=== pgraner is now known as pgraner-afk
=== nhandler_ is now known as nhandler
=== calc_ is now known as calc
=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
* ogra waves 11:57
* StevenK shores11:57
* ogra waits for StevenK to make his std. joke11:57
* StevenK smirks11:57
* NCommander thinks stdjoke should be added to the next revision of the C language11:57
NCommanderIts the first time its been here since I joined Canonical :-)11:58
* NCommander hugs MootBot 11:59
MootBotMeeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.12:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]12:00
davidmmobile meeting is started :-)12:00
davidmpersia, do we not have a meeting scheduled today?12:01
persiaWe do have a meeting scheduled today.12:01
* lool waves12:01
persiaThe bot doesn't track the schedule due to a bug.12:01
davidmAh that explains it then12:01
davidmWe have a few todos from last week12:02
davidmfirst persia you ran last weeks meeting correct?12:02
persiaI did.12:02
davidmthank you12:03
loolNCommander: You're running the next BTW IIUC12:03
persiaOn the other hand, I didn't actually test oem-setup this week.  I'll try for tomorrow.12:03
NCommanderDo we have a meeting next week due to Germany?12:03
davidm[topic] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard12:03
MootBotNew Topic:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard12:03
persiaI didn't run that test.  I'll try for tomorrow.12:03
davidm[action] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)12:03
MootBotACTION received:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)12:03
davidm[topic] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it12:04
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it12:04
StevenKThat just needs the spec written and then it can be marked Implemented12:04
* NCommander didn't even see that he was assigned to me.12:04
StevenKs/written/finished off/12:04
davidmNCommander, can you get to it today?12:05
persiaNo, it needs a test plan, and to be tested, and it's gone.12:05
NCommanderdavidm, sure, no problem.12:05
NCommanderWas this assigned to me last meeting, or just now?12:05
StevenKpersia: Ah, right12:05
persiaNCommander, Last meeting.12:05
davidm[action] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan12:05
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan12:05
StevenKNCommander: I will tell you how to test it, then you can write the test plan and actually test it12:06
davidm[topic] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.12:06
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.12:06
NCommanderStevenK, thanks, I just changed the assignee in Launchpad12:06
persiaNCommander, No, don't change the Assignee: you're "Drafter", StevenK is Assignee (and did the implementation)12:07
NCommanderI didn't change the spec, but discussion hasn't gone anywhere. People who have ARM hardware have a sane(ish) booting solution, so there isn't much coming from #u-arm12:07
* persia didn't see any discussion there at all12:07
* ogra still doesnt call a serial console "sane" :)12:07
NCommander+1 ogra12:08
davidmDo I need to carry over the topic?12:08
davidmor do we have something else in it's place?12:08
loolI think it's too early to pursue implementation of shism12:08
ogrado we still want it ?12:08
NCommanderYes, but I'm not expecting to get much out of #u-arm12:08
ograshism ? :)12:08
loolI'd say it's pretty clear we will want bootable SD cards12:08
loolBut not sure12:08
NCommanderWe have a set of patches for redboot to start extending it in that matter12:09
loolIf we need a way to send redboot over a serial port or stuff it in a SD card image, we have to package redboot12:09
davidm[action] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)12:09
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)12:09
ogralool, but bootable SD can also carry a dd'ed preconfigured bootloader12:09
loolWhich bootloader?12:10
ograthe one for the target arch12:10
davidmI don't think we really want to touch the bootloaders, the board vendors should be doing that work I think12:10
ograwhatever that is for this specific one12:10
loologra: So we need it in the archive, right?12:10
