| nothingman | hi, all | 01:33 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | hi nothingman | 01:34 |
| nothingman | what's new? | 01:37 |
| LaserJock | not a ton | 01:40 |
| xmedex | hello...someone could help me | 01:52 |
| LaserJock | xmedex: what do you need? | 02:24 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: pong (hyper late one) | 02:24 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: np, just wanted to catch up a bit | 02:25 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: you available for a meeting sometime this week? | 02:25 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: probably yes | 02:27 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: what's a good time of day for you? | 02:29 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: how's LTSP going? | 02:29 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: anytime from 8am-12am and 1pm-5pm EST should be fine | 02:30 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: LTSP is going fine, I just uploaded a new package a few hours ago and have a few things to implement before FF but that still leaves me plenty of time | 02:30 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: you been able to do many test installs? | 02:31 |
| stgraber | most features are already there, I just need to implement a better way of adding Ubuntu-specific stuff to it (like hardware-specific workarounds) | 02:31 |
| stgraber | I'm actually testing ltsp-build-client to make sure it behaves as it should :) then I have to make sure it works on the CD as well (it failed for alpha-4 ...) | 02:32 |
| stgraber | I also uploaded a new italc to my PPA for testing, it should fix most issues I heard about (mainly for LTSP users) | 02:33 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: ok, cool | 02:33 |
| stgraber | I'll test it next week and if there is no regression upload it | 02:34 |
| stgraber | one thing I still have to do is to update the default themes in ldm but not having the new artwork for ubuntu doesn't help :) | 02:36 |
| stgraber | though we have a different freeze for that IIRC | 02:37 |
| LaserJock | rright | 02:38 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: have you had a chance to look at how LTSP is doing on Hardy lately? | 02:39 |
| LaserJock | vorian: heah | 02:44 |
| vorian | HI! | 02:44 |
| vorian | LaserJock: I'm working on sponsoring the sugar update... and suddenly realized of all the channels i'm on, this was not one :) | 02:45 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: not really, scotty wanted to look at what would need to be fixed in hardy. | 02:46 |
| LaserJock | stgraber: k, np | 02:46 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: I don't deploy Hardy anymore and the hardy we deployed was some kind of fork ... | 02:46 |
| LaserJock | vorian: ah, cool | 02:47 |
| stgraber | LaserJock: the main issue I guess is that since Hardy a very large part of LTSP was changed making it hard to backport a fix to Hardy (it'd already be hard for Intrepid) | 02:47 |
| stgraber | my customers are actually running Jaunty's LTSP backported on Intrepid :) | 02:47 |
| LaserJock | vorian: thanks for those uploads | 03:01 |
| vorian | LaserJock: no problem, these packages are very well made :) | 03:02 |
| LaserJock | vorian: I'm sure morgs will be glad to hear that | 03:08 |
| vorian | :) | 03:08 |
| vorian | hrm | 03:10 |
| vorian | archives down? | 03:10 |
| vorian | seems that way | 03:11 |
| stgraber | yeah | 03:15 |
| stgraber | I uploaded to it several hours ago and it's still pending | 03:15 |
| stgraber | built fine but never reached the archive | 03:15 |
| vorian | my pbuilder is getting 404's when it tries to get dependancies | 03:19 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 03:19 |
| LaserJock | I built something just a minute or two ago | 03:20 |
| stgraber | yeah, you get confirmation from LP, then it builds but never appears in the archive :) LTSP is marked as pending (as in pending upload to archive.ubuntu.com) for a few hours now | 03:21 |
| stgraber | (but is built for all archs so seems like it's the cron job doing the copy from LP to archive that's failing) | 03:21 |
| * vorian tries another mirror | 03:24 | |
| stgraber | I'm using archive.ubuntu.com so it's supposed to be up to date :) | 03:24 |
