[11:57]  * ogra waves 
[11:57]  * StevenK shores
[11:57]  * ogra waits for StevenK to make his std. joke
[11:57]  * StevenK smirks
[11:57] <ogra> :)
[11:57]  * NCommander thinks stdjoke should be added to the next revision of the C language
[11:57] <NCommander> :-)
[11:58] <StevenK> MootBot!
[11:58] <StevenK> Yay!
[11:58] <NCommander> Its the first time its been here since I joined Canonical :-)
[11:59]  * NCommander hugs MootBot 
[12:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[12:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:00] <davidm> mobile meeting is started :-)
[12:00] <NCommander> awesome
[12:01] <davidm> persia, do we not have a meeting scheduled today?
[12:01] <persia> We do have a meeting scheduled today.
[12:01]  * lool waves
[12:01] <persia> The bot doesn't track the schedule due to a bug.
[12:01] <davidm> Ah that explains it then
[12:01] <davidm> Thanks
[12:02] <davidm> We have a few todos from last week
[12:02] <davidm> first persia you ran last weeks meeting correct?
[12:02] <persia> I did.
[12:03] <davidm> thank you
[12:03] <lool> NCommander: You're running the next BTW IIUC
[12:03] <persia> On the other hand, I didn't actually test oem-setup this week.  I'll try for tomorrow.
[12:03] <NCommander> Do we have a meeting next week due to Germany?
[12:03] <davidm> [topic] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard
[12:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard
[12:03] <persia> I didn't run that test.  I'll try for tomorrow.
[12:03] <davidm> [action] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)
[12:03] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)
[12:04] <davidm> [topic] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it
[12:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it
[12:04] <StevenK> That just needs the spec written and then it can be marked Implemented
[12:04]  * NCommander didn't even see that he was assigned to me.
[12:04] <StevenK> Er
[12:04] <StevenK> s/written/finished off/
[12:05] <davidm> NCommander, can you get to it today?
[12:05] <persia> No, it needs a test plan, and to be tested, and it's gone.
[12:05] <NCommander> davidm, sure, no problem.
[12:05] <NCommander> Was this assigned to me last meeting, or just now?
[12:05] <StevenK> persia: Ah, right
[12:05] <persia> NCommander, Last meeting.
[12:05] <NCommander> hrm
[12:05] <davidm> [action] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan
[12:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan
[12:06] <StevenK> NCommander: I will tell you how to test it, then you can write the test plan and actually test it
[12:06] <davidm> [topic] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
[12:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
[12:06] <NCommander> StevenK, thanks, I just changed the assignee in Launchpad
[12:07] <persia> NCommander, No, don't change the Assignee: you're "Drafter", StevenK is Assignee (and did the implementation)
[12:07] <NCommander> Oh
[12:07] <NCommander> I didn't change the spec, but discussion hasn't gone anywhere. People who have ARM hardware have a sane(ish) booting solution, so there isn't much coming from #u-arm
[12:07]  * persia didn't see any discussion there at all
[12:07]  * ogra still doesnt call a serial console "sane" :)
[12:08] <NCommander> +1 ogra
[12:08] <davidm> Do I need to carry over the topic?
[12:08] <persia> Yes.
[12:08] <davidm> or do we have something else in it's place?
[12:08] <lool> I think it's too early to pursue implementation of shism
[12:08] <ogra> do we still want it ?
[12:08] <NCommander> Yes, but I'm not expecting to get much out of #u-arm
[12:08] <ogra> shism ? :)
[12:08] <ogra> heh
[12:08] <lool> I'd say it's pretty clear we will want bootable SD cards
[12:08] <lool> But not sure
[12:09] <NCommander> We have a set of patches for redboot to start extending it in that matter
[12:09] <lool> If we need a way to send redboot over a serial port or stuff it in a SD card image, we have to package redboot
[12:09] <davidm> [action] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)
[12:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)
[12:09] <ogra> lool, but bootable SD can also carry a dd'ed preconfigured bootloader
[12:10] <lool> Which bootloader?
