[00:18] <ryanakca> apachelogger: ping, following up on the marketing idea we had ages ago, what would you say if we started a KDE4 program of the day (well, start with week and then increase the frequency)?
[00:19] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: or feature of the day.  it seems that kde.org covers the programs basics pretty well.
[00:19] <ryanakca> apachelogger: Not that many end users read the planet (or so I'm told), but it would surely help increase awareness of what we have to offer
[00:20] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: *nod*. Along the lines of tip of the day as seen when an app is first run, or something else?
[00:21] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: hrm.  not sure.
[00:21]  * Hobbsee hasn't read the tips of the day in ages.
[00:21]  * Hobbsee has a kubuntu iso burnt now, though :)
[00:21] <ryanakca> Good good, comming back to the light side? :)
[00:21] <Hobbsee> perhaps
[00:21] <Hobbsee> we'll see
[00:26] <jjesse> don't... run from the dark side
[00:28] <Hobbsee> heh
[00:28] <Hobbsee> 4.2 looks a lot nicer.
[00:29] <Hobbsee> although using compiz with it sounds like a good idea.
[00:30] <DaSkreech> What does compiz have that you need?
[00:30] <Hobbsee> negate, for one
[00:31] <Hobbsee> does kde support dragging and dropping of windows on the taskbar to reorder them yet?
[00:31] <DaSkreech> Thats flipping the colours to negatizes I'm pretty sure kwin has that
[00:31] <Hobbsee> everything else is replicated, i think
[00:31] <DaSkreech> Yes
[00:31] <Hobbsee> oh, good
[00:31] <Hobbsee> \o/
[00:31] <DexterF> canonical seriously needs to do something about the i18n
[00:31] <Hobbsee> (both per-window negation and full negation
[00:32] <DaSkreech> I don't know I've never used it but I recall a video with it
[00:32] <Hobbsee> ahhh
[00:32]  * Hobbsee --> out
[00:39] <DexterF> DaSkreech: need to run. thanks for the help.
[00:39] <DaSkreech> DexterF: Works reasonably now?
[00:39] <DexterF> well, yes, kde itself works, got some issues that arose from transition, like: what on eart happened to xorg.conf
[00:40] <DexterF> back in 1999 I pretty much wrote it manually now there's not even a thing I can do and the vm keeps starting in the wrong res
[00:40] <astromme> Hobbsee: It's "Invert" in kwin config. First option under all effects. You can do per window and full desktop.
[00:41] <DexterF> tho I gues that's rather an X thing. what is a kubuntu thing perhaps is that when I logout from KDE I get a black screen, kdm won't come back
[00:43] <DexterF> and I can't find where to turn of system sounds and new themes aren't immediately applied. not at all to be precise. but I'll look into that tomorrow rather.
[00:45] <DaSkreech> ok
[00:46] <DexterF> bye
[03:50] <jjesse-dell9> grumble computer isnt responding correctly
[03:50] <jjesse-dell9> this sucks
[03:51] <rgreening> heh
[03:53] <jjesse-dell9> main laptop for work and once again i am away from home with disks
[03:55] <rgreening> doh
[03:56] <jjesse-dell9> stupid dell
[03:56] <jjesse-dell9> :)
[03:58] <jjesse-dell9> if i boot a live ubuntu cd can i run an fsck/repair of an ntfs partition?
[03:59] <DaSkreech> Yes
[03:59] <DaSkreech> With limited results
[03:59] <DaSkreech> 3/4 of the time it will mark a bunch of stuff as dirty and then get Windows to fix it on next boot
[04:00] <jjesse-dell9> well thats better then whats happening now
[04:10] <jjesse-dell9> hrmm gettting abn error that fsck.ntfs cannot be found
[04:26] <jjesse-dell9> wow this tottally sucks
[04:27] <DaSkreech> totally
[05:13] <jjesse> wow application that should launch at startup just opened up, 15 minutes after boot on my main laptop, still won't reboot all the way
[05:13] <jjesse> going to have to speend the ewwekend rebuilding :(
[05:15] <DaSkreech> Oh wow that sucks
[05:15] <jjesse> its the 2nd time in under two months, wonder if i can blame dell somehow for a replacement?
[05:30] <ScottK> OK, so the xorg hack blog post didn't draw a lot of comments.
[05:30] <ScottK> I guess I'm not being controversial enough.
[05:30] <jjesse> because they didn't understand it?
[05:36] <DaSkreech> You want vitrol ?
[05:47] <ScottK> Maybe it's the whole CoC thing.  People are just sooooo nice around here.
[05:47] <ScottK> I wanted more than two comments.
[05:47] <ScottK> I heated discussion like I had with the Compiz upstream on IRC yesterday would have been nice.
[05:49] <DaSkreech> Well also I think that people read packaging was uploaded by and gloss over in favour for new episodes of Lost pretty much instantly
[05:50] <DaSkreech> They have never packaged something they know nobody who has packaged something and they never intend to befriend a packager
[05:50] <DaSkreech> It's just not going to strike them much less mean enough to them to make any comments
[05:51]  * a|wen wonders what the subject are?
[05:56] <DaSkreech> One was X not having alt+ctrl+backspace
[05:56] <DaSkreech> The other was Compiz hacks causing video garbage
[05:57] <a|wen> oh
[05:59] <a|wen> do we know what we do in kubuntu about ctrl+alt+backspace ? ... i know we will have an option for it, but what about defaults?
[06:08] <ScottK> Default is off.  We have a gui to turn it back on.
[06:08] <jjesse-dell9> where is the ppa for quassel?
[06:08] <ScottK> Looks like Gnome will not have a GUI.
[06:08] <ScottK> jjesse-dell9: Intrepid?
[06:08] <jjesse-dell9> yes sir
[06:09] <ScottK> jjesse-dell9: It's in mine, ~kitterman
[06:09] <jjesse-dell9> is it ~scottk in lp
[06:09] <jjesse-dell9> ah
[06:09] <ScottK> No.  That's someone entirely different.
[06:09] <jjesse-dell9> entirerly different
[06:09] <a|wen> yeah, the gnome gui is sone, but will probably not be accepted
[06:10] <jjesse-dell9> with the update in in the ppa for kde 4.2 kontact no longer crashes on my inbox
[06:10] <jjesse-dell9> yay
[06:10] <ScottK> Yeah.  My next attempt at controversy will be to poke fun at this.
[06:10] <DaSkreech> People are arguing that it's bad to have alt+ctrl+backspace and it's bad to have a GUI to turn it on
[06:12] <a|wen> jjesse-dell9: they finally got around to fix that bug (i was hit too)
[06:14] <a|wen> but there does seem to be a point in alt+sysrq+k to be better ... we just need people to be used to that instead
[06:18]  * a|wen has never hit ctrl+alt+backspace by accident, and i'm almost always on a laptop
[06:18] <jjesse-dell9> ScottK: when i try to run quassel after installing from the launcher i get notified that "service '/usr/share/applications/quasse.desktop' is malfformatted
[06:19] <ScottK> Crap.
[06:19] <ScottK> Note that lack of an L there.
[06:19] <ScottK> I assume you copied and pasted?
[06:19] <ScottK> jjesse-dell9: ^^
[06:19] <jjesse-dell9> hold on did i type it right
[06:20] <jjesse-dell9> no i didnt type that right
[06:20] <ScottK> Whew
[06:20] <ScottK> OK.  KDE 4.1 or 4.2?
[06:20] <jjesse-dell9> it is service /usr/share/applications/quassel.desktop is malformatted
[06:20] <jjesse-dell9> 4.2 (thats what in the ppa correct?)
[06:21] <jjesse-dell9> runs fine otherwise
[06:22] <ScottK> Weird.  I don't even have the file.
[06:23]  * ScottK looks at the package
[06:24] <ScottK> Lost him ...
[06:28] <ScottK> jjesse-dell9: It should be in /usr/share/applications/kde4/
[06:29] <jjesse-dell9> ScottK: there is a file there
[06:30] <ScottK> Dunno why you have the on in /usr/share/applications
[06:30] <ScottK> Not sure how I just departed the channel either.
[06:31] <jjesse-dell9> hrmm i dont have one there trying to figure it out
[06:31] <DaSkreech> :-)
[06:31] <jjesse-dell9> i'll look in the morning as it is bedtime
[06:32] <ScottK> desktop-file-validate says it's fine.
[06:33]  * ScottK doesn't know what to say.
[06:34] <jjesse-dell9> hrm now it works fine
[06:34]  * jjesse-dell9 beds
[06:35] <ScottK> Great.
[06:35] <ScottK> Good night.
[07:41] <a|wen> it is definately a long discussion on that vcs-import about dontzap
[08:18] <stdin> ooh, qt 4.5 snapshot built in 1h 30min, debug build with demos + examples. icecc is my new bestest friend
[08:19] <a|wen> that's good speed
[08:20] <stdin> much better than I expected
[08:21]  * a|wen had building take forever
[08:22] <a|wen> s/had/has/
[08:22] <stdin> it was only with 2 noes too, this laptop and a 5year old desktop :)
[08:22] <stdin> (both single-core) with make -j5
[08:22] <a|wen> uhh, not bad then
[08:23]  * a|wen misses his dual-core laptop
[08:53] <markey> hey guys, I need some advice on MP3 patenting with Kubuntu
[08:53] <markey> if a commercial company were to use Kubuntu on their hardware
[08:53] <markey> and they need MP3 support
[08:53] <markey> preferrably with xinelib
[08:53] <markey> what would they need to do to make it legal?
