[01:33] <nothingman> hi, all
[01:34] <LaserJock> hi nothingman
[01:37] <nothingman> what's new?
[01:40] <LaserJock> not a ton
[01:52] <xmedex> hello...someone could help me
[02:24] <LaserJock> xmedex: what do you need?
[02:24] <stgraber> LaserJock: pong (hyper late one)
[02:25] <LaserJock> stgraber: np, just wanted to catch up a bit
[02:25] <LaserJock> stgraber: you available for a meeting sometime this week?
[02:27] <stgraber> LaserJock: probably yes
[02:29] <LaserJock> stgraber: what's a good time of day for you?
[02:29] <LaserJock> stgraber: how's LTSP going?
[02:30] <stgraber> LaserJock: anytime from 8am-12am and 1pm-5pm EST should be fine
[02:30] <stgraber> LaserJock: LTSP is going fine, I just uploaded a new package a few hours ago and have a few things to implement before FF but that still leaves me plenty of time
[02:31] <LaserJock> stgraber: you been able to do many test installs?
[02:31] <stgraber> most features are already there, I just need to implement a better way of adding Ubuntu-specific stuff to it (like hardware-specific workarounds)
[02:32] <stgraber> I'm actually testing ltsp-build-client to make sure it behaves as it should :) then I have to make sure it works on the CD as well (it failed for alpha-4 ...)
[02:33] <stgraber> I also uploaded a new italc to my PPA for testing, it should fix most issues I heard about (mainly for LTSP users)
[02:33] <LaserJock> stgraber: ok, cool
[02:34] <stgraber> I'll test it next week and if there is no regression upload it
[02:36] <stgraber> one thing I still have to do is to update the default themes in ldm but not having the new artwork for ubuntu doesn't help :)
[02:37] <stgraber> though we have a different freeze for that IIRC
[02:38] <LaserJock> rright
[02:39] <LaserJock> stgraber: have you had a chance to look at how LTSP is doing on Hardy lately?
[02:44] <LaserJock> vorian: heah
[02:44] <vorian> HI!
[02:45] <vorian> LaserJock: I'm working on sponsoring the sugar update... and suddenly realized of all the channels i'm on, this was not one :)
[02:46] <stgraber> LaserJock: not really, scotty wanted to look at what would need to be fixed in hardy.
[02:46] <LaserJock> stgraber: k, np
[02:46] <stgraber> LaserJock: I don't deploy Hardy anymore and the hardy we deployed was some kind of fork ...
[02:47] <LaserJock> vorian: ah, cool
[02:47] <stgraber> LaserJock: the main issue I guess is that since Hardy a very large part of LTSP was changed making it hard to backport a fix to Hardy (it'd already be hard for Intrepid)
[02:47] <stgraber> my customers are actually running Jaunty's LTSP backported on Intrepid :)
[03:01] <LaserJock> vorian: thanks for those uploads
[03:02] <vorian> LaserJock: no problem, these packages are very well made :)
[03:08] <LaserJock> vorian: I'm sure morgs will be glad to hear that
[03:08] <vorian> :)
[03:10] <vorian> hrm
[03:10] <vorian> archives down?
[03:11] <vorian> seems that way
[03:15] <stgraber> yeah
[03:15] <stgraber> I uploaded to it several hours ago and it's still pending
[03:15] <stgraber> built fine but never reached the archive
[03:19] <vorian> my pbuilder is getting 404's when it tries to get dependancies
[03:19] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:20] <LaserJock> I built something just a minute or two ago
[03:21] <stgraber> yeah, you get confirmation from LP, then it builds but never appears in the archive :) LTSP is marked as pending (as in pending upload to archive.ubuntu.com) for a few hours now
[03:21] <stgraber> (but is built for all archs so seems like it's the cron job doing the copy from LP to archive that's failing)
[03:24]  * vorian tries another mirror
[03:24] <stgraber> I'm using archive.ubuntu.com so it's supposed to be up to date :)
[03:25] <stgraber> and LP marks it as PENDING so it's not a mirroring issue, otherwise it'd be PUBLISHED and missing on the mirrors
[03:27]  * LaserJock kicks edubuntu-meta around a few times
[03:27] <LaserJock> stupid thing
[03:54] <LaserJock> take that dpkg!!
