[00:12] who in gods name decides on ubuntu artwork... they should stop [00:13] default art is supposed to be widely acceptable, it never has been on ubuntu [00:14] <_MMA_> Please take your trolling elsewhere. [00:14] _MMA_: I'm just stating my opinion... thats not trolling [00:14] If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry [00:15] trolling... sheesh [00:15] <_MMA_> What reaction do you expect? New person in a channel that says that. Thin next time. [00:15] <_MMA_> *Think [00:16] uh what do you want me to say.., "I love ubuntu artwork" If I dont feel it!!??? [00:16] think next time, dont feel [00:16] pussy [00:16] fuck you [00:16] <_MMA_> hahaha. And I'm the puss. :P [00:37] :) [00:37] out of curiosity who actually decides? [00:38] <_MMA_> Canonical === islington is now known as SealV [02:10] http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1235095736.png [02:11] <_MMA_> SealV: Not bad. :) [02:14] thanks [02:34] Anyone awake still? [02:34] yes [02:35] I jumped onto the wiki and took a look at the artwork section [02:35] interesting points of view [02:36] Since I am new to this channel, any themers on board? [02:37] I believe Cimi is developing the murrine engine... [02:37] murrine engine... I saw some artwork based on that during my wiki hunt [02:38] IS there more info on the engine? [02:39] http://www.cimitan.com/murrine/project/murrine [02:39] * MRIguy looking [02:39] <_MMA_> MRIguy: Also join the mailing list to get up to speed on the active projects. [02:43] SealV: clearlooks too [02:43] :o [02:43] i'm the maintainer of gtk-engines and gnome-themes-extrrsa [02:43] for gnome [02:43] <_MMA_> Cimi: You want another gold star? :P [02:43] lol [02:44] <_MMA_> hehehe [02:44] Cimi: a good tutorial/guide for pizbuf/pixmap engine? [02:44] *pixbuf [02:45] _MMA_: yeah [02:45] _MMA_: if you have some idea... [02:45] sq [02:46] SealV: no, you should not use the pixbuf engine [02:46] <_MMA_> Cimi: Because...? [02:46] no other way, I want to try to make a better 'wood ' theme [02:47] _MMA_: a lot of minor reasons [02:47] <_MMA_> Cimi: Please don't say speed. [02:47] _MMA_: you already said :) [02:47] regardless, can any other engine handle textures? [02:48] SealV: experience and css [02:48] and out of those which do you recommend [02:48] pixbuf [02:48] or experience [02:49] maybe pixbuf [02:49] =__= [02:49] <_MMA_> Cimi: The speed issue is a myth perpetrated by nerds arguing over nanoseconds *years* ago. Any speed arguments are completely useless on modern HW. [02:49] <_MMA_> So any issues /other/ than speed I'd like to hear about. [02:50] how about 0 useful documentation [02:50] <_MMA_> +1 there. [02:50] <_MMA_> Cimi has been a perfect example of great documentation. ;) [02:51] _MMA_: I'm currently on a business trip in New York area. I'll look into the mailing list when I get back next week. [02:51] pixmap? [02:51] pixbuf? [02:51] <_MMA_> MRIguy: That would be great. Are you an artist of any sort? Portfolio? [02:51] Hang on: Some URLs [02:52] <_MMA_> MRIguy: They are the engines behind themes you see on GNOME. [02:53] <_MMA_> MRIguy: So you install a "engine" on your Linux box and code for that particular one. There are only a couple major ones. [02:55] One of my more recent themes - [02:55] http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/darkside/ [02:57] http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/explorergtk/ [02:57] I rendered the background pics for both themes [02:57] <_MMA_> MRIguy: Huh? Wait. You have made GNOME themes but don't know what pixmap is? [02:58] Pixmap is the common denominator in Linux distros [02:58] I know what a engine is.. I was just pulling your leg. [02:59] Distros which use Gnome [02:59] <_MMA_> MRIguy: You have no clue the folks we get in here. SO for someone new to come in and ask is not uncommon. [02:59] I understand. [03:00] I have themes for KDE and Window Maker as well [03:00] Been doing themes since