[12:10] <ogra> the one for the target arch
[12:10] <davidm> I don't think we really want to touch the bootloaders, the board vendors should be doing that work I think
[12:10] <ogra> whatever that is for this specific one
[12:10] <lool> ogra: So we need it in the archive, right?
[12:10] <NCommander> I think the point is that at least with the babbage we would have a bootloader on the SD card
[12:10] <ogra> lool, thats what i say since *months*
[12:10] <lool> davidm: If we have to ship it, we have to provide and maintain source for it I'm afraid
[12:10] <NCommander> (although I'm not clear how you would set the board to boot from SD vs. PATA)
[12:10] <davidm> lool, good point
[12:10]  * persia notes that there's a whole channel to discuss this in, and an action to discuss outside the meeting (and the roadmap is busy)
[12:11] <lool> ogra: And I never disagreed
[12:11] <lool> ogra: I just postponed until it was clear we needed it :)
[12:11] <davidm> I guess the babbage board does something that most boards don't the boot loader is written to the SD card and not internal flash
[12:11] <ogra> well, we should have at least something like a redboot-source and a uboot-source package
[12:11] <ogra> not sure we want/need actual binaries
[12:11] <davidm> [topic] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images
[12:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images
[12:12] <NCommander> davidm, well, as far as we know, that internal flash is going away, no idea what's happening there specifically though.
[12:12] <davidm> NCommander, agreed
[12:12] <StevenK> davidm: I did review it -- it looks good to me
[12:12] <ogra> davidm, the beagle and EVM can both boot fine with bootloader on SD
[12:12] <davidm> OK, I'll mark that as closed, thanks StevenK
[12:12] <NCommander> (side note, we are now building ARM CD images and netboot images)
[12:12] <ogra> davidm, so please approve that spec :)
[12:12] <davidm> ogra, good to know
[12:13] <ogra> i'll set it to pending approval
[12:13] <davidm> ogra, thainks
[12:13] <davidm> [topic] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications
[12:14]  * ogra whistles innocently ... 
[12:14] <persia> I made requests, but wasn't very forceful, and didn't get responses.  I'll send out a more forceful request in a couple hours.
[12:14] <persia> We *need* to get these seed changes in by Monday, or we miss Alpha 4, and there's no point.
[12:14] <davidm> thank you, I'll carry over
[12:14] <davidm> Yes and I don't want to miss A4
[12:15] <davidm> [action] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again
[12:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again
[12:15] <ogra> wll, unr and mid images look fine so far
[12:15] <ogra> *well even
[12:15] <ogra> good enough for A4
[12:15] <davidm> OK that concludes prior action items
[12:15] <StevenK> ogra: Did you see the new UNR image!
[12:15] <ogra> the touchscreen situation is very bad though
[12:15] <StevenK> My blood, sweat and tears are all through that image!
[12:15] <ogra> StevenK, i tried yesterdays because of the touchscreens
[12:15] <davidm> persia, would you be so kind as to lead the roadmap review?
[12:16] <ogra> its great
[12:16] <persia> [topic] roadmap review
[12:16] <StevenK> ... so be sure to wash your hands and your USB key
[12:16] <ogra> StevenK, latest evtouch should at least recieve taps ... i have to fix the issues with movement events though
[12:16] <persia> davidm, No.  Just topic each item in the list, and the assigned person will say someting.
[12:17] <davidm> [topic]  roadmap review
[12:17] <persia> (MootBot doesn't like me)
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:   roadmap review
[12:17] <davidm> [topic] offline-installer
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer
[12:17] <ogra> well, my build-arm-rootfs script seems to be widely used
[12:18] <ogra> next step is to work out a way to do the same with d-i and preseeding
[12:18] <ogra> additionally we need to discuss how to combine the livefses and kernels
[12:18] <ogra> livefses for armel are available since last night
[12:18] <persia> Isn't that just dropping the installed kernel package into the livefs?