[09:17] <stdin> markey: I guess purchase a license for the codec
[09:18] <stdin> I think a company needs a license for it anyway, since they are selling it
[09:18] <markey> ok I assumed so
[09:18] <markey> but I would ne precise information
[09:19] <markey> who should I contact?
[09:19] <markey> I need the exact pricing, etc
[09:19] <markey> everything
[09:19] <markey> s/ne/need
[09:20] <markey> do I have to talk to canonical, or to thompson, or who? :)
[09:20] <stdin> canonical don't license it
[09:21] <markey> so you're saying that this issue is between this company I represent and the MP3 patent holder?
[09:21] <markey> canonical is involved in no way?
[09:21] <markey> I thought they might be able to offer something
[09:21] <markey> like SUSE does, iirc
[09:21] <stdin> well, there are probably vendors that can sell licenses. rather than the patent holder
[09:21] <markey> I see
[09:22] <stdin> you can buy the Fluendo code pack from canonical's shop, but I don't see anything for commercial licenses
[09:23] <markey> fluendo means gstreamer, which currently means crappy phonon backend
[09:23] <markey> that's one problem
[09:23] <markey> is why I prefer xinelib currently
[09:23] <markey> until the gstreamer backend issues are solved
[09:23] <markey> which may or may not be the case with KDE 4.2
[09:24] <markey> I need 100% reliability
[09:24] <markey> crappiness is not an option ;)
[09:25] <stdin> we offer libxine1-ffmpeg, but we don't ship it by default. we get the application that wants to play the mp3 to ask the user if they want to install the codec (explaining the reasons we don't ship it by default) and then install it for them
[09:25] <markey> yes, I know that
[09:25] <stdin> so we don't do anything special with mp3 support, other than offer a semi-automatic way to get it
[09:26] <stdin> (which is currently not working in kubuntu ;)
[09:26] <markey> the company I represent would need to _ship_ a working MP3 solution on their hardware
[09:26] <markey> with kubuntu
[09:26] <markey> and Phonon
[09:26] <markey> (all KDE based)
[09:27] <serzholino> Hi! Can someone confirm https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=179947 ?
[09:28] <stdin> then it'd be between the company and a vendor (ianal)
[09:28] <markey> same here: inanal ;)
[09:28] <markey> so I need an expert to talk to
[09:43] <Tm_T> hi markey
[09:44] <markey> hi
[10:09] <jon_> Hi there. I'm having a problem that it seems others have. When I minimize windows after some use, they look somewhat "scrambed". A redraw problem of some kind. Is it specific to Intel or a more widespread problem?
[10:10] <jon_> "scrambled" would make more sense I imagine.
[10:43] <Hobbsee> astromme: sweet, thanks!
[11:02] <mrvanes> Does anybody know why kde-pim packages still aren't up to 4.2.0 release in amd64?
[11:03] <mrvanes> both crested and yellow are idle, and have no jobs in queue?
[11:04] <Hobbsee> markey: I believe you're looking for http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=19&osCsid=afcd1ed3b1b70182b850e5767b366981
[11:06] <Hobbsee> mrvanes: kdepimlibs?
[11:06] <Hobbsee> mrvanes: and in which release?
[11:07] <markey> Hobbsee: thanks, but as I explained above, Fluendo isn't currently an option for me
[11:08] <markey> it might be, if Phonon-GStreamer is fixed
[11:08] <markey> which has yet to be seen
[11:08] <markey> the reports we get are horrible
[11:09] <Hobbsee> markey: oh, that's a nuisance.  You could try contacting them, asking if they could provide other bits, too.
[11:09] <markey> and I'm personally not a big fan of gstreamer, for one reason or another
[11:09] <markey> but meh, if it works..
[11:09] <markey> well if ;)
[11:09] <Hobbsee> bah.  stdin mentioned what I said anyway.  I missed that, while reading
[11:09] <Hobbsee> heh
[11:09] <markey> np
[11:10] <Nightrose> markey: talk to jcastro - he will be able to send you to the right person
[11:10] <markey> ah ok, thanks :)
[11:10] <mrvanes> Hobbsee: the complete kdepim suite is still at 4.1.96, except kdepim meta package
[11:11] <mrvanes> Jaunty btw
[11:11] <Hobbsee> oh, there we go.
[11:11]  * Hobbsee has a look, now that enough info has been provided to start looking
[11:12] <markey> "Jorge Fernando "Locomotora" Castro (Spanish: locomotive), (born August 18, 1967 in Caleta Olivia, Santa Cruz province) is an Argentine boxer and former Middleweight champion of the world, who is best known for his second defense of the title against John David Jackson in 1994."
[11:12] <markey> ok, I guess that's another jorge ;)
[11:13] <markey> found the right one
[11:13] <Hobbsee> hrm.
[11:15] <Hobbsee> mrvanes: which mirror are you using?
[11:15] <mrvanes> nl
[11:15] <Hobbsee> ah
[11:15] <Hobbsee> it's probably not resynced yet.
[11:16] <Hobbsee> it'll come through, it's on the main archive now.
[11:16] <mrvanes> Wow... but it's been a couple of _days_
[11:16] <mrvanes> ok, thx for looking!
[11:16] <Hobbsee> it was queued a couple of days ago
[11:16] <Hobbsee> looks like amd64 had a massive backlog
[11:16] <Hobbsee> it only finished building 2 hours ago
[11:16] <mrvanes> heard THAT before on this channel ;)
[11:16] <Hobbsee> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/4:4.2.0-0ubuntu3/+build/850290
[11:16] <mrvanes> Ok... clear
[11:17] <mrvanes> anyone using quassel?
[11:18] <mrvanes> Never mind... found it...
[11:42] <ScottK> If jon_ from about an hour and a half ago comes back and asks about the garbage on the screen, please point him at http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/01/bug_254468_momentary_video_gar.html
[11:42]  * ScottK goes back to bed ...
[11:50] <a|wen> uh, konqueror in kde4.2 actually beats firefox 3.0.5 in the acid3 test
[12:44] <knusperfrosch> ScottK: is that why my background(=desktop+plasmoids on it)  won't get painted again unless i click on it? (happens for windows sometimes too, buttons get painted again as i focus them). or is this why icons in systray look like noise on the screen and are replaces with the real icon after a while?
[12:45] <knusperfrosch> s/replaces/replaced/
[12:56] <Riddell> Arby: ooh, look what I got working! http://www.kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/s-c-p-k2.png
[13:05] <Arby> Riddell: woohoo :)
[13:05] <Arby> I could never figure out how the gnoem version worked for that part
[13:05] <Arby> *gnome
[13:05] <knusperfrosch> btw: how can i make the print dialog remember the last settings?
[13:05] <Riddell> Arby: well it does fancy things to create the GUI on the fly
[13:05] <Arby> yeah, black magic :)
[13:06] <Riddell> Arby: the Profiles page doesn't seem to exist in the Gnome version now, I guess I can just delete that tab
[13:06] <Arby> fair enough
[13:06] <Arby> Riddell: did you get anywhere with the thread wierdness in kcm?
[13:07] <Arby> last I saw Sime suggested switching to processes rather than threads
[13:07] <Riddell> Arby: indeed, I guess we'd need to get rid of the threads to get it into a kcm
[13:08] <Arby> *shudder* that sounds quite hard
[13:08] <Riddell> mm, yes
[13:08] <Arby> I might have a play this weekend if I get time
[13:08] <Arby> but we might have to postpone that to jaunty +1
[13:09] <Riddell> Arby: it might turn out to be trivial for all I know, possibly it can just do whatever the thread does but we add a few QApplication.processEvents() around the place to keep the UI responsive
[13:09] <Arby> on the plus side it's reassuring to know that it wasn't just me :)
[13:10] <Arby> Riddell: I'll have a poke at it if you don't get there first
[13:10] <Riddell> Arby: where should I put my branch?
[13:10] <Riddell> in kubuntu-members?
[13:10] <Arby> Riddell: is that the standalone version? if yes then k-members
[13:10] <Riddell> yes
[13:11] <Arby> I kept meaning to move mine and never did
[13:11] <Arby> then at some point I guess we have to move it upstream
[13:12] <Arby> Riddell: what's the best way to do that ^^?
[13:12] <Arby> make small batches from bzr and commit those upstream
[13:12] <Arby> *patches
[13:12] <Arby> bzr diff -rX..Y blah
[13:12] <Arby> etc
[13:13] <Riddell> bzr push <new location>
[13:13] <Arby> can bzr push to svn?
[13:13] <Arby> didn't know that
[13:14] <Riddell> not easily, it would probably involve using bzrsvn and starting with a bzr branch from svn
[13:14] <Riddell> I'd just put it all into svn and point to the bzr branch for people who want the history
[13:14] <apachelogger> who wants a cookie?
[13:14] <Arby> me
[13:14] <Arby> Riddell: fair enough
[13:14] <Riddell> apachelogger: got any ginger cookies?
