ryanakcaapachelogger: ping, following up on the marketing idea we had ages ago, what would you say if we started a KDE4 program of the day (well, start with week and then increase the frequency)?00:18
Hobbseeryanakca: or feature of the day.  it seems that kde.org covers the programs basics pretty well.00:19
ryanakcaapachelogger: Not that many end users read the planet (or so I'm told), but it would surely help increase awareness of what we have to offer00:19
ryanakcaHobbsee: *nod*. Along the lines of tip of the day as seen when an app is first run, or something else?00:20
Hobbseeryanakca: hrm.  not sure.00:21
* Hobbsee hasn't read the tips of the day in ages.00:21
* Hobbsee has a kubuntu iso burnt now, though :)00:21
ryanakcaGood good, comming back to the light side? :)00:21
Hobbseewe'll see00:21
jjessedon't... run from the dark side00:26
Hobbsee4.2 looks a lot nicer.00:28
Hobbseealthough using compiz with it sounds like a good idea.00:29
DaSkreechWhat does compiz have that you need?00:30
Hobbseenegate, for one00:30
Hobbseedoes kde support dragging and dropping of windows on the taskbar to reorder them yet?00:31
DaSkreechThats flipping the colours to negatizes I'm pretty sure kwin has that00:31
Hobbseeeverything else is replicated, i think00:31
Hobbseeoh, good00:31
DexterFcanonical seriously needs to do something about the i18n00:31
Hobbsee(both per-window negation and full negation00:31
DaSkreechI don't know I've never used it but I recall a video with it00:32
* Hobbsee --> out00:32
DexterFDaSkreech: need to run. thanks for the help.00:39
DaSkreechDexterF: Works reasonably now?00:39
DexterFwell, yes, kde itself works, got some issues that arose from transition, like: what on eart happened to xorg.conf00:39
DexterFback in 1999 I pretty much wrote it manually now there's not even a thing I can do and the vm keeps starting in the wrong res00:40
astrommeHobbsee: It's "Invert" in kwin config. First option under all effects. You can do per window and full desktop.00:40
DexterFtho I gues that's rather an X thing. what is a kubuntu thing perhaps is that when I logout from KDE I get a black screen, kdm won't come back00:41
DexterFand I can't find where to turn of system sounds and new themes aren't immediately applied. not at all to be precise. but I'll look into that tomorrow rather.00:43
jjesse-dell9grumble computer isnt responding correctly03:50
jjesse-dell9this sucks03:50
jjesse-dell9main laptop for work and once again i am away from home with disks03:53
jjesse-dell9stupid dell03:56
jjesse-dell9if i boot a live ubuntu cd can i run an fsck/repair of an ntfs partition?03:58
DaSkreechWith limited results03:59
DaSkreech3/4 of the time it will mark a bunch of stuff as dirty and then get Windows to fix it on next boot03:59
jjesse-dell9well thats better then whats happening now04:00
jjesse-dell9hrmm gettting abn error that fsck.ntfs cannot be found04:10
jjesse-dell9wow this tottally sucks04:26
jjessewow application that should launch at startup just opened up, 15 minutes after boot on my main laptop, still won't reboot all the way05:13
jjessegoing to have to speend the ewwekend rebuilding :(05:13
DaSkreechOh wow that sucks05:15
jjesseits the 2nd time in under two months, wonder if i can blame dell somehow for a replacement?05:15
ScottKOK, so the xorg hack blog post didn't draw a lot of comments.05:30
ScottKI guess I'm not being controversial enough.05:30
jjessebecause they didn't understand it?05:30
DaSkreechYou want vitrol ?05:36
ScottKMaybe it's the whole CoC thing.  People are just sooooo nice around here.05:47
ScottKI wanted more than two comments.05:47
ScottKI heated discussion like I had with the Compiz upstream on IRC yesterday would have been nice.05:47
DaSkreechWell also I think that people read packaging was uploaded by and gloss over in favour for new episodes of Lost pretty much instantly05:49
DaSkreechThey have never packaged something they know nobody who has packaged something and they never intend to befriend a packager05:50
DaSkreechIt's just not going to strike them much less mean enough to them to make any comments05:50
* a|wen wonders what the subject are?05:51
DaSkreechOne was X not having alt+ctrl+backspace05:56
DaSkreechThe other was Compiz hacks causing video garbage05:56
a|wendo we know what we do in kubuntu about ctrl+alt+backspace ? ... i know we will have an option for it, but what about defaults?05:59
ScottKDefault is off.  We have a gui to turn it back on.06:08
jjesse-dell9where is the ppa for quassel?06:08
ScottKLooks like Gnome will not have a GUI.06:08
ScottKjjesse-dell9: Intrepid?06:08
jjesse-dell9yes sir06:08
ScottKjjesse-dell9: It's in mine, ~kitterman06:09
jjesse-dell9is it ~scottk in lp06:09
ScottKNo.  That's someone entirely different.06:09
jjesse-dell9entirerly different06:09
a|wenyeah, the gnome gui is sone, but will probably not be accepted06:09
jjesse-dell9with the update in in the ppa for kde 4.2 kontact no longer crashes on my inbox06:10
ScottKYeah.  My next attempt at controversy will be to poke fun at this.06:10
DaSkreechPeople are arguing that it's bad to have alt+ctrl+backspace and it's bad to have a GUI to turn it on06:10
a|wenjjesse-dell9: they finally got around to fix that bug (i was hit too)06:12
a|wenbut there does seem to be a point in alt+sysrq+k to be better ... we just need people to be used to that instead06:14
* a|wen has never hit ctrl+alt+backspace by accident, and i'm almost always on a laptop06:18
jjesse-dell9ScottK: when i try to run quassel after installing from the launcher i get notified that "service '/usr/share/applications/quasse.desktop' is malfformatted06:18
ScottKNote that lack of an L there.06:19
ScottKI assume you copied and pasted?06:19
ScottKjjesse-dell9: ^^06:19
jjesse-dell9hold on did i type it right06:19
jjesse-dell9no i didnt type that right06:20
ScottKOK.  KDE 4.1 or 4.2?06:20
jjesse-dell9it is service /usr/share/applications/quassel.desktop is malformatted06:20
jjesse-dell94.2 (thats what in the ppa correct?)06:20
jjesse-dell9runs fine otherwise06:21
ScottKWeird.  I don't even have the file.06:22
* ScottK looks at the package06:23
ScottKLost him ...06:24
ScottKjjesse-dell9: It should be in /usr/share/applications/kde4/06:28
jjesse-dell9ScottK: there is a file there06:29
ScottKDunno why you have the on in /usr/share/applications06:30
ScottKNot sure how I just departed the channel either.06:30
jjesse-dell9hrmm i dont have one there trying to figure it out06:31
jjesse-dell9i'll look in the morning as it is bedtime06:31
ScottKdesktop-file-validate says it's fine.06:32
* ScottK doesn't know what to say.06:33
jjesse-dell9hrm now it works fine06:34
* jjesse-dell9 beds06:34
ScottKGood night.06:35
a|wenit is definately a long discussion on that vcs-import about dontzap07:41
=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
stdinooh, qt 4.5 snapshot built in 1h 30min, debug build with demos + examples. icecc is my new bestest friend08:18
a|wenthat's good speed08:19
stdinmuch better than I expected08:20
* a|wen had building take forever08:21
stdinit was only with 2 noes too, this laptop and a 5year old desktop :)08:22
stdin(both single-core) with make -j508:22
a|wenuhh, not bad then08:22
* a|wen misses his dual-core laptop08:23
markeyhey guys, I need some advice on MP3 patenting with Kubuntu08:53
markeyif a commercial company were to use Kubuntu on their hardware08:53
markeyand they need MP3 support08:53
markeypreferrably with xinelib08:53
markeywhat would they need to do to make it legal?08:53
stdinmarkey: I guess purchase a license for the codec09:17
stdinI think a company needs a license for it anyway, since they are selling it09:18
markeyok I assumed so09:18
markeybut I would ne precise information09:18
markeywho should I contact?09:19
markeyI need the exact pricing, etc09:19
markeydo I have to talk to canonical, or to thompson, or who? :)09:20
stdincanonical don't license it09:20
markeyso you're saying that this issue is between this company I represent and the MP3 patent holder?09:21
markeycanonical is involved in no way?09:21
markeyI thought they might be able to offer something09:21
markeylike SUSE does, iirc09:21
stdinwell, there are probably vendors that can sell licenses. rather than the patent holder09:21
