kdelibs from openoffice [23:11] What's a k3b replacement? [23:11] trueg says he's going to get k3b back into shape [23:11] DaSkreech: wodim [23:11] * Lure hides [23:12] Sebastian is back in KDE swing would it be possibly to have a discussion to see a timeline for K3b 4 KDE4 ? [23:12] Riddell: is OOo depending on kde3 or 4 libs right now ? [23:12] Tonio_: kde3 [23:12] Lure: okay [23:12] There is a K3B KDE4 beta right ? [23:12] yes [23:12] * ScottK needs to run. [23:12] let's move on [23:12] DaSkreech: yes: does not work for me, but Tonio_ has some success [23:13] ok I'm fine with that [23:13] No opinion on KGet or Kopete tabs, but I do want stickers. [23:13] DaSkreech: packaging in the work on my side, tests are not that good on the dvd side :) [23:13] Tonio_ wants to discuss kget [23:13] yep [23:13] I personnaly consider ktorrent UI a nightmare [23:13] and I pretty love kget as a download manager for konqueror [23:13] is integrates like a charm [23:13] * Nightrose likes ktorrent tbh [23:13] I haven't used kget for torrents I'll assume the UI isn't a dream though [23:14] I like KDE's normal downloads [23:14] DaSkreech: bah UI is a standard download manager UI :) [23:14] simple and efficient [23:14] Riddell: yeah, but no pause, queue, restart and so on [23:14] How does it work feature wise? [23:14] Riddell: a download manager has a lot of advantages [23:14] ug, it still has that weird drop target thing in the middle of the screen [23:14] Riddell: is disabled by default [23:15] just popped up here [23:15] Riddell: just an option like with all download managers [23:15] OK. I do have an opinion about KGet. I don't like that drop target thing either. [23:15] See you all. [23:15] Riddell: can make is off by default easilly [23:15] hmm, yet another systray icon [23:15] Riddell: kget is very similar to any osx or windows standard download manager, and people are used to those softwares [23:15] Tonio_: plasmoid? :) [23:15] Tonio_: so what do you actually propose? [23:15] I haven't used kget, but I never saw the point of it [23:16] Nightrose: to test kget and when people have an opinion rediscuss this :) [23:16] Tonio_: those are not individual apps [23:16] * apachelogger doesn't like the concept of external download manager [23:16] this being what? [23:16] it's confusing [23:16] can't work out how to get it to start a torrent [23:16] apachelogger: well it's konqueror integration is really good [23:16] if kget by default? [23:16] Riddell: just open one [23:16] replacing ktorrent? [23:16] Tonio_: there is no integratoin [23:16] apachelogger: how? [23:16] Riddell: file - open I suppose? [23:17] Tonio_: konqui just throws the files at kget [23:17] apachelogger: hu ?? [23:17] apachelogger: there is no such option [23:17] kget does with them whatever it wants [23:17] so it is an external download manager and appears as independent app [23:17] apachelogger: that's the purpose of a download manager [23:17] which in my opinion got limited use case and target audience [23:17] apachelogger: my browser can crash and my downloads are going fine... [23:17] +1 [23:17] Riddell: no clue then [23:18] -1 if it would take up extra CD space [23:18] otherwise I'd have to try it [23:18] yuriy: Well the point is to remove ktorrent [23:18] Tonio_: then the kio stuff should be fixed that the slaves are not bound to the konqueror instance but something more generic kded for example [23:18] kded dies whenever you update packages [23:18] kdeinit then [23:18] so are there two things we're discussing? including kget and not including ktorrent? [23:18] yuriy: seems you are gaining 6 mb by the change [23:18] if that goes down you are boned anyway :P [23:19] doesn't sounds like anyone is convinced at kget [23:19] Riddell: just choose save as and kget gets the file [23:20] I don't see the advantage for file downloads and it's not intuitive to me for torrent downloads [23:20] Riddell, Tonio_: I think we should discuss this at next meeting .. giving people time to take a look at kget [23:20] Tonio_: I'll flip it what are the arguments for not including ktorrent ? [23:20] Riddell: I agree it's a different concept.... torrents are seen are standard downloads (opera does that too) [23:20] i'm dubious that the file manager can provide the necessary information and functionality torrent users are used to [23:20] +1 seele [23:21] Tonio_: which actually sounds like a good idea to me for a default [23:21] it's not as simple as enabling a torrent and just letting it run [23:21] but i'd personally much rather have ktorrent ... seems more intuitive to me [23:21] you care about having information about the seeds, which pieces youve