[00:00] <nubae2> no, no motus
[00:00] <LaserJock> I found the archive of the email
[00:00] <nubae2> enjoy :-)
[00:00] <LaserJock> my point is he doesn't have to do anything
[00:00] <nubae2> hes the only package manager
[00:00] <LaserJock> that doesn't *matter*
[00:00] <LaserJock> that's what I'm trying to get at
[00:01] <LaserJock> he's irrelevant
[00:01] <nubae2> how would we then get our packages into debian?
[00:01] <LaserJock> you *don't*
[00:01] <nubae2> right, thats a fork
[00:01] <LaserJock> *no*
[00:01] <nubae2> ok, maybe I dont get the politics of this then...
[00:02] <LaserJock> you can work in the Debian git repo in a 0.84 branch
[00:02] <LaserJock> and *nothing* is uploaded to Debian
[00:02] <LaserJock> Ubuntu just takes the git branch and uploads to Ubuntu
[00:02] <LaserJock> later on when Jonas decides he wants to upload 0.84 to Debian he can do that
[00:02] <LaserJock> but it's the same team, no forking
[00:02] <LaserJock> it's the same git, etc.
[00:03] <nubae2> well, Jonas will do his thing
[00:03] <nubae2> and we will do ours
[00:03] <nubae2> so who knows what happens later on down the line
[00:03] <LaserJock> ok, well whatever, I'll be quiet :-)
[00:03] <nubae2> but yeah hopefully there will be some civil merging
[00:03] <LaserJock> but how are you guys going to get Sugar fixed up?
[00:04] <nubae2> for one, by packaging abiword with libabiword
[00:04] <nubae2> fixing evince
[00:04] <nubae2> and alll the packages that depend on those
[00:04] <LaserJock> any new package should ideally be uploaded *today* btw
[00:05] <LaserJock> so who's going to do libabiword?
[00:05] <LaserJock> that's not a trivial change
[00:05] <nubae2> I see what u mean... but I only know the people involved... I'm not gonna take responsibility for messing something this major up
[00:06] <LaserJock> right, I'm just saying
[00:06] <LaserJock> this stuff needs to get figured out ASAP
[00:06] <nubae2> morgan is probably the right person to do it
[00:06] <LaserJock> because, like I said, it should've been done by today
[00:06] <nubae2> luke has been doing a lot of it, but he's not as experienced
[00:06] <nubae2> the fork was announced about 45 minutes ago
[00:07] <nubae2> whatcha want us to do?
[00:07] <nubae2> the problem is the amount of deps abiword needs
[00:07] <LaserJock> find somebody to get the packaging work done
[00:07] <nubae2> its a true pain in the ass
[00:08] <LaserJock> this is why Sugar needs to work on getting some devs going
[00:08] <nubae2> hmmm.... I can think of one person
[00:08] <nubae2> :-)
[00:08] <LaserJock> Xubuntu needs to be consulted
[00:09] <nubae2> look dont worry about it, we're anyway all focused on 0.83/0.84 and its major list of bugs
[00:09] <nubae2> libabiword thing is just one of many
[00:09] <LaserJock> right
[00:09] <LaserJock> but I'm not exactly sure libabiword is gonna make it
[00:09] <nubae2> and what has xubuntu got to do with this?
[00:09] <LaserJock> so ...
[00:09] <LaserJock> Xubuntu is the usual maintainer of abiword
[00:09] <nubae2> ah
[00:10] <LaserJock> they have the most experience with the package
[00:10] <nubae2> cause it comes in their main
[00:10] <nubae2> gotcha
[00:10] <LaserJock> and they would also be affected by any changes
[00:10] <LaserJock> you don't want to go screwing their package up right before a Freeze ;-)
[00:10] <nubae2> darn,.... when's feature freeze?
