[01:33] hi, all [01:34] hi nothingman [01:37] what's new? [01:40] not a ton [01:52] hello...someone could help me [02:24] xmedex: what do you need? [02:24] LaserJock: pong (hyper late one) [02:25] stgraber: np, just wanted to catch up a bit [02:25] stgraber: you available for a meeting sometime this week? [02:27] LaserJock: probably yes [02:29] stgraber: what's a good time of day for you? [02:29] stgraber: how's LTSP going? [02:30] LaserJock: anytime from 8am-12am and 1pm-5pm EST should be fine [02:30] LaserJock: LTSP is going fine, I just uploaded a new package a few hours ago and have a few things to implement before FF but that still leaves me plenty of time [02:31] stgraber: you been able to do many test installs? [02:31] most features are already there, I just need to implement a better way of adding Ubuntu-specific stuff to it (like hardware-specific workarounds) [02:32] I'm actually testing ltsp-build-client to make sure it behaves as it should :) then I have to make sure it works on the CD as well (it failed for alpha-4 ...) [02:33] I also uploaded a new italc to my PPA for testing, it should fix most issues I heard about (mainly for LTSP users) [02:33] stgraber: ok, cool [02:34] I'll test it next week and if there is no regression upload it [02:36] one thing I still have to do is to update the default themes in ldm but not having the new artwork for ubuntu doesn't help :) [02:37] though we have a different freeze for that IIRC [02:38] rright [02:39] stgraber: have you had a chance to look at how LTSP is doing on Hardy lately? [02:44] vorian: heah [02:44] HI! [02:45] LaserJock: I'm working on sponsoring the sugar update... and suddenly realized of all the channels i'm on, this was not one :) [02:46] LaserJock: not really, scotty wanted to look at what would need to be fixed in hardy. [02:46] stgraber: k, np [02:46] LaserJock: I don't deploy Hardy anymore and the hardy we deployed was some kind of fork ... [02:47] vorian: ah, cool [02:47] LaserJock: the main issue I guess is that since Hardy a very large part of LTSP was changed making it hard to backport a fix to Hardy (it'd already be hard for Intrepid) [02:47] my customers are actually running Jaunty's LTSP backported on Intrepid :) [03:01] vorian: thanks for those uploads [03:02] LaserJock: no problem, these packages are very well made :) [03:08] vorian: I'm sure morgs will be glad to hear that [03:08] :) [03:10] hrm [03:10] archives down? [03:11] seems that way [03:15] yeah [03:15] I uploaded to it several hours ago and it's still pending [03:15] built fine but never reached the archive [03:19] my pbuilder is getting 404's when it tries to get dependancies [03:19] hmm [03:20] I built something just a minute or two ago [03:21] yeah, you get confirmation from LP, then it builds but never appears in the archive :) LTSP is marked as pending (as in pending upload to archive.ubuntu.com) for a few hours now [03:21] (but is built for all archs so seems like it's the cron job doing the copy from LP to archive that's failing) [03:24] * vorian tries another mirror [03:24] I'm using archive.ubuntu.com so it's supposed to be up to date :) [03:25] and LP marks it as PENDING so it's not a mirroring issue, otherwise it'd be PUBLISHED and missing on the mirrors [03:27] * LaserJock kicks edubuntu-meta around a few times [03:27] stupid thing [03:54] take that dpkg!! [04:00] edubuntu-meta away [04:02] all sugar packages away! [04:02] morgs: awesome job! [06:00] LaserJock: about all the (gcompris-sound-cs) dependencies, can't gcompris recommend a package based on the system language? E.g. gcompris-sound-el isn't even on the list, and all other sounds are useless for e.g. greek schools... [06:02] we don't have any mechanism to make that work right now [06:03] LaserJock: ok, I thought it would be simple (like gnome-language-pack-*)... :) [06:03] the only system I know for that is in ubiquity, which doesn't help us out [06:03] well, if the sounds were in a lang-pack then yes [06:03] but they're not and I can't imagine that would ever happen [06:04] alkisg: I really can't think of any good system off hand to make it better [06:05] I don't know almost anything about packaging, so don't mind me... :) [06:05] I'm not sure if the