[12:18] <ogra> d-i images as well
[12:18] <ogra> persia, FSVO "just" yes
[12:19] <persia> Oh, right, the kernel d-i udebs.
[12:19] <ogra> its actually "installing the kernel package inside the livefs in a VM
[12:19] <ogra> "
[12:19] <ogra> and then re-roll the livefs
[12:19] <StevenK> persia: Please link the roadmap for lazy people who aren't sure they have it open?
[12:19] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[12:19] <ogra> StevenK, its linked on the agenda
[12:19] <davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[12:19] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[12:20] <davidm> ogra, you done?
[12:20] <ogra> thats it so far about offline-installer, yes
[12:20] <davidm> [topic] unr-handling-jaunty
[12:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  unr-handling-jaunty
[12:21]  * davidm needs to program his keyboard with Mootbot shortcuts ;-P
[12:21] <StevenK> The UNR image this week has gotten new versions of the launcher, maximus and other fun things, and looks to be shaping up well
[12:21] <StevenK> bfiller has gone insane and has prodded upstream about a few issues and filed a mass of bugs
[12:21] <ogra> it looks great !
[12:21]  * StevenK does the happy dance
[12:21] <StevenK> I'm hoping to install it on my Q1 before I leave
[12:22] <persia> StevenK, Are you pushing a new -meta soon?
[12:22] <StevenK> persia: For?
[12:22] <StevenK> I pushed one before I left for dinner
[12:22] <persia> Ah, then my cache is just old :)
[12:22] <StevenK> 1.131 was published 6 hours ago
[12:23] <persia> RIght.  I'll fight with apt.  Moving on...
[12:23] <davidm> I just installed Intrepid on my brand spanking new eee PC 900a had some fun getting WiFi to work, are we need to be able to solve that for Jaunty
[12:23]  * StevenK points davidm at the kernel team
[12:23]  * persia points davidm at the Any Other Business section of the agenda
[12:23] <davidm> The eee PC will be a target.
[12:24] <davidm> [topic] mid-application-switcher
[12:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  mid-application-switcher
[12:24] <ogra> there are DKMSified drivers in stgraber's PPA for the eee
[12:24] <persia> Haven't started work.  Am expecting to have time to start next week.
[12:24] <ogra> i can give you a link after the meeting
[12:25] <ogra> kernel team should just include them
[12:25] <StevenK> Speaking of the kernel team!
[12:26] <ogra> poor cking ... entering at the wrong moment :P
[12:26]  * StevenK grins
[12:27] <davidm> persia, you done?
[12:27] <persia> Yes.  Just bump to the next for these after a line or two, if there's no response, or we'll run over.
[12:27] <davidm> [topic] mobile-setup-wizard
[12:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-setup-wizard
[12:28] <persia> Need to test: see my action item :) Should have a set of work to be done ready tomorrow, but don't expect it to be done until Alpha 5.
[12:28] <davidm> [topic] mobile-team-seed-management
[12:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-team-seed-management
[12:29] <davidm> StevenK, ^^
[12:29] <StevenK> Yeah, thinking
[12:29] <StevenK> It's mostly done, aside from the last bit which I'm waiting for archive reorg
[12:29] <persia> Last week it was basically pending: do we want to block it on deeper specification of archive reorg?
[12:29] <StevenK> I'd rather we declare it done
[12:30] <persia> And have the other bit be ad-hoc fallout of archive-reorg?
[12:30] <StevenK> Sure
[12:30] <davidm> [topic] ship-seed-for-mobile-images
[12:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  ship-seed-for-mobile-images
[12:30] <persia> I'm fine with that, so long as it gets documented in Unresolved Issues.
[12:31] <ogra> NCommander, ^^ :)
[12:32] <davidm> Guessing from action items he has no input now
[12:32] <ogra> (hint: just say "in progress" :) )
[12:32] <NCommander> I'll finish this up today with StevenK's assistance.