[13:14]  * a|wen waves to apachelogger
[13:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: nope :|
[13:15] <Riddell> I can't work out how to delete a tab from a QTabWidget in qtdesigner
[13:16] <apachelogger> a|wen: marble needs a TryExec
[13:16] <apachelogger> patched + upstream
[13:16] <apachelogger> now that libmarble depends on -data there is telling if the binary is really installed
[13:16] <apachelogger> a|wen: marble.desktop that is
[13:16] <Riddell> oh Arby, you need to learn to add layouts to your widgets :)
[13:17] <apachelogger> <3 layouts
[13:17] <apachelogger> I think that is one of the first things you learn in any Qt book :P
[13:17] <a|wen> marble looks cool :)
[13:17] <apachelogger> a|wen: not if the bin is not installed and that darn entry in my menu is suggesting it is
[13:18] <a|wen> nope :P
[13:18] <a|wen> uh, mplayer ftbfs during build... not good
[13:18] <apachelogger> uninteresting :P
[13:18] <apachelogger> a|wen: go fix marble
[13:18] <apachelogger> hm
[13:19] <a|wen> do we have it packaged?
[13:19] <apachelogger> a|wen: kdeedu
[13:20] <apachelogger> and fix it upstream for 4.3 and 4.2.1
[13:20] <apachelogger> much more important actually
[13:20] <Arby> Riddell: I know
[13:20] <apachelogger> also ... can someone please tell these gnome rabbits that I don't care whether their X config allows turning ctrl+alt+bkspace off and that they shall pretty please stop flooding my inbox?
[13:20] <Arby> I can never make the layouts behave how I want
[13:21]  * a|wen has no upstream powers ... except filing a bug ;)
[13:21] <apachelogger> a|wen: Riddell does
[13:22] <Riddell> what's wrong with marble?
[13:22] <apachelogger> Riddell: libmarble needs -data, -data contains marble.desktop, marble bin is in marble, making marble.desktop useless ... so marble.desktop needs a TryExec
[13:23] <apachelogger> or the file needs to be moved to marble package ... but from my point of view any application desktop file should have a tryexec anyway
[13:24] <a|wen> or both
[13:24] <a|wen> don't we normally ship executables + related .desktop in same package?
[13:24] <apachelogger> that depends on what you define as normal
[13:25] <apachelogger> a|wen: talk to debian if they want to move the desktop file
[13:25] <apachelogger> if so, all the better, but the file needs a tryexec
[13:29] <a|wen> apachelogger: i'll look at it and commit to bzr later ... and try to talk to the debian people
[13:29]  * a|wen goes to have dinner
[13:40] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: why are you getting mail?
[13:41] <JontheEchidna> prolly a mailing list I don't subscribe to
[13:43] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: You're not core-dev.  It's a bzr branch that every core-dev is getting.
[13:43] <JontheEchidna> aaah
[13:56] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: My last blog post links to the discussion.  See p.u.c.
[13:57] <ScottK> p = planet
[13:57] <JontheEchidna> well, I sorta take the same position as apachelogger, I dun care :P
[13:58] <ScottK> The part I care about is the process issue.  We had an agreement at UDS, an approved spec, someone does the code, and then it's all overturned.
[14:00] <rgreening> Tonio_: Still no go with wep wireless here. I've tried everything to make it work. only time it works is with knetworkmanager hanging around, and thats just due to dbus info
[14:06] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: Hmm, that is a bit concerning
[14:15]  * a|wen has got cookies :)
[14:35] <ScottK> We got kdelibs working without arts, right?
[14:44] <a|wen> ScottK: yeah
[14:45] <ScottK> There's someone over in #debian-qt-kde trying to do that and failing so far.  Dunno if it's be worthwhile to offer help.
[14:45] <a|wen> the only question is how much we broke ... eg. basket needs libartskde
[14:46] <ScottK> Right, well he's just on getting kdelibs to compile.
[14:46] <a|wen> ScottK: you can see what apachelogger did ... it's one of the last uploads
[14:47] <ScottK> I was rather hoping someone else would.
[14:47] <ScottK> I've got a meeting here in a few minutes.
[14:47] <a|wen> it's on the debian irc, right?
[14:49] <ScottK> yeah.  OFTC
[14:49] <a|wen> okay ... i've joined now
[14:50] <a|wen> i'll keep an eye out if someone actually says anything
[14:51] <rgreening> anyone know how to use app-install-data package? I'm trying to add app only view to kpackagekit and I believe it would use app-install-data for this.
[14:51] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: adept is probably a good reference
[14:52] <rgreening> yeah, that's what I am looking at...
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> packagedata.h and applicationswidget.h look interesting
[14:56] <a|wen> apachelogger: regarding the marble issue ... why don't marble-data depend on marble? can marble-data be used by itself in any case?
[14:59] <ScottK> Riddell: Release team meeting in 1 minute....
[14:59] <Riddell> whee
[15:01] <a|wen> apachelogger: and if we are going to add tryexec, we should do it for all of them ... seems pretty consistent
[15:02] <a|wen> on my system 3 out of 82 files in the folder with marble.desktop has a tryexec :/
[15:04] <ScottK> How's your sed?
[15:04] <rgreening> sed is teh shiz
[15:05] <rgreening> sed -i 's/[search]/[replace]/g' [filelist
[15:06] <seele> did i see someone passing around cookies?
[15:06]  * seele wants an almond cookie
[15:07]  * a|wen only got chocolate and custard cream
[15:07] <a|wen> tried looking for add flavours in the shop... but there wasn't any
[15:08] <apachelogger> a|wen: there are more application desktop files in that package?
[15:09] <a|wen> apachelogger: don't know about in that particular package ...
[15:09] <apachelogger> a|wen: also: no -data package depends a binary package ... mostly because the relation all to any is invalid ;-)
[15:09] <apachelogger> or lets say, not very wise
[15:09] <apachelogger> a|wen: so, by all of them you meant all of KDE?
[15:10] <a|wen> yeah... or what i have installed
[15:10] <apachelogger> good fun with that :P
[15:10] <apachelogger> a|wen: that also ough to be discussed on kde-devel for starts
[15:10] <a|wen> many of the kde packages have same structure (eg. [program] and [program]-date) ... where [program] holds binary and [program]-data holds .desktop
[15:10] <Riddell> ScottK: hmm, I guess I'm ment to be giving a report
[15:11] <ScottK> I'm not sure if the 'desktop' person is mean to report Kubuntu and you're there as a release person or not.
[15:11] <apachelogger> a|wen: well, I think only debian based distros split out the data, so that is hardly a good reason to add tryexec everywhere :P
[15:11] <apachelogger> oh
[15:11] <apachelogger> vacation! :P
[15:11] <ScottK> In the past I've given Kubuntu reports when you weren't around.
[15:12] <a|wen> apachelogger: seems as though they are meant not to be there ... so we + debian ought to add tryexec ourselves i think
[15:13] <Pici> I know this isn't exactly directly related to this channel's topic, but perhaps one of you could prod someone to get bug 112673 fixed.  That page is in dire need of an update.
[15:13] <apachelogger> a|wen: well, it does not hurt to have them there ... there is just no rationale that applies to non-debian distros or source installations, so adding it to all applications in KDE would be a rather pointless part
[15:14] <apachelogger> a|wen: which is why I would just add it to those where it is necessary for us and debian, which is right now marble
[15:15] <a|wen> apachelogger: okay ... and a few others just in kdeedu
[15:15] <apachelogger> Pici: like why does that not just forward to kubuntu.org?
[15:16]  * apachelogger finds it inefficient to maintain 2 versions, where our team only got direct access to one anyway
[15:16] <apachelogger> a|wen: like?
[15:16] <Pici> apachelogger: That would work too
[15:16] <apachelogger> a|wen: marble is really only a problem because of libmarble
[15:17] <apachelogger> a|wen: being able to install -data packages without bins is just fine most of the time ... but if a library depends on the -data package, or if the -data package contains desktop files for more than one binary there should at least be proper tryexec in place
[15:17] <a|wen> apachelogger: ahh, i see your point
[15:18]  * apachelogger just noticed that he didn't eat anything yet, which explains why he is cold
[15:18] <apachelogger> Pici: care to add a comment about that?
[15:22] <Pici> apachelogger: I'll type up something to that effect.
[15:22] <rgreening> seele: I'm looking at kpackagekit right now. Do you have an idea on what you'd like to see?
[15:23] <rgreening> seele: The left panel are module based (i.e. Software Management, Software Updates, Settings). I can probably make a new one called Add/Remove Programs... though I am unsure about this.
[15:24] <apachelogger> Pici: thx
[15:24] <rgreening> seele: Software Management is Add/Remove .. so maybe it needs to be tweaked...
[15:26] <seele> rgreening: we can figure out the label, the important part is getting a page that has a list of applications instead of packages
[15:26] <seele> rgreening: then there are a few tweaks to search, but i think the list of applications should come first
[15:26] <ScottK> Riddell: What Kubuntu parts for the Dx stuff?
[15:27] <Riddell> ScottK: no idea
[15:27] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I didn't speak up in the release meeting because I'm not there as a Kubuntu person, but as motu-release, but this is most unwelcome news.
[15:27] <rgreening> seele: ok. I'll see what I can cobble together. My C++ is a bit rusty, but the kpackagekit code seems very well written.
