/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/02/13/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== _neversfelde is now known as neversfelde
Megiddowhen is the next ubuntuforums council meeting?00:58
huatsmorning06:51
dholbachhiya huats06:52
huatshey dholbach06:54
emgent@schedule rome06:56
persiaemgent, The bot doesn't know the schedule since the transition to the new calendar.  If you (or anyone) can make SupyBot understand Google Calendar and recurring events, it can be reenabled.06:57
ScottK\o06:58
huatsmorning scottK06:58
didrockshello ScottK06:58
ScottKola06:59
dholbachhello everybody! :)07:00
dholbachsoren: around?07:00
soreno/07:00
dholbachyoohoo07:00
dholbachdidrocks, huats, Laney: alive and doing well as well? :)07:00
didrocksdholbach: alive, for sure, at least ;)07:01
* jono high-fives everyone :)07:01
dholbachdidrocks: nervous? ;-)07:01
huatsalive yeah.... and sleeping an bit :)07:01
dholbachwe have an action-packed agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting07:01
didrocksdholbach: no, it's ok. Just surprised to see huats wake up so early :p07:01
dholbachlet's first chat a bit with Didier Roche07:01
dholbach:-)07:01
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DidierRoche/MOTUApplication07:01
dholbachdidrocks: you said that you worked on the bzr-desktop documentation - how did that work out generally?07:02
dholbachis it an easy, intuitive process? something that could be done by default?07:03
didrocksdholbach: there were an original and deprecated documentation for bzr-desktop team. As I am found of Vcs, I wanted to try to put some packages in bzr07:03
didrocksso, asking for some tips to james_w, I try to make it easier to use in the process07:03
didrocksand rewrote the documentation07:03
didrocksI think now it's quite easy to use. Putting a package in bzr is quite easy nowadays07:04
didrocksand then, updating a package in bzr is just fantastic :)07:04
didrocksI think that, as usual, the first step is the harder one07:04
didrocksbut then, it's a gain of time, when you have to diff between two revision, and so on…07:04
dholbachright07:05
dholbachall the desktop packages just store the packaging in bzr, right?07:05
dholbacherm... some of the desktop packages :)07:05
didrockswe are putting them one by one :)07:05
didrocksusing bzr merge mode07:05
didrocksand not everyone07:05
dholbachright, but you don't store the actual source there, right?07:05
didrocksyes, the merge mode is used to only store debian/ folder07:05
dholbachcould some of the DesktopTeam/Bzr docs go into DistributedDevelopment?07:06
didrocksI think, yeah, there is some updates to do accordingly to branch destination, but I think I can handle that easily07:06
dholbachsuper07:07
didrocksI have to discuss with james_w about synchronisation07:07
dholbachah... talking about documentation: did you document the dh_install --list-missing pbuidler hook? :-)07:07
didrocksbecause ATM, packages in ~desktop-team aren't synchronised if someone do not use bzr07:07
didrocksdholbach: it's on my schedule07:07
didrocksI want to better document hook07:07
dholbachdidrocks: great, it's going to be handy for lots of others as well07:07
didrocksdholbach: it's written in the ~desktop documentation one07:08
dholbachdidrocks: where's that?07:08
didrocksbut also, I want to change some little things in the proposed hook07:08
didrocksdholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr07:08
didrocks(in updating a package)07:08
didrocksbut, for instance, there is a hook that install/remove/install/purge…07:08
didrocksit's using depkg -i *.deb07:09
didrocksdpkg07:09
didrocksbut when you use pbuilder, the external runtime dependency aren't install07:09
didrocksI was thinking of changing it for dpkg -i *.deb || apt-get install -f07:09
didrocksto avoid crashing on unresolved dependency07:09
dholbachdidrocks: you could take a look at the check-symbols script, I think kees added some functionality there to do something similar07:10
didrocksdholbach: ok, I will, I just have used this script once and I have to review huats' work on it :)07:10
ScottKIs it OK if I jump in with a question?  I need to get to bed.07:11
persiaScottK, Yes.07:11
dholbachScottK: fire away07:11
ScottKdidrocks: I see you used to use KDE.  Have you tried KDE4 yet? (this isn't my actual question)07:11
didrocksScottK: hehe. I was sure it was KDE related :)07:11
didrocksScottK: I saw KDE 4.2 in FOSDEM and I was really impressed07:12
ScottKIn the Kubuntu team we are also using bzr to store the debian dir.  The basic is https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Ninjas/ReleasePackaging07:12
didrocksespecially with the "activities" dimension07:12
didrocksI will have a look at the Ninjas' documentation07:12
ScottKI was wondering if given your interest in bzr and desktop team you might be interested in working with us a bit and see how the two work flows compare.07:12
ScottKSee what we can learn from each other ...07:13
didrocksso, yes, KDE 4.2 is a great step forward. I really want to see 4.4 when activities will be bind to worspakces07:13
* ScottK didn't pick the names ...07:13
didrocksScottK: for sure07:13
didrocksScottK: I will have a look and see how we can bind our workflows07:13
ScottKvorian: ^^^ Be sure to grab this one the next release.07:13
dholbachthat sounds like a good idea07:14
ScottKI don't know that it makes sense to 'bind' them, but see what we can learn from each other.07:14
* ScottK sits down.07:14
dholbachthanks scottK07:14
persiadidrocks, One of your endorsements mentions small mistakes in upload candidates.  What strategies do you expect to use to avoid these in the future?07:14
didrockspersia: my mistakes were mostly in my first uploads (something like september?)07:15
didrocksI was more typos and stuff like that07:15
didrocks(I remember a LP:# ...)07:15
didrockspersia: I think having commit rights is well different07:15
didrocksand this kind of responsibality will make you check things 3 or 4 times :)07:15
didrocksand as I said "when I don't know, I ask"07:16
persiaFair enough.07:16
sorendidrocks: You mention the server team a bit in your application. How have you found working with the server team? Is there anything we could do to improve?07:16
didrocksseb128 and dholbach  are used that I bothered them with question07:16
didrockssoren: I must say that I worked less recently with the desktop team. desktop team is time consuming :)07:17
didrocksbut well, I really want to get involved in both team07:17
didrocksI find there very kind people and I think it's easy to get involved07:17
didrocksI hope that, for instance, integration of upstrart, writing event script can make people join the team07:17
didrocksupstart*07:17
didrocksfor improvement, well07:18
didrocksI think more call for volonteer in special project can be a great help in that07:18
sorenReally? That's interesting.07:18
didrocksas I get involved with removal of "multiuser" in init scripts :)07:19
sorenI think we often tend to aim wide to reach more people, but perhaps we should be more specific and just ask more often?07:19
didrocksyeah, because people are some times, a little bit afraid, I reckon07:20
dholbachthat reminds me of james_w saying "if people scratch their own itches, maybe we need more itching powder" :)07:20
sorenHeh :)07:20
didrocksknowing that "I can help on that" is easier for them to start07:20
didrocksdholbach: that's true :)07:20
dholbachdidrocks: one thing I was really interested to read was your experience with Africedu - was it an experience you'd recommend to somebody else? would you do it again? what was the most challenging thing for you?07:20
didrocksAfricedu was really a great experience07:20
didrocksI think I can share the video (30 minutes) of all the project07:21
didrocksI would recommend to everyone who has a lot of time (one year project)07:21
dholbachdidrocks: I'd be very very very interested to see it07:21
didrocksthe non governemntal organization still exists07:21
sorendholbach: Don't get any ideas. We need you here :)07:21
didrocksit has 10 years now07:21
didrocksevery one, with a new team a new African country07:22
didrocksso, it's really a human adventure07:22
didrockswithin the team (working together…)07:22
dholbachthat sounds absolutely fantastic07:22
didrocksand in communication, working with people with different way of living, culture…07:22
didrockssharing knowledge, etc.07:22
didrocksthe most challening part is as usual07:23
didrocksmoney!07:23
didrocksit's was quite hard to raise enough founds07:23
didrocksto ship computers there07:23
didrocksthe most easy part is to find computers :)07:23
dholbachOk, let's chat about that some other time again - maybe you should write a long blog post about what you did there :-)07:23
dholbachsoren, persia: any more questions?07:23
persiaAlso, you mention an interest in a content control mechanism.  Last month, it was mentioned that Ubuntu ME and ichthux both claim to have one on their websites.  Is your solution similar to the ones used there, or independent?07:24
didrocksdholbach: for sure, it's quite old now, but why not, posting with the video :)07:24
sorenNo, I'm good :)07:24
didrockspersia: my solution is independant.; I search a lot time for such controls07:24
didrocksbut there aren't at all user friendly to me07:24
didrocksyou can find the result of my research at https://edge.launchpad.net/gchildcare07:25