[04:00] <LaserJock> edubuntu-meta away
[04:02] <vorian> all sugar packages away!
[04:02] <vorian> morgs: awesome job!
[06:00] <alkisg> LaserJock: about all the (gcompris-sound-cs) dependencies, can't gcompris recommend a package based on the system language? E.g. gcompris-sound-el isn't even on the list, and all other sounds are useless for e.g. greek schools...
[06:02] <LaserJock> we don't have any mechanism to make that work right now
[06:03] <alkisg> LaserJock: ok, I thought it would be simple (like gnome-language-pack-*)... :)
[06:03] <LaserJock> the only system I know for that is in ubiquity, which doesn't help us out
[06:03] <LaserJock> well, if the sounds were in a lang-pack then yes
[06:03] <LaserJock> but they're not and I can't imagine that would ever happen
[06:04] <LaserJock> alkisg: I really can't think of any good system off hand to make it better
[06:05] <alkisg> I don't know almost anything about packaging, so don't mind me... :)
[06:05] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if the language selector could be used, perhaps though
[06:05] <alkisg> I just thought language-based selection of packages would be something that the .deb packaging system would offer
[06:05] <LaserJock> nope, that's all stuff we have to add on top
[06:07] <LaserJock> the packaging system itself just provides for hard-coded dependencies, there's nothing dynamic about it
[06:07] <alkisg> So when I install openoffice, how does e.g. openoffice.org-l10n-el get installed?
[06:07] <alkisg> That's ubiquity magic?
[06:08] <LaserJock> yep
[06:08] <alkisg> Ah, I see the problem... :(
[06:10] <alkisg> .debs should support at least a <system-lang> macro. E.g. gcompris recommends gcompris-sound-<system-lang|en>
[06:10] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure if it's ubiquity or the language selector for OO.o
[06:10] <LaserJock> language-support-translations-el depends on openoffice.org-l10n-el
[06:11] <alkisg> I don't have language-support-translations-el installed
[06:11] <LaserJock> k
[06:11] <LaserJock> then perhaps that's ubiquity
[06:11] <alkisg> (but I think I should, thanks! :))
[06:13] <LaserJock> it used to be we didn't even have the flexibility of Recommends
[06:13] <LaserJock> we got that around Intrepid I think
[06:14] <LaserJock> it used to be only packages in Depends where installed, and if one of them was uninstalled it uninstalled everything
[15:08] <sbalneav> Morning all
[16:34] <nubae> hmmm so my connection dropped yesteday and just got back from fossdem...
[16:34] <nubae> ogra u around?
[16:37] <alkisg> hey nubae - get up your bot, we need logs! :P :D
[16:37] <alkisg> (welcome back)!
[16:52] <ogra> alkisg, ubuntulog doesnt suffice ?
[16:52] <ogra> nubae, with half an eye ...
[16:53] <alkisg> ogra: sorry, wrong channel, I was talking about the #ltsp logs :)
[16:53] <ogra> :)
[16:53] <nubae> ogra.... hey there
[16:54] <nubae> so u just wanted to know ure objections to moving to kde as the edubuntu platform]
[16:54] <nubae> obviously not entirely, but juts to get an inflflux of developers
[16:55] <ogra> my objections are that edubuntu shouldnt care about the desktop ... its an addon
[16:55] <nubae> we already use the deps from kde-edu and lets be honest they are the best ones and work the way they are supposed to]
[16:55] <ogra> i dont doubt that
[16:56] <nubae> an addon without the most important aspect... it wont addon to kde will it?
[16:56] <ogra> but edubuntu should work with icewm as well as with gnome and kde by including the best edu apps possible, regardless what platform is underneatj
[16:56] <ogra> thats why we put about six months of effort into decoupling it from the desktop
[16:56] <ogra> sure it will addon to kde
[16:57] <ogra> laser has split it into two parts though (a kde and a gnome part( which i wouldnt agree with either ...
