[00:12] rgreening: Seen: http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=906 [00:22] Riddell and rgreening: If upstream is saying "Don't run 4.2 on Qt 4.5", it seems pretty risky to me. [01:37] ScottK: I'm trying to build kvpnc but I have this error http://paste.ubuntu.com/115838/ [01:37] file rules http://paste.ubuntu.com/115837/ [01:38] there isn't file configure in src, there was in old version [01:38] This is a new release you are packaging? [01:39] yes [01:39] You need to run build-prep [01:39] make -f debian/rules build-prep I think. [01:41] lex79: Is this something that can even work in Jaunty? [01:42] for kpackagekit in jaunty is there something i need to do to be able to search and install stuff? do i have to reload the repos first? === quassel17 is now known as jjesse-jaunty [01:42] kvpnc is a new release for kde4 [01:42] also when i launched it from krunner it did not ask for my sudo password [01:42] lex79: In that case does it use Cmake? [01:42] in repository there is a version for kde3 [01:42] it uses cmake [01:43] You need to change kde.mk to kde4.mk [01:43] installed kpackagekit from universe in jaunty btw in case that matters [01:43] ok.. [01:43] ok but build-prep failed... [01:43] make: *** No rule to make target `build-prep'. Stop. [01:43] Build-prep was for a KDE 3 pacakge. [01:43] I didn't know it was KDE4. [01:44] No build-prep for KDE4. [01:44] ah ok [01:44] kde4.mk also has the cmake.mk in it too. [01:45] ScottK: I have to add cmake.mk in debian/rules or only add kde4.mk ? [01:45] Only kde4.mk. [02:16] hrmm kpackagekit from jaunty universe after a refresh of package list 45 minutes ago still shows "unknown" state === JontheEchidna changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: ISO testing needed for 8.04.2 http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/kubuntu/all | e-mail Riddell for STICKERS | Feature Freeze Feb 19 - How are we doing? -> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo [03:27] DOes anyone know if EXT4 and all related tools are in for Jaunty yet? [03:27] Ext4 is in with the latest kernel, iirc [03:28] ext4 yes, all related tools, no. [03:29] Any idea how long koffice takes to build? [03:30] It needs fixoring for libpoppler3 -> 4, no more arts, and no more kdelibs-doc. [03:30] So I figured three cruft tasks piled up against one package was worth doing. [03:34] Sorry for the question...When I have to put in the package, package.install file ? [03:34] ScottK: about an hour on a dualcore [03:34] http://paste.ubuntu.com/115852/ [03:34] Lovely. [03:34] needs to create package.install ? [03:34] vorian: Thanks. [03:34] no problemo ScottK :) [03:35] lex79: for multi-binary you need install files [03:35] vorian thanks [03:35] lex79: no problemo [03:36] for this, you could use a -data package [03:36] ScottK: it takes just as long to upload it seems :) [03:37] Fortunately it's just a new revision so I don't need to upload the whole thing. [03:38] ScottK: whats missing? [03:39] rgreening: ? From what? [03:39] ScottK: Does grub support it yet for me to boot from it? (EXT4) [03:39] re; related tools for ext4 [03:39] I think so. I saw some email about a libparted update, but I haven't really tracked it closely. [03:39] I know DI supports it. [03:40] Im thinking on taking the plunge.... [03:41] * vorian wishes rgreening the best of luck :) [03:42] Without actually knowing, I'd guess it very likely that if you can catch jdong on #ubuntu-motu he'll be able to precisely tell you where we are. [03:43] are we transitioning qtcurve from kde4-style-qtcurve in jaunty? [03:43] JontheEchidna: ^^ [03:57] We'd need a MIR for qtcurve to start with, but I'm all for it. [03:57] seele: ^^^ Do you know? [04:47] ScottK, vorian: we might need a revert for bug 292576 as well before moving it [04:47] Launchpad bug 292576 in kde4-style-qtcurve "I just tried to install the package, but something broke. :(" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292576 [04:48] a|wen: That's not part of the 4.1.4 stuff. It can stand or fall separately. [04:49] weren't you talking about jaunty (as a MIR was involved)? [04:50] JontheEchidna: and thx for migrating the todo/status! [04:52] ScottK: and needs fixing in jaunty too [04:52] Ah, right. [05:01] ScottK: nope, i've no idea [05:01] OK. [05:04] seele: I've started looking at kpackagekit changes. I think I have a better