language selector could be used, perhaps though [06:05] I just thought language-based selection of packages would be something that the .deb packaging system would offer [06:05] nope, that's all stuff we have to add on top [06:07] the packaging system itself just provides for hard-coded dependencies, there's nothing dynamic about it [06:07] So when I install openoffice, how does e.g. openoffice.org-l10n-el get installed? [06:07] That's ubiquity magic? [06:08] yep [06:08] Ah, I see the problem... :( [06:10] .debs should support at least a macro. E.g. gcompris recommends gcompris-sound- [06:10] well, I'm not sure if it's ubiquity or the language selector for OO.o [06:10] language-support-translations-el depends on openoffice.org-l10n-el [06:11] I don't have language-support-translations-el installed [06:11] k [06:11] then perhaps that's ubiquity [06:11] (but I think I should, thanks! :)) [06:13] it used to be we didn't even have the flexibility of Recommends [06:13] we got that around Intrepid I think [06:14] it used to be only packages in Depends where installed, and if one of them was uninstalled it uninstalled everything === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg [15:08] Morning all === hfsdo_ is now known as hfsdo === ogra_ is now known as ogra [16:34] hmmm so my connection dropped yesteday and just got back from fossdem... [16:34] ogra u around? [16:37] hey nubae - get up your bot, we need logs! :P :D [16:37] (welcome back)! [16:52] alkisg, ubuntulog doesnt suffice ? [16:52] nubae, with half an eye ... [16:53] ogra: sorry, wrong channel, I was talking about the #ltsp logs :) [16:53] :) [16:53] ogra.... hey there [16:54] so u just wanted to know ure objections to moving to kde as the edubuntu platform] [16:54] obviously not entirely, but juts to get an inflflux of developers [16:55] my objections are that edubuntu shouldnt care about the desktop ... its an addon [16:55] we already use the deps from kde-edu and lets be honest they are the best ones and work the way they are supposed to] [16:55] i dont doubt that [16:56] an addon without the most important aspect... it wont addon to kde will it? [16:56] but edubuntu should work with icewm as well as with gnome and kde by including the best edu apps possible, regardless what platform is underneatj [16:56] thats why we put about six months of effort into decoupling it from the desktop [16:56] sure it will addon to kde [16:57] laser has split it into two parts though (a kde and a gnome part( which i wouldnt agree with either ... [16:57] hmmm but what about integration of aps like the one I mentioned using plasmoids as teacher tools [16:57] but thats up to you guys anyway [16:58] i just am not happy to hear someone say edubuntu is kde now or edubuntu is gnome only [16:58] since that means all my work i put into removing that desktop binding was moot [16:59] the idea was to have it just a s the best set of edu apps possible with the option to install it as metapackage on any given desktop you like [17:00] morning all [17:00] reverting that to deeply bind it into any desktop again imho totally misses the point [17:00] and will just re-fuel the desktop wars again [17:00] hey LaserJock [17:02] hey LaserJock [17:02] was just talking about something that involves u kinda [17:02] yesterday and the day before I was in fossdem [17:02] and spoke for a couple hours to the kde guys [17:03] who expressed a greast interest into getting involved in edubuntu [17:03] awesome [17:03] ogra was just saying that it kinda defeats the purpose, bieng htat it shold be platform independent [17:03] no [17:04] thats not what i said, i appreciate kde devs (especially kdeedu) getting involved [17:05] but i was shown some exsiting apps, based on plasmoids that totally blew my mind... with reallty a couple of lines of code they made a parley plasmoid that switched every 10 seconds with words/sentences based on languages u choose [17:05] that kinda shit is exactly what children need [17:05] nubae: right [17:05] the kde-edu team is massive [17:05] yep [17:05] wht i said was that we made a lot of effort to make edubuntu an addon thats desktop independent and that i strongly oppose to declare is as a kde or gnome solution but that it should