[16:57] <nubae> hmmm but what about integration of aps like the one I mentioned using plasmoids as teacher tools
[16:57] <ogra> but thats up to you guys anyway
[16:58] <ogra> i just am not happy to hear someone say edubuntu is kde now or edubuntu is gnome only
[16:58] <ogra> since that means all my work i put into removing that desktop binding was moot
[16:59] <ogra> the idea was to have it just a s the best set of edu apps possible with the option to install it as metapackage on any given desktop you like
[17:00] <LaserJock> morning all
[17:00] <ogra> reverting that to deeply bind it into any desktop again imho totally misses the point
[17:00] <ogra> and will just re-fuel the desktop wars again
[17:00] <ogra> hey LaserJock
[17:02] <nubae> hey LaserJock
[17:02] <nubae> was just talking about something that involves u kinda
[17:02] <nubae> yesterday and the day before I was in fossdem
[17:02] <nubae> and spoke for a couple hours to the kde guys
[17:03] <nubae> who expressed a greast interest into getting involved in edubuntu
[17:03] <LaserJock> awesome
[17:03] <nubae> ogra was just saying that it kinda defeats the purpose, bieng htat it shold be platform independent
[17:03] <ogra> no
[17:04] <ogra> thats not what i said, i appreciate kde devs (especially kdeedu) getting involved
[17:05] <nubae> but i was shown some exsiting apps, based on plasmoids that totally blew my mind... with reallty a couple of lines of code they made a parley plasmoid that switched every 10 seconds with words/sentences based on languages u choose
[17:05] <nubae> that kinda shit is exactly what children need
[17:05] <LaserJock> nubae: right
[17:05] <nubae> the kde-edu team is massive
[17:05] <LaserJock> yep
[17:05] <ogra> wht i said was that we made a lot of effort to make edubuntu an addon thats desktop independent and that i strongly oppose to declare is as a kde or gnome solution but that it should be usable on *any* kind of desktop and sould be promoted like that
[17:05] <nubae> they wanna get involved
[17:06] <nubae> Ive been given the details on who to get involved with at the kde level team
[17:06] <nubae> and get them to be a part of edubuntu
[17:06] <LaserJock> ogra: I agree, however there are some complications to that
[17:06] <nubae> the question is, do we all agree?
[17:06] <ogra> i.e. if a school has an underpowered ltsp server they should be able to use edubuntu on top of icewm ltsp desktops
[17:06] <ogra> without having to think about it being kde, gnome whatever
[17:06] <LaserJock> our primary focus should *always* be Education
[17:07] <nubae> ogra but it doesnt work that way... take a loook at sugar
[17:07] <ogra> nubae, as i said, i dont have to say anyting anymore in edubuntu land its up to you all
[17:07] <nubae> it does stuff dependent on what sugar deps are required
[17:07] <LaserJock> ogra: except you're the Edubuntu godfather :-)
[17:07] <nubae> the other thing is.... kde 4.2 soesnt with with ltsp
[17:08] <LaserJock> ogra: you have more Edubuntu experience than all of us combined I think
[17:08] <nubae> it severlty limits our deployments
[17:08] <ogra> LaserJock, but i dont do anything anymore ... i'm happy to step back ... just stating my opinion
[17:08] <LaserJock> ogra: sure, I'm just saying it's a very valued opinion
[17:08] <nubae> but u are involved in many aspects
[17:08] <nubae> we need your leadership in some ways, and your experience
[17:08] <ogra> LaserJock, i'm aware of that :)
[17:08] <LaserJock> ok, so let me step back for a sec
[17:09] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is about education, simple enough
[17:09] <ogra> nubae, so what about sugar ... the edubuntu-sugar metapackage would pull in all deps needed
[17:09] <nubae> we are talking about an addoncc
[17:09] <nubae> addoncd
[17:09] <ogra> and ?
[17:09] <LaserJock> one of the issues that we have is that it's rather difficult to create a totally DE-neutral educational layer
[17:09] <nubae> what happens when we combine sugar, kde and gnome
[17:09] <ogra> if you seed the metapackage germinate will dtrt
[17:09] <nubae> ]are we then talking about a addon dvd?
