/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/02/09/#edubuntu.txt

nothingmanhi, all01:33
LaserJockhi nothingman01:34
nothingmanwhat's new?01:37
LaserJocknot a ton01:40
xmedexhello...someone could help me01:52
LaserJockxmedex: what do you need?02:24
stgraberLaserJock: pong (hyper late one)02:24
LaserJockstgraber: np, just wanted to catch up a bit02:25
LaserJockstgraber: you available for a meeting sometime this week?02:25
stgraberLaserJock: probably yes02:27
LaserJockstgraber: what's a good time of day for you?02:29
LaserJockstgraber: how's LTSP going?02:29
stgraberLaserJock: anytime from 8am-12am and 1pm-5pm EST should be fine02:30
stgraberLaserJock: LTSP is going fine, I just uploaded a new package a few hours ago and have a few things to implement before FF but that still leaves me plenty of time02:30
LaserJockstgraber: you been able to do many test installs?02:31
stgrabermost features are already there, I just need to implement a better way of adding Ubuntu-specific stuff to it (like hardware-specific workarounds)02:31
stgraberI'm actually testing ltsp-build-client to make sure it behaves as it should :) then I have to make sure it works on the CD as well (it failed for alpha-4 ...)02:32
stgraberI also uploaded a new italc to my PPA for testing, it should fix most issues I heard about (mainly for LTSP users)02:33
LaserJockstgraber: ok, cool02:33
stgraberI'll test it next week and if there is no regression upload it02:34
stgraberone thing I still have to do is to update the default themes in ldm but not having the new artwork for ubuntu doesn't help :)02:36
stgraberthough we have a different freeze for that IIRC02:37
LaserJockrright02:38
LaserJockstgraber: have you had a chance to look at how LTSP is doing on Hardy lately?02:39
LaserJockvorian: heah02:44
vorianHI!02:44
vorianLaserJock: I'm working on sponsoring the sugar update... and suddenly realized of all the channels i'm on, this was not one :)02:45
stgraberLaserJock: not really, scotty wanted to look at what would need to be fixed in hardy.02:46
LaserJockstgraber: k, np02:46
stgraberLaserJock: I don't deploy Hardy anymore and the hardy we deployed was some kind of fork ...02:46
LaserJockvorian: ah, cool02:47
stgraberLaserJock: the main issue I guess is that since Hardy a very large part of LTSP was changed making it hard to backport a fix to Hardy (it'd already be hard for Intrepid)02:47
stgrabermy customers are actually running Jaunty's LTSP backported on Intrepid :)02:47
LaserJockvorian: thanks for those uploads03:01
vorianLaserJock: no problem, these packages are very well made :)03:02
LaserJockvorian: I'm sure morgs will be glad to hear that03:08
vorian:)03:08
vorianhrm03:10
vorianarchives down?03:10
vorianseems that way03:11
stgraberyeah03:15
stgraberI uploaded to it several hours ago and it's still pending03:15
stgraberbuilt fine but never reached the archive03:15
vorianmy pbuilder is getting 404's when it tries to get dependancies03:19
LaserJockhmm03:19
LaserJockI built something just a minute or two ago03:20
stgraberyeah, you get confirmation from LP, then it builds but never appears in the archive :) LTSP is marked as pending (as in pending upload to archive.ubuntu.com) for a few hours now03:21
stgraber(but is built for all archs so seems like it's the cron job doing the copy from LP to archive that's failing)03:21
* vorian tries another mirror03:24
stgraberI'm using archive.ubuntu.com so it's supposed to be up to date :)03:24
stgraberand LP marks it as PENDING so it's not a mirroring issue, otherwise it'd be PUBLISHED and missing on the mirrors03:25
* LaserJock kicks edubuntu-meta around a few times03:27
LaserJockstupid thing03:27
LaserJocktake that dpkg!!03:54
LaserJockedubuntu-meta away04:00
vorianall sugar packages away!04:02
vorianmorgs: awesome job!04:02
alkisgLaserJock: about all the (gcompris-sound-cs) dependencies, can't gcompris recommend a package based on the system language? E.g. gcompris-sound-el isn't even on the list, and all other sounds are useless for e.g. greek schools...06:00
LaserJockwe don't have any mechanism to make that work right now06:02
alkisgLaserJock: ok, I thought it would be simple (like gnome-language-pack-*)... :)06:03
LaserJockthe only system I know for that is in ubiquity, which doesn't help us out06:03
LaserJockwell, if the sounds were in a lang-pack then yes06:03
LaserJockbut they're not and I can't imagine that would ever happen06:03
LaserJockalkisg: I really can't think of any good system off hand to make it better06:04