[12:32] <davidm> [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen
[12:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscreen
[12:32] <ogra> looks very bad
[12:32] <ogra> none of my touchscreens work with evdev
[12:32] <ogra> upstram are liars :P
[12:33] <StevenK> Haha
[12:33] <ogra> so i'm currently working first prio on getting evtouch back in shape to avoid regressions
[12:33] <ogra> i *will* look into evdev and do what i can, but want to avoid us to release without a working solution
[12:34] <ogra> so that spec might become jaunty+1 depending on upstream
[12:34] <davidm> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
[12:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
[12:34] <NCommander> Well, some good, some bad
[12:34] <NCommander> kexec is still broken on ARM (my patch doesn't work on real hardware)
[12:35] <NCommander> On Freescale's HW, we still can't boot an initramfs from RedBoot (I did poke jerone about this)
[12:36] <davidm> NCommander, you done
[12:36] <NCommander> ?
[12:36] <NCommander> No
[12:36] <NCommander> Still typing
[12:36] <NCommander> On the plus side, ogra came up with IMHO a very impress shell script based menu that parses grub's menu.lst and spits out a nice ASCII menu; I am planning to package this, and a modified kexec package so we can generate an initramfs on x86/amd64/etc. to test this, and to work on getting such packages in the archive
[12:36] <NCommander> I also plan to try and bring futher discussion of this in #u-arm.
[12:36]  * NCommander is done.
[12:37] <ogra> well, it can parse any kind of file, not only menu.lst
[12:37] <davidm> [topic] mid-jaunty-launcher
[12:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  mid-jaunty-launcher
[12:37] <StevenK> Need time
[12:37] <ogra> kourou !
[12:38] <davidm> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
[12:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
[12:38] <ogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images
[12:38] <StevenK> I've not had time to draft the parts of the spec/picking out what needs to be done
[12:38] <StevenK> davidm: I wasn't done yet!
[12:38] <StevenK> (I am now)
[12:38] <ogra> rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for kernels
[12:38] <davidm> [topic] StevenK sorry
[12:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK sorry
[12:38] <StevenK> Like that needed a seperate topic
[12:39] <davidm> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
[12:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
[12:39] <ogra> well, what i said above :)
[12:39]  * davidm has to stop prequeuing
[12:39] <ogra> ogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images
 rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for actual kernels
[12:39] <ogra> done ...
[12:39] <davidm> [topic] mid-screen-rotation
[12:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  mid-screen-rotation
[12:40] <ogra> not started yet, but since its a trivial gui that will take me only a day
[12:40] <persia> Safe to target for Alpha 5?
[12:40] <ogra> i'll kick it off probably in a spare hour at the sprint
[12:40] <ogra> yeah
[12:40] <ogra> A5 should be fine
[12:40] <ogra> does the spec define a language to be used ?
[12:40] <davidm> [action] target mid-screen-rotation for A5
[12:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  target mid-screen-rotation for A5
[12:41] <davidm> [topic] mid-display-manager
[12:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  mid-display-manager
[12:41] <persia> ogra, Nope, although it presumes python.
[12:41] <ogra> (C or python ?)
[12:41] <ogra> C will be smaller though
[12:41] <davidm> ogra, either is fine
[12:41] <ogra> oki
[12:42] <davidm> lool, mid-display-manager??
[12:42] <lool> We discussed the implementation with Emmet shortly; no other update.
[12:42] <davidm> [topic] hildon-packaging-jaunty
[12:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  hildon-packaging-jaunty
[12:43] <persia> I' m about 60% drafted locally: should post for review in the next couple days.
[12:44] <davidm> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
[12:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
[12:44] <lool> Will discuss with cjwatson and doko over the sprint along other toolchain changes.  (Nothing else to report on lpia-versus-i386.)