[00:10] <LaserJock> next thursday
[00:11] <nubae2> ok, well we'll sort it by then
[00:11] <LaserJock> generally that's when they stop processing the queu
[00:11] <LaserJock> +e
[00:11] <nubae2> yeah well this wouldnt be the first exception
[00:11] <nubae2> anyway, dude, u have enough to worry about with edubuntu
[00:12] <LaserJock> well, Feature Freeze may *not* apply, I don't know
[00:12] <nubae2> it was already decided nto to include in jaunty
[00:12] <LaserJock> it's the same source and upstream version
[00:12] <nubae2> so... leave this issue to someone else man
[00:12] <LaserJock> but a new binary
[00:12] <nubae2> welll a binary is easy
[00:13] <LaserJock> if you're not familiar with library packaging it can be a real pain
[00:13] <LaserJock> and it'll have to go through NEW
[00:13] <LaserJock> and since the debdiff has been rejected once already it's important to get another shot going soon
[00:14] <nubae2> LaserJock: u're taking this too personal man, let someone else take this one on
[00:14] <nubae2> its not on your shoulders
[00:14] <nubae2> or mine
[00:15] <nubae2> basically, Jonas started attacking the competency of ubuntu devs themselves
[00:15] <nubae2> etc etc
[00:15] <LaserJock> sure, I know the usual thing
[00:15] <LaserJock> but given that, you now have 0 Debian help
[00:16] <nubae2> nah thats not true
[00:16] <nubae2> we have holger
[00:16] <LaserJock> so I'm just trying to give some advice on making sure this thing makes it in Jaunty
[00:16] <nubae2> who more than wants to help
[00:16] <nubae2> what makes it into Jaunty?
[00:16] <nubae2> sguar?
[00:16] <nubae2> sugar?
[00:16] <LaserJock> a decently working sugar
[00:16] <LaserJock> vorian has really been helping
[00:17] <nubae2> well, its 2 real big ones that need to be fixed, abiword, and evince
[00:17] <LaserJock> you all need to give him some major props as he's a KDE guy
[00:17] <nubae2> tomeu is working on evince
[00:17] <LaserJock> right, but the problem is I've seen fixes for both of those rejected already
[00:17] <nubae2> and morgan/lfaraone will work on libabiword
[00:17] <LaserJock> and you're talking about pretty core apps
[00:17] <nubae2> by who?
[00:17] <nubae2> Jonas?
[00:17] <LaserJock> no
[00:18] <LaserJock> in Ubuntu
[00:18] <LaserJock> both tomeu and lfaraone's initial tries
[00:18] <nubae2> can i have a look at the links
[00:18] <LaserJock> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/320440
[00:19] <nubae2> I feel - and that needs to be coordinated with Debian.
[00:19] <nubae2> so it was a Jonas issue
[00:20] <LaserJock> no
[00:20] <LaserJock> it was rejected because it was a bad patch
[00:20] <LaserJock> so dholbach suggested working with Debian as lfaraone didn't seem to understand library packaging well
[00:20] <nubae2> ok, let me have a chat with lfaraone
[00:21] <nubae2> and find out what we can do
[00:21] <nubae2> right that was the attack from Jonas, who refused to help him
[00:21] <LaserJock> no
[00:21] <LaserJock> Jonas is not *any* part of that bug
[00:22] <LaserJock> now, if you can convince Masayuki Hatta to do the split in abiword right after lenny is release you might have a shot at it
[00:23] <nubae2> I'm not saying he was
[00:23] <nubae2> Im saying, that when he asked Jonas to help him with it, he was flatly told, u dont know enough about the technical stuff in git to get involved
[00:23] <LaserJock> otherwise you need to get somebody in Ubuntu to do it right and convince Xubuntu and a Core Dev that it's a good idea
[00:23] <nubae2> Im talking with luke about that right now
[00:24] <nubae2> man.... politics
[00:24] <LaserJock> considering abiword's history I think it's unlikely that we'll want to do it
[00:24] <nubae2> if this is how its its gonna be every time....