NCommanderI think the point is that at least with the babbage we would have a bootloader on the SD card12:10
ogralool, thats what i say since *months*12:10
looldavidm: If we have to ship it, we have to provide and maintain source for it I'm afraid12:10
NCommander(although I'm not clear how you would set the board to boot from SD vs. PATA)12:10
davidmlool, good point12:10
* persia notes that there's a whole channel to discuss this in, and an action to discuss outside the meeting (and the roadmap is busy)12:10
loologra: And I never disagreed12:11
loologra: I just postponed until it was clear we needed it :)12:11
davidmI guess the babbage board does something that most boards don't the boot loader is written to the SD card and not internal flash12:11
ograwell, we should have at least something like a redboot-source and a uboot-source package12:11
ogranot sure we want/need actual binaries12:11
davidm[topic] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images12:11
MootBotNew Topic:  StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images12:11
NCommanderdavidm, well, as far as we know, that internal flash is going away, no idea what's happening there specifically though.12:12
davidmNCommander, agreed12:12
StevenKdavidm: I did review it -- it looks good to me12:12
ogradavidm, the beagle and EVM can both boot fine with bootloader on SD12:12
davidmOK, I'll mark that as closed, thanks StevenK12:12
NCommander(side note, we are now building ARM CD images and netboot images)12:12
ogradavidm, so please approve that spec :)12:12
davidmogra, good to know12:12
ograi'll set it to pending approval12:13
davidmogra, thainks12:13
davidm[topic] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications12:13
MootBotNew Topic:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications12:13
* ogra whistles innocently ... 12:14
persiaI made requests, but wasn't very forceful, and didn't get responses.  I'll send out a more forceful request in a couple hours.12:14
persiaWe *need* to get these seed changes in by Monday, or we miss Alpha 4, and there's no point.12:14
davidmthank you, I'll carry over12:14
davidmYes and I don't want to miss A412:14
davidm[action] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again12:15
MootBotACTION received:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again12:15
ograwll, unr and mid images look fine so far12:15
ogra*well even12:15
ogragood enough for A412:15
davidmOK that concludes prior action items12:15
StevenKogra: Did you see the new UNR image!12:15
ograthe touchscreen situation is very bad though12:15
StevenKMy blood, sweat and tears are all through that image!12:15
ograStevenK, i tried yesterdays because of the touchscreens12:15
davidmpersia, would you be so kind as to lead the roadmap review?12:15
ograits great12:16
persia[topic] roadmap review12:16
StevenK... so be sure to wash your hands and your USB key12:16
ograStevenK, latest evtouch should at least recieve taps ... i have to fix the issues with movement events though12:16
persiadavidm, No.  Just topic each item in the list, and the assigned person will say someting.12:16
davidm[topic]  roadmap review12:17
persia(MootBot doesn't like me)12:17
MootBotNew Topic:   roadmap review12:17
davidm[topic] offline-installer12:17
MootBotNew Topic:  offline-installer12:17
ograwell, my build-arm-rootfs script seems to be widely used12:17
ogranext step is to work out a way to do the same with d-i and preseeding12:18
ograadditionally we need to discuss how to combine the livefses and kernels12:18
ogralivefses for armel are available since last night12:18
persiaIsn't that just dropping the installed kernel package into the livefs?12:18
ograd-i images as well12:18
ograpersia, FSVO "just" yes12:18
persiaOh, right, the kernel d-i udebs.12:19
ograits actually "installing the kernel package inside the livefs in a VM12:19
ograand then re-roll the livefs12:19
StevenKpersia: Please link the roadmap for lazy people who aren't sure they have it open?12:19
ograStevenK, its linked on the agenda12:19
davidm[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap12:19
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap12:19
