/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/02/13/#edubuntu.txt

nubae2no, no motus00:00
LaserJockI found the archive of the email00:00
nubae2enjoy :-)00:00
LaserJockmy point is he doesn't have to do anything00:00
nubae2hes the only package manager00:00
LaserJockthat doesn't *matter*00:00
LaserJockthat's what I'm trying to get at00:00
LaserJockhe's irrelevant00:01
nubae2how would we then get our packages into debian?00:01
LaserJockyou *don't*00:01
nubae2right, thats a fork00:01
LaserJock*no*00:01
nubae2ok, maybe I dont get the politics of this then...00:01
LaserJockyou can work in the Debian git repo in a 0.84 branch00:02
LaserJockand *nothing* is uploaded to Debian00:02
LaserJockUbuntu just takes the git branch and uploads to Ubuntu00:02
LaserJocklater on when Jonas decides he wants to upload 0.84 to Debian he can do that00:02
LaserJockbut it's the same team, no forking00:02
LaserJockit's the same git, etc.00:02
nubae2well, Jonas will do his thing00:03
nubae2and we will do ours00:03
nubae2so who knows what happens later on down the line00:03
LaserJockok, well whatever, I'll be quiet :-)00:03
nubae2but yeah hopefully there will be some civil merging00:03
LaserJockbut how are you guys going to get Sugar fixed up?00:03
nubae2for one, by packaging abiword with libabiword00:04
nubae2fixing evince00:04
nubae2and alll the packages that depend on those00:04
LaserJockany new package should ideally be uploaded *today* btw00:04
LaserJockso who's going to do libabiword?00:05
LaserJockthat's not a trivial change00:05
nubae2I see what u mean... but I only know the people involved... I'm not gonna take responsibility for messing something this major up00:05
LaserJockright, I'm just saying00:06
LaserJockthis stuff needs to get figured out ASAP00:06
nubae2morgan is probably the right person to do it00:06
LaserJockbecause, like I said, it should've been done by today00:06
nubae2luke has been doing a lot of it, but he's not as experienced00:06
nubae2the fork was announced about 45 minutes ago00:06
nubae2whatcha want us to do?00:07
nubae2the problem is the amount of deps abiword needs00:07
LaserJockfind somebody to get the packaging work done00:07
nubae2its a true pain in the ass00:07
LaserJockthis is why Sugar needs to work on getting some devs going00:08
nubae2hmmm.... I can think of one person00:08
nubae2:-)00:08
LaserJockXubuntu needs to be consulted00:08
nubae2look dont worry about it, we're anyway all focused on 0.83/0.84 and its major list of bugs00:09
nubae2libabiword thing is just one of many00:09
LaserJockright00:09
LaserJockbut I'm not exactly sure libabiword is gonna make it00:09
nubae2and what has xubuntu got to do with this?00:09
LaserJockso ...00:09
LaserJockXubuntu is the usual maintainer of abiword00:09
nubae2ah00:09
LaserJockthey have the most experience with the package00:10
nubae2cause it comes in their main00:10
nubae2gotcha00:10
LaserJockand they would also be affected by any changes00:10
LaserJockyou don't want to go screwing their package up right before a Freeze ;-)00:10
nubae2darn,.... when's feature freeze?00:10
LaserJocknext thursday00:10
nubae2ok, well we'll sort it by then00:11
LaserJockgenerally that's when they stop processing the queu00:11
LaserJock+e00:11
nubae2yeah well this wouldnt be the first exception00:11
nubae2anyway, dude, u have enough to worry about with edubuntu00:11
LaserJockwell, Feature Freeze may *not* apply, I don't know00:12
nubae2it was already decided nto to include in jaunty00:12
LaserJockit's the same source and upstream version00:12
nubae2so... leave this issue to someone else man00:12
LaserJockbut a new binary00:12
nubae2welll a binary is easy00:12
LaserJockif you're not familiar with library packaging it can be a real pain00:13
LaserJockand it'll have to go through NEW00:13
LaserJockand since the debdiff has been rejected once already it's important to get another shot going soon00:13
nubae2LaserJock: u're taking this too personal man, let someone else take this one on00:14
