[07:18] <pitti> Good morning
[07:51] <didrocks> morning pitti
[07:53] <pitti> bonjour didrocks
[08:59] <wgrant> What is this new notification applet, and why does it look so utterly non-native?
[10:16] <maxb> At least they reconsidered naming it "alsdorf"
[10:19] <maxb> But yeah, I hate it, and it's going to become my number one thing to customize on a new Ubuntu install
[10:19] <maxb> Which is slightly worrying since I've not found any way to do so without root access, for all users, yet.
[10:29] <didrocks> Hi seb128
[10:29] <seb128> hello didrocks
[10:30] <didrocks> seb128: I was just wondering if I only open a bug on LP "implement better notification" for pidgin and link it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD
[10:30] <seb128> didrocks: what do you mean?
[10:31] <didrocks> seb128: it seems that there is some work to do for pidgin and the new notification system https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Pidgin
[10:31] <seb128> didrocks: I don't understand the bug question, what change do you want to request?
[10:32] <didrocks> so, I just propose to handle it, and for that if I only open a bug on LP and assign it to myself to tell "I'm working on it"
[10:32] <seb128> didrocks: pidgin-libnotify in jaunty doesn't use actions and use the message indicator, it's installed by default and autoactivated
[10:32] <seb128> what other change is required?
[10:33] <didrocks> seb128: oh, ok, from the wiki text, I thought there was still actions on the message indicator and so, have to remove them
[10:33] <didrocks> ok, so, nothing to do with it
[10:33] <seb128> talk to ted when he's around
[10:33] <wgrant> maxb: What is it meant to do?
[10:33] <didrocks> seb128: oki
[10:33] <seb128> I'm not sure about it but from my point of view that's working correctly
[10:33] <james_w> wgrant: he's talking about the notifications, not the applet
[10:34] <james_w> wgrant: the applet will show recently received messages and the like.
[10:35] <wgrant> james_w: Ah, I see. But it is the ugliest thing on the desktop, and leaves this strange dark grey bar when it has nothing to show...
[10:35] <didrocks> seb128: I will check with him, thanks :)
[10:39] <asac> ArneGoetje: if you dont test my fontconfig packages, I will be forced to just upload it after next alpha :)
[11:43] <ArneGoetje> asac: sorry, I was busy.
[11:52] <asac> ArneGoetje: no problem. was ment to be a gentle reminder ;)
[11:52] <asac> there are still a few days left until freeze is lifted
[11:53] <asac> ArneGoetje: i expect some regressions with non-latin fonts and i already have some feedback that it gets worse for ttf fonts
[11:53] <asac> would be good if we could find which cases needs to be fixed
[11:53] <asac> without reintroducing the major rules.d hackfest we had before
[11:54] <ArneGoetje> asac: I got a bug about Chinese fonts in iceweasel on debian... if that is related?
[11:54] <asac> ArneGoetje: i am not sure. i know that i dropped most of our tweakage ... just preserving the fontconfigurator ones for now
[11:55] <ArneGoetje> asac: Look at this: http://www.cs.ccu.edu.tw/~cyt93/images/Iceweasel-3.0.6_broken.png
[11:55] <asac> ArneGoetje: hmm probably unrelated
[11:55] <asac> ArneGoetje: the main issue we had is that fontconfig doesnt honour gnome settings anymore
[11:55] <seb128> slomo: could you have a look to backport https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gst-plugins-base0.10/+bug/252237 for debian (would be better to sync that to upload that to ubuntu only)?
[11:56] <seb128> slomo: ie the change you did to fix alsamixer
[11:56] <asac> ArneGoetje: which happened because we just fixed various values
[11:56] <asac> all over the place
[11:56] <asac> so i dropped all that and want to readd the minimum really required
[11:56] <ArneGoetje> asac: AFAIK fontconfig never honored gnome settings. Gnome should honor fontconfig settings instead.
[11:56] <asac> also performance has somewhat boosted for me after dropping the ANY metrics patch
[11:57] <asac> ArneGoetje: well... whatever
[11:57] <asac> ArneGoetje: we even overwrote user settings
[11:57] <ArneGoetje> asac: ...
