[00:46] <jjesse> !kde version
[00:46] <jjesse> what is the version of kde in jaunty
[00:47]  * jjesse can never remember how to work ubuntu
[00:50] <vorian> ScottK: libdb4.5 is history
[00:52] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: 4.2.0
[00:52] <jjesse> thanks JontheEchidna
[01:23] <a|wen> hmm, damn icon cache ... ScottK: seems moving the icons in kile didn't work as it should; after a restart the icons inside kile is gone, any idea why it doesn't work having them inside the kile dir?
[01:58] <ghostcube> Tm_T, i testet the loader for et on severs now all working fine :)
[02:00] <ScottK> a|wen: No.  The iconcache stuff routinely confuses me.
[02:03] <a|wen> ScottK: okay; fact is it doesn't work... do you have an example of a package with local icons that works, just so i can check that the placement is the same (= not packaging issue)
[02:03] <ScottK> quassel works.
[02:04] <a|wen> okay, i'll take a look at that one
[02:19] <a|wen> ScottK: think i've got it; building right now... any reliable way to clear the icon cache except a restart?
[02:22] <ScottK> Dunno.
[02:30] <a|wen> okay; i'll just do a restart after installing the new package
[02:40] <ScottK> Anyone else run into this gem http://kitterman.com/kubuntu/ctrl-f.png
[02:42] <seele> lol
[02:42] <JontheEchidna> yes, actually
[02:42] <JontheEchidna> I reassigned it to crtl + shift +f as a workaround :/
[02:43] <a|wen> ScottK: jup, happens sometimes; then goes away and comes back later
[02:43] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: What did you reassign away?
[02:45] <JontheEchidna> The thing is I couldn't find anything else that used crtl + f
[02:48] <seele> if anyone happens on (or knows how to get) a really useless error message, send me a screenshot
[02:48] <ScottK> OK.  I'll file a bug.
[02:48] <seele> i need a bad error message for a lecture for tomorrow's class
[02:48]  * seele can't remember the one she regularly gets that includes an error code
[02:48] <seele> and no hints on how to fix it
[02:49] <seele> or-- even a good one i suppose
[02:49] <seele> but i think people learn best from looking at mistakes, not best practices
[03:00] <JontheEchidna> oh
[03:00] <JontheEchidna> seele: kmail is good at that
[03:01] <seele> JontheEchidna: yes, but forcing it to throw an error message when i need one is much harder than you think :)
[03:01] <JontheEchidna> nah, just give it the wrong password for you smtp server
[03:01] <JontheEchidna> I can get a screenie in a minute or two
[03:01] <seele> oh that would be helpful :)
[03:02] <seele> HAH.. this one is good
[03:02] <seele> http://silverlight.net/blogs/jesseliberty/WindowsLiveWriter/DownloadErrorCode4001_FC31/BugErrorCode_thumb.jpg
[03:02] <seele> completely useless. perfect
[03:03] <JontheEchidna> http://imagebin.ca/view/5JHm4HRr.html
[03:04] <JontheEchidna> All I did was give the wrong password
[03:04] <JontheEchidna> = huge wall of text
[03:04] <seele> wow that is ugly
[03:07] <ScottK> A lot of that is driven by SMTP RFCs.
[03:07] <JontheEchidna> kwallet's good too, it doesn't even tell you that you got the password wrong. It says that it returned an error code of -9
[03:09] <seele> oooh, that's the one i always get
[03:45] <shtylman> so what would be the best way to help out now? .. obviously its the bug fix period..where does one start?
[03:47] <ScottK> shtylman: Right now getting bugs in KDE packages upstream where they can hopefully get fixed in KDE 4.2.2 before our release is probably the most important.
[03:48] <shtylman> so do I go and try to fix bugs in kde? and then send the patches upstream?
[03:48] <shtylman> and do I pull kde svn and fix the reported bugs in that?
[03:49] <shtylman> or work from a different version?
[03:49] <ScottK> The main thing is to make sure that any upstream bugs we have in LP are reported to bugs.kde.org so they can have them to fix.
[03:49] <shtylman> I want to help out with the process, but it seems unclear where to start, ya know? I can jump right in, but don't want to duplicate work and such
[03:50] <ScottK> JontheEchidna has been doing most of that, so he would know better where we are.
[03:50] <shtylman> I see, so would I ask the kde devel people which bugs to fix? which source base would I work from?
[03:51] <ScottK> If you want to work on fixing, stuff, one good place to look is http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/ and look for KDE packages there aren't aren't building properly.
[03:53] <shtylman> ooo, interesting... do I pull the sources using apt-get source for the packages that don't build and try to see why?
[03:54] <nhandler> scottK: Could you look at LP Bug #333673? It is a small merge (look at the Ubuntu->Ubuntu debdiff) that allows us to get the fix for an RC bug in Debian that affects ubuntu
[03:59] <ScottK> shtylman: Yes.  You can pull the build failure logs of LP too.  Here's one I know needs doing https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/konq-plugins/4:4.2.0a-0ubuntu1/+build/869844/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-i386.konq-plugins_4:4.2.0a-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[04:01] <shtylman> apparently only happens on i386...
[04:01] <shtylman> interesting
[04:01] <ScottK> nhandler: What did you want me to look at it for.
[04:01] <nhandler> scottk: Just to give it an ACK for a FFe
[04:01] <ScottK> shtylman: Because it happens in the doc package generation and that's arch all and only built on i386.
[04:02] <ScottK> nhandler: It's a bugfix.  It doesn't need an FFe.
[04:02] <shtylman> i see
[04:02] <shtylman> ok...I will take a look
[04:02] <nhandler> scott: Even with the other minor changes it introduces? I thought we had to isolate the bug fix patch in order for it to not need a FFe
[08:14] <jussi01> hrm...
[08:16] <jussi01> does anyone know how to get kmail system tray icon to only display new messages in the inox? (I move unread ones to trash an it shows them... very annoying)
[09:08] <Riddell> morning
[09:29] <Tonio_> kuaera: sorry for yesterday, I had a connection problem at home...
[09:29] <Tonio_> is revu down ?
[09:32] <davmor2> Riddell: Morning
[09:37] <Tonio_> k3b on my ppa for testers....
[09:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: I polished the packaging so that libk3b4 deps are main only, the other ones are now in an -extracodecs package
[09:37] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: heeeey :)
[09:38] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I can test k3b on amd64 if you like
[09:38] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: sure :)
[09:52] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: Looks good, want me to burn a cd to test it?
[09:53] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: that would be nice
[09:53] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: also ripping an audio cd would be super :)
[09:53] <_StefanS_> just a sec
[09:53] <_StefanS_> is k3b-mp3 available too ?
[09:53] <_StefanS_> I guess we can ignore that for now
[09:55] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I'm downloading an iso to test now..
[09:55] <Tonio_> super :)
[09:55] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: just install the libk3b4-extracodecs to rip a cd
[09:55] <Tonio_> that should work
[10:07] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: ok i will try that. Its burning now btw.~700mb iso.
[10:08] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: over usb2
[10:08] <Tonio_> nice !
[10:17] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: successfully completed, avg. 2.273 KB/s (13x) .. its a 24x burner
[10:17] <_StefanS_> I'm ripping an audio cd in a moment
[10:19] <_StefanS_> uhm.. crashed upon clicking "Start ripping"
[10:20] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I will collect stuff for you
[10:20] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: hum..... well it doesn't work with the kde3 version too :)
[10:20] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: as long as it burns, I'm happy with it :)
[10:21] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: same here.. I rarely use that feature anyways.. as long as it burns cd's. What about creating a custom data cd ? should I try that ?
[10:21] <Tonio_> create data cd and eventually burn a dvd iso....
[10:21] <Tonio_> that's a pain to download, but useless
[10:21] <_StefanS_> will do.
[10:22] <Tonio_> I have not any cd to perform tests myself.... sorry for that
[10:22] <_StefanS_> no problems, I will test it.
[10:22] <_StefanS_> is it just me or is jaunty/kde4 just alot faster than intrepid ?
[10:23] <_StefanS_> seems like alot of waits have been eliminated
[10:27] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I'm starting to burn a 3.4gb dvd iso in a moment
[10:28] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: you rock ! many thanks for this
[11:13] <Tonio_> https://edge.launchpad.net/~packagekit/+archive/ppa
[11:14] <Tonio_> testers needed for latest kpackagekit please
[11:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: :)
[11:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: k3b available for revu too
[11:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: and seems to work at least as well as the current version (which is half broken due to lack of ioslaves support...)
[11:17] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I have some issues with burning dvd's, but I'm trying to reboot whether to see if the libk3b4 messed things up
[11:18] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: I've already been reported dvd issues....
[11:20] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: seems like md5 sum doesnt really work for iso9660 dvd's
[11:20] <Tonio_> interesting...
