[00:42] <LaserJock> stgraber: anything that has a bug report
[00:42] <LaserJock> stgraber: I'm looking at getting RCbugs/milestones going
[02:44] <nubae> gosh using a belgian keyboard is like learning how to type again
[02:46] <nubae> LaserJockus... how goes?
[02:46] <nubae> damn insomnia got me up again
[02:48] <nubae> bah no one around to keep me co,pany :(
[02:57] <LaserJock> nubae!!
[02:57] <LaserJock> nubae: I've been wondering where you went
[02:58] <nubae> here i q,
[02:58] <nubae> am
[02:58] <nubae> damn stupid belgian keyboard
[02:59] <LaserJock> nubae: I'm working on moodle
[02:59] <nubae>  reallly!!!
[02:59] <nubae> u?
[02:59] <nubae> god heavens why?
[03:00] <nubae> not that I am unhqppy or qnything
[03:00] <nubae> qs u cqn see q gets replqced zith a
[03:01] <LaserJock> heh
[03:01] <LaserJock> I'm working on the moodle packaging
[03:01] <LaserJock> not moodle itself
[03:01] <nubae> aaaah
[03:01] <nubae> wow... Ill be happy bout that
[03:01] <LaserJock> there are a huge number of security vulnerabilities in our current versions
[03:02] <nubae> Ill do a little dance for u
[03:02] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not a moodle user, so my testing consists of "does it load in the browser?"
[03:02] <LaserJock> if I were to upload to a PPA would you be willing to test?
[03:03] <nubae> but of course
[03:03] <nubae> Im so heqvily involved in moodle dev, it kinda makes my stomach turn
[03:04] <LaserJock> what Ubuntu version could you test on?
[03:04] <nubae> but as u can probably guess I installed everything from source
[03:04] <nubae> dude
[03:04] <nubae> while u are qt it::: please package mahara
[03:05] <nubae> ill test on whatever u tell me, hqve a teaching conference coming in a couple weeks
[03:05] <nubae> zould be good time to test in the field
[03:06] <nubae> so whatcha think about what I mentioned yesterday
[03:07] <nubae> ogra didnt seem too thrilled
[03:07] <nubae> but the kde folkds are like 100 percent with us
[03:08] <nubae> qt first when u mentioned it I kinda was on the fence... but talking to them I got pretty convinced
[03:08] <LaserJock> well, I know what ogra was saying
[03:08] <LaserJock> we can't just drop gnome and say "we're a KDE shop now!!!"
[03:09] <nubae> its qbout undoing his work
[03:09] <LaserJock> but on the other hand we're certainly not "no KDE allowed" obviously
[03:09] <nubae> that shit happens all the time in osp
[03:09] <LaserJock> no, he pioneered a lot of it
[03:09] <LaserJock> he stuck by KDE Edu from the first
[03:09] <nubae> i know thqt
[03:10] <LaserJock> the thing is we're trying to shoot for DE neutrality
[03:10] <LaserJock> more than shifting from one to the other
[03:10] <nubae> and am the first to appreciate that... but must we start alking backwards?
[03:10] <LaserJock> how do you mean?
[03:11] <nubae> walking
[03:11] <nubae> kde is clearly now the superior plqtform
[03:11] <LaserJock> well, that's somewhat irrelevent though
[03:12] <nubae> it wasnt when ogrq did all the wonderful stuff he did
[03:12] <nubae> no it isnt
[03:12] <LaserJock> well, it quite often was better
[03:12] <LaserJock> that's why we carried KDE deps forever
[03:12] <nubae> ze need the best damn edu platform to deploy
[03:12] <nubae> this is not about devs
[03:12] <LaserJock> because KDE Edu is a world class suite of software
[03:12] <nubae> this is about educators
[03:12] <LaserJock> exactly
[03:13] <LaserJock> whether those educators choose Gnome or KDE shouldn't matter
[03:13] <nubae> but they are kde guys LaserJock
[03:13] <LaserJock> great
[03:13] <LaserJock> so edubuntu-desktop-kde should rock!
[03:13] <LaserJock> and KDE Edu will continue to rock
[03:14] <nubae> we join we become 3 ti,es ,ore capable
[03:14] <nubae> right1
[03:14] <LaserJock> no, I don't think so actually
[03:14] <nubae> but focus should be on that noz
[03:14] <nubae> now
[03:14] <LaserJock> we're a distro, a distro does inherently different things than upstreams
[03:14] <nubae> god I hate this keyboqrd
[03:15] <LaserJock> I can usually understand you :-)
[03:15] <nubae> our upstream is edu
[03:15] <LaserJock> right
[03:15] <LaserJock> of all flavors
[03:15] <nubae> zo fuck the platform
[03:15] <LaserJock> so we work with KDE, we work with gnome, we work with moodle, we work with tux4kids
[03:15] <nubae> use whats best qt the moment
[03:16] <LaserJock> well, it's not that easy though
[03:16] <nubae> and u tell me what is that?