[11:57] <ArneGoetje> asac: you are giving me a headache...
[11:58] <ArneGoetje> I will test your package tonight.
[11:58] <asac> thanks
[11:59] <asac> ArneGoetje: not honour gnome settings == not honour user settings
[11:59] <seb128> asac: what setting are you speaking about?
[11:59] <asac> but lets look which rules we really need to add
[11:59] <asac> seb128: font ;)
[11:59] <ArneGoetje> asac: user settings belong into ~/.font.conf
[11:59] <seb128> asac: dpi, font name, points?
[12:00] <asac> ArneGoetje: right. still ;)
[12:00] <asac> seb128: look at /etc/fonts/fonts.d/
[12:00] <ArneGoetje> asac: problem with that is, you need to copy everything in /etc/fonts/conf.d/ into it and then change the bits you need to tweak. Otherwise it won't work :(
[12:00] <asac> everything that comes after 50 is overwriting user settings
[12:00] <seb128> asac: that's fontconfig yes
[12:00] <asac> at least if they dont have proper tests
[12:01] <asac> (which some of them dont)
[12:01] <asac> ArneGoetje: lets look at it. i thin my package is not really worse than before
[12:01] <asac> except for some ttf and non-latin fonts
[12:02] <asac> but those can be done properly imo
[12:02] <ArneGoetje> asac: should be everything < 50 which is overwritten...
[12:02] <asac> ArneGoetje: user settings can overwrite everything below 50 ... but not something that is greater 50
[12:02] <ArneGoetje> asac: s/overwritten/overwriting/
[12:03] <ArneGoetje> asac: other way round. The lower the number the higher the priority, IIRC
[12:03] <asac> ArneGoetje: i am really sure that the rules are applied in alphabetic order
[12:03] <asac> so if you set property1 to XXX in 20 ... you can still overwrite it in 40
[12:04] <asac> i can verify that in fontconfig code
[12:04] <asac> but not now
[12:04] <asac> ;)
[12:06] <asac> ArneGoetje: bug 305394 and the upstream mozilla bug 458612
[12:06] <asac>   "every file within that directory starting with an ASCII digit (U+0030 -
[12:06] <asac>    U+0039) and ending with the string ‘‘.conf’’ will be processed in
[12:06] <asac>    sorted order"
[12:09] <asac> seb128: oh i replied with @canonical.com to -desktop list
[12:09] <asac> seb128: can you moderate that in and whitelist that address
[12:09] <asac> Re: gnome-control-center
[12:10] <seb128> asac: let me look if I can find the moderation password somewhere ;-)
[12:10] <asac> hehe
[12:10] <asac> damn
[12:10] <asac> i should just remove the magic that picks @canonical.com if someone from canonical is in the addresses ;)
[12:13] <seb128> asac: ok got it
[12:13] <asac> seb128: thanks. and please whitelist asac@canonical.com for future (in case i forget again)
[12:14] <seb128> asac: done
[12:14]  * asac hugs seb128 the great
[12:14] <seb128> and checked the "whitelist this address" option too
[12:14]  * seb128 hugs asac
[12:15] <seb128> lunch time now
[12:31] <asac> when is meeting today?
[12:31] <asac> 1630 UTC. good
[12:38] <maxb> The new GDM theme is pretty!
[12:39] <maxb> However, the colour of the background (which is what's shown on secondary monitors) is still set to a traditional Ubuntu brown/orange/beigeish colour, which doesn't look so good
[12:41] <seb128> right, the colour will be changed
[12:41] <seb128> pitti: let me know if you do an upload to sponsor the gtkrc thing you can tweak the color in the same upload ;-)
[12:42] <pitti> seb128: the background one? sure, is that easy to find, or do you know where it's defined?