[11:20] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: Its starting to burn now (I hope)
[11:20] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: also, the point is revuing the packaging for me, since the svn receives somehting like 50 commits a day right now
[11:20] <_StefanS_> yep
[11:23] <ScottK> Tonio_: ubuntuwire.com expired and is being renewed.  You can use revu.ubuntuwire.org in the meantime.
[11:24] <Tonio_> ScottK: yeah, I already asked
[11:24] <Tonio_> ScottK: I just uploaded k3b there
[11:24] <ScottK> Oh, OK.
[11:24] <Tonio_> ScottK: If you have 5 minutes to give a look, that would be nice :)
[11:25] <ScottK> It's very early here.  Perhaps when I'm more awake.
[11:33] <a|wen> ScottK: can't get the kile icons to show up if they are placed under /usr/share/kde4/apps/kile/icons/hicolor/ ... i've looked at quassel, can't find any differences in packaging; so seems to be due to the way icons are imported in kile (/me needs an icon expert in this matter)
[11:35] <Sput> a|wen: cleaned the kde icon cache?
[11:35] <Sput> that beast causes weird issues with newly installed apps
[11:35]  * Sput would be surprised if kile used anything other than KIconLoader, so does Quassel
[11:36] <a|wen> Sput: i've done a restart after installing it ... is there other ways of cleaning it
[11:36] <Sput> removing it helps :)
[11:36] <Sput> it's somewhere in $KDEHOME/kde-cache/kpc
[11:36] <Sput> or somesuch
[11:36] <Sput> I have no idea if there is any sane way to just force a refresh, but then again, just rming didn't hurt
[11:36] <jgoss> hi everyone, i recentally installed ubuntu jaunty and just installed konqueror. konqueror segfaulted when trying to startup. with some trial and error, i realized that if i installed kubuntu-default-settings it worked. this might be related to bug #333411.
[11:37] <a|wen> Sput: you are the man ... cleaned the wrong cache last time i tried :)
[11:38] <Sput> a|wen: did it help?
[11:38] <a|wen> Sput: jup :)
[11:38] <jgoss> is this bug already known or is reproducible by anyone else? thanks for your time.
[11:54] <a|wen> ScottK: the last package blocking arts-removal is gone now; time to go ahead?
[12:04] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: dvd burning is a no-go.. it stops at growisofs "Executing builtin_dd if=..... "
[12:05] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: I'd be interested in knowing if that's a growisofs issue or a k3b one...
[12:05] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: anyway, thanks a lot for testing...
[12:05] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: let me post it to pastebin
[12:06] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: oki ;)
[12:06]  * _StefanS_ is trying the new pastebin widget :D
[12:07] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: http://pastebin.ca/1345766
[12:07] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: k3b can be canceled, quitted and all that. So it does not seem to be k3b directly
[12:08] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: yep....
[12:08] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: line 23 is where i sent a ctrl+c
[12:10] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: I'd say it's a k3b issue, but that needs to be confirmed...
[12:10] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: anyway, I have no doubt it'll e upstream fixed soon
[12:10] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: now the packaging needs to be reviewed so that I can upload regular nightly builds of it and get it tested...
[12:11] <Tonio_> ell
[12:11] <Tonio_> hum sorry for that :)
[12:17] <Riddell> Tonio_: I don't see k3b on revu
[12:17] <Tonio_> Riddell: on my ppa for that one :)
[12:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: or I can upload on revu if you prefer...
[12:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: uploading right now
[12:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: one little question.... what about apps that where demoted and that are now ported to kde4 (like knemo...) should they go threw revu once again ?
[12:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: they only need to go through revu if the packaging changes significantly
[12:41] <Riddell> Tonio_: but we're past feature freeze now so they need approval from someone
[12:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: oki
[12:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll upload knemo since that one was pretty popular for kde3
[12:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you simply approve on revu or do I need to write a FFE bug ?
[12:48] <Riddell> Tonio_: put it on revu I can look and approve
[12:50] <_StefanS_> gotta run
[12:50] <_StefanS_> see you all
[13:08] <ScottK> a|wen: If all the rdepends are gone then absolutely.
[13:09] <a|wen> we had one package left on sparc only, and it is gone from the NBS list now
[13:10] <ScottK> Excellent.
[13:12] <JontheEchidna> ~order cookies a|wen
[13:12]  * kubotu slides cookies a|wen down the bar to JontheEchidna
[13:12] <JontheEchidna> ~order cookies for a|wen
[13:12]  * kubotu slides a whole bunch of world's finest cookies down the bar to a|wen.
[13:13] <a|wen> thx JontheEchidna :)
[13:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://revu.ubuntuwire.org/p/k3b and also http://revu.ubuntuwire.org/p/knemo
[13:14] <a|wen> ScottK: how does the request for removal part work? ... should we add something special to the end of the bug?
[13:15] <ScottK> Generally you make a bug that asks for removal of source and binaries (list them).  For this one, then I'd say add a comment to that effect to the end of the bug.
[13:16] <jussi01> Riddell: Stickers :D thanks a million :)
[13:16] <ScottK> The give me a link to the bug and I'll subscribe the archive.
[13:18] <a|wen> ScottK: i'll do that after dinner; just giving all the binaries a second rdepends check after everything should be gone
[13:18]  * ScottK nods
[13:18] <Riddell> Tonio_: comments http://revu.ubuntuwire.org/p/k3b
[13:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: looking
[13:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: about libmp3lame-dev, the binary content is being moved to the -extragear package
[13:20] <a|wen> ScottK: finally found out what was wrong with the icons, after learning how to clear my icon cache ... http://awen.dk/packages/kile/kile_2.1~svn20090217-0ubuntu4.debdiff
[13:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: libk3b4 only has main deps, so what is the problem ?
[13:22] <Tonio_> Riddell: also, about the version, it's already been changed from 1.95 to 1.60... so I prefer to let to the current one waiting for an official beta/alpha to be released...
[13:22] <Tonio_> s/extragears/extracodecs/ btw :)
[13:22] <a|wen> ScottK: please test that the icons works for you as well ... "rm -r /var/tmp/kdecache-$USER/kpc/kde-icon-cache.*" to clear the cache
[13:23] <scott_ev> mornin all
[13:23]  * a|wen has a version with the fix in his PPA as well for both jaunty and intrepid
[13:24] <Tonio_> Riddell: about dvd burning that's a known issue, and it'll be fixed upstream shortly, for sure
[13:27] <Riddell> Tonio_: libmp3lame-dev is still a build-dep
[13:28] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum.... we can't build-dep on multivere stuff, but universe is possible ?
[13:28] <Riddell> neither is possible
[13:28] <Tonio_> oki
[13:28] <Tonio_> Riddell: I thought that only concerned the binaries (but this also reminds me of something !)
[13:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll fix that.... but about the versionn I think It's better to wait for an official versioned released
[13:30] <Riddell> maybe, although the current version would cause problems if there was another kde 3 verion released
[13:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: I think that if we decide to upload it we won't take care about kde3 releases
[13:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: they have lots of issues due to ioslaves broken...
[13:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: even currently the kde4 version probably works globaly better than the kde3 one...
[13:34] <Riddell> well backports potentially I was thinking, but indeed we probably wouldn't
[13:34] <Riddell> it doesn't work at all for what I use it for :(
[13:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: dvd burning has an issue, cd burning works all well
[13:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: imho we should upload right now and investigate this with upstream
[13:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: but the longer we wait, the harder it is to get it in the archives
[13:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: and I have no doubt upstream will be helpfull to fix the dvd burning issue shortly...
[13:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: but you decide wether or not to upload
[13:36] <Riddell> I'm afraid I'm against uploading, if I can't burn DVDs then I can't test alpha releases
[13:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum I can understand that :) I have to help in getting this issue fixed then ?
[13:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: ho and you can burn the command line way :)
[13:38] <Riddell> wouldn't know how to do that
[13:38] <Riddell> I know you always think I never use KDE except for konsole but it's not true!
[13:39] <Riddell> ~twitter update someone sent me a plant in the post!
[13:39] <kubotu> status updated
[13:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: hehe, well you are more shell oriented than me btw.... although I'm also changing on that point
[13:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll wait for your approval to upload knemo, btw
[13:46] <Tonio_> rgreening: ping ?
[13:47] <Tonio_> rgreening: https://edge.launchpad.net/~packagekit/+archive/ppa as promissed
[13:51] <ScottK> Riddell: Just in case you're keeping score, my koffice build built, so kdelibs4-doc is clear for NBS removal ....