nubae2its not on your shoulders00:14
nubae2or mine00:14
nubae2basically, Jonas started attacking the competency of ubuntu devs themselves00:15
nubae2etc etc00:15
LaserJocksure, I know the usual thing00:15
LaserJockbut given that, you now have 0 Debian help00:15
nubae2nah thats not true00:16
nubae2we have holger00:16
LaserJockso I'm just trying to give some advice on making sure this thing makes it in Jaunty00:16
nubae2who more than wants to help00:16
nubae2what makes it into Jaunty?00:16
nubae2sguar?00:16
nubae2sugar?00:16
LaserJocka decently working sugar00:16
LaserJockvorian has really been helping00:16
nubae2well, its 2 real big ones that need to be fixed, abiword, and evince00:17
LaserJockyou all need to give him some major props as he's a KDE guy00:17
nubae2tomeu is working on evince00:17
LaserJockright, but the problem is I've seen fixes for both of those rejected already00:17
nubae2and morgan/lfaraone will work on libabiword00:17
LaserJockand you're talking about pretty core apps00:17
nubae2by who?00:17
nubae2Jonas?00:17
LaserJockno00:17
LaserJockin Ubuntu00:18
LaserJockboth tomeu and lfaraone's initial tries00:18
nubae2can i have a look at the links00:18
LaserJockhttps://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/32044000:18
ubottuUbuntu bug 320440 in abiword "Sugar needs abiword built with libabiword" [Medium,In progress]00:18
nubae2I feel - and that needs to be coordinated with Debian.00:19
nubae2so it was a Jonas issue00:19
LaserJockno00:20
LaserJockit was rejected because it was a bad patch00:20
LaserJockso dholbach suggested working with Debian as lfaraone didn't seem to understand library packaging well00:20
nubae2ok, let me have a chat with lfaraone00:20
nubae2and find out what we can do00:21
nubae2right that was the attack from Jonas, who refused to help him00:21
LaserJockno00:21
LaserJockJonas is not *any* part of that bug00:21
LaserJocknow, if you can convince Masayuki Hatta to do the split in abiword right after lenny is release you might have a shot at it00:22
nubae2I'm not saying he was00:23
nubae2Im saying, that when he asked Jonas to help him with it, he was flatly told, u dont know enough about the technical stuff in git to get involved00:23
LaserJockotherwise you need to get somebody in Ubuntu to do it right and convince Xubuntu and a Core Dev that it's a good idea00:23
nubae2Im talking with luke about that right now00:23
nubae2man.... politics00:24
LaserJockconsidering abiword's history I think it's unlikely that we'll want to do it00:24
nubae2if this is how its its gonna be every time....00:24
LaserJockabiword used to be forked from Debian and it was a giant pain00:24
nubae2we aint got a choice in the matter00:24
LaserJockit's unlikely people will want to do it again unless Debian has at least said they're going to do it at some point00:24
nubae2well, holger said he'd take it over00:25
nubae2thats fine isnt it?00:25
LaserJocktake over what?00:25
nubae2maintaining it00:26
vorianLaserJock: it's really no problem at all, just poke me if/when you guys need help :)00:26
LaserJocknubae2: abiword?00:26
nubae2yes.... but vorian^^^ what kinda help are u offering :D00:27
LaserJocknubae2: you can't just hijack people's packages, I doubt that's what he meant anyway00:27
LaserJocknubae2: holger doesn't maintain abiword so he's really not allowed to upload something like this00:27
LaserJockbut perhaps he just meant offering a patch to the current maintainers00:28
LaserJockbut it's still all rather late00:28
LaserJockoh well00:28
nubae2look, if u read the entire thread, u'll see how truly uncivil it all became00:29
LaserJockI'm just gonna have to say "not my problem" and let morgs, et. al take care of it00:29
LaserJockright, I understand00:29
LaserJockbut Jonas doesn't matter00:29
nubae2a little bit of help was asked for to get the problem fixed once and for all, but it was stated by certain debian people that they would only work with 0.8200:29
LaserJockthe question is how to go about getting things done for Jaunty00:29