davidmogra, you done?12:20
ograthats it so far about offline-installer, yes12:20
davidm[topic] unr-handling-jaunty12:20
MootBotNew Topic:  unr-handling-jaunty12:20
* davidm needs to program his keyboard with Mootbot shortcuts ;-P12:21
StevenKThe UNR image this week has gotten new versions of the launcher, maximus and other fun things, and looks to be shaping up well12:21
StevenKbfiller has gone insane and has prodded upstream about a few issues and filed a mass of bugs12:21
ograit looks great !12:21
* StevenK does the happy dance12:21
StevenKI'm hoping to install it on my Q1 before I leave12:21
persiaStevenK, Are you pushing a new -meta soon?12:22
StevenKpersia: For?12:22
StevenKI pushed one before I left for dinner12:22
persiaAh, then my cache is just old :)12:22
StevenK1.131 was published 6 hours ago12:22
persiaRIght.  I'll fight with apt.  Moving on...12:23
davidmI just installed Intrepid on my brand spanking new eee PC 900a had some fun getting WiFi to work, are we need to be able to solve that for Jaunty12:23
* StevenK points davidm at the kernel team12:23
* persia points davidm at the Any Other Business section of the agenda12:23
davidmThe eee PC will be a target.12:23
davidm[topic] mid-application-switcher12:24
MootBotNew Topic:  mid-application-switcher12:24
ograthere are DKMSified drivers in stgraber's PPA for the eee12:24
persiaHaven't started work.  Am expecting to have time to start next week.12:24
ograi can give you a link after the meeting12:24
ograkernel team should just include them12:25
StevenKSpeaking of the kernel team!12:25
ograpoor cking ... entering at the wrong moment :P12:26
* StevenK grins12:26
davidmpersia, you done?12:27
persiaYes.  Just bump to the next for these after a line or two, if there's no response, or we'll run over.12:27
davidm[topic] mobile-setup-wizard12:27
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-setup-wizard12:27
persiaNeed to test: see my action item :) Should have a set of work to be done ready tomorrow, but don't expect it to be done until Alpha 5.12:28
davidm[topic] mobile-team-seed-management12:28
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-team-seed-management12:28
davidmStevenK, ^^12:29
StevenKYeah, thinking12:29
StevenKIt's mostly done, aside from the last bit which I'm waiting for archive reorg12:29
persiaLast week it was basically pending: do we want to block it on deeper specification of archive reorg?12:29
StevenKI'd rather we declare it done12:29
persiaAnd have the other bit be ad-hoc fallout of archive-reorg?12:30
davidm[topic] ship-seed-for-mobile-images12:30
MootBotNew Topic:  ship-seed-for-mobile-images12:30
persiaI'm fine with that, so long as it gets documented in Unresolved Issues.12:30
ograNCommander, ^^ :)12:31
davidmGuessing from action items he has no input now12:32
ogra(hint: just say "in progress" :) )12:32
NCommanderI'll finish this up today with StevenK's assistance.12:32
davidm[topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen12:32
MootBotNew Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscreen12:32
ogralooks very bad12:32
ogranone of my touchscreens work with evdev12:32
ograupstram are liars :P12:32
ograso i'm currently working first prio on getting evtouch back in shape to avoid regressions12:33
ograi *will* look into evdev and do what i can, but want to avoid us to release without a working solution12:33
ograso that spec might become jaunty+1 depending on upstream12:34
davidm[topic] arm-softboot-loader12:34
MootBotNew Topic:  arm-softboot-loader12:34
NCommanderWell, some good, some bad12:34
NCommanderkexec is still broken on ARM (my patch doesn't work on real hardware)12:34
NCommanderOn Freescale's HW, we still can't boot an initramfs from RedBoot (I did poke jerone about this)12:35
davidmNCommander, you done12:36
NCommanderStill typing12:36
NCommanderOn the plus side, ogra came up with IMHO a very impress shell script based menu that parses grub's menu.lst and spits out a nice ASCII menu; I am planning to package this, and a modified kexec package so we can generate an initramfs on x86/amd64/etc. to test this, and to work on getting such packages in the archive12:36