[12:42] <pitti> seb128: btw, I uploaded a gnome-settings-daemon yesterday, with Alberto's fix for randr configuration
[12:43] <pitti> seb128: I know you don't like such "quick" uploads, but that bug was driving me mad
[12:43] <seb128> pitti: there is a 35_gdm.conf.patch or something
[12:43] <pitti> ah, nice
[12:43] <pitti> right, I guess switching it to brown was a patch :)
[12:43] <seb128> pitti: we change the color there, just set #00000 instead that's what dxteam asked some days ago
[12:44] <seb128> pitti: for g-s-d no problem I would have commented if a new GNOME was scheduled this week but it makes sense to get that for the alpha CD ;-)
[12:44] <pitti> seb128: while I'm at it, I should also check if I can easily disable the input line popup
[12:46] <seb128> pitti: just comment the tooltip
[12:46] <pitti> yeah, should be simple
[12:46] <pitti> just listing the things to change
[12:47] <seb128> greeter/greeter_canvas_item.c:	    tooltips = gtk_tooltips_new ();
[12:47] <pitti> anything else?
[12:47] <seb128> greeter/greeter_canvas_item.c:	    gtk_tooltips_set_tip (tooltips, GTK_WIDGET (entry),
[12:47] <seb128> I guess that's only that
[12:47] <seb128> pitti: bug #264834 is sitting in the sponsor queue since before intrepid, not sure if we should just upload that
[12:53] <pitti> seb128: ah, that; I really don't like patches like those :/
[12:53] <seb128> yeah, me neither, there is a reason why it's sitting there for a while
[12:53] <seb128> just ignore that for now if you want
[12:54] <pitti> well, bigger problem is that I don't know what to do with that file, it's not a patch
[12:54] <pitti> I'll ask again and do the current upload
[13:28] <fta2> seb128, hi, i see gwibber is still in the NEW queue? is that expected?
[13:29] <seb128> fta2: hello, yes, I've way too much to do and pinging me on IRC every day is not making that goes smoother
[13:30] <seb128> will do in a bit I forgot yesterday afternoon too many other things and people pinging me all around the place during the day
[13:30] <kenvandine[work]> seb128: when you have a few minutes, i want to chat about evo
[13:30] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: don't ask to ask just ask -)
[13:30] <seb128> ;-)
[13:30] <kenvandine[work]> hehe
[13:30] <kenvandine[work]> got a few?
[13:30] <kenvandine[work]> i have a patch in my ppa, but i didn't do quite what we talked about
[13:30]  * didrocks is sure that seb128 has a shorcut for this sentence :)
[13:31] <kenvandine[work]> seb128: basically, i am just   changing the default settings in gconf, so it doesn't display the icon
[13:31] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: I've lot to do as just said but I can have a look, can you give me some details?
[13:31] <fta2> seb128, well, it was not my intention to ping you, i thought you did it yesterday when you asked me to resubmit but i still see it in the queue, maybe i misunderstood, sorry. i'll redirect all the requestees that keep asking me to a PPA.
[13:32] <seb128> fta2: sorry just got a bit too many people pinging me for a while and I've difficulties to get work done, nothing against you
[13:32] <kenvandine[work]> seb128: that plugin now sends the dbus events on new mail... which some people are starting to use in other apps
[13:32] <kenvandine[work]> so disabling it completely will probably not be popular
[13:32] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: hum
[13:33] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: and the new dx plugin doesn't do that?
[13:33] <fta2> seb128, np, i understand ;)
[13:33] <kenvandine[work]> i don't think so
[13:33] <kenvandine[work]> i think it just monitors
[13:33] <kenvandine[work]> not sure though
[13:33] <seb128> fta2: I meant to do it but got sidetracked in a zillion of other things
[13:33] <kenvandine[work]> this was a new feature in 2.25.x
[13:33] <kenvandine[work]> sends a dbus event for new mail... other apps can listen for it
[13:34] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: the only thing I don't like about the gconf change is that the vanilla session will not get the applet since that's user config
[13:34] <seb128> applet -> icon rather
[13:34] <seb128> but that's a detail
[13:34] <kenvandine[work]> yeah... i know
[13:34] <kenvandine[work]> but
[13:34] <seb128> pitti: ^ what do you think?