[03:16] <nubae> in terms of guys getting involed
[03:16] <LaserJock> you can't focus down on a single DE and the be switching back-n-forth all the time
[03:16] <nubae> in terms of appps that really work?
[03:17] <LaserJock> for getting people involved, we'd certianly welcome KDE people
[03:17] <LaserJock> that doesn't mean we're KDE-only
[03:17] <nubae> ok lets take a step bqck...
[03:17] <nubae> I never meant that at all
[03:18] <nubae> but we must make it clear we are not a gnome project
[03:18] <LaserJock> well, that's what I've been doing with most of my time in Jaunty
[03:18] <nubae> and that my friend is not obvious
[03:19] <nubae> i realise
[03:19] <LaserJock> right now edubuntu-desktop-kde is equal, finally
[03:19] <nubae> but u are one man
[03:19] <LaserJock> I talked with asegio
[03:19] <LaserJock> we've made neutral app bundles
[03:19] <nubae> get the damn help from these guys thqt are itching to join
[03:19] <LaserJock> well ...
[03:19] <LaserJock> the channels have always been open
[03:20] <LaserJock> people don't step up
[03:20] <nubae> i dont belive thqt
[03:20] <LaserJock> if they want to, I'm very very happy
[03:20] <nubae> I was told i person that u guys dont communicqte
[03:20] <LaserJock> but I've made quite a few calls for help, as has sbalneav, ogra, and others in the last couple years
[03:21] <nubae> ok, to zho?
[03:21] <LaserJock> and stgraber and I are the only ones left standing
[03:21] <nubae> jeez... who
[03:21] <LaserJock> to Planet Ubuntu
[03:21] <LaserJock> edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users
[03:21] <LaserJock> any time I've talked with upstreams I've said we're more than happy to collaborate and get help
[03:21] <nubae> i will join u soon; I promise... let me get the hang of pqckqging
[03:22] <nubae> but I also like the community binding part
[03:22] <LaserJock> sure
[03:22] <LaserJock> I mean, bottom line, it takes a lot of work to keep things running
[03:22] <LaserJock> and right now there isn't anybody to do it right
[03:22] <LaserJock> so yeah, we could do better at getting people involved
[03:23] <nubae> LaserJock u are thinking inisie the box
[03:23] <LaserJock> I'm thinking in current reality
[03:23] <LaserJock> so yeah, a bit inside the box
[03:23] <LaserJock> but I'm facing Feature Freeze in 9 days
[03:23] <nubae> no; u mentioned devel and users
[03:23] <nubae> sorry that is not the edu community
[03:24] <LaserJock> people want results, but very very few want to help
[03:24] <nubae> thats not even 10%
[03:24] <LaserJock> well, more *can* help than want
[03:24] <LaserJock> I know there are a lot of well-meaning people out there that would love to get involved and help
[03:24] <nubae> so do what u can, no one will ever be ungrqteful
[03:25] <LaserJock> but it currently takes around 1 year to "create" a dev
[03:25] <nubae> but we need to grow this community
[03:25] <LaserJock> and most people just won't make it
[03:25] <nubae> big time
[03:25] <LaserJock> I totally agree
[03:25] <LaserJock> I'd like to reach out more to upstream to try to get them involved
[03:25] <LaserJock> as they already know the software
[03:25] <LaserJock> they just need the packaging bits
[03:26] <LaserJock> but a lot of them are already overloaded, and I've really had very little success with getting upstreams deeply involved
[03:26] <nubae> ok, why dont we try this for a testing period
[03:26] <nubae> let ,e be the communicqtor
[03:26] <nubae> between attrqcting talent
[03:27] <nubae> i know the technics... I know the politics
[03:27] <nubae> in fact I belive i would be more help ther than on strqight dev
[03:28] <LaserJock> well, I understand what you're saying
[03:28] <LaserJock> but what happens if we attract some people?
[03:28] <LaserJock> if say a KDE dev emails the list and says "how can I help?", what do we do?
[03:31] <nubae> isnt that any easy quetion to answer?
[03:31] <LaserJock> no, it's not
[03:31] <nubae> explqin
[03:31] <nubae> fucking keyboard
[03:31] <LaserJock> right now I'd have to say "go spend 6 months learning packaging and get back to me"
[03:32] <nubae> wait wait wait
[03:32] <nubae> their job would be to integrqte edubuntu into jde
[03:32] <nubae> kde
[03:33] <nubae> qlong zith plas,oids I mentioned yestereday
[03:34] <LaserJock> well
[03:34] <LaserJock> that's more a KDE thing
[03:35] <LaserJock> I mean, I don't see plasmoids, etc. as really a Edubuntu-specific thing
[03:35] <LaserJock> so you're talking more about people developing *for* Edubuntu, not people *developing* Edubuntu
[03:35] <LaserJock> right?