[15:28] <Riddell> ScottK: having people develop for Kubuntu should be welcome news
[15:28] <ScottK> Riddell: Having their crap notification stuff inserted in a way that totally bypasses the community is not.
[15:28] <rgreening> seele: if you want to mock up a pic of the layout you'd like ot see, I'll make the code changes and a patch
[15:29] <Riddell> we can hardy comment on it before we've seen it
[15:29] <rickspencer3> ScottK: it is not going to "bypass" that community
[15:29] <ScottK> rickspencer3: So far it has.
[15:29] <seele> ScottK: no code has been committed to kubuntu
[15:29] <ScottK> seele: http://paste.ubuntu.com/111734/ <-- Release team meeting.
[15:29] <rickspencer3> I have to focus on the release meeting, so let's talk later
[15:29] <rickspencer3> but seriously, no one is planning to force anyone to do anything
[15:30] <ScottK> We can talk later.
[15:31] <rgreening> hrmph...
[15:32] <rgreening> I would think Riddell would be voice #1 for Kubuntu and would be involved with any of those discussions from the start so as to hae the community ear.
[15:34] <a|wen> i would rather think that changing how notificaions work should be done upstream ...
[15:34] <a|wen> if it is to be changed
[15:35] <ScottK> a|wen: I agree.
[15:37] <rgreening> I wonder if anyone looking at notifications is using >= KDE4.1.96.. the notifications are slick and have the unified drop box already (for ongoing things like downloads).
[15:38] <a|wen> yeah, they are definitely nice in kde 4.2
[15:39] <Riddell> the 4.2 notifications are surprisingly close to how they designed the Ubuntu Desktop stuff from an artistic view
[15:40] <rgreening> yeah, so let's just say it works and move on :)
[15:44] <rgreening> ScottK: so the Kvirc package seems to be ok.. working icons and all now (wasn't in first one I sent).
[15:45] <ScottK> Excellent.
[15:45] <rgreening> ScottK: are you able to test under Gnome (or know someone who can). to test the Gnome integration
[15:45] <ScottK> If you want another Universe one, you might look at Krusader and see if we should update our snapshot of that.
[15:45] <ScottK> rgreening: No Gnome here.
[15:47] <ryanakca> Could someone look at bug 312880 please? I'm not sure what project I should change it to.
[15:48] <a|wen> apachelogger: after some grepping we need to look at adding tryexec to .desktop files marble-data and kdebase-{runtime,workspace}-data
[15:49] <Riddell> ryanakca: seems invalid to me
[15:50] <ScottK> ryanakca: I agree.  They've got some 3rd party stuff installed.
[15:51] <rgreening> ScottK: I'll take a stab at Krusader
[15:52] <ScottK> Should be easier than Kvirc.  It's already KDE4.
[15:52] <rgreening> anyone got Gnome installed and can test Kvirc4.0.0 under Gnome for me?
[15:52] <rgreening> ScottK: yeah, that was a learning experience. But a good one...
[15:53] <ScottK> Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger ...
[15:53] <rgreening> yup
[15:54]  * rgreening is preparing a new upload of Qt 4.5 snapshot (as soon as I fix the build)
[15:55] <rgreening> kubotu help twitter
[15:55] <kubotu> twitter status [nick] => show nick's (or your) status, use 'twitter friends status [nick]' to also show the friends' timeline | twitter update [status] => updates your status on twitter | twitter identify [username] [password] => ties your nick to your twitter username and password | twitter actions [on|off] => enable/disable twitting of actions (/me does ...)
[15:56] <rgreening> ~twitter actions off
[15:56] <kubotu> okay
[15:56] <DaSkreech> awww :-(
[15:56] <rgreening> ~twitter identify rgreening
[15:56] <kubotu> incorrect usage, ask for help using 'kubotu: help twitter'
[15:56] <rgreening> ~twitter actions on
[15:56] <kubotu> sure
[15:57]  * rgreening is preparing a new upload of Qt 4.5 snapshot (as soon as I fix the build)
[15:57] <rgreening> \o/
[15:58] <apachelogger> a|wen: deps go against kdebase-runtime ...workspace has as similar state ... just trust me ... we only need it for marble.desktop :P
[15:59] <rgreening> ScottK: seems a beta was released of Krusader
[15:59] <a|wen> apachelogger: okay... i'll trust you then
[15:59] <a|wen> :P
[15:59] <ScottK> rgreening: The last svn I uploaded was a few commits past the beta.
[15:59] <ScottK> Unless there was another one ...
[15:59] <rgreening> Ah.. ya, just reading the changelog in the deb
[16:00] <rgreening> ScottK: I'll check the commit
[16:01] <rgreening> ScottK: newest is 8hrs old and at 6194 (18 commits)
[16:02] <rgreening> lots of fixes in those commits.
[16:03]  * rgreening goes off to update krusader package to latest SVN commit 6194
[16:04] <ScottK> Excellent.
[16:11] <rgreening> :P
[16:16] <ryanakca> Riddell, ScottK: thanks
[16:16] <ScottK> No problem.  Thanks for pointing it out.
[16:21] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Is now a good time to chat then?
[16:22] <rickspencer3> ScottK: yeah sure
[16:23] <ScottK> rickspencer3: From my perspective as  community Kubuntu developer, I stil have zero idea of what Dx is considering.
[16:23] <ScottK> There are no public specs written and we are less than 3 weeks from feature freeze.
[16:23] <rickspencer3> ScottK: understood
[16:24] <rickspencer3> however ...
[16:24] <rgreening> Shouldn't the Kubuntu team be involved from the start?
[16:24]  * ScottK would think.
[16:24]  * ScottK is going to listen to the however though.
[16:24] <rickspencer3> they discussed this with everyone at UDS
[16:24] <rgreening> we do the heavy lifting and answer to the user base
[16:25] <rickspencer3> and they published the design specs such that they had, in the form of movies
[16:25] <rickspencer3> etc...
[16:25] <rgreening> rickspencer3: I agree there was a discussion but not necessarily buyin nor any followup since
[16:25] <rgreening> with us here
[16:25] <rickspencer3> so first, I would ask that you default to an assumption of good intentions on everyone's part
[16:26] <rgreening> I'll conceed that... but... we need a discussion (I would think) and soon.
[16:26] <ScottK> rickspencer3: It's been almost two months since UDS with zero followup.
[16:26]  * astromme is thrilled to have his KMail back in jaunty. No crashes!
[16:26] <rickspencer3> There hasn't been *zero* follow up
[16:26] <davidbarth> hey ScottK, we're not perfect, but we're trying hard to have something for kubuntu
[16:26] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Aslo, as you saw in the last Kubuntu meeting, in Kubuntu specs are approved by the Kubuntu Council and so Canonical deciding to land something unilaterally is decidely out of process.
[16:27] <ScottK> davidbarth: Do you know if you have anything Kubuntu wants?
[16:27] <rickspencer3> hi davidbarth
[16:27] <rgreening> o/ davidbarth
[16:27] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I can assure you that no one thinks they can simply "land" something in Kubuntu
[16:27] <davidbarth> ScottK: i'm not sure this is the right question to ask
[16:27] <rgreening> Tonio_: knm still no luck with wep
[16:28] <ScottK> davidbarth: Others may have a different view, but I'm pretty sure it is.
[16:28] <davidbarth> ScottK: we have proposed a few new elements, and we're trying to see how that can work in kubuntu
[16:28] <DaSkreech> If I install digikam it removes plasmoids and gwenview
[16:29] <davidbarth> davidbarth: i listen to the feedback on the notifications
[16:29] <ScottK> DaSkreech: Try digikam-kde4 if we have one?
[16:29] <davidbarth> davidbarth: however, i'm a man of code, i shut up when i don't have some to show
[16:29] <ScottK> I don't recall where we are on that.
[16:29] <rickspencer3> hehe
[16:30] <davidbarth> davidbarth: atm i don't have anything worth a build, so this is why you don't hear much about us
[16:30] <ScottK> davidbarth: I'm a system engineer by trade, so I generally see design followed by implementation.
[16:30] <davidbarth> davidbarth: at uds we discussed two things mainly
[16:30] <davidbarth> the notifications
[16:30] <davidbarth> and the message indicator
[16:30] <rgreening> davidbarth: KDE 4.2 has both of these working in good order for Jaunty/Intrepid
[16:31] <davidbarth> the message indicator is currently implemented as a g_object library with a D-Bus binding
[16:31] <Riddell> rgreening: it really doesn't
[16:31] <DaSkreech> Doesn't exist digikam is digikam now it seems
[16:31] <davidbarth> ScottK: you can find good counter-argument, that's quite an easy rhetoric, i'm just telling you what i know
[16:31] <ScottK> DaSkreech: It's still the KDE3 one then.
[16:31] <rgreening> Riddell: hmm... not sure what you mean there.
[16:32] <davidbarth> davidbarth: and what i'm on is to make the d-bus calls to talk with this part
[16:32] <ScottK> davidbarth: First, welcome.  I think we should have had this talk weeks ago.