alkisgI don't know almost anything about packaging, so don't mind me... :)06:05
LaserJockI'm not sure if the language selector could be used, perhaps though06:05
alkisgI just thought language-based selection of packages would be something that the .deb packaging system would offer06:05
LaserJocknope, that's all stuff we have to add on top06:05
LaserJockthe packaging system itself just provides for hard-coded dependencies, there's nothing dynamic about it06:07
alkisgSo when I install openoffice, how does e.g. openoffice.org-l10n-el get installed?06:07
alkisgThat's ubiquity magic?06:07
LaserJockyep06:08
alkisgAh, I see the problem... :(06:08
alkisg.debs should support at least a <system-lang> macro. E.g. gcompris recommends gcompris-sound-<system-lang|en>06:10
LaserJockwell, I'm not sure if it's ubiquity or the language selector for OO.o06:10
LaserJocklanguage-support-translations-el depends on openoffice.org-l10n-el06:10
alkisgI don't have language-support-translations-el installed06:11
LaserJockk06:11
LaserJockthen perhaps that's ubiquity06:11
alkisg(but I think I should, thanks! :))06:11
LaserJockit used to be we didn't even have the flexibility of Recommends06:13
LaserJockwe got that around Intrepid I think06:13
LaserJockit used to be only packages in Depends where installed, and if one of them was uninstalled it uninstalled everything06:14
=== alkisg1 is now known as alkisg
sbalneavMorning all15:08
=== hfsdo_ is now known as hfsdo
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
nubaehmmm so my connection dropped yesteday and just got back from fossdem...16:34
nubaeogra u around?16:34
alkisghey nubae - get up your bot, we need logs! :P :D16:37
alkisg(welcome back)!16:37
ograalkisg, ubuntulog doesnt suffice ?16:52
ogranubae, with half an eye ...16:52
alkisgogra: sorry, wrong channel, I was talking about the #ltsp logs :)16:53
ogra:)16:53
nubaeogra.... hey there16:53
nubaeso u just wanted to know ure objections to moving to kde as the edubuntu platform]16:54
nubaeobviously not entirely, but juts to get an inflflux of developers16:54
ogramy objections are that edubuntu shouldnt care about the desktop ... its an addon16:55
nubaewe already use the deps from kde-edu and lets be honest they are the best ones and work the way they are supposed to]16:55
ograi dont doubt that16:55
nubaean addon without the most important aspect... it wont addon to kde will it?16:56
ograbut edubuntu should work with icewm as well as with gnome and kde by including the best edu apps possible, regardless what platform is underneatj16:56
ograthats why we put about six months of effort into decoupling it from the desktop16:56
ograsure it will addon to kde16:56
ogralaser has split it into two parts though (a kde and a gnome part( which i wouldnt agree with either ...16:57
nubaehmmm but what about integration of aps like the one I mentioned using plasmoids as teacher tools16:57
ograbut thats up to you guys anyway16:57
ograi just am not happy to hear someone say edubuntu is kde now or edubuntu is gnome only16:58
ograsince that means all my work i put into removing that desktop binding was moot16:58
ograthe idea was to have it just a s the best set of edu apps possible with the option to install it as metapackage on any given desktop you like16:59
LaserJockmorning all17:00
ograreverting that to deeply bind it into any desktop again imho totally misses the point17:00
ograand will just re-fuel the desktop wars again17:00
ograhey LaserJock17:00
nubaehey LaserJock17:02
nubaewas just talking about something that involves u kinda17:02
nubaeyesterday and the day before I was in fossdem17:02
nubaeand spoke for a couple hours to the kde guys17:02
nubaewho expressed a greast interest into getting involved in edubuntu17:03
LaserJockawesome17:03
nubaeogra was just saying that it kinda defeats the purpose, bieng htat it shold be platform independent17:03
ograno17:03
ograthats not what i said, i appreciate kde devs (especially kdeedu) getting involved17:04
nubaebut i was shown some exsiting apps, based on plasmoids that totally blew my mind... with reallty a couple of lines of code they made a parley plasmoid that switched every 10 seconds with words/sentences based on languages u choose17:05
nubaethat kinda shit is exactly what children need17:05
LaserJocknubae: right17:05
nubaethe kde-edu team is massive17:05
LaserJockyep17:05
ograwht i said was that we made a lot of effort to make edubuntu an addon thats desktop independent and that i strongly oppose to declare is as a kde or gnome solution but that it should be usable on *any* kind of desktop and sould be promoted like that17:05