[12:44] <davidm> [topic] mobile-applications
[12:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-applications
[12:44] <persia> I've mostly wrestled it into an actual spec, but will need input.  Will be sending reminder email in a couple hours.
[12:45] <davidm> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:45] <persia> Haven't touched it, and don't expect to get back to it until FF.
[12:45] <davidm> [topic] recovery-partition
[12:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  recovery-partition
[12:46] <StevenK> But it doesn't get blocked by FF \o/
[12:46] <lool> No progress this week.  High on my TODO list along the other high priority stuff.  (Nothing else to report on recovery-partition.)
[12:46] <davidm> that concludes roadmap review
[12:46] <ogra> yay
[12:46] <davidm> [topic] Other Business
[12:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Business
[12:47]  * ogra really likes the productivity of the new meeting structure
[12:47] <StevenK> Yup.
[12:47] <NCommander> same
[12:47] <persia> Wifi drivers for the Eee.
[12:47] <StevenK> We're nearly done and there's still 13 minutes to go
[12:47] <davidm> Yes, WiFi drivers for eee PC
[12:47] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/~stgraber/+archive/ppa has a rt2860 driver package
[12:47] <ogra> working fine with DKMS
[12:48] <ogra> it would be good to get that merged into our kernel if legally possible
[12:48] <ogra> (not sure what holds it back or if that hanst actually happened in jaunty even)
[12:48] <cjwatson> ogra: (for the record, livefses for armel have been available for a lot longer than since last night)
[12:48] <ogra> *hasnt
[12:48] <ogra> cjwatson, *publically* available :)
[12:50] <davidm> we will need to look into WiFi status to see how it can be solved.  Took me a couple of hours  to track down a working solution for the 900a, and 30 minutes to compile and install same.
[12:50] <davidm> Will need solutions for 700 900 and 1000
[12:50] <ogra> right, the DKMS solution is way cleaner and will update automatically with the kernel
[12:50] <StevenK> davidm: I think the kernel team is the first port of call
[12:50] <ogra> ++
[12:50] <davidm> Agreed, I'll explore with pgraner
[12:51] <davidm> [action] davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week
[12:51] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week
[12:51] <davidm> OK any other business?  Or I can close the meeting/
[12:51] <ogra> i think the 700 is supported OOTB btw
[12:52] <ogra> using ath5k
[12:52] <StevenK> Yes, I have one
[12:52] <StevenK> Are we having a meeting next week?
[12:52] <ogra> we probably should try
[12:52] <davidm> StevenK, I think so we can have it from sprint
[12:53] <davidm> Easy enough I think unless bandwidth is too poor
[12:53] <StevenK> Having an IRC meeting at 1pm will be a novelty
[12:53] <cjwatson> bandwidth will not be great
[12:53] <ogra> not really :P
[12:53] <cjwatson> apparently the hotel has only given us 40% of what we asked for
[12:53] <ogra> bah
[12:53] <ogra> do we have local mirrors ?
[12:53] <davidm> cjwatson, yes I saw that but I think we can sneak IRC through
[12:54] <cjwatson> so it'll be 2Mbit
[12:54] <cjwatson> ogra: yes
[12:54]  * davidm crosses fingers
[12:54] <ogra> worked fine in london that way
[12:54] <NCommander> O_O;
[12:54] <NCommander> 2Mb?
[12:54] <StevenK> cjwatson: Oh good. It will feel just like home
[12:54] <NCommander> and 200 people from Canonical?
[12:54] <NCommander> ....
[12:54] <davidm> synchronous
[12:54] <cjwatson> 200? since when?