[00:24] <LaserJock> abiword used to be forked from Debian and it was a giant pain
[00:24] <nubae2> we aint got a choice in the matter
[00:24] <LaserJock> it's unlikely people will want to do it again unless Debian has at least said they're going to do it at some point
[00:25] <nubae2> well, holger said he'd take it over
[00:25] <nubae2> thats fine isnt it?
[00:25] <LaserJock> take over what?
[00:26] <nubae2> maintaining it
[00:26] <vorian> LaserJock: it's really no problem at all, just poke me if/when you guys need help :)
[00:26] <LaserJock> nubae2: abiword?
[00:27] <nubae2> yes.... but vorian^^^ what kinda help are u offering :D
[00:27] <LaserJock> nubae2: you can't just hijack people's packages, I doubt that's what he meant anyway
[00:27] <LaserJock> nubae2: holger doesn't maintain abiword so he's really not allowed to upload something like this
[00:28] <LaserJock> but perhaps he just meant offering a patch to the current maintainers
[00:28] <LaserJock> but it's still all rather late
[00:28] <LaserJock> oh well
[00:29] <nubae2> look, if u read the entire thread, u'll see how truly uncivil it all became
[00:29] <LaserJock> I'm just gonna have to say "not my problem" and let morgs, et. al take care of it
[00:29] <LaserJock> right, I understand
[00:29] <LaserJock> but Jonas doesn't matter
[00:29] <nubae2> a little bit of help was asked for to get the problem fixed once and for all, but it was stated by certain debian people that they would only work with 0.82
[00:29] <LaserJock> the question is how to go about getting things done for Jaunty
[00:30] <nubae2> right
[00:30] <nubae2> me... I'm fixing this by making a sugar on a stick and compiling abiword with libabiword from source
[00:30] <nubae2> that will work for me and my schools
[00:32] <nubae2> this is the latest luke email to jonas, which I think seems fine: Ubuntu will sync their changes back to Debian as soon as we can; that is, as soon as Sugar releases its next stable version. Which brings up a related question: are "beta" and "Release Candidate"s considered stable enough for Debian inclusion in your opinion?
[00:33] <nubae2> the issue here is, there is no point, and nobody will, work on 0.82 in the sugar team
[00:33] <nubae2> its just not gonna happen
[00:34]  * nubae2 wishes he had more time and was a faster learner so he could fix this himself, but hes not...
[00:34] <LaserJock> well, splitting abiword wouldn't take much time
[00:35] <LaserJock> doing all the paperwork and making sure all relevant parties are happy will
[00:35] <nubae2> i know, hence my own little solution :-)
[00:35] <nubae2> u know... fedora doesnt have this problem
[00:36] <nubae2> they happily managed to advance to a quite acceptable version in a matter of weeks
[00:36] <nubae2> what a sad state of affairs
[00:38]  * nubae2 breathes a little lighter....
[00:40] <LaserJock> well, Fedora does a lot of things well
[00:41] <LaserJock> but other things not so well
[00:41] <LaserJock> they seem fairly interested in OLPC stuff
[00:41] <nubae2> yup, but clearly in this situ.... no politics were involved
[00:41] <nubae2> they just went and did the work
[00:45] <LaserJock> well, that's good and bad
[00:45] <LaserJock> we have politics because we have a lot of people all collaborating and depending on each other
[00:46] <LaserJock> Fedora doesn't have to work with derivatives and quite a lot of their stuff is managed through Red Hat
[00:46] <LaserJock> so it tends to be more "this is how we're gonna do it" rather than "how are we gonna do it?"