handle on it now. [05:07] rgreening: ok cool [05:07] let me know how things go [05:07] sebas: thanks for that post about not using Qt 4.5 with KDE 4.2 [05:07] wasabi peeps [05:07] * seele waves at nixternal [05:08] I may have somethnig by end of day tomorrow (if all goes well) seele [05:15] ScottK: oem seems seriously broken in hardy ... choosing english+english and you want get further than the choose language step in oem-config; choosing english+german and you get through oem-config (but everything is still in english) [05:16] still no idea if it is a regression, though [05:25] ScottK: oh, we also need to verify bug 318866 before 4.1.4 can get copied (i have no printer here, so can't test) [05:25] Launchpad bug 318866 in kdeutils "printer-applet does not display when new printers get configured" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/318866 [05:28] rgreening: you pinged me yesterday about the front page, care to ellaborate so I don't have to go back in the IRC history (there are 20GBs of that) [05:28] nixternal: hey [05:29] nixternal: someone indicated you were going to look at the Konqueror start page (I believe that was it) [05:30] anyway, the items is listed on the Kubuntu TODO in the ~topic [05:30] ~topic [05:30] incorrect usage, ask for help using 'kubotu: help topic' [05:31] win7ternal <- that might be why I wasn't paying much attention to that page...my nick didn't highlight when I went to it [05:32] "get flash" link <- I would be the wrong person to add such a link since I am anti-Flash [05:43] ScottK: er, the language is changed to german, just not for kde [05:50] rgreening: there, fixed my name and set it to WIP - how do we want to do that flash link? [05:51] I think we should leave that link out and put "Use Firefox for web browsing because Konqueror sucks right now" [05:51] nixternal: Not sure. Do we have any flash experts? [05:52] nixternal: it would be nice to have a Kubuntu specific flash anim to show via an

which would force the installer to request flash to be installed [05:52] I don't [05:52] flash and konqueror is like beer fruit, they don't mix [05:53] beer and fruit [05:53] jeesh :) [05:53] nixternal: what about the artwork guys? can anyone whip up something? Maybe seele can assist in describing something nice to show [05:53] konq4 works better with flash [05:53] see, when I signed on to do the konqi front page, it was to doctor it up for Kubuntu, not add flash crap [05:54] konq might work better with flash, but its 1980s back end doesn't work well with websites [05:54] it is slow and decreped (I know I didn't spell that right) [05:55] nixternal: lol. true. no one expects you to write flash. however, writing a start page and making it part of k-d-s... just work in adding an embedded flash (we'll have to figure out how to get that piece done) [05:56] holy shit, gmail and konqueror still blows goat ass [05:56] maybe theres a utility to convert some pictures to flash. We can take some Kubuntu images and make a swf [05:57] nixternal: set browser agent to safari to get the advanced features [06:07] rgreening: that makes it even worse [06:07] lol [10:23] hi there [10:24] hi Tonio_ [10:28] hi Tonio_, back from fosdem ok? [10:29] fosdem is strange, you get these old tramps coming in and sleeping http://www.flickr.com/photos/jriddell/3263831615/ :) [10:30] Riddell: I'm sick, really sick.... fever and so on... [10:30] Riddell: that's why I slept a bit during the conferences :) and why I wasn't very talkative.... [10:31] Riddell: I'm not at work today, because of that.. [10:31] Riddell: how was the event or you ? [10:31] Tonio_ not talking? that really is an illness [10:31] Riddell: :) [10:34] Riddell: that's to be added to the broken foot... but the mind is good, that's the point [10:34] Riddell: and I'm there contributing, so everything's perfect :) [10:37] Riddell: what's your feeling about augeas ? [10:38] Riddell: it really is a great opportunity to write graphical frontends for system configuration imho [10:39] Riddell, rgreening: KDS uploaded with predefined kpackagekit settings for non automatic upgrades [10:39] hi Tonio_, Riddell && freeflying [10:40] raphink: have a warning on the "augeas" term ? :) [10:40] raphink: long time no see :) [10:44] Tonio_: it does look very interesting [10:44] Riddell: I think so too :) [10:47] Tonio_: yes [10:47] yes freeflying indeed [11:22] is there a ppa for quassel backports to hardy ? [11:34] Tonio_: Not hardy. It tried it once and it FTBFS on hardy. Someone would have to disable the KDE integration. [11:35] ScottK: hum, yeah, cdbs may also not be compatible, since no kde4.mk [11:35] ScottK: we should take care at that since many people would like to get the serveur part working on an hardy box, no ? [11:37] Tonio_: I think that's reasonable, but I'd prefer to wait for the 0.4 release to do an official backport. [11:37] hum oki :) [11:37] ScottK: also since you're there, do you have an example of working watch file for sourceforge ? [11:37] ScottK: the uscan documentation seems outdated.... [11:38] ScottK: the debian redirector gives me a wonderfull "403" error code... [11:38] ScottK: and the alternative doesn't see any file... [11:39] Tonio_: If the Debian redirector is down, it's temporary. [11:40] I'd still use that approach. [11:44] vorian: kpovmodeler is moved to multiverse, so you can upload the update now. [11:54] It'd be really handy if someone with 4.1 on Intrepid could verify Bug #318866. I don't have a local printer to test with. [11:54] Launchpad bug 318866 in kdeutils "printer-applet does not display when new printers get configured" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/318866 [11:54] a|wen: Good catch. [12:00] someone to revu this please ? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/skrooge [12:00] we had kmymoney in the repos, I think it would be nice to get that one in... === rdieter_away is now known as rdieter [12:40] Riddell: I've just asked wstephens about the PNM and networkstatus... doesn't work at the moment, and it would be nice to make it to work :) [12:40] especially for kontact and kopete [12:41] also, this is a regression we have compared to kde3 [12:45] I'd just be happy if plasmoid-network-manager worked at all [13:21] Tonio_: hey. Sry about your feeling sick. I see revu has your k3b package and it needs some attention. We'd like to get a package into the PPA as some people would like ot test ahead of time more thouroughly. And we only have days left till FF. Thoughts? [13:21] Tonio_: maybe kubuntu testing PPA? [13:21] rgreening: I can fix the packaging for the lacks in it, but there is nothing new in svn.... [13:22] rgreening: I don't know if anything will be fixed at time for FF... and if an exception could be handled on that point [13:22] rgreening: the packaging was a very first shot btw, but I'll try get it cleaned today, no pb [13:22] Tonio_: That's ok. I think we do really need ot get the package tested [13:22] rgreening: kubuntu experimental ppa right ? [13:23] Tonio_: I had no issues, but some said they did. Not sure if it was same SVN rev as I tested. [13:23] Riddell, ScottK? ^^ [13:23] which PPA [13:23] suggestion? [13:23] Tonio_: prob as good as any unless Riddell or ScottKsay otherwise [13:23] rgreening: first thing is to split the libraries in 2 for the multiverse deps [13:24] Tonio_: you da man. I really really really want to kick kde3 from the disk. :) [13:24] rgreening: let's go on the packaging :) [13:25] Tonio_: Im working a patch today for kpackagekit. To give it a more user friendly Add/Remove which only shows apps. Hopefully today anyway. [13:26] rgreening: yeah, that would be nice since the current thing is a bit hard to figure out :) [13:26] rgreening: thanks for the patching effort :) [13:26] rgreening: will that replace the + and - icons ? [13:26] Tonio_: np. I like the fact I can get my code in there :) heh [13:26] since the +- one drives me nuts :) [13:27] rgreening: "add somethign to delete", won't make sense for anyone I guess hehe :) [13:27] Riddell: doesn't work for you ? [13:27] ScottK i thought about what you said last night to use an package instead of patching source but isnt this dangerous too so u dont know what is codet inside the plasmoid maybe hehe [13:27] btw morning guys [13:28] Riddell: last PNM upload add an issue on the "create" call for new networks [13:28] Riddell: I just uploaded with a fix for that, so it may work for you toonight [13:29] going to test kde 4.2 now on xp :) [13:29] its just updating [13:30] ghostcube: I'd be very interested in the status of kmail :) [13:31] ghostcube: Both approachs have their risks. If you patch the KDE source then you hand the risk to every Kubuntu user. If you package it separately, then the only