[12:54] <ogra> heh
[12:54] <cjwatson> this is a distro sprint, not allhands
[12:54] <NCommander> Oh
[12:54] <NCommander> *coughs*
[12:54] <NCommander> Ok
[12:54] <StevenK> Fail
[12:54] <ogra> NCommander, we dont all bring our families
[12:54] <StevenK> Haha
[12:54] <davidm> StevenK, nah, it will still be a meg more then you have at home
[12:54] <cjwatson> people will have to be reasonably parsimonious about bandwidth
[12:55]  * StevenK glares at davidm 
[12:55]  * NCommander notes to download all Ubuntu ISOs before he leaves
[12:55] <StevenK> davidm: I have 1.5Mbit, thank you oh so much
[12:55] <davidm> OK sounds like we don't have anything else so endmeeting going once
[12:55] <ogra> NCommander, we'll have local mirrors, i hope that includes cdimage
[12:55] <cjwatson> NCommander: we'll have a local cdimage mirror
[12:55] <ogra> snap :)
[12:55] <davidm> StevenK, but OZ only has 1 Meg off the land ;-)
[12:56] <ogra> haha
[12:56] <StevenK> Oh, thank $DEITY
[12:56] <StevenK> rsyncing images to test won't suck, then
[12:56] <NCommander> yay for !suck
[12:56] <ogra> berlin has lots of cafes with free wlan though ;)
[12:56] <StevenK> I'll just need to remember to copy said images to my laptop
[12:56] <ogra> we culd just swarm out
[12:56] <davidm>  endmeeting going twice
[12:57] <davidm> #endmeeting
[12:57] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:57.
[12:57] <davidm> Thanks everyone
[12:58] <ogra> thanks
[12:58] <NCommander> amazing, we finished a meeting with time to spare
[12:59] <StevenK> Ooh, 3 minutes
[14:02] <persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
[14:02] <Koon> o/
[14:03] <slytherin> me
[14:03] <persia> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[14:03] <persia> No special agenda items this time.
[14:04] <persia> robilad is missing: Do we want to keep that on the RoadMap?  It's been a while since there was any activity.
[14:04] <persia> If nothing else, might be good to try to specify things in more detail there.
[14:07] <slytherin> persia: I will mail him asking to update roadmap
[14:08] <persia> slytherin, OK.  I'm in favour of making Java servers work, but it needs someone driving :)
[14:09] <persia> Next up: MoveToUniverse: is there anything significant still pending?  Work to be done?
[14:09] <slytherin> jboss packages moved to universe. :-)
[14:09]  * ScottK is curious if there will be any discussion about packaging policy?
[14:09] <persia> That was the last big chunk, right?  The rest require licensing issues?
[14:10] <slytherin> Probably. The only one I am planning to file bug for is worldwind.
[14:10] <persia> ScottK, It's not on the agenda, but can be raised after the Roadmap.
[14:10] <persia> slytherin, OK.  When you get that sorted, maybe move it to Done ?
[14:10] <Koon> ScottK: yep, i'll summarize the current thread
[14:10] <slytherin> persia: sure
[14:10] <persia> Koon, Maven (and let's leave glassfish/geronimo until after)
[14:11] <slytherin> wait
[14:11] <slytherin> I have just one last update.
[14:11] <persia> Right.  Still MoveToUniverse then.
[14:11] <slytherin> ﻿﻿﻿there are two jboss related packages in depwait in universe, libjboss-cache2-java and libjboss-buildmagic-java. buildmagic is circular build dep (on itself) and cache2 has build dep on a package which is not even in Debian.
[14:12] <persia> buildmagic can be sorted by special application to the buildd admins to do a manual build once.  Has a request been made?
[14:12] <slytherin> No. I haven't even checked if the circular dep is actually required
[14:13] <slytherin> It would be great if someone can take over the work.
[14:13] <persia> And what's the issue with cache2?  How do we resolve that?  New package in pkg-java?
[14:13] <slytherin> persia: probably look into Torsten's personal repository for the package and if it is found ask him to upload to Debian so we can do a sync
[14:14] <persia> So it sounds like these aren't big issues, but it's just a time thing?
[14:14] <slytherin> yes, and I am tired of solving the circular build deps. :-(
[14:16] <persia> Right.  Maybe issue a call for help to the mailing list?
