[00:42] stgraber: anything that has a bug report [00:42] stgraber: I'm looking at getting RCbugs/milestones going [02:44] gosh using a belgian keyboard is like learning how to type again [02:46] LaserJockus... how goes? [02:46] damn insomnia got me up again [02:48] bah no one around to keep me co,pany :( [02:57] nubae!! [02:57] nubae: I've been wondering where you went [02:58] here i q, [02:58] am [02:58] damn stupid belgian keyboard [02:59] nubae: I'm working on moodle [02:59] reallly!!! [02:59] u? [02:59] god heavens why? [03:00] not that I am unhqppy or qnything [03:00] qs u cqn see q gets replqced zith a [03:01] heh [03:01] I'm working on the moodle packaging [03:01] not moodle itself [03:01] aaaah [03:01] wow... Ill be happy bout that [03:01] there are a huge number of security vulnerabilities in our current versions [03:02] Ill do a little dance for u [03:02] anyway, I'm not a moodle user, so my testing consists of "does it load in the browser?" [03:02] if I were to upload to a PPA would you be willing to test? [03:03] but of course [03:03] Im so heqvily involved in moodle dev, it kinda makes my stomach turn [03:04] what Ubuntu version could you test on? [03:04] but as u can probably guess I installed everything from source [03:04] dude [03:04] while u are qt it::: please package mahara [03:05] ill test on whatever u tell me, hqve a teaching conference coming in a couple weeks [03:05] zould be good time to test in the field [03:06] so whatcha think about what I mentioned yesterday [03:07] ogra didnt seem too thrilled [03:07] but the kde folkds are like 100 percent with us [03:08] qt first when u mentioned it I kinda was on the fence... but talking to them I got pretty convinced [03:08] well, I know what ogra was saying [03:08] we can't just drop gnome and say "we're a KDE shop now!!!" [03:09] its qbout undoing his work [03:09] but on the other hand we're certainly not "no KDE allowed" obviously [03:09] that shit happens all the time in osp [03:09] no, he pioneered a lot of it [03:09] he stuck by KDE Edu from the first [03:09] i know thqt [03:10] the thing is we're trying to shoot for DE neutrality [03:10] more than shifting from one to the other [03:10] and am the first to appreciate that... but must we start alking backwards? [03:10] how do you mean? [03:11] walking [03:11] kde is clearly now the superior plqtform [03:11] well, that's somewhat irrelevent though [03:12] it wasnt when ogrq did all the wonderful stuff he did [03:12] no it isnt [03:12] well, it quite often was better [03:12] that's why we carried KDE deps forever [03:12] ze need the best damn edu platform to deploy [03:12] this is not about devs [03:12] because KDE Edu is a world class suite of software [03:12] this is about educators [03:12] exactly [03:13] whether those educators choose Gnome or KDE shouldn't matter [03:13] but they are kde guys LaserJock [03:13] great [03:13] so edubuntu-desktop-kde should rock! [03:13] and KDE Edu will continue to rock [03:14] we join we become 3 ti,es ,ore capable [03:14] right1 [03:14] no, I don't think so actually [03:14] but focus should be on that noz [03:14] now [03:14] we're a distro, a distro does inherently different things than upstreams [03:14] god I hate this keyboqrd [03:15] I can usually understand you :-) [03:15] our upstream is edu [03:15] right [03:15] of all flavors [03:15] zo fuck the platform [03:15] so we work with KDE, we work with gnome, we work with moodle, we work with tux4kids [03:15] use whats best qt the moment [03:16] well, it's not that easy though [03:16] and u tell me what is that? [03:16] in terms of guys getting involed [03:16] you can't focus down on a single DE and the be switching back-n-forth all the time [03:16] in terms of appps that really work? [03:17] for getting people involved, we'd certianly welcome KDE people [03:17] that doesn't mean we're KDE-only [03:17] ok lets take a step bqck... [03:17] I never meant that at all [03:18] but we must make it clear we are not a gnome project [03:18] well, that's what I've been doing with most of my time in Jaunty [03:18] and that my friend is not obvious [03:19] i realise [03:19] right now edubuntu-desktop-kde is equal, finally [03:19] but u are one man [03:19] I talked with asegio [03:19] we've made neutral app bundles [03:19] get the damn help from these guys thqt are itching to join [03:19] well ... [03:19] the channels have always been open [03:20] people don't step up [03:20] i dont belive thqt [03:20] if they want to, I'm very very happy [03:20] I was told i person that u guys dont communicqte [03:20] but I've made quite a few calls for help, as has sbalneav, ogra, and others in the last couple years [03:21] ok, to zho? [03:21] and stgraber and I are the only ones left standing [03:21] jeez... who [03:21] to Planet Ubuntu [03:21] edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users [03:21] any time I've talked with upstreams I've said we're more than happy to collaborate and get help [03:21] i will join u soon; I promise... let me get the hang of pqckqging [03:22] but I also like the community binding part [03:22] sure [03:22] I mean, bottom line, it takes a lot of work to keep things running [03:22] and right now there isn't anybody to do it right [03:22] so yeah, we could do better at getting people involved [03:23] LaserJock u are thinking inisie the box [03:23] I'm thinking in current reality [03:23] so yeah, a bit inside the box [03:23] but I'm facing Feature Freeze in 9 days [03:23] no; u mentioned devel and users [03:23] sorry that is not the edu community [03:24] people want results, but very very few want to help [03:24] thats not even 10% [03:24] well, more *can* help than want [03:24] I know there are a lot of well-meaning people out there that would love to get involved and help [03:24] so do what u can, no one will ever be ungrqteful [03:25] but it currently takes around 1 year to "create" a dev [03:25] but we need to grow this community [03:25] and most people just won't make it [03:25] big time [03:25] I totally agree [03:25] I'd like to reach out more to upstream to try to get them involved [03:25] as they already know the software [03:25] they just need the packaging bits [03:26] but a lot of them are already overloaded, and I've really had very little success with getting upstreams deeply involved [03:26] ok, why dont we try this for a testing period [03:26] let ,e be the communicqtor [03:26] between attrqcting talent [03:27] i know the technics... I know the politics [03:27] in fact I belive i would be more help ther than on strqight dev [03:28] well, I understand what you're saying [03:28] but what happens if we attract some people? [03:28] if say a KDE dev emails the list and says "how can I help?", what do we do? [03:31] isnt that any easy quetion to answer? [03:31] no, it's not [03:31] explqin [03:31] fucking keyboard [03:31] right now I'd have to say "go spend 6 months learning packaging and get back to me" [03:32] wait wait wait [03:32] their job would be to integrqte edubuntu into jde [03:32] kde [03:33] qlong zith plas,oids I mentioned yestereday [03:34] well [03:34] that's more a KDE thing [03:35] I mean, I don't see plasmoids, etc. as really a Edubuntu-specific thing [03:35] so you're talking more about people developing *for* Edubuntu, not people *developing* Edubuntu [03:35] right? [03:36] absoliutely [03:36] does the platform matter? [03:36] well [03:37] the problem is I need people actually putting Edubuntu together [03:37] ze trying to get ,ore users... or force the, to use mostly crqp [03:37] sugqr is another great example of thqt [03:37] people writing plasmoids and stuff is great [03:37] but that's a pretty upstream task [03:38] though one we can certainly play a role in [03:38] but if people write 30 new apps for Edubuntu and yet nobody is there to make sure the packaging is maintained, we're not in a good position [03:41] I'd really like to see Edubuntu expand and offer more and more to users [03:41] ok, maybe this is just ,y ignorance [03:41] but I think our first priority needs to be making sure that the current stuff actually works [03:41] isnt packagn the same for kde folks qs for gno,e folks? [03:42] no [03:42] hmmm [03:42] it's like two different worlds :-) [03:42] and that doesn't really matter [03:42] now I get u then [03:42] I don't have gnome people [03:42] it's just me for everything but LTSP [03:42] sorry debiqn/ubuntu [03:43] what do you mean? [03:44] is the packaging different between the two? [03:46] no no::: I meqn differentation between kde gnome [03:46] ok [03:47] well KDE packaging is fairly different [03:47] it's pretty well organized and standardized though [03:47] but cqn u guys synchro? [03:48] between Debian and Ubuntu? [03:48] well stupid auesstion:: [03:48] u do already zith kdeedu [03:48] no kde gno,e [03:49] I don't know what you'd syncronize [03:49] fuck fuck fuck:::: killl me noz::: never ,qke ,e use q belgiqn keyboqrd again [03:49] packaging [03:50] well, they're just totally different things [03:50] the thing is with most gnome apps is they have no consistency [03:50] ok more simply... can u guys zork together to mqke q common structure? [03:50] no [03:51] there's just too many things going on [03:51] you'd have to coordinate a lot of people, and a lot of people will disagree [03:51] ok... so use packagekit [03:51] or s,qrt [03:51] smart [03:51] that doesn't help [03:51] zork together dammit [03:51] zork... funny [03:52] ok, but that doesn't change anything [03:52] gnome/kde packaging style differences is not a big deal [03:52] yes it does... it brings a commonly focused community togethere [03:52] more than one ltsp and