markeyI see09:21
stdinyou can buy the Fluendo code pack from canonical's shop, but I don't see anything for commercial licenses09:22
markeyfluendo means gstreamer, which currently means crappy phonon backend09:23
markeythat's one problem09:23
markeyis why I prefer xinelib currently09:23
markeyuntil the gstreamer backend issues are solved09:23
markeywhich may or may not be the case with KDE 4.209:23
markeyI need 100% reliability09:24
markeycrappiness is not an option ;)09:24
stdinwe offer libxine1-ffmpeg, but we don't ship it by default. we get the application that wants to play the mp3 to ask the user if they want to install the codec (explaining the reasons we don't ship it by default) and then install it for them09:25
markeyyes, I know that09:25
stdinso we don't do anything special with mp3 support, other than offer a semi-automatic way to get it09:25
stdin(which is currently not working in kubuntu ;)09:26
markeythe company I represent would need to _ship_ a working MP3 solution on their hardware09:26
markeywith kubuntu09:26
markeyand Phonon09:26
markey(all KDE based)09:26
serzholinoHi! Can someone confirm https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179947 ?09:27
ubottuKDE bug 179947 in http "kio_http always pops up proxy auth dialog" [Normal,Unconfirmed]09:27
stdinthen it'd be between the company and a vendor (ianal)09:28
markeysame here: inanal ;)09:28
markeyso I need an expert to talk to09:28
Tm_Thi markey09:43
jon_Hi there. I'm having a problem that it seems others have. When I minimize windows after some use, they look somewhat "scrambed". A redraw problem of some kind. Is it specific to Intel or a more widespread problem?10:09
jon_"scrambled" would make more sense I imagine.10:10
Hobbseeastromme: sweet, thanks!10:43
mrvanesDoes anybody know why kde-pim packages still aren't up to 4.2.0 release in amd64?11:02
mrvanesboth crested and yellow are idle, and have no jobs in queue?11:03
Hobbseemarkey: I believe you're looking for http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=19&osCsid=afcd1ed3b1b70182b850e5767b36698111:04
Hobbseemrvanes: kdepimlibs?11:06
Hobbseemrvanes: and in which release?11:06
markeyHobbsee: thanks, but as I explained above, Fluendo isn't currently an option for me11:07
markeyit might be, if Phonon-GStreamer is fixed11:08
markeywhich has yet to be seen11:08
markeythe reports we get are horrible11:08
Hobbseemarkey: oh, that's a nuisance.  You could try contacting them, asking if they could provide other bits, too.11:09
markeyand I'm personally not a big fan of gstreamer, for one reason or another11:09
markeybut meh, if it works..11:09
markeywell if ;)11:09
Hobbseebah.  stdin mentioned what I said anyway.  I missed that, while reading11:09
Nightrosemarkey: talk to jcastro - he will be able to send you to the right person11:10
markeyah ok, thanks :)11:10
mrvanesHobbsee: the complete kdepim suite is still at 4.1.96, except kdepim meta package11:10
mrvanesJaunty btw11:11
Hobbseeoh, there we go.11:11
* Hobbsee has a look, now that enough info has been provided to start looking11:11
markey"Jorge Fernando "Locomotora" Castro (Spanish: locomotive), (born August 18, 1967 in Caleta Olivia, Santa Cruz province) is an Argentine boxer and former Middleweight champion of the world, who is best known for his second defense of the title against John David Jackson in 1994."11:12
markeyok, I guess that's another jorge ;)11:12
markeyfound the right one11:13
Hobbseemrvanes: which mirror are you using?11:15
Hobbseeit's probably not resynced yet.11:15
Hobbseeit'll come through, it's on the main archive now.11:16
mrvanesWow... but it's been a couple of _days_11:16
mrvanesok, thx for looking!11:16
Hobbseeit was queued a couple of days ago11:16
Hobbseelooks like amd64 had a massive backlog11:16
Hobbseeit only finished building 2 hours ago11:16
mrvanesheard THAT before on this channel ;)11:16
mrvanesOk... clear11:16
mrvanesanyone using quassel?11:17
mrvanesNever mind... found it...11:18
ScottKIf jon_ from about an hour and a half ago comes back and asks about the garbage on the screen, please point him at http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/01/bug_254468_momentary_video_gar.html11:42
* ScottK goes back to bed ...11:42
a|wenuh, konqueror in kde4.2 actually beats firefox 3.0.5 in the acid3 test11:50
knusperfroschScottK: is that why my background(=desktop+plasmoids on it)  won't get painted again unless i click on it? (happens for windows sometimes too, buttons get painted again as i focus them). or is this why icons in systray look like noise on the screen and are replaces with the real icon after a while?12:44
=== rdieter_away is now known as rdieter
RiddellArby: ooh, look what I got working! http://www.kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/s-c-p-k2.png12:56
ArbyRiddell: woohoo :)13:05
ArbyI could never figure out how the gnoem version worked for that part13:05
knusperfroschbtw: how can i make the print dialog remember the last settings?13:05
RiddellArby: well it does fancy things to create the GUI on the fly13:05
Arbyyeah, black magic :)13:05
RiddellArby: the Profiles page doesn't seem to exist in the Gnome version now, I guess I can just delete that tab13:06
Arbyfair enough13:06
ArbyRiddell: did you get anywhere with the thread wierdness in kcm?13:06
Arbylast I saw Sime suggested switching to processes rather than threads13:07
RiddellArby: indeed, I guess we'd need to get rid of the threads to get it into a kcm13:07
Arby*shudder* that sounds quite hard13:08
Riddellmm, yes13:08
ArbyI might have a play this weekend if I get time13:08
Arbybut we might have to postpone that to jaunty +113:08
RiddellArby: it might turn out to be trivial for all I know, possibly it can just do whatever the thread does but we add a few QApplication.processEvents() around the place to keep the UI responsive13:09
Arbyon the plus side it's reassuring to know that it wasn't just me :)13:09
ArbyRiddell: I'll have a poke at it if you don't get there first13:10
RiddellArby: where should I put my branch?13:10
Riddellin kubuntu-members?13:10
ArbyRiddell: is that the standalone version? if yes then k-members13:10
ArbyI kept meaning to move mine and never did13:11
Arbythen at some point I guess we have to move it upstream13:11
ArbyRiddell: what's the best way to do that ^^?13:12
Arbymake small batches from bzr and commit those upstream13:12
Arbybzr diff -rX..Y blah13:12
Riddellbzr push <new location>13:13
Arbycan bzr push to svn?13:13
Arbydidn't know that13:13
Riddellnot easily, it would probably involve using bzrsvn and starting with a bzr branch from svn13:14
RiddellI'd just put it all into svn and point to the bzr branch for people who want the history13:14
apacheloggerwho wants a cookie?13:14
ArbyRiddell: fair enough13:14
Riddellapachelogger: got any ginger cookies?13:14
* a|wen waves to apachelogger13:14
apacheloggerRiddell: nope :|13:15
RiddellI can't work out how to delete a tab from a QTabWidget in qtdesigner13:15
apacheloggera|wen: marble needs a TryExec13:16
apacheloggerpatched + upstream13:16
apacheloggernow that libmarble depends on -data there is telling if the binary is really installed13:16
apacheloggera|wen: marble.desktop that is13:16
Riddelloh Arby, you need to learn to add layouts to your widgets :)13:16
apachelogger<3 layouts13:17
apacheloggerI think that is one of the first things you learn in any Qt book :P13:17
a|wenmarble looks cool :)13:17
apacheloggera|wen: not if the bin is not installed and that darn entry in my menu is suggesting it is13:17
a|wennope :P13:18
a|wenuh, mplayer ftbfs during build... not good13:18
apacheloggeruninteresting :P13:18
apacheloggera|wen: go fix marble13:18
a|wendo we have it packaged?13:19
apacheloggera|wen: kdeedu13:19
apacheloggerand fix it upstream for 4.3 and 4.2.113:20
apacheloggermuch more important actually13:20
ArbyRiddell: I know13:20
apacheloggeralso ... can someone please tell these gnome rabbits that I don't care whether their X config allows turning ctrl+alt+bkspace off and that they shall pretty please stop flooding my inbox?13:20
ArbyI can never make the layouts behave how I want13:20
* a|wen has no upstream powers ... except filing a bug ;)13:21
apacheloggera|wen: Riddell does13:21
