| === pgraner is now known as pgraner-afk | ||
| === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler | ||
| === calc_ is now known as calc | ||
| === _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde | ||
| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson | ||
| * ogra waves | 11:57 | |
| * StevenK shores | 11:57 | |
| * ogra waits for StevenK to make his std. joke | 11:57 | |
| * StevenK smirks | 11:57 | |
| ogra | :) | 11:57 |
|---|---|---|
| * NCommander thinks stdjoke should be added to the next revision of the C language | 11:57 | |
| NCommander | :-) | 11:57 |
| StevenK | MootBot! | 11:58 |
| StevenK | Yay! | 11:58 |
| NCommander | Its the first time its been here since I joined Canonical :-) | 11:58 |
| * NCommander hugs MootBot | 11:59 | |
| davidm | #startmeeting | 12:00 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm. | 12:00 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 12:00 |
| davidm | mobile meeting is started :-) | 12:00 |
| NCommander | awesome | 12:00 |
| davidm | persia, do we not have a meeting scheduled today? | 12:01 |
| persia | We do have a meeting scheduled today. | 12:01 |
| * lool waves | 12:01 | |
| persia | The bot doesn't track the schedule due to a bug. | 12:01 |
| davidm | Ah that explains it then | 12:01 |
| davidm | Thanks | 12:01 |
| davidm | We have a few todos from last week | 12:02 |
| davidm | first persia you ran last weeks meeting correct? | 12:02 |
| persia | I did. | 12:02 |
| davidm | thank you | 12:03 |
| lool | NCommander: You're running the next BTW IIUC | 12:03 |
| persia | On the other hand, I didn't actually test oem-setup this week. I'll try for tomorrow. | 12:03 |
| NCommander | Do we have a meeting next week due to Germany? | 12:03 |
| davidm | [topic] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard | 12:03 |
| MootBot | New Topic: persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard | 12:03 |
| persia | I didn't run that test. I'll try for tomorrow. | 12:03 |
| davidm | [action] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co) | 12:03 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co) | 12:03 |
| davidm | [topic] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it | 12:04 |
| MootBot | New Topic: NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it | 12:04 |
| StevenK | That just needs the spec written and then it can be marked Implemented | 12:04 |
| * NCommander didn't even see that he was assigned to me. | 12:04 | |
| StevenK | Er | 12:04 |
| StevenK | s/written/finished off/ | 12:04 |
| davidm | NCommander, can you get to it today? | 12:05 |
| persia | No, it needs a test plan, and to be tested, and it's gone. | 12:05 |
| NCommander | davidm, sure, no problem. | 12:05 |
| NCommander | Was this assigned to me last meeting, or just now? | 12:05 |
| StevenK | persia: Ah, right | 12:05 |
| persia | NCommander, Last meeting. | 12:05 |
| NCommander | hrm | 12:05 |
| davidm | [action] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan | 12:05 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan | 12:05 |
| StevenK | NCommander: I will tell you how to test it, then you can write the test plan and actually test it | 12:06 |
| davidm | [topic] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. | 12:06 |
| MootBot | New Topic: NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. | 12:06 |
| NCommander | StevenK, thanks, I just changed the assignee in Launchpad | 12:06 |
| persia | NCommander, No, don't change the Assignee: you're "Drafter", StevenK is Assignee (and did the implementation) | 12:07 |
| NCommander | Oh | 12:07 |
| NCommander | I didn't change the spec, but discussion hasn't gone anywhere. People who have ARM hardware have a sane(ish) booting solution, so there isn't much coming from #u-arm | 12:07 |
| * persia didn't see any discussion there at all | 12:07 | |
| * ogra still doesnt call a serial console "sane" :) | 12:07 | |
| NCommander | +1 ogra | 12:08 |
| davidm | Do I need to carry over the topic? | 12:08 |
| persia | Yes. | 12:08 |
| davidm | or do we have something else in it's place? | 12:08 |
| lool | I think it's too early to pursue implementation of shism | 12:08 |
| ogra | do we still want it ? | 12:08 |
| NCommander | Yes, but I'm not expecting to get much out of #u-arm | 12:08 |
| ogra | shism ? :) | 12:08 |
| ogra | heh | 12:08 |