[03:36] <nubae> absoliutely
[03:36] <nubae> does the platform matter?
[03:36] <LaserJock> well
[03:37] <LaserJock> the problem is I need people actually putting Edubuntu together
[03:37] <nubae> ze trying to get ,ore users... or force the, to use mostly crqp
[03:37] <nubae> sugqr is another great example of thqt
[03:37] <LaserJock> people writing plasmoids and stuff is great
[03:37] <LaserJock> but that's a pretty upstream task
[03:38] <LaserJock> though one we can certainly play a role in
[03:38] <LaserJock> but if people write 30 new apps for Edubuntu and yet nobody is there to make sure the packaging is maintained, we're not in a good position
[03:41] <LaserJock> I'd really like to see Edubuntu expand and offer more and more to users
[03:41] <nubae> ok, maybe this is just ,y ignorance
[03:41] <LaserJock> but I think our first priority needs to be making sure that the current stuff actually works
[03:41] <nubae> isnt packagn the same for kde folks qs for gno,e folks?
[03:42] <LaserJock> no
[03:42] <nubae> hmmm
[03:42] <LaserJock> it's like two different worlds :-)
[03:42] <LaserJock> and that doesn't really matter
[03:42] <nubae> now I get u then
[03:42] <LaserJock> I don't have gnome people
[03:42] <LaserJock> it's just me for everything but LTSP
[03:42] <nubae> sorry debiqn/ubuntu
[03:43] <LaserJock> what do you mean?
[03:44] <LaserJock> is the packaging different between the two?
[03:46] <nubae> no no::: I meqn differentation between kde gnome
[03:46] <LaserJock> ok
[03:47] <LaserJock> well KDE packaging is fairly different
[03:47] <LaserJock> it's pretty well organized and standardized though
[03:47] <nubae> but cqn u guys synchro?
[03:48] <LaserJock> between Debian and Ubuntu?
[03:48] <nubae> well stupid auesstion::
[03:48] <nubae> u do already zith kdeedu
[03:48] <nubae> no kde gno,e
[03:49] <LaserJock> I don't know what you'd syncronize
[03:49] <nubae> fuck fuck fuck:::: killl me noz::: never ,qke ,e use q belgiqn keyboqrd again
[03:49] <nubae> packaging
[03:50] <LaserJock> well, they're just totally different things
[03:50] <LaserJock> the thing is with most gnome apps is they have no consistency
[03:50] <nubae> ok more simply... can u guys zork together to mqke q common structure?
[03:50] <LaserJock> no
[03:51] <LaserJock> there's just too many things going on
[03:51] <LaserJock> you'd have to coordinate a lot of people, and a lot of people will disagree
[03:51] <nubae> ok... so use packagekit
[03:51] <nubae> or s,qrt
[03:51] <nubae> smart
[03:51] <LaserJock> that doesn't help
[03:51] <nubae> zork together dammit
[03:51] <nubae> zork... funny
[03:52] <LaserJock> ok, but that doesn't change anything
[03:52] <LaserJock> gnome/kde packaging style differences is not a big deal
[03:52] <nubae> yes it does... it brings a commonly focused community togethere
[03:52] <nubae> more than one ltsp and gnome guy
[03:53] <LaserJock> well, but it really doesn't do much
[03:53] <nubae> and suddenly a bunch o f edu guys::: even getting paid for what they do
[03:53] <LaserJock> packaging is done basically on a per/app basis
[03:53] <nubae> so????
[03:53] <LaserJock> well, so I'm not sure what  you're trying to achieve
[03:54] <nubae> its community plqnning and organizing
[03:54] <LaserJock> oh, well we can do that
[03:54] <LaserJock> but we need a community
[03:54] <nubae> we do what u stqrted... an objective, mission statement
[03:55] <nubae> but one big enough where it matters ands it not just ( members at most
[03:55] <nubae> I dont wanna make ya feel vad really
[03:56] <LaserJock> well, I like the current doc ok
[03:56] <LaserJock> for now
[03:56] <nubae> I just wanna see this wonderful group of people be successful
[03:56] <LaserJock> as we grow we can grow it
[03:56] <LaserJock> but I don't know if you can make it much bigger without it being kinda useless
[03:57] <nubae> useless
[03:57] <nubae> ok? what negative ,ind set brought that on?
[03:57] <nubae> sorry, I, euro; I can be a bit blunt at times
[03:58] <LaserJock> well
[03:59] <LaserJock> what I mean is, if you paint *too* large of a misson/objective it's very difficult to get down to specifics and people aren't really very focused
[03:59] <LaserJock> you know what I mean?
[04:01] <LaserJock> nubae: btw, do you know of any good ways to get Edubuntu disks or like the Ubuntu DVD
[04:06] <nubae> how do u mean
[04:06] <nubae> physically?