didrocks(if you want, I can give you more direct pointers)07:25
didrocksbut they are not integrated in the desktop environment07:25
didrocksI really want to follow some KISS rules07:25
persiaDo you have any plans to coordinate with others to build a content control model that can be shared by all interested flavours?07:25
didrocksI have already a guy with another team who joined me07:26
didrocksand a OOo developper who wants to develop a plugin on it07:26
didrocks(so, I have still to develop the plugin mecanism ;))07:26
persiaOK.  I'm good.07:26
dholbachVotes07:26
dholbach+107:26
soren+1!07:27
persia+107:27
dholbachcongratulations didrocks!07:27
didrocksdholbach: thanks \o/07:27
dholbach:-)07:27
* persia wonders if we oughtn't use MootBot07:27
huatscongratulations my friend !07:27
jonocongrats didrocks!! :)07:27
dholbachpersia: maybe next time? :)07:28
didrocksthanks huats , it will be your turn soon :)07:28
* didrocks hugs jono07:28
huatsdidrocks: let's see...07:28
dholbachnext up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristopheSauthier/MOTUApplication07:28
persiadholbach, Sounds like a plan.07:28
huatshey everyone07:28
dholbachhuats: you've been quite involved in the Desktop team as well - what was your experience like? what do you think should be easier?07:29
huatsI think my experience was great :)07:29
huatsthe guy are really great07:29
huatsseb128 is always present by instance07:29
huatsmay be it might be interesting to continue the work that was started by norsetto to know the states of the various packages07:30
huatsI think that right now the centralised model we are using in the distribution of work is not optimal07:30
dholbachwhat could be improved there? have a link to the page?07:30
huatsand a webpage listing the various states would be better07:31
persiahttp://norsetto.890m.com/desktop_packages.php07:31
dholbachpersia: gracias07:31
huatsthanks persia07:31
huatsI think integrating that and most of all, using it might be a more  efficient way07:31
huatsto distribute the work07:32
huatsI have talked a bit with seb about that07:32
persiahuats, You mention you dislike the merging process, and raise this tracker in discussion of the Desktop Team experience.  How would you adjust or improve the workflow if you were responsible for a new definition?07:32
huatsclearly it was a question of lack of time if it hasn't been done so far07:32
dholbachdo you have examples of what should be changed on there to make the Desktop team more efficient?07:32
huatspersia: I will start with your question (sorry dholbach)07:33
dholbachhuats: take your time07:33
huatspersia: I said it was one of the thing I like the least07:33
huatssince there was something to fond :)07:33
huatsfound07:33
huatsas I said07:33
huatsI haven't done tons merges07:34
huatsand that is probably the reason07:34
huatspersia: I really think that may be using bzr (or svn in the debian collaboration) might be a solution07:35
huatsto ease the process07:35
huatsbesides07:35
persiahuats, How so?  Do you mean the manual merge effort, or the tracking of necessary variance?  You mention working upstream to avoid needing to merge (which is nice), but there are cases where we cannot do that.07:35
huatsI do think that the workflow is great as it is, and I don't see how we can simplify it07:36
huatspersia: one of the advantage of using a VCS might be the revision grouping of modifications07:37
huatsin the same revision you will likely to find things that are related07:37
huatsso you can sort them more easily, and keep the one you need07:37
huatsthe manual merge effort still have to be here...07:38
huatsand of course there are cases where the upstream collaboration is not possible...07:38
huatspersia: did I answer your question and can deal with dholbach one ?07:39
persiaSure.07:40
huatsdholbach: so improvments...07:40
huatsso far we are working mainly on a centralized way, where people go to the channel and ask seb : what can I do...07:40
huatshe is the only one who is keeping records of the stuffs that are needed to do07:41
huatsit might be better to use a common place to store that07:41
huatsthere used to be a wiki page07:41
huatsbut it was not very useful...07:41
huatssince you have to deal with colors and stuffs like that07:42
huatshaving the same kind of page that persia pointed out in the url07:42
huatsmight be better07:42
dholbachso you're saying that it's not clear enough to newcomers what needs doing and what needs special attention?07:42
huatsyou can annotate it, saying that you wokr on that (to avoid dupplicate work)07:43
huatsexactly07:43
huatsand you have the various versions available...07:43
dholbachsounds like a good topic for ubuntu-desktop@, what do you think? :)07:43
huatswell it helps for the beginners AND for people who are daily working on it07:43
huatsabsolutly07:44
huats:)07:44
huatsthere was a thread already07:44
huats(in september if I remember well)07:44
huatsbut it was too close of the intrepid release I think...07:45
dholbachthat might be07:45
huats(and you need some time to be able to set an infrastucture)07:45
huatseven if in that case, it is almost done07:45
huats(apparently vuntz is using the same kind of stuffs in the opensuse team)07:45
dholbachhuats: can you give us a quick update from the MOTU Mentoring Reception?07:46
huatsdholbach: sure :)07:46
huatswe have currently something like 20 mentee in the junior program07:46
huatsand 2-3 in the senior one07:46
huatswe are a bit short on mentors available everywhere except in europe (the location is important because we try to match mentee/mentors in the same timezone)07:47
huatscurrently the main problem is that people sometime drop the mentoring program after a few days...07:47
huatsWe have noticed that if your mentee is still here after 2 weeks you have good chances to keep him07:48
huatsI am thinking of asking every mentee to have like a bugpage, where he put the things he did...07:49
huats(using the example of the great didrocks)07:49
dholbachsounds like that would help to keep track of what the mentees are doing07:49
didrocks(I told myself, "hum… it reminds me something"… ;))07:49
huatsso that it will be easier for us (the mentoring team) to notice people who are not doing stufs lately....07:49
huatsand so we can contact him quite fastly enough...07:50
huatsdholbach: exactly07:50
huatscurrently I am sending an email to every mentors (something like every2 monthes)07:50
huatsand I am dealing with the answers...07:50
dholbachhuats: who's helping out in the mentoring reception at the moment? is it just you?07:50
huatsdholbach: were a 3 in the reception team07:51
huatsporthose and nxvl07:51
huatsbut they are currently quite busy07:51
huatsso for some monthes I a bit alone... but they promised me they will be back ;)07:51
huatsand I trust them :)07:51
dholbachok :)07:51
dholbacha question that was bound to come up: Mr 4k: how do we get those 4000 people in Paris to help out in Ubuntu development?07:52
dholbach:-)07:52
huatsLOL07:52
huatsby doing more and more stuffs in France :)07:52
jonoI think it should be a requirement of his approval07:52
jonoat least 50% become MOTU in a year :)07:52
huatsjono: thanks :)07:52
huatsI might need some help in the mentoring reception then :)07:52
huatsdholbach: I think bugs jams are a very good start07:53
dholbachhuats: so you're going to do the "developers developers developers" dance in Paris next time?07:53
huatswe are doing one in paris for the global one07:53
huats(didrocks chairing it)07:53
huatsand I am doing one in Toulouse too07:54
didrocks(http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/What-to-do-after-Fosdem-Bug-jam! for more information)07:54
huatsyeah, if we are doing it with didrocks :)07:54
dholbachdidrocks, huats: promise? :)07:54
dholbachok... I'm all set :-)07:54
dholbachsoren, persia: any more questions?07:55
huatsyou are of course invite to take pictures ;)07:55
huatsor to participate07:55
huats:)07:55
sorenNope, I'm good :)07:55
dholbachhuats: I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate "developer" into French :)07:55
huatsthe same word07:55
didrocksdholbach: développeur (2 p) :)07:55
huatsdeveloppeur07:55
dholbachthat's easy enough then :)07:56
persiasoren, Anything?07:58
dholbach<soren> Nope, I'm good :)07:58
dholbachpersia: anything else from you?07:58
sorenWhat dholbach said :)07:58
persiaNothing else from me.08:01
dholbachOK08:01
dholbachVotes08:01
persia+108:01
dholbach+1 from me08:01
dholbachsoren: Señor Hansen? :)08:02
soren+1 from me too!08:03
dholbachcongratulations huats!08:03
dholbach:-)08:03
* didrocks hugs huats 08:03
* pochu cheers huats :)08:03
didrockscongrats my friend :)08:03
huatsthanks guys !08:03
jonocongrats huats! :)08:03
* soren had an angry baby that needed a bit of attention.. Sorry.08:03
* huats hugs didrocks dholbach pochu persia soren08:03
dholbachsoren: I thought you wanted to keep the suspense high :)08:03
dholbachLaney: around?08:03
didrocksdholbach: I'm sure of that, soren likes this ^^08:04
jonosoren, drama queen...making huats wait :)08:04
huats;)08:04
sorenjono: Yeah, I'm like that. :)08:04
jonohehe08:04
huatssoren: I knew it08:04
jonoLaney...a man named after my very first guitar amplifier08:04
dholbachno surprises there08:04
jonothat has to be a reason for approval08:04
* jono chuckles08:04
dholbachI hope Laney is not having second thoughts08:04
didrocksjono: :)08:05