KDE 2.0 [03:01] I recently branched into Metacity/GTK [03:01] :( I had to google cimi's site ya know...anyways..welcome [03:01] I post my works on freshmeat.net [03:02] Want some background which I did? [03:02] <_MMA_> Well I gotta run. MRIguy: See ya on the mailing list. [03:02] background images, that is [03:02] _MMA_ : Good luck [03:05] Is murrine going to make it into the Gnome world? What I mean is : will we see it distributed along side pixmap and clearlook? [03:07] Everyone have a nice evening. Bye Bye. [03:13] _MMA_: speed is an issue like others (expecially on the new netbooks or mobile devices) but it's not the main one. with those engine you lose a lot of configurability, inheritance between widgets, color adjustment and whatever makes your theme consisent. with a pixmap theme you'll never reach a theme perfect overll, those themes are good for simple alternatives, but are not suitable for a default [03:15] anyway I'm tired, going to bed [03:15] night SealV [03:18] night cimi === tretle_ is now known as tretle [08:57] * tretle thinks that the ubuntu icon theme should be replaced with a mofified version of gnome-colors [08:57] the human variant that is [08:59] tretle: have you seen breathe, its very nice. [08:59] don't personally like it [09:00] think the icons need to be brighter [09:01] Quite like the mango icon theme though, which is of similar spec to breath and oxegen except nice and bright [09:01] Hate the current icon theme [09:01] yet nothing seems to change release to release [09:04] tretle: can't seem to find the mango icon theme, link? [09:05] http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=Tango-NG [09:05] tretle: thanks [09:05] np [09:06] tretle: ah I've seen those before, but they're not in the PD [09:07] pd? [12:09] cool notifications!! http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1909/mootu0.png [12:12] savvas: mine aren't starting :( [12:13] <_MMA_> savvas: Depends on what "cool" refers to for me. /Looks/ sure. As far as a consistent and bug-free replacement for what's there, no. [12:13] ziroday: right click on rhythmbox, check "show notifications" and switch your song [12:13] ziroday: it's for jaunty by the way :) [12:14] savvas: yep, got it now :) [12:16] _MMA_: so far I've noticed it on rhythmbox and apport, but.. have you seen any bugs? [12:17] volume doesn't work [12:17] <_MMA_> ziroday: Switch to the Human theme. [12:18] <_MMA_> ziroday: But that should be fixed soon. [12:18] _MMA_: there is no high color fallback? [12:18] <_MMA_> No [12:18] wha..? [12:18] wouldn't that be sensible [12:18] <_MMA_> The icons were mistakenly put in the Human theme. [12:19] hmph [12:19] <_MMA_> Filed a bug. Already fixed. Just wait for the update. [12:19] _MMA_: ah great :) [12:19] * ziroday sends a sixpack to _MMA_ [12:20] <_MMA_> I think it should get moved to hicolor but it's getting moved to gnome. [12:20] as long as their is a fall back [12:21] hmm it doesn't play nice with banshee either [12:22] <_MMA_> savvas: I get oddness with mail-notification for one. Where in addition to the pop-up I get a metacity framed window. There's still work to be done for Jaunty on it I'm told. I still might remove it from Studio as it's just bling and I think I wanna give it a cycle to mature. [12:23] _MMA_: and it is broken without compiz [12:23] <_MMA_> +1 [12:24] then whats the fallback if compiz isn't running? [12:24] yeah [12:24] but it is absolutely UGLY [12:24] right [12:24] try to hover it [12:24] you'll have strange effects [12:25] notifications looks better with the old notification-daemon [12:25] when no compiz is running [12:25] at least its easy to remove [12:25] <_MMA_> For me, when I hover it disappears except for a outline of the dialog. [12:25] yeah [12:25] _MMA_: this is not so bling [12:25] but there's no solution [12:26] without compiz you don't have the alpha channel and you must do totally black or totally transparent [12:26] <_MMA_> Cimi: Like I said, there's still ongoing work. This just hit so judge it harshly when they actually release Jaunty. ;) [12:27] _MMA_: the thing could improve for compiz/metacity with composite [12:27] but will never be fixed for non-composited screens [12:27] because there's no solution [12:27] so, it will be broken or ugly or whateve you call it [12:28] Cimi: but nearly all the new cards nowadays support compositing [12:29] all [12:29] metacity compositing doesn't require a video card [12:29] it works with the CPU if the card doesn't support it [12:29] Cimi: but isn't that seriously slow? [12:29] but personally I don't like to enable those transparencies [12:29] ziroday: depends on the cpu [12:30] anyway [12:30] Cimi: right [12:30] I'm not using it on the netbook [12:30] compiz drains my battery [12:30] <_MMA_> ziroday: Yes. This is what I talk about often. On alot of levels we can't continue to think about the lowest common denominator. [12:31] _MMA_: definitely, in a lot of ways its better to look into the future then stay in the past :). If that past gets a slightlier buggier version then salavi. They can easily remove the new notifications if they want [12:32] <_MMA_> Agreed. [12:33] compiz is full of issues [12:33] should not be used imho [12:33] _MMA_: also great work on breathe, absolutely love it [12:33] <_MMA_> Actually, I think it would be best to have a switch somewhere to turn 'em off. [12:33] try to open gimp [12:33] or totem [12:33] or firefox at fullscreen [12:33] <_MMA_> ziroday: Thanx. It's coming along. [12:33] it's full of issues [12:33] I really hope in mutter [12:34] _MMA_: I was under the impression that the Pop-up Notifications settings in Admin > Preferences was meant to have that [12:34] <_MMA_> ziroday: I just lost that dialog so I assumed it was for the old system. I'll look again. [12:35] _MMA_: open powertop and see how compiz drains your battery [12:35] _MMA_: well that would be the intelligent place to put it from my point of view [12:35] <_MMA_> Cimi: Nothing that make apps unusable though. Just annoying. I am very happy to see that they are finally pulling things together and getting all these forks stopped. [12:36] _MMA_: compiz is dead [12:36] <_MMA_> Cimi: Though an obvious major use-case, I don't use laptops that aren't plugged in. [12:36] Cimi: I think the new compiz++ efforts as well as hard coding some options and eventually phasing out ccsm is a great leap forwards [12:36] err take an s of forwards [12:36] ziroday: words words words [12:36] Cimi: but those goals are reachable, easily reachable in fact. [12:36] I would be excited to see that compiz will not dead [12:37] <_MMA_> Cimi: You make alot of blanket statements like that without qualifying them. [12:37] but at the moment compiz is a dead project [12:37] _MMA_: when davidr started workin on the other project [12:37] Cimi: plus compiz++ development has already started, around 40% of the core has been re-written [12:37] compiz development was confusing [12:37] <_MMA_> Cimi: Lets go into #compiz and watch you defend that statement. [12:38] Cimi: and compiz++ will mean all the plugins have to be ported, alot of the dodgier ones will be dropped [12:38] it's like going in #ubuntu-artwork saying orange/brown it's a bad colorscheme [12:38] <_MMA_> Like I said, they are pulling the forks in under Compiz. The project is far feom dead. [12:38] <_MMA_> *from [12:38] I'm not blaming the colorscheme here [12:38] Cimi: as well as an awful lot of settings hardcoded, eventually ccsm will die [12:38] wait for mutter [12:39] people will use mutter not compiz [12:39] compiz is about to dead in my opinion [12:39] <_MMA_> We'll see. :) [12:39] yeha it's only a feeling [12:39] and quinn said she might come back to kick it back alive again [12:39] rewriting in c++ is not a solution [12:40] I really hope not [12:40] beryl was a chaotic window manager [12:40] full of dirty effects [12:41] <_MMA_> IMO, the solution needs to come from GNOME or get pulled into GNOME. That would kill anything else. Like KDE did. [12:41] _MMA_: there's mutter [12:41] compiz is about to die [12:41] kwin works better [12:42] and mutter, even slower and without the amount of effects that compiz has [12:42] will be my choice for usability and stability [12:42] I'm tired of gimp issues, kde applications (they all start without window borders!!!) and similar problems [12:43] compiz doesn't remember the position of the windows (nautilus) [12:43] <_MMA_> Never seen that. Honestly. [12:43] I don't want the flames when I close the window with all those issues [12:43] <_MMA_> That isn't on by default come on. But it's fun to have. [12:43] first fix the issue and make it stable as metacity, with the freedesktop compliance [12:44] and THEN it will be a good choice [12:44] _MMA_: yeah it could be fun, but before the fun comes the compatibility [12:44] and compiz is full of issues [12:45] because the developers are more interested in effects than in fixing bugs [12:45] at least that's what we said [12:45] a fork [12:45] why the hell we should rewrite an entire project in c++?? [12:45] <_MMA_> Cimi: I'm sorry man but atm you sound like the minority. If *everyone* or even the majority of people had these issues all the major distros would not be shipping Compiz. [12:46] distro ship compiz because the newbies need for the "wow" aero-like impression [12:47] compiz moved a lot of windows users to linux/ubuntu [12:47] <_MMA_> Cimi: And ranting here, isn't gonna fix it. Man. I know Italians are "passionate" but there's way more important stuff to get worked up about. :P [12:47] yeah, like fixing compiz issues [12:47] and freedesktop compliancy [12:47] <_MMA_> hahahha [12:48] <_MMA_> No. [12:48] <_MMA_> Like *real life* issues. ;) [12:48] don't composited metacity pretty much do the same as compiz by default on ubuntu? [12:48] <_MMA_> Compiz being FreeDesktop compliant won't find me a job. [12:49] _MMA_: ubuntu won't find you a job [12:49] or a woman [12:49] <_MMA_> Cimi: Exactly. So why get worked up about it like you are? :) [12:49] andreasn: pretty much the same [12:50] _MMA_: cause I'm seeing my girlfriend in two hours [12:50] now I don't have too much to do :) [12:50] and I've already seen the simpsons episode on the tv [12:50] <_MMA_> Cimi: Still, not worth it. ;) [12:50] andreasn: hey, I was looking for you yesterday :) [12:51] andreasn: I guess you saw the notification stuff? [12:51] <_MMA_> Cimi: At least you don't use lots of punctuation!!!!????? [12:51] kwwii: please pull the notify-osd icons inside hicolor [12:51] <_MMA_> Cimi: Or maybe you save that for other channels. :P [12:52] kwwii, yes, I read through the document briefly, but I haven't tried it out [12:52] andreasn: well, as far as the icons go it is basically like this: [12:52] we have the ubuntu icons in the human theme [12:52] and I picked a bunch of gnome icons and put them directly in the pacakge [12:53] that is not the long term solution, naturally [12:53] but it does allow for people to choose another theme and still have icons [12:53] kwwii: hicolor [12:53] put them inside hicolor [12:53] <_MMA_> kwwii: But as everything falls back to hicolor that would be best. It's why I mentioned it in the bug report. [12:55] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/331849 [12:55] ? [12:55] Ubuntu bug 331849 in notify-osd "Notify-osd icons should be installed for hicolor" [Undecided,New] [12:56] <_MMA_> Cimi: No. I had one also. [12:56] Cimi: it also works fine the way we are oding it now [12:56] doing [12:56] we very well might change things [12:56] but for now it works ok [12:57] kwwii, in the earliest mockups it looked like the icons would be monochrome, any specific reason you didn't en up doing that? [12:57] kwwii: it doesn't work on my desktop because I'm not using ubuntu artworks [12:59] kwwii, because the