people who get it are the ones who opt-in. [13:32] Tonio_: currently it only works for me if knetworkmanager is also running [13:32] Riddell: weird... [13:32] Riddell: what I'd suggest : [13:33] Riddell: delete anything related to PNM in your kde4 wallet [13:33] Riddell: uninstall knetworkmanager [13:33] pnm works fine for me with esiting configure wep or eth [13:33] Riddell: delete .kde/share/config/knetwork* and .kde/share/apps/knetwork* [13:33] Riddell: reboot and test :) [13:34] Riddell: things were changed deeply recently, so your existing datas might cause problems [13:34] Riddell: especially in the wallet, since that part was rewritten from scratch [13:34] rgreening: I've tested with wep, wpa 1&2, no pb on my side [13:36] yup. no issues here [13:37] Riddell: update-notifier-kde 0.10 FTBFS [13:37] looking for /usr/bin/extract-messages.sh [13:38] http://qashapp.blogspot.com/2009/02/my-wife-gave-up-on-kde.html <- has everyone read this and the comments? there are some things we should look into...maybe instead of spending so much time catching up (Gap Analysis) maybe we should start looking at fixing issues...I know I have been super busy lately with personal work, but I would love to help get us back in shape [13:39] rgreening: does this mean we need a dep on pkg-kde-tools in update-notifier-kde Riddell? [13:39] in his post, only #1 can be fixed by us [13:40] nixternal: maybe we shouldn't be backporting it at all. :) [13:40] let 4.1 live there. [13:41] #2 - I have 8 cores, 16GB of ram, and 4 SAS drives in RAID 0, and it is still slow, using Ubuntu [13:41] rgreening: backporting is fine, just need to test it and fix it a bit more possibly [13:41] nixternal: I think his issues are graphics related (prob has wrong driver) [13:41] #3 - I have noticed the degredation as well wtih graphics [13:42] using Intel [13:42] nixternal: Has he open bugs for the issues? [13:42] OpenSUSE on this same laptop and Debian run very well [13:42] I doubt it [13:42] as I am sure there are already bugs for everything he described [13:42] as a matter of fact, I know there are [13:43] I have intel and my system has always been snappy. I have an older system too. [13:43] #5 - that tells me he is using NVIDIA probably [13:43] #6 - who in their right mind utilizes AWT java apps? [13:43] In fact I have Kubuntu Intrepid and Jaunty running on 3 systems with 0 issues. All intel based. [13:43] nixternal: on the positive - #4, we already made it able to disable it for eg. copy jobs [13:43] when will people realize that java sucks for desktop applications? I am a java developer and know it only belongs on the server [13:43] My parents use one and my wife the other. they'd complain about any issues. [13:44] java -> bin.Trash.execute() [13:44] rgreening: 0 issues? that is a bit hard to believe...there are a bunch of issues, some just not as noticeable and not all KDE/Kubuntu's fault either [13:44] rgreening: yes it does [13:45] java as a server app > * :) [13:45] nixternal: ok, I don't use bluetooth and use the system for Net, Main, developing and it's all Intel based. [13:46] so I have zero issues for the most common things we use as a family :) [13:46] same here [13:46] Riddell: will you update it? [13:46] you don't use Konqueror do you? :p [13:46] nixternal: Yes. I hate FF [13:46] rgreening: yes can do [13:46] Riddell: ty [13:47] the bug jam next week, I am spending 3 days working on Kubuntu bugs and I hope everyone else is as well :) [13:47] actually that is in about 2 weeks [13:48] ScottK true [13:48] Tonio_: will tell u :) [13:48] nixternal: IMHO, and that's why I never worked on SRUs, I consider this dangerous [13:48] nixternal: especially with 4.2 [13:49] nixternal: it is not the first time we broke things on a stable release, and btw, it takes a long time to work on those... [13:49] Tonio_: in Riddell's picture.. are you sleeping with a cane? [13:49] nixternal: especially since the QA performed on SRUs on the long term... [13:50] seele: yeah, I was sick, with fever, no way to sleep the night before and a broken foot :) [13:51] seele: where are the pictures ? [13:51] nixternal: for new kde versions there should be a repo, but no SRUs imho.... maybe that should be discussed in the next meeting [13:52] Tonio_: but SRU's are pretty much needed, unless we can make everything perfect prior to release ... and there is a reason why 4.2 