[14:17] <persia> Anything else on MoveToUniverse?
[14:19] <persia> OK.  Moving to maven : Koon?
[14:19] <Koon> For Maven we are working on converging approaches with Debian. I'll meet with doko and Torsten next week to discuss that.
[14:19] <Koon> The approaches are mostly the same (no Maven patch), I just have to make sure our use cases are covered. And Torsten knows a lot more about Maven/Java than I do so his approach is probably better
[14:20] <persia> Do you think we'll hit Jaunty, or is it likely jaunty+1?
[14:21] <Koon> Looking at recent progress I think we may be able to hit Jaunty. It all depends on Torsten though, since we'll most likely sync his work
[14:21] <persia> And that includes ludovicc's work?
[14:22] <slytherin> yes, AFAIK.
[14:22] <Koon> ludovicc has been working on the tools together with Torsten.
[14:22] <persia> OK.  That sounds like a good plan.  Looking forward to next week.
[14:22] <Koon> definitely
[14:22] <persia> Anything else for maven?
[14:22] <Koon> Nope.
[14:23] <persia> OK.  For Removing Java 5:
[14:23] <persia> I got as far as registering the spec
[14:23] <persia> (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/java5-removal) but haven't drafted it.
[14:23] <persia> I have a couple script fragments slytherin put together earlier, and expect to have something for review by the next meeting.
[14:23] <persia> Not yet sure how to get the spec approved, but I'll try to get that sorted as well.
[14:24] <persia> And that's where we are.
[14:24] <persia> Now, anyone have other items they want to raise?
[14:24] <slytherin> none from my side.
[14:25] <ScottK> I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.
[14:25] <Koon> No conclusion yet...
[14:25] <Koon> general position from the ML answers so far seem to be to keep the clean approach we've had until now... do the packages we can from source and binary-package those we can't.
[14:25] <Koon> influence upstream to be compatible with the stack we provide
[14:26] <ScottK> I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.
[14:26] <ScottK> Sorrt for the double post
[14:26] <persia> The pointers to JPackage were interesting: is there much we can share there, or did they fall into the trap of specified versions?
[14:26] <ScottK> Sorry even
[14:26] <Koon> No they didn't fall into that trap
[14:27] <persia> It just sort of lost momentum?
[14:27] <Koon> My impression is that their appraoch (as well as ours) doesn't scale well
[14:27] <ScottK> One point that I don't think got much mention on the list is that code copies are a security nightmare.
[14:27] <Koon> at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others
[14:27] <persia> I just don't understand how that's special for Java, as compared to other languages.
[14:28] <ScottK> persia: Which 'that'?
[14:28] <persia> There's a somewhat related thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss about jabref, and when responding to that I noticed just *how* much random embedded stuff ended up in some .jar files.
[14:28] <persia> ScottK, "at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others".
[14:28] <Koon> ScottK: I think everyone knows that code duplication is bad for security (hopefully)
[14:29] <ScottK> I think it's particularly relevant here because at least one proposal is particulalry bad in that regard.
[14:30] <persia> ScottK, Well, the "binary-in-multiverse" is bad in that regard too.
[14:30] <persia> The issue is more that upstreams tend to try to bundle everything, rather than working with their upstreams.
[14:30] <Koon> unfortunately in most cases it's not pure code duplication. It's duplication of code that exist in an API-incompatible version somewhere else
[14:31] <ScottK> Agreed, but I think in Multiverse there is no suggestion that things are supportable from a security perspective.
[14:31] <Koon> pure code duplicates are easy to solve with a couple symlinks and Depends: entries
[14:31] <ScottK> This is a lot like the Ruby Gems argument we had last cycle.
[14:31] <ScottK> I don't know of a good answer beyone help upstream gain some sanity.
[14:32] <persia> Well, it's also user education.  Many users don't actually care about it (cf. Jabref thread).