[13:34] <kenvandine[work]> the vanilla session isn't that vanilla yet :)
[13:34] <seb128> right
[13:34] <kenvandine[work]> i am sure lots of packages tweak gconf defaults
[13:35] <kenvandine[work]> so that is a harder problem to solve
[13:35] <seb128> right
[13:35] <seb128> I think that's ok
[13:35] <seb128> just checking what pitti thinks
[13:35] <kenvandine[work]> i think we need to have 2 sets of schemas installed... one default and one ubuntu... and root a different one depending on session
[13:35] <kenvandine[work]> just an idea
[13:35] <kenvandine[work]> pita to implement...
[13:38] <alex-weej> qt isn't using the system font hinting settings in 9.04
[13:38] <alex-weej> i've got unhinted set in both systemwide fontconfig settings and in gtk's xsettings
[13:40] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: we do have default and ubuntu, that's /var/lib/gconf/debian.defaults and defaults
[13:40] <seb128> alex-weej: no clue about what qt is doing
[13:40] <kenvandine[work]> ah
[13:41] <seb128> kenvandine[work]: the system path is not dynamic though, we could perhaps change that though
[13:44] <seb128> mvo: let's not troll? ;-)
[13:44] <seb128> mvo: should ping josselin about it rather
[13:45] <seb128> ups wrong chan
[13:57] <kenvandine[work]> morning rickspencer3
[13:57] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: good morning
[13:58] <kenvandine[work]> that reminds me i owe rickspencer3 an email...
[14:02] <pitti> hey rickspencer3
[14:02] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: good morning
[14:02] <kenvandine[work]> hey pitti
[14:02] <kenvandine[work]> good afternoon :)
[14:05] <seb128> hello rickspencer3
[14:05] <rickspencer3> hi seb128
[14:05] <seb128> rickspencer3, pitti: sorry for the duplicate activity email
[14:05] <seb128> I got some mailer issues
[14:06] <pitti> seb128: hehe, no problem
[14:06] <rickspencer3> seb128: I assumed that you had automated the generation of your activity reports, and had a bug in one of your loops ;)
[14:06] <asac> ah, finally a mailbomb bug ;)
[14:06] <seb128> ah ah
[14:06] <seb128> asac: not so many emails dont worry ;-)
[14:23]  * asac (late-)lunch
[15:26] <calc> pitti: filed another bug on apport-collect :)
[15:26] <pitti> calc: will I ever be able to close that one bug? :-)
[15:26] <calc> pitti: i think after it is fixed that it will be perfect.. for my use anyway
[15:26] <pitti> cool
[15:26] <calc> pitti: filed it as a new bug so i wouldn't keep beating the same old bug report ;-)
[15:27] <calc> i noticed the new issue after i had someone use it for a bug report
[15:32] <rickspencer3> asac: ping
[15:33] <asac> rickspencer3: just go ahead ;)
[15:33] <rickspencer3> funny how customs are different over the years and in different communities :)
[15:34] <asac> rickspencer3: since my client is always online you can just ask and i will reply when i see it (given time constraints)
[15:37] <asac> i think thats mostly true for the "always on" folks
[15:42] <seb128> hum
[16:05] <seb128> vuntz: hello
[16:06] <seb128> vuntz: how much feedback do you need on those gnome-session svn change?
[16:06] <seb128> vuntz: and how likely is a svn snapshot going to create issue on normal session if you don't try to store a session?
[16:06] <didrocks> seb128: oh, thanks for pidgin sponsoring btw (just noticed now)
[16:06] <seb128> didrocks: you're welcome thanks for the update
[16:14] <rickspencer3> desktop team meeting in 15 minutes
[16:17] <ArneGoetje> asac: I will continue to test your fontconfig package tomorrow... this takes some longer time...
[16:19] <asac> ArneGoetje: thats ok. i had a debugging session with some community guy in my mozillateam channel a few hours ago
[16:19] <asac> so i already know a few regressions due to too aggressive rule dropping
[16:20] <asac> i will try to address those issues and provide an updated font. anyway, i still need feedback on no-latin fonts
[16:21] <ArneGoetje> asac: that's what I also expected... but I will try to figure out what we can do to improve the situation... and I need to test on Kubuntu as well.