[04:06] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:08] <LaserJock> I got an email from a teacher in the US who is doing a workshop for ~ 100 technology coordinators from all over the world
[04:08] <LaserJock> he's wondering how to get some CDs/DVDs to pass out
[04:09] <LaserJock> grrr, 239 open bugs and 208 unassigned
[04:10] <nubae> wai... ubuntu cds or edubuntu qddoncds?
[04:11] <LaserJock> well, he says DVDs
[04:11] <nubae> ok so must meqn the entire suite
[04:12] <nubae> well had u asked me 2 ago
[04:12] <nubae> I wass at fossdem wherer I got free cds from everyone imqginqble
[04:13] <nubae> U could hqve seriously helped
[04:13] <nubae> ill talk to riched if  see hi,
[04:13] <nubae> him
[04:14] <LaserJock> I don't know what to tell people other than to buy them online
[04:14] <nubae> dude why should gcompris go in games?
[04:15] <nubae> its totally a teacher app especialllcy with the ,onitoring tools
[04:16] <nubae> in fqct sugar is moddeling their entire teacher ,onitoring suite on it
[04:16] <LaserJock> well, because that's what it calls itself
[04:16] <LaserJock> an educational game
[04:16] <LaserJock> we basically do games == preschool
[04:17] <nubae> ok? maybz u dont need my opinion but that just confuses
[04:17] <nubae> if its edu
[04:17] <nubae> put it edu
[04:17] <LaserJock> well, it is in edu
[04:17] <LaserJock> it's just edu -> games
[04:17] <LaserJock> well
[04:17] <LaserJock> on the installer anyway
[04:17] <LaserJock> in the application menu it's split up I think
[04:18] <LaserJock> gcompris is in games and the admin tool is somewhere else, maybe Other
[04:19] <nubae> aha
[04:19] <LaserJock> if we put everything edu in Education then it gets pretty overloaded
[04:19] <nubae> not at all
[04:20] <nubae> then it looks like we hqve qn edu suite
[04:20] <LaserJock> no, but like 30 apps in there isn't going to do very well
[04:20] <nubae> we cqn subsplit them
[04:21] <LaserJock> that's what edubuntu-menus is for
[04:21] <LaserJock> which we need to finish
[04:21] <nubae> so what co,plicq-ate sg-shit?
[04:22] <LaserJock> well, we need a GUI that runs the alacarte menu editor, then fix up the results
[04:23] <nubae> or sorry are you saying iy nrrds to be done that way in the edu menu?
[04:23] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:23] <nubae> ok
[04:23] <LaserJock> we can't change the normal menu
[04:23] <LaserJock> but we can use edubuntu-menus
[04:23] <nubae> y not?
[04:24] <LaserJock> because Gnome just implements the XDG standard
[04:24] <LaserJock> and it does so with only one level of menus
[04:24] <nubae> that doesnt meqn anything to me
[04:24] <LaserJock> well, essentially it means that the Applications menu is pre-determined
[04:25] <LaserJock> unless you override it as we do with edubuntu-menus
[04:25] <nubae> y?
[04:25] <LaserJock> well, because there's a menu standard
[04:26] <LaserJock> so we have to override the standard to do anything different
[04:26] <nubae> so?
[04:26] <LaserJock> well, so our way to do that is edubuntu-menus and we haven't finished it
[04:26] <LaserJock> because we lack a GUI to allow for editing the menus
[04:26] <nubae> ok
[04:28] <LaserJock> hmm, I need to take edubuntu-desktop-kde off the .iso
[04:29] <LaserJock> at least if we want it to be self-consistent, which I think we do
[04:29] <nubae> i gotta get some sleep... but pleqse lets cntinue this conv.
[04:29] <nubae> ze do
[04:30] <nubae> u are totally correct
[04:30] <nubae> gnight
[04:34] <LaserJock> bah, why the heck is moodle installing both mysql and postgresql bits
[04:47] <LaserJock> geeze, had to track it way back to apr-util
[05:00] <beachsurfin> could someone please specify to me what type of thin clients could be used w/ edubuntu?
[05:01] <LaserJock> it sort of depends on the server I think
[05:01] <beachsurfin> wouldn't it be difficult to use blender is such a setup?
[05:01] <LaserJock> beachsurfin: you might want to try #ltsp actually
[05:01] <LaserJock> it probably would
[05:01] <LaserJock> you'd probably want to go with a fat-client setup for that
[05:01] <beachsurfin> thanks LaserJock
[05:24] <marabout> LaserJock:  OK as I want to set up a network using Ubuntu for my children so I figured that was the way to go..?
[05:24] <marabout> *Edubuntu rather
[05:25] <LaserJock> marabout: how many machines?