| stgraber | and LP marks it as PENDING so it's not a mirroring issue, otherwise it'd be PUBLISHED and missing on the mirrors | 03:25 |
| * LaserJock kicks edubuntu-meta around a few times | 03:27 | |
| LaserJock | stupid thing | 03:27 |
| LaserJock | take that dpkg!! | 03:54 |
| LaserJock | edubuntu-meta away | 04:00 |
| vorian | all sugar packages away! | 04:02 |
| vorian | morgs: awesome job! | 04:02 |
| alkisg | LaserJock: about all the (gcompris-sound-cs) dependencies, can't gcompris recommend a package based on the system language? E.g. gcompris-sound-el isn't even on the list, and all other sounds are useless for e.g. greek schools... | 06:00 |
| LaserJock | we don't have any mechanism to make that work right now | 06:02 |
| alkisg | LaserJock: ok, I thought it would be simple (like gnome-language-pack-*)... :) | 06:03 |
| LaserJock | the only system I know for that is in ubiquity, which doesn't help us out | 06:03 |
| LaserJock | well, if the sounds were in a lang-pack then yes | 06:03 |
| LaserJock | but they're not and I can't imagine that would ever happen | 06:03 |
| LaserJock | alkisg: I really can't think of any good system off hand to make it better | 06:04 |
| alkisg | I don't know almost anything about packaging, so don't mind me... :) | 06:05 |
| LaserJock | I'm not sure if the language selector could be used, perhaps though | 06:05 |
| alkisg | I just thought language-based selection of packages would be something that the .deb packaging system would offer | 06:05 |
| LaserJock | nope, that's all stuff we have to add on top | 06:05 |
| LaserJock | the packaging system itself just provides for hard-coded dependencies, there's nothing dynamic about it | 06:07 |
| alkisg | So when I install openoffice, how does e.g. openoffice.org-l10n-el get installed? | 06:07 |
| alkisg | That's ubiquity magic? | 06:07 |
| LaserJock | yep | 06:08 |
| alkisg | Ah, I see the problem... :( | 06:08 |
| alkisg | .debs should support at least a <system-lang> macro. E.g. gcompris recommends gcompris-sound-<system-lang|en> | 06:10 |
| LaserJock | well, I'm not sure if it's ubiquity or the language selector for OO.o | 06:10 |
| LaserJock | language-support-translations-el depends on openoffice.org-l10n-el | 06:10 |
| alkisg | I don't have language-support-translations-el installed | 06:11 |
| LaserJock | k | 06:11 |
| LaserJock | then perhaps that's ubiquity | 06:11 |
| alkisg | (but I think I should, thanks! :)) | 06:11 |
| LaserJock | it used to be we didn't even have the flexibility of Recommends | 06:13 |
| LaserJock | we got that around Intrepid I think | 06:13 |
| LaserJock | it used to be only packages in Depends where installed, and if one of them was uninstalled it uninstalled everything | 06:14 |
| === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg | ||
| sbalneav | Morning all | 15:08 |
| === hfsdo_ is now known as hfsdo | ||
| === ogra_ is now known as ogra | ||
| nubae | hmmm so my connection dropped yesteday and just got back from fossdem... | 16:34 |
| nubae | ogra u around? | 16:34 |
| alkisg | hey nubae - get up your bot, we need logs! :P :D | 16:37 |
| alkisg | (welcome back)! | 16:37 |
| ogra | alkisg, ubuntulog doesnt suffice ? | 16:52 |
| ogra | nubae, with half an eye ... | 16:52 |
| alkisg | ogra: sorry, wrong channel, I was talking about the #ltsp logs :) | 16:53 |
| ogra | :) | 16:53 |
| nubae | ogra.... hey there | 16:53 |
| nubae | so u just wanted to know ure objections to moving to kde as the edubuntu platform] | 16:54 |
| nubae | obviously not entirely, but juts to get an inflflux of developers | 16:54 |
| ogra | my objections are that edubuntu shouldnt care about the desktop ... its an addon | 16:55 |
| nubae | we already use the deps from kde-edu and lets be honest they are the best ones and work the way they are supposed to] | 16:55 |
| ogra | i dont doubt that | 16:55 |
| nubae | an addon without the most important aspect... it wont addon to kde will it? | 16:56 |
| ogra | but edubuntu should work with icewm as well as with gnome and kde by including the best edu apps possible, regardless what platform is underneatj | 16:56 |
| ogra | thats why we put about six months of effort into decoupling it from the desktop | 16:56 |
| ogra | sure it will addon to kde | 16:56 |