background of the notification will always be black, right? [12:59] <_MMA_> Cimi: If you're using Ubuntu, but not the Human theme, it will be fixed soom because the images are being moved to the GNOME set. [12:59] andreasn: right [12:59] <_MMA_> But I agree hicolor is a better place. [12:59] _MMA_: but *why* the gnome set and not hicolor? [12:59] _MMA_: they are not being moved to the gnome set [12:59] they are part of the package now [12:59] I'm not using gnome too :-) [13:00] kwwii: it is odd [13:00] hicolor is the right place [13:00] andreasn: what do you think? [13:00] you're our icon guru [13:01] <_MMA_> kwwii: SO they will now be hard-coded and unthemeable? [13:01] yes, hicolor sounds like the correct place, because then everyone would see them and we can override it in HighContrast for example [13:02] I guess the icons are pretty monocrome + some gradient thing [13:02] I like them [13:03] is the plan to push the notifications upstream soon? [13:03] I'll look into this closer and see what I can do [13:03] andreasn: yes [13:03] <_MMA_> kwwii: If so, that's a big FAIL IMO. If nothing other than andreasn's example. [13:03] <_MMA_> Hell. What do I care. I'm pulling it from Studio anyway. :P [13:04] some people will probably kick and scream, but I think they are cool :) [13:04] I think the idea is pretty cool, people should give it time to mature [13:05] _MMA_, well, they are pretty monocrome already and possible to see with bad eyesight [13:05] <_MMA_> andreasn: Cool yes, but not having the ability to consistently theme them is fail IMO. [13:05] <_MMA_> andreasn: I'll have a blind friend look over them. [13:06] is his regular theme HighContrast? if so, forward my apologies that we suck in that department :( [13:06] <_MMA_> kwwii: Do you know if they (the notifications) work with the current assistive tech? [13:06] time for lunch, later! [13:06] _MMA_: no idea [13:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: I guess you're really not the best guy to bug about it. I'll just look into it and file lots of bugs. [13:10] <_MMA_> ;) [13:14] :) [16:40] hmm. a bzr commit during an ongoing push shouldn't be a problem, or? [16:41] <_MMA_> I wouldn't risk it. [16:41] <_MMA_> thorwil: You working in 2 terminals in the same branch? [16:42] _MMA_: no. not yet :) [16:43] <_MMA_> thorwil: Well I think you would be fine on separate branches. But if trying to commit to a branch you are pushing just sounds like trouble. [16:44] kwwii: i recently noticed that the LP terms state that a branch _has_ to contain at least some source code. that means i'm currently breaking the rules. could you do a little lobbying, make the ones responsible think of artwork needs? [16:45] _MMA_: i will practice patience, then [16:47] thorwil: wow, that sounds funky [16:47] thorwil: I would create a bug about that [16:48] <_MMA_> thorwil: So wait, you're saying that a team *needs* code in a branch? [16:48] interesting idea. didn't think that could be the target of a report [16:51] _MMA_: it's likely not the intention, but have a look at https://help.launchpad.net/Legal/ProjectLicensing [16:51] "To use Launchpad free of charge, a software project must meet these conditions." [16:51] "It must include source code. " ... [16:52] well, i have a bash script included to turn PNGs into JPGs and thumbnails ^^ [16:53] <_MMA_> Ok. To me, it relates to a project, not teams. But the language could be changed a bit. [16:53] <_MMA_> thorwil: The script is the code in that case. [16:53] <_MMA_> *source code [16:54] all my other branches include SVGs, though calling those source code ... [16:54] <_MMA_> It is. [16:55] <_MMA_> Art is always a odd thing. There's no way to know if a renders PNG came from a SVG so there it just comes down to license. [16:56] <_MMA_> *rendered [16:56] kwwii: where/how to file against LP? [16:57] <_MMA_> "Launchpad itself" [16:59] <_MMA_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+filebug [16:59] <_MMA_> thorwil: But I really don't think it's worth it. Maybe just have a chat on #launchpad. [17:00] _MMA_: thanks. did you reach that by simply entering launchpad as project? [17:00] <_MMA_> Well if you search "launchpad" in Launchpad one of the results will be: "Launchpad itself". [17:06] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/332160 [17:07] Ubuntu bug 332160 in launchpad "Legal/ProjectLicensing is problematic for artwork" [Undecided,New] [17:17] Karmic Koala :) [17:17] next ubuntu codename [17:20] and i thought you were joking :) [17:27] :P [17:38] Karmic koala? *sigh* Mark really loves difficult animals..and complex concepts... [17:46] * _MMA_ updates Breathe's packaging files. jaunty->karmic [17:47] on the plus side, there is no way to not make a koala cute.. [17:48] <_MMA_> hehe [17:49] <_MMA_> Though, from what I've heard, Intrepid is the last we will see of officially used (shipped as default) mascot wallpapers. [17:53] thanks the benevolent dictators [17:53] so the focus will be on the descriptor? [17:58] <_MMA_> SealV: I think it's a safe bet from here on out it will be some generic abstract sorta thing like past releases. [18:30] Brown has served us well but [18:30] the Koala is considering other options. [18:31] oh my SealV is getting a bit exicited [18:32] <_MMA_> SealV: Don't get too excited. Just remember we are powerless over default. ;) [18:33] I know but I would love to see where they will be taking this.didn't a team just form at cononical? [18:34] <_MMA_> Yep [21:32] _MMA_: You shouldn't have to remove notify-osd. You can install gnome-stracciatella-session for an upstream session. [21:32] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Jaunty/StracciatellaSession [21:32] Haven't tried it yet. I think there were some dependency issues. [21:34] <_MMA_> Hmm... [21:34] <_MMA_> Lemmie look into that. [21:34] I just copied the icons from Human into Breathe and they seem to be working. [21:34] Battery, sound, display, no wifi [21:35] <_MMA_> dashua: Well you should wait. There's gonna be a Ubuntu update. [21:35] Also the issue with compiz needs a window match. [21:35] !(title=notify-osd) [21:35] Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [21:35] Needs to be added to open, close, and fading windows [21:36] Think there is a patch coming, but it's easy to add manually. [21:36] _MMA_: Yeah, I saw the bug report. Cool [21:36] <_MMA_> Hmm... Ok. I gotta weigh what to use for Studio. [21:36] It's still rather buggy, but looks great IMHO [21:37] Stacking is quite nice [21:38] <_MMA_> Wel wait. This gnome-stracciatella-session creates a new x-session option. [21:38] <_MMA_> Like after you install XFCE or KDE on Ubuntu? [21:38] The Karmic Koala will have a new look away from brown. [21:38] Will the complaints finally cease? =/ [21:39] Not sure. I think there were some python issues with it. [21:39] Ken Vandine was talking about the other day. [21:39] it* [21:40] <_MMA_> Ill talk to him. I know him personally. [21:40] It wasn't pulling in some dependencies, but may be fixed by now. [21:40] Yeah, he's an awesome guy. [21:40] I used Foresight for a bit. [21:40] <_MMA_> I just hope he finds a Job. :( [21:40] He did. [21:40] He works for Canonical. [21:41] Desktop Engineer [21:41] http://blogs.gnome.org/kenvandine/ [21:42] Another asset to the team. [21:42] <_MMA_> WTF!!!??? [21:42] Yeah [21:42] I thought the same thing. [21:42] Ubuntu just got a whole lot better. [21:43] what happened? why is mma confused? [21:47] bbl [22:10] yeah, we just hired him [22:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: I just gave him a earful. :P [22:29] kwwii: Is the wifi notification working for you or has that not been enabled yet? [22:29] I see there are some icons there. [23:11] dashua: not sure what you mean [23:11] but I am guessing that network manager has not been patched yet [23:36] Yeah, that's it. The other icons look nice. :)