| lool | I'd say it's pretty clear we will want bootable SD cards | 12:08 |
| lool | But not sure | 12:08 |
| NCommander | We have a set of patches for redboot to start extending it in that matter | 12:09 |
| lool | If we need a way to send redboot over a serial port or stuff it in a SD card image, we have to package redboot | 12:09 |
| davidm | [action] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co) | 12:09 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co) | 12:09 |
| ogra | lool, but bootable SD can also carry a dd'ed preconfigured bootloader | 12:09 |
| lool | Which bootloader? | 12:10 |
| ogra | the one for the target arch | 12:10 |
| davidm | I don't think we really want to touch the bootloaders, the board vendors should be doing that work I think | 12:10 |
| ogra | whatever that is for this specific one | 12:10 |
| lool | ogra: So we need it in the archive, right? | 12:10 |
| NCommander | I think the point is that at least with the babbage we would have a bootloader on the SD card | 12:10 |
| ogra | lool, thats what i say since *months* | 12:10 |
| lool | davidm: If we have to ship it, we have to provide and maintain source for it I'm afraid | 12:10 |
| NCommander | (although I'm not clear how you would set the board to boot from SD vs. PATA) | 12:10 |
| davidm | lool, good point | 12:10 |
| * persia notes that there's a whole channel to discuss this in, and an action to discuss outside the meeting (and the roadmap is busy) | 12:10 | |
| lool | ogra: And I never disagreed | 12:11 |
| lool | ogra: I just postponed until it was clear we needed it :) | 12:11 |
| davidm | I guess the babbage board does something that most boards don't the boot loader is written to the SD card and not internal flash | 12:11 |
| ogra | well, we should have at least something like a redboot-source and a uboot-source package | 12:11 |
| ogra | not sure we want/need actual binaries | 12:11 |
| davidm | [topic] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images | 12:11 |
| MootBot | New Topic: StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images | 12:11 |
| NCommander | davidm, well, as far as we know, that internal flash is going away, no idea what's happening there specifically though. | 12:12 |
| davidm | NCommander, agreed | 12:12 |
| StevenK | davidm: I did review it -- it looks good to me | 12:12 |
| ogra | davidm, the beagle and EVM can both boot fine with bootloader on SD | 12:12 |
| davidm | OK, I'll mark that as closed, thanks StevenK | 12:12 |
| NCommander | (side note, we are now building ARM CD images and netboot images) | 12:12 |
| ogra | davidm, so please approve that spec :) | 12:12 |
| davidm | ogra, good to know | 12:12 |
| ogra | i'll set it to pending approval | 12:13 |
| davidm | ogra, thainks | 12:13 |
| davidm | [topic] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications | 12:13 |
| MootBot | New Topic: persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications | 12:13 |
| * ogra whistles innocently ... | 12:14 | |
| persia | I made requests, but wasn't very forceful, and didn't get responses. I'll send out a more forceful request in a couple hours. | 12:14 |
| persia | We *need* to get these seed changes in by Monday, or we miss Alpha 4, and there's no point. | 12:14 |
| davidm | thank you, I'll carry over | 12:14 |
| davidm | Yes and I don't want to miss A4 | 12:14 |
| davidm | [action] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again | 12:15 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again | 12:15 |
| ogra | wll, unr and mid images look fine so far | 12:15 |
| ogra | *well even | 12:15 |
| ogra | good enough for A4 | 12:15 |
| davidm | OK that concludes prior action items | 12:15 |
| StevenK | ogra: Did you see the new UNR image! | 12:15 |
| ogra | the touchscreen situation is very bad though | 12:15 |
| StevenK | My blood, sweat and tears are all through that image! | 12:15 |
| ogra | StevenK, i tried yesterdays because of the touchscreens | 12:15 |
| davidm | persia, would you be so kind as to lead the roadmap review? | 12:15 |
| ogra | its great | 12:16 |
| persia | [topic] roadmap review | 12:16 |
| StevenK | ... so be sure to wash your hands and your USB key | 12:16 |
| ogra | StevenK, latest evtouch should at least recieve taps ... i have to fix the issues with movement events though | 12:16 |