downloaded, throttling, etc. [23:21] ktorrent++ [23:21] DaSkreech: well I'd like a download manger for konqueror, and since it also does torrents.... [23:21] Tonio_: i think we should evaluate kget as a download manager only [23:21] not as a replacement for ktorrent [23:22] if it happens to get included and it does torrents too.. good for it [23:22] seele: I don't care which pieces are downloaded as long as it's not finished... :) [23:22] +1 seele [23:22] Tonio_: for videos it can matter [23:22] you might be able to watch the beginning [23:22] seele: and I'm not that a fan of the search part of ktorrent, really confusing [23:22] Nightrose: that's a good point, indeed [23:22] ok tried out kget and i'm confused [23:23] how big is kget? [23:23] well, I propose people to try it as a download manager, and rediscus this next time [23:23] where is my download? [23:23] +1 on rediscuss [23:23] seele: ~ 3,5M [23:23] about benefits of download malager and so on [23:23] yuriy: kget in the systray [23:23] Tonio_: how do I do plugins for Kget ? [23:23] also i prefer the plasma notification things over some extra window [23:23] yuriy++ [23:24] hey. sry about being late. lappy issues [23:24] +1 [23:24] the download manager that always pops up is one of the things I don't like about firefox [23:24] rgreening: hola [23:24] yuriy: I agree on that point, but I think to remember that's on kget schedule [23:24] +1 to yuriy [23:24] yuriy: you can use allinonesidebar for that [23:24] works good for me [23:24] I'll try kget for now but I'm sceptical [23:24] i had issues trying to download torretns with kget, and found ktorrent was just much easier [23:24] we should move on [23:24] * apachelogger thinks the only sane approach to downloads is what google chrome does :P [23:25] I tend to agree my mother wouldn't need this kind of tool on the other hand [23:25] Tonio_: tabs in kopete? [23:25] Riddell: lots of people don't have super bandwidth [23:25] Riddell: consider they can download part of an iso every day for example, that can be usefull [23:25] * DaSkreech likes tabs. I don't know Ubuntu guidelines or KDE HIB well enough. [23:25] let's move on [23:25] it was discussed and decided in the past to activate tabs in kopete by default [23:25] what's next on the agenda? [23:25] so I did again with kde4 [23:25] tabs in kopete [23:26] but I received criticisms :) [23:26] jjesse: tabs in Kopete [23:26] * Nightrose uses tabs in kopeet [23:26] ah wasn't paying attention [23:26] sry [23:26] as opposed to opening new chats in separate windows? [23:26] Any examples of critique ? [23:26] seele: yes [23:26] my 2c - I don't use tabs in pidgin [23:26] seele: jep [23:26] DaSkreech: that sucks !! [23:26] kind of things like that :) [23:26] Tonio_: That's what I thought [23:26] strange since nobody complained with kde3.... but that's it :) [23:26] DaSkreech: yep ;) [23:26] what is the kopete default? [23:26] Tonio_: I propose that it's turned off for the betas and see what the response it [23:27] upstream default [23:27] is [23:27] seele: no tabs [23:27] seele: 1 chat 1 window [23:27] seele: new window per chat [23:27] No tabs [23:27] hmm [23:27] seele: but that's very msn.... [23:27] I can't get it to do tabs [23:27] I currently have it grouped by protocol which Seems to give me management as well as sanity [23:27] +1 for tabs here [23:27] seele: most IM do have tabs by default [23:27] +1 for keeping tabs [23:27] Riddell: it is under behaviour [23:28] How about we turn it off for the betas and see the response [23:28] (the option placement is pretty counter-intuitive imo) [23:28] having used the tab approach I have the feeling it gets in my way most of the time, though I am not exactly much of a im user anyway :) [23:28] KDE has tabs by dfalt in most apps, +1 for being consistant [23:28] I'm thinking that the people who don't like tabs are being vocal but the majority do like it [23:28] DaSkreech: that doesnt guarantee we will see a response [23:28] DaSkreech: we had it turned off for intrepid [23:28] a|wen: yep, very bad to set :) [23:28] DaSkreech: and if they are upgrades, then the previous settings will hold [23:28] seele: I know but I'm betting we will [23:28] DaSkreech: and did recive _no_ whatsoever response [23:28] like no one noticed the tabs were gone :P [23:29] apachelogger: So people didn't say anything about not having tabs but were quite vocal about having them? [23:29] seele: hum no since that's in KDS, so changing must change for most people, but as you said, they may just not complain [23:29] DaSkreech: yes [23:29] That's interesting [23:30] I would guess no tabs then [23:30] DaSkreech: a couple did, including you :) not the all earth came to me complaining :) [23:30] well, the amount of feedback is not really something to bind a decision on IMHO [23:30] apachelogger: and this was without window grouping ? [23:30] * yuriy thinks a forum poll would be nice [23:30] my point is that most kde apps have tabs [23:30] consistency ftw [23:30] yes they do [23:30] most IM have tabs by default (pidgin, adium on osx, trillian on windows, YIM....) [23:30] Tonio_: I agree that tabs are better for many reasons [23:30] gnome3 is all about tabs anyway :P [23:30] no tabs is the very msn way to work, only [23:30] but if people freak outat them ...:-/ [23:31] DaSkreech: our users are used to them for 3 years now :) [23:31] vote? [23:31] JontheEchidna: by the end of Gran Canria We will have clocks with tabs on them [23:31] and msn users..... still use msn on windows :) [23:31] ooh I think I got it working [23:31] Ha ha :) [23:31] hehe [23:31] Riddell: what ? msn ? :) [23:31] tabs [23:31] tabs [23:31] so who is for keeping tabs? [23:31] Riddell: AH ! [23:31] +1 for tabs [23:31] * Nightrose is [23:31] +1 for tabs [23:31] +1 for tabs [23:31] +1 for tabs [23:31] +1 tabs [23:32] I'm for it in principle [23:32] it still has two windows though which seems to lose the point [23:32] +1 for tabs [23:32] Riddell: Buddy list doesn't cont :-P [23:32] count [23:32] Riddell: the contact one and the chat one, as it always used to :) [23:32] Riddell: kopete is a service app, the main window disappears [23:32] Riddell: better than 5 I supppose ;-) [23:32] Riddell: ++ on that - would also like to have main window as tab [23:32] ok we seem to be in favour of tabs [23:33] what's next [23:33] rickspencer3 wanted to say hi [23:33] \o [23:33] o/ [23:33] rickspencer3: hi! [23:33] hi rickspencer3 [23:33] that's a strange way of saying hello [23:33] hi! [23:33] Lure: Eh? buddy lista as a tab? [23:33] hi rickspencer3 [23:33] * seele waves [23:33] greeting by proxy [23:33] rickspencer3 is the new manager of Canonical's desktop team [23:33] Hoorah! [23:33] aha! [23:33] DaSkreech: I would love it, but it is not available [23:33] yay [23:34] seele: I was waiting my turn [23:34] :) [23:34] Lure: this is KDE there must be a checkbox somewhere :) [23:34] rickspencer3: we're not as organized in our meetings as yours [23:34] I'll be pushier next time ;) [23:34] tell us a little about yourself rickspencer3? [23:34] ooh [23:34] Lure: actaully Kopete buddy list is KDE3 might be an issue [23:34] well, this is like my 8th week at Canonical [23:34] * apachelogger kicks DaSkreech [23:34] So I'm still learning the ropes here [23:34] there are no ropes here [23:35] my background in software started with usability, before I got into program management and then engineering management [23:35] * DaSkreech puts a sticker on the footprint [23:35] welcome then :) [23:35] I'm just psyched about the job, and want to learn as much as I can about Kubuntu now [23:36] hehe good start [23:36] all you need to know is it is the best [23:36] It's really a remarkable community and an awesome product [23:36] * DaSkreech prods nixternal to provide docs [23:36] so if people have question or comments about stuff canonical is doing, rick is a good chap to go to [23:36] rickspencer3: :) [23:36] * DaSkreech does [23:36] but post stickers [23:36] Hi Tonio_, we met at UDS, no? [23:36] rickspencer3: absolutly :) [23:36] same with seele, I believe [23:36] * jjesse thinks it is a good idea DaSkreech didn't rmeember he does docs for kubuntu as well [23:36] rickspencer3: i was definitely there [23:36] hehe [23:36] i was there as well [23:36] very nice [23:37] rickspencer3: nice to see your real interest in kde and kubuntu :) [23:37] * Nightrose wasn't there :( [23:37] * JontheEchidna wasn't at UDS sadly :( [23:37] jjesse: I did but I blame nixternal [23:37] * nhandler wasn't there [23:37] as was nixternal and rgreening [23:37] Nightrose, JontheEchidna: next time! [23:37] yay [23:37] that was my first week at Canonical, so I kind of blocked out most of it :) [23:37] ;-) [23:37] that's another rickspencer3 needs to learn, "when in doubt blame nixternal " [23:37] hehe [23:37] but I mostly blame nixternal for that [23:37] nice [23:37] \o/ [23:37] you leran quickly rickspencer3 ;-) [23:38] *learn [23:38] !nixternal [23:38] Oh no! The pointy-clicky Windows7 lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, and help on the MIRC client too! I LOVE MIRC!!! [23:38] awesome, changed it to windows7 [23:38] last agenda item is about stickers [23:38] * jjesse cackles [23:38] what? [23:38] mirc? [23:38] sinde when does he do mirc? [23:38] *since [23:38] thanks rickspencer3 [23:38] for those