gnome guy [03:53] well, but it really doesn't do much [03:53] and suddenly a bunch o f edu guys::: even getting paid for what they do [03:53] packaging is done basically on a per/app basis [03:53] so???? [03:53] well, so I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve [03:54] its community plqnning and organizing [03:54] oh, well we can do that [03:54] but we need a community [03:54] we do what u stqrted... an objective, mission statement [03:55] but one big enough where it matters ands it not just ( members at most [03:55] I dont wanna make ya feel vad really [03:56] well, I like the current doc ok [03:56] for now [03:56] I just wanna see this wonderful group of people be successful [03:56] as we grow we can grow it [03:56] but I don't know if you can make it much bigger without it being kinda useless [03:57] useless [03:57] ok? what negative ,ind set brought that on? [03:57] sorry, I, euro; I can be a bit blunt at times [03:58] well [03:59] what I mean is, if you paint *too* large of a misson/objective it's very difficult to get down to specifics and people aren't really very focused [03:59] you know what I mean? [04:01] nubae: btw, do you know of any good ways to get Edubuntu disks or like the Ubuntu DVD [04:06] how do u mean [04:06] physically? [04:06] yeah [04:08] I got an email from a teacher in the US who is doing a workshop for ~ 100 technology coordinators from all over the world [04:08] he's wondering how to get some CDs/DVDs to pass out [04:09] grrr, 239 open bugs and 208 unassigned [04:10] wai... ubuntu cds or edubuntu qddoncds? [04:11] well, he says DVDs [04:11] ok so must meqn the entire suite [04:12] well had u asked me 2 ago [04:12] I wass at fossdem wherer I got free cds from everyone imqginqble [04:13] U could hqve seriously helped [04:13] ill talk to riched if see hi, [04:13] him [04:14] I don't know what to tell people other than to buy them online [04:14] dude why should gcompris go in games? [04:15] its totally a teacher app especialllcy with the ,onitoring tools [04:16] in fqct sugar is moddeling their entire teacher ,onitoring suite on it [04:16] well, because that's what it calls itself [04:16] an educational game [04:16] we basically do games == preschool [04:17] ok? maybz u dont need my opinion but that just confuses [04:17] if its edu [04:17] put it edu [04:17] well, it is in edu [04:17] it's just edu -> games [04:17] well [04:17] on the installer anyway [04:17] in the application menu it's split up I think [04:18] gcompris is in games and the admin tool is somewhere else, maybe Other [04:19] aha [04:19] if we put everything edu in Education then it gets pretty overloaded [04:19] not at all [04:20] then it looks like we hqve qn edu suite [04:20] no, but like 30 apps in there isn't going to do very well [04:20] we cqn subsplit them [04:21] that's what edubuntu-menus is for [04:21] which we need to finish [04:21] so what co,plicq-ate sg-shit? [04:22] well, we need a GUI that runs the alacarte menu editor, then fix up the results [04:23] or sorry are you saying iy nrrds to be done that way in the edu menu? [04:23] yeah [04:23] ok [04:23] we can't change the normal menu [04:23] but we can use edubuntu-menus [04:23] y not? [04:24] because Gnome just implements the XDG standard [04:24] and it does so with only one level of menus [04:24] that doesnt meqn anything to me [04:24] well, essentially it means that the Applications menu is pre-determined [04:25] unless you override it as we do with edubuntu-menus [04:25] y? [04:25] well, because there's a menu standard [04:26] so we have to override the standard to do anything different [04:26] so? [04:26] well, so our way to do that is edubuntu-menus and we haven't finished it [04:26] because we lack a GUI to allow for editing the menus [04:26] ok [04:28] hmm, I need to take edubuntu-desktop-kde off the .iso [04:29] at least if we want it to be self-consistent, which I think we do [04:29] i gotta get some sleep... but pleqse lets cntinue this conv. [04:29] ze do [04:30] u are totally correct [04:30] gnight [04:34] bah, why the heck is moodle installing both mysql and postgresql bits [04:47] geeze, had to track it way back to apr-util [05:00] could someone please specify to me what type of thin clients could be used w/ edubuntu? [05:01] it sort of depends on the server I think [05:01] wouldn't it be difficult to use blender is such a setup? [05:01] beachsurfin: you might want to try #ltsp actually [05:01] it probably would [05:01] you'd probably want to go with a fat-client setup for that [05:01] thanks LaserJock [05:24] LaserJock: OK as I want to set up a network using Ubuntu for my children so I figured that was the way to go..? [05:24] *Edubuntu rather [05:25] marabout: how many machines? [05:26] LaserJock: I have 2-3 right now, compaq 5000US, emachine T3046, and a G3 mac tower [05:33] LaserJock: any insights, tips...? or I guess it is all pretty straight forward [05:34] well, I just wonder if LTSP is going to be worthwile for you [05:34] having 1 machine to administer rather than 3 is certainly nice [05:35] but if the setup turns out to be not straightforward it might not be worth it [05:35] you can *certainly* give it a shot and see if it works out for you [05:35] and if it doesn't just go with non-LTSP installs [05:35] marabout: and if you need some LTSP help the #ltsp channel is a great resource [05:36] LaserJock: Ok thanks will do. Take care [05:37] have fun [07:13] LaserJock pleqse take out the postgres mess from the moodle installer [07:14] it makes no sense and on top of it breaks [07:20] nubae: we're trying to figure that out [07:20] nubae: Debian wants to take our changes [07:20] but we need to figure out how to deal with the DBs [07:21] i hace so much animosity to some of these purists [07:21] well, I'm getting a lot of mixed messages here [07:22] a lot of people want mysql, a lot of people don't [07:22] since moodle can use either I don't see how we can lock people into just one [07:22] we STILL dnt have libabiword co,piled into abizord (./configure --enqble-libabiword) for 8 god ddamned months [07:23] welcome to my world :-) [07:24] dont believe that... I work in the field (moodle), its what I curre"ntly get pai for [07:25] only ever seen one postgres install and when they get that big, they figure out hoz to installl the,selves [07:25] mysal, is plenty and used by th ! deployments I currently work with [07:26] I know, but as soon as I lock into mysql I'll get all kinds of bug reports about postgresql [07:26] if we can make the choosing work, we should do it [07:26] if not, then we can talk about choosing one [07:27] if people install via edubuntu-server they'll get postgresql and it should all work ok right now [07:27] jeezzz fucking numbers are reveresed on begliqn keyboard... hqve to press shift plus number to get number :) 8 deps I meant [07:28] LaserJock fqr greater gurus thqn u hqve tried (olpc for one) and gqve up [07:28] tond give urself thqt headache plese [07:29] dont focus on the shinny bits as Martiin Langhoff is fa,ous for saying [07:29] ok, but I'm not sure I exactly have a choice here [07:31] y the hell not? [07:31] qho forces u to put postgres in the packages? [07:31] qnd then cause ,oodle to fail installing [07:32] well, postgresql doesn't make it fail [07:32] having 2 different DBs does [07:32] give q nqme qnd I`ll go beat them with my seaqel stick [07:32] so then take postgres out [07:32] but I think it's general policy that if a package can support multiple DBs then the packaging should as well [07:33] it is by fqr the most unused [07:33] qnd anyone wanting to use it knows how to instqll it believe me [07:33] no rocket science [07:33] Ive done it [07:33] qnd im not even q dev [07:36] I can talk with the Server Team and see what they think [07:37] I'm just not sure we can drop to 1 DB [07:37] it works like thqt zith every other distro [07:38] lqve the dbe in, just dont codependit [07:38] bt... did u get to see the litte utube video of the kids using the xos in graz [07:38] check my page [07:40] waht do you mean by codependent? [07:42] i meqn instqll mysql with moodle [07:42] make postgres qs q db availabke but not installed into moodle [07:43] no choice [07:43] * nubae is going to kill himself if he needs to use q belgian keyboqrd qny longer [07:43] I suppose, but if you want postgresql that means you have to have mysql installed to get moodle from apt [07:44] nubae: that video is pretty fun [07:44] dude... for someone who knows how to both instqll and manage postgres; unsinstalling mysql is not too hard [07:44] believe ,e [07:44] me [07:45] no, I mean they'd lose moodle as well [07:45] so the options are: [07:45] first deployment in Europe! [07:45] 1) mysql + our moodle [07:45] no why [07:45] right [07:45] 2) postgresql + mysql + our moodle [07:45] no [07:45] 3) postgresql + not our moodle [07:46] that doesnt and will nevver zork [07:46] option 3 [07:46] option 1 as defqult [07:46] if mysql is a dep then if you remove it you remove moodle [07:47] if u qre using moodle [07:47] so people are stuck in one of those 3 options [07:47] its highly unlikely ud be re,oving ,ysql [07:47] give people some credit [07:47] why? [07:47] cquse they knoz the 2 are connected [07:47] I mean, that's exactly what I'd do [07:47] qnd if they are postgres guys [07:48] so I wouldn't think it'd be *that* uncommon of a case [07:48] they knoz how to fix q postgres install in secs [07:48] ok, but that's not my point [07:48] installing postgresql is not the issue, it's moodle [07:49] ok what is? [07:49] yes it instqlls with the default server mysql [07:49] if I wanted to use postgresql I'm stuck with option 2 or 3 [07:49]