[00:50] <nubae2> Fedora has derivates too
[00:50] <nubae2> maybe not such big ones
[00:50] <LaserJock> not like our relationship with Debian really
[00:50] <nubae2> but still, Im sure they have their own political battles, but it just seems from this recent experience like something went big time wrong
[00:51] <nubae2> and I wonder how I (we) can learn from it
[00:51] <LaserJock> well, it's somewhat common when a strong player in Debian is nasty
[00:51] <LaserJock> and it always comes out at release time
[00:52] <LaserJock> the problem is always going to be incompatible objectives and timelines
[00:52] <LaserJock> I dont think it's particularly wise to work on Ubuntu via Debian
[00:53] <LaserJock> if Ubuntu people want to work on Debian, awesome. but they have to remember they are working on Debian, not Ubuntu
[00:54] <nubae2> yeah well it always seemed like it was 2 times the power
[00:54] <nubae2> but in times like this it seems the opposite :-)
[00:54] <LaserJock> heh, yeah
[00:55] <nubae2> I guess the bsd distros go through similar stuff
[00:55] <nubae2> cause of their hierarchy
[00:56] <nubae2> I actually bought back like 15 distro cds from fossdem (free copies of course) so I'm curious to see where they're all at now
[00:56] <nubae2> the ubuntu ones were gone on the first day in under 2 hours
[00:56] <nubae2> was funny
[00:57] <LaserJock> it is
[00:57] <nubae2> and gentoo had its own hand written no labels cds
[00:57] <LaserJock> because they're the easiest to download
[00:57] <nubae2> mandriva had the coolest looking case by far
[00:58] <nubae2> and then there were like 8 different bsd derivs (pcbsd,
[00:58] <nubae2> and ll its clones
[00:58] <nubae2> forget the names now
[00:58] <nubae2> but basically just all freebsd
[01:00] <nubae2> there were some really interesting xmpp talks
[01:00] <nubae2> a whole day of different xmpp apps
[01:00] <nubae2> was impressive
[01:02] <LaserJock> well, I think I'm gonna maybe send out an email with the things I'm doing for Jaunty
[01:03] <LaserJock> and the rest are just gonna have to be up for grabs
[01:03] <LaserJock> I've talked some various devs and they've been encouraging about just asking the developer community for help
[01:05] <nubae2> oh yeah...
[01:05] <nubae2> I have the kde contact details here for u
[01:05] <nubae2> for the guys who really wanted to be involved with edubuntu
[01:09] <nubae2> u want tel too? or just email?
[01:09] <LaserJock> email is good
[01:09] <nubae2> Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet@kde.org)
[01:10] <nubae2> he seemed to know what was the current state of affairs of the apps quite well and showed me some plasmoid magic...
[01:10] <nubae2> from the Netherlands
[01:11] <nubae2> also, he showed me the new kstars
[01:11] <nubae2> which is actually starting to rival celestia
[01:29] <nubae2> git-buildpackage is what exactly?
[01:30] <LaserJock> nubae2: it helps you build source packages from a git repo
[01:31] <LaserJock> and with that I've gotta run
[04:51] <nubae2> mornin alkisg
[04:51] <alkisg> Hey nubae2, what's up?
[04:51] <alkisg> You're a morning type too, heh? :)
[04:51] <nubae2> well sometimes a all nighter type
[04:51] <nubae2> but usually morning yeah
[04:51] <nubae2> it all depends
[04:52] <nubae2> u know the way it is... if u get into something u sometimes cant stop
[04:52] <alkisg> Yeah, I know... Not being able to sleep after 7:00 am is a curse :(
[04:55] <nubae2> hey whats ure email again?
[04:55] <nubae2> I have something that will make u crack up... email from debian maintainers concerning sugar :-)
[04:56] <nubae2> and what bad people ubuntu guys really are
[04:57] <alkisg> Heh... alkisg at gmail
[04:58] <nubae2> quite unbelievable actually
[04:58] <nubae2> It was the 56 or 57th message in the thread that I ended up having been stupid enough to start
[04:59] <nubae2> causing a fork from debian
[04:59] <nubae2> ahh man, what a day/night
[04:59]  * alkisg reads...