nubae2right00:30
nubae2me... I'm fixing this by making a sugar on a stick and compiling abiword with libabiword from source00:30
nubae2that will work for me and my schools00:30
nubae2this is the latest luke email to jonas, which I think seems fine: Ubuntu will sync their changes back to Debian as soon as we can; that is, as soon as Sugar releases its next stable version. Which brings up a related question: are "beta" and "Release Candidate"s considered stable enough for Debian inclusion in your opinion?00:32
nubae2the issue here is, there is no point, and nobody will, work on 0.82 in the sugar team00:33
nubae2its just not gonna happen00:33
* nubae2 wishes he had more time and was a faster learner so he could fix this himself, but hes not...00:34
LaserJockwell, splitting abiword wouldn't take much time00:34
LaserJockdoing all the paperwork and making sure all relevant parties are happy will00:35
nubae2i know, hence my own little solution :-)00:35
nubae2u know... fedora doesnt have this problem00:35
nubae2they happily managed to advance to a quite acceptable version in a matter of weeks00:36
nubae2what a sad state of affairs00:36
* nubae2 breathes a little lighter....00:38
LaserJockwell, Fedora does a lot of things well00:40
LaserJockbut other things not so well00:41
LaserJockthey seem fairly interested in OLPC stuff00:41
nubae2yup, but clearly in this situ.... no politics were involved00:41
nubae2they just went and did the work00:41
LaserJockwell, that's good and bad00:45
LaserJockwe have politics because we have a lot of people all collaborating and depending on each other00:45
LaserJockFedora doesn't have to work with derivatives and quite a lot of their stuff is managed through Red Hat00:46
LaserJockso it tends to be more "this is how we're gonna do it" rather than "how are we gonna do it?"00:46
nubae2Fedora has derivates too00:50
nubae2maybe not such big ones00:50
LaserJocknot like our relationship with Debian really00:50
nubae2but still, Im sure they have their own political battles, but it just seems from this recent experience like something went big time wrong00:50
nubae2and I wonder how I (we) can learn from it00:51
LaserJockwell, it's somewhat common when a strong player in Debian is nasty00:51
LaserJockand it always comes out at release time00:51
LaserJockthe problem is always going to be incompatible objectives and timelines00:52
LaserJockI dont think it's particularly wise to work on Ubuntu via Debian00:52
LaserJockif Ubuntu people want to work on Debian, awesome. but they have to remember they are working on Debian, not Ubuntu00:53
nubae2yeah well it always seemed like it was 2 times the power00:54
nubae2but in times like this it seems the opposite :-)00:54
LaserJockheh, yeah00:54
nubae2I guess the bsd distros go through similar stuff00:55
nubae2cause of their hierarchy00:55
nubae2I actually bought back like 15 distro cds from fossdem (free copies of course) so I'm curious to see where they're all at now00:56
nubae2the ubuntu ones were gone on the first day in under 2 hours00:56
nubae2was funny00:56
LaserJockit is00:57
nubae2and gentoo had its own hand written no labels cds00:57
LaserJockbecause they're the easiest to download00:57
nubae2mandriva had the coolest looking case by far00:57
nubae2and then there were like 8 different bsd derivs (pcbsd,00:58
nubae2and ll its clones00:58
nubae2forget the names now00:58
nubae2but basically just all freebsd00:58
nubae2there were some really interesting xmpp talks01:00
nubae2a whole day of different xmpp apps01:00
nubae2was impressive01:00
LaserJockwell, I think I'm gonna maybe send out an email with the things I'm doing for Jaunty01:02
LaserJockand the rest are just gonna have to be up for grabs01:03
LaserJockI've talked some various devs and they've been encouraging about just asking the developer community for help01:03
nubae2oh yeah...01:05
nubae2I have the kde contact details here for u01:05
nubae2for the guys who really wanted to be involved with edubuntu01:05