| ogra | laser has split it into two parts though (a kde and a gnome part( which i wouldnt agree with either ... | 16:57 |
| nubae | hmmm but what about integration of aps like the one I mentioned using plasmoids as teacher tools | 16:57 |
| ogra | but thats up to you guys anyway | 16:57 |
| ogra | i just am not happy to hear someone say edubuntu is kde now or edubuntu is gnome only | 16:58 |
| ogra | since that means all my work i put into removing that desktop binding was moot | 16:58 |
| ogra | the idea was to have it just a s the best set of edu apps possible with the option to install it as metapackage on any given desktop you like | 16:59 |
| LaserJock | morning all | 17:00 |
| ogra | reverting that to deeply bind it into any desktop again imho totally misses the point | 17:00 |
| ogra | and will just re-fuel the desktop wars again | 17:00 |
| ogra | hey LaserJock | 17:00 |
| nubae | hey LaserJock | 17:02 |
| nubae | was just talking about something that involves u kinda | 17:02 |
| nubae | yesterday and the day before I was in fossdem | 17:02 |
| nubae | and spoke for a couple hours to the kde guys | 17:02 |
| nubae | who expressed a greast interest into getting involved in edubuntu | 17:03 |
| LaserJock | awesome | 17:03 |
| nubae | ogra was just saying that it kinda defeats the purpose, bieng htat it shold be platform independent | 17:03 |
| ogra | no | 17:03 |
| ogra | thats not what i said, i appreciate kde devs (especially kdeedu) getting involved | 17:04 |
| nubae | but i was shown some exsiting apps, based on plasmoids that totally blew my mind... with reallty a couple of lines of code they made a parley plasmoid that switched every 10 seconds with words/sentences based on languages u choose | 17:05 |
| nubae | that kinda shit is exactly what children need | 17:05 |
| LaserJock | nubae: right | 17:05 |
| nubae | the kde-edu team is massive | 17:05 |
| LaserJock | yep | 17:05 |
| ogra | wht i said was that we made a lot of effort to make edubuntu an addon thats desktop independent and that i strongly oppose to declare is as a kde or gnome solution but that it should be usable on *any* kind of desktop and sould be promoted like that | 17:05 |
| nubae | they wanna get involved | 17:05 |
| nubae | Ive been given the details on who to get involved with at the kde level team | 17:06 |
| nubae | and get them to be a part of edubuntu | 17:06 |
| LaserJock | ogra: I agree, however there are some complications to that | 17:06 |
| nubae | the question is, do we all agree? | 17:06 |
| ogra | i.e. if a school has an underpowered ltsp server they should be able to use edubuntu on top of icewm ltsp desktops | 17:06 |
| ogra | without having to think about it being kde, gnome whatever | 17:06 |
| LaserJock | our primary focus should *always* be Education | 17:06 |
| nubae | ogra but it doesnt work that way... take a loook at sugar | 17:07 |
| ogra | nubae, as i said, i dont have to say anyting anymore in edubuntu land its up to you all | 17:07 |
| nubae | it does stuff dependent on what sugar deps are required | 17:07 |
| LaserJock | ogra: except you're the Edubuntu godfather :-) | 17:07 |
| nubae | the other thing is.... kde 4.2 soesnt with with ltsp | 17:07 |
| LaserJock | ogra: you have more Edubuntu experience than all of us combined I think | 17:08 |
| nubae | it severlty limits our deployments | 17:08 |
| ogra | LaserJock, but i dont do anything anymore ... i'm happy to step back ... just stating my opinion | 17:08 |
| LaserJock | ogra: sure, I'm just saying it's a very valued opinion | 17:08 |
| nubae | but u are involved in many aspects | 17:08 |
| nubae | we need your leadership in some ways, and your experience | 17:08 |
| ogra | LaserJock, i'm aware of that :) | 17:08 |
| LaserJock | ok, so let me step back for a sec | 17:08 |
| LaserJock | Edubuntu is about education, simple enough | 17:09 |
| ogra | nubae, so what about sugar ... the edubuntu-sugar metapackage would pull in all deps needed | 17:09 |
| nubae | we are talking about an addoncc | 17:09 |
| nubae | addoncd | 17:09 |
| ogra | and ? | 17:09 |
| LaserJock | one of the issues that we have is that it's rather difficult to create a totally DE-neutral educational layer | 17:09 |
| nubae | what happens when we combine sugar, kde and gnome | 17:09 |