[05:26] <marabout> LaserJock:  I have 2-3 right now, compaq 5000US, emachine T3046, and a G3 mac tower
[05:33] <marabout> LaserJock:  any insights, tips...? or I guess it is all pretty straight forward
[05:34] <LaserJock> well, I just wonder if LTSP is going to be worthwile for you
[05:34] <LaserJock> having 1 machine to administer rather than 3 is certainly nice
[05:35] <LaserJock> but if the setup turns out to be not straightforward it might not be worth it
[05:35] <LaserJock> you can *certainly* give it a shot and see if it works out for you
[05:35] <LaserJock> and if it doesn't just go with non-LTSP installs
[05:35] <LaserJock> marabout: and if you need some LTSP help the #ltsp channel is a great resource
[05:36] <marabout> LaserJock:  Ok thanks will do. Take care
[05:37] <LaserJock> have fun
[07:13] <nubae> LaserJock pleqse take out the postgres mess from the moodle installer
[07:14] <nubae> it makes no sense and on top of it breaks
[07:20] <LaserJock> nubae: we're trying to figure that out
[07:20] <LaserJock> nubae: Debian wants to take our changes
[07:20] <LaserJock> but we need to figure out how to deal with the DBs
[07:21] <nubae> i hace so much animosity to some of these purists
[07:21] <LaserJock> well, I'm getting a lot of mixed messages here
[07:22] <LaserJock> a lot of people want mysql, a lot of people don't
[07:22] <LaserJock> since moodle can use either I don't see how we can lock people into just one
[07:22] <nubae> we STILL dnt have libabiword co,piled into abizord (./configure --enqble-libabiword) for 8 god ddamned months
[07:23] <LaserJock> welcome to my world :-)
[07:24] <nubae> dont believe that... I work in the field (moodle), its what I curre"ntly get pai for
[07:25] <nubae> only ever seen one postgres install and when they get that big, they figure out hoz to installl the,selves
[07:25] <nubae> mysal, is plenty and used by th ! deployments I currently work with
[07:26] <LaserJock> I know, but as soon as I lock into mysql I'll get all kinds of bug reports about postgresql
[07:26] <LaserJock> if we can make the choosing work, we should do it
[07:26] <LaserJock> if not, then we can talk about choosing one
[07:27] <LaserJock> if people install via edubuntu-server they'll get postgresql and it should all work ok right now
[07:27] <nubae> jeezzz fucking numbers are reveresed on begliqn keyboard... hqve to press shift plus number to get number :) 8 deps I meant
[07:28] <nubae> LaserJock fqr greater gurus thqn u hqve tried (olpc for one) and gqve up
[07:28] <nubae> tond give urself thqt headache plese
[07:29] <nubae> dont focus on the shinny bits as Martiin Langhoff is fa,ous for saying
[07:29] <LaserJock> ok, but I'm not sure I exactly have a choice here
[07:31] <nubae> y the hell not?
[07:31] <nubae> qho forces u to put postgres in the packages?
[07:31] <nubae> qnd then cause ,oodle to fail installing
[07:32] <LaserJock> well, postgresql doesn't make it fail
[07:32] <LaserJock> having 2 different DBs does
[07:32] <nubae> give q nqme qnd I`ll go beat them with my seaqel stick
[07:32] <nubae> so then take postgres out
[07:32] <LaserJock> but I think it's general policy that if a package can support multiple DBs then the packaging should as well
[07:33] <nubae> it is by fqr the most unused
[07:33] <nubae> qnd anyone wanting to use it knows how to instqll it believe me
[07:33] <nubae> no rocket science
[07:33] <nubae> Ive done it
[07:33] <nubae> qnd im not even q dev
[07:36] <LaserJock> I can talk with the Server Team and see what they think
[07:37] <LaserJock> I'm just not sure we can drop to 1 DB
[07:37] <nubae> it works like thqt zith every other distro
[07:38] <nubae> lqve the dbe in, just dont codependit
[07:38] <nubae> bt... did u get to see the litte utube video of the kids using the xos in graz
[07:38] <nubae> check my page
[07:40] <LaserJock> waht do you mean by codependent?
[07:42] <nubae> i meqn instqll mysql with moodle
[07:42] <nubae> make postgres qs q db availabke but not installed into moodle
[07:43] <nubae> no choice
[07:43]  * nubae is going to kill himself if he needs to use q belgian keyboqrd qny longer
[07:43] <LaserJock> I suppose, but if you want postgresql that means you have to have mysql installed to get moodle from apt
[07:44] <LaserJock> nubae: that video is pretty fun
[07:44] <nubae> dude... for someone who knows how to both instqll and manage postgres; unsinstalling mysql is not too hard
[07:44] <nubae> believe ,e
[07:44] <nubae> me
[07:45] <LaserJock> no, I mean they'd lose moodle as well
[07:45] <LaserJock> so the options are:
[07:45] <nubae> first deployment in Europe!