| persia | davidm, No. Just topic each item in the list, and the assigned person will say someting. | 12:16 |
| davidm | [topic] roadmap review | 12:17 |
| persia | (MootBot doesn't like me) | 12:17 |
| MootBot | New Topic: roadmap review | 12:17 |
| davidm | [topic] offline-installer | 12:17 |
| MootBot | New Topic: offline-installer | 12:17 |
| ogra | well, my build-arm-rootfs script seems to be widely used | 12:17 |
| ogra | next step is to work out a way to do the same with d-i and preseeding | 12:18 |
| ogra | additionally we need to discuss how to combine the livefses and kernels | 12:18 |
| ogra | livefses for armel are available since last night | 12:18 |
| persia | Isn't that just dropping the installed kernel package into the livefs? | 12:18 |
| ogra | d-i images as well | 12:18 |
| ogra | persia, FSVO "just" yes | 12:18 |
| persia | Oh, right, the kernel d-i udebs. | 12:19 |
| ogra | its actually "installing the kernel package inside the livefs in a VM | 12:19 |
| ogra | " | 12:19 |
| ogra | and then re-roll the livefs | 12:19 |
| StevenK | persia: Please link the roadmap for lazy people who aren't sure they have it open? | 12:19 |
| persia | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap | 12:19 |
| ogra | StevenK, its linked on the agenda | 12:19 |
| davidm | [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap | 12:19 |
| MootBot | LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap | 12:19 |
| davidm | ogra, you done? | 12:20 |
| ogra | thats it so far about offline-installer, yes | 12:20 |
| davidm | [topic] unr-handling-jaunty | 12:20 |
| MootBot | New Topic: unr-handling-jaunty | 12:20 |
| * davidm needs to program his keyboard with Mootbot shortcuts ;-P | 12:21 | |
| StevenK | The UNR image this week has gotten new versions of the launcher, maximus and other fun things, and looks to be shaping up well | 12:21 |
| StevenK | bfiller has gone insane and has prodded upstream about a few issues and filed a mass of bugs | 12:21 |
| ogra | it looks great ! | 12:21 |
| * StevenK does the happy dance | 12:21 | |
| StevenK | I'm hoping to install it on my Q1 before I leave | 12:21 |
| persia | StevenK, Are you pushing a new -meta soon? | 12:22 |
| StevenK | persia: For? | 12:22 |
| StevenK | I pushed one before I left for dinner | 12:22 |
| persia | Ah, then my cache is just old :) | 12:22 |
| StevenK | 1.131 was published 6 hours ago | 12:22 |
| persia | RIght. I'll fight with apt. Moving on... | 12:23 |
| davidm | I just installed Intrepid on my brand spanking new eee PC 900a had some fun getting WiFi to work, are we need to be able to solve that for Jaunty | 12:23 |
| * StevenK points davidm at the kernel team | 12:23 | |
| * persia points davidm at the Any Other Business section of the agenda | 12:23 | |
| davidm | The eee PC will be a target. | 12:23 |
| davidm | [topic] mid-application-switcher | 12:24 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mid-application-switcher | 12:24 |
| ogra | there are DKMSified drivers in stgraber's PPA for the eee | 12:24 |
| persia | Haven't started work. Am expecting to have time to start next week. | 12:24 |
| ogra | i can give you a link after the meeting | 12:24 |
| ogra | kernel team should just include them | 12:25 |
| StevenK | Speaking of the kernel team! | 12:25 |
| ogra | poor cking ... entering at the wrong moment :P | 12:26 |
| * StevenK grins | 12:26 | |
| davidm | persia, you done? | 12:27 |
| persia | Yes. Just bump to the next for these after a line or two, if there's no response, or we'll run over. | 12:27 |
| davidm | [topic] mobile-setup-wizard | 12:27 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mobile-setup-wizard | 12:27 |
| persia | Need to test: see my action item :) Should have a set of work to be done ready tomorrow, but don't expect it to be done until Alpha 5. | 12:28 |
| davidm | [topic] mobile-team-seed-management | 12:28 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mobile-team-seed-management | 12:28 |
| davidm | StevenK, ^^ | 12:29 |
| StevenK | Yeah, thinking | 12:29 |
| StevenK | It's mostly done, aside from the last bit which I'm waiting for archive reorg | 12:29 |
| persia | Last week it was basically pending: do we want to block it on deeper specification of archive reorg? | 12:29 |
| StevenK | I'd rather we declare it done | 12:29 |
| persia | And have the other bit be ad-hoc fallout of archive-reorg? | 12:30 |