nubae2u want tel too? or just email?01:09
LaserJockemail is good01:09
nubae2Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet@kde.org)01:09
nubae2he seemed to know what was the current state of affairs of the apps quite well and showed me some plasmoid magic...01:10
nubae2from the Netherlands01:10
nubae2also, he showed me the new kstars01:11
nubae2which is actually starting to rival celestia01:11
nubae2git-buildpackage is what exactly?01:29
LaserJocknubae2: it helps you build source packages from a git repo01:30
LaserJockand with that I've gotta run01:31
nubae2mornin alkisg04:51
alkisgHey nubae2, what's up?04:51
alkisgYou're a morning type too, heh? :)04:51
nubae2well sometimes a all nighter type04:51
nubae2but usually morning yeah04:51
nubae2it all depends04:51
nubae2u know the way it is... if u get into something u sometimes cant stop04:52
alkisgYeah, I know... Not being able to sleep after 7:00 am is a curse :(04:52
nubae2hey whats ure email again?04:55
nubae2I have something that will make u crack up... email from debian maintainers concerning sugar :-)04:55
nubae2and what bad people ubuntu guys really are04:56
alkisgHeh... alkisg at gmail04:57
nubae2quite unbelievable actually04:58
nubae2It was the 56 or 57th message in the thread that I ended up having been stupid enough to start04:58
nubae2causing a fork from debian04:59
nubae2ahh man, what a day/night04:59
* alkisg reads...04:59
nubae2and the only thing i did was ask for help05:00
alkisgOh no you're gonna start a schism :D05:02
alkisgPeople will remember you as the guy who started the war :P05:02
nubae2jeez... the guy is just nuts though05:04
nubae2hes flamed everyone on sugar and ubuntu05:04
alkisgThe bad thing with the internet is that this guy could be a 12 year old kid...05:05
nubae2yeah, I fear not05:05
=== nubae2 is now known as nubae
alkisgAnyway gotta get my kids to school. guten Morgen :)05:06
nubaego for it ;-)05:07
nubaemoaning11:44
nubaeooof.. no afternoon already11:45
jaggedalocHey room...  anyone have any knowledge of the edubuntu remix for the Classmate 2go PC?12:03
jaggedalocI'm wondering if it ever went further than Release Canidate stage.12:04
nubaeogra would be the one to ask for that12:07
ograi'm not working on that anymore, our OEM team works with intel directly now, which means intel controls where or how (or if at all) the image gets published12:09
ogramy work on it ended with what you find on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/hardy/12:09
jaggedalocthanks12:11
jaggedalocogra: Opinion -- should I try Ubuntu Netbook Remix?12:13
ograsure, you can do that12:13
ograafaik thats what the new classmate image will be based on as well12:13
jaggedalocthanks one million12:14
* nubae waves18:53
LaserJockhi nubae18:53
nubaehey... so u missed the email that got the jackpot18:54
nubaefrom yesterday18:54
nubaeI didnt respond anymore, because it was just incredible.... I showed alkisg this morning he was lol18:55
nubaeit just got so personal, i was adviced by more mature people on the list to just not even answer anymore, because it became a straight out, ubuntu is crap and it has caused debian to die kinda thread18:58
nubaeso I just read the email, mouth open a little, and then left it at that... anyway, on to more practical things18:59
nubaeSpoke to morgan and Lfaraone today18:59
LaserJocknubae: and any progress made?19:02
nubaejut to bring this back public, in case others read...19:05
nubaeI believe he wants to test it himself first19:05
nubaeright I understand19:05
LaserJocknp19:06
LaserJockjust as soon as you can19:06
LaserJockget it up there for review19:06
LaserJockhow's evince?19:06
nubaeill make sure it gets to u?19:06
nubaealso supposedly fixed19:06
LaserJockhas it been uploaded?19:06
nubaeand nm problem, which was really a regression19:06
nubaewell its all in their ppas i believe19:07
LaserJockI hate to beat a dead horse, but it's not fixed until it's in the archive19:07
nubaethey really should pass it on to motu19:07
LaserJockMOTU isn't sufficent19:07