NCommanderI also plan to try and bring futher discussion of this in #u-arm.12:36
* NCommander is done.12:36
ograwell, it can parse any kind of file, not only menu.lst12:37
davidm[topic] mid-jaunty-launcher12:37
MootBotNew Topic:  mid-jaunty-launcher12:37
StevenKNeed time12:37
ograkourou !12:37
davidm[topic] selection-of-arm-images12:38
MootBotNew Topic:  selection-of-arm-images12:38
ograimage side is done, we have live, d-i and server images12:38
StevenKI've not had time to draft the parts of the spec/picking out what needs to be done12:38
StevenKdavidm: I wasn't done yet!12:38
StevenK(I am now)12:38
ograrest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for kernels12:38
davidm[topic] StevenK sorry12:38
MootBotNew Topic:  StevenK sorry12:38
StevenKLike that needed a seperate topic12:38
davidm[topic] selection-of-arm-images12:39
MootBotNew Topic:  selection-of-arm-images12:39
ograwell, what i said above :)12:39
* davidm has to stop prequeuing12:39
ograogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images12:39
ogra<ogra> rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for actual kernels12:39
ogradone ...12:39
davidm[topic] mid-screen-rotation12:39
MootBotNew Topic:  mid-screen-rotation12:39
ogranot started yet, but since its a trivial gui that will take me only a day12:40
persiaSafe to target for Alpha 5?12:40
ograi'll kick it off probably in a spare hour at the sprint12:40
ograA5 should be fine12:40
ogradoes the spec define a language to be used ?12:40
davidm[action] target mid-screen-rotation for A512:40
MootBotACTION received:  target mid-screen-rotation for A512:40
davidm[topic] mid-display-manager12:41
MootBotNew Topic:  mid-display-manager12:41
persiaogra, Nope, although it presumes python.12:41
ogra(C or python ?)12:41
ograC will be smaller though12:41
davidmogra, either is fine12:41
davidmlool, mid-display-manager??12:42
loolWe discussed the implementation with Emmet shortly; no other update.12:42
davidm[topic] hildon-packaging-jaunty12:42
MootBotNew Topic:  hildon-packaging-jaunty12:42
persiaI' m about 60% drafted locally: should post for review in the next couple days.12:43
davidm[topic] lpia-versus-i38612:44
MootBotNew Topic:  lpia-versus-i38612:44
loolWill discuss with cjwatson and doko over the sprint along other toolchain changes.  (Nothing else to report on lpia-versus-i386.)12:44
davidm[topic] mobile-applications12:44
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-applications12:44
persiaI've mostly wrestled it into an actual spec, but will need input.  Will be sending reminder email in a couple hours.12:44
davidm[topic] mobile-spec-cleanup12:45
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup12:45
persiaHaven't touched it, and don't expect to get back to it until FF.12:45
davidm[topic] recovery-partition12:45
MootBotNew Topic:  recovery-partition12:45
StevenKBut it doesn't get blocked by FF \o/12:46
loolNo progress this week.  High on my TODO list along the other high priority stuff.  (Nothing else to report on recovery-partition.)12:46
davidmthat concludes roadmap review12:46
davidm[topic] Other Business12:46
MootBotNew Topic:  Other Business12:46
* ogra really likes the productivity of the new meeting structure12:47
persiaWifi drivers for the Eee.12:47
StevenKWe're nearly done and there's still 13 minutes to go12:47
davidmYes, WiFi drivers for eee PC12:47
ograhttps://launchpad.net/~stgraber/+archive/ppa has a rt2860 driver package12:47
ograworking fine with DKMS12:47
ograit would be good to get that merged into our kernel if legally possible12:48
ogra(not sure what holds it back or if that hanst actually happened in jaunty even)12:48
cjwatsonogra: (for the record, livefses for armel have been available for a lot longer than since last night)12:48
ogracjwatson, *publically* available :)12:48
davidmwe will need to look into WiFi status to see how it can be solved.  Took me a couple of hours  to track down a working solution for the 900a, and 30 minutes to compile and install same.12:50
davidmWill need solutions for 700 900 and 100012:50
ograright, the DKMS solution is way cleaner and will update automatically with the kernel12:50