be usable on *any* kind of desktop and sould be promoted like that [17:05] they wanna get involved [17:06] Ive been given the details on who to get involved with at the kde level team [17:06] and get them to be a part of edubuntu [17:06] ogra: I agree, however there are some complications to that [17:06] the question is, do we all agree? [17:06] i.e. if a school has an underpowered ltsp server they should be able to use edubuntu on top of icewm ltsp desktops [17:06] without having to think about it being kde, gnome whatever [17:06] our primary focus should *always* be Education [17:07] ogra but it doesnt work that way... take a loook at sugar [17:07] nubae, as i said, i dont have to say anyting anymore in edubuntu land its up to you all [17:07] it does stuff dependent on what sugar deps are required [17:07] ogra: except you're the Edubuntu godfather :-) [17:07] the other thing is.... kde 4.2 soesnt with with ltsp [17:08] ogra: you have more Edubuntu experience than all of us combined I think [17:08] it severlty limits our deployments [17:08] LaserJock, but i dont do anything anymore ... i'm happy to step back ... just stating my opinion [17:08] ogra: sure, I'm just saying it's a very valued opinion [17:08] but u are involved in many aspects [17:08] we need your leadership in some ways, and your experience [17:08] LaserJock, i'm aware of that :) [17:08] ok, so let me step back for a sec [17:09] Edubuntu is about education, simple enough [17:09] nubae, so what about sugar ... the edubuntu-sugar metapackage would pull in all deps needed [17:09] we are talking about an addoncc [17:09] addoncd [17:09] and ? [17:09] one of the issues that we have is that it's rather difficult to create a totally DE-neutral educational layer [17:09] what happens when we combine sugar, kde and gnome [17:09] if you seed the metapackage germinate will dtrt [17:09] ]are we then talking about a addon dvd? [17:10] nubae: no [17:10] adding sugar to what we already have would be easy [17:10] the problem is that the CD relys on Ubuntu [17:10] hence the "gnome dependency" [17:10] but not kde and gnome with the entire desktop [17:10] which we need for the plasmoids [17:10] no [17:11] ok [17:11] so this is why we have edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde, IMO [17:11] right! [17:11] the eductional apps are the same [17:11] but we fill in the cracks to make them work with the underlying DE [17:11] right [17:12] however, the *educational* components should basically be the same no matter what [17:12] sounds complicated [17:12] it is [17:12] but u are more devs than I [17:12] for instance, what about Xubuntu?! [17:12] I am more a marketing guy [17:12] * ogra would propose to talk to cjwatson for a better solution that makes it reasier ;) [17:12] *easier [17:12] \well the biggest flaw is ltsp not working in kde [17:12] which is totally unrelated to edubuntu [17:12] we lost 68 millions kids cause if that in brazil [17:13] sure sure [17:13] nubae: we did? [17:13] where do these numbers come from *g* [17:13] the kde guys [17:13] heh [17:13] they reiterated it yesterday [17:13] I don't think *we* lost 68 million kids [17:13] the cant alll be making up the same numbers [17:13] Linux *gained* 68 million kids, that's great [17:13] look, ltsp is totally related to eduaction [17:14] its the biggest market [17:14] we all know this [17:14] it's one part of it [17:14] * ogra wouldnt want to have to care for 68mio kids ... the daily amount of milk alone ... [17:14] oh my [17:14] the biggest by far [17:14] I see a lot of people who are talking about moving away to LTSP [17:14] to netbooks [17:14] right [17:14] ]well we can combine that [17:14] ltsp's usecase is far bigger than edu [17:14] and edu's is far bigger than ltsp [17:14] and in fact i know devs working on it like nomad [17:14] right [17:14] but there is a good intersection [17:15] right as well [17:15] ...also, if students get to know linux from their educational years, it'll be easier for them to use linux later on. Education is critical... [17:15] so, that's why I have LTSP as an area of focus in our strategy document [17:15] anyway msut eat... ill get back in conversation soonl... [17:15] it's not *everything* but it's a common use