[07:45] <LaserJock> 1) mysql + our moodle
[07:45] <nubae> no why
[07:45] <nubae> right
[07:45] <LaserJock> 2) postgresql + mysql + our moodle
[07:45] <nubae> no
[07:45] <LaserJock> 3) postgresql + not our moodle
[07:46] <nubae> that doesnt and will nevver zork
[07:46] <nubae> option 3
[07:46] <nubae> option 1 as defqult
[07:46] <LaserJock> if mysql is a dep then if you remove it you remove moodle
[07:47] <nubae> if u qre using moodle
[07:47] <LaserJock> so people are stuck in one of those 3 options
[07:47] <nubae> its highly unlikely ud be re,oving ,ysql
[07:47] <nubae> give people some credit
[07:47] <LaserJock> why?
[07:47] <nubae> cquse they knoz the 2 are connected
[07:47] <LaserJock> I mean, that's exactly what I'd do
[07:47] <nubae> qnd if they are postgres guys
[07:48] <LaserJock> so I wouldn't think it'd be *that* uncommon of a case
[07:48] <nubae> they knoz how to fix q postgres install in secs
[07:48] <LaserJock> ok, but that's not my point
[07:48] <LaserJock> installing postgresql is not the issue, it's moodle
[07:49] <nubae> ok what is?
[07:49] <nubae> yes it instqlls with the default server mysql
[07:49] <LaserJock> if I wanted to use postgresql I'm stuck with option 2 or 3
[07:49] <LaserJock> and I suspect people mostly don't want 2)
[07:50] <nubae> no::: then u usually  q highly trqined experience ad,in zho zould knoz in seconds hoz to uninstqll mysql qnd then postgres
[07:50] <LaserJock> so that leaves people with not installing moodle from the archives
[07:51] <nubae> there is q MASSIVE difference between the knowledge level of q postrgreser qnd and a mysqlr
[07:51] <LaserJock> but not in terms of just installing moodle
[07:51] <nubae> postgres is the oracle of the linux world
[07:51] <LaserJock> I can just as easily choose one or the other, no diff
[07:51] <nubae> its not needed
[07:51] <LaserJock> other than a lot of people I know like postgres better
[07:51] <LaserJock> so I usually go that route
[07:52] <nubae> it causes confusion and conflicts
[07:52] <LaserJock> right
[07:52] <nubae> its teachers installing this stuff
[07:52] <LaserJock> yep
[07:52] <nubae> of course they do, they qre devs
[07:52] <nubae> co talk to some teachers and ,mention posgres whatch their reaction
[07:53] <LaserJock> ok, but that doesn't really matter
[07:53] <LaserJock> mention mysql and you'll get a similar reaction
[07:53] <nubae> yes it does::: we want ,ore educqtors using our software
[07:54] <nubae> ze dont want to ,ake it co,plex and i,pôssible to install
[07:54] <nubae> no u zon
[07:54] <nubae> wont
[07:54] <nubae> educqtors knoz wat mysql is
[07:54] <nubae> cuqse its used in everything
[07:54] <nubae> zithin moodle it should be possible; but a coice mqdfe by qn qdmin
[07:55] <nubae> that make sense?
[07:56] <LaserJock> right
[07:56] <LaserJock> but my problem is if say the IT staff say they want postgresql
[07:56] <LaserJock> then the person can't use moodle from ubuntu
[07:56] <nubae> then let them go ahead and do it
[07:56] <nubae> its like ' lines of bqsh
[07:56] <nubae> zhere is the issue?
[07:57] <nubae> thats not true
[07:57] <LaserJock> the issue is, the point of packaging this stuff is so that users can install it
[07:57] <nubae> postgres exists qs q seperqte pqckqge
[07:57] <LaserJock> I know that
[07:57] <nubae> users!
[07:57] <LaserJock> but if moodle depends on mysql then they're screwed
[07:57] <nubae> admins instqll postgres
[07:58] <nubae> users install the base
[07:58] <LaserJock> users install it as well
[07:58] <nubae> instqll what as well postgres?
[07:58] <nubae> never
[07:58] <LaserJock> they are now!
[07:59] <nubae> qt least ive never seen it
[07:59] <LaserJock> we default to postgresql
[07:59] <LaserJock> so quite a few people are installing it
[07:59] <nubae> which doesnt zork my friend
[07:59] <LaserJock> postgresql works just fine
[07:59] <nubae> i have q how to on my zebsite to prove it
[08:00] <nubae> not zithin the moodle instqller
[08:00] <LaserJock> how do you mean?