nubaethey wanna get involved17:05
nubaeIve been given the details on who to get involved with at the kde level team17:06
nubaeand get them to be a part of edubuntu17:06
LaserJockogra: I agree, however there are some complications to that17:06
nubaethe question is, do we all agree?17:06
ograi.e. if a school has an underpowered ltsp server they should be able to use edubuntu on top of icewm ltsp desktops17:06
ograwithout having to think about it being kde, gnome whatever17:06
LaserJockour primary focus should *always* be Education17:06
nubaeogra but it doesnt work that way... take a loook at sugar17:07
ogranubae, as i said, i dont have to say anyting anymore in edubuntu land its up to you all17:07
nubaeit does stuff dependent on what sugar deps are required17:07
LaserJockogra: except you're the Edubuntu godfather :-)17:07
nubaethe other thing is.... kde 4.2 soesnt with with ltsp17:07
LaserJockogra: you have more Edubuntu experience than all of us combined I think17:08
nubaeit severlty limits our deployments17:08
ograLaserJock, but i dont do anything anymore ... i'm happy to step back ... just stating my opinion17:08
LaserJockogra: sure, I'm just saying it's a very valued opinion17:08
nubaebut u are involved in many aspects17:08
nubaewe need your leadership in some ways, and your experience17:08
ograLaserJock, i'm aware of that :)17:08
LaserJockok, so let me step back for a sec17:08
LaserJockEdubuntu is about education, simple enough17:09
ogranubae, so what about sugar ... the edubuntu-sugar metapackage would pull in all deps needed17:09
nubaewe are talking about an addoncc17:09
nubaeaddoncd17:09
ograand ?17:09
LaserJockone of the issues that we have is that it's rather difficult to create a totally DE-neutral educational layer17:09
nubaewhat happens when we combine sugar, kde and gnome17:09
ograif you seed the metapackage germinate will dtrt17:09
nubae]are we then talking about a addon dvd?17:09
LaserJocknubae: no17:10
LaserJockadding sugar to what we already have would be easy17:10
LaserJockthe problem is that the CD relys on Ubuntu17:10
LaserJockhence the "gnome dependency"17:10
nubaebut not kde and gnome with the entire desktop17:10
nubaewhich we need for the plasmoids17:10
LaserJockno17:10
LaserJockok17:11
LaserJockso this is why we have edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde, IMO17:11
nubaeright!17:11
LaserJockthe eductional apps are the same17:11
LaserJockbut we fill in the cracks to make them work with the underlying DE17:11
ograright17:11
LaserJockhowever, the *educational* components should basically be the same no matter what17:12
nubaesounds complicated17:12
LaserJockit is17:12
nubaebut u are more devs than I17:12
LaserJockfor instance, what about Xubuntu?!17:12
nubaeI am more a marketing guy17:12
* ogra would propose to talk to cjwatson for a better solution that makes it reasier ;)17:12
ogra*easier17:12
nubae\well the biggest flaw is ltsp not working in kde17:12
ograwhich is totally unrelated to edubuntu17:12
nubaewe lost 68 millions kids cause if that in brazil17:12
ograsure sure17:13
LaserJocknubae: we did?17:13
ograwhere do these numbers come from *g*17:13
nubaethe kde guys17:13
ograheh17:13
nubaethey reiterated it yesterday17:13
LaserJockI don't think *we* lost 68 million kids17:13
nubaethe cant alll be making up the same numbers17:13
LaserJockLinux *gained* 68 million kids, that's great17:13
nubaelook, ltsp is totally related to eduaction17:13
nubaeits the biggest market17:14
nubaewe all know this17:14
LaserJockit's one part of it17:14
* ogra wouldnt want to have to care for 68mio kids ... the daily amount of milk alone ...17:14
ograoh my17:14
nubaethe biggest by far17:14
LaserJockI see a lot of people who are talking about moving away to LTSP17:14
LaserJockto netbooks17:14
ograright17:14
nubae]well we can combine that17:14
ograltsp's usecase is far bigger than edu17:14
LaserJockand edu's is far bigger than ltsp17:14
nubaeand in fact i know devs working on it like nomad17:14
ograright17:14
LaserJockbut there is a good intersection17:14
ograright as well17:15
alkisg...also, if students get to know linux from their educational years, it'll be easier for them to use linux later on. Education is critical...17:15
LaserJockso, that's why I have LTSP as an area of focus in our strategy document17:15
nubaeanyway msut eat... ill get back in conversation soonl...17:15
LaserJockit's not *everything* but it's a common use case we need to care about at some level17:15