Riddellwhat's wrong with marble?13:22
apacheloggerRiddell: libmarble needs -data, -data contains marble.desktop, marble bin is in marble, making marble.desktop useless ... so marble.desktop needs a TryExec13:22
apacheloggeror the file needs to be moved to marble package ... but from my point of view any application desktop file should have a tryexec anyway13:23
a|wenor both13:24
a|wendon't we normally ship executables + related .desktop in same package?13:24
apacheloggerthat depends on what you define as normal13:24
apacheloggera|wen: talk to debian if they want to move the desktop file13:25
apacheloggerif so, all the better, but the file needs a tryexec13:25
a|wenapachelogger: i'll look at it and commit to bzr later ... and try to talk to the debian people13:29
* a|wen goes to have dinner13:29
JontheEchidnaapachelogger: why are you getting mail?13:40
JontheEchidnaprolly a mailing list I don't subscribe to13:41
ScottKJontheEchidna: You're not core-dev.  It's a bzr branch that every core-dev is getting.13:43
ScottKJontheEchidna: My last blog post links to the discussion.  See p.u.c.13:56
ScottKp = planet13:57
JontheEchidnawell, I sorta take the same position as apachelogger, I dun care :P13:57
ScottKThe part I care about is the process issue.  We had an agreement at UDS, an approved spec, someone does the code, and then it's all overturned.13:58
rgreeningTonio_: Still no go with wep wireless here. I've tried everything to make it work. only time it works is with knetworkmanager hanging around, and thats just due to dbus info14:00
JontheEchidnaScottK: Hmm, that is a bit concerning14:06
* a|wen has got cookies :)14:15
ScottKWe got kdelibs working without arts, right?14:35
a|wenScottK: yeah14:44
ScottKThere's someone over in #debian-qt-kde trying to do that and failing so far.  Dunno if it's be worthwhile to offer help.14:45
a|wenthe only question is how much we broke ... eg. basket needs libartskde14:45
ScottKRight, well he's just on getting kdelibs to compile.14:46
a|wenScottK: you can see what apachelogger did ... it's one of the last uploads14:46
ScottKI was rather hoping someone else would.14:47
ScottKI've got a meeting here in a few minutes.14:47
a|wenit's on the debian irc, right?14:47
ScottKyeah.  OFTC14:49
a|wenokay ... i've joined now14:49
a|weni'll keep an eye out if someone actually says anything14:50
rgreeninganyone know how to use app-install-data package? I'm trying to add app only view to kpackagekit and I believe it would use app-install-data for this.14:51
JontheEchidnargreening: adept is probably a good reference14:51
rgreeningyeah, that's what I am looking at...14:52
JontheEchidnapackagedata.h and applicationswidget.h look interesting14:53
a|wenapachelogger: regarding the marble issue ... why don't marble-data depend on marble? can marble-data be used by itself in any case?14:56
ScottKRiddell: Release team meeting in 1 minute....14:59
a|wenapachelogger: and if we are going to add tryexec, we should do it for all of them ... seems pretty consistent15:01
a|wenon my system 3 out of 82 files in the folder with marble.desktop has a tryexec :/15:02
ScottKHow's your sed?15:04
rgreeningsed is teh shiz15:04
rgreeningsed -i 's/[search]/[replace]/g' [filelist15:05
seeledid i see someone passing around cookies?15:06
* seele wants an almond cookie15:06
* a|wen only got chocolate and custard cream15:07
a|wentried looking for add flavours in the shop... but there wasn't any15:07
apacheloggera|wen: there are more application desktop files in that package?15:08
a|wenapachelogger: don't know about in that particular package ...15:09
apacheloggera|wen: also: no -data package depends a binary package ... mostly because the relation all to any is invalid ;-)15:09
apacheloggeror lets say, not very wise15:09
apacheloggera|wen: so, by all of them you meant all of KDE?15:09
a|wenyeah... or what i have installed15:10
apacheloggergood fun with that :P15:10
apacheloggera|wen: that also ough to be discussed on kde-devel for starts15:10
a|wenmany of the kde packages have same structure (eg. [program] and [program]-date) ... where [program] holds binary and [program]-data holds .desktop15:10
RiddellScottK: hmm, I guess I'm ment to be giving a report15:10
ScottKI'm not sure if the 'desktop' person is mean to report Kubuntu and you're there as a release person or not.15:11
apacheloggera|wen: well, I think only debian based distros split out the data, so that is hardly a good reason to add tryexec everywhere :P15:11
apacheloggervacation! :P15:11
ScottKIn the past I've given Kubuntu reports when you weren't around.15:11
a|wenapachelogger: seems as though they are meant not to be there ... so we + debian ought to add tryexec ourselves i think15:12
PiciI know this isn't exactly directly related to this channel's topic, but perhaps one of you could prod someone to get bug 112673 fixed.  That page is in dire need of an update.15:13
ubottuLaunchpad bug 112673 in ubuntu-website "What's Ubuntu? >> Kubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/11267315:13
apacheloggera|wen: well, it does not hurt to have them there ... there is just no rationale that applies to non-debian distros or source installations, so adding it to all applications in KDE would be a rather pointless part15:13
apacheloggera|wen: which is why I would just add it to those where it is necessary for us and debian, which is right now marble15:14
a|wenapachelogger: okay ... and a few others just in kdeedu15:15
apacheloggerPici: like why does that not just forward to kubuntu.org?15:15
* apachelogger finds it inefficient to maintain 2 versions, where our team only got direct access to one anyway15:16
apacheloggera|wen: like?15:16
Piciapachelogger: That would work too15:16
apacheloggera|wen: marble is really only a problem because of libmarble15:16
apacheloggera|wen: being able to install -data packages without bins is just fine most of the time ... but if a library depends on the -data package, or if the -data package contains desktop files for more than one binary there should at least be proper tryexec in place15:17
a|wenapachelogger: ahh, i see your point15:17
* apachelogger just noticed that he didn't eat anything yet, which explains why he is cold15:18
apacheloggerPici: care to add a comment about that?15:18
Piciapachelogger: I'll type up something to that effect.15:22
rgreeningseele: I'm looking at kpackagekit right now. Do you have an idea on what you'd like to see?15:22
rgreeningseele: The left panel are module based (i.e. Software Management, Software Updates, Settings). I can probably make a new one called Add/Remove Programs... though I am unsure about this.15:23
apacheloggerPici: thx15:24
rgreeningseele: Software Management is Add/Remove .. so maybe it needs to be tweaked...15:24
seelergreening: we can figure out the label, the important part is getting a page that has a list of applications instead of packages15:26
seelergreening: then there are a few tweaks to search, but i think the list of applications should come first15:26
ScottKRiddell: What Kubuntu parts for the Dx stuff?15:26
RiddellScottK: no idea15:27
ScottKrickspencer3: I didn't speak up in the release meeting because I'm not there as a Kubuntu person, but as motu-release, but this is most unwelcome news.15:27
rgreeningseele: ok. I'll see what I can cobble together. My C++ is a bit rusty, but the kpackagekit code seems very well written.15:27
RiddellScottK: having people develop for Kubuntu should be welcome news15:28
ScottKRiddell: Having their crap notification stuff inserted in a way that totally bypasses the community is not.15:28
rgreeningseele: if you want to mock up a pic of the layout you'd like ot see, I'll make the code changes and a patch15:28
Riddellwe can hardy comment on it before we've seen it15:29
rickspencer3ScottK: it is not going to "bypass" that community15:29
ScottKrickspencer3: So far it has.15:29
seeleScottK: no code has been committed to kubuntu15:29
ScottKseele: http://paste.ubuntu.com/111734/ <-- Release team meeting.15:29
rickspencer3I have to focus on the release meeting, so let's talk later15:29
rickspencer3but seriously, no one is planning to force anyone to do anything15:29
ScottKWe can talk later.15:30