interested in tabs stats: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1053450 [23:38] * nhandler wants a sticker [23:38] so, stickers? [23:38] JontheEchidna: I'm probably a bigger windows lover than nixternal will ever be ;) [23:38] what sort of stickers are we talking about? [23:39] I have no clue what this is about but +4.2 stickers [23:39] * Lure wants stickers for new thinkpad I get in 2 weeks [23:39] * apachelogger hands rickspencer3 a basket filled with welcome cookies [23:39] JontheEchidna: and that's not a joke :) [23:39] the marketing chap at Canonical says he can send out stickers to active Kubuntu people as a wee thank you [23:39] the stickers are on shop.canonical.com [23:39] kubu stickers == awesum [23:39] Tonio_: You are? I blame nixternal for that [23:39] so e-mail me your postal address with STICKER in the header and I'll pass that on [23:39] * rickspencer3 slides a cookie out, slides basket under desk without sharing [23:39] rickspencer3 is now uninvited! [23:39] DaSkreech: haha, I used to be a microsoft MCSE and active directory sysadmin :) I still use windows xp/vista and 7 too :) [23:39] ah [23:39] no worries [23:40] * apachelogger bot tons of cookies today [23:40] yay i want me a sticker [23:40] these? http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=418 [23:40] rickspencer3: when there is backend + gnome/kde frontend, is it one of your task to organize that both frontends get the same love? [23:40] woo stickers :) [23:40] stickers rock [23:40] * a|wen is all for stickers [23:40] same with me, all +1 for the stickers :) [23:41] alleeJaunty: deep question [23:41] * nhandler sent his email [23:41] yuriy: yes [23:41] another thing on stickers [23:41] * DaSkreech rolls in stickers and nomnomnoms cookies [23:41] I don't know what the plans are currently on reviving the aluminum case badge project [23:41] Riddell: what mail address should we send to? [23:41] but for if and when that happens [23:41] apachelogger: jriddell@ubuntu .com [23:41] all of them [23:41] okies [23:41] I'd like to know if there is significant interest in kubuntu ones [23:41] aiee [23:42] quassel just memleak'd on me :( [23:42] i want [23:42] 40% of 640 MB [23:42] rickspencer3: yeah, we miss someone that keeps an eye on all desktop flavours ;) [23:42] EgS: ^ [23:42] yuriy +1 from me on case badges [23:42] EgS: go fix your code :P [23:42] Riddell: I sent to whatever address the Contact this User feature on LP used [23:42] so if your LoCo is interested, please email me [23:43] Riddell: jr@kubuntu.org also works, right? [23:43] we need a large order in order for it to be worth it and to get the price down [23:43] Lure: I belive so [23:43] any other agenda items? [23:43] large order as in thousands [23:43] blizzz: read what yuriy said? [23:43] Riddell: oh, yes, I think [23:43] Pepper rickspencer3 ? [23:44] I'm in berlin next week at the canonical team sprint, so probably not around as much in the evenings as usual [23:44] apachelogger: i? when? [23:44] rickspencer3: You are the manager of the Desktop Team? [23:44] blizzz: backlog [23:44] DaSkreech: yes [23:44] What is the objective of the Desktop Team ? [23:44] DaSkreech: the Canonical Desktop Team (as opposed to Ubuntu one) [23:44] I'm sure Riddell shudders every time he hears me say it too [23:44] rickspencer3: like "a boss of Riddell"? [23:45] rickspencer3: then we have to talk... [23:45] :-D [23:45] * Lure hides [23:45] ^_^ [23:45] ok, i'm off [23:45] bye yuriy [23:45] 'night yuriy [23:45] Bye yuriy [23:45] Lure: haha :) [23:45] one thing: _EVERYONE_ who isn't native english speaker pretty pretty please install Jaunty (if you install Jaunty) in your native language! [23:45] rickspencer3 isn't the technical lead by the way so don't go baffling him with code questions [23:45] Get a cookie [23:45] apachelogger: good idea [23:45] No no code questions :) [23:45] feel free to ask me coding questions, I'm sure I can give you wrong information [23:45] Just wanted to get a handle for what he's managing [23:45] apachelogger: what is aluminum case badge? however, since our target is becoming loco... [23:46] I will upload 4.2.0's l10n packages within the next 2 days, so they will be in the next language pack updates [23:46] We should prevent issues like the ones we had with intrepid at all costs [23:46] meeting over I think, thanks all, back to #kubuntu-devel [23:46] * Nightrose waves [23:47] blizzz: that was yuriy's thing [23:47] wohoo [23:47] DaSkreech: I didn't want to blow off your question, we can hop on #kubuntu-devel ofr a few minutes [23:47] if you want [23:47] yuriy: same question on you [23:47] Sure [23:47] rickspencer3: see you there