[16:32] <rgreening> working does not mean looks like the Gnome implementation
[16:32] <rgreening> :P
[16:32] <Riddell> rgreening: there's no message indicator, several apps don't use the notifications and there's no common standard between gnome and kde
[16:32] <davidbarth> ScottK: ;)
[16:32] <rgreening> Riddell: I'll conceed that
[16:32] <ScottK> Riddell: But K(U)buntu going off on a tangent that's unacceptable upstream doesn't help that.
[16:33] <rickspencer3> ScottK: Do you feel that davidbarth's team is not entitled to experiment with new ways of doing things?
[16:33] <DaSkreech> Riddell: technically there is a common standard but no one uses it since it's pretty rubbish
[16:33] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Not in a release, no.
[16:34] <ScottK> davidbarth: For Notifications, what is it that you would want different from what Knotify does in 4.2?
[16:34] <rgreening> experimentation is great , but needs to be presented
[16:34] <rickspencer3> It seems that many projects that are notifications related have been started recently, and aren't upstream
[16:34] <rgreening> as an option
[16:35] <Riddell> ScottK: the things I listed all seem like they should be acceptable to upstream
[16:35] <rgreening> I think there are two issues: 1) make Gnome KDE Knotify aware and 2) make KDE, Gnome notify aware. Anything beyond that is a fundamental shift to the Idelas of KDE/Kubuntu
[16:35] <seele> rgreening: there is nothing wrong with the proposed message indicator, there is currently a plasmoid which attempts to do something similar
[16:36] <seele> i think if the DX team wants to develop a plasmoid for Kubuntu to do what their indicator does for Ubuntu, that would be great
[16:36] <ScottK> Riddell: I think that the idea that clicking on a notification doing something useful is bad and must be stopped is not.
[16:36] <davidbarth> ScottK: so far I don't think we'll have enough consensus AND code for knotify for this release
[16:36] <seele> and it's still configurable so if users dont like it they can remove teh plasmoid like anything else
[16:36] <Riddell> rgreening: there's really no reason why everything woulkd be a fundamental shift
[16:36] <rgreening> seele: I agree, as this is an option a user can have or not.
[16:36] <ScottK> I think what seele is suggesting has merit.
[16:37] <ScottK> If this is something optional that users can add if they choose to opt-in to the experiment.
[16:37] <Riddell> ScottK: that's one aspect, you seem to be assuming from that one aspect that the whole project is a fail
[16:37] <ScottK> Riddell: I think that aspect is very problematic.
[16:38] <davidbarth> this is why i'm focusing on the message indicator
[16:38] <rgreening> Riddell: I guess I was thinking about the idea that Gnome wants ot oversimplify the notifications and make them entirely transient
[16:38] <ScottK> There is currently a bug in our Quassel package that keeps that from working and I'd hate to get stuck with it as a feature.
[16:38] <ScottK> I do think the pushback has been about notifications.
[16:39] <Riddell> rgreening: as I say, that's only one aspect
[16:39] <rgreening> At any rate, this is something we should probably cooperate more openly on (i.e. have a discussion on the spec, what can be implemented and what should or should not be), etc).
[16:39] <davidbarth> ScottK: bug #?
[16:39] <ScottK> davidbarth: I guess I'm not sure I understand well enough what distinguished MI?
[16:39] <DaSkreech> ScottK: That's why it's an experiment. It was stated up front this might now work If it's opt in for the users how bad can it be?
[16:39] <ScottK> davidbarth: I didn't file a bug on it, I've been discussing it with upstream.
[16:40] <ScottK> With KDE integration off, their QT4 build the notification feeback works.
[16:40] <davidbarth> ScottK: the MI is made to quickly switch back to messaging applications for which notifications have recently been shown
[16:40] <ScottK> Ah.
[16:40] <ScottK> OK.  I understand that then.
[16:41] <davidbarth> ScottK: as part of the discussions we had at UDS, it was clear that this use case was really important for users who are used to clicking on notifications
[16:41] <rickspencer3> I think it will work very well for users
[16:41] <ScottK> I think if there were a plasmoid that provided that feature that users would install it would be uncontroversial.
[16:41] <rgreening> I don't think there's a fundamental disagreement on implementing this, only in the details and the communication and whether it's optional or not.
[16:41] <ScottK> davidbarth: It's still, i think, a totally bad design to flash a notification at someone and then expect them not to click on it, but something else if the notificaiton is still present.
[16:42] <rgreening> ScottK: agreed. It's about choice here
[16:43] <davidbarth> ScottK: this is a complex topic, i think seele's documents that quite well
[16:43] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I think the MI in addition to feedback via clicking on a notification is fine.  It's the instead of that I find flat out bizarre.
[16:43] <rickspencer3> I think one important thing to keep in mind is that the notifications system must have the MI indicator ready at the same time, or the lack of actions will be bad
[16:44] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I think it works well.
[16:44] <DaSkreech> MI ?
[16:44] <rickspencer3> The notion is that you never have to think about whether to click on a notification
[16:44] <davidbarth> however, I have not read the latest messages, but i think there are different kind of notifications, and we propose a solution that is good for the ones that should not interrupt the user
[16:44] <rickspencer3> either you can't, or you can go to the MI when you are ready to
[16:44] <davidbarth> for notifications that are *meant*  to interrupt the user, i think the MI is a good solution
[16:44] <rickspencer3> I think it is a strong and very user-centered design
[16:45] <DaSkreech> MI ?
[16:45] <rickspencer3> davidbarth: good point
[16:45] <rickspencer3> MI = Messaging Indicator
[16:45] <DaSkreech> OK
[16:45] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Right, but I usually decide immediately if I'm going to deal with it.  If the notification is still there, I'm going to click on it.
[16:45] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I still have to decide the same if it's in a notificaiton or in MI.
[16:45] <rickspencer3> But in this way, users don't have to decide. A burden has been lifted
[16:45] <davidbarth> but for the other cases, there are different (controversial, anyway, to-be-discussed) solutions that can improve the situation
[16:45] <ScottK> Not at all.
[16:46] <rgreening> burden? heh
[16:46] <ScottK> The decision is still required.  You just move it.
[16:46] <ScottK> rgreening: Gnome thinking IMO.
[16:47] <davidbarth> as a normal user, i feel interrupted by the current notifications, but most of the time i don't like the interface that notification windows are offering me
[16:47] <rgreening> delaying a decision makes it easier to not make one which can have negative results on performance
[16:47] <ScottK> davidbarth: You've used KDE 4.2?
[16:47] <davidbarth> that's personal taste, but i wouldn't try to work on that if i didn't feel it does solve a problem (not all, but still ;)
[16:48] <davidbarth> ScottK: not regularly, why?
[16:48] <ScottK> davidbarth: Then you're not liking a design you've never tried.
[16:49]  * astromme likes the notifications in 4.2. All plasmaified goodness that's subtle and hideable
[16:49] <ScottK> Notifications in 4.2 are radically different and improved from 4.1.
[16:49] <rgreening> I think one needs ot work in the environment before deciding what needs to change in the environment. How can one suggest improvements without being intimately familiar in it.
[16:49] <rickspencer3> I think there is value in offering their great work to KDE
[16:49] <ScottK> If you're basing your opinion of notifications in KDE based on 4.1, I would encourage you to step back from your conclusions.
[16:50] <rickspencer3> I would expect that we would all consider the work with open mind, based on it's merits
[16:50] <rickspencer3> I think davidbarth was referring to notification system in general, and not necessarily based on a specific experience
[16:50] <ScottK> rickspencer3: This is very difficult when work is done out of process away from the community.
[16:51] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I think we need to get past that. That point has been made, and now we're discussing next steps.
[16:51] <davidbarth> ScottK: i don't know, which notifications in particular would you like me to see? the ones used by the update-manager?
[16:52] <rickspencer3> if we assume that everyone has good intentions and is working on behalf of the users we will be able to make a lot of progress in this discussion
[16:52] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I agree, I just think we have some very fundamental differences about what is good for the users.
[16:53] <rickspencer3> ScottK: right, and that is a very healthy discussion to have
[16:53] <rickspencer3> One of the strengths of Linux, I think ...
[16:53] <ScottK> I think KDE and Gnome have very different perspectives about usability and it shows here.
[16:53] <rickspencer3> is that the code can decide a lot of those issues, as users adopt or reject options
[16:53] <davidbarth> btw, i don't feel we're really that away from the community, we're too few to work on KDE yet and really busy coding
[16:54] <astromme> davidbarth: Try Kopete notifications, solid (i.e. powermanager) notifications, file transfers, network connectivity.
[16:54] <ScottK> davidbarth: IIRC this is the first time I've seen you here.
[16:54] <rickspencer3> ScottK: Keep in mind this is a *Canonical* contribution to the Desktop ecosystem
[16:54] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Certainly.
[16:55] <rickspencer3> I think the work is very very strong and will end up more or less a standard
[16:55] <rickspencer3> however, time will tell ... I'm keeping an open mind
[16:55] <davidbarth> ScottK: yes, almost, sorry for that
[16:55] <rickspencer3> but it's not a GNOME thing, or a KDE thing
[16:55] <rgreening> davidbarth: If you have some time, I can walk you through some screenies of notifications in 4.2. However, I think you need to have a system to develop on using 4.2 to get a real feel for it. I am sure there can be improvements and the KDE upstream would be willing to accept sensible patches if it aligns with their goeas and help make things better for th euser.