rgreeningI would think Riddell would be voice #1 for Kubuntu and would be involved with any of those discussions from the start so as to hae the community ear.15:32
a|weni would rather think that changing how notificaions work should be done upstream ...15:34
a|wenif it is to be changed15:34
ScottKa|wen: I agree.15:35
rgreeningI wonder if anyone looking at notifications is using >= KDE4.1.96.. the notifications are slick and have the unified drop box already (for ongoing things like downloads).15:37
a|wenyeah, they are definitely nice in kde 4.215:38
Riddellthe 4.2 notifications are surprisingly close to how they designed the Ubuntu Desktop stuff from an artistic view15:39
rgreeningyeah, so let's just say it works and move on :)15:40
rgreeningScottK: so the Kvirc package seems to be ok.. working icons and all now (wasn't in first one I sent).15:44
rgreeningScottK: are you able to test under Gnome (or know someone who can). to test the Gnome integration15:45
ScottKIf you want another Universe one, you might look at Krusader and see if we should update our snapshot of that.15:45
ScottKrgreening: No Gnome here.15:45
ryanakcaCould someone look at bug 312880 please? I'm not sure what project I should change it to.15:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 312880 in kubuntu-website "Problem in KDE 4.2 Beta 2 installation instructions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31288015:47
=== mbiebl_ is now known as mbiebl
a|wenapachelogger: after some grepping we need to look at adding tryexec to .desktop files marble-data and kdebase-{runtime,workspace}-data15:48
Riddellryanakca: seems invalid to me15:49
ScottKryanakca: I agree.  They've got some 3rd party stuff installed.15:50
rgreeningScottK: I'll take a stab at Krusader15:51
ScottKShould be easier than Kvirc.  It's already KDE4.15:52
rgreeninganyone got Gnome installed and can test Kvirc4.0.0 under Gnome for me?15:52
rgreeningScottK: yeah, that was a learning experience. But a good one...15:52
ScottKWhatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger ...15:53
* rgreening is preparing a new upload of Qt 4.5 snapshot (as soon as I fix the build)15:54
rgreeningkubotu help twitter15:55
kubotutwitter status [nick] => show nick's (or your) status, use 'twitter friends status [nick]' to also show the friends' timeline | twitter update [status] => updates your status on twitter | twitter identify [username] [password] => ties your nick to your twitter username and password | twitter actions [on|off] => enable/disable twitting of actions (/me does ...)15:55
rgreening~twitter actions off15:56
DaSkreechawww :-(15:56
rgreening~twitter identify rgreening15:56
kubotuincorrect usage, ask for help using 'kubotu: help twitter'15:56
rgreening~twitter actions on15:56
* rgreening is preparing a new upload of Qt 4.5 snapshot (as soon as I fix the build)15:57
apacheloggera|wen: deps go against kdebase-runtime ...workspace has as similar state ... just trust me ... we only need it for marble.desktop :P15:58
rgreeningScottK: seems a beta was released of Krusader15:59
a|wenapachelogger: okay... i'll trust you then15:59
ScottKrgreening: The last svn I uploaded was a few commits past the beta.15:59
ScottKUnless there was another one ...15:59
rgreeningAh.. ya, just reading the changelog in the deb15:59
rgreeningScottK: I'll check the commit16:00
rgreeningScottK: newest is 8hrs old and at 6194 (18 commits)16:01
rgreeninglots of fixes in those commits.16:02
* rgreening goes off to update krusader package to latest SVN commit 619416:03
ryanakcaRiddell, ScottK: thanks16:16
ScottKNo problem.  Thanks for pointing it out.16:16
ScottKrickspencer3: Is now a good time to chat then?16:21
rickspencer3ScottK: yeah sure16:22
ScottKrickspencer3: From my perspective as  community Kubuntu developer, I stil have zero idea of what Dx is considering.16:23
ScottKThere are no public specs written and we are less than 3 weeks from feature freeze.16:23
rickspencer3ScottK: understood16:23
rickspencer3however ...16:24
rgreeningShouldn't the Kubuntu team be involved from the start?16:24
* ScottK would think.16:24
* ScottK is going to listen to the however though.16:24
rickspencer3they discussed this with everyone at UDS16:24
rgreeningwe do the heavy lifting and answer to the user base16:24
rickspencer3and they published the design specs such that they had, in the form of movies16:25
rgreeningrickspencer3: I agree there was a discussion but not necessarily buyin nor any followup since16:25
rgreeningwith us here16:25
rickspencer3so first, I would ask that you default to an assumption of good intentions on everyone's part16:25
rgreeningI'll conceed that... but... we need a discussion (I would think) and soon.16:26
ScottKrickspencer3: It's been almost two months since UDS with zero followup.16:26
* astromme is thrilled to have his KMail back in jaunty. No crashes!16:26
rickspencer3There hasn't been *zero* follow up16:26
davidbarthhey ScottK, we're not perfect, but we're trying hard to have something for kubuntu16:26
ScottKrickspencer3: Aslo, as you saw in the last Kubuntu meeting, in Kubuntu specs are approved by the Kubuntu Council and so Canonical deciding to land something unilaterally is decidely out of process.16:26
ScottKdavidbarth: Do you know if you have anything Kubuntu wants?16:27
rickspencer3hi davidbarth16:27
rgreeningo/ davidbarth16:27
rickspencer3ScottK: I can assure you that no one thinks they can simply "land" something in Kubuntu16:27
davidbarthScottK: i'm not sure this is the right question to ask16:27
rgreeningTonio_: knm still no luck with wep16:27
ScottKdavidbarth: Others may have a different view, but I'm pretty sure it is.16:28
davidbarthScottK: we have proposed a few new elements, and we're trying to see how that can work in kubuntu16:28
DaSkreechIf I install digikam it removes plasmoids and gwenview16:28
davidbarthdavidbarth: i listen to the feedback on the notifications16:29
ScottKDaSkreech: Try digikam-kde4 if we have one?16:29
davidbarthdavidbarth: however, i'm a man of code, i shut up when i don't have some to show16:29
ScottKI don't recall where we are on that.16:29
davidbarthdavidbarth: atm i don't have anything worth a build, so this is why you don't hear much about us16:30
ScottKdavidbarth: I'm a system engineer by trade, so I generally see design followed by implementation.16:30
davidbarthdavidbarth: at uds we discussed two things mainly16:30
davidbarththe notifications16:30
davidbarthand the message indicator16:30
rgreeningdavidbarth: KDE 4.2 has both of these working in good order for Jaunty/Intrepid16:30
davidbarththe message indicator is currently implemented as a g_object library with a D-Bus binding16:31
Riddellrgreening: it really doesn't16:31
DaSkreechDoesn't exist digikam is digikam now it seems16:31
davidbarthScottK: you can find good counter-argument, that's quite an easy rhetoric, i'm just telling you what i know16:31
ScottKDaSkreech: It's still the KDE3 one then.16:31
rgreeningRiddell: hmm... not sure what you mean there.16:31
davidbarthdavidbarth: and what i'm on is to make the d-bus calls to talk with this part16:32
ScottKdavidbarth: First, welcome.  I think we should have had this talk weeks ago.16:32
rgreeningworking does not mean looks like the Gnome implementation16:32
Riddellrgreening: there's no message indicator, several apps don't use the notifications and there's no common standard between gnome and kde16:32
davidbarthScottK: ;)16:32
rgreeningRiddell: I'll conceed that16:32
ScottKRiddell: But K(U)buntu going off on a tangent that's unacceptable upstream doesn't help that.16:32
rickspencer3ScottK: Do you feel that davidbarth's team is not entitled to experiment with new ways of doing things?16:33
DaSkreechRiddell: technically there is a common standard but no one uses it since it's pretty rubbish16:33
ScottKrickspencer3: Not in a release, no.16:33
ScottKdavidbarth: For Notifications, what is it that you would want different from what Knotify does in 4.2?16:34
rgreeningexperimentation is great , but needs to be presented16:34
rickspencer3It seems that many projects that are notifications related have been started recently, and aren't upstream16:34
rgreeningas an option16:34
RiddellScottK: the things I listed all seem like they should be acceptable to upstream16:35