dholbachquoting from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IainLane/MOTUApplication - section Areas of Improvement: "Iain is unfortunately not very good at applying for MOTU when he should, often waiting some months too long. "08:05
didrocksdholbach: that's quite a good quotation which can be verified :)08:06
pochuI guess he hasn't practiced very much :)08:06
didrocksI am sorry, I really have to go to work now (more than one hour of transportation, Paris \o/)08:07
persiaWell, perhaps this is the practice run :)08:07
didrocksso you later guys and thanks again ;)08:07
didrockssee*08:07
dholbachpersia, soren: should we wait a few minutes for Laney to show up or organise an impromptu meeting or ask to show up in the next meeting?08:08
dholbachor is there a different option you see?08:08
persiaI'm for waiting up to 7 minutes, and then asking for attendance at the next meeting.08:09
sorenI'm with persia.08:09
dholbachalrighty08:09
sorenUnless the time is bad for Laney, though.08:09
dholbachAFAIK he lives in the UK.08:09
persiaWell, that's the asking part.  If it's not good, we can expect him to respond, or reschedule.08:09
sorenOk, so 1700 UTC should be good for him, I suspect.08:10
huatshe was here at the begnning of the meeting08:11
dholbachhuats: I don't think he replied here08:12
sorenHe was?08:12
persiaNot in my backscroll, but perhaps not set Away.08:12
huatsdholbach: oh08:12
huatsmay be I mixed it indeed...08:13
dholbachlast thing he said yesterday in #ubuntu-motu:    [23:11 UTC]  * Laney cuddles Debian      :)08:13
huats:)08:14
dholbachpersia: do you think you can send Laney a mail about it?08:17
persiaSure.08:17
dholbachI'd take the action points of processing the applications of huats and didrocks :)08:17
dholbachNext meeting: Feb 26th, 17:00 UTC.08:18
dholbachAny other business?08:18
dholbachGoing once08:19
dholbachtwice08:19
dholbachThanks everybody. Adjourned.08:19
huatsdholbach: I have to go08:21
huats(going to work)08:21
dholbachhuats: have a great day08:21
huatsthanks everyone08:21
huatsdholbach: I am sure it will :)08:21
=== mvo__ is now known as mvo
Laneyoh CRAP!09:44
soreno/09:52
dholbachWe're back for an impromptu meeting of the MOTU Council because of mis-scheduling... or something.09:52
Laney:$09:52
dholbachpersia: want to drive MootBot?09:52
boredandbloggingthere is an irc council meeting in a few minutes09:53
dholbachboredandblogging: takes ~an hour?09:53
dholbachI mean... does your meeting roughly take an hour?09:54
soren#ubuntu-mc-meeting?09:54
boredandbloggingdholbach: an hour should be fine09:54
persiasoren, Not logged.09:54
dholbachsoren: we could do it afterwards?09:54
* persia won't be available in an hour09:54
sorenpersia: Point.09:54
dholbachgeser, soren, Laney: would you guys be there?09:55
LaneyI'm here all day09:55
sorenYes.09:55
Laneybesides 1-2pm09:55
* dholbach would be there too09:55
geserdholbach: that would also give me an hour for a crash review of Laney application09:55
dholbachexcellent09:55
* Laney sets numerous alarms09:55
dholbachlet's recovene in an hour then09:55
Laney!schedule09:55
ubottuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases09:55
Laneyerm09:55
* Laney cannot remember the command09:56
persiaLaney, It's disabled for now.09:56
Laneyright09:56
dholbachthanks boredandblogging09:56
persiaLaney, Essentially, Supybot needs a plugin to parse Google Calendar feeds.09:56
boredandbloggingelky, jussi01, Pici, Pricey: ping10:04
elkyo hai10:04
jussi01o/10:04
boredandblogginghello!10:04
jussi01where is nal?10:05
elkynot here unless he has to be, i'd guess10:05
Priceypong10:06
boredandbloggingshould we give nalioth a couple of minutes?10:07
elkyhe appears to be detached, judging by his /away10:08
jussi01Pici: said he is busy, no?10:08
elkywe also have a quorum here, and a queue waiting behind us10:08
boredandbloggingtrue10:09
jussi01well lets et it hppening10:09
elkysomeone got a link to an agenda?10:09
boredandblogginghttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda10:09
jussi01ok10:10
boredandbloggingthen let me start10:10
boredandbloggingi realize me being on the council is a bit odd10:10
boredandbloggingbeen around the community for a couple of years10:10
boredandbloggingspend quite a bit of time on irc10:11
boredandbloggingwhile I haven't done any ops work10:11
boredandbloggingthink I've been involved in lots of different aspects10:11
boredandbloggingand hope that I can be of some help10:11
boredandbloggingparticularly in helping the Irc Team communicate better with the rest of the community10:11
boredandbloggingeven though Irc so important10:12
boredandbloggingit seems, at least to me, that its hard for the rest of the community10:13
boredandbloggingto know whats is going on with it10:13
boredandbloggingjust want to help smooth all that part out :-)10:13
boredandbloggingthats all I got10:13
boredandblogginganything more on that or shall we move on?10:14
jussi01I got nothing to add. elky Pricey??10:15
jussi01except, welcome ;)10:15
boredandbloggingjussi01: thanks10:15
elkyno, i'm distracted in several directions at the moment. dont expect immediate answers.10:15
jussi01ok, lets move on, if Pricey wants say something then he can in a min.10:16
Priceynot sure its a dicussion point10:16
boredandbloggingthen IRC contributors team?10:17
PriceyCurrently we have the ubuntu-irc team, for 'reccomended operators'.10:19
Pricey(I don't think it is technically needed any more for ubottu bt access)10:19
PriceyThe CC asked we start thinking about a process for approving Ubuntu membership.10:19
elkydefine 'contributor' in terms of IRC. and what scope this involves in terms of what channels10:20
Priceyyeah...10:20
PriceyThis isn't like the forums, we can't easily see other people's activities unless we were personally in that channel and have logs.10:21
jussi01should it not then be limited to publically logged chans?10:22
Priceyjussi01: i've heard the user with the nick "asiudj" has been great, can you go review logs for him on planet.ubuntu.com and come back to us with a report?10:22
elkyjussi01, depends. do you want to trawl #ubuntu logs anyway?10:22
jussi01hrm10:23
boredandbloggingask them to provide some evidence from logs in irclogs.u.c?10:24
Priceybah, i was reading planet, yeah meant irclogs.10:24
elkyboredandblogging, the problem with doing that is that you'll guaranteed get the good stuff, and not the bad stuff like them telling someone to stfu or rm....10:25
Priceyboredandblogging: that could be very selective and overwhelming. I want about 3 months contribution I think, and reviewing 60+ days of logs to see what he's done in this other random channel?10:25
boredandbloggingelky: is that the problem with any evidence that a candidate would submit?10:27
elkyboredandblogging, forums are far more searchable than mbs of irc logs.10:27
boredandbloggingtrue10:27
Priceythe original memberhsip teams didn't mind that what the candidate produced would be selective, regional ones still don't10:28
Priceyso i htink we can ignore that10:28
Priceybut they base a lot of "is this person a good contributor to ubuntu's irc community" on cheers from the ircc for example10:29
Priceyand we wouldn't have cheered for that unless we had 1st hand experience with the person over a long time.... an operator10:29
elkyyeah. i'm not sure there's a list of checkboxes you can draw up for that either10:31
elkyit'd be a list of 1. and 100% interpretive10:31
Priceywe have just cheered if we felt they deserved it10:31
elkyexactly10:32
elkyjussi01, Pici, boredandblogging any input?10:32
PriceyCalendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | Check out the scheduled meetings at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar10:33
Priceybah10:33
=== Pricey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | Check out the scheduled meetings at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
boredandbloggingnot sure how to do it without some logs10:34
Priceyoperators that operate in the main ubuntu channels are going to be the easiest people to talk abot10:34
Pricey*about10:34
boredandbloggingwould people to able to nominate themselves?10:35
Priceywell we haven't got any kind of process written down yet, but i assume so as everyone else does it that way10:36
elkyi kind of hope not. we'd have every second banned person applying.10:36
Priceyand that's not going to make it fun, i see what you're getting at10:36
elkyespecially the ones who actually tell us they're going to get us sacked and take down the channels10:36
elkythose are the most fun of all.10:36
* elky prods the screen.10:39
boredandblogginglike RMBs, why not ask for testimonials from operators when users nominate themselves?10:39
PriceySee if I had my way, we would probably only really be dealing with main ubuntu operators, maybe a very small number of people who would probably have turned down +o etc. That's probably not good enough.10:39
PriceyWhat kinds of people do we envisage coming to us for membership?10:41
elkyboredandblogging, the problem with this is a textbook Catch-22. Anyone who wants to be an op is clearly insane and should not be. Anyone who doesn't want to be is clearly sane and shoud.10:41
elkythe ones of us who are -- are the gulliable few from the second category10:42
boredandbloggingare we setting the bar too high? this team is to recognize their good work10:44
boredandbloggingnot giving them the keys to anything10:44