[16:23] <asac> ArneGoetje: right. kubuntu feedback much appreciated
[16:23] <asac> ArneGoetje: we can also have a call if that helps to get things started ... i think we will end up with a quick fix for jauty, but should review this whole complex for karmic imo
[16:24] <asac> maybe the quick fix will be as conservative as removing obsolete/cruft config rules that seem to have accumulated for various folks
[16:24] <ArneGoetje> asac: I do some testing first. that will take already some time as I need to test multiple language environments...
[16:25] <asac> ArneGoetje: right. thats much appreciated ... just wanted to kick this off
[16:25] <asac> also to get myself used to this whole thing a bit
[16:29] <rickspencer3> desktop team meeting in 1 minute
[16:29] <seb128> ok, enough nm testing for me for now
[16:29] <calc> here
[16:29] <seb128> asac: evo 2.25 doesn't react to nm changes correctly for me not sure if you were keeping track of how buggy applications are in this regard
[16:30] <asac> seb128: i am supposed to. i tried to test that a few times, but it wasnt obvious to me what means "correct"
[16:30] <asac> seb128: what issue do you see?
[16:30] <asac> seb128: hmm. lets discuss after the meeting or in -devel
[16:31] <asac> hi all!
[16:31] <asac> ;)
[16:31] <seb128> asac: it doesn't react to any change, ie doesn't get offline if I reselect the wireless connection while the applet spins
[16:31] <rickspencer3> no pitti?
[16:31] <seb128> or if I unselect enable wireless or enable network in the applet directly
[16:31] <Riddell> hi
[16:31] <bryce> morning
[16:31] <ArneGoetje> hi
[16:31] <seb128> asac: I'm discussing it upstream, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=572962 for the record
[16:32] <asac> seb128: maybe upstream patched out the behaviour because too many complained about being offline (i think finally some upstreams gave in)
[16:32] <kenvandine[work]> seb128: that works in 2.24.x
[16:32] <rickspencer3> let's start the team meeting
[16:32] <rickspencer3> hi pitti
[16:32] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-02-24
[16:32] <seb128> asac: right, they stopped using the lib and listen to dbus directly now
[16:32] <seb128> anyway meeting ;-)
[16:32] <rickspencer3> outstanding issues
[16:32] <rickspencer3> ACTION: bryce to re-sponsor xorg.conf editor in time for feature freeze.
[16:32] <rickspencer3> that's done, right?
[16:33] <rickspencer3> I think everything else has been done
[16:33] <rickspencer3> ACTION: Riddell to move individual work items that will not get done for Jaunty to new blueprints/specs for later releases.
[16:33] <rickspencer3> done, right?
[16:33] <bryce> rickspencer3: yep done
[16:33] <rickspencer3> btw: I want to call out ArneGoetje for his awesome fortitude
[16:34] <ArneGoetje> rickspencer3: ?
[16:34] <rickspencer3> we have a meeting in what was last night for me, and here he is again
[16:34] <pitti> extending those to mvo, who helped a lot with l-s
[16:34] <rickspencer3> yeah
[16:34] <rickspencer3> that's a long day for ArneGoetje :)
[16:34] <ArneGoetje> rickspencer3: normal working hours. ;)
[16:34] <rickspencer3> pitti: ack - thanks to mvo for helping us get the language selector spec done
[16:34] <Riddell> rickspencer3: mm no, but https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo is keeping track of the individual items, I'm not sure new specs are useful yet I'd rather just look at the Todo page at next UDS and write specs from there
[16:35]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[16:35] <rickspencer3> moving on
[16:35] <pitti> Riddell: WFM
[16:35] <rickspencer3> Release Bugs/Release Status
[16:35] <pitti> Riddell: we just need a clear status on the jaunty specs, to be able to chalk them off as implemented
[16:35] <rickspencer3> As of 23:30 UTC yesterday, we have no opened alpha-5 milestoned bugs
[16:35]  * mvo is happy and congrats Arne for finishing the spec
[16:36] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus isn't entirely up to date, though
[16:36]  * ArneGoetje hugs mvo
[16:36] <rickspencer3> so looks like we aren't blocking alpha at all
[16:36] <pitti> it's the status from last Friday
[16:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: ack
[16:36] <pitti> but since then, at least the two nss bugs were taken off the radar
[16:37] <rickspencer3> pitti: anything regarding release status that we should be aware of or helping with?