[16:56] <rickspencer3> davidbarth: didn't you guys just hire a quite talented KDE developer?
[16:56] <ScottK> I think it is.  I think they each attract users that interact with their systems in a certain way?
[16:56] <davidbarth> well, just to summarize (because i happen to have code drop to prepare for next week at the Berlin sprint... ;):
[16:56] <davidbarth> rickspencer3: yes, but we have to wait for his notice period :-(
[16:57] <rgreening> having a KDE guy on the team should help a lot.
[16:57] <rickspencer3> still good news for Kubuntu (to have a guy on the inside ;) )
[16:57] <davidbarth> i'm trying to hook the message indicator and remove the g* dependencies
[16:58] <ScottK> rickspencer3: To the extent the work integrates well with the KDE way of doing things I agree.
[16:58] <DaSkreech> \o/ Linux strengths
[16:58] <rgreening> davidbarth: \o/ no g deps :)
[16:58] <davidbarth> and then will move on with some kde patches if the first element is stable for the release
[16:58] <ScottK> DaSkreech: Agreed.
[16:59] <ScottK> davidbarth: The step in the middle is to get Kubuntu to agree to accept them.
[16:59]  * apachelogger is wondering why libgst-ruby depends on gtk
[16:59] <rgreening> davidbarth: I'd be willing to help test here. I am running Jaunty w/ kde4.2 and can test build any patches for you.
[17:00] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I think by "release" he means in a PPA or such
[17:00] <rgreening> in the interest of cooperation
[17:00]  * apachelogger is also wondering why webkam 0.3 uses rubyqt and rubygst but not phonon
[17:00] <DaSkreech> !info webkam
[17:00] <davidbarth> but i won't try to spoil the release with something bad or that is half way there
[17:01] <a|wen> do we have a link to the notification spec somewhere?
[17:01] <rgreening> o/ a|wen
[17:01] <ScottK> a|wen: There is no spec.  Look at Mark Shuttleworth's blog.
[17:01] <ScottK> That's all there is.
[17:01] <davidbarth> i really want to have something to bring to the kubuntu release, and avoid having just a gnome only contribution
[17:01]  * a|wen looks
[17:02] <davidbarth> just wish me good luck, because there isn't much time left ;)
[17:02] <rickspencer3> davidbarth: I think ScottK's point is that you may offer the code, but the Kubuntu community won't integrate it by default if they believe it is bad for their users
[17:02] <rickspencer3> (at least that is my read)
[17:02] <ScottK> Yes.
[17:02] <rgreening> +1
[17:02] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: kde-apps ... I don't feel like packaging it with gst though ... it is like stupid
[17:03] <ScottK> That doesn't mean we won't have an open mind about it, but don't take that aspect as a given.
[17:03] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: + I think if I touch gnome-ruby I will get even more launchpad spam mails about gnome branches I don't care a bit about :P
[17:03] <ScottK> If whatever it is isn't acceptable to upstream KDE, then we will get stuck maintaining it (in addition to it being suitable for our users).
[17:03] <DaSkreech> seele: Just occured to me can you make a plasmoid just for notifications?
[17:03] <davidbarth> rickspencer3: yeah, i'd still like to have some significant kde contribution, even if it is not enabled by default
[17:04] <rickspencer3> don't you carry other delta's between upstream and Kubuntu already?
[17:04] <DaSkreech> \o/ collaboration
[17:04] <ScottK> davidbarth: I'd also like to see a commitment from Dx to either maintain the changes or get them upstream.
[17:04] <rickspencer3> davidbarth: agreed
[17:04] <davidbarth> ScottK: i was in touch with aseigo at UDS, but i won't get back to him before i have some code that runs
[17:04] <seele> DaSkreech: you can make a plasmoid for anything
[17:04] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Certainly, but we try to minimize them.
[17:05] <ScottK> davidbarth: I assume you saw the blog post he did about it?
[17:05] <seele> rickspencer3: those delta's are probably because of me.  notably kickoff
[17:05] <rickspencer3> I propose that we let David see if he can get anything ready to even try, and then reconvene the discussion when he has some code
[17:05] <davidbarth> ScottK: what was discussed is to see that on the FD.o list with the galago developer, but then the MI thing has been swapped as the 1st priority (for good reasons)
[17:05] <davidbarth> ScottK: sure i did
[17:06] <ScottK> rickspencer3: That's fine.  I'm glad we are finally at least communicating.
[17:06] <davidbarth> rickspencer3: ;) code, that's the keyword!
[17:06] <ScottK> davidbarth: Then you know why I'm not particularly hopeful about this going upstream.
[17:06] <DaSkreech> Hmm I wonder what happens if you have three plasmoids for notifications
[17:06] <rickspencer3> perhaps we should let davidbarth have some time with his family now, as he will be traveling for the next two weeks :)
[17:07] <apachelogger> ScottK: kde is about the settings and the spec should support multiple frontend scenarios anyway
[17:07] <seele> davidbarth: how do you plan on implementing the MI in KDE? the UI should *really* be a plasmoid, and it would be a great contribution to upstream if you wrote a plasma service to go with it instead of extra out-of-libs code
[17:07] <ScottK> +1 to seele.
[17:07] <DaSkreech> +1
[17:07] <apachelogger> ScottK: like having some things clickable is purely frontend stuff ... the spec should IMHO support it, but if the frontend respects that is either up to the code or a setting
[17:07] <seele> davidbarth: also the service might already exist and you only need to do the UI
[17:08] <ScottK> apachelogger: That sounds reasonable.  As long as we are giving choice and not taking it away.
[17:08] <davidbarth> seele: i'm not that far unfortunately, i'm first trying to make KDE apps talk to the gnome indicator
[17:08] <ScottK> Also if we diverge from standard KDE behavior, I think it needs to be very well justified.
[17:09] <apachelogger> and maintained :P
[17:09] <ScottK> Yes
[17:09]  * apachelogger always has a thinger on the r and m when he comes across a patch that doesn't apply :P
[17:09] <apachelogger> finger even
[17:09] <seele> davidbarth: via dbus i hope? knotify is a bit smarter than gnome messages, you should get the event and data
[17:09]  * ScottK didn't want to know what apachelogger's thinger was about.
[17:09] <davidbarth> seele: for the KDE indicator, yes, jonathan told me to go this way
[17:10] <apachelogger> ScottK: :P
[17:10] <seele> davidbarth: ok good :)
[17:11] <rgreening> +1 seele. all great ideas to consider :)
[17:11]  * apachelogger is not sure knotify uses dbus though :P
[17:11] <davidbarth> seele: yes, everything is on the bus (MI and NS)
[17:11] <seele> apachelogger: it was, does it not anymore?
[17:12] <seele> apachelogger: is it a plasma service now?
[17:12] <apachelogger> seele: well, not as primary access node
[17:12] <apachelogger> that kind of stuff goes all through the appropriate libs AFAIK
[17:12] <apachelogger> using dbus is the hackish approach I think
[17:12] <apachelogger> certainly works though
[17:13] <davidbarth> apachelogger: the great thing is that it goes through a known library, but i'm not sure how old KDE apps are supported? those using the X atoms implementation or something?
[17:14] <davidbarth> apachelogger: can I email you with some questions about that later?
[17:15] <Riddell> apachelogger: qdbus org.kde.knotify /Notify
[17:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: would that be the common approach?
[17:15] <apachelogger> davidbarth: I am not very keen on knotify stuff ;-)
[17:15] <Riddell> apachelogger: dbus is how we do inter-process communication
[17:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: what if knotify is not registered?
[17:17] <Riddell> apachelogger: then it goes nowhere
[17:17] <Riddell> apachelogger: although I think it'll get started magically by dbus if it's installed
[17:18] <apachelogger> well, I am more thinking if it dies or the user deactivates it
[17:19] <ScottK> If the user deactivates it, that's on the user in any case.
[17:19] <apachelogger> nah, I was just wondering if dbus wouldn't be like erroring back at $callingapplication
[17:20] <ScottK> Right.
[17:20] <seele> kwwii: yo
[17:20] <seele> now the entire party is here
[17:21]  * davidbarth has to switch to another call
[17:22]  * ScottK sees http://rbitanga.blogspot.com/2009/01/multiple-actions-for-krunner-in-kde-42.html and wonders if we want some of that.
[17:24] <DaSkreech-pingme> I thought that Quicksand was the multiple actions thing
[17:25] <Riddell> jpds: are you trustworthy, caring and discreet?
[17:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: http://api.kde.org/4.1-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kdeui/html/classKNotification.html
[17:28] <apachelogger> ScottK: can you sum that up in one sentence?
[17:28]  * apachelogger is wondering why don't build ruby's phonon bindings
[17:29] <ScottK> apachelogger: Perfect.  I was looking for that exact page the other day.
[17:29] <ScottK> Of course it was the day that api.kde.org was down ....
[17:29] <apachelogger> google to the rescue
[17:29] <apachelogger> api's search appears to be broken
[17:29] <ScottK> Tried that.  Failed.
[17:30] <ScottK> I guess your Googlefu exceeds mine.
[17:30] <apachelogger> google like owns me
[17:31] <apachelogger> Sput: did I already tell you that a) that dropping out of channels on reconnect is annoying b) that it is even more annoying that quassel doesn't properly indicate this if there was foo going on before $reconnect?