| ogra | if you seed the metapackage germinate will dtrt | 17:09 |
| nubae | ]are we then talking about a addon dvd? | 17:09 |
| LaserJock | nubae: no | 17:10 |
| LaserJock | adding sugar to what we already have would be easy | 17:10 |
| LaserJock | the problem is that the CD relys on Ubuntu | 17:10 |
| LaserJock | hence the "gnome dependency" | 17:10 |
| nubae | but not kde and gnome with the entire desktop | 17:10 |
| nubae | which we need for the plasmoids | 17:10 |
| LaserJock | no | 17:10 |
| LaserJock | ok | 17:11 |
| LaserJock | so this is why we have edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde, IMO | 17:11 |
| nubae | right! | 17:11 |
| LaserJock | the eductional apps are the same | 17:11 |
| LaserJock | but we fill in the cracks to make them work with the underlying DE | 17:11 |
| ogra | right | 17:11 |
| LaserJock | however, the *educational* components should basically be the same no matter what | 17:12 |
| nubae | sounds complicated | 17:12 |
| LaserJock | it is | 17:12 |
| nubae | but u are more devs than I | 17:12 |
| LaserJock | for instance, what about Xubuntu?! | 17:12 |
| nubae | I am more a marketing guy | 17:12 |
| * ogra would propose to talk to cjwatson for a better solution that makes it reasier ;) | 17:12 | |
| ogra | *easier | 17:12 |
| nubae | \well the biggest flaw is ltsp not working in kde | 17:12 |
| ogra | which is totally unrelated to edubuntu | 17:12 |
| nubae | we lost 68 millions kids cause if that in brazil | 17:12 |
| ogra | sure sure | 17:13 |
| LaserJock | nubae: we did? | 17:13 |
| ogra | where do these numbers come from *g* | 17:13 |
| nubae | the kde guys | 17:13 |
| ogra | heh | 17:13 |
| nubae | they reiterated it yesterday | 17:13 |
| LaserJock | I don't think *we* lost 68 million kids | 17:13 |
| nubae | the cant alll be making up the same numbers | 17:13 |
| LaserJock | Linux *gained* 68 million kids, that's great | 17:13 |
| nubae | look, ltsp is totally related to eduaction | 17:13 |
| nubae | its the biggest market | 17:14 |
| nubae | we all know this | 17:14 |
| LaserJock | it's one part of it | 17:14 |
| * ogra wouldnt want to have to care for 68mio kids ... the daily amount of milk alone ... | 17:14 | |
| ogra | oh my | 17:14 |
| nubae | the biggest by far | 17:14 |
| LaserJock | I see a lot of people who are talking about moving away to LTSP | 17:14 |
| LaserJock | to netbooks | 17:14 |
| ogra | right | 17:14 |
| nubae | ]well we can combine that | 17:14 |
| ogra | ltsp's usecase is far bigger than edu | 17:14 |
| LaserJock | and edu's is far bigger than ltsp | 17:14 |
| nubae | and in fact i know devs working on it like nomad | 17:14 |
| ogra | right | 17:14 |
| LaserJock | but there is a good intersection | 17:14 |
| ogra | right as well | 17:15 |
| alkisg | ...also, if students get to know linux from their educational years, it'll be easier for them to use linux later on. Education is critical... | 17:15 |
| LaserJock | so, that's why I have LTSP as an area of focus in our strategy document | 17:15 |
| nubae | anyway msut eat... ill get back in conversation soonl... | 17:15 |
| LaserJock | it's not *everything* but it's a common use case we need to care about at some level | 17:15 |
| LaserJock | right now though, the focus should be on getting what we *do* have ready | 17:16 |
| ogra | sure | 17:16 |
| ogra | make KDE work with ltsp then | 17:16 |
| LaserJock | right | 17:16 |
| ogra | its not ltsp's fault | 17:16 |
| LaserJock | I told aseigo that and he said he'd look into it | 17:16 |
| ogra | its just that nobody ever cared to fix the apps | 17:16 |
| LaserJock | so, if KDE people want to help out, awesome | 17:16 |
| ogra | right | 17:16 |
| LaserJock | there's always a home for edu devs here :-) | 17:16 |
| ogra | no objection here | 17:16 |
| LaserJock | alternatively, we're not just going to hop completely on the KDE boat either | 17:17 |
| ogra | but nobae is talking about "edubuntu is no KDE only, hooray" ... thats what i was objecting | 17:17 |
| LaserJock | sure | 17:17 |
| ogra | *now | 17:17 |
| LaserJock | I think we're now "equal oppritunity" :-) | 17:17 |
| ogra | edubuntu needs to be xubuntu, gnome, icewm, kde, lxde, younameit | 17:18 |
| LaserJock | basically how I see it is this | 17:18 |