[16:37] <pitti> meh, disconnect again
[16:37] <asac> 17:37 < rickspencer3> pitti: anything regarding release status that we should be aware of or helping with?
[16:37] <pitti> the remaining issues on ReleaseStatus are pretty icky driver problems
[16:38] <pitti> asac: do you need help for bug 199140?
[16:38] <asac> no
[16:38] <pitti> cool
[16:38] <asac> thats rather simple ... even though a followup hack for a hack we have for a bad driver ;)
[16:38] <pitti> bug 331618 should land before UIF
[16:38] <pitti> that's my biggest thing on my radar so far
[16:38] <asac> blocked on paperwork
[16:39] <pitti> with C or Mozilla?
[16:39] <asac> once we have a go, we can make that happen at the same day
[16:39] <rickspencer3> pitti: we are in a wait and see state on that
[16:39] <asac> moz
[16:39] <pitti> okay, thanks
[16:39] <asac> pitti: discussion/decision pending
[16:39] <asac> they promissed to get back in 24h hours ... which was 23h ago ;)
[16:39] <rickspencer3> lol
[16:39] <asac> but well. lets hope we get something this week
[16:40] <rickspencer3> move on?
[16:40] <asac> from my side yes
[16:40] <rickspencer3> looking at work items, we are slightly above the trend line if I draw the line to beta freeze
[16:41] <pitti> rickspencer3: nice graph!
[16:41] <rickspencer3> this suggests that we may not get everything done in Jaunty in terms of work items
[16:41] <asac> hopefully you publish your scripts in a bzr branch ;)
[16:41] <calc> rickspencer3: split build is post beta freeze, well likely will be anyway
[16:41] <rickspencer3> asac: right
[16:41] <rickspencer3> in any case
[16:41] <kenvandine[work]> rickspencer3: at least the graph shows we are mostly tracking the line, we just need to get below it
[16:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: ack
[16:42]  * kenvandine[work] likes  burn down charts
[16:42] <rickspencer3> one way to get below it is to postpone things now that we know won't get done
[16:42] <pitti> rickspencer3: it doesn't include the blocked things?
[16:42] <rickspencer3> pitti: blocked, started, not started are all the same as far as a burndown chart is concerned
[16:43] <rickspencer3> postponed and done are also the same
[16:43] <pitti> rickspencer3: OTOH, I have such funny things as
[16:43] <pitti> pitti:Advice Dx Team Regarding playing sounds to provide volume control feedback:not started
[16:43] <rickspencer3> though I just realized I put the postponed bits in the wrong place, I'll update later
[16:43] <pitti> those account for some "noise" which doesn't affect the release cycle really
[16:43] <calc> should we change blocked items to postponed or should they be treated as the postponed/done bits?
[16:43] <rickspencer3> pitti: ack
[16:44] <calc> the items i marked as blocked are blocked for the forseeable future
[16:44] <rickspencer3> calc: if they are not going to get done this cycle, we should go ahead and communicate that now where possible. That way we can a) identify if we break anyone by not doing it when there is time to adjust, and b) we can stop tracking or generally worrying about the item
[16:45] <rickspencer3> on a side note, please follow the syntax as my script is ridiculously brittle :)
[16:45] <calc> rickspencer3: ok in the kde4/gio cases those are blocked on upstream issues
[16:45] <pitti> so maybe everyone of us should go through their blocked issues and try to resolve/postpone them this week
[16:45] <calc> rickspencer3: ah so note them to the left of the : (in the description)?
[16:46] <rickspencer3> calc: I'll add some comments to the next one that describes the syntax and allowable values
[16:46] <calc> ok
[16:46] <bryce> will do
[16:47] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[16:47] <rickspencer3> FFEs
[16:47] <kenvandine[work]> feature freeze exception?
[16:47] <rickspencer3> we already discussed bug 331618 make new tab behaviour consistent in Firefox
[16:47] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: yes
[16:47] <rickspencer3> the only other one I saw that might be relevant is bug 329161 Transmission 1.50 should be considered for inclusion in 9.04
[16:48] <rickspencer3> any other FFEs that we should be aware of?