StevenKdavidm: I think the kernel team is the first port of call12:50
davidmAgreed, I'll explore with pgraner12:50
davidm[action] davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week12:51
MootBotACTION received:  davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week12:51
davidmOK any other business?  Or I can close the meeting/12:51
ograi think the 700 is supported OOTB btw12:51
ograusing ath5k12:52
StevenKYes, I have one12:52
StevenKAre we having a meeting next week?12:52
ograwe probably should try12:52
davidmStevenK, I think so we can have it from sprint12:52
davidmEasy enough I think unless bandwidth is too poor12:53
StevenKHaving an IRC meeting at 1pm will be a novelty12:53
cjwatsonbandwidth will not be great12:53
ogranot really :P12:53
cjwatsonapparently the hotel has only given us 40% of what we asked for12:53
ogrado we have local mirrors ?12:53
davidmcjwatson, yes I saw that but I think we can sneak IRC through12:53
cjwatsonso it'll be 2Mbit12:54
cjwatsonogra: yes12:54
* davidm crosses fingers12:54
ograworked fine in london that way12:54
StevenKcjwatson: Oh good. It will feel just like home12:54
NCommanderand 200 people from Canonical?12:54
cjwatson200? since when?12:54
cjwatsonthis is a distro sprint, not allhands12:54
ograNCommander, we dont all bring our families12:54
davidmStevenK, nah, it will still be a meg more then you have at home12:54
cjwatsonpeople will have to be reasonably parsimonious about bandwidth12:54
* StevenK glares at davidm 12:55
* NCommander notes to download all Ubuntu ISOs before he leaves12:55
StevenKdavidm: I have 1.5Mbit, thank you oh so much12:55
davidmOK sounds like we don't have anything else so endmeeting going once12:55
ograNCommander, we'll have local mirrors, i hope that includes cdimage12:55
cjwatsonNCommander: we'll have a local cdimage mirror12:55
ograsnap :)12:55
davidmStevenK, but OZ only has 1 Meg off the land ;-)12:55
StevenKOh, thank $DEITY12:56
StevenKrsyncing images to test won't suck, then12:56
NCommanderyay for !suck12:56
ograberlin has lots of cafes with free wlan though ;)12:56
StevenKI'll just need to remember to copy said images to my laptop12:56
ograwe culd just swarm out12:56
davidm endmeeting going twice12:56
MootBotMeeting finished at 06:57.12:57
davidmThanks everyone12:57
NCommanderamazing, we finished a meeting with time to spare12:58
StevenKOoh, 3 minutes12:59
persiaWho's here for the Java meeting?14:02
persiaAgenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting14:03
persiaNo special agenda items this time.14:03
persiarobilad is missing: Do we want to keep that on the RoadMap?  It's been a while since there was any activity.14:04
persiaIf nothing else, might be good to try to specify things in more detail there.14:04
slytherinpersia: I will mail him asking to update roadmap14:07
persiaslytherin, OK.  I'm in favour of making Java servers work, but it needs someone driving :)14:08
persiaNext up: MoveToUniverse: is there anything significant still pending?  Work to be done?14:09
slytherinjboss packages moved to universe. :-)14:09
* ScottK is curious if there will be any discussion about packaging policy?14:09
persiaThat was the last big chunk, right?  The rest require licensing issues?14:09
slytherinProbably. The only one I am planning to file bug for is worldwind.14:10
persiaScottK, It's not on the agenda, but can be raised after the Roadmap.14:10
persiaslytherin, OK.  When you get that sorted, maybe move it to Done ?14:10
KoonScottK: yep, i'll summarize the current thread14:10
slytherinpersia: sure14:10
persiaKoon, Maven (and let's leave glassfish/geronimo until after)14:10
slytherinI have just one last update.14:11
persiaRight.  Still MoveToUniverse then.14:11
slytherinthere are two jboss related packages in depwait in universe, libjboss-cache2-java and libjboss-buildmagic-java. buildmagic is circular build dep (on itself) and cache2 has build dep on a package which is not even in Debian.14:11
persiabuildmagic can be sorted by special application to the buildd admins to do a manual build once.  Has a request been made?14:12
slytherinNo. I haven't even checked if the circular dep is actually required14:12