rgreeningI think there are two issues: 1) make Gnome KDE Knotify aware and 2) make KDE, Gnome notify aware. Anything beyond that is a fundamental shift to the Idelas of KDE/Kubuntu16:35
seelergreening: there is nothing wrong with the proposed message indicator, there is currently a plasmoid which attempts to do something similar16:35
seelei think if the DX team wants to develop a plasmoid for Kubuntu to do what their indicator does for Ubuntu, that would be great16:36
ScottKRiddell: I think that the idea that clicking on a notification doing something useful is bad and must be stopped is not.16:36
davidbarthScottK: so far I don't think we'll have enough consensus AND code for knotify for this release16:36
seeleand it's still configurable so if users dont like it they can remove teh plasmoid like anything else16:36
Riddellrgreening: there's really no reason why everything woulkd be a fundamental shift16:36
rgreeningseele: I agree, as this is an option a user can have or not.16:36
ScottKI think what seele is suggesting has merit.16:36
ScottKIf this is something optional that users can add if they choose to opt-in to the experiment.16:37
RiddellScottK: that's one aspect, you seem to be assuming from that one aspect that the whole project is a fail16:37
ScottKRiddell: I think that aspect is very problematic.16:37
davidbarththis is why i'm focusing on the message indicator16:38
rgreeningRiddell: I guess I was thinking about the idea that Gnome wants ot oversimplify the notifications and make them entirely transient16:38
ScottKThere is currently a bug in our Quassel package that keeps that from working and I'd hate to get stuck with it as a feature.16:38
ScottKI do think the pushback has been about notifications.16:38
Riddellrgreening: as I say, that's only one aspect16:39
rgreeningAt any rate, this is something we should probably cooperate more openly on (i.e. have a discussion on the spec, what can be implemented and what should or should not be), etc).16:39
davidbarthScottK: bug #?16:39
ScottKdavidbarth: I guess I'm not sure I understand well enough what distinguished MI?16:39
DaSkreechScottK: That's why it's an experiment. It was stated up front this might now work If it's opt in for the users how bad can it be?16:39
ScottKdavidbarth: I didn't file a bug on it, I've been discussing it with upstream.16:39
ScottKWith KDE integration off, their QT4 build the notification feeback works.16:40
davidbarthScottK: the MI is made to quickly switch back to messaging applications for which notifications have recently been shown16:40
ScottKOK.  I understand that then.16:40
davidbarthScottK: as part of the discussions we had at UDS, it was clear that this use case was really important for users who are used to clicking on notifications16:41
rickspencer3I think it will work very well for users16:41
ScottKI think if there were a plasmoid that provided that feature that users would install it would be uncontroversial.16:41
rgreeningI don't think there's a fundamental disagreement on implementing this, only in the details and the communication and whether it's optional or not.16:41
ScottKdavidbarth: It's still, i think, a totally bad design to flash a notification at someone and then expect them not to click on it, but something else if the notificaiton is still present.16:41
rgreeningScottK: agreed. It's about choice here16:42
davidbarthScottK: this is a complex topic, i think seele's documents that quite well16:43
ScottKrickspencer3: I think the MI in addition to feedback via clicking on a notification is fine.  It's the instead of that I find flat out bizarre.16:43
rickspencer3I think one important thing to keep in mind is that the notifications system must have the MI indicator ready at the same time, or the lack of actions will be bad16:43
rickspencer3ScottK: I think it works well.16:44
DaSkreechMI ?16:44
rickspencer3The notion is that you never have to think about whether to click on a notification16:44
davidbarthhowever, I have not read the latest messages, but i think there are different kind of notifications, and we propose a solution that is good for the ones that should not interrupt the user16:44
rickspencer3either you can't, or you can go to the MI when you are ready to16:44
davidbarthfor notifications that are *meant*  to interrupt the user, i think the MI is a good solution16:44
rickspencer3I think it is a strong and very user-centered design16:44
DaSkreechMI ?16:45
rickspencer3davidbarth: good point16:45
rickspencer3MI = Messaging Indicator16:45
ScottKrickspencer3: Right, but I usually decide immediately if I'm going to deal with it.  If the notification is still there, I'm going to click on it.16:45
ScottKrickspencer3: I still have to decide the same if it's in a notificaiton or in MI.16:45
rickspencer3But in this way, users don't have to decide. A burden has been lifted16:45
davidbarthbut for the other cases, there are different (controversial, anyway, to-be-discussed) solutions that can improve the situation16:45
ScottKNot at all.16:45
rgreeningburden? heh16:46
ScottKThe decision is still required.  You just move it.16:46
ScottKrgreening: Gnome thinking IMO.16:46
davidbarthas a normal user, i feel interrupted by the current notifications, but most of the time i don't like the interface that notification windows are offering me16:47
rgreeningdelaying a decision makes it easier to not make one which can have negative results on performance16:47
ScottKdavidbarth: You've used KDE 4.2?16:47
davidbarththat's personal taste, but i wouldn't try to work on that if i didn't feel it does solve a problem (not all, but still ;)16:47
davidbarthScottK: not regularly, why?16:48
ScottKdavidbarth: Then you're not liking a design you've never tried.16:48
* astromme likes the notifications in 4.2. All plasmaified goodness that's subtle and hideable16:49
ScottKNotifications in 4.2 are radically different and improved from 4.1.16:49
rgreeningI think one needs ot work in the environment before deciding what needs to change in the environment. How can one suggest improvements without being intimately familiar in it.16:49
rickspencer3I think there is value in offering their great work to KDE16:49
ScottKIf you're basing your opinion of notifications in KDE based on 4.1, I would encourage you to step back from your conclusions.16:49
rickspencer3I would expect that we would all consider the work with open mind, based on it's merits16:50
rickspencer3I think davidbarth was referring to notification system in general, and not necessarily based on a specific experience16:50
ScottKrickspencer3: This is very difficult when work is done out of process away from the community.16:50
rickspencer3ScottK: I think we need to get past that. That point has been made, and now we're discussing next steps.16:51
davidbarthScottK: i don't know, which notifications in particular would you like me to see? the ones used by the update-manager?16:51
rickspencer3if we assume that everyone has good intentions and is working on behalf of the users we will be able to make a lot of progress in this discussion16:52
ScottKrickspencer3: I agree, I just think we have some very fundamental differences about what is good for the users.16:52
rickspencer3ScottK: right, and that is a very healthy discussion to have16:53
rickspencer3One of the strengths of Linux, I think ...16:53
ScottKI think KDE and Gnome have very different perspectives about usability and it shows here.16:53
rickspencer3is that the code can decide a lot of those issues, as users adopt or reject options16:53
davidbarthbtw, i don't feel we're really that away from the community, we're too few to work on KDE yet and really busy coding16:53
astrommedavidbarth: Try Kopete notifications, solid (i.e. powermanager) notifications, file transfers, network connectivity.16:54
ScottKdavidbarth: IIRC this is the first time I've seen you here.16:54
rickspencer3ScottK: Keep in mind this is a *Canonical* contribution to the Desktop ecosystem16:54
ScottKrickspencer3: Certainly.16:54
rickspencer3I think the work is very very strong and will end up more or less a standard16:55
rickspencer3however, time will tell ... I'm keeping an open mind16:55