[08:01] <nubae> go qheqd qnd try install moodle right now
[08:01] <nubae> see what i mean
[08:03] <nubae> the postgres part fails
[08:04] <nubae> ive done it at least 5 times
[08:04] <nubae> same result
[08:05] <nubae> unless something changed of course, but I severely doubt it
[08:06] <LaserJock> ah right
[08:06] <LaserJock> I've got a pile of bug reports for that
[08:06] <nubae> hmmmm
[08:07] <LaserJock> but that's a problem with moodle's packaging I'm pretty sure
[08:07] <LaserJock> not postgresql
[08:07] <nubae> so what is the easizst most praxctical solution
[08:07] <nubae> right
[08:07] <nubae> take the ,other fucker out
[08:08] <LaserJock> dude, I realize what you're saying
[08:08] <LaserJock> I don't like having to worry about this stuff
[08:08] <LaserJock> but I don't always get to do it the easy way
[08:08] <nubae> let experienced admins choose it when they need it (1000+° users
[08:09] <LaserJock> I'll be talking to Debian and the Server Team about it
[08:09] <nubae> ok
[08:09] <LaserJock> Debian was OK with using postgresql
[08:09] <nubae> cool
[08:09] <nubae> fuck debiqn in this cae
[08:09] <LaserJock> but I'll double check
[08:09] <nubae> they screwed up enough shit alreqdy
[08:10] <LaserJock> well, they've really stepped up with the new maintainers
[08:10] <LaserJock> who include a moodle developer
[08:10] <nubae> for moodle really?
[08:10] <nubae> then y u fixing the issue?
[08:11] <nubae> its not a ubuntu bug
[08:11] <LaserJock> because it needs to be done now
[08:11] <LaserJock> well, it is, sorta
[08:11] <LaserJock> we totally redid the debconf stuff
[08:11] <nubae> yeah, I gqvee u workable solution
[08:12] <LaserJock> well, it's not exactly an easy solution
[08:12] <LaserJock> it's not bad, but not trivial either
[08:12] <nubae> we do not need to 2 dbs for moodle
[08:13] <nubae> ze need the most common zorkable one
[08:13] <LaserJock> well, that's not exactly the traditional way we do things
[08:13] <nubae> k enough nbeed to get breqkfqst, its 9 here
[08:13] <LaserJock> but it may need to happen in this case
[08:13] <LaserJock> I need to get to bed
[08:14] <nubae> do it
[08:14] <nubae> sleep my good friend
[08:14] <LaserJock> I'll keep poking people about it though
[08:14] <LaserJock> we'll either fix it up or go with 1
[08:14] <LaserJock> the current situation isn't very good
[08:14] <nubae> no it sucks
[08:15] <nubae> no one installs from repos
[08:15] <nubae> thqt is a big no no
[08:16] <LaserJock> night
[08:16] <nubae> ok sleep well
[09:29] <Nubae-laptop> alkisg: u there?
[09:41] <alkisg> Nubae-laptop: yup
[09:41] <alkisg> (classroom break :P)
[18:40] <LaserJock> nubae: I talked with one of the Debian moodle maintainers
[18:41] <LaserJock> nubae: they suggested that maybe dbconfig-common could help us out
[19:22] <Ahmuck> does ubuntu ltsp have a admin management user/console?
[19:22] <Ahmuck> outside of sudo?
[20:01] <Lns> Ahmuck: what do you mean admin management user/console?
[20:01] <Ahmuck> outside of sudo.  like jr-admin
[20:01] <Ahmuck> for user add, passwd, vbox managment, etc.
[20:05] <ogra> since you do all that on a normal ubuntu machine, you use System->Administration usually
[20:06] <ogra> vbox brings its own interface no need to duplicate that
[20:07] <Ahmuck> system-admin usualy requires sudo access ?
[20:19] <flyingsquirrel32> How do I modify my dhcp.conf to make my LTSP install work with a single nic?
[20:20] <ogra> if your NIC IP matches the network defined in the file you dont need to modify it at all
[20:21] <ogra> dont forget that ubuntu ltsp uses /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf though
[20:23] <LaserJock> ogra: somehow I've managed to become part of the moodle maintainers in Debian ;-)
[20:23] <ogra> wohoo
[20:23] <LaserJock> ogra: they're really making a lot of improvements and they want to work with Ubuntu quite a bit
[20:23] <ogra> cool !
[20:23] <LaserJock> they were even linking up CVEs in LP, etc.
[20:24] <ogra> i wonder if we should move moodle out of main though
[20:24] <LaserJock> I wonder
[20:24] <LaserJock> hmm
[20:24] <ogra> that would loosen the deps
[20:24] <LaserJock> we could make edubuntu-server be in Universe
[20:24] <LaserJock> not worry about it on the CD
[20:24] <ogra> postgres is the main DB because its in main
[20:24] <LaserJock> mysql is in Main as well though isn't it?
[20:25] <ogra> though there was a contract about e-s at some point
[20:25] <ogra> yes, it wasnt when moodle came in though
[20:25] <LaserJock> ah
[20:25] <ogra> and postgres was the supported DB
[20:25] <LaserJock> well, Debian suggested looking into dbconfig-common
[20:25] <LaserJock> which is in Main
[20:25] <ogra> right
[20:26] <LaserJock> I think the big problem is the embedded libraries
[20:26] <ogra> probably best is to talk to the server team to ask them what they suggest
[20:26] <LaserJock> it's sort of weird, but I think getting all the deps in Main might be pretty hard
[20:26] <ogra> is there still so much ?