| StevenK | Sure | 12:30 |
| davidm | [topic] ship-seed-for-mobile-images | 12:30 |
| MootBot | New Topic: ship-seed-for-mobile-images | 12:30 |
| persia | I'm fine with that, so long as it gets documented in Unresolved Issues. | 12:30 |
| ogra | NCommander, ^^ :) | 12:31 |
| davidm | Guessing from action items he has no input now | 12:32 |
| ogra | (hint: just say "in progress" :) ) | 12:32 |
| NCommander | I'll finish this up today with StevenK's assistance. | 12:32 |
| davidm | [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen | 12:32 |
| MootBot | New Topic: general-resolution-for-touchscreen | 12:32 |
| ogra | looks very bad | 12:32 |
| ogra | none of my touchscreens work with evdev | 12:32 |
| ogra | upstram are liars :P | 12:32 |
| StevenK | Haha | 12:33 |
| ogra | so i'm currently working first prio on getting evtouch back in shape to avoid regressions | 12:33 |
| ogra | i *will* look into evdev and do what i can, but want to avoid us to release without a working solution | 12:33 |
| ogra | so that spec might become jaunty+1 depending on upstream | 12:34 |
| davidm | [topic] arm-softboot-loader | 12:34 |
| MootBot | New Topic: arm-softboot-loader | 12:34 |
| NCommander | Well, some good, some bad | 12:34 |
| NCommander | kexec is still broken on ARM (my patch doesn't work on real hardware) | 12:34 |
| NCommander | On Freescale's HW, we still can't boot an initramfs from RedBoot (I did poke jerone about this) | 12:35 |
| davidm | NCommander, you done | 12:36 |
| NCommander | ? | 12:36 |
| NCommander | No | 12:36 |
| NCommander | Still typing | 12:36 |
| NCommander | On the plus side, ogra came up with IMHO a very impress shell script based menu that parses grub's menu.lst and spits out a nice ASCII menu; I am planning to package this, and a modified kexec package so we can generate an initramfs on x86/amd64/etc. to test this, and to work on getting such packages in the archive | 12:36 |
| NCommander | I also plan to try and bring futher discussion of this in #u-arm. | 12:36 |
| * NCommander is done. | 12:36 | |
| ogra | well, it can parse any kind of file, not only menu.lst | 12:37 |
| davidm | [topic] mid-jaunty-launcher | 12:37 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mid-jaunty-launcher | 12:37 |
| StevenK | Need time | 12:37 |
| ogra | kourou ! | 12:37 |
| davidm | [topic] selection-of-arm-images | 12:38 |
| MootBot | New Topic: selection-of-arm-images | 12:38 |
| ogra | image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images | 12:38 |
| StevenK | I've not had time to draft the parts of the spec/picking out what needs to be done | 12:38 |
| StevenK | davidm: I wasn't done yet! | 12:38 |
| StevenK | (I am now) | 12:38 |
| ogra | rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for kernels | 12:38 |
| davidm | [topic] StevenK sorry | 12:38 |
| MootBot | New Topic: StevenK sorry | 12:38 |
| StevenK | Like that needed a seperate topic | 12:38 |
| davidm | [topic] selection-of-arm-images | 12:39 |
| MootBot | New Topic: selection-of-arm-images | 12:39 |
| ogra | well, what i said above :) | 12:39 |
| * davidm has to stop prequeuing | 12:39 | |
| ogra | ogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images | 12:39 |
| ogra | <ogra> rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for actual kernels | 12:39 |
| ogra | done ... | 12:39 |
| davidm | [topic] mid-screen-rotation | 12:39 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mid-screen-rotation | 12:39 |
| ogra | not started yet, but since its a trivial gui that will take me only a day | 12:40 |
| persia | Safe to target for Alpha 5? | 12:40 |
| ogra | i'll kick it off probably in a spare hour at the sprint | 12:40 |
| ogra | yeah | 12:40 |
| ogra | A5 should be fine | 12:40 |
| ogra | does the spec define a language to be used ? | 12:40 |
| davidm | [action] target mid-screen-rotation for A5 | 12:40 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: target mid-screen-rotation for A5 | 12:40 |
| davidm | [topic] mid-display-manager | 12:41 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mid-display-manager | 12:41 |
| persia | ogra, Nope, although it presumes python. | 12:41 |
| ogra | (C or python ?) | 12:41 |
| ogra | C will be smaller though | 12:41 |
| davidm | ogra, either is fine | 12:41 |
| ogra | oki | 12:41 |
| davidm | lool, mid-display-manager?? | 12:42 |