davidbarthScottK: yes, almost, sorry for that16:55
rickspencer3but it's not a GNOME thing, or a KDE thing16:55
rgreeningdavidbarth: If you have some time, I can walk you through some screenies of notifications in 4.2. However, I think you need to have a system to develop on using 4.2 to get a real feel for it. I am sure there can be improvements and the KDE upstream would be willing to accept sensible patches if it aligns with their goeas and help make things better for th euser.16:55
rickspencer3davidbarth: didn't you guys just hire a quite talented KDE developer?16:56
ScottKI think it is.  I think they each attract users that interact with their systems in a certain way?16:56
davidbarthwell, just to summarize (because i happen to have code drop to prepare for next week at the Berlin sprint... ;):16:56
davidbarthrickspencer3: yes, but we have to wait for his notice period :-(16:56
rgreeninghaving a KDE guy on the team should help a lot.16:57
rickspencer3still good news for Kubuntu (to have a guy on the inside ;) )16:57
davidbarthi'm trying to hook the message indicator and remove the g* dependencies16:57
ScottKrickspencer3: To the extent the work integrates well with the KDE way of doing things I agree.16:58
DaSkreech\o/ Linux strengths16:58
rgreeningdavidbarth: \o/ no g deps :)16:58
davidbarthand then will move on with some kde patches if the first element is stable for the release16:58
ScottKDaSkreech: Agreed.16:58
ScottKdavidbarth: The step in the middle is to get Kubuntu to agree to accept them.16:59
* apachelogger is wondering why libgst-ruby depends on gtk16:59
rgreeningdavidbarth: I'd be willing to help test here. I am running Jaunty w/ kde4.2 and can test build any patches for you.16:59
rickspencer3ScottK: I think by "release" he means in a PPA or such17:00
rgreeningin the interest of cooperation17:00
* apachelogger is also wondering why webkam 0.3 uses rubyqt and rubygst but not phonon17:00
DaSkreech!info webkam17:00
ubottuPackage webkam does not exist in intrepid17:00
davidbarthbut i won't try to spoil the release with something bad or that is half way there17:00
a|wendo we have a link to the notification spec somewhere?17:01
rgreeningo/ a|wen17:01
ScottKa|wen: There is no spec.  Look at Mark Shuttleworth's blog.17:01
ScottKThat's all there is.17:01
davidbarthi really want to have something to bring to the kubuntu release, and avoid having just a gnome only contribution17:01
* a|wen looks17:01
davidbarthjust wish me good luck, because there isn't much time left ;)17:02
rickspencer3davidbarth: I think ScottK's point is that you may offer the code, but the Kubuntu community won't integrate it by default if they believe it is bad for their users17:02
rickspencer3(at least that is my read)17:02
apacheloggerDaSkreech: kde-apps ... I don't feel like packaging it with gst though ... it is like stupid17:02
ScottKThat doesn't mean we won't have an open mind about it, but don't take that aspect as a given.17:03
apacheloggerDaSkreech: + I think if I touch gnome-ruby I will get even more launchpad spam mails about gnome branches I don't care a bit about :P17:03
ScottKIf whatever it is isn't acceptable to upstream KDE, then we will get stuck maintaining it (in addition to it being suitable for our users).17:03
DaSkreechseele: Just occured to me can you make a plasmoid just for notifications?17:03
davidbarthrickspencer3: yeah, i'd still like to have some significant kde contribution, even if it is not enabled by default17:03
rickspencer3don't you carry other delta's between upstream and Kubuntu already?17:04
DaSkreech\o/ collaboration17:04
ScottKdavidbarth: I'd also like to see a commitment from Dx to either maintain the changes or get them upstream.17:04
rickspencer3davidbarth: agreed17:04
davidbarthScottK: i was in touch with aseigo at UDS, but i won't get back to him before i have some code that runs17:04
seeleDaSkreech: you can make a plasmoid for anything17:04
ScottKrickspencer3: Certainly, but we try to minimize them.17:04
ScottKdavidbarth: I assume you saw the blog post he did about it?17:05
seelerickspencer3: those delta's are probably because of me.  notably kickoff17:05
rickspencer3I propose that we let David see if he can get anything ready to even try, and then reconvene the discussion when he has some code17:05
davidbarthScottK: what was discussed is to see that on the FD.o list with the galago developer, but then the MI thing has been swapped as the 1st priority (for good reasons)17:05
davidbarthScottK: sure i did17:05
ScottKrickspencer3: That's fine.  I'm glad we are finally at least communicating.17:06
davidbarthrickspencer3: ;) code, that's the keyword!17:06
ScottKdavidbarth: Then you know why I'm not particularly hopeful about this going upstream.17:06
DaSkreechHmm I wonder what happens if you have three plasmoids for notifications17:06
rickspencer3perhaps we should let davidbarth have some time with his family now, as he will be traveling for the next two weeks :)17:06
apacheloggerScottK: kde is about the settings and the spec should support multiple frontend scenarios anyway17:07
seeledavidbarth: how do you plan on implementing the MI in KDE? the UI should *really* be a plasmoid, and it would be a great contribution to upstream if you wrote a plasma service to go with it instead of extra out-of-libs code17:07
ScottK+1 to seele.17:07
apacheloggerScottK: like having some things clickable is purely frontend stuff ... the spec should IMHO support it, but if the frontend respects that is either up to the code or a setting17:07
seeledavidbarth: also the service might already exist and you only need to do the UI17:07
ScottKapachelogger: That sounds reasonable.  As long as we are giving choice and not taking it away.17:08
davidbarthseele: i'm not that far unfortunately, i'm first trying to make KDE apps talk to the gnome indicator17:08
ScottKAlso if we diverge from standard KDE behavior, I think it needs to be very well justified.17:08
apacheloggerand maintained :P17:09
* apachelogger always has a thinger on the r and m when he comes across a patch that doesn't apply :P17:09
apacheloggerfinger even17:09
seeledavidbarth: via dbus i hope? knotify is a bit smarter than gnome messages, you should get the event and data17:09
* ScottK didn't want to know what apachelogger's thinger was about.17:09
davidbarthseele: for the KDE indicator, yes, jonathan told me to go this way17:09
apacheloggerScottK: :P17:10
seeledavidbarth: ok good :)17:10
=== DaSkreech is now known as DaSkreech-pingme
rgreening+1 seele. all great ideas to consider :)17:11
* apachelogger is not sure knotify uses dbus though :P17:11
davidbarthseele: yes, everything is on the bus (MI and NS)17:11
seeleapachelogger: it was, does it not anymore?17:11
seeleapachelogger: is it a plasma service now?17:12
apacheloggerseele: well, not as primary access node17:12
apacheloggerthat kind of stuff goes all through the appropriate libs AFAIK17:12
apacheloggerusing dbus is the hackish approach I think17:12
apacheloggercertainly works though17:12
davidbarthapachelogger: the great thing is that it goes through a known library, but i'm not sure how old KDE apps are supported? those using the X atoms implementation or something?17:13
davidbarthapachelogger: can I email you with some questions about that later?17:14
Riddellapachelogger: qdbus org.kde.knotify /Notify17:15
apacheloggerRiddell: would that be the common approach?17:15
apacheloggerdavidbarth: I am not very keen on knotify stuff ;-)17:15
Riddellapachelogger: dbus is how we do inter-process communication17:15
apacheloggerRiddell: what if knotify is not registered?17:16
Riddellapachelogger: then it goes nowhere17:17
Riddellapachelogger: although I think it'll get started magically by dbus if it's installed17:17
apacheloggerwell, I am more thinking if it dies or the user deactivates it17:18
ScottKIf the user deactivates it, that's on the user in any case.17:19
apacheloggernah, I was just wondering if dbus wouldn't be like erroring back at $callingapplication17:19
seelekwwii: yo17:20
seelenow the entire party is here17:20
* davidbarth has to switch to another call17:21
* ScottK sees http://rbitanga.blogspot.com/2009/01/multiple-actions-for-krunner-in-kde-42.html and wonders if we want some of that.17:22