[20:26] <LaserJock> quite a few, but a lot of the packaged ones are in Universe
[20:26] <ogra> shouldnt be
[20:27] <LaserJock> I filed a MIR for smarty
[20:27] <LaserJock> but yui would require javascript-common and wwwconfig-common
[20:27] <LaserJock> not sure about the others yet
[20:27] <ogra> they were in main already, just make sure you follow an advice of the security team to have them split out
[20:27] <ogra> and that it was our initiative that convinced upstream
[20:27] <ogra> so we have a responsibility imho
[20:27] <LaserJock> well, the problem in some cases is that the packaged versions have deps we don't want
[20:27] <LaserJock> in Main anyway
[20:28] <ogra> wwwconfig-common is a nono
[20:28] <LaserJock> even though the embedded version doesn't require them
[20:28] <ogra> that needs to be worked around
[20:28] <LaserJock> right, just not something I'm going to do in a weekend ;-)
[20:28] <ogra> no idea about javascript-common, its the first time i see it
[20:28] <LaserJock> I've seen it a few times
[20:28] <ogra> our package shouldnt have any deps on wwwconfig-common
[20:28] <ogra> since it entered main
[20:29] <LaserJock> I know
[20:29] <LaserJock> and it doesn't
[20:29] <ogra> right, thats a delta we always carried
[20:29] <LaserJock> the problem is that the Debian-packaged version of the embedded libs *do* dep on it
[20:30] <ogra> hmm
[20:30] <LaserJock> so the concern is tracking down all the maintainers for the split out libs
[20:30] <LaserJock> and making sure they're not using wwwconfig-common or whatever else would cause problems
[20:31] <LaserJock> so if we could drop edubunt-server and moodle to Universe for a while until we get that all figured out
[20:31] <LaserJock> we could also include some other good apps like mahara
[20:33] <LaserJock> I don't know if dropping it from Main would cause any issues for Canonical or not
[20:44] <ogra> supportability
[21:06] <LaserJock> ogra: my plan regarding embedded libs was to just do what I can and keep the internal copies of the ones I can get into Main for now
[21:07] <LaserJock> for right now only smarty and yui have been split out by Debian
[21:07] <LaserJock> 1 I can get into Main, the other not right now
[21:07] <ogra> yeah, sounds like a good plan
[21:08] <LaserJock> for Jaunty+1 we can take another look
[21:09] <LaserJock> I told the Debian maintainers that we don't want wwwconfig-common
[21:09] <LaserJock> and they said they'd looked over our changes to moodle and were ok with them
[21:09] <LaserJock> so I'm hoping to have by Alpha 5 a almost completly syncable moodle
[21:12] <ogra> cool
[21:39] <flyingsquirrel32> ogra: Thanks for the /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf tip. That explains things...
[21:43] <Ahmuck> back
[22:42] <paulgm> Is there an edubuntu livecd?  I can't find it anywhere on the site, only an addon CD for an existing ubuntu
[22:53] <LaserJock> paulgm: no, there isn't a livecd
[22:53] <LaserJock> paulgm: it wouldn't nearly fit
[23:11] <paulgm> That's a shame.  I'd like to show this to a local library that has asked me to sort out the group of PCs they let kids play around on.
[23:11] <paulgm> No chance of getting it on a DVD either?
[23:11] <LaserJock> well, I'm looking at that right now
[23:12] <LaserJock> the edu stuff is on the DVD
[23:12] <LaserJock> but it's not "installed" in the Live part
[23:12] <LaserJock> I'm trying to do it to see if it works right now
[23:13] <LaserJock> darn, ran out of RAM
[23:14] <LaserJock> paulgm: I think it'd work if you have enough RAM to load the stuff in
[23:14] <LaserJock> paulgm: you can load the DVD, then install the Edu stuff you want
[23:16] <LaserJock> paulgm: another option, if you're up for it, would be to make your own Live disk using something like Ubuntu Customization Kit (UCK)
[23:19] <LaserJock> paulgm: we just don't have the resources to maintain a DVD on our own right now and the CD doesn't have nearly enough space for all the educational apps
[23:21] <paulgm> Sure, I understand.  I hadn't heard about the Ubuntu Construction Kit - I'll go have a play and see what I can come up with.
[23:22] <paulgm> Thanks for the help :)
[23:22] <LaserJock> paulgm: no problem
[23:28] <loic-m_> paulgm: you could also install first it on a usb key or an external harddrive (provided the computer support booting on USB devices, or else you swap the hd)
[23:31] <LaserJock> or you can bring in a laptop
[23:48] <flyingsquirrel32> How can I add screen resolutions to my ltsp client?