[13:52] <Riddell> Tonio_: revu'ed http://revu.ubuntuwire.org/p/knemo
[13:53] <Riddell> ScottK: saw that, thanks
[13:53] <Riddell> what's kdelibs4-doc?  it's not in my apt-cache
[13:54] <Tonio_> Riddell: about the fact you have to go in kcontrol, that's normal (as said on the kde-apps page) could be better, I agree
[13:54] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll add the motu address in control and upload, thanks
[13:54] <Riddell> strange
[13:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe I should add a readme.debian page about this
[13:57] <Tonio_> Riddell: well it won't monitor any of your cards by default, unless you configure it for, but it should prompt you to do so at first run eventually...
[13:58] <JontheEchidna> Do you think it'd be possible to get a FFe for this: http://arorabrowser.blogspot.com/2009/02/05.html ? It fixes a memleak that wouldn't have been there if we hadn't updated to Qt 4.5
[13:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll fix the package description, that's even better
[13:59] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: yes I think that would be good
[14:06] <rgreening> Tonio_: ty.
[14:06] <Tonio_> rgreening: you're welcome :)
[14:07] <Tonio_> rgreening: what about your second patch ? were you waiting for me to finish it ?
[14:07] <Tonio_> rgreening: seems to work well, so I'll ping glatzor to upload as soon as possible
[14:07] <rgreening> I wanted to work from newer version.
[14:07] <rgreening> ya.
[14:07] <rgreening> :)
[14:17] <ScottK> Riddell: So when Mark says, "Mark Shuttleworth says: Yes, it will be integrated into Kubuntu ..." - http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/265 - does that actually mean "will" or "we're going to discuss it with the community"?
[14:23] <a|wen> ScottK: arts removal bug 333847
[14:23] <Riddell> ScottK: both I expect
[14:24] <ScottK> Riddell: He's going to do what he's going to do, but I really find the idea of replacing chunks of upstream very disheartening.  I do hope he can be convinced to work with KDE instead.
[14:25] <ScottK> a|wen: Once I saw your kile patch I slapped my forehead.  That's exactly the problem and those kinds of problems are hard to see.
[14:26] <Riddell> I'd expect patches rather than replacing anything
[14:26] <seele> hmm.. i'd like to know what influence i've had on the notify-osd spec
[14:26] <ScottK> seele: I was wondering about that too.
[14:27] <seele> *two* qt developers have been hired?
[14:27] <ScottK> Riddell: The spec as written proposes an alternative implementation.  If that's not what they plan, they ought to change their spec.
[14:27]  * seele looks at Riddell 
[14:27] <a|wen> ScottK: yeah, it is the smaller changes that is harder to see ... especially when the icon cache fools you so it still doesn't work after moving them, he
[14:29] <ScottK> a|wen: The arts bug is in the hands of the Canonical archive admins now.
[14:30] <a|wen> thx
[14:31] <ScottK> a|wen: You really ought to be working on a MOTU application.
[14:31] <JontheEchidna> a|wen isn't an MOTU yet????
[14:31] <ScottK> Nope.
[14:31] <a|wen> ScottK: i've actually got it started ...
[14:32] <Riddell> ScottK: it says that it should be using knotify and not a replacement, that's what you want
[14:32] <JontheEchidna> I always assumed he was...
[14:32]  * a|wen starts writing some more on it
[14:33]  * Riddell looks at seele 
[14:33] <seele> two?
[14:34] <Riddell> count them baby
[14:35] <ScottK> Riddell: That's not how I read the spec (I admit on a re-read it's ambiguous).  My read is that they will extend notify-osd to provide an implementation of the KNotification API.
[14:35] <seele> Riddell: i only know of one! i'm being left out!
[14:35] <ScottK> Note that the spec is a spec about notify-osd.
[14:45] <ScottK> a|wen: kile uploaded.  Thank you for your contribution to Kubuntu.
[14:45] <a|wen> ScottK: perfect!
[14:53] <Riddell> nhandler: contratulations on becoming revu master
[14:54] <vorian> revu master?
[14:54] <vorian> ohmy
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: just about done with arora
[14:57] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: lovely
[14:57] <JontheEchidna> bug 333839
[14:57]  * Riddell reads bug 253854 and wonders if it's not too late to switch to phonon built from Qt
[14:59] <JontheEchidna> Doesn't Qt 4.5 use phonon 4.3.0?
[15:01] <Riddell> 4.3.1
[15:01] <JontheEchidna> better, even
[15:09] <davmor2> Riddell: What the bloody big K wasn't clue enough ;)
[15:10] <Riddell> it didn't feel complete
[15:11] <davmor2> :)
[15:19] <rgreening> Riddell: ++1 on qt phonon (if at all possible) .. would be nice.
[15:23] <Riddell> rgreening: for jambi?
[15:28] <rgreening> Riddell: for KDE
[15:28] <rgreening> in  general
[15:28] <Riddell> rgreening: why?  KDE apps work fine
[15:29] <rgreening> :). In the qt build, you meantioned you had to do something with phonon.. and I had to disable in jambi as a consequence. would be nice not to have to disable the qt stuff
[15:34] <rgreening> Riddell: so, wrt bug 253854... are we still broken for 9.04?
[15:37] <Riddell> rgreening: not for the original posters problem
[15:37] <rgreening> ok.
[15:37] <Riddell> the question is if there are other problems
[16:11] <rgreening> Riddell: there must be a way to package/provide this phonon from qt so as it's differentiated from KDE.
[16:11] <rgreening> fabo: what does debian do?
[16:12] <Riddell> rgreening: it's the same thing, just some different install locations
[16:12] <Riddell> debian builds the standalone one same as we do and misses out on qt 4.5 webkit use of phonon and doesn't have jambi
[16:13] <rgreening> Riddell: so the question is, could we package it, use the qt location, make kde prefer the kde one? or do some kind of alternatives?
[16:14] <rgreening> or if its the same, could we install some symlinks to make qt find the kde seperated package?
[16:16] <Riddell> we could (or the apps in question could just fix their build system to look in the kde location)
[16:16] <Riddell> rgreening: but I really don't see anything wrong with just using phonon built from qt.  we'd need to work out how to package the xine backend separately and we'd need to check carefully that everything still works like the kcontrol module
[16:16] <Riddell> it's just a bit of a big change for post feature freeze
[16:16]  * ScottK votes getting 4.5 working well is probably enough fun for the moment.
[16:17] <JontheEchidna> +1 on ScottK's comment
[16:18] <rgreening> Riddell: we could do it in a PPA and have the ninjas test. and then to kubuntu-experimental/testing for more users to test... then maybe update later
[16:18] <JontheEchidna> btw, bug 333839 is ready for FFe acks if anybody wants to give them ^_^
[16:18] <Riddell> rgreening: we already add symlinks to work around jambi's inflexible build system, one more for phonon wouldn't be a problem (but you know how long buliding qt takes...)
[16:19] <rgreening> Riddell: testing symlinks could be done manually. Add them, see if it works. if it does, do a build with them in it.
[16:19] <rgreening> JontheEchidna, a|wen: what was the issue with kubuntu_57_panel_notifications_conf.diff. It applys fine here. Doe shte compile break or something else?
[16:20] <a|wen> rgreening: the problem is that it causes double-notifications (at least some time for some people)
[16:20] <JontheEchidna> yeah, it won't compile
[16:20] <JontheEchidna> the double notifications will happen after the systray settings change (e.g. hide an icon)
[16:21] <rgreening> a|wen: I get double notification without it.
[16:21] <JontheEchidna> rly?
[16:21] <rgreening> yes, in kopete for example.
[16:21] <rgreening> maybe its just kopete.
[16:22] <JontheEchidna> without the patch I can no longer reproduce the duplicate notification issue
[16:23] <rgreening> In kopete, I have multiple accounts. when a contact comes online for one, I get notifications for more than one, but should get one.
[16:24] <JontheEchidna> yeah, that might not be the same bug
[16:24] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: prob not.
[16:24] <rgreening> where'd this patch come from and whats it do?
[16:24] <a|wen> rgreening: it's from upstream svn ... to be able to switch back to the old-type non-hiding notifications
[16:24] <JontheEchidna> trunk, allows you to return to using old-style knotificatiosn
[16:25] <rgreening> oh.
[16:32] <a|wen> ScottK, JontheEchidna, yuriy, Riddell, rgreening and anyone who feels left out: when you are in a good mood one of the days :) please consider helping my application https://wiki.kubuntu.org/AndreasWenning/DeveloperApplicationTemplate
[16:39] <claydoh> did we announce moving kde4.2 into backports anywhere?
[16:42] <a|wen> claydoh: i'm pretty sure no
[16:43] <claydoh> I am noticing a few ml and forum folk with what may be issues wwith broken plasmoids and even desktops
[16:44] <claydoh> all of a sudden
[16:44] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: kdeworkspace is at like 95%, no build fail. when does it die?
[16:44] <JontheEchidna> aroudn 60%
[16:45] <rgreening> works for me here. did you build local or in pbuilder or ?
[16:45] <claydoh> possible conflicts with having both backports and the experimental ppa repo enabled maybe?