wasn't an SRU [13:52] Tonio_: ow, broken foot [13:52] http://www.flickr.com/photos/jriddell/3263831615/ [13:52] a|wen: fixing bugs is better than regressions [13:52] Tonio_: but grave bugs needs to be fixed in the stable release [13:53] a|wen: and a 6 month dev cycle is acceptable to keep a 4.1 in place [13:53] a|wen: let's patch then :) [13:53] a|wen: do you have an example of "grave" bug that 4.2 fixed ? [13:53] a|wen: I have several examples of "grave" bugs 4.2 on intrepid added [13:54] Tonio_: 4.2 was NOT put as an SRU, and will never be [13:54] nixternal: The thing about the bluetooth errors is already fixed. [13:54] Tonio_: and that was exactly why [13:54] a|wen: true the example is bad, sorry for that [13:54] a|wen: why ? because we tested 4.1 work weeks on intrepid [13:54] a|wen: how long was 4.2 tested ? couple of hours (that's exagerated, I know, but that's for the example) [13:55] Tonio_: because 4.2 was not a point release ... the 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 has been / will be SRU'ed [13:55] a|wen: and again, was there a "grave" bug with 4.1 ? I only see features missing [13:55] nixternal: On the graphics front, Ubuntu dropped the X compiz hack that was slowing us down. A fixed package is in both my PPA and kubuntu-experimental. [13:56] a|wen: the thing is, when 4.2 is released AND packaged, people want to test, and since we cannot test as long as in the dev cycle, there are regressions [13:56] Tonio_: currently 4.1.4 has been in -proposed for 27 days [13:56] a|wen: that's a lot worse than not releasing and say "wait 3 month for the next release" [13:56] a|wen: consequences of this are a lot better [13:56] a|wen: added to this, that prevents wasting time on this, and gives a better result on the n+1 release... my opinion [13:56] Tonio_: and i'm sure ScottK can give you a nice list of bugs fixed by 4.1.3/4.1.4 [13:57] a|wen: as said, that's my personal opinion :) [13:57] ScottK: ya, that's why I said only #1 pertains to Kubuntu, the rest is Ubuntu in general [13:57] Tonio_: agreed! [13:57] a|wen: maybe this is to be considered for LTS releases only [13:57] I've in turn used 4.1.2, 4.1.3, and 4.1.4. Each one has gotten better. [13:57] Tonio_: it's completely fair ... but if you look at SRU's, comparing it to 4.2 has no relevance at all (they are indeed experimental) [13:58] a|wen: my collegues tried 4.2 on intrepid and had a lot of issues, and all of them said me "don't release backports/updates/whatever, is no QA is performed on them" [13:58] I do think we may advertise the PPA a bit too heavily and downplay it's experimental nature. [13:58] a|wen: no packages released, they wouldn't have considered that a problem [13:58] ScottK: yeah, that would be good [13:59] ScottK: when the announcment is on kubuntu.org, they considered this part of the distro [13:59] ScottK: and they expect something stable [13:59] Tonio_: When it comes to stable updates the 4.1.x updates have been heavily tested and to say otherwise is complete bullshit. [13:59] Tonio_: i agree! ... but the SRU's of 4.1.x i still support 110% [13:59] Tonio_: I'm not aware of any regressions from putting 4.1.3 in -updates. [13:59] ScottK: I said I missed the point with SRUs and was talking about 4.2/major releases [13:59] OK. [14:00] ScottK: btw, where is the QA plan ? we don't have any (a real one I mean) even with jaunty :) [14:00] ScottK: testing is different that performing real QA [14:00] Tonio_: then it seems we actually do agree ... [14:00] to me 4.2 is the best yet...from what I have seen everyone in here has done an amazing job with the resources...I know I sound like an ass when I sit here and say what I say, especially when I have been MIA for damn near a year now...I hate being useless and want to fix that... [14:01] ScottK: but that's everyone's fault (including me) and we should consider discussing a real QA/release/backport policy [14:01] I think I have gotten some what tired of packaging since that is what I tend to do quite a bit of at work, all be it CentOS/Red Hat packaging :/ [14:01] Tonio_: True, but I don't think we have the people for true QA. [14:01] ScottK: what to backport, what to test, and how can we consider something "tested" [14:01] nixternal: Then write some docs. [14:01] I am definitely tired of that [14:01] ScottK: true that, but that's something I'd like to discuss and eventually