[05:00] <nubae2> and the only thing i did was ask for help
[05:02] <alkisg> Oh no you're gonna start a schism :D
[05:02] <alkisg> People will remember you as the guy who started the war :P
[05:04] <nubae2> jeez... the guy is just nuts though
[05:04] <nubae2> hes flamed everyone on sugar and ubuntu
[05:05] <alkisg> The bad thing with the internet is that this guy could be a 12 year old kid...
[05:05] <nubae2> yeah, I fear not
[05:06] <alkisg> Anyway gotta get my kids to school. guten Morgen :)
[05:07] <nubae> go for it ;-)
[11:44] <nubae> moaning
[11:45] <nubae> ooof.. no afternoon already
[12:03] <jaggedaloc> Hey room...  anyone have any knowledge of the edubuntu remix for the Classmate 2go PC?
[12:04] <jaggedaloc> I'm wondering if it ever went further than Release Canidate stage.
[12:07] <nubae> ogra would be the one to ask for that
[12:09] <ogra> i'm not working on that anymore, our OEM team works with intel directly now, which means intel controls where or how (or if at all) the image gets published
[12:09] <ogra> my work on it ended with what you find on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/hardy/
[12:11] <jaggedaloc> thanks
[12:13] <jaggedaloc> ogra: Opinion -- should I try Ubuntu Netbook Remix?
[12:13] <ogra> sure, you can do that
[12:13] <ogra> afaik thats what the new classmate image will be based on as well
[12:14] <jaggedaloc> thanks one million
[18:53]  * nubae waves
[18:53] <LaserJock> hi nubae
[18:54] <nubae> hey... so u missed the email that got the jackpot
[18:54] <nubae> from yesterday
[18:55] <nubae> I didnt respond anymore, because it was just incredible.... I showed alkisg this morning he was lol
[18:58] <nubae> it just got so personal, i was adviced by more mature people on the list to just not even answer anymore, because it became a straight out, ubuntu is crap and it has caused debian to die kinda thread
[18:59] <nubae> so I just read the email, mouth open a little, and then left it at that... anyway, on to more practical things
[18:59] <nubae> Spoke to morgan and Lfaraone today
[19:02] <LaserJock> nubae: and any progress made?
[19:05] <nubae> jut to bring this back public, in case others read...
[19:05] <nubae> I believe he wants to test it himself first
[19:05] <nubae> right I understand
[19:06] <LaserJock> np
[19:06] <LaserJock> just as soon as you can
[19:06] <LaserJock> get it up there for review
[19:06] <LaserJock> how's evince?
[19:06] <nubae> ill make sure it gets to u?
[19:06] <nubae> also supposedly fixed
[19:06] <LaserJock> has it been uploaded?
[19:06] <nubae> and nm problem, which was really a regression
[19:07] <nubae> well its all in their ppas i believe
[19:07] <LaserJock> I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's not fixed until it's in the archive
[19:07] <nubae> they really should pass it on to motu
[19:07] <LaserJock> MOTU isn't sufficent
[19:07] <LaserJock> it has to be Core Dev
[19:07] <nubae> ok, so pass it to you then?
[19:08] <LaserJock> well, I can look at it, but evince should go to Desktop Team
[19:08] <LaserJock> and abiword should likely go to Xubuntu
[19:09] <nubae> ok im still unsure of the flow of packages and maybe they are too or maybe not
[19:09] <nubae> ill make sure to find out though
[19:09] <nubae> i have to go eat, bbiab
[19:09] <LaserJock> if you need a "does this seem reasonable" I can certainly look at the patches
[19:09] <LaserJock> but you generally should go to the people most affected by the changes
[19:10] <LaserJock> generally the Desktop Team takes care of Gnome and Xubuntu takes care of gnumeric & abiword
[19:10] <nubae> right, we'll (or I'll if it is just me) learn that process as quickly as I can
[19:10] <LaserJock> any core dev *can* upload it, but it's nice to get the most relevant team
[19:32] <Lns> Hey all
[19:32] <LaserJock> hi Lns
[19:33] <Lns> Anyone know why, when editing moinmoin (ubuntu) wiki, and putting in a bash script #!/bin/bash (in a code block), it takes it out when viewing it? Any way to show it?