[17:10] <LaserJock> nubae: no
[17:10] <LaserJock> adding sugar to what we already have would be easy
[17:10] <LaserJock> the problem is that the CD relys on Ubuntu
[17:10] <LaserJock> hence the "gnome dependency"
[17:10] <nubae> but not kde and gnome with the entire desktop
[17:10] <nubae> which we need for the plasmoids
[17:10] <LaserJock> no
[17:11] <LaserJock> ok
[17:11] <LaserJock> so this is why we have edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde, IMO
[17:11] <nubae> right!
[17:11] <LaserJock> the eductional apps are the same
[17:11] <LaserJock> but we fill in the cracks to make them work with the underlying DE
[17:11] <ogra> right
[17:12] <LaserJock> however, the *educational* components should basically be the same no matter what
[17:12] <nubae> sounds complicated
[17:12] <LaserJock> it is
[17:12] <nubae> but u are more devs than I
[17:12] <LaserJock> for instance, what about Xubuntu?!
[17:12] <nubae> I am more a marketing guy
[17:12]  * ogra would propose to talk to cjwatson for a better solution that makes it reasier ;)
[17:12] <ogra> *easier
[17:12] <nubae> \well the biggest flaw is ltsp not working in kde
[17:12] <ogra> which is totally unrelated to edubuntu
[17:12] <nubae> we lost 68 millions kids cause if that in brazil
[17:13] <ogra> sure sure
[17:13] <LaserJock> nubae: we did?
[17:13] <ogra> where do these numbers come from *g*
[17:13] <nubae> the kde guys
[17:13] <ogra> heh
[17:13] <nubae> they reiterated it yesterday
[17:13] <LaserJock> I don't think *we* lost 68 million kids
[17:13] <nubae> the cant alll be making up the same numbers
[17:13] <LaserJock> Linux *gained* 68 million kids, that's great
[17:13] <nubae> look, ltsp is totally related to eduaction
[17:14] <nubae> its the biggest market
[17:14] <nubae> we all know this
[17:14] <LaserJock> it's one part of it
[17:14]  * ogra wouldnt want to have to care for 68mio kids ... the daily amount of milk alone ...
[17:14] <ogra> oh my
[17:14] <nubae> the biggest by far
[17:14] <LaserJock> I see a lot of people who are talking about moving away to LTSP
[17:14] <LaserJock> to netbooks
[17:14] <ogra> right
[17:14] <nubae> ]well we can combine that
[17:14] <ogra> ltsp's usecase is far bigger than edu
[17:14] <LaserJock> and edu's is far bigger than ltsp
[17:14] <nubae> and in fact i know devs working on it like nomad
[17:14] <ogra> right
[17:14] <LaserJock> but there is a good intersection
[17:15] <ogra> right as well
[17:15] <alkisg> ...also, if students get to know linux from their educational years, it'll be easier for them to use linux later on. Education is critical...
[17:15] <LaserJock> so, that's why I have LTSP as an area of focus in our strategy document
[17:15] <nubae> anyway msut eat... ill get back in conversation soonl...
[17:15] <LaserJock> it's not *everything* but it's a common use case we need to care about at some level
[17:16] <LaserJock> right now though, the focus should be on getting what we *do* have ready
[17:16] <ogra> sure
[17:16] <ogra> make KDE work with ltsp then
[17:16] <LaserJock> right
[17:16] <ogra> its not ltsp's fault
[17:16] <LaserJock> I told aseigo that and he said he'd look into it
[17:16] <ogra> its just that nobody ever cared to fix the apps
[17:16] <LaserJock> so, if KDE people want to help out, awesome
[17:16] <ogra> right
[17:16] <LaserJock> there's always a home for edu devs here :-)
[17:16] <ogra> no objection here
[17:17] <LaserJock> alternatively, we're not just going to hop completely on the KDE boat either
[17:17] <ogra> but nobae is talking about "edubuntu is no KDE only, hooray" ... thats what i was objecting
[17:17] <LaserJock> sure
[17:17] <ogra> *now
[17:17] <LaserJock> I think we're now "equal oppritunity" :-)
[17:18] <ogra> edubuntu needs to be xubuntu, gnome, icewm, kde, lxde, younameit
[17:18] <LaserJock> basically how I see it is this
[17:18] <ogra> its surely not there yet with the desktop deps ... but it cam a long way already
[17:18] <ogra> *came
[17:18] <LaserJock> 1) we create educational app metapackage/bundles
[17:19] <LaserJock> those can be install on any *buntu
[17:19] <LaserJock> 2) edubuntu-desktop* add in special DE-specific extras for the "big guys" to make the Ubuntu/Kubuntu experience better
[17:20] <LaserJock> the problem is really only on the .iso as far as I can see
[17:20] <LaserJock> as we have to essentially pick a .iso to base off of
[17:20] <ogra> and thats something cjwatson can solve
[17:20] <LaserJock> right
[17:21] <LaserJock> so if KDE people want to come in and make edubuntu-desktop-kde better and make KDE Edu better, awesome
[17:21] <LaserJock> if GNOME people want to make edubuntu-desktop and sabayon, etc. better, awesome
[17:21] <ogra> right
[17:21] <LaserJock> but we are *education*, wherever that is
[17:22] <LaserJock> right now KDE has some *very* powerful stuff in plasma, etc.