[17:36] <jpds> Riddell: I suppose so...
[17:39] <seele> what a strange question out of context
[17:39]  * DaSkreech-pingme likes the caring part
[17:39] <DaSkreech-pingme> ScottK: Do you know Ryan's irc nick ?
[17:39] <ScottK> apachelogger: Speaking of quassel - I see it now knows about CA certs and can be told to recognize particular certs.  We ought not be arbitrarily over-writing certs anymore.
[17:40] <ScottK> DaSkreech-pingme: Do you mean ryanakca?
[17:40] <DaSkreech-pingme> Really?
[17:40] <DaSkreech-pingme> ryanakca: You be he ?
[17:41] <seele> DaSkreech-pingme: /whois is an extremely useful IRC tool
[17:42] <DaSkreech-pingme> seele: I can search for someone's real name with it?
[17:42] <seele> DaSkreech-pingme: try it and tell me what you think :P
[17:42] <DaSkreech-pingme> ScottK: I was talkingabout Bitanga btw
[17:42] <ScottK> DaSkreech-pingme: Then no.
[17:42] <DaSkreech-pingme> since you just refferend his blog
[17:43] <ScottK> DaSkreech-pingme: Nope.  Just read it on planet.kde.
[17:43] <ryanakca> DaSkreech-pingme: Hmm? Ryan is my first name... but I don't know if I'm the one you're looking for.
[17:43] <DaSkreech-pingme> ryanakca: you be not! :)
[17:44] <apachelogger> ScottK: vacation :P
[17:44] <ScottK> Then go on one ...
[17:44] <ScottK> ;-)
[17:49] <apachelogger> ScottK: I am :P
[17:49] <apachelogger> in a way
[17:50] <Riddell> DaSkreech-pingme: if you're on intrepid, it's known that digikam clashes with gwenview, even says so on kubuntu.org
[17:50] <Lure> Riddell: unless they use kde4.2 and digikam-experimental
[17:50] <Riddell> right
[17:51] <DaSkreech-pingme> oooh digikam-experimental
[17:52] <DaSkreech-pingme> Which repo is that in?
[17:52] <ScottK> digikam-experimental, I think.
[17:52] <Lure> DaSkreech-pingme: https://edge.launchpad.net/~digikam-experimental/+archive/ppa
[17:53] <DaSkreech-pingme> thanks
[17:57] <ScottK> Riddell: FYI, all the feedback I've gotten about the xorg-server without the Redhat/Compiz patch has been very positive.  Please don't let them put it back.
[17:58] <DaSkreech-pingme> It installs marble! Success!
[17:58] <Riddell> ScottK: I need to read over the bugs again to make sure I'm properly familiar with the arguments
[18:00] <ScottK> Riddell: OK.  Just don't fall for 'we got here first, so you have to change'.  Upstream has told us to drop the patch before.
[18:00] <Riddell> ScottK: which upstream?
[18:00] <ScottK> xorg.
[18:01] <ScottK> It's in debian/changelog.
[18:01] <ScottK> It was back in Feisty.
[18:01] <ScottK> Also highlighted in my blog post on the topic. http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/01/bug_254468_momentary_video_gar.html
[18:02] <DaSkreech-pingme> And crashes as soon as it starts \o/
[18:05] <a|wen> ScottK: why would anybody want to put it back?
[18:05] <ScottK> a
[18:06] <ScottK> a|wen: Because it helps compiz performance.
[18:06] <rgreening> which is suspect whether it really does or not
[18:07] <jjesse> does anyone have hard numbers on whether or not it actually improves?
[18:07] <jjesse> or is per video card?
[18:08] <a|wen> exactly my question
[18:08] <ScottK> It does.  If you read the bug in question that's clear (link at the end of my blog)
[18:08] <ScottK> It's a good hack, but it is a hack and they forgot to tell everyone else.
[18:10]  * jjesse didn't read the bug
[18:12] <a|wen> it just says that it improved performance notably with compiz in feisty (tested pre-release)
[18:13] <a|wen> i would think that both compiz, xorg and drivers probably have changed since then
[18:14]  * a|wen would think that both upstream refusing and the creators of the patch dropping it is strong arguments as well
[18:23] <DaSkreech-pingme> http://linuxshellaccount.blogspot.com/2009/01/unix-and-linux-humor-inspirational.html
[18:25] <Lure> ScottK: nice catch of x-org patch - this was annoying me whole intrepid, but I thought it is my dying laptop (graphics overheating all the time)
[18:25] <Lure> ScottK: and on jaunty it flies
[18:26] <ScottK> ;-)
[18:26] <ScottK> It seems to be helping people.
[18:26] <ryanakca> Which breadcrumb location is preferred? http://ryanak.ca/~ryan/kwiki1.png or http://ryanak.ca/~ryan/kwiki2.png ... Personally, I prefer the first one, but *shrug*.
[18:26] <Lure> ScottK: the only problem is that dropped patch did not solve overheating... :-(
[18:27] <jjesse> ryanakca: #1 for me
[18:27] <ScottK> Can't help there.
[18:27] <Lure> but good thing is I get new thinkpad soon ;-)
[18:29] <ryanakca> jjesse: thanks
[18:29] <astromme> #1 for me too
[18:29] <astromme> Lure: Mm, nice. What thinkpad?
[18:29] <Lure> astromme: x200s
[18:30] <astromme> I hate the video garbage. It forced me to get this close | | to switching to another distro
[18:30] <astromme> Lure: So nice, so nice. I'm using a X61 tablet here.
[18:31] <Lure> astromme: this will be first thinkpad for me, so I am looking forward (been on toshiba and 3 hp's before)
[18:31] <astromme> Lure: thinkwiki is priceless. I use it every time I have to reinstall.
[18:32] <Lure> astromme: that is one of the reason for the switch - thinkpad's have best linux community
[18:32]  * Lure had some problems with company's purchasing as it is hp oriented...
[18:32] <Lure> ;-)
[18:32] <a|wen> ryanakca: i would vote 1
[18:33] <astromme> And interestingly.... at my college we have ~50% macs. Of the remaining 50% I see way more ThinkPads than anything else.
[18:33] <astromme> that is for student laptops.
[18:34] <ScottK> Last year I was in a big engineering meeting at a $CUSTOMER site.
[18:34] <ryanakca> Number one it is, thanks all :)
[18:35] <ScottK> It was one VP, 20 or so engineers, and 2 consultants.
[18:35] <ScottK> Every one of the engineers had a Mac (and they had a choice).
[18:35] <ScottK> The VP had Windows and was taunted for it.
[18:35] <ScottK> I had Kubuntu.  The other consultant had Ubuntu.
[18:54] <rgreening> My office uses XP. I do my work from my own personal Laptop instead, and its running Jaunty. I avoid win when I can
[18:54] <a|wen> if i am to add a patch to kdeedu, should i add quilt as a build-dep (or is that implicit now)?
[18:55] <rgreening> ScottK: its funny that the VP used win and everyone else used something else
[18:55] <rgreening> a|wen: I believe apachelogger said to add explicitly for now.
[18:55] <ScottK> a|wen: Add it if it's not htere.
[18:55] <jjesse> rgreening: the vp probablly only has ever used windows and the engineers/consultants were more tech savy and have tried other thing
[18:55] <a|wen> ok, i'll do that ... thx both of you
[18:56] <rgreening> and thats why the economy is failing. the top is laiden with people unwilling to change
[18:56] <ScottK> In this case he clearly was uncomfortable because it clearly marked him as not one of the technical crowd.
[18:56] <rgreening> :)
[18:56] <ScottK> He's pretty sharp and in the company's field is very technical, just not on laptops I guess.
[18:57] <rgreening> Insteadof the thousands of jobs being cut, they should fire a few hundrad VP's and Execs all around. That'll save a lot and allow innovative thinkers to move up
[18:57] <rgreening> sell their private jets for gawd sakes
[18:57] <ScottK> Bottom line though is that MS has, IMO totally lost the mindshare of the people making ground level tech decisions in the tech industry.
[18:58] <rgreening> yep
[18:58] <seele> whoot, paper on floss usability was accepted to oss2009
[18:59] <DaSkreech-pingme> Whoot
[19:00] <jjesse> congrats seele
[19:00] <seele> unfortunately it was done outside an institution so i have to shell out $1000 for a flight to the conference :(
[19:04] <jjesse> that sucks
[19:07] <rgreening> gratz seele
[19:07] <rgreening> I'll donate some money :)
[19:08] <rgreening> seele: you should see if anyone else will help
[19:08] <jjesse> seele: what about frequetn flyer miles?
[19:17] <a|wen> any core-devs around to look at kdeedu? :) https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdeedu/ubuntu
[19:17] <a|wen> apachelogger: your marble.desktop ^^
[19:18] <apachelogger> a|wen: bzr add debian/patches && bzr ci && bzr push
[19:19] <a|wen> done
[19:20] <a|wen> ;)
[19:20] <a|wen> apachelogger: else i wouldn't bother you :P
[19:21]  * apachelogger doesn't upload anyway :P
[19:21] <apachelogger> can go in with $anotherfix or 4.2.1
[19:22] <a|wen> hehe, no problem
[19:24] <rgreening> Riddell: is /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kdesu supposed to be in the users path or app path?