PriceyIs there a demand for this process? Can you think of more then 5 people you would suggest come to membership for this?10:45
elkyPricey, well, if you want my honest, battleworn and slightly cynical opinion: the people who are least qualified to. the genuine ones are not actually going to ask.10:45
elkyPricey, currently no. I dont even know who the active helpers are at this present time.10:48
=== thekorn__ is now known as thekorn
elkywe're running out of time too10:50
jussi01Sorry guys, had a very important phone call10:50
elkyboredandblogging, Pricey, Pici, jussi0110:50
elkyi think we need to think about this point some more. can we move on to the last so we can hand over to the patient motus?10:50
jussi011 sec10:51
jussi01I honestly can see some demand for mebership through IRC contribution, BUT! it seems to me, people hwo actually contribute on IRC also contribute other places, so should be handled buy the regional board10:51
PriceyUnless they are someone from #ubuntu-ops? In which case, they might just contribute there?10:52
elkyin which case we've probably already assimilated them. all ops should be members first, imho.10:53
elkybut, this needs to be thought about some more, and we're out of time.10:53
jussi01yes, but still why should we deal with it? they go to the regional board, with us in tow, and the regional bord makes the decision - we just cheer/give evidence10:53
elkyboredandblogging, you have another item waiting. were you invisaging that taking any more than 5 minutes?10:54
boredandbloggingno, its just grunt work stuff...10:55
boredandbloggingthinking we should post logs, summaries, do the team reports, etc, et10:55
elkythat sounds like volunteering then.10:55
jussi01I see no real reason to make 'yet anothe member approval place'10:55
boredandbloggingi can kick off the reporting10:55
boredandbloggingunless someone else wants to do it10:55
elkyboredandblogging, we already post logs... or more to the point canonical does on our behalf.10:56
elkysecondly, summaries of what?10:56
elky'hi, we banned joe, billy and mary bob today.10:56
boredandbloggingany decisions, highlights of these meetings10:56
Priceybullet pointsont he wiki?10:57
boredandbloggingPricey: yeah10:57
Priceyi think the rest of ubuntu would like these reports summarised in the monthly team reports too10:57
boredandbloggingyes, the monthly team reports10:57
elkyPricey, saying what exactly though?10:57
elkythere's absolutely no way i could summarise a month of my op stuff10:58
boredandbloggingno, just summarizing the council meeting10:58
boredandbloggingis that it for today?11:00
elkyuh ok then. i dont actually see anything reportworthy from this meeting though.11:00
dholbachbullet points are OK :)11:00
jussi01thats it for me11:01
jussi01hi dholbach11:01
dholbachhiya jussi0111:01
boredandbloggingsomeone want to set up the next meeting?11:01
elkyboredandblogging, want is probably the wrong word to use.11:02
boredandblogginghah, we can do it later11:02
elkygood. because now that this is over, i can have friday drinks.11:02
boredandbloggingelky: have fun11:02
jussi01same day, same time next month? :P11:02
jussi01Ok, then, meeting over. MOYU's all yours :)11:03
dholbachgracias!11:03
jussi01MOTU's ;)11:03
elkyjussi01, dunno at this point. friday evenings are not the stable type for organising things.11:03
boredandbloggingthanks  everyone11:03
dholbachLaney, geser, soren, persia(?)? :)11:03
Laneyhowdy11:04
dholbachI hope everybody else is busy sponsoring and reviewing11:05
* dholbach is not going to accept any other excuses :)11:05
jpdsMorning.11:05
* persia really isn't here, despite what the client may claim.11:05
dholbachpersia: ok11:05
dholbachsoren, geser: around? well prepared? :)11:06
sorenYes.11:06
geseryes, I'm ready for a second try :)11:07
dholbach#startmeeting11:07
MootBotMeeting started at 05:07. The chair is dholbach.11:07
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]11:07
dholbach[TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IainLane/MOTUApplication11:07
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IainLane/MOTUApplication11:07
dholbachhiya Laney :)11:07
Laneyhello11:07
Laneyapologies for the false start11:07
dholbachno worries, I think we as the MC want to show that we're flexible after ... some public display of procrastination with other applications :)11:08
Laneyheh11:08
dholbachLaney: so you're interested in getting stuff upstream earlier and in a more streamlined way - do you have any ideas on how we could do that? is there anything missing today?11:08
LaneyWell11:08
LaneyI don't think there's really anything wrong with our processes11:09
Laneyjust that they don't really emphasise the importance of getting stuff back to our upstreams as much as they should (IMO)11:09
dholbachis it a matter of education and documentation, you think?11:09
Laneypretty much11:09
LaneyAsking for bug links before sposoring patches, for example11:10
dholbachvolunteering for a UDW session next time? :)11:10
LaneyI'd be happy to do that!11:10
dholbachexcellent :)11:10
dholbachdo you make use of the submittodebian tool?11:10
Laneyyeah, that's how I submit bugs back11:10
dholbachnice11:10
Laneyit seems to work well11:11
Laneyexcept I wish it would know how to ignore maintainer field changes11:11
dholbachsounds like a feature request :)11:11
dholbachyou mention agda in your application, what is it?11:11
Laneyyeah, I started working on it11:11
Laneyah yes11:11
dholbachgreat11:11
Laneythis is a dependently typed programming language which I'm using in my PhD11:11
Laney(DTP is a language where types can depend on values - a simple example is you can have a type of vectors of a certain length)11:12
dholbachah I see11:12
Laneyhaving better types in your programs gives more assurances that what you're writing is correct11:12
dholbachHave you found somebody else with an interest in it already to start getting it in Debian/Ubuntu?11:12
LaneyI talked to sistpoty a while ago and he said he'd be happy to look at it too11:13
dholbachok11:13
dholbachIn your application you say: "I also support the mighty Nottingham Forest, currently battling their way to safety in the Championship after a shaky couple of months in the relegation zone." - what does that mean exactly? :)11:13
Laneybut I discovered that we're missing some dependencies11:13
Laneyhah!11:13
LaneyThis is the football team in my city11:14
Laneyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Forest11:14
MootBotLINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_Forest11:14
dholbachahhh, it was a bit misleading - I was expecting some tree hugging activity going on there ;-)11:14
Laneysadly nothing so noble11:14
dholbachgeser, soren: do you have questions too?11:15
geseryes :)11:15
* Laney hides11:15
sorengeser: You go first.11:16
geserLaney: I read that your are interested in haskell packages and also done a ghc transition already. I've helped with haskell transitions in the past and it was a hell to get the build order right. What's your impression from the haskell transition?11:17
Laneygeser: Yes. Basically I just built all of the packages and then drew a graph of which ones had unsatisfiable build-deps11:17
Laneydebian-haskell are talking about how to get past this11:17
LaneyI think a current idea is to use provides in a clever way11:18
geserso the haskell packages are in a usable state currently in jaunty again?11:18
LaneyUntil the next GHC upload breaks everything, yes11:19
Laneybut we probably won't get another one this cycle11:19
Laneyand things should be better for 6.1011:19
Laneyso maybe we only have to do this pain once more...11:19
sorenDoes every ghc upload break things?11:19
LaneyThey don't guarantee ABI stability11:20
Laneyso potentially11:20
sorenI mean... Even one without any changes in it? Is it that strict?11:20
sorenOr just ones that actually change internal data structures?11:20
Laneythe problem this time was slightly different though11:20
sorenOr whatever.11:20
Laneythe maintainer +dfsged the upstream version11:20
Laneyand therefore a lot of the dependent packages had to be rebuilt11:20
geserLaney: and a last question: what's your impression/expierence with working with Debian in general?11:21
Laneybut in general, every upstream release (not each Debian one) will break ABI11:21
Laneygeser: Mixed to be honest11:21
geserwhy?11:21
LaneyI love working with packaging teams in Debian, because you get a lot of people with specialist knowledge all working together on a focused set of packages11:22
Laneybut I've found some maintianers unwilling to work with me on things11:22
Laneysome people prefer to do everything themselves11:22
gesersoren: your turn11:23
Laneyand separately, I always feel guilty asking individuals for sponsorship11:23
geserso the Ubuntu sponsoring models is better?11:23
sorenI'm good, actually. My question was already answered.11:23
Laneygeser: I prefer it because sponsors can take from it when they choose11:24
Laneyinstead of being pinged11:24
dholbachgeser, soren: all set?11:25
sorenYes!11:25
Laneya lot of Debian teams have more DDs than contributors, so there's a lot of blocking on a single personw11:25
geseryes, you can take over now again11:25
Laneywhich doesn't feel fair to me11:25
dholbach[VOTE] Should Iain Lane become a MOTU?11:25
MootBotPlease vote on:  Should Iain Lane become a MOTU?.11:25
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:25