| lool | We discussed the implementation with Emmet shortly; no other update. | 12:42 |
| davidm | [topic] hildon-packaging-jaunty | 12:42 |
| MootBot | New Topic: hildon-packaging-jaunty | 12:42 |
| persia | I' m about 60% drafted locally: should post for review in the next couple days. | 12:43 |
| davidm | [topic] lpia-versus-i386 | 12:44 |
| MootBot | New Topic: lpia-versus-i386 | 12:44 |
| lool | Will discuss with cjwatson and doko over the sprint along other toolchain changes. (Nothing else to report on lpia-versus-i386.) | 12:44 |
| davidm | [topic] mobile-applications | 12:44 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mobile-applications | 12:44 |
| persia | I've mostly wrestled it into an actual spec, but will need input. Will be sending reminder email in a couple hours. | 12:44 |
| davidm | [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup | 12:45 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mobile-spec-cleanup | 12:45 |
| persia | Haven't touched it, and don't expect to get back to it until FF. | 12:45 |
| davidm | [topic] recovery-partition | 12:45 |
| MootBot | New Topic: recovery-partition | 12:45 |
| StevenK | But it doesn't get blocked by FF \o/ | 12:46 |
| lool | No progress this week. High on my TODO list along the other high priority stuff. (Nothing else to report on recovery-partition.) | 12:46 |
| davidm | that concludes roadmap review | 12:46 |
| ogra | yay | 12:46 |
| davidm | [topic] Other Business | 12:46 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Other Business | 12:46 |
| * ogra really likes the productivity of the new meeting structure | 12:47 | |
| StevenK | Yup. | 12:47 |
| NCommander | same | 12:47 |
| persia | Wifi drivers for the Eee. | 12:47 |
| StevenK | We're nearly done and there's still 13 minutes to go | 12:47 |
| davidm | Yes, WiFi drivers for eee PC | 12:47 |
| ogra | https://launchpad.net/~stgraber/+archive/ppa has a rt2860 driver package | 12:47 |
| ogra | working fine with DKMS | 12:47 |
| ogra | it would be good to get that merged into our kernel if legally possible | 12:48 |
| ogra | (not sure what holds it back or if that hanst actually happened in jaunty even) | 12:48 |
| cjwatson | ogra: (for the record, livefses for armel have been available for a lot longer than since last night) | 12:48 |
| ogra | *hasnt | 12:48 |
| ogra | cjwatson, *publically* available :) | 12:48 |
| davidm | we will need to look into WiFi status to see how it can be solved. Took me a couple of hours to track down a working solution for the 900a, and 30 minutes to compile and install same. | 12:50 |
| davidm | Will need solutions for 700 900 and 1000 | 12:50 |
| ogra | right, the DKMS solution is way cleaner and will update automatically with the kernel | 12:50 |
| StevenK | davidm: I think the kernel team is the first port of call | 12:50 |
| ogra | ++ | 12:50 |
| davidm | Agreed, I'll explore with pgraner | 12:50 |
| davidm | [action] davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week | 12:51 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week | 12:51 |
| davidm | OK any other business? Or I can close the meeting/ | 12:51 |
| ogra | i think the 700 is supported OOTB btw | 12:51 |
| ogra | using ath5k | 12:52 |
| StevenK | Yes, I have one | 12:52 |
| StevenK | Are we having a meeting next week? | 12:52 |
| ogra | we probably should try | 12:52 |
| davidm | StevenK, I think so we can have it from sprint | 12:52 |
| davidm | Easy enough I think unless bandwidth is too poor | 12:53 |
| StevenK | Having an IRC meeting at 1pm will be a novelty | 12:53 |
| cjwatson | bandwidth will not be great | 12:53 |
| ogra | not really :P | 12:53 |
| cjwatson | apparently the hotel has only given us 40% of what we asked for | 12:53 |
| ogra | bah | 12:53 |
| ogra | do we have local mirrors ? | 12:53 |
| davidm | cjwatson, yes I saw that but I think we can sneak IRC through | 12:53 |
| cjwatson | so it'll be 2Mbit | 12:54 |
| cjwatson | ogra: yes | 12:54 |
| * davidm crosses fingers | 12:54 | |
| ogra | worked fine in london that way | 12:54 |
| NCommander | O_O; | 12:54 |
| NCommander | 2Mb? | 12:54 |
| StevenK | cjwatson: Oh good. It will feel just like home | 12:54 |
| NCommander | and 200 people from Canonical? | 12:54 |
| NCommander | .... | 12:54 |
| davidm | synchronous | 12:54 |
| cjwatson | 200? since when? | 12:54 |