work on for a long time [14:01] ScottK: we should have a QA team btw, and advertise this [14:01] I have to write that crap all day at work now...I enjoyed it more when it was a hobby, but my job has ruined my passion for documenting [14:02] ScottK: I don't blame your work, not at all, on SRUs, backports and so on [14:02] ScottK: I just consider the team too small, and the QA process inexistant, for this things to be handled properly [14:03] ScottK: your technical capabilities and hard work on this may not be sufficiant.... personal opinion, once again [14:03] it seems the Ubuntu side has full-time QA and are working on automated tools and what not...maybe we need to approach them for some input...though automated tools don't catch everything and some people may not like them, they do tend to help with the tedious stuff [14:03] ScottK: and that's everyone's fault, including me not to do this [14:03] ScottK: we don't even have a "app by app" list of features to test [14:04] ScottK: we should write something, on the wiki, to start a real QA plan, at least [14:04] So far the experience we've had with 4.1.x SRU seems good. JontheEchidna and other triagers have been pointing me at bugs when they come up. a|wen has been doing a great job of finding patches in the KDE svn. [14:04] argh, I am going to miss the 8:50 train...must...get...ready....for...work :( [14:04] ScottK: everyone has been doing an amazing job imho, including you :) [14:04] ScottK: who had tested sieve support in kontact, it hangs the CPU to 100%, nobody knows, and nobody knows this should be tested, except from the people actually using this, like me... [14:05] True. [14:05] ScottK: who has ever tested all protocol/network in kopete ? :) etc..... [14:05] I agree it could be better, but I also think we'll never get 100% test coverage. [14:05] we should start a QA per application thing on the wiki, including all features (basic ones to start with) that should be tested before any release [14:05] I know I never did because I went with bitlbee as I didn't like GUI IM apps, though I really like Empathy in GNOME [14:06] ScottK: starting with a QA material can help creating a QA team etc... [14:06] ScottK: people in the community might want to help on that point, but how would they right now ? :) [14:06] Agreed. It's just not really my cup of tea to write that stuff. [14:06] Tonio_: I wold be interested in providing some help there, and I could even speak to the QA guy at work who has desktop app QA experience and is a KDE fan, though he has recently moved to Arch without my approval :) [14:07] and he is that French guy I was telling you about :p [14:07] nixternal: great ;) [14:07] nixternal: one good start would be to simply list key features for all important softwares (kmail/kontact, kopete, amarok etc...) [14:07] and write tables [14:07] we have another guy who has experience but it would take a lot of work for me to convince him to get on the KDE bus [14:08] something people can print and test, one item at a time etc... [14:08] right... [14:08] nixternal: I'm currently working on that subject internally at work, since we have this pb, so I can help, eventually [14:08] I will get back online in the next couple of hours and jot down some things in my TODO list...I need to hurry my ass to work now [14:08] nixternal: I'd say we even should have a complete meeting about this [14:08] +1 [14:09] bbiab [14:09] nixternal: the thing is : how to merge the testing results and analyse them.... that's not easy [14:11] ScottK: but to resume my feeling, on a single release, like intrepid, 4.1.x updates are indeed very recommended [14:11] OK. Good. [14:11] ScottK: but as long as we don't have any QA/material, releasing 4.2/3 backports is too dangerous, since people will OBVIOUSLY test, and get regressions [14:11] Now that PPAs are signed, I'm less anxious to try to stuff 4.2 into backports. [14:11] ScottK: and even if that's acceptable imho, they won't accept it :) [14:12] ScottK: better no packages that bad feeling [14:12] ScottK: as for example, everyone knows that fedora is an experimental distro [14:12] ScottK: look at what happend when they released 4.0 :) [14:12] Except Linux apparently. [14:12] Linux/Linux [14:12] argh [14:12] s on end of that word. [14:13] ScottK: not only linus, lots of users criticized kde4 because distros added it without the good