[17:23] <ogra> apparently
[17:23] <LaserJock> and we can always encourage them in that to make KDE better for education
[17:23]  * ogra has to belive the hype apparently :)
[17:23] <LaserJock> it's pretty sweet
[17:23] <LaserJock> but it seems heavy to me
[17:23] <LaserJock> not something I'd want to run on loaded LTSP servers, for instance
[17:24] <ogra> well, the whole of KDE4 is still far from being shaken out properly imho
[17:24] <ogra> at least what i have seen so far
[17:24] <LaserJock> KDE 4.2 is significanly better, almost usable even ;-)
[17:25] <ogra> it definately needs to lose a lot of weight ... gnome 2.x took several years to get to that point
[17:25] <ogra> i wouldnt assume KDE to be massively faster
[17:25] <LaserJock> apparently it runs on netbooks OK
[17:25] <LaserJock> but I haven't tried it
[18:37] <LaserJock> ogra: somebody has filed a bug requesting the removal of debian-edu from Ubuntu
[18:38] <LaserJock> ogra: do you have any thoughts on what Debian would think of that?
[18:38] <ogra> nothing i guess ... it breaks anyway on ubuntu
[18:38] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:39] <LaserJock> apparently morgs was having problems with their sugar package
[18:39] <ogra> its totally debian centric and does a lot nonstd stuff afauk
[18:39] <ogra> *afaik
[18:39] <LaserJock> I think I'll go ahead and ack it, it's so confusing as is to have education-*
[18:39] <ogra> like editing conffiles from postinst etc ... unless they fixed that
[18:40] <LaserJock> I just don't want Debian thinking we're being mean
[18:40] <LaserJock> :-)
[18:40] <ogra> do you know who filed it ?
[18:41] <LaserJock> it was filed by  lfaraone in response to a bug from morgs
[18:41] <LaserJock> and slangasek asked for an ack
[18:41] <LaserJock> it in Universe so technically MOTU territory
[18:41] <LaserJock> but I think it's more an issue with Edubuntu
[18:42] <LaserJock> since I plan on having a set of educational metapackage for Universe the usefulness of the debian-edu ones is much less
[18:42] <LaserJock> especially when we have transitions
[18:43] <LaserJock> for instance, I believe their still using KDE3 stuff so some of the packages are uninstallable
[18:44] <ogra> yeah
[18:44] <ogra> just drop it
[18:46] <LaserJock> yikes, Debian has fixed a *ton* of moodle bugs
[18:46] <LaserJock> and there's new maintainers
[18:48] <ogra> hrm
[18:48] <ogra> moodle is my hell of pain ...
[18:48] <ogra> i still havent found the time to merge it
[18:49] <ogra> and even keescook is hunting me down for it already
[18:49] <ogra> it being a security risk in jaunty ...
[18:50] <LaserJock> ogra: I'll have a look
[18:50] <LaserJock> we've gotten a few upgrade/uninstallable bugs from it as well
[18:50]  * ogra hugs LaserJock 
[18:51] <LaserJock> server stuff isn't my best area, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some more ;-)
[18:52] <LaserJock> it might be a good chance to use the ~edubuntu-dev PPA
[18:53] <LaserJock> since I think it might need some testing before we just shove it in