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:25
soren+1!11:25
dholbach+111:25
geser+111:25
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:25
MootBot+1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:25
soren+111:25
MootBot+1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:25
dholbach#endvote11:25
dholbacherr11:26
dholbach... whatever11:26
dholbach[AGREED] Iain Lane to become MOTU11:26
MootBotAGREED received:  Iain Lane to become MOTU11:26
Laneyit's [ENDVOTE]11:26
Laney;)11:26
dholbach[ENDVOTE]11:26
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 311:26
dholbachthanks Laney :)11:26
Laney\o/11:26
soren\m/11:26
Laneynice one chaps11:26
dholbach[TOPIC] Any other business?11:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business?11:26
dholbachnothing from me11:26
sorenNor me.11:27
gesernope11:27
dholbach#endmeeting11:27
MootBotMeeting finished at 05:27.11:27
dholbachthanks a bunch everybody!11:27
dholbachcongratulations Laney :)11:27
Laneythanks a bunch11:27
* dholbach will do the honours11:27
dholbachLaney: shall I directly add you to ubuntu-universe-sponsors? :)11:27
Laneyyes please11:28
dholbachthanks11:28
=== Rafik_ is now known as Rafik
=== thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak
slangasekmorning15:01
robbiewhi15:01
ScottKo/15:01
* lool waves15:01
dendrobateso/15:01
pgranerYo15:02
pittihello15:02
cjwatsonhiya15:02
pittidon't we have the release team meeting now?15:03
slangasekyes15:04
slangasekstill doing a head count15:04
slangasekmdz and rickspencer send their regrets15:04
* rtg is here15:04
slangaseklool: will davidm be joining us also?15:04
loolslangasek: No, he gave me his apologies15:04
slangasekok15:04
loolHe had a conflicting meeting15:04
pgranerslangasek: rtg will be the kernel rep this week15:04
slangasekRiddell, sbeattie: ping?15:05
sbeattiehey15:05
slangasekmorning15:05
Riddellhi15:05
slangasek#startmeeting15:05
MootBotMeeting started at 09:05. The chair is slangasek.15:05
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:05
slangasekand we're off :)15:05
slangasek[TOPIC] Outstanding actions15:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Outstanding actions15:06
slangasekI sent out a list of these after the last meeting; I'll skip the ones that I know are resolved15:06
slangasek(or that are going to be covered later)15:07
slangasekrobbiew: is dbarth on the google calendar invite list for this meeting?15:07
slangasekI forgot to include him on the agenda mail :(15:07
robbiewslangasek: yes15:07
slangasekok15:07
slangasekbut unavailable today, I guess15:07
loolslangasek: I invited him, didn't see him right now15:08
slangasekpgraner: hmm, looks like we have a carry-over item to discuss milestones in the kernel team15:08
loolrobbiew: I didn't seem him in the google calendar event15:08
robbiewhmm15:08
* lool added him now15:08
robbiewthnx...strange15:08
slangasekpgraner: and we didn't get a chance to talk about the "kernel to userspace" communique during the sprint - at the end of the meeting, can we schedule some time to talk about these two items?15:08
robbiewI added him, but perhaps it didn't update for all meetings15:08
pgranerslangasek: we can talk later this afternoon if you want...15:08
slangaseklool: did you chase up bug #299847?15:09
ubottuLaunchpad bug 299847 in libipc-sharelite-perl "armel build failure (without ignoring testsuite results)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29984715:09
loolslangasek: I delegated to ogra15:09
loologra: ^15:09
ograyeah15:09
pgranerslangasek: I'm in calls for two hours right after this meeting....15:09
loolAnd asked that he sends his findings on the bug15:09
slangasekpgraner: ok - at the end of the meeting, let's figure out a time that works?15:09
ograseems the porter boxes and buildds have issues all other armel devices dont show15:09
pgranerslangasek: ack15:09
cjwatsonogra: but on the upside at least it reproduces on the porter box, eh?15:10
ograi'm just testbuilding on qemu, it builds fine on all my arm devices here15:10
ograyes15:10
slangaseklool, ogra: where does that leave us, then?  with a critical bug that needs fixed on the buildd/porter boxes, or a standing disabled testsuite for release?15:10
loolslangasek: We'll continue investigating to understand severity of the issue, the fact that it only happens on one kernel / hardware seems to imply it might not be critical for the other platforms15:10
ograporter shows the same behavior as the buildds15:10
slangaseklool: right; do we have to worry about misbuilds?15:10
loolHard to say what might be using the same interface; I don't this particular package or other perl packages in the stack are in danger though15:11
* ogra waits for the qemu build to get to the make test stage just this very moment15:11
loolI just fear we discover this causes a class of syscalls to misbehave15:11
loolHopefully not creating broken binaries15:11
slangasekok15:12
loolslangasek: So we'll continue debugging, nothing to report here apart slow progress in the research15:12
ograqemu is fine too btw15:13
slangasekalright.  Given the size of the "makes a class of syscalls misbehave" unknown, we probably need a final assessment of this well before beta - what are the chances we'll know what's going on two weeks from now at the next meeting?15:13
ogra(i wouldnt have expected differently)15:13
loologra: Do you think you can finish investigation, perhaps with help from kernel or foundation folks?15:14
ograyeah, kernel and IS i think15:14
ograi have no clue what they are running on these machines15:14
loolThe kernel is older than the ubuntu jaunty armel ones, so this might be a cause15:14
ograright15:15
pgranerogra: ping amitk if you need kernel assistance15:15
lool(the buildd hardware is not supported by our jaunty kernels)15:15
slangasekok, moving on15:15
slangasek * slangasek to ask armel/versatile/d-i to be added to ISO tracker15:15
ograpgraner, yep, i'll also need someone from IS to assist15:15
loolslangasek: Could you also add NSLU2 and N2100 images?15:15
slangasekI thought I did the asking, but I don't find it in my logs and it's not done; so I'll follow up on this today :/15:15
slangaseklool: we're building all of those images currently?15:15
loolslangasek: Also, make sure to reference the netboot images15:15
ograslangasek, versatile and nslu2 are netboot only15:15
loolslangasek: We do, as inherited from Debian15:16
ogranot sure about n210015:16
loolslangasek: NSLU2 is one of the board we have available in the mobile team and we're trying to enable15:16
slangasekok, so what we need is 'netboot arm' added to the tracker15:16
slangasek * lool, davidm to provide MID test case documentation for the ISO tracker15:16
slangaseklool: was this done?15:16
loolslangasek: I delegated to persia15:16
ograslangasek, a link to a howto on the wiki and to the dir that holds the netboot image would suffice15:16
loolpersia: ^15:16
loolI know he was blocking on the move of testcases to testscases.qa.u.c15:17
slangasekhmm, ok15:17
* persia is currently drafting, and expects to have something on the wiki soon. Integration with testcases.qa.ubuntu.com will take longer due to issues with multiple flavour support for that site.15:17
loolpersia: Will you be done on Monday, before A5 testing begins?15:18
slangasekRiddell: I see bug #289907 is fixed, kudos15:18
persiaShould be done in a couple hours.15:18
ubottuLaunchpad bug 289907 in qt4-x11 "Event handler drops some events when rate of incoming events is high" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/28990715:18
slangasekand that's it for outstanding actions - everything else was taken care of15:18
persiaIs Alpha 5 next week?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule says the week after.15:18
slangasekalpha 5 on the 26th15:19
loolSorry, it's in two weeks, I'm confused with FF15:19
slangasekwould have had the answer more quickly if gnome-panel's calendar wasn't broken for me right now ;)15:19
slangasekok, team reports15:19
slangasek[TOPIC] QA team15:19
MootBotNew Topic:  QA team15:19
sbeattieThe QA team is still looking for new features to test on an upcoming testing day15:20
sbeattiePlease add them to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/Features15:20
sbeattieDaily smoke testing continues apace: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DailySmoke15:20
seb128slangasek: use evolution directly ;-)15:20
sbeattieWe're ramping up a new person for hardware testing (fader), but he's still figuring out our infrastructure, so we don't have anything to report on that front.15:20
slangasekseb128: I have enough apps left open without adding evo :(15:20
faderAlso in QA, I'm working on getting the hardware certification tests running on a regular basis across all the hardware I have access to15:20
faderBut I am currently blocking on access to some systems and on some work by cr3 and schwuk15:21
faderHopefully next week I'll be able to say at least a little something useful :)15:21
slangasek:)15:21
sbeattiethat's all for us for this week.15:21
slangasekok, cheers15:21
slangasekskipping over Desktop for the moment, at pitti's request15:22
pittiI'm ready15:22
slangasekoh15:22
pittibut as you wish15:22
slangasek[TOPIC] Desktop team15:22
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop team15:22
pittihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus15:22
slangasekwell then :)15:22
pittiis our detailled report15:22