DaSkreech-pingmeI thought that Quicksand was the multiple actions thing17:24
Riddelljpds: are you trustworthy, caring and discreet?17:25
apacheloggerRiddell: http://api.kde.org/4.1-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kdeui/html/classKNotification.html17:25
apacheloggerScottK: can you sum that up in one sentence?17:28
* apachelogger is wondering why don't build ruby's phonon bindings17:28
ScottKapachelogger: Perfect.  I was looking for that exact page the other day.17:29
ScottKOf course it was the day that api.kde.org was down ....17:29
apacheloggergoogle to the rescue17:29
apacheloggerapi's search appears to be broken17:29
ScottKTried that.  Failed.17:29
ScottKI guess your Googlefu exceeds mine.17:30
apacheloggergoogle like owns me17:30
apacheloggerSput: did I already tell you that a) that dropping out of channels on reconnect is annoying b) that it is even more annoying that quassel doesn't properly indicate this if there was foo going on before $reconnect?17:31
jpdsRiddell: I suppose so...17:36
seelewhat a strange question out of context17:39
* DaSkreech-pingme likes the caring part17:39
DaSkreech-pingmeScottK: Do you know Ryan's irc nick ?17:39
ScottKapachelogger: Speaking of quassel - I see it now knows about CA certs and can be told to recognize particular certs.  We ought not be arbitrarily over-writing certs anymore.17:39
ScottKDaSkreech-pingme: Do you mean ryanakca?17:40
DaSkreech-pingmeryanakca: You be he ?17:40
seeleDaSkreech-pingme: /whois is an extremely useful IRC tool17:41
DaSkreech-pingmeseele: I can search for someone's real name with it?17:42
seeleDaSkreech-pingme: try it and tell me what you think :P17:42
DaSkreech-pingmeScottK: I was talkingabout Bitanga btw17:42
ScottKDaSkreech-pingme: Then no.17:42
DaSkreech-pingmesince you just refferend his blog17:42
ScottKDaSkreech-pingme: Nope.  Just read it on planet.kde.17:43
ryanakcaDaSkreech-pingme: Hmm? Ryan is my first name... but I don't know if I'm the one you're looking for.17:43
DaSkreech-pingmeryanakca: you be not! :)17:43
apacheloggerScottK: vacation :P17:44
ScottKThen go on one ...17:44
apacheloggerScottK: I am :P17:49
apacheloggerin a way17:49
RiddellDaSkreech-pingme: if you're on intrepid, it's known that digikam clashes with gwenview, even says so on kubuntu.org17:50
LureRiddell: unless they use kde4.2 and digikam-experimental17:50
DaSkreech-pingmeoooh digikam-experimental17:51
DaSkreech-pingmeWhich repo is that in?17:52
ScottKdigikam-experimental, I think.17:52
LureDaSkreech-pingme: https://edge.launchpad.net/~digikam-experimental/+archive/ppa17:52
ScottKRiddell: FYI, all the feedback I've gotten about the xorg-server without the Redhat/Compiz patch has been very positive.  Please don't let them put it back.17:57
DaSkreech-pingmeIt installs marble! Success!17:58
RiddellScottK: I need to read over the bugs again to make sure I'm properly familiar with the arguments17:58
ScottKRiddell: OK.  Just don't fall for 'we got here first, so you have to change'.  Upstream has told us to drop the patch before.18:00
RiddellScottK: which upstream?18:00
ScottKIt's in debian/changelog.18:01
ScottKIt was back in Feisty.18:01
ScottKAlso highlighted in my blog post on the topic. http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/01/bug_254468_momentary_video_gar.html18:01
DaSkreech-pingmeAnd crashes as soon as it starts \o/18:02
a|wenScottK: why would anybody want to put it back?18:05
ScottKa|wen: Because it helps compiz performance.18:06
rgreeningwhich is suspect whether it really does or not18:06
jjessedoes anyone have hard numbers on whether or not it actually improves?18:07
jjesseor is per video card?18:07
a|wenexactly my question18:08
ScottKIt does.  If you read the bug in question that's clear (link at the end of my blog)18:08
ScottKIt's a good hack, but it is a hack and they forgot to tell everyone else.18:08
* jjesse didn't read the bug18:10
a|wenit just says that it improved performance notably with compiz in feisty (tested pre-release)18:12
a|weni would think that both compiz, xorg and drivers probably have changed since then18:13
* a|wen would think that both upstream refusing and the creators of the patch dropping it is strong arguments as well18:14
LureScottK: nice catch of x-org patch - this was annoying me whole intrepid, but I thought it is my dying laptop (graphics overheating all the time)18:25
LureScottK: and on jaunty it flies18:25
ScottKIt seems to be helping people.18:26
ryanakcaWhich breadcrumb location is preferred? http://ryanak.ca/~ryan/kwiki1.png or http://ryanak.ca/~ryan/kwiki2.png ... Personally, I prefer the first one, but *shrug*.18:26
LureScottK: the only problem is that dropped patch did not solve overheating... :-(18:26
jjesseryanakca: #1 for me18:27
ScottKCan't help there.18:27
Lurebut good thing is I get new thinkpad soon ;-)18:27
ryanakcajjesse: thanks18:29
astromme#1 for me too18:29
astrommeLure: Mm, nice. What thinkpad?18:29
Lureastromme: x200s18:29
astrommeI hate the video garbage. It forced me to get this close | | to switching to another distro18:30
astrommeLure: So nice, so nice. I'm using a X61 tablet here.18:30
Lureastromme: this will be first thinkpad for me, so I am looking forward (been on toshiba and 3 hp's before)18:31
astrommeLure: thinkwiki is priceless. I use it every time I have to reinstall.18:31
Lureastromme: that is one of the reason for the switch - thinkpad's have best linux community18:32
* Lure had some problems with company's purchasing as it is hp oriented...18:32
a|wenryanakca: i would vote 118:32
astrommeAnd interestingly.... at my college we have ~50% macs. Of the remaining 50% I see way more ThinkPads than anything else.18:33
astrommethat is for student laptops.18:33
ScottKLast year I was in a big engineering meeting at a $CUSTOMER site.18:34
ryanakcaNumber one it is, thanks all :)18:34
ScottKIt was one VP, 20 or so engineers, and 2 consultants.18:35
ScottKEvery one of the engineers had a Mac (and they had a choice).18:35
ScottKThe VP had Windows and was taunted for it.18:35
ScottKI had Kubuntu.  The other consultant had Ubuntu.18:35
rgreeningMy office uses XP. I do my work from my own personal Laptop instead, and its running Jaunty. I avoid win when I can18:54
a|wenif i am to add a patch to kdeedu, should i add quilt as a build-dep (or is that implicit now)?18:54
rgreeningScottK: its funny that the VP used win and everyone else used something else18:55
rgreeninga|wen: I believe apachelogger said to add explicitly for now.18:55
ScottKa|wen: Add it if it's not htere.18:55
jjessergreening: the vp probablly only has ever used windows and the engineers/consultants were more tech savy and have tried other thing18:55
a|wenok, i'll do that ... thx both of you18:55
rgreeningand thats why the economy is failing. the top is laiden with people unwilling to change18:56
ScottKIn this case he clearly was uncomfortable because it clearly marked him as not one of the technical crowd.18:56
ScottKHe's pretty sharp and in the company's field is very technical, just not on laptops I guess.18:56
rgreeningInsteadof the thousands of jobs being cut, they should fire a few hundrad VP's and Execs all around. That'll save a lot and allow innovative thinkers to move up18:57
rgreeningsell their private jets for gawd sakes18:57
ScottKBottom line though is that MS has, IMO totally lost the mindshare of the people making ground level tech decisions in the tech industry.18:57
seelewhoot, paper on floss usability was accepted to oss200918:58
jjessecongrats seele19:00
seeleunfortunately it was done outside an institution so i have to shell out $1000 for a flight to the conference :(19:00
jjessethat sucks19:04
rgreeninggratz seele19:07
rgreeningI'll donate some money :)19:07
rgreeningseele: you should see if anyone else will help19:08
jjesseseele: what about frequetn flyer miles?19:08
a|wenany core-devs around to look at kdeedu? :) https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdeedu/ubuntu19:17
a|wenapachelogger: your marble.desktop ^^19:17
apacheloggera|wen: bzr add debian/patches && bzr ci && bzr push19:18
a|wenapachelogger: else i wouldn't bother you :P19:20
* apachelogger doesn't upload anyway :P19:21
apacheloggercan go in with $anotherfix or 4.2.119:21