LaserJockright now though, the focus should be on getting what we *do* have ready17:16
ograsure17:16
ogramake KDE work with ltsp then17:16
LaserJockright17:16
ograits not ltsp's fault17:16
LaserJockI told aseigo that and he said he'd look into it17:16
ograits just that nobody ever cared to fix the apps17:16
LaserJockso, if KDE people want to help out, awesome17:16
ograright17:16
LaserJockthere's always a home for edu devs here :-)17:16
ograno objection here17:16
LaserJockalternatively, we're not just going to hop completely on the KDE boat either17:17
ograbut nobae is talking about "edubuntu is no KDE only, hooray" ... thats what i was objecting17:17
LaserJocksure17:17
ogra*now17:17
LaserJockI think we're now "equal oppritunity" :-)17:17
ograedubuntu needs to be xubuntu, gnome, icewm, kde, lxde, younameit17:18
LaserJockbasically how I see it is this17:18
ograits surely not there yet with the desktop deps ... but it cam a long way already17:18
ogra*came17:18
LaserJock1) we create educational app metapackage/bundles17:18
LaserJockthose can be install on any *buntu17:19
LaserJock2) edubuntu-desktop* add in special DE-specific extras for the "big guys" to make the Ubuntu/Kubuntu experience better17:19
LaserJockthe problem is really only on the .iso as far as I can see17:20
LaserJockas we have to essentially pick a .iso to base off of17:20
ograand thats something cjwatson can solve17:20
LaserJockright17:20
LaserJockso if KDE people want to come in and make edubuntu-desktop-kde better and make KDE Edu better, awesome17:21
LaserJockif GNOME people want to make edubuntu-desktop and sabayon, etc. better, awesome17:21
ograright17:21
LaserJockbut we are *education*, wherever that is17:21
LaserJockright now KDE has some *very* powerful stuff in plasma, etc.17:22
ograapparently17:23
LaserJockand we can always encourage them in that to make KDE better for education17:23
* ogra has to belive the hype apparently :)17:23
LaserJockit's pretty sweet17:23
LaserJockbut it seems heavy to me17:23
LaserJocknot something I'd want to run on loaded LTSP servers, for instance17:23
ograwell, the whole of KDE4 is still far from being shaken out properly imho17:24
ograat least what i have seen so far17:24
LaserJockKDE 4.2 is significanly better, almost usable even ;-)17:24
ograit definately needs to lose a lot of weight ... gnome 2.x took several years to get to that point17:25
ograi wouldnt assume KDE to be massively faster17:25
LaserJockapparently it runs on netbooks OK17:25
LaserJockbut I haven't tried it17:25
LaserJockogra: somebody has filed a bug requesting the removal of debian-edu from Ubuntu18:37
LaserJockogra: do you have any thoughts on what Debian would think of that?18:38
ogranothing i guess ... it breaks anyway on ubuntu18:38
LaserJockyeah18:38
LaserJockapparently morgs was having problems with their sugar package18:39
ograits totally debian centric and does a lot nonstd stuff afauk18:39
ogra*afaik18:39
LaserJockI think I'll go ahead and ack it, it's so confusing as is to have education-*18:39
ogralike editing conffiles from postinst etc ... unless they fixed that18:39
LaserJockI just don't want Debian thinking we're being mean18:40
LaserJock:-)18:40
ogrado you know who filed it ?18:40
LaserJockit was filed by  lfaraone in response to a bug from morgs18:41
LaserJockand slangasek asked for an ack18:41
LaserJockit in Universe so technically MOTU territory18:41
LaserJockbut I think it's more an issue with Edubuntu18:41
LaserJocksince I plan on having a set of educational metapackage for Universe the usefulness of the debian-edu ones is much less18:42
LaserJockespecially when we have transitions18:42
LaserJockfor instance, I believe their still using KDE3 stuff so some of the packages are uninstallable18:43
ograyeah18:44
ograjust drop it18:44
LaserJockyikes, Debian has fixed a *ton* of moodle bugs18:46
LaserJockand there's new maintainers18:46
ograhrm18:48
ogramoodle is my hell of pain ...18:48
ograi still havent found the time to merge it18:48
ograand even keescook is hunting me down for it already18:49
ograit being a security risk in jaunty ...18:49
LaserJockogra: I'll have a look18:50
LaserJockwe've gotten a few upgrade/uninstallable bugs from it as well18:50
* ogra hugs LaserJock 18:50
LaserJockserver stuff isn't my best area, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some more ;-)18:51
LaserJockit might be a good chance to use the ~edubuntu-dev PPA18:52
LaserJocksince I think it might need some testing before we just shove it in18:53

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