| ogra | its surely not there yet with the desktop deps ... but it cam a long way already | 17:18 |
| ogra | *came | 17:18 |
| LaserJock | 1) we create educational app metapackage/bundles | 17:18 |
| LaserJock | those can be install on any *buntu | 17:19 |
| LaserJock | 2) edubuntu-desktop* add in special DE-specific extras for the "big guys" to make the Ubuntu/Kubuntu experience better | 17:19 |
| LaserJock | the problem is really only on the .iso as far as I can see | 17:20 |
| LaserJock | as we have to essentially pick a .iso to base off of | 17:20 |
| ogra | and thats something cjwatson can solve | 17:20 |
| LaserJock | right | 17:20 |
| LaserJock | so if KDE people want to come in and make edubuntu-desktop-kde better and make KDE Edu better, awesome | 17:21 |
| LaserJock | if GNOME people want to make edubuntu-desktop and sabayon, etc. better, awesome | 17:21 |
| ogra | right | 17:21 |
| LaserJock | but we are *education*, wherever that is | 17:21 |
| LaserJock | right now KDE has some *very* powerful stuff in plasma, etc. | 17:22 |
| ogra | apparently | 17:23 |
| LaserJock | and we can always encourage them in that to make KDE better for education | 17:23 |
| * ogra has to belive the hype apparently :) | 17:23 | |
| LaserJock | it's pretty sweet | 17:23 |
| LaserJock | but it seems heavy to me | 17:23 |
| LaserJock | not something I'd want to run on loaded LTSP servers, for instance | 17:23 |
| ogra | well, the whole of KDE4 is still far from being shaken out properly imho | 17:24 |
| ogra | at least what i have seen so far | 17:24 |
| LaserJock | KDE 4.2 is significanly better, almost usable even ;-) | 17:24 |
| ogra | it definately needs to lose a lot of weight ... gnome 2.x took several years to get to that point | 17:25 |
| ogra | i wouldnt assume KDE to be massively faster | 17:25 |
| LaserJock | apparently it runs on netbooks OK | 17:25 |
| LaserJock | but I haven't tried it | 17:25 |
| LaserJock | ogra: somebody has filed a bug requesting the removal of debian-edu from Ubuntu | 18:37 |
| LaserJock | ogra: do you have any thoughts on what Debian would think of that? | 18:38 |
| ogra | nothing i guess ... it breaks anyway on ubuntu | 18:38 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 18:38 |
| LaserJock | apparently morgs was having problems with their sugar package | 18:39 |
| ogra | its totally debian centric and does a lot nonstd stuff afauk | 18:39 |
| ogra | *afaik | 18:39 |
| LaserJock | I think I'll go ahead and ack it, it's so confusing as is to have education-* | 18:39 |
| ogra | like editing conffiles from postinst etc ... unless they fixed that | 18:39 |
| LaserJock | I just don't want Debian thinking we're being mean | 18:40 |
| LaserJock | :-) | 18:40 |
| ogra | do you know who filed it ? | 18:40 |
| LaserJock | it was filed by lfaraone in response to a bug from morgs | 18:41 |
| LaserJock | and slangasek asked for an ack | 18:41 |
| LaserJock | it in Universe so technically MOTU territory | 18:41 |
| LaserJock | but I think it's more an issue with Edubuntu | 18:41 |
| LaserJock | since I plan on having a set of educational metapackage for Universe the usefulness of the debian-edu ones is much less | 18:42 |
| LaserJock | especially when we have transitions | 18:42 |
| LaserJock | for instance, I believe their still using KDE3 stuff so some of the packages are uninstallable | 18:43 |
| ogra | yeah | 18:44 |
| ogra | just drop it | 18:44 |
| LaserJock | yikes, Debian has fixed a *ton* of moodle bugs | 18:46 |
| LaserJock | and there's new maintainers | 18:46 |
| ogra | hrm | 18:48 |
| ogra | moodle is my hell of pain ... | 18:48 |
| ogra | i still havent found the time to merge it | 18:48 |
| ogra | and even keescook is hunting me down for it already | 18:49 |
| ogra | it being a security risk in jaunty ... | 18:49 |
| LaserJock | ogra: I'll have a look | 18:50 |
| LaserJock | we've gotten a few upgrade/uninstallable bugs from it as well | 18:50 |
| * ogra hugs LaserJock | 18:50 | |
| LaserJock | server stuff isn't my best area, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some more ;-) | 18:51 |
| LaserJock | it might be a good chance to use the ~edubuntu-dev PPA | 18:52 |
| LaserJock | since I think it might need some testing before we just shove it in | 18:53 |
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