[16:48] <bryce> rickspencer3: I'm expecting to have one for -ati 6.12.0, which will bring R6xx/7xx support
[16:48] <calc> for the firefox case would that be opening tabs causes the home page to load?
[16:49] <bryce> rickspencer3: oh and one for -fglrx
[16:49] <pitti> rickspencer3: transmission> already acked by me, sponsoring pending
[16:49] <calc> ah i see at the bottom of the bug page
[16:49] <rickspencer3> pitti: schweet
[16:49] <bryce> both are awaiting upstream releases to get out
[16:49] <rickspencer3> pitti: do we need to get bryce 's on the release team radar?
[16:50] <asac> bryce: can we pre-test them in some PPA?
[16:50] <rickspencer3> bryce: could you please add these to the team meeting wiki?
[16:50] <pitti> rickspencer3: I think that's bug 313027
[16:50] <bryce> asac, yes on -ati; for -fglrx it probably is irrelevant, since we'll get what we get and that's all we'll have (and we have nothing now)
[16:50] <asac> i think fglrx sounds essential
[16:50] <asac> so there is no way around. right
[16:52] <bryce> I can do a git snapshot of the 6xx/7xx branch for -ati
[16:52] <kenvandine[work]> bryce: is nvidia working with xorg 1.6 now?
[16:53] <rickspencer3> while bryce is working on that
[16:53] <rickspencer3> ..
[16:53] <rickspencer3> our next gate is UI Freeze on March 5th
[16:53] <rickspencer3> any concerns there (other then the firefox new tab change)?
[16:54] <bryce> kenvandine[work]: yep
[16:54] <kenvandine[work]> bryce: great
[16:55] <rickspencer3> looks like UI Freeze is not a concern, so moving on
[16:55] <rickspencer3> these next few items are more like announcements, I suppose
[16:56] <rickspencer3> Performance Reviews and Goals: everyone should revisit these to ensure that the work they have been doing is reasonable in line with their goals ...
[16:56] <pitti> rickspencer3: UIF> well, there will be some more patches to applications wrt. notifications
[16:56] <rickspencer3> typically, change the goals, not the work
[16:56] <rickspencer3> I understand the goal setting web site is a tad, shall we say "tempermental"
[16:56] <pitti> asac: is nm-applet already changed, notification-wise?
[16:57] <rickspencer3> so please eel free to use text files and email
[16:57] <asac> pitti: yes. all done in ubuntu. upstream will commit it after rc2
[16:57] <pitti> asac: rocking
[16:57]  * rickspencer3 hands mike to pitti for UIF discussion
[16:57] <pitti> rickspencer3: sorry; I'm done
[16:57] <asac> pitti: oh. text changes are still  missing
[16:57] <asac> pitti: wanted to apply them in a batch once we have all
[16:57] <asac> plan was to look later this week
[16:57] <pitti> rickspencer3: goal changes> hm, doesn't that somewhat defeat setting goals?
[16:58] <rickspencer3> pitti: some of them should still be relevant, some of them won't be, and you probably have added some goals
[16:58] <rickspencer3> that's all
[16:58] <vuntz> seb128: (sorry if this is a meeting) gnome-session trunk is basically 2.25.91 + the session saving patch. So it shouldn't cause any major issues for people not saving their session
[16:59] <rickspencer3> my intention is to make review time as easy as possible on us, as it will clash with UDS, etc...
[16:59] <asac> rickspencer3: thanks for taking a practical approach about goals ... which often change in our interrupt driven environment
[16:59] <seb128> vuntz: (that's a meeting indeed) want to get feedback on it?
[17:00] <vuntz> seb128: of course we want ;-)
[17:00] <pitti> rickspencer3, kenvandine[work]: did you hear anything pending from DX which we still need to integrate?