case we need to care about at some level [17:16] right now though, the focus should be on getting what we *do* have ready [17:16] sure [17:16] make KDE work with ltsp then [17:16] right [17:16] its not ltsp's fault [17:16] I told aseigo that and he said he'd look into it [17:16] its just that nobody ever cared to fix the apps [17:16] so, if KDE people want to help out, awesome [17:16] right [17:16] there's always a home for edu devs here :-) [17:16] no objection here [17:17] alternatively, we're not just going to hop completely on the KDE boat either [17:17] but nobae is talking about "edubuntu is no KDE only, hooray" ... thats what i was objecting [17:17] sure [17:17] *now [17:17] I think we're now "equal oppritunity" :-) [17:18] edubuntu needs to be xubuntu, gnome, icewm, kde, lxde, younameit [17:18] basically how I see it is this [17:18] its surely not there yet with the desktop deps ... but it cam a long way already [17:18] *came [17:18] 1) we create educational app metapackage/bundles [17:19] those can be install on any *buntu [17:19] 2) edubuntu-desktop* add in special DE-specific extras for the "big guys" to make the Ubuntu/Kubuntu experience better [17:20] the problem is really only on the .iso as far as I can see [17:20] as we have to essentially pick a .iso to base off of [17:20] and thats something cjwatson can solve [17:20] right [17:21] so if KDE people want to come in and make edubuntu-desktop-kde better and make KDE Edu better, awesome [17:21] if GNOME people want to make edubuntu-desktop and sabayon, etc. better, awesome [17:21] right [17:21] but we are *education*, wherever that is [17:22] right now KDE has some *very* powerful stuff in plasma, etc. [17:23] apparently [17:23] and we can always encourage them in that to make KDE better for education [17:23] * ogra has to belive the hype apparently :) [17:23] it's pretty sweet [17:23] but it seems heavy to me [17:23] not something I'd want to run on loaded LTSP servers, for instance [17:24] well, the whole of KDE4 is still far from being shaken out properly imho [17:24] at least what i have seen so far [17:24] KDE 4.2 is significanly better, almost usable even ;-) [17:25] it definately needs to lose a lot of weight ... gnome 2.x took several years to get to that point [17:25] i wouldnt assume KDE to be massively faster [17:25] apparently it runs on netbooks OK [17:25] but I haven't tried it [18:37] ogra: somebody has filed a bug requesting the removal of debian-edu from Ubuntu [18:38] ogra: do you have any thoughts on what Debian would think of that? [18:38] nothing i guess ... it breaks anyway on ubuntu [18:38] yeah [18:39] apparently morgs was having problems with their sugar package [18:39] its totally debian centric and does a lot nonstd stuff afauk [18:39] *afaik [18:39] I think I'll go ahead and ack it, it's so confusing as is to have education-* [18:39] like editing conffiles from postinst etc ... unless they fixed that [18:40] I just don't want Debian thinking we're being mean [18:40] :-) [18:40] do you know who filed it ? [18:41] it was filed by lfaraone in response to a bug from morgs [18:41] and slangasek asked for an ack [18:41] it in Universe so technically MOTU territory [18:41] but I think it's more an issue with Edubuntu [18:42] since I plan on having a set of educational metapackage for Universe the usefulness of the debian-edu ones is much less [18:42] especially when we have transitions [18:43] for instance, I believe their still using KDE3 stuff so some of the packages are uninstallable [18:44] yeah [18:44] just drop it [18:46] yikes, Debian has fixed a *ton* of moodle bugs [18:46] and there's new maintainers [18:48] hrm [18:48] moodle is my hell of pain ... [18:48] i still havent found the time to merge it [18:49] and even keescook is hunting me down for it already [18:49] it being a security risk in jaunty ... [18:50] ogra: I'll have a look [18:50] we've gotten a few upgrade/uninstallable bugs from it as well [18:50] * ogra hugs LaserJock [18:51] server stuff isn't my best area, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some more ;-) [18:52] it might be a good chance to use the ~edubuntu-dev PPA [18:53] since I think it might need some testing before we just shove it in