slytherinIt would be great if someone can take over the work.14:13
persiaAnd what's the issue with cache2?  How do we resolve that?  New package in pkg-java?14:13
slytherinpersia: probably look into Torsten's personal repository for the package and if it is found ask him to upload to Debian so we can do a sync14:13
persiaSo it sounds like these aren't big issues, but it's just a time thing?14:14
slytherinyes, and I am tired of solving the circular build deps. :-(14:14
persiaRight.  Maybe issue a call for help to the mailing list?14:16
persiaAnything else on MoveToUniverse?14:17
persiaOK.  Moving to maven : Koon?14:19
KoonFor Maven we are working on converging approaches with Debian. I'll meet with doko and Torsten next week to discuss that.14:19
KoonThe approaches are mostly the same (no Maven patch), I just have to make sure our use cases are covered. And Torsten knows a lot more about Maven/Java than I do so his approach is probably better14:19
persiaDo you think we'll hit Jaunty, or is it likely jaunty+1?14:20
KoonLooking at recent progress I think we may be able to hit Jaunty. It all depends on Torsten though, since we'll most likely sync his work14:21
persiaAnd that includes ludovicc's work?14:21
slytherinyes, AFAIK.14:22
Koonludovicc has been working on the tools together with Torsten.14:22
persiaOK.  That sounds like a good plan.  Looking forward to next week.14:22
persiaAnything else for maven?14:22
persiaOK.  For Removing Java 5:14:23
persiaI got as far as registering the spec14:23
persia(https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/java5-removal) but haven't drafted it.14:23
persiaI have a couple script fragments slytherin put together earlier, and expect to have something for review by the next meeting.14:23
persiaNot yet sure how to get the spec approved, but I'll try to get that sorted as well.14:23
persiaAnd that's where we are.14:24
persiaNow, anyone have other items they want to raise?14:24
slytherinnone from my side.14:24
ScottKI'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.14:25
KoonNo conclusion yet...14:25
Koongeneral position from the ML answers so far seem to be to keep the clean approach we've had until now... do the packages we can from source and binary-package those we can't.14:25
Kooninfluence upstream to be compatible with the stack we provide14:25
ScottKI'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.14:26
ScottKSorrt for the double post14:26
persiaThe pointers to JPackage were interesting: is there much we can share there, or did they fall into the trap of specified versions?14:26
ScottKSorry even14:26
KoonNo they didn't fall into that trap14:26
persiaIt just sort of lost momentum?14:27
KoonMy impression is that their appraoch (as well as ours) doesn't scale well14:27
ScottKOne point that I don't think got much mention on the list is that code copies are a security nightmare.14:27
Koonat one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others14:27
persiaI just don't understand how that's special for Java, as compared to other languages.14:27
ScottKpersia: Which 'that'?14:28
persiaThere's a somewhat related thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss about jabref, and when responding to that I noticed just *how* much random embedded stuff ended up in some .jar files.14:28
persiaScottK, "at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others".14:28
KoonScottK: I think everyone knows that code duplication is bad for security (hopefully)14:28
ScottKI think it's particularly relevant here because at least one proposal is particulalry bad in that regard.14:29
persiaScottK, Well, the "binary-in-multiverse" is bad in that regard too.14:30
persiaThe issue is more that upstreams tend to try to bundle everything, rather than working with their upstreams.14:30
Koonunfortunately in most cases it's not pure code duplication. It's duplication of code that exist in an API-incompatible version somewhere else14:30
ScottKAgreed, but I think in Multiverse there is no suggestion that things are supportable from a security perspective.14:31
Koonpure code duplicates are easy to solve with a couple symlinks and Depends: entries14:31