warnings, QA etc... [14:13] ScottK: we have to be better on that point [14:13] ScottK: and before we are better and have the material, I would prefer not backporting suck critical things like new kde releases [14:14] ScottK: especially since both kubuntu and kd4 are 6 month release schedule... [14:14] ScottK: ask our users to wait 3 month when a new kde come out to update and get it is acceptable, don't you think ? [14:14] I think the PPA serves a valuable purpose as we do a good job of pushing bugs upstream and then they get fixed in the point release. [14:15] I think it needs to be better explained what it is. [14:15] I do think there are plenty of people who want the new KDE and they want it now. [14:15] We don't want to lose those enthusiasts. [14:15] ScottK: then they have to use fedora of gentoo :) [14:15] ScottK: +1 on that [14:16] We have always made new KDE releases available in unofficial repos. [14:16] ScottK: geeks do, not my mother [14:16] Tonio_: that is why they are in kubuntu-experimental PPA [14:16] Tonio_: Yes, but those geeks are important. Your mother isn't going to add the experimental PPA. [14:16] Tonio_: and not even in backports [14:16] ScottK: and we always had lots of complains about the stability of Kubuntu [14:17] ScottK: I'd like this to change, even if that means we have to get rid of things done in the past [14:17] does anyone know if its possible to do triple head with nvidia on kde4? ( I remember someone in here mentioning some problems) [14:17] Which is why I'm working on the point updates. [14:17] Tonio_: I would support making it clearer about what the PPA is. I would not agree to stop it. [14:17] ScottK: as I said, I've no problem on updates, I've a problem with the lack of QA [14:17] ScottK: and the lack of QA is a point at every step, including the +1 dev cycle [14:18] ScottK: do you still need kub.2 testing? [14:18] davmor2: We do. [14:18] I'll start shortly then :) [14:18] ScottK: we have different opinions, which is perfectly fine and acceptable :) [14:18] davmor2: You can see on the iso page we've gotten a good start, but help is definitely needed. [14:18] ScottK: but we seem to agree on the rationale : our QA is pure shit ! [14:18] Tonio_: Agreed. [14:19] hum, someone has to get that in the pipe.... [14:19] Tonio_, ScottK: QA is sometimes hard if you do it in your community time [14:19] I am personally egoistic and try to fix issues that bother me in the limited time I have to hack ;-) [14:19] Lure: yeah, but that's doesn't mean we should have material [14:20] Lure: this is a hard work to build, but quite easy to maintain [14:20] Lure: when major features are added, put them in the QA pipe [14:20] ScottK: I'll make a start on alt 64 as it's not had a test [14:20] Lure: the point is "how do we start ?" [14:20] davmor2: Thank you. [14:20] Lure: I'm not paid to work on this either. [14:20] We ar a small team and have a small userbase. It's pure economics. We don't have the resources to do real justice to QA and it shows. [14:21] ScottK: nobody is ;-( [14:21] I test what I can but it is a limited set of things I use the system for. [14:21] rgreening: I may disagree with you on that point, our userbase is sufficient for that [14:21] rgreening: we all are experts in at least one software in the distro [14:21] rgreening: I can write a "features list to test" for PNM and kmail with ease [14:22] probably not for quassel, but for that ScottK is the man etc.... [14:22] Tonio_: well, take into accoun that from the userbase, only a handful submit bugs regularly (if at all) and most are crap reports [14:22] rgreening: maintaining is not hard, starting from scratch is, therefore we never did [14:22] rgreening: reports concern the stable release most of the time [14:22] Tonio_: we should do what wine does. List of apps and tests to pass to say it's a good release. [14:22] I could write a test plan for quassel. I have a series of things I check for each update. I've just never written it down. [14:22] rgreening: I don't talk about bug fixing [14:23] rgreening: I'm talking about basic features we have to take care of before we do a release [14:23] rgreening: those can be listed with ease [14:23] Tonio_: I'm not disagreeing :) [14:23] rgreening: for example, we ALL are using imap for our mails, who will take care about POP support ? [14:23] rgreening: nobody [14:24] I use POP [14:24]