[16:46] <a|wen> claydoh: i have both enabled without any problems ... but there is some possible pitfalls when upgrading from kde4.1.4 to kde4.2 regarding plasmoids
[16:47] <a|wen> claydoh: sometimes it is solvable by removing the plasmoid and inserting it again ... any particular plasmoid giving problems?
[16:47] <claydoh> I have people with plenty of the plasmoids "broken" but have seen 2 folks with unuseable deskrops
[16:48] <claydoh> no windeco/unable to move windows or to type in open apps in some cases
[16:48] <a|wen> claydoh: if they end up in a half-upgraded state, then it is very likely that someting could break ... upgrading fully should cure most things
[16:50]  * ScottK marked on a|wen's application.  Someone else's turn.
[16:50] <a|wen> claydoh: is there any pattern in a particular plasmoid(s) ... especially if removing / adding doesn't help?
[16:50]  * a|wen hands ScottK a cookie
[16:51] <claydoh> not, not yet, the two I am looking at are the unuseable desktop ones, apps can't be moved or typed into no windeco
[16:52] <claydoh> and one person has tried updating, but shows no updates, and gwenview held back
[16:54] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: kdebase-workspace just finished building locally here.
[16:55] <a|wen> ScottK: did all plasmoids from the kubuntu-experimental ppa get moved to -backports?
[16:55] <rgreening> claydoh: try having the users mov/rename the plasmarc and plasma-appletsrc file in the .kde dir. and see if the default plasma setup works
[16:55] <ScottK> They did not.
[16:55] <ScottK> We need someone to do that.
[16:55] <ScottK> IIRC JontheEchidna volunteered to upload them.
[16:55] <rgreening> *shoots* JontheEchidna :)
[16:56] <a|wen> claydoh: ^^ there is your reason for single plasmoids not working
[16:56] <claydoh> thats the easy one :)
[16:56] <rgreening> quicklaunch is the real bad on from kdebase-workspace iirc.
[16:56] <a|wen> yeah, thats a default one, iirc
[16:56] <rgreening> plasma crashes. do the move suggestion above and those whould start working.
[16:57] <JontheEchidna> the quicklaunch crash only affects Qt 4.5 systems
[16:57] <JontheEchidna> it wouldn't affect intrepid
[16:58] <rgreening> ah, correct. then we cannot backport those patches or they break in Qt4.4.3
[16:58] <claydoh> but no one has seen windows with no windeco or similar?
[16:59] <JontheEchidna> claydoh: that happens when not all the packages upgrade because of a file conflict
[16:59] <claydoh> ahhh
[16:59]  * claydoh is dense today
[16:59] <JontheEchidna> all of the kdebase-workspace ones should be fixed by now
[16:59] <rgreening> claydoh: have users try sudo apt-get install -f on command line. see what shows up
[17:02] <ScottK> The plasmoids in Main all got updated in backports.
[17:03] <ScottK> I know we also have some file conflict issues in kdebase-runtime still to fix in backports too.
[17:13] <JontheEchidna> there are also some that also need fixing in trunk in kdepim, kdeartwork, and kdesdk
[17:14] <ScottK> Urgh.
[17:33] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: I pbuilt the wrong revision of workspace.. doh. :) trying again so I can fix the patch.
[17:35] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Don't forget you can upload stuff to backports.
[17:47] <nixternal> Riddell: where did you get that huge KDE sticker from?
[17:47] <Riddell> akadeny I think
[17:48] <Riddell> akademy I think
[17:48] <nixternal> hehe
[18:11] <seele> "The freedesktop.org spec is clear that actions are optional, and that applications should query the notification system to see which optional capabilities it supports..."
[18:11] <seele> does that mean a new spec has been adopted? or is that the *proposed* spec?
[18:12] <JontheEchidna> I haven't heard that anything was accepted
[18:18] <seele> Riddell: Artemis_Fowl lives! He's asking what he needs to do to get KGRUBEditor in for Jaunty.
[18:18] <seele> He's been working on better Automagic support but says he can't do GRUB2 support
[18:19] <Tonio_> hi seele
[18:19] <Tonio_> seele: new kpackagekit is in the packagekit ppa, if you want to test... there are a few UI improvements and fixes
[18:19] <seele> Tonio_: hi! how is your new apartment?
[18:20] <seele> did rgreening get his updates in yet?
[18:20] <Tonio_> seele: fine :) except I have a few internet connection issues
[18:20] <Tonio_> seele: the last patch is still missing but the package is complient to the current one (sources editables)
[18:20] <seele> ok
[18:20] <Tonio_> seele: and my foot is getting better, so everything's perfect :)
[18:21]  * Tonio_ reuploads all packages that have doc/kde4 for new doc path
[18:21] <rgreening> seele: no. I have much work still to do before that can happen. Now that the build is available, I can start migrating to it and implementing the new app-install specification.
[18:22] <seele> Tonio_: what was wrong with your foot?
[18:22] <seele> rgreening: ok.. just checking :)
[18:22] <Tonio_> seele: I got a finger broken :)
[18:22] <seele> Tonio_: you mean a toe? :)
[18:22] <rgreening> np :)
[18:22] <Tonio_> seele: dunno the word, but probably, yes :)
[18:22] <seele> Tonio_: did you do it moving or were you drunk? :D
[18:23] <Tonio_> seele: moving in the dark in the appartment, without any shoes
[18:23] <seele> ow
[18:23] <Tonio_> seele: and no I wasn't drunk, hehe
[18:23] <seele> hehe
[18:24] <rgreening> Riddell: I decided to just add libqtjambi-dev depend on qtjambi-demo for now. It will get us the package and we can look at splitting it up later. I made a note in the changelog.
[18:24] <rgreening> Riddell: It's uploaded to my ppa to build version ~ppa2
[18:32] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: what has/was changed in the notification patch from the original?
[18:32] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: I added a few patches from upstream
[18:33] <rgreening> can I see the original to compare against the current?
[18:33] <JontheEchidna> it's in bzr somewhere
[18:33] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: and is this applied anywhere? I looked in kdesvn and couldn't find it in trunk
[18:33] <JontheEchidna> I don't have the original
[18:33] <JontheEchidna> http://websvn.kde.org:80/trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace/plasma/applets/systemtray/core/manager.cpp?view=log
[18:34] <JontheEchidna> those two revisions after the GUI was added
[18:34] <JontheEchidna> but not the third
[18:37] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: but is that patch applied anywhere in trunk? doesn't appear to be?
[18:38] <rgreening> nm.
[18:38] <rgreening> I see now
[18:44] <apachelogger> ScottK: I uploaded libs workspace and runtime for lzma testing to my ppa
[18:44] <apachelogger> => off again :)
[18:52] <JontheEchidna> Why won't this work? sudo pbuilder build arora_0.5-0ubuntu1.dsc --logfilebuild.log
[18:52] <JontheEchidna> oh
[18:52] <JontheEchidna> that explains it
[18:52] <JontheEchidna> wait, no it doesn't. It was correct in konsole
[18:53] <a|wen> JontheEchidna: what error do you get?
[18:53] <JontheEchidna> nothing, just no log file
[18:53] <JontheEchidna> :/
[18:55] <a|wen> JontheEchidna: try with --pkgname-logfile ?
[18:55] <a|wen> takes no arguments
[18:56] <JontheEchidna> --arora-logfile?
[18:56] <a|wen> no ... --pkgname-logfile is the name of the option
[18:56] <JontheEchidna> oh, ok
[18:56] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: sudo pbuilder build  --logfile build.log arora_0.5-0ubuntu1.dsc
[18:57] <JontheEchidna> Thanks
[18:57] <a|wen> oh
[18:57]  * vorian has buildlogs automagic in his pbuilderrc
[19:00]  * a|wen has a pbuilder wrapper and associated pdebuild wrapper doing the tricks
[19:01] <ghostcube> ehlo peoples
[19:01] <ghostcube> :)
[19:07]  * DasKreech has new jaunty impressions for Gnome if anyone cares
[19:08] <shtylman> do share
[19:09] <DasKreech> It's really snappy
[19:09] <DasKreech> They have stripped out even more stuff
[19:09] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: I'm redoing the patch. Why did you say the top two commits and not the 3rd?
[19:09] <DasKreech> Which I guess is good for some folks
[19:09] <JontheEchidna> not the top two
[19:09] <DasKreech> The new notifications are rapidly annoying
[19:09] <JontheEchidna> the two after the initial gui commit
[19:09] <JontheEchidna> and not the top one
[19:09] <DasKreech> When they work I have to do more steps to get to something
[19:10] <DasKreech> When they don't work I have to do a LOT more steps
[19:10] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: oh, I got it backwards.