ScottKThis is a lot like the Ruby Gems argument we had last cycle.14:31
ScottKI don't know of a good answer beyone help upstream gain some sanity.14:31
persiaWell, it's also user education.  Many users don't actually care about it (cf. Jabref thread).14:32
KoonI still kinda hope we can build from source + a static API description14:32
persiaThey just download something from a website that works cross-platform that also works in Ubuntu.14:32
Koonbecause imho there is no technical reason to require the presence of the binary artifact14:33
Koonfor bytecode generation14:33
persiaKoon, That's an interesting idea, but I wonder why the API is being checked.14:33
ScottKI think there is some good work to be done around this.14:33
Koonmaven proved that you can generate bytecode with one version and use another one at runtime14:33
persiaAlso, how do we confirm that the checked API matches that of our packaged library?14:33
ScottKUntil we have a good way to support this, there's really not much reason to put it in the archive, IMO.14:34
persiaScottK, Well, I'd argue that anything with sufficient user demand would benefit from mirroring support, etc. (even in multiverse).14:34
persiaLets us do things like track a version that was tested, and worked at release time.14:35
Koonyes, it all depends how bad the software is wanted14:35
Koonit's just not something we would recommend as a general way of doing things14:35
ScottKExcept if it's GPL, I don't think we can just toss a binary blob over the fence and declare victory.14:35
persiaOh, certainly.  Copyleft licenses are special that way.14:36
persiaBSD/X/ISC/CDDL are a little more forgiving.14:36
* slytherin has to be away for some work. will be in 15-20 minutes14:36
ScottKIf users can download it from a web site and have it work, until it's actually maintainable, I'd suggest let them do that, but that's just me.14:37
persiaErr, except CDDL is copyleft, so scratch that one.14:37
KoonThere is no Java compilation option allowing to ignore method checking... but maybe we could talk with Sun about this. That would /so/help14:37
persiaThey tend to have presence at UDS: let's make sure it's one of the items for discussion in May.14:38
Kooni'm pretty sure it would generate the very same binaries14:38
ScottKI think that's the kind of thinking we need now...  What are the tools we need to make these Java amalgamations distro friendly.14:38
persiaThere's usually only one Java session, about the JDK/JRE, but having a couple might let us explore more topics (if there is room).14:38
ScottKI think figure policy and tools for the long run and then figure out how to get there.14:38
Koonsidenote: robilad discussed API tracking tools that Sun wants to more closely integrate in future Java14:39
KoonSo there is definitely room for improvement14:40
persiaYeah.  There's a lot of thought about hjaving Java7 be sensibly modular, and encouraging use of common libraries.14:40
persiaIt's just that Java7 is always rather future.14:40
KoonSo I'd use temporary workarounds rather than policy transhing14:40
Koonto get the Java software we may require in today14:40
ScottKI'd encourage you to make very sure you have a broad consensus on how you decide to approach that.14:41
persiaWell, most of the workarounds end up pushing to multiverse, where there's much less worry.14:41
persiaHow much consensus is required?14:41
Koonpersia: or restricted ?14:41
ScottKRestricted is for drivers.14:42
persiaKoon, No, not restricted.14:42
persiaKoon, The incentive to have things in restricted ought be going away before any of these stacks are in shape to be considered.14:42
ScottKKoon: I think if it stays in multiverse and is legal (no GPL/CDDL blobs), then not a lot.14:42
ScottKBut whatever approach is taken, it needs to be documented and get some community review.14:43
persiaSo, anything else about this packaging thread, or are we done?14:47
Koonnothing from my side14:48
persiaOK.  Anyone else have anything to raise?14:48
persiaIn that case, meeting adjourned.14:49
persiaThank you all for coming, and we'll do it again next week.14:49
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