[14:32] <Koon> I still kinda hope we can build from source + a static API description
[14:32] <persia> They just download something from a website that works cross-platform that also works in Ubuntu.
[14:33] <Koon> because imho there is no technical reason to require the presence of the binary artifact
[14:33] <Koon> for bytecode generation
[14:33] <persia> Koon, That's an interesting idea, but I wonder why the API is being checked.
[14:33] <ScottK> I think there is some good work to be done around this.
[14:33] <Koon> maven proved that you can generate bytecode with one version and use another one at runtime
[14:33] <persia> Also, how do we confirm that the checked API matches that of our packaged library?
[14:34] <ScottK> Until we have a good way to support this, there's really not much reason to put it in the archive, IMO.
[14:34] <persia> ScottK, Well, I'd argue that anything with sufficient user demand would benefit from mirroring support, etc. (even in multiverse).
[14:35] <persia> Lets us do things like track a version that was tested, and worked at release time.
[14:35] <Koon> yes, it all depends how bad the software is wanted
[14:35] <Koon> it's just not something we would recommend as a general way of doing things
[14:35] <ScottK> Except if it's GPL, I don't think we can just toss a binary blob over the fence and declare victory.
[14:36] <persia> Oh, certainly.  Copyleft licenses are special that way.
[14:36] <persia> BSD/X/ISC/CDDL are a little more forgiving.
[14:36]  * slytherin has to be away for some work. will be in 15-20 minutes
[14:37] <ScottK> If users can download it from a web site and have it work, until it's actually maintainable, I'd suggest let them do that, but that's just me.
[14:37] <persia> Err, except CDDL is copyleft, so scratch that one.
[14:37] <Koon> There is no Java compilation option allowing to ignore method checking... but maybe we could talk with Sun about this. That would /so/help
[14:38] <persia> They tend to have presence at UDS: let's make sure it's one of the items for discussion in May.
[14:38] <Koon> i'm pretty sure it would generate the very same binaries
[14:38] <ScottK> I think that's the kind of thinking we need now...  What are the tools we need to make these Java amalgamations distro friendly.
[14:38] <persia> There's usually only one Java session, about the JDK/JRE, but having a couple might let us explore more topics (if there is room).
[14:38] <ScottK> I think figure policy and tools for the long run and then figure out how to get there.
[14:39] <Koon> sidenote: robilad discussed API tracking tools that Sun wants to more closely integrate in future Java
[14:40] <Koon> So there is definitely room for improvement
[14:40] <persia> Yeah.  There's a lot of thought about hjaving Java7 be sensibly modular, and encouraging use of common libraries.
[14:40] <persia> It's just that Java7 is always rather future.
[14:40] <Koon> So I'd use temporary workarounds rather than policy transhing
[14:40] <Koon> trashing
[14:40] <Koon> to get the Java software we may require in today
[14:41] <ScottK> I'd encourage you to make very sure you have a broad consensus on how you decide to approach that.
[14:41] <persia> Well, most of the workarounds end up pushing to multiverse, where there's much less worry.
[14:41] <persia> How much consensus is required?
[14:41] <Koon> persia: or restricted ?
[14:42] <ScottK> Restricted is for drivers.
[14:42] <persia> Koon, No, not restricted.
[14:42] <Koon> ok
[14:42] <persia> Koon, The incentive to have things in restricted ought be going away before any of these stacks are in shape to be considered.
[14:42] <ScottK> Koon: I think if it stays in multiverse and is legal (no GPL/CDDL blobs), then not a lot.
[14:43] <ScottK> But whatever approach is taken, it needs to be documented and get some community review.
[14:47] <persia> So, anything else about this packaging thread, or are we done?
[14:48] <Koon> nothing from my side
[14:48] <persia> OK.  Anyone else have anything to raise?
[14:49] <persia> In that case, meeting adjourned.
[14:49] <persia> Thank you all for coming, and we'll do it again next week.