[19:26]  * ryanakca wonders if there would be any use for an Adept ``X available updates'' plasmoid
[19:29] <jjesse> ryanakca: no reason for Adpet plasmoid as KPackagekit will be used in Jaunty
[19:30] <ryanakca> ah
[19:30] <ryanakca> s/Adept //g
[19:34] <astromme> Although, the plasmoid itself is still a good idea imho. Just make it with a dataengine and then have the dataengine change. Then it could be non-backend specific
[19:35] <astromme> The plasmoid itself would be really really simple. It would just connect to the dataengine and wait for the engine to send updates.
[19:35] <astromme> The engine would do the hooking into Adept (for now) and KPackageKit (for later)
[19:39] <a|wen> isn't there already a backend for those checks that shows when you log in to a vt ?
[19:46] <Lure> seele: quick question: should What's This texts start with "This is..." - I see this a lot, but then in the code they do not look that nice (repeating all over)
[19:52] <seele> Lure: i havent done too much work with Whats THis, that was ellen's thing..
[19:52] <seele> Lure: but it might be better to say "[this object] is.." instead of just "this is.."
[19:57] <ScottK> seele: BTW, I noticed that your http://usability.kde.org/information/people.php profile still points to an old blog.
[19:59] <Lure> seele: thanks, will see if I can find better, non-repetative way
[20:01] <ryanakca> apachelogger: Hi, I don't know the whole story, but I noticed that that you removed python-plasma-examples in kde-workspace 4.1.80-0ubuntu1... Even if they don't get compiled, couldn't they get installed (in source form) for documentation purposes, since I'm guessing that's what one of their purposes was? T'would save those trying to write plasmoids and who want examples of code from having to grab an SVN checkout of it...
[20:09] <a|wen> g'night everyone
[20:10] <ScottK> \o/ - Quassel MIR approved.
[20:12] <rgreening> nite
[20:12] <rgreening> kool
[20:14] <rgreening> Sime_: ping
[20:14] <ScottK> Riddell: I'll go ahead and adjust the seeds...
[20:22] <JontheEchidna> so how are we doing on a kde3-less alpha4?
[20:22] <ScottK> k3b and KNM are the holdouts.
[20:23] <ScottK> But at least we'll have an IRC client on CD now.
[20:23] <rgreening> K3B is available (Tonio_ has a build). I have been using it successfully.
[20:24] <rgreening> KNM is available but doesn't work fully for me. I can't get wep to work. wired is fine.
[20:25] <JontheEchidna> cool
[20:26] <JontheEchidna> plasmoid-network-manager would need a MIR
[20:26] <rgreening> We need a quassel tut page for Kubu users. Sounds like something for nixternal and jjesse to whip up (I need to convert to quassel)
[20:27] <ScottK> claydoh had a great blog post a couple of days ago
[20:27] <ScottK> Someone ought to steal that and shove it in the docs
[20:27] <rgreening> oh... then thats a good start point for a doc page.
[20:27] <rgreening> yep
[20:27] <rgreening> nixternal ^^^^
[20:34] <Sime_> hi
[20:39] <rgreening> Sime_: hey
[20:39] <rgreening> Sime_: wondering if pyQt 4.4.4 works with Qt.4.5.0
[20:40] <Sime_> rgreening: dunno. I should I guess.
[20:40] <rgreening> and same for the pyKDE
[20:40] <rgreening> Sime_: just wondering as the version of Qt bumped from 4.4.x to 4.5.x
[20:41] <Sime_> if PyQt works, then pykde should work too
[20:41] <rgreening> ok. I'll test build against Qt 4.5.0 and see if it compiles fine
[20:41] <rgreening> ty Sime_
[20:41] <rgreening> ScottK: ^^ re discusion earlier on Qt 4.5.0
[20:42] <rgreening> im out. later all
[20:42] <ScottK> rgreening: Then build Eric against that.  We've had problems there before.
[20:42] <rgreening> ok ScottK
[20:55] <smarter> maybe we should ask k3b's author if he plans to do a release before spring?
[21:00] <jjesse> quassel tut page?
[21:00] <jjesse> tutorial?
[21:36] <LaserJock> ScottK: what's up with kdeedu?
[21:36] <ScottK> a|wen fixed some desktop stuff.  It's in bzr.
[21:37] <LaserJock> I see
[21:45] <LaserJock> ScottK: in what bzr repo?
[21:45]  * ScottK consults his scrollback.
[21:45] <LaserJock> ScottK: in the branches I have I've only got my last entry, not even the ubuntu2 upload
[21:47] <ScottK> LaserJock: https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdeedu/ubuntu is where he said it was
[21:48] <LaserJock> umm, odd
[21:49] <LaserJock> ahh, I see
[21:49] <LaserJock> darn it
[21:49] <LaserJock> the branches are diverged because I couldn't push my commit
[21:50] <ScottK> Well I'm glad I pointed it out to you then ...
[21:54] <LaserJock> yeah, so when I was using gypsy to update it said it was all updated
[21:55] <LaserJock> but I missed a lot
[21:56] <ScottK> apachelogger: ^^^ Apparently the magic script needs help ...
[21:56] <JontheEchidna> isn't it gypsy pull?
[21:57]  * JontheEchidna has no clue what bzr update does
[21:57] <LaserJock> i don't either
[21:57] <LaserJock> but I don't have a gypsy pull
[21:57] <LaserJock> perhaps I'll just use bzr multi-pull ;-)
[22:06] <LaserJock> ok, well
[22:07] <LaserJock> I have no idea what to do with this branch
[22:07] <LaserJock> I guess I'll just start from scratch
[22:09] <ScottK> pull, pull, diff, patch, ci, push.
[22:09] <ScottK> Something like that.
[22:09] <LaserJock> well, it just got messed up because I can't commit
[22:10] <LaserJock> so my changes were apparently commited by somebody else
[22:10] <LaserJock> but slightly differently ;-)
[22:17] <LaserJock> ScottK: hmm, I'm actually not quite sure about this .desktop change in kdeedu
[22:18] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if it's common practice to separate .desktop from binaries in KDE packages, but generally I think it's best to keep the .desktop with the binary it's calling
[22:30] <ScottK> LaserJock: I'd discuss it with apachelogger then as he was the one pushing for it.
[22:30] <LaserJock> yeah, I mean it fixes the problem
[22:30] <LaserJock> but we can avoid patching  by just including the .desktop with the binary it runs
[22:30] <LaserJock> which makes logical sense to me anyway
[22:31]  * ScottK dunno.
[22:31]  * ScottK is about to leave for the DC KDE 4.2 release party.
[22:31] <LaserJock> awesome, have fun
[22:33]  * astromme is sad that he can't attend even though his is in nearby Philadelphia
[22:34] <astromme> *he is in.. bleh, typing
[22:35] <ScottK> If you left now, you'd get there before it was over ...
[22:35] <astromme> I'm a student without access to a car =/. I thought about it.
[22:35] <ScottK> Ah.  That's tough then.  I vaguely remember that condition (in Philadelphia too for that matter).
[22:36] <JontheEchidna> anybody still running intrepid that could test this SRU: bug 272399?
[22:36] <astromme> If you all ever have other events in the strip between NYC and DC, I'd love to come... I'd love even more to find some transportation =)
[22:39]  * ScottK consults whois and notes that astromme isn't actually IN Philadelphia.
[22:39]  * astromme nods, but I'm 20 minutes by train, and have a train at the foot of campus
[22:41] <astromme> ScottK: Are you in DC?
[22:41] <ScottK> West of Baltimore.
[22:41] <ScottK> The party is 45 minutes from my house an it's still north of DC.
[22:41] <astromme> ok
[22:42] <astromme> Bah, this kcachegrind output is confusing as heck. And it seems to all be in libraries. bah
[22:46] <ScottK> Well I just uploaded a new kubuntu-meta that adds quassel.
[22:46] <ScottK> Sput: ^^^ It's official, you're on the Kubuntu CD as of the next daily.
[22:46] <astromme> well, have a good time ScottK. Sometime I'll figure out a way to meet other kde peeps =)
[22:53] <ScottK> Unless Soyuz ate my upload.  It still hasn't appeared.
[22:58] <seele> ScottK: geez, if you are on your way out the door you might be there before me
[22:58] <seele> i'm not leaving until 615 to try an get there in 30 minutes
[22:59] <seele> ScottK: if you do get there before me, try to get that big table we had last week.. otherwise the back corner of the bar looked like a good place for 10-15 people too
[23:13]  * seele heads out to par-tay kde-style
[23:14] <ScottK> I haven't left yet.  You'll get there first.
[23:18] <rickspencer3> seele: ping
[23:22] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I think she's left already for the KDE 4.2 release party.  I can pass a message when I see her?
[23:22] <rickspencer3> ScottK: thanks for the offer
[23:22] <rickspencer3> yeah, I guess it's after 6 on a Friday there
[23:23] <rickspencer3> I just started a usability related wiki page, and thought she might be interested
[23:23] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Usability/DataCrossWalkMethod
[23:23] <rickspencer3> I'll catch her next week prolly
[23:23] <rickspencer3> see you all around!