[19:10] <rgreening> lol
[19:10] <JontheEchidna> lol
[19:10] <rgreening> got it now
[19:10] <shtylman> heh
[19:10] <rgreening> Im a lefty, so my brain works opposite to what you think :)
[19:11] <scott_ev> if I'm entering a bug about a problem with the way a theme change is acting, what package is that?
[19:11] <DasKreech> Things in general move really smoothly though
[19:13] <DasKreech> the notifications might work better on KDE than Gnome
[19:13] <shtylman> thats good to know
[19:13] <shtylman> I don't like the look of notifications on kde currently
[19:14] <a|wen> scott_ev: might depend on the exact problem?
[19:15] <DasKreech> But only because you can bypass almost all notifications with shortcut keys in KDE
[19:15] <DasKreech> shtylman: They are under review
[19:15] <shtylman> thats good to know
[19:17] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: I found out where the patch was messed up
[19:17] <JontheEchidna> what'd I do?
[19:18] <rgreening> I'll paste a diff...
[19:18] <a|wen> scott_ev: in most cases i've seen until now, it was a problem with the part acting weird, eg. the panel; so best guess is reporting against the part doing it wrong
[19:19] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/122522/
[19:20] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: line 42/43 is the big faux pas
[19:20] <JontheEchidna> blah, iFail
[19:21] <rgreening> d-> was missing and swap 'q' with 'this' :)
[19:22] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: anyway, let me try out my patch.
[19:26] <rgreening> "Hi, my name is Jon, and I'm a patch-o-holic"
[19:28] <DasKreech> Hmm The notifications follow up button just disappeared
[19:33] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: sez the person who pushed half-working python plasma bindings into kdebase-workspace a few days before release :P
[19:33] <rgreening> oh my :)
[19:33] <JontheEchidna> :)
[19:33] <rgreening> That was like 6 months ago, Im much wiser now
[19:33] <JontheEchidna> hehe
[19:33] <rgreening> and your excuse :)
[19:34] <JontheEchidna> ~order cookies for rgreening
[19:34]  * kubotu slides a whole bunch of world's finest cookies down the bar to rgreening.
[19:34] <rgreening> lol
[19:35] <scott_ev> a|wen: thank you
[19:37] <rickspencer3> hey guys, when do you all have your regular meetings?
[19:37] <Riddell> I think you're making an assumption rickspencer3 :)
[19:37] <rickspencer3> lol
[19:37] <rgreening> I think we're due
[19:37] <rgreening> :)
[19:37] <Riddell> it's not regular, never found a time that suits everyone
[19:37] <Riddell> but yes we are
[19:37] <rickspencer3> okay
[19:39] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: Hiya
[19:39] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: hi
[19:39] <DasKreech> trying out the Notifications in Gnome
[19:40] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: cool
[19:40] <rickspencer3> I'll be interested to hear what you think
[19:40] <rickspencer3> make sure you let the dx team know too
[19:40] <shtylman> how much faster do you think qt/kde would be if the signals/slots were template based?
[19:41] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: It would work better on KDE :)
[19:42] <DasKreech> The reflex action is to jump to something important as far as i can tell there isn't a way to do that smoothly on Gnome
[19:42] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: what do you mean "jump on"? you mean like "click on"?
[19:43] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: no in KDE I can activate any window that's requesting attention
[19:43] <DasKreech> So if I get a notification that non interactive it's one button press to bring what ever it was to the front
[19:44] <DasKreech> Gnome can't do that so it's a little annoying since I have to hunt down things
[19:44] <DasKreech> and really low priority things  are a lot more steps
[19:44] <DasKreech> but I like the presentation of the notifications
[19:45] <DasKreech> The slowing down of the notifications really makes them easy to go through or ignore as needed
[19:45] <Riddell> shtylman: I don't imagine that's a limiting factor
[19:46] <shtylman> Riddell: I don't mean its a limiting factor..I am just curious what people thing the speed gains might be
[19:46] <Riddell> DasKreech: I don't follow that, you click on the window in the taskbar in gnome same as kde
[19:46] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: things that have windows are eight a)messages which should go into the messaging indicator and be easy to open, or b) just open
[19:46] <Riddell> shtylman: you'd need to ask someone who knows the qt internals
[19:47] <DasKreech> Riddell: no I don't
[19:47] <shtylman> Riddell: just for information, I did a comparison. make a qobject that had a qt style signal and a templated signal. I also made a slot object to receive. I then emit the signal 10 million times and time the qt one versus the templated one
[19:47] <DasKreech> In KDE I press Alt+ctrl+A
[19:47] <DasKreech> or Ctrl+Shift+I
[19:47] <shtylman> RIddell: this was done out of curiosity mostly...but the results were interesting
[19:48] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: the mesage indicator disappeared when I set my Time zone
[19:48] <DasKreech> not sure where it is now
[19:48] <DasKreech> Waiting on someone new to message me to see if it will come back
[19:48] <shtylman> compiled with -03 the qt  method timed in at 2.5 seconds, the templated method timed in at .055 seconds
[19:49] <shtylman> without optimizations the qt method still takes 2.5 seconds and the templated one takes .8 seconds
[19:50] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: that's weird!
[19:50] <rickspencer3> perhaps log a bug?
[19:50] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: this is 5 minutes before your question. I don't know enough to know what happened
[19:51] <rickspencer3> I'm looking forward to alpha5 this week
[19:51] <DasKreech> Plus I've had people who I'm talking to message me and the indicator doesn't come back
[19:51] <rickspencer3> I'm going to try Kubuntu as my main desktop
[19:51] <DasKreech> I'll see if someone new messages me if it returns
[19:51] <rickspencer3> I haven't had it as my main desktop for like three years, probably worth trying again
[19:51] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: ha ha prepare for shock
[19:52] <rickspencer3> laters, gotta run, be back in a couple of hours
[19:55] <Riddell> shtylman: I'm impressed but I fear your low level hacking is lost on us, maybe there's a qt mailing list which would be interested though
[19:56] <DasKreech> #qt
[19:57]  * _StefanS_ is rather impressed with kubuntu/jaunty as it is now
[19:58] <_StefanS_> pretty fast too :D
[19:58] <DasKreech> I'm slowly fighting KDE 4.3 envy
[19:59] <_StefanS_> DasKreech: the current svn version ?
[20:04] <DasKreech> _StefanS_: no the constant neverending cycle of wanting all the new stuff in the next major version and once you have it in two weeks the blog posts about what's going to happen in the next major version have you completely dissatisfied
[20:07] <_StefanS_> DasKreech: I totally understand that feeling :D
[20:07] <_StefanS_> DasKreech: but things have _really_ improved alot I think over that past two versions
[20:07] <DasKreech> _StefanS_: that's the Problem!
[20:07] <DasKreech> Whee KDE 4.0 is kinda nice
[20:08] <DasKreech> WOw KDE 4.1 looks even better
[20:08] <DasKreech> *wait wait*
[20:08] <DasKreech> nice
[20:08] <DasKreech> Woahhh Lookit KDE 4.2
[20:08] <DasKreech> *wait wait wait*
[20:08] <jussi01> *g*
[20:08] <DasKreech> This is sweet
[20:08] <DasKreech> Here's is what's happening in KDE 4.3
[20:08] <_StefanS_> hehe
[20:08] <DasKreech> NANANANANANANANANA
[20:08] <DasKreech> Not listening
[20:09] <_StefanS_> rm -r dot.kde.org
[20:09] <DasKreech> planetkde.org is the problem
[20:09] <_StefanS_> it will keep most of that stuff away :D
[20:09] <_StefanS_> ah yep, that was the one i meant
[20:09] <_StefanS_> but you get the idea hehe
[20:10] <DasKreech> Yeha i have like 300 un read posts in akregator just cause it looks interesting But I really can't deal with the mental exercise of imagining how cool it will be to have that stuff
[20:11] <_StefanS_> I think the number one thing that has helped me appreciate kde 4 even more is that nvidia has improved their blob so much the past months.
[20:11] <_StefanS_> its day and night in 2d performance
[20:11] <_StefanS_> (I dislike too many effect)
[20:11] <_StefanS_> effects even.
[20:22] <JontheEchidna> ugh, all my bugmail lost its date info :/
[20:23] <JontheEchidna> but the mail regains the info when I click on it???
[20:23] <DasKreech> _StefanS_: Yeah Hopefully Some Xorg ugs get looked at too
[20:26]  * ScottK hands DasKreech a 'b'.
[20:27] <_StefanS_> DasKreech: yes..
[20:28] <DasKreech> ScottK: This correction was rought to you y the letter ' '
[20:34] <rgreening> Nice article... ScottK Im sure you'd appreciate this... http://commit-digest.org/issues/2009-02-08/
[20:34] <rgreening> see the story bit about the desktop file security.
[20:34] <DasKreech> .desktop
[20:35] <rgreening> ya, s'was whut I ment :)
[20:35] <rgreening> :P
[20:36] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: I uploaded kdebase-workspace to my PPA to build.