| ogra | heh | 12:54 |
| cjwatson | this is a distro sprint, not allhands | 12:54 |
| NCommander | Oh | 12:54 |
| NCommander | *coughs* | 12:54 |
| NCommander | Ok | 12:54 |
| StevenK | Fail | 12:54 |
| ogra | NCommander, we dont all bring our families | 12:54 |
| StevenK | Haha | 12:54 |
| davidm | StevenK, nah, it will still be a meg more then you have at home | 12:54 |
| cjwatson | people will have to be reasonably parsimonious about bandwidth | 12:54 |
| * StevenK glares at davidm | 12:55 | |
| * NCommander notes to download all Ubuntu ISOs before he leaves | 12:55 | |
| StevenK | davidm: I have 1.5Mbit, thank you oh so much | 12:55 |
| davidm | OK sounds like we don't have anything else so endmeeting going once | 12:55 |
| ogra | NCommander, we'll have local mirrors, i hope that includes cdimage | 12:55 |
| cjwatson | NCommander: we'll have a local cdimage mirror | 12:55 |
| ogra | snap :) | 12:55 |
| davidm | StevenK, but OZ only has 1 Meg off the land ;-) | 12:55 |
| ogra | haha | 12:56 |
| StevenK | Oh, thank $DEITY | 12:56 |
| StevenK | rsyncing images to test won't suck, then | 12:56 |
| NCommander | yay for !suck | 12:56 |
| ogra | berlin has lots of cafes with free wlan though ;) | 12:56 |
| StevenK | I'll just need to remember to copy said images to my laptop | 12:56 |
| ogra | we culd just swarm out | 12:56 |
| davidm | endmeeting going twice | 12:56 |
| davidm | #endmeeting | 12:57 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 06:57. | 12:57 |
| davidm | Thanks everyone | 12:57 |
| ogra | thanks | 12:58 |
| NCommander | amazing, we finished a meeting with time to spare | 12:58 |
| StevenK | Ooh, 3 minutes | 12:59 |
| persia | Who's here for the Java meeting? | 14:02 |
| Koon | o/ | 14:02 |
| slytherin | me | 14:03 |
| persia | Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting | 14:03 |
| persia | No special agenda items this time. | 14:03 |
| persia | robilad is missing: Do we want to keep that on the RoadMap? It's been a while since there was any activity. | 14:04 |
| persia | If nothing else, might be good to try to specify things in more detail there. | 14:04 |
| slytherin | persia: I will mail him asking to update roadmap | 14:07 |
| persia | slytherin, OK. I'm in favour of making Java servers work, but it needs someone driving :) | 14:08 |
| persia | Next up: MoveToUniverse: is there anything significant still pending? Work to be done? | 14:09 |
| slytherin | jboss packages moved to universe. :-) | 14:09 |
| * ScottK is curious if there will be any discussion about packaging policy? | 14:09 | |
| persia | That was the last big chunk, right? The rest require licensing issues? | 14:09 |
| slytherin | Probably. The only one I am planning to file bug for is worldwind. | 14:10 |
| persia | ScottK, It's not on the agenda, but can be raised after the Roadmap. | 14:10 |
| persia | slytherin, OK. When you get that sorted, maybe move it to Done ? | 14:10 |
| Koon | ScottK: yep, i'll summarize the current thread | 14:10 |
| slytherin | persia: sure | 14:10 |
| persia | Koon, Maven (and let's leave glassfish/geronimo until after) | 14:10 |
| slytherin | wait | 14:11 |
| slytherin | I have just one last update. | 14:11 |
| persia | Right. Still MoveToUniverse then. | 14:11 |
| slytherin | there are two jboss related packages in depwait in universe, libjboss-cache2-java and libjboss-buildmagic-java. buildmagic is circular build dep (on itself) and cache2 has build dep on a package which is not even in Debian. | 14:11 |
| persia | buildmagic can be sorted by special application to the buildd admins to do a manual build once. Has a request been made? | 14:12 |
| slytherin | No. I haven't even checked if the circular dep is actually required | 14:12 |
| slytherin | It would be great if someone can take over the work. | 14:13 |
| persia | And what's the issue with cache2? How do we resolve that? New package in pkg-java? | 14:13 |
| slytherin | persia: probably look into Torsten's personal repository for the package and if it is found ask him to upload to Debian so we can do a sync | 14:13 |
| persia | So it sounds like these aren't big issues, but it's just a time thing? | 14:14 |
| slytherin | yes, and I am tired of solving the circular build deps. :-( | 14:14 |
| persia | Right. Maybe issue a call for help to the mailing list? | 14:16 |
| persia | Anything else on MoveToUniverse? | 14:17 |