a|wenhehe, no problem19:22
rgreeningRiddell: is /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kdesu supposed to be in the users path or app path?19:24
* ryanakca wonders if there would be any use for an Adept ``X available updates'' plasmoid19:26
jjesseryanakca: no reason for Adpet plasmoid as KPackagekit will be used in Jaunty19:29
ryanakcas/Adept //g19:30
astrommeAlthough, the plasmoid itself is still a good idea imho. Just make it with a dataengine and then have the dataengine change. Then it could be non-backend specific19:34
astrommeThe plasmoid itself would be really really simple. It would just connect to the dataengine and wait for the engine to send updates.19:35
astrommeThe engine would do the hooking into Adept (for now) and KPackageKit (for later)19:35
a|wenisn't there already a backend for those checks that shows when you log in to a vt ?19:39
Lureseele: quick question: should What's This texts start with "This is..." - I see this a lot, but then in the code they do not look that nice (repeating all over)19:46
seeleLure: i havent done too much work with Whats THis, that was ellen's thing..19:52
seeleLure: but it might be better to say "[this object] is.." instead of just "this is.."19:52
ScottKseele: BTW, I noticed that your http://usability.kde.org/information/people.php profile still points to an old blog.19:57
Lureseele: thanks, will see if I can find better, non-repetative way19:59
ryanakcaapachelogger: Hi, I don't know the whole story, but I noticed that that you removed python-plasma-examples in kde-workspace 4.1.80-0ubuntu1... Even if they don't get compiled, couldn't they get installed (in source form) for documentation purposes, since I'm guessing that's what one of their purposes was? T'would save those trying to write plasmoids and who want examples of code from having to grab an SVN checkout of it...20:01
a|weng'night everyone20:09
ScottK\o/ - Quassel MIR approved.20:10
rgreeningSime_: ping20:14
ScottKRiddell: I'll go ahead and adjust the seeds...20:14
JontheEchidnaso how are we doing on a kde3-less alpha4?20:22
ScottKk3b and KNM are the holdouts.20:22
ScottKBut at least we'll have an IRC client on CD now.20:23
rgreeningK3B is available (Tonio_ has a build). I have been using it successfully.20:23
rgreeningKNM is available but doesn't work fully for me. I can't get wep to work. wired is fine.20:24
JontheEchidnaplasmoid-network-manager would need a MIR20:26
rgreeningWe need a quassel tut page for Kubu users. Sounds like something for nixternal and jjesse to whip up (I need to convert to quassel)20:26
ScottKclaydoh had a great blog post a couple of days ago20:27
ScottKSomeone ought to steal that and shove it in the docs20:27
rgreeningoh... then thats a good start point for a doc page.20:27
rgreeningnixternal ^^^^20:27
rgreeningSime_: hey20:39
rgreeningSime_: wondering if pyQt 4.4.4 works with Qt.4.5.020:39
Sime_rgreening: dunno. I should I guess.20:40
rgreeningand same for the pyKDE20:40
rgreeningSime_: just wondering as the version of Qt bumped from 4.4.x to 4.5.x20:40
Sime_if PyQt works, then pykde should work too20:41
rgreeningok. I'll test build against Qt 4.5.0 and see if it compiles fine20:41
rgreeningty Sime_20:41
rgreeningScottK: ^^ re discusion earlier on Qt 4.5.020:41
rgreeningim out. later all20:42
ScottKrgreening: Then build Eric against that.  We've had problems there before.20:42
rgreeningok ScottK20:42
smartermaybe we should ask k3b's author if he plans to do a release before spring?20:55
jjessequassel tut page?21:00
=== rdieter is now known as rdieter_away
LaserJockScottK: what's up with kdeedu?21:36
ScottKa|wen fixed some desktop stuff.  It's in bzr.21:36
LaserJockI see21:37
LaserJockScottK: in what bzr repo?21:45
* ScottK consults his scrollback.21:45
LaserJockScottK: in the branches I have I've only got my last entry, not even the ubuntu2 upload21:45
ScottKLaserJock: https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdeedu/ubuntu is where he said it was21:47
LaserJockumm, odd21:48
LaserJockahh, I see21:49
LaserJockdarn it21:49
LaserJockthe branches are diverged because I couldn't push my commit21:49
ScottKWell I'm glad I pointed it out to you then ...21:50
LaserJockyeah, so when I was using gypsy to update it said it was all updated21:54
LaserJockbut I missed a lot21:55
ScottKapachelogger: ^^^ Apparently the magic script needs help ...21:56
JontheEchidnaisn't it gypsy pull?21:56
* JontheEchidna has no clue what bzr update does21:57
LaserJocki don't either21:57
LaserJockbut I don't have a gypsy pull21:57
LaserJockperhaps I'll just use bzr multi-pull ;-)21:57
LaserJockok, well22:06
LaserJockI have no idea what to do with this branch22:07
LaserJockI guess I'll just start from scratch22:07
ScottKpull, pull, diff, patch, ci, push.22:09
ScottKSomething like that.22:09
LaserJockwell, it just got messed up because I can't commit22:09
LaserJockso my changes were apparently commited by somebody else22:10
LaserJockbut slightly differently ;-)22:10
LaserJockScottK: hmm, I'm actually not quite sure about this .desktop change in kdeedu22:17
LaserJockI'm not sure if it's common practice to separate .desktop from binaries in KDE packages, but generally I think it's best to keep the .desktop with the binary it's calling22:18
ScottKLaserJock: I'd discuss it with apachelogger then as he was the one pushing for it.22:30
LaserJockyeah, I mean it fixes the problem22:30
LaserJockbut we can avoid patching  by just including the .desktop with the binary it runs22:30
LaserJockwhich makes logical sense to me anyway22:30
* ScottK dunno.22:31
* ScottK is about to leave for the DC KDE 4.2 release party.22:31
LaserJockawesome, have fun22:31
* astromme is sad that he can't attend even though his is in nearby Philadelphia22:33
astromme*he is in.. bleh, typing22:34
ScottKIf you left now, you'd get there before it was over ...22:35
astrommeI'm a student without access to a car =/. I thought about it.22:35
ScottKAh.  That's tough then.  I vaguely remember that condition (in Philadelphia too for that matter).22:35
JontheEchidnaanybody still running intrepid that could test this SRU: bug 272399?22:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 272399 in qt4-x11 "File watcher causes Plasma crash on mouseover" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27239922:36
astrommeIf you all ever have other events in the strip between NYC and DC, I'd love to come... I'd love even more to find some transportation =)22:36
* ScottK consults whois and notes that astromme isn't actually IN Philadelphia.22:39
* astromme nods, but I'm 20 minutes by train, and have a train at the foot of campus22:39
astrommeScottK: Are you in DC?22:41
ScottKWest of Baltimore.22:41
ScottKThe party is 45 minutes from my house an it's still north of DC.22:41
astrommeBah, this kcachegrind output is confusing as heck. And it seems to all be in libraries. bah22:42
ScottKWell I just uploaded a new kubuntu-meta that adds quassel.22:46
ScottKSput: ^^^ It's official, you're on the Kubuntu CD as of the next daily.22:46
astrommewell, have a good time ScottK. Sometime I'll figure out a way to meet other kde peeps =)22:46
ScottKUnless Soyuz ate my upload.  It still hasn't appeared.22:53
seeleScottK: geez, if you are on your way out the door you might be there before me22:58
seelei'm not leaving until 615 to try an get there in 30 minutes22:58
seeleScottK: if you do get there before me, try to get that big table we had last week.. otherwise the back corner of the bar looked like a good place for 10-15 people too22:59
=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
* seele heads out to par-tay kde-style23:13
ScottKI haven't left yet.  You'll get there first.23:14
rickspencer3seele: ping23:18
ScottKrickspencer3: I think she's left already for the KDE 4.2 release party.  I can pass a message when I see her?23:22
rickspencer3ScottK: thanks for the offer23:22
rickspencer3yeah, I guess it's after 6 on a Friday there23:22
rickspencer3I just started a usability related wiki page, and thought she might be interested23:23
rickspencer3I'll catch her next week prolly23:23
rickspencer3see you all around!23:23
=== blueyed_ is now known as blueyed

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