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> w0t
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> *w00t
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> I testbuilt the soliddevice dataengine patch I committed earlier, so you shouldn't have trouble with that
[20:38] <DasKreech> Wait no visual garbage in Jaunty ?
[20:38] <DasKreech> seele: ping
[20:41] <ScottK> So are we going to backport that?
[20:42] <JontheEchidna> I believe that Riddell backported that this weekend
[20:42] <ScottK> Kewl.
[20:42] <JontheEchidna> irt the desktop file secutiry
[20:42] <JontheEchidna> *security
[20:43] <ScottK> Does this qualify as a 'security' issue that should be fixed in older releases too?
[20:44] <JontheEchidna> The security team's taking care of it, iirc
[20:50] <ScottK> OK.
[20:50] <ScottK> Great.
[20:50]  * ScottK considers his Dapper desktop uses Riddell's unofficial 3.5.5 packages and that's another reason to upgrade.
[21:06] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: So we need to update intrepid-backports then.
[21:08] <JontheEchidna> bug 332069
[21:08] <JontheEchidna> ugh, so much to do
[21:30] <DasKreech> rickspencer3-afk: Got new people talking to me it hasn't come back
[21:37] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Riddell fixed the backport already too.
[21:38] <JontheEchidna> hurrah!
[21:39] <JontheEchidna> looks like apachelogger's lzma stuff failed to upload...
[21:39]  * JontheEchidna fixes it and uploads to his ppa, though he really should be fixing some boogs
[21:44] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: l guess you should log a bug
[21:45] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: did you try adding it back back right clicking and using "add to panel"?
[21:49] <seele> DasKreech: pong
[21:49] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I would appreciate it if you could get some clarification from Dx about their plans for KDE.  Do they plan to implement notify-osd as an alterntative implementation of KNotification or do they plan to work with upstream KDE to improve the existing implementation?  Different people here get different impressions from the spec as drafted.
[21:50] <rickspencer3> ScottK: ack
[21:51] <rickspencer3> I was planning to stop in the channel around 1500 UTC tommorow to discuss how Kubuntu/Dx collaboration, so we can maybe touch base then
[21:52] <ScottK> rickspencer3: OK.  It'll be hard to have that conversation without knowing the answer to my question.
[21:52] <seele> rickspencer3: maybe we should schedule a meeting to do that so everyone who needs ot be there is there
[21:52] <seele> Riddell: ping, what should I tell Artemis_Fowl about KGRUBEditor?
[22:01] <rickspencer3> seele: could you be here at 1500UTC tomorrow?
[22:02] <DasKreech> readding Information crashed pidgin
[22:02] <DasKreech> But the mail thing is back at least
[22:03] <seele> rickspencer3: no, i'm not available until after 17:00UTC tomorrow
[22:03] <rickspencer3> mrph
[22:04] <rickspencer3> maybe I'll stop in at 1500UTC and then again at 1800UTC (or s0)
[22:05] <rickspencer3> seele: I just want to generate some discussion about how best to collaborate, so a meeting might be too "formal"
[22:05] <rickspencer3> also, it would probably be an ongoing discussion, not just one meeting
[22:05] <DasKreech> mailing list?
[22:05] <ScottK> Probably not.
[22:06] <ScottK> We need some more focused discussion first to establish if there is any basis for collaboration.
[22:06] <rickspencer3> ScottK: there is always basis for collaboration
[22:06] <rickspencer3> you make it sound like we're warring factions in some kind of civl war
[22:06] <rickspencer3> I'm pretty sure we're all on the same side
[22:06] <ScottK> In cases where there is some commonality of interest that is true.
[22:07] <DasKreech> There is a desktop Experience team
[22:07] <DasKreech> Kubuntu would like a Desktop Experience
[22:07] <ScottK> I'd argue we have one.
[22:07] <rickspencer3> lol
[22:07] <DasKreech> :-)
[22:07] <DasKreech> Common
[22:07] <ScottK> Not at all.
[22:07] <ScottK> If I wanted an experience common with Ubuntu, I'd run Ubuntu.
[22:08] <DasKreech> ScottK: Smile :)
[22:08] <DasKreech> Yeah we know
[22:08] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: So what time?
[22:08] <rickspencer3> I'll drop in tomorrow at 1500UTC and then again later (I have a lot of calls)
[22:09] <ScottK> Honestly I think there are some good points in the proposal, but it's difficult to know if there is a reasonable way to approach them.
[22:09] <rickspencer3> that said, I lurk in this channel every day, so don't feel like you can't ping me
[22:09] <DasKreech> Cool
[22:09] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: are you against contentless pings ?
[22:09] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: you mean when you just say "ping"
[22:09] <rickspencer3> ?
[22:09] <DasKreech> Yeah without anything
[22:10] <DasKreech> Most people who are busy prefer ping with what you want to talk about eeen with no response
[22:10]  * Sput found that video of those notifications quite shiny, what with all the blur and translucency, but personally wouldn't use a notification system that didn't provide interactivity
[22:10] <DasKreech>  so if I leave and you come by you can still see it
[22:11] <DasKreech> Also prevents you responding two days later and I have no recollection of the burning burning important issue :)
[22:11] <DasKreech> Sput: That's what I'm finding
[22:11] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: I think if you have a question, you just ask it, but if you want to start a deeper conversation, you say "ping", but I think customs are different in different places
[22:11] <DasKreech> Someone logs in and I have to go find Pidgin and find the person to say hi
[22:11] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: ok noted
[22:13] <DasKreech> Sput: Also I have a insta reaction to click on the notification if it's something important
[22:14] <DasKreech> Which makes it disappear
[22:14] <DasKreech> So I move the mouse away and it comes back
[22:14] <DasKreech> So I go to click again and it goes away
[22:14] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: you may find that grow out of that response over time
[22:14] <DasKreech> Yeah I know
[22:14] <DasKreech> It's just what I'm used to
[22:15] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: I do find myself completely ignoring them now though
[22:15] <rickspencer3> I now find that when I see a notification it doesn't make my heart race "ohmygoddoIhavetoclickonthisthingbeforeitgoesaway"
[22:15] <DasKreech> if something happens in the corner I don't even look
[22:15] <rickspencer3> I just read it
[22:15] <rickspencer3> interesting ... I definately read them
[22:15] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: which so far I'm finding is bad since not all the notifications are logged
[22:16] <rickspencer3> yeah, but if the notification requires that you see it, it shouldn't be an ephemeral notification, so you shouldn't stress about missing them
[22:16] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: That's partly because I have someone who keeps logging in and out so since I can't do anything about it I just stopped looking
[22:16] <DasKreech> Not sure if that would happen in normal stuff
[22:16] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[22:17] <DasKreech> I got back the applet but so far I haven't seen anything in the log but Pidgin
[22:17] <DasKreech> Sooo not sure if that's expected
[22:17] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: if you get a message now, it should be logged in there
[22:18] <ScottK> Sput: I tend to agree with you about wanting actions to work.  I think it's good not to require a notification to be dismissed, but I don't see any sense in removing the ability to get an action if you click on it.
[22:19] <Sput> ScottK: yes, I feel that often notifications provide a direct shortcut to something you want to have happen *now*, such as kopete's "Show" and "Ignore" actions
[22:20] <ScottK> So I have a hard time getting past this proposal takes away something I want.
[22:20] <DasKreech> Yeah
[22:20] <DasKreech> as you said that I got one :-)
[22:21] <DasKreech> ScottK: I think it's a harder sell if you don't know
[22:21] <DasKreech> You know what a notification is for and what it does
[22:22] <DasKreech> From the perspective of someone who is learning the computer for the first time having things come up with some giving you delayed actions and some not is hard to rationalize I would expect
[22:22] <DasKreech> I'll have to see this on a fuller scale where all notifications have priorities and are tied back to what called them
[22:23] <DasKreech> So far I've seen nothing but pidgin
[22:25] <ScottK> I always thought the Kopete notifications were very clean and sensible.  The one thing I'd missed is having it go away in a bit if I ignore it.  KNotification in 4.2 seems to do that by default now.
[22:26] <ScottK> I guess there are other aspect of this that bother me too.  The notifications spec is not yet an approved FDO spec (AFAIK) and so I think it's premature to declare packages that don't comply with it 'buggy'.
[22:32] <maco> ScottK: do you mean canonical's notification spec or do you mean the one canonical refers to when saying "but the spec says they should check the notification daemon's capabilities"?
[22:32] <ScottK> The one they refer to.
[22:32] <maco> oh ok
[22:32] <ScottK> So they've grabbed a draft spec and declared all non-implementers buggy.
[22:32] <ScottK> This is not, IMO good citizenship.
[22:33] <maco> well it makes sense to me to check capabilities...isnt the saying "be liberal in input and conservative in output"?