| persia | OK. Moving to maven : Koon? | 14:19 |
| Koon | For Maven we are working on converging approaches with Debian. I'll meet with doko and Torsten next week to discuss that. | 14:19 |
| Koon | The approaches are mostly the same (no Maven patch), I just have to make sure our use cases are covered. And Torsten knows a lot more about Maven/Java than I do so his approach is probably better | 14:19 |
| persia | Do you think we'll hit Jaunty, or is it likely jaunty+1? | 14:20 |
| Koon | Looking at recent progress I think we may be able to hit Jaunty. It all depends on Torsten though, since we'll most likely sync his work | 14:21 |
| persia | And that includes ludovicc's work? | 14:21 |
| slytherin | yes, AFAIK. | 14:22 |
| Koon | ludovicc has been working on the tools together with Torsten. | 14:22 |
| persia | OK. That sounds like a good plan. Looking forward to next week. | 14:22 |
| Koon | definitely | 14:22 |
| persia | Anything else for maven? | 14:22 |
| Koon | Nope. | 14:22 |
| persia | OK. For Removing Java 5: | 14:23 |
| persia | I got as far as registering the spec | 14:23 |
| persia | (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/java5-removal) but haven't drafted it. | 14:23 |
| persia | I have a couple script fragments slytherin put together earlier, and expect to have something for review by the next meeting. | 14:23 |
| persia | Not yet sure how to get the spec approved, but I'll try to get that sorted as well. | 14:23 |
| persia | And that's where we are. | 14:24 |
| persia | Now, anyone have other items they want to raise? | 14:24 |
| slytherin | none from my side. | 14:24 |
| ScottK | I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread. | 14:25 |
| Koon | No conclusion yet... | 14:25 |
| Koon | general position from the ML answers so far seem to be to keep the clean approach we've had until now... do the packages we can from source and binary-package those we can't. | 14:25 |
| Koon | influence upstream to be compatible with the stack we provide | 14:25 |
| ScottK | I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread. | 14:26 |
| ScottK | Sorrt for the double post | 14:26 |
| persia | The pointers to JPackage were interesting: is there much we can share there, or did they fall into the trap of specified versions? | 14:26 |
| ScottK | Sorry even | 14:26 |
| Koon | No they didn't fall into that trap | 14:26 |
| persia | It just sort of lost momentum? | 14:27 |
| Koon | My impression is that their appraoch (as well as ours) doesn't scale well | 14:27 |
| ScottK | One point that I don't think got much mention on the list is that code copies are a security nightmare. | 14:27 |
| Koon | at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others | 14:27 |
| persia | I just don't understand how that's special for Java, as compared to other languages. | 14:27 |
| ScottK | persia: Which 'that'? | 14:28 |
| persia | There's a somewhat related thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss about jabref, and when responding to that I noticed just *how* much random embedded stuff ended up in some .jar files. | 14:28 |
| persia | ScottK, "at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others". | 14:28 |
| Koon | ScottK: I think everyone knows that code duplication is bad for security (hopefully) | 14:28 |
| ScottK | I think it's particularly relevant here because at least one proposal is particulalry bad in that regard. | 14:29 |
| persia | ScottK, Well, the "binary-in-multiverse" is bad in that regard too. | 14:30 |
| persia | The issue is more that upstreams tend to try to bundle everything, rather than working with their upstreams. | 14:30 |
| Koon | unfortunately in most cases it's not pure code duplication. It's duplication of code that exist in an API-incompatible version somewhere else | 14:30 |
| ScottK | Agreed, but I think in Multiverse there is no suggestion that things are supportable from a security perspective. | 14:31 |
| Koon | pure code duplicates are easy to solve with a couple symlinks and Depends: entries | 14:31 |
| ScottK | This is a lot like the Ruby Gems argument we had last cycle. | 14:31 |
| ScottK | I don't know of a good answer beyone help upstream gain some sanity. | 14:31 |
| persia | Well, it's also user education. Many users don't actually care about it (cf. Jabref thread). | 14:32 |