[19:33] <Lns> hey LaserJock =)
[19:34] <LaserJock> well, # is a macro definition in moin
[19:35] <nubae> whats the delimiter again?
[19:35] <LaserJock> I don't know offhand how you escape that
[19:35] <Lns> it just started doing that recently afaik
[19:35] <nubae> backslash?
[19:35] <alkisg> Lns:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NautilusScriptsHowto
[19:35] <alkisg> There's an example there, see the code
[19:35] <alkisg> Search for /bin/bash
[19:36] <Lns> alkisg: thanks!! looks like you just have to indent that line
[19:36] <nubae> hmm really?
[19:36] <nubae> thats easy then
[19:38] <Lns> of course that leaves space when people want to copy/paste
[19:38] <LaserJock> an I hate doing MIRs :/
[19:39]  * nubae is gonna get that list of universe apps to LaserJock tonight
[19:40] <Lns> For anyone wondering what i've been up to, here ya go: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AutomatedTCStartup
[19:40] <nubae> hmmm your pages get prettier and prettier :p
[19:41] <LaserJock> nubae: yeah, we're not going to get anything into Main it looks like so we should try to do the best we can with Universe
[19:42] <Lns> nubae: prettier? =p
[19:42] <nubae> and that way we can get some feedback on the apps too
[19:42] <nubae> ofr Jaunty+1
[19:42] <LaserJock> nubae: yeah, exactly
[19:42] <nubae> Lns: yes, nicer looking
[19:43] <LaserJock> it will give a much easier way to push things into Main as well, I think
[19:43] <alkisg> Hey, CategoryLtsp? :)
[19:43] <Lns> nubae: haha..thanks!
[19:43] <LaserJock> so you have "General Universe" -> "Edubuntu Universe" -> "Edubuntu Main"
[19:43] <Lns> alkisg: yup =) that's in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLtspTemplate
[19:43] <nubae> whats the state of sabayon now btw, wasnt following that much
[19:44] <alkisg> Wow, someone's been reading the moinmoin docs... :)
[19:44] <nubae> who's in the mood for some quick regexp bashisms?
[19:44] <LaserJock> nubae: well, sabayon hasn't changed :/
[19:45] <nubae> oh, I thought it was kinda fixed
[19:47] <LaserJock> well, we found some bugs
[19:47] <LaserJock> but you fix one and another pops up, and so on
[19:49] <nubae> ah right
[19:51] <Lns> "If at first you don't succeed, call it v1.0"
[20:15] <alkisg> Has anyone used prism? I'm trying to bundle into .debs some flash/html educational applications...
[20:18] <LaserJock> I've used it before
[20:35] <alkisg> LaserJock: succesfully? had any problems?
[20:39] <LaserJock> nope
[20:39] <LaserJock> I didn't end up using it a ton
[20:39] <LaserJock> as I just open up tabs for the apps I'd be using anyway
[20:46] <alkisg> Yeah, for experienced users it's not really useful, I was thinking about the young students...
[20:47] <LaserJock> yeah, seems like it would be awesome
[20:54] <Ahmuck> Lns: call it ME.  and if you don't suceed the second time, call it Vista
[20:54] <Lns> Ahmuck: ha
[20:56] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: and if it doesn't work a third time switch two whole numbers
[20:58] <LaserJock> s/two/to/
[21:19] <nubae> http://zim-wiki.org/
[21:34] <Lns> nubae: oo, looks like tomboy notes. I like "sticky notes" for their simplicity in design, but wish it had note linking
[21:34] <Lns> tomboy notes is a bit much for me