[22:33] <ScottK> Yes.  It's reasonable to do it, but it's in no sense a bug if you don't since up until last week there wasn't an implementation in the wild where it matters.
[22:34] <maco> but i guess the other side of that coin is that canonical's should accept whatever the app's doing
[22:37] <Sput> also KDE upstream, last time I talked to them about that, said that the fdo spec lacks stuff, which is why knotify still doesn't use it.
[22:37] <Sput> taking away features from that doesn't sound like making it lack less
[22:39] <maco> Sput: more of "making features optional"
[22:39] <DasKreech> Does Gnome use the FDo spec?
[22:40] <DasKreech> far as I know they don't
[22:40] <Sput> gnome's notification daemon implements the spec, afaik
[22:40] <maco> i agree that having buttons on a notification seems silly because they're small. however, clicking on the notification is a *nice* thing
[22:41] <maco> though it *is* annoying when i cant see my typing line in irssi because of a libnotify popup. so still being able to make them invisible like canonical wants to do when you hover but also having something that can make the notification "active" (holding ctrl, maybe?) so you can click it would be nice
[22:41] <maco> clicking a notification from pidgin to make the IM window visible, for example
[22:42] <ScottK> maco: Also, the only thing I've seen from KDE upstream about this proposal is http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/12/notifications.html
[22:42] <DasKreech> maco: Correction clicking a message notification
[22:42] <seele> Sput: afaik the proposed spec will put the actions as an optional feature
[22:42] <DasKreech> If someone logs in there is no way to easily get to that person
[22:42] <ScottK> This doesn't give me a lot of basis for optimism that much of this will ever go upstream in KDE.
[22:43] <ScottK> seele: But they aren't optional in notify-osd AFAICT.
[22:44] <rickspencer3> is there nothing in Kubuntu that is not in KDE?
[22:45] <maco> DasKreech: well you're right....presence and message notifications
[22:45]  * DasKreech can't think of much
[22:45] <maco> rickspencer3: very very little
[22:45] <seele> rickspencer3: maybe a few backported or unofficial patches, a few defaults changes, but we're pretty much KDE
[22:45] <maco> the administration apps arent upstream
[22:45] <seele> maco: what administration apps?
[22:45] <DasKreech> System settings and printer I think but those got moved upstream
[22:45] <DasKreech>  adept obviously
[22:45] <seele> system-config-printer-kde isn't but it would be nice once it is finished that it will be. it was written to replace what was in kde3 upstream
[22:46] <maco> seele: didnt someone at the party say that kde reserves some things as distro's domain
[22:46] <seele> adept is going away to use kpackagekit which upstream is interested in using globally
[22:46] <maco> ?
[22:46] <seele> maco: of course we have the decision to change stuff if we want, but that doesnt mean we do
[22:47] <maco> and i recall someone pointing out on your blog that the system settings thing in kde 3 that you showed on there was kubuntu's, not what's found elsewhere
[22:47] <DasKreech> That's all I can think of that's kubuntu and not KDE
[22:47] <rickspencer3> ScottK: it just seems like you take these very extreme positions, and impute such harsh intentions to people, and I can't imagine that it's because of some sort of need for KDE "purity"
[22:47] <DasKreech> maco: I just said it was pushed upstream
[22:47] <DasKreech> It's KDE now
[22:47] <maco> DasKreech: ah missed that
[22:47] <maco> ok
[22:47] <seele> maco: kgrubeditor? that is freely available, it isn't just kubuntu. it's just not in kde proper
[22:47] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Not at all.
[22:47] <DasKreech> seele: ah good one I guess. Who else uses that ?
[22:48]  * Sput just has this feeling that the wohle notification discussion so clearly shows the different philosophies of gnome and kde
[22:48] <seele> DasKreech: whoever downloads it from sourceforge
[22:48] <rickspencer3> so obviously we make choices about what is best for users
[22:48] <DasKreech> Sput: Well it's not a Gnome discussion
[22:48] <maco> seele: this comment: http://weblog.obso1337.org/2008/system-settings-as-a-design-lesson/#comment-157249
[22:48] <Sput> and since gnome and KDE have such different philosophies when it comes to user interaction, it's gonna be hard to find common ground
[22:48] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I recognize that I'm currently holding opinions on a very slim amount of data.  All I know is what's been disclosed and that's not much.  With different data, I might have a different opinion.
[22:49] <rickspencer3> I think there is plenty of time to discuss the specific merits of the design decisions in notification-OSD, and there will be lots of usage data as well
[22:49] <maco> can someone just port Growl and be done with it?
[22:49] <rickspencer3> I just want to ensure that everyone is approaching 9.10 with a positive, cooperative, and can-do attitude, with respect for the legitimate needs and interests of everyone involved
[22:49] <DasKreech> Sput: It's a canonical project. Detached from Gnome
[22:50] <Sput> DasKreech: I have the feeling that the proposal is heavily influenced by gnomish philosophy, as in taking away features to make things supposedly easier for the user
[22:50] <ScottK> rickspencer3: You don't know me very well.  I do revisit my opinions and change them based on new data.
[22:50] <DasKreech> Sput: Maybe.
[22:50] <rickspencer3> Sput: not
[22:50] <Sput> DasKreech: and I don't mean that negative
[22:50] <Sput> it's just a different approach
[22:50] <seele> maco: it was Kubuntu's and then KDE adopted it upstream in KDE4
[22:50] <rickspencer3> the design is really desktop agnotistic
[22:50] <DasKreech> But I think that Gnome has issues with it as well
[22:50] <rickspencer3> Sput: ack
[22:50] <ScottK> rickspencer3: He's not the only one that feels that way.
[22:50] <maco> seele: ah ok
[22:50] <DasKreech> And Mark did say it's an experiement
[22:50] <DasKreech> if it works great
[22:50] <rickspencer3> I didn't take it as negative Sput
[22:51] <maco> Sput: its *pretty* i'll give it that...
[22:51] <DasKreech> if not then oh well
[22:51] <Sput> yes, it is pretty, but it comes with the cost of not having features I, as a user, value
[22:51] <ScottK> Conceptually I don't think you put 'experiments' on user's default desktops.  That's not an experiment, it's a production decision.
[22:51] <DasKreech> maco: Yeah till I started to ignore it :)
[22:51] <Sput> gnome has this approach of determining what most users don't seem to need, and removing those features, in the interest of making things easy
[22:51] <Sput> I'm a KDE user because I *do* want maximum features :)
[22:52] <Sput> so those philosophies clash
[22:52] <maco> i just want to be able to click on a notification to bring its parent into focus. that's it.
[22:52] <DasKreech> ScottK: then argue that it should be toggled
[22:52] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Since you probably don't know ... Sput is one of the upstream developers for Quassel, our new default Kubuntu IRC client.
[22:52] <rickspencer3> I didn't know
[22:52] <rickspencer3> very kewl
[22:52]  * rickspencer3 shakes Sput's hand
[22:52] <rickspencer3> nice to meet you
[22:53] <Sput> (not a [k]ubuntu user though, so I am discussing here as an enduser ;-))
[22:53]  * DasKreech shakes Sput's hand too
[22:53] <Sput> my pleasure.
[22:53] <DasKreech> You are doing good work :)
[22:53] <rickspencer3> Sput: you're more of Gentoo person, right?
[22:53] <DasKreech> Confusing sometimes :) but solid
[22:53] <Sput> rickspencer3: yeah
[22:53] <rickspencer3> kewl
[22:54] <Sput> DasKreech: thanks, working on making it ever slicker and easier to use ;-)
[22:55] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: What parts of the Notifications would you say are of the highest importance to the experiment?
[22:55] <Sput> mmh, first prototype of smart nick completion working here
[22:55] <DasKreech> Sput: I saw :) I was trying quassel a while back and it took me two days to get it running
[22:55] <DasKreech> Sput: Ha ha ha :)
[22:55]  * ScottK heads off for a while ....
[22:55] <DasKreech> Now pretty much when people ask I just tell them to install quassel and try it
[22:56] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: I would say it's the whole framework of having four ways to notify a user that you want their attention
[22:56] <ScottK> rickspencer3: A big part of the problem is that people (like me) are so locked up on the idea of taking actions away that the rest of the message is totally lost.
[22:56] <maco> DasKreech: why was that?
[22:57] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: ack that
[22:57] <maco> ScottK: i think the main point is "don't disrupt the entire desktop for something that's cursory"
[22:57] <Sput> ScottK: right... I saw that video this morning, and I really found it was a nice visual experience, but of course, you can't use it with actions
[22:57] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: Syn
[22:57] <seele> maco: if it's something cursory then there shouldnt be an interruption
[22:57] <DasKreech> maco: why what ?
[22:57] <maco> DasKreech: why'd it take you two days to get quassel running?