LaserJockit has to be Core Dev19:07
nubaeok, so pass it to you then?19:07
LaserJockwell, I can look at it, but evince should go to Desktop Team19:08
LaserJockand abiword should likely go to Xubuntu19:08
nubaeok im still unsure of the flow of packages and maybe they are too or maybe not19:09
nubaeill make sure to find out though19:09
nubaei have to go eat, bbiab19:09
LaserJockif you need a "does this seem reasonable" I can certainly look at the patches19:09
LaserJockbut you generally should go to the people most affected by the changes19:09
LaserJockgenerally the Desktop Team takes care of Gnome and Xubuntu takes care of gnumeric & abiword19:10
nubaeright, we'll (or I'll if it is just me) learn that process as quickly as I can19:10
LaserJockany core dev *can* upload it, but it's nice to get the most relevant team19:10
LnsHey all19:32
LaserJockhi Lns19:32
LnsAnyone know why, when editing moinmoin (ubuntu) wiki, and putting in a bash script #!/bin/bash (in a code block), it takes it out when viewing it? Any way to show it?19:33
Lnshey LaserJock =)19:33
LaserJockwell, # is a macro definition in moin19:34
nubaewhats the delimiter again?19:35
LaserJockI don't know offhand how you escape that19:35
Lnsit just started doing that recently afaik19:35
nubaebackslash?19:35
alkisgLns:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NautilusScriptsHowto19:35
alkisgThere's an example there, see the code19:35
alkisgSearch for /bin/bash19:35
Lnsalkisg: thanks!! looks like you just have to indent that line19:36
nubaehmm really?19:36
nubaethats easy then19:36
Lnsof course that leaves space when people want to copy/paste19:38
LaserJockan I hate doing MIRs :/19:38
* nubae is gonna get that list of universe apps to LaserJock tonight19:39
LnsFor anyone wondering what i've been up to, here ya go: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AutomatedTCStartup19:40
nubaehmmm your pages get prettier and prettier :p19:40
LaserJocknubae: yeah, we're not going to get anything into Main it looks like so we should try to do the best we can with Universe19:41
Lnsnubae: prettier? =p19:42
nubaeand that way we can get some feedback on the apps too19:42
nubaeofr Jaunty+119:42
LaserJocknubae: yeah, exactly19:42
nubaeLns: yes, nicer looking19:42
LaserJockit will give a much easier way to push things into Main as well, I think19:43
alkisgHey, CategoryLtsp? :)19:43
Lnsnubae: haha..thanks!19:43
LaserJockso you have "General Universe" -> "Edubuntu Universe" -> "Edubuntu Main"19:43
Lnsalkisg: yup =) that's in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLtspTemplate19:43
nubaewhats the state of sabayon now btw, wasnt following that much19:43
alkisgWow, someone's been reading the moinmoin docs... :)19:44
nubaewho's in the mood for some quick regexp bashisms?19:44
LaserJocknubae: well, sabayon hasn't changed :/19:44
nubaeoh, I thought it was kinda fixed19:45
LaserJockwell, we found some bugs19:47
LaserJockbut you fix one and another pops up, and so on19:47
nubaeah right19:49
Lns"If at first you don't succeed, call it v1.0"19:51
alkisgHas anyone used prism? I'm trying to bundle into .debs some flash/html educational applications...20:15
LaserJockI've used it before20:18
alkisgLaserJock: succesfully? had any problems?20:35
LaserJocknope20:39
LaserJockI didn't end up using it a ton20:39
LaserJockas I just open up tabs for the apps I'd be using anyway20:39
alkisgYeah, for experienced users it's not really useful, I was thinking about the young students...20:46
LaserJockyeah, seems like it would be awesome20:47
AhmuckLns: call it ME.  and if you don't suceed the second time, call it Vista20:54
LnsAhmuck: ha20:54
LaserJockAhmuck: and if it doesn't work a third time switch two whole numbers20:56
LaserJocks/two/to/20:58
nubaehttp://zim-wiki.org/21:19
Lnsnubae: oo, looks like tomboy notes. I like "sticky notes" for their simplicity in design, but wish it had note linking21:34
Lnstomboy notes is a bit much for me21:34

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