pittisummary, we are still struggling with a couple of Xish bugs, but by and large the largest blocker is getting the Dx work into jaunty15:22
slangasekdo you have code drops scheduled for that?15:23
pittiwe are asking daily, but we won't get them until next Monday or Tuesday15:23
pittiso far we only have a few internal testers15:23
* slangasek nods15:24
slangasekis there a need for a wider call for testing?15:24
pittiwe'll send one out as soon as it lands15:24
slangasekor should the focus be on getting the code landed in jaunty?15:24
slangasekack15:24
pittioh, internal testin?15:24
slangasekI meant public15:24
pittiit should land in jaunty proper ASAP15:25
slangasekpitti: the status for bug #320632 says "debugging going on" - who's driving this?  based on conversations had with the kernel team during the sprint, I wonder if the remaining issue isn't a kernel regression15:25
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320632 in xfree86-driver-synaptics "tap-to-click and edge-scrolling broken in Jaunty" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32063215:25
pittihowever, on the bright side, all the necessary bugs are filed now15:25
slangaseka plus :)15:26
pittibugs> for the packages we need to fix for notifications15:26
pitti320632> I'll talk to bryce15:26
slangasekalso, is there any other potentially-disruptive spec work we should expect to see landing between now and alpha-5?15:26
pittithe language selector shoudl get a better UI15:27
slangasekrtg: do you have any insight into bug #320632?  Could the issue with side-scroll not working be related to that kernel regression, and is that synaptics reset issue now fixed in the kernel?15:27
pittibut it doesn't change functionality, so it's only intrusive in terms of UIF15:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320632 in xfree86-driver-synaptics "tap-to-click and edge-scrolling broken in Jaunty" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32063215:27
rtgslangasek: I have no idea15:27
slangasekwho would know? apw?15:28
ScottKWRT bugs for notificatios related changes. I've seen bugs filed on Universe packages for this.15:28
ScottKI don't think MOTU is in a position to maintain a bunch of diff for this  and the changes should just be in Main.15:28
* ScottK had thought that was the plan.15:29
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to follow up with kernel team (apw) on the question of bug #320632 being a kernel bug15:29
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to follow up with kernel team (apw) on the question of bug #320632 being a kernel bug15:29
pittiScottK: still good for having them, to attach upstream bug refs and patches to them15:29
ubottuLaunchpad bug 320632 in xfree86-driver-synaptics "tap-to-click and edge-scrolling broken in Jaunty" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32063215:29
ScottKpitti: I think the Ubuntu tasks should be wontfix though.15:29
pittiScottK: for all of them? I don't see why interested people shouldn't do/take them if they want15:30
slangasekthat sounds like a discussion we should take to #ubuntu-devel after?15:30
ScottKOK15:30
slangasekpitti: anything else from your team?15:30
pittinot right now15:30
pittihopefully we'll have some better news next week15:30
slangasek[ACTION] ScottK, pitti, slangasek to follow up on question of DX patches for universe15:30
MootBotACTION received:  ScottK, pitti, slangasek to follow up on question of DX patches for universe15:30
rtgslangasek: the only synaptics patch that I'm aware of is the reset issue (which allows synaptics touchpads to be correctly identified)15:31
slangasekpitti: "we're not breaking the release" is pretty good news as it stands, thanks ;)15:31
slangasekrtg: right - I think the upshot of that bug is that the synaptics X driver now thinks all touchpads support scroll methods that they don't15:32
slangasekrtg: anyway, I've taken an action to discuss this further after the meeting15:32
rtgslangasek: hmm, I'll sic Andy on it since he did the bug work.15:32
slangasek[TOPIC] Mobile team15:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Mobile team15:32
loolOur jaunty roadmap is more or less tracked at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap>.15:32
loolSince last meeting we dropped/postponed endangered specs and we discussed blockers at the sprint, either with foundations or kernel people; in particular toolchain changes (to enable FPU notably) are out of the picture for jaunty (303232).  However we expect to work on random libs to add VFP (FPU-enabled) flavours to t15:32
loolhem ASAP; the list is discussed in 303232.15:33
loolWe assigned actions on other teams such as kernel actions to identified individuals where applicable (e.g. armel config fixes, or missing syscalls on armel).15:33
loolWe'd like to link to netboot images as part of the alpha 5 release announcement even if these aren't self-contained; we will be testing them against the archive around alpha time.15:33
loolWe're looking at some potential last minute work on the kernel to add a new flavour, but it remains uncertain that this will land in time for FF.15:33
loolFinally, we will try to integrate the Poulsbo driver in jaunty as we receive it; first and biggest code drop is expected in the next 10 days.15:33
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus15:33
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus15:33
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap15:33
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap15:33
lool(That's about all the release worthy stuff which I've got)15:33
loolBasically the vfp lib stuff is in flux right now, and the biggest other items are out of our control15:34
slangaseklool: does the state of bug #303232 need to be updated to reflect your comments?  If we're not making toolchain changes, gcc-4.3 seems like the wrong package for the bug to be against?15:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 303232 in gcc-4.3 "armel gcc default optimisations" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30323215:35
loolslangasek: Yes; I'll update the bug when I have a list of bugs for library changes as I don't want to let the submitter think we're dropping the ball on the topic15:35
slangasekok15:35
lool(Got an early list of libs earlier today only)15:35
slangasekyou'll open tasks on each of the libs that are going to be changed?  (You said 'list of bugs')15:36
loolNo, I think I'll open new bugs, one for each lib, due to prior bad experience with a bug with a long list of tasks15:36
loolPerhaps I'll link them to this bug, or another meta bug15:36
slangaseklool: bug #319729 wasn't on your report webpage, but was in the agenda - anything to say about the status there?  Is the course of action clear for resolving it?15:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 319729 in linux "ARM architecture lacks support for pselect() and ppoll()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31972915:37
loolI'm happy to follow the best recommended practice here; I just have had poor experience with things like transition bugs or libv4l enablement and the like15:37
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek, cjwatson, lool to discuss inclusion of ARM netboot images in the alpha-5 release announcement15:37
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek, cjwatson, lool to discuss inclusion of ARM netboot images in the alpha-5 release announcement15:37
loolslangasek: Thanks for pointing it out, I will ad it to our "roadmap"; it's in the hands of the kernel team to bring this problem up to upstream now15:38
slangasekok; I see amitk is assigned to it15:39
slangasekwhen we expect him to have an answer back from upstream?15:39
lool(added to our "roadmap")15:39
slangaseks/when we/when do we/15:39
loolslangasek: I don't know; I asked for this during the sprint and reminded by email recently15:39
lool2 days ago15:39
loolI tried subscribing to the upstream list since a month myself, but my subscription is pending moderation15:40
rtgfrankly, I doubt if he's had time to pursue it.15:40
lool(tried via email and via web)15:40
loolpgraner: Could you make sure amitk has enough time for this, or assign somebody else?15:40
slangaseklool: put another way: what's an appropriate deadline by which this needs to be done, in order to keep ARM on track?15:40
ograthey probably only accept snailmail subscriptions :)15:40
loolslangasek: That's a good question, neither do we know how much ubuntu breaks without this support; I'm told udev will deadlock randomly due to races15:41
ograslangasek, to be honest nobody has seen the bug that can introduce yet15:41
pgranerlool: we are going to have to let a contract to get that done, I'm in process now of working thru it. However I've been on travel for weeks15:41
loolslangasek: So anytime our release team is happy for us to add the syscalls to the kernel, and before release I guess?15:41
slangasekhmm, right15:41
loolpgraner: Sure, thanks15:41
slangaseklool: so it's clear that the solution will be to get the syscalls added?15:42
slangasekas long as that much is clear, we have some time to get the implementation sorted15:42
loolslangasek: I was told by NCommander that this didn't seem to be overly complex -- but he underlined that he isn't enough into kernel stuff to judge -- so that would be the preferred solution, yes15:43