| Koon | I still kinda hope we can build from source + a static API description | 14:32 |
| persia | They just download something from a website that works cross-platform that also works in Ubuntu. | 14:32 |
| Koon | because imho there is no technical reason to require the presence of the binary artifact | 14:33 |
| Koon | for bytecode generation | 14:33 |
| persia | Koon, That's an interesting idea, but I wonder why the API is being checked. | 14:33 |
| ScottK | I think there is some good work to be done around this. | 14:33 |
| Koon | maven proved that you can generate bytecode with one version and use another one at runtime | 14:33 |
| persia | Also, how do we confirm that the checked API matches that of our packaged library? | 14:33 |
| ScottK | Until we have a good way to support this, there's really not much reason to put it in the archive, IMO. | 14:34 |
| persia | ScottK, Well, I'd argue that anything with sufficient user demand would benefit from mirroring support, etc. (even in multiverse). | 14:34 |
| persia | Lets us do things like track a version that was tested, and worked at release time. | 14:35 |
| Koon | yes, it all depends how bad the software is wanted | 14:35 |
| Koon | it's just not something we would recommend as a general way of doing things | 14:35 |
| ScottK | Except if it's GPL, I don't think we can just toss a binary blob over the fence and declare victory. | 14:35 |
| persia | Oh, certainly. Copyleft licenses are special that way. | 14:36 |
| persia | BSD/X/ISC/CDDL are a little more forgiving. | 14:36 |
| * slytherin has to be away for some work. will be in 15-20 minutes | 14:36 | |
| ScottK | If users can download it from a web site and have it work, until it's actually maintainable, I'd suggest let them do that, but that's just me. | 14:37 |
| persia | Err, except CDDL is copyleft, so scratch that one. | 14:37 |
| Koon | There is no Java compilation option allowing to ignore method checking... but maybe we could talk with Sun about this. That would /so/help | 14:37 |
| persia | They tend to have presence at UDS: let's make sure it's one of the items for discussion in May. | 14:38 |
| Koon | i'm pretty sure it would generate the very same binaries | 14:38 |
| ScottK | I think that's the kind of thinking we need now... What are the tools we need to make these Java amalgamations distro friendly. | 14:38 |
| persia | There's usually only one Java session, about the JDK/JRE, but having a couple might let us explore more topics (if there is room). | 14:38 |
| ScottK | I think figure policy and tools for the long run and then figure out how to get there. | 14:38 |
| Koon | sidenote: robilad discussed API tracking tools that Sun wants to more closely integrate in future Java | 14:39 |
| Koon | So there is definitely room for improvement | 14:40 |
| persia | Yeah. There's a lot of thought about hjaving Java7 be sensibly modular, and encouraging use of common libraries. | 14:40 |
| persia | It's just that Java7 is always rather future. | 14:40 |
| Koon | So I'd use temporary workarounds rather than policy transhing | 14:40 |
| Koon | trashing | 14:40 |
| Koon | to get the Java software we may require in today | 14:40 |
| ScottK | I'd encourage you to make very sure you have a broad consensus on how you decide to approach that. | 14:41 |
| persia | Well, most of the workarounds end up pushing to multiverse, where there's much less worry. | 14:41 |
| persia | How much consensus is required? | 14:41 |
| Koon | persia: or restricted ? | 14:41 |
| ScottK | Restricted is for drivers. | 14:42 |
| persia | Koon, No, not restricted. | 14:42 |
| Koon | ok | 14:42 |
| persia | Koon, The incentive to have things in restricted ought be going away before any of these stacks are in shape to be considered. | 14:42 |
| ScottK | Koon: I think if it stays in multiverse and is legal (no GPL/CDDL blobs), then not a lot. | 14:42 |
| ScottK | But whatever approach is taken, it needs to be documented and get some community review. | 14:43 |
| persia | So, anything else about this packaging thread, or are we done? | 14:47 |
| Koon | nothing from my side | 14:48 |
| persia | OK. Anyone else have anything to raise? | 14:48 |
| persia | In that case, meeting adjourned. | 14:49 |
| persia | Thank you all for coming, and we'll do it again next week. | 14:49 |
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