[22:58] <rickspencer3> you got to take the whole Fx into account: the right use of ephemeral notifications, the right use of persistent indicators, the right use of opening windows, and the right use of popping dialogs
[22:58] <DasKreech> maco: cause I was just trying out KDE and was spastic
[22:58] <Sput> now maybe one could have transient popups that only display information and fade away and become translucent and all that, *and* persistent notifications with actions on them that can be clicked
[22:58] <maco> seele: for example, when i sign into pidgin using libnotify, i get about 30 messages stacked up on the right side of my screen blocking the entire right 300px and preventing me from doing anything over in that part of the screen. at least this doesnt dothat.
[22:58] <rickspencer3> Sput: An IRC client would use the messaging indicator, so the user could act on the notification, but they wouldn't have to the instant it appeared
[22:58] <DasKreech> I had to install Irssi to figure out the core and why the user for core was different from the one on IRC and how to connect the server and client
[22:59] <rickspencer3> Sput: what you described is the exact design, I think
[22:59] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: Any chance of having the user bump things into bins they want?
[22:59] <rickspencer3> hmmmm
[23:00] <Sput> rickspencer3: so there could be popups with buttons on them, that wouldn't become translucent on hover but rather allow mouse interaction?
[23:00] <maco> i only tried quassel for about 30 seconds. there were two windows of moving text (as opposed to chanlist and nick list), and i was confused, so i went back to irssi
[23:00] <DasKreech> At a app or signal level ?
[23:00] <seele> maco: and many of those messages you probably don't care to see so why are they there
[23:00] <DasKreech> Sput: Yes read the Wiki spec
[23:00] <maco> seele: because i want it to tell me when people sign on *after* i sign on, not as it populates the buddy list
[23:00] <DasKreech> some actually create windows
[23:00] <rickspencer3> Sput: no, the pop-ups fade into a panel indicator that the user can interact with at their leisure
[23:00] <DasKreech> maco: Yeah that's why :)
[23:00] <seele> maco: yes.. but the application isn't smart enough to know you dont want to know when the buddy list populates
[23:01] <rickspencer3> So I guess I misunderstood what you said
[23:01] <seele> it should be
[23:01] <DasKreech> Sput: but those are behind other windows and simply request attention
[23:01] <Sput> mhm.
[23:01] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: you'll get back to me on my question I take it :)
[23:01]  * Sput thinks about desktop setups that don't *have* a panel
[23:01] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: probably not, I have no ideas what you meant :)
[23:02] <maco> seele: right. at least with the new thing, only one shows up at a time and i can still click what it's covering
[23:02] <maco> it doesnt block me from what i want to reach
[23:02] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: can I take say an app or a signal that's currently defined by default as low priority and transisent and say I would like this app to be interactive or urgent
[23:02] <maco> even 1 libnotify popup blocks me from seeing what i'm typing in irssi if the text is too long
[23:02] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: Is there space in the ideas for that?
[23:03] <rickspencer3> DasKreech: dunno
[23:03] <maco> Sput: good point. kde doesnt enforce panels like gnome does, huh?
[23:03] <rickspencer3> probably best to take that up with the design guys
[23:03] <DasKreech> rickspencer3: ok
[23:03] <rickspencer3> they are keen to talk
[23:03] <Sput> maco: yes, plus plasma is currently exploring new panel types, such as a win7-like approach
[23:03] <DasKreech> Gnome enforces panels?
[23:03] <maco> DasKreech: it wont let you delete the last one
[23:03] <Sput> don't forget that plasma is about to do away with the 30 year old traditional WIMP metaphor
[23:04] <DasKreech> oh
[23:04] <DasKreech> why not?
[23:04] <maco> the alt+f2 runbox is part of the panel, so no way to launch then
[23:04] <Sput> maco: that sounds defective by design
[23:04] <maco> if you've got gnome-do, though, you would still have a way to launch. there's a gconf way to get rid of the panel
[23:04] <Sput> why would I need a panel to launch a program?
[23:04] <DasKreech> Sput: cause it's simpler
[23:04] <Sput> why would I want a panel on a 800x480 screen, for example?
[23:04] <maco> Sput: tell me about it. the gnome-panel is the WEIRDEST code ive ever seeen
[23:05] <seele> maco: that's besides the point. it shoulnt be showing you messages you don't care about!
[23:05] <DasKreech> Sput: Not sure a Win-7 like approach means anything regarding progress :)
[23:05] <seele> who cares if they are pretty or dont get in your way. they arent providing value so why are they there
[23:05] <DasKreech> Microsoft hasn't had that great a track record in Desktop paradigms other than a few big hits
[23:05] <seele> the animation of it displaying is drawing your attention and has a cost regardless if you can click on it or not
[23:05] <maco> seele: anyway i need to go to a meeting because people there are upset that im not there when it started 5 minutes ago....2 minutes before my class ended
[23:05] <Sput> DasKreech: I don't have much of an imagination yet either, but people using win7 seem to like it, and some plasma guys are apparently working on implementing some of the more sensible ideas into a new approach
[23:06] <maco> bah not at seele....just in general
[23:06] <DasKreech> seele: Maybe. I just ignore all of them now
[23:06] <Sput> DasKreech: I'm at least excited to see something that is *not* a taskbar :)
[23:06] <DasKreech> Sput: haha agreed
[23:06] <DasKreech> Though Plasma had them first and long enough that Windows 7 looks really strange now
[23:07] <Sput> also, from what I've seen on early screenshots, it seems to be quite suitable for vertical alignment
[23:07] <DasKreech>  Apparent from the buttons on the taskbar which is obviously the Mac OSX influence it's very KDE4
[23:07] <Sput> which is great on today's widescreen displays
[23:08] <Sput> DasKreech: yes, but that won't stop all that FUD that we ripped of M$ :)
[23:09] <DasKreech> Sput: MS lives on mindshare
[23:09] <Sput> people claim that the current KDE4 taskbar looks exactly like vista's
[23:09] <DasKreech> as I said there is very little they have contributed to the desktop design so that's a moot point
[23:09] <Sput> I believe they invented the double click :)
[23:09] <Sput> killing novices since 1982!
[23:10] <DasKreech> Sput: you obviously missed the video where some guys installed KDE4 and told everyone it was Windows
[23:10] <Sput> DasKreech: no, I've seen it
[23:10] <Sput> it was hilarious
[23:10] <DasKreech> Walked around austraila and got reactions
[23:11] <DasKreech> seele: are you testing the notifications ?
[23:12] <DasKreech> Sput: But plasma does feel like it's heading in a good direction
[23:12] <ScottK> DasKreech: It was also either Kubuntu or Fedora they used becaue I saw the window flicker from the Compiz hack that we got from them.
[23:13] <Sput> DasKreech: yes it does, and I can't even imagine how KDE4 will look like in, say, a year
[23:13] <Sput> now that the foundation is in place
[23:13] <Sput> and people can start making their visions a reality
[23:14] <DasKreech> Well i don't know
[23:14] <DasKreech>  there are still plasma stuff to be written
[23:14] <DasKreech> But enough is there that you can feel it
[23:14] <DasKreech> maco: Saw the discussions about the one panel for Gnome 3 ?
[23:17] <DasKreech> Awww :-(
[23:17] <DasKreech> ScottK: I recall :)
[23:18] <DasKreech> Sput: I fully expect someone to write a task manager exactly like Windows 7 within a year
[23:18] <Sput> DasKreech: oh, make that a month
[23:18] <Sput> then they will start improving on that :)
[23:18] <ScottK> Sput: One thing I think Quassel is very smart about it startup notification spam.  You don't notify if the focus is on Quassel and so no startup spam.  Very nice.
[23:19] <Sput> ScottK: yes, I hated that when kopete had that forced on :)
[23:19] <Sput> ScottK: actually, the possibility to configure different notification events for kopete's chat window with and without focus is a result of a feature request of mine
[23:22] <DasKreech> Sput: Naw when 4.3 comes out then the Win-7 hype train starts
[23:22] <Sput> DasKreech: by the time win7 comes out, KDE4 will have passed it long ago
[23:22] <Sput> :)
[23:22] <DasKreech> Sput: you know that won't make a difference unless we match the advertising budget
[23:22] <Sput> DasKreech: you know we don't need to reach a marketing goal :)
[23:26] <DasKreech> I'm talking about hype
[23:26] <DasKreech> On a techinical level they are probably more stable we have a better design I'm pretty confident that we have a longer span on the same code base with more flexibilty
[23:27] <DasKreech> On a user level that's not happening
[23:39] <nhandler> Riddell: When you asked who wanted stickers, I thought you were talking about maybe one or two sheets...not a HUGE pile of them ;)
[23:41] <jussi01> nhandler: hehe, I thought the same... got mine today
[23:45]  * seele cries
[23:45] <seele> everyone has gotten their stickers but me!