loolI don't know whether any other exist; AFAIK, newer udev just relies on that unconditionally15:43
slangasekok15:43
pgranerslangasek, lool: do we have a bug that *demonstrates* this behavior15:43
ograwe would need to ask Keybuk to provide a testcase15:44
loolpgraner: No; I think Keybuk might have more information as he pointed out this syscalls as required for future upstart15:44
ograhe brought it up15:44
loolISTR he mentionned upstart / init hanging without them15:44
lool*these15:44
ograand udev15:44
cjwatsonit's a race, so a deterministic reproducer will be tough ...15:44
pgranerlool: If we do this it will be expensive and I find it hard to believe if its that big of an issue it has not been fixed upstream yet15:44
loolI don't think he saw udev hanging15:44
Keybukpselect() ?  it's part of POSIX!15:44
NCommanderKeybuk, glibc provides an emulation of it if the kernel doesn't15:44
Keybukit's not been done upstream because Russell King simply doesn't implement anything he doesn't need15:44
cjwatsonNCommander: the emulation doesn't fix the race15:45
* NCommander is now backish for five minutes.15:45
loolpgraner: New udev only came out recently; perhaps it's fixed in 2.6.29 and we don't have it?  I don't know15:45
KeybukNCommander: the emulation suffers the exact race condition the syscall was designed to avoid15:45
pgranerKeybuk: Is the definitely needed for Jaunty? If not we can work it for 9.1015:45
NCommanderKeybuk, no, I know, I'm just saying why glibc has it even though our kernel doesn't :-)15:45
Keybukpgraner: if the syscall is not implemented in the kernel, you will have random hangs in any program that uses pselect() or ppoll()15:45
loolKeybuk: We plan to ship products based on jaunty/arm and tell people to install it; is it a serious issue which will prevent the use of jaunty?15:45
Keybuklool: I believe it is a critical issue15:45
loolTHanks15:46
slangasekKeybuk: can you quantify the probability of such hangs?15:46
Keybukslangasek: no, it's a race condition15:46
KeybukI can describe it15:46
Keybukyou have a main loop15:46
cjwatsona small test program that loops a zillion times around pselect would probably be vaguely helpful15:47
Keybukyour main loop, like just about every other, is a loop around a select() or poll() call that sleeps until there is activity15:47
Keybukyou want that woken up by a particular signal15:47
Keybukbut you don't want those signals otherwise being delivered to your process15:47
slangasekKeybuk: maybe this would be better left for after the meeting then, we've already overrun the mobile team's slot15:47
Keybukso you set a signal mask to include that signal15:47
Keybukand before you select()15:47
Keybukrestore the original signal mask15:47
Keybukselect() with the original signal mask (so the signal can be caught)15:47
Keybukthen restore the previous signal mask again after15:47
slangasekKeybuk: #ubuntu-devel or elsewhere, please15:48
Keybukthe race is that the signal can be delivered between the calls to sigprocmask() and select()15:48
loolslangasek: Any other question on the list of things I dumped?15:48
Keybukif that happens, you will stay in sleep even though the signal has been delivered15:48
slangaseklool: nope, thank you15:48
slangasek[TOPIC] Kernel team15:48
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel team15:48
rtgneed wireless-crda promoted to main (which pitti has promised to do)15:49
slangasekrtg: bug #308387 is a one-liner control file change that's been lingering for a bit; who can take care of getting this fix into the next kernel upload?15:49
ubottuLaunchpad bug 308387 in linux "[Jaunty] trying to overwrite `/usr/include/drm/drm_sarea.h', which is also in package libdrm-dev" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30838715:49
rtgslangasek: I think its done15:49
rtg"Added libdrm-dev as a 'Replaces' to linux-libc-dev" in 2.6.28-8.21 changelog.15:50
slangasekrtg: ah, you closed it an hour ago, ok :)15:51
slangasekwireless-crda> I don't have a bug number on my watch list for that, is there an open bug that should be escalatd?15:51
rtgslangasek: yeah, I've been slogging through several15:51
rtgthere is an MIR15:51
slangasekbug #32580115:52
rtgyes15:52
slangasekwhat does not having wireless-crda block us on?15:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 325801 in ubuntu "Main inclusion request: wireless-crda" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32580115:52
loolslangasek: wireless-crda was just added to Ubuntu a couple of days ago15:52
pittisaw it a couple of hours ago, will get to that asap15:52
rtgThe kernel won't install because wirel;ess-crda is a dependency15:52
loolMIR has been set in progress some hours ago15:52
loolBy Kees IIRC15:53
pittilool: but not approved,  right?15:53
pitti(yet)15:53
loolin progress is approved AFAIK; albeit I had some comments against it15:53
slangasektargeted to jaunty now15:53
lool       Status: New => In Progress15:53
slangasekrtg: er. why is it a depends instead of a recommends, which is what was suggested in the bug log?15:54
rtgbecause its a requirement for CRDA. why wouldn't it be a depends?15:54
slangasekdefinitely an alpha-5 issue if the kernel can't be installed, though ;)15:54
pittidepends sounds too strong, there are certainly pleny of systems without any wifi at all?15:54
cjwatsonwhen I was asked about this, I said Recomments15:54
cjwatsonRecommends15:55
cjwatsonfor pitti's reason15:55
loolYes, I wasn't personally sure whether this should be pulled by some higher level meta package or the kernel itself; I don't mind where but I want it to be optional in some use cases as well15:55
rtgI'll defer to you guys. I just think it really needs to be installed.15:55
pittirtg: recommends just means that people can uninstall it, it'd still be installed by default15:55
slangasekrtg: recommends -> installed by default, but users who don't have wifi can uninstall it for a slimmer system15:55
rtgwe have no kernels that do not also have wireless.15:55
loolThere was the question of upgrades; hopefully people don't turn off recommends15:55
slangaseklool: users who do that are shooting themselves in the foot generally15:56
rtgslangasek: CRDA is really small.15:56
cjwatsonI actually wondered why this isn't simply part of udev15:56
rtg'cause its not part of the udev upstream15:57
cjwatson"why this isn't simply part of udev upstream"15:57
slangasekright; anyway, Recommends vs. Depends doesn't need to be hashed out here and now15:57
rtgdisparate developers I guess15:57
cjwatsonmaybe that's something that needs to be talked about15:57
slangasekrtg: do you know if there's progress on bug #261318?15:58
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261318 in linux "Regression: new Toshiba Laptop Support (tlsup) driver breaks Toshiba hotkeys; input device does not support 'kbd' input handler" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26131815:58
slangasek... right, 'fix released', guess so15:58
slangasek(bah, developer race conditions)15:58
rtgI was looking at that. I thought we revereted to tochiba_acpi (which should fix the probnlem)15:58
rtgtoshiba_acpi, even15:59
slangaseksounds right15:59
slangasekthe last bug I had on the list is #8874616:00
slangasekIIRC I targeted this to jaunty because someone had already accepted a nomination for hardy16:00
rtgbug 8874616:00
slangasekbut I don't know that anyone is working on it currently?16:00
ubottuError: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746/+text)16:00
slangasek(or if it's even actionable, honestly)16:00
rtgoh, that one. there are 472 comments.16:01
slangasekyes16:01
rtgI've never been able to get a handle on it.16:01
slangasekwhat would help us get a handle on it?16:01
slangasekdo we need to get users to give us PCI IDs for their USB controllers, and get them to confirm that the devices work at USB2.0 speeds under !Linux?16:02
rtgdanged if I know. get a platform that exhibits the problem?16:02
rtglooks like upstream has declined the bug report as invlaid16:02
rtguh, nevermind. I misread that16:03
slangasekis there someone on the kernel team who could take care of distilling this bug?  or should we ask the QA team for help?16:04
rtglets put it this way, I have no plans to address this bug before release.16:04
slangasekwell, it's also been marked as an SRU candidate for hardy; so if we're not going to handle the bug we should follow through on documenting this in the bug state16:05
=== Nicke_ is now known as Nicke
rtgsure16:06
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to follow up on bug #8874616:06
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to follow up on bug #8874616:06
ubottuError: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746/+text)16:06
slangasekrtg: anything else we should discuss before moving on?16:07
ubottuError: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/88746/+text)16:07
rtgCRDA was the big item for me.16:07
slangasekok16:07
slangasek[TOPIC] Foundations team16:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations team16:07
slangasekcjwatson:16:07
slangasekrobbiew: you too, though I guess I saw cjwatson preparing the report :)16:07
robbiewI'll defer to cjwatson, as I would just be a "parrot" for cjwatson's report..16:08
cjwatsonhah16:08
cjwatsonok, bugs first16:09
cjwatson325690: (udev breaks cryptsetup initramfs hook) - fix committed16:09
cjwatson323602: (kernel upgrade fails when casper is installed(?)) - this is probably bug 292159, which I've discussed with Evan and we'll get fixed after FF16:09
ubottuLaunchpad bug 292159 in linux "MASTER update-initramfs is disabled since running on a live CD but it is running from a flash drive. " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29215916:09
cjwatson322482: (update-manager fails over remote GDM) - almost certainly not really an update-manager problem, as Steve points out, but it's true that there are lots of things that can go wrong in this scenario and a warning does seem called for; we'll get this fixed after FF, just need to figure out the best detection method16:09
cjwatson313218: (IPv6 causes slow Internet access) - still on my plate for as soon as I get feature work out of the way; there's been good progress upstream for at least a workaround16:09
cjwatson303515: (passwd gives wrong return code on failure) - this one's Steve's, likely to make progress upstream within the next few weeks16:09
cjwatson311228: (extra translations not installed for the default language) - fix committed16:09
cjwatson44194: (wpasupplicant interfaces don't start right with separate /usr partition) - I meant to discuss this at the sprint but didn't have time. One possible fix would be for all necessary binaries and libraries to be outside /usr, and to use somewhere like /var/run in case the root filesystem is not writable yet.16:09
cjwatson309215: (python-numpy vs. pygtk package split) - still an open question16:09
cjwatson325257: (migration-assistant incompatible with encrypted home directories) - per security team comments on lack of encrypted swap, we're going to have to disable encrypted home on the desktop CD, so this is moot for jaunty but we'll look at it anyway16:09
cjwatsonregarding feature freeze, major things yet to land are a couple more installer changes (including manual package selection for server installs and some more timezone map changes in ubiquity), python2.6, update-manager/computer-janitor merge, hwclock and console changes for boot performance16:10
slangasek(ack on 44194, that was my thought as well)16:10
cjwatsonI NEWed python2.6 source earlier and should be able to NEW the binaries before leaving for the day16:10
cjwatson(I'll be offline all weekend)16:11
cjwatsonrobbiew: any other relevant feature bits I'm missing?16:11
robbiewno...not that I'm aware of16:11
cjwatsonhmm, python2.6 failing on lpia not a good sign16:12
cjwatsonanyway, yeah - my general feeling from our last foundations meeting was that it's a bit of a sprint to the finish, but that most people are fairly well on track16:13
slangaseksounds good, thanks16:13
slangasek[TOPIC] Server team16:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Server team16:13
slangasekdendrobates: hi-yo16:13
dendrobatesslangasek: nothing big from us.16:14
slangasekdendrobates: I gave you two bugs in the agenda so you didn't feel left out :)  is jdstrand owning bug #305264?  we discussed at the sprint that the openldap behavior should be changed so it's consistent when built with gnutls vs. openssl16:15
ubottuLaunchpad bug 305264 in openldap "gnutls regression: failure in certificate chain validation" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30526416:15
ScottKI'll toss in that clamav 0.95 is expected in ~ 1 month another set of "let's break all the libclamav rdepends" changes.  They promise though that this is the one true last redesign.16:15
slangasekor if not jdstrand, is there someone else on your team who can drive it?  (mathiaz?)  I'm happy to make sure the Debian openldap packages follow suit, but I don't have time right now to figure out what needs patching16:16
robbiewdendrobates is on a call, so he may need to follow up via email16:16
slangasekScottK: heh16:16
slangasekrobbiew: ah, thanks16:16
slangasekScottK: and 0.95 is intended for jaunty?16:17
robbiewhas his head in the clouds ;)16:17
dendrobatesslangasek: mathiaz should handle anything ldap related.16:17
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to follow up with mathiaz on bug #30526416:17
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to follow up with mathiaz on bug #30526416:17
ubottuLaunchpad bug 305264 in openldap "gnutls regression: failure in certificate chain validation" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30526416:17
ScottKslangasek: I'd say so if we can unbreak the rdepends in a reasonable time.16:17
ScottKI've talked with Debian and upstream about a svn snapshot in experimental soonish so we can start working.16:17
slangasekok, great16:18
slangasekdendrobates: thanks16:18
slangasek[TOPIC] MOTU16:18
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU16:18
slangasekScottK: still you, then :)16:18
ScottKYeah.16:18
ScottKWe got a volunteer for our 5th person, so it seems we'll be fully manned.16:18
slangasekexcellent16:19
ScottKMy biggest concern right now is Lenny releasing 5 days before feature freeze, what will get uploaded and what that does to the sponsorhip quueu16:19
ScottKfor some better spelling of queue16:19
slangasekhmm16:19
cjwatsonyou can always say no to merges :)16:19
ScottKWe also have a charter we're working with other MOTUs to clarify what it is we are supposed to be doing.16:20
ScottKIt's sort of grown organically up to now.16:20
slangasekright; based on my experience with Debian post-release uploads, saying no might be a good idea anyway :)16:20
ScottKheh.16:20
james_wperhaps a mail to -motu@ would not go amiss?16:20
ScottKThat's it for MOTU I think.16:20
ScottKjames_w: For the post-release question?16:20
cjwatsonI think Mark Hymers' mail to d-d-a is apposite16:20
ScottKWe'll deal with it one way or another.16:21
cjwatson"We'll drop an email to d-d-a again once this happens and then go and hide somewhere while everyone uploads a new version of every package to sid simultaneously :-)"16:21
* slangasek grins16:21
james_wScottK: to explain that there will be an explosion of things in MoM, and we probably don't want them all16:21
ScottKAh.16:21
ScottKMakes sense.16:21
ScottKjames_w: I have to drop offline shortly after this meeting, would you draft something?16:22
* lool suggests we sponsor beer to Debian to make sure everybody is drunk for long after the release16:22
* ScottK suspects lool is wearing his Debian hat when he suggests that.16:22
james_wScottK: I'll draft it and let you take a look16:22
slangasek[ACTION] james_w to draft an email to -motu about handling of post-lenny-release MoM explosion16:22
MootBotACTION received:  james_w to draft an email to -motu about handling of post-lenny-release MoM explosion16:22
loolScottK: argh!16:22
ScottKThat's it for MOTU.16:22
slangaseklool: I'm not sure why you think that would reduce upload frequency, as opposed to upload quality ;)16:23
slangasekScottK: thanks :)16:23
loolhaha16:23
slangasek[TOPIC] General feature update16:23
MootBotNew Topic:  General feature update16:23
ScottKjames_w: You can mail me, as I'll be getting mail.16:23
slangasek(AKA: AOB?)16:23
pittithanks slangasek16:24
ScottKIt looks like we now have functional kernels/libdrm on all the ports archs.16:24
slangasekgoodgood16:24
slangasekI think all the other features I'm aware of being in the pipe have been covered, so...16:24
ScottKI've been working on getting the rebuild sequence right for KDE.16:25
ScottKOn hppa I will be blocked by Bug #31195216:25
ubottuError: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/311952/+text)16:25
ScottKI'd appreciate it if someone could talk to the LP people about that one.16:25
ScottK(since the bot isn't helping, it's a PAS problem that makes it so kdebidings gets skipped on hppa)16:26
slangasekah, hmm16:26
slangasekcjwatson: I think we also need to talk through management of P-a-s for Ubuntu now that Debian has moved to git16:26
slangasekpkern sent a mail to u-devel, I don't think there was any followup there16:27
ScottKFor intrepid, we have KDE 4.1.4 in -proposed and it is just lacking verificaton of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdeutils/+bug/31886616:27
ubottuUbuntu bug 318866 in kdeutils "printer-applet does not display when new printers get configured" [Undecided,Fix committed]16:27
ScottKUnfortunately haven't found someone with a USB printer to test it.16:27
ScottKI was wondering if sru-verification could take that one on so we can get the set pushed to -updates.16:27
cjwatsonslangasek: yes, we'll need to grab infinity for that16:28
cjwatsonslangasek: assuming that we can't just continue to pull it16:28
* ScottK sits down.16:28
slangaseksbeattie: can you help with that KDE SRU verification ScottK mentions above?16:29
sbeattieScottK|slangasek: yeah, I can take a poke at that one.16:29
slangasekthanks16:29
ScottKsbeattie: Thanks.16:29
ScottKpitti: Once that one is verified, I think we can push 4.1.4 (all package bugs tagged kde4.1.4.)16:30
pitti\o/16:30
slangasekand I'll summarily truncate "Hardware testing, ISO size" since I think everything's been said which needs to at this point16:30
jdstrandslangasek: IIRC we wanted to SRU the gnutls bug. I can take it16:31
jdstranddendrobates: ^16:31
slangasekso I think were done here - thanks, all16:31
slangasek#endmeeting16:31
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:31.16:31
pittithanks all16:31
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== smarter_ is now known as smarter
=== MikeB is now known as Technoviking

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