[17:00] <seb128> pitti: we still have quite oem patches pending review
[17:00] <kenvandine[work]> not directly... but there is that wiki page of notification related stuff that needs some work
[17:00] <pitti> I also think we still need a new desktop background, and a new gdm/usplash theme
[17:00] <seb128> I've uploaded the g-c-c ones some days ago
[17:00] <seb128> pitti: but those should not an UI change on normal desktop use
[17:00] <kenvandine[work]> pitti: i got a new gdm theme in todays update
[17:01] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up with design team regarding artwork and UIF dates
[17:01] <rickspencer3> I want to ensure they are well dialed in
[17:01] <pitti> ah, ubuntu-gdm-themes (0.31ubuntu5) apparenlty then
[17:01] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: could you please try to generate a list of all the UI changes driven from the dx work that will happen before UIF, and also a list of ones that may come later?
[17:02] <kenvandine[work]> yes... should i focus on the items in main?
[17:02] <kenvandine[work]> it is quite a mix now
[17:02] <rickspencer3> ACTION: kenvandine[work] to organize dx changes wrt UIF timing
[17:02] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: do it however makes sense, I just want us (the desktop team) to be hyper aware of what changes they are planning when
[17:02] <bryce> http://www.junauza.com/2008/11/ubuntu-904-jaunty-jackalope-mock-up.html ;-)
[17:03] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:03] <rickspencer3> All hands ... everyone on the desktop team should plan to do a presentation at all hands
[17:03] <rickspencer3> (at least one)
[17:04] <rickspencer3> thoughts?
[17:04] <davidbarth> rickspencer3: we're triaging all dx bugs, and setting as HIGH all that need to be fixed before UIF
[17:04]  * pitti submitted one proposal, but didn't hear back anything
[17:04]  * rickspencer3 checks off pitti on list
[17:04] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: usplash/other artwork> kwwii (Ken Wimer) is best contact for that
[17:04]  * davidbarth thinks that pitti's proposal is fine and quite balanced
[17:05] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to email reminder to team about all hands, along with links, etc...
[17:05] <davidbarth> pitti, kenvandine[work]: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=dxteam+notifications&field.tags_combinator=ANY
[17:05] <rickspencer3> next quick announcement ...
[17:05] <pitti> davidbarth: oh, I meant a proposal for a talk at allhands, not for u-m, but that's urgent to solve as well :)
[17:05] <rickspencer3> I'm experimenting with just splatting my weekly goals on my blog: http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/
[17:05] <bryce> rickspencer3: suggestions for topics would be welcomed; I'm afraid most stuff I would talk about would bore people's socks off
[17:06] <rickspencer3> feel free to comment, let me know what is missing, etc...
[17:06] <rickspencer3> bryce: I think a discussion about open source drivers catching up with and replacing proprietary drivers would be quite interesting
[17:06] <pitti> heh, was just typing something similar
[17:06]  * kenvandine[work] agrees
[17:06] <tedg> bryce, or architecture changes of kernel/driver relationships by DRI2.
[17:07] <rickspencer3> also, just the breakdown of the X infra-structure and landscape, along with the companies involved would be good
[17:07] <pitti> some performance comparisons, upstream plans, hw comapatibility, etc.
[17:07] <rickspencer3> bryce: you might use the opportunity to educate people about how much work and churn is involved, and make some progress wrt controlling expecations, etc...
[17:07] <bryce> mmm, wow thanks for writing my talk for me guys :-)
[17:07] <bryce> ok, all those should be easy to do
[17:07] <tedg> bryce, or I'd clap for 50 minutes of you could demo plugging in a few Wacom tablets and have them "just work" ;)
[17:08] <kenvandine[work]> hahaha
[17:08] <kenvandine[work]> me too
[17:08] <bryce> tedg: you can dream ;-)
[17:08] <rickspencer3> moving on
[17:08] <rickspencer3> 9.04 Feature List
[17:08] <rickspencer3> marketing is ready to put this blog together
[17:08] <rickspencer3> we should provide input regarding what are cool new features in Ubuntu
[17:09] <rickspencer3> note that they are keen to credit upstream features when appropriate
[17:09] <rickspencer3> I already added stracciatella-session
[17:09] <rickspencer3> other thoughts?
[17:09] <pitti> notify-osd and indicator, certainly?
[17:09] <kenvandine[work]> the obvious, notify-osd :)
[17:09] <seb128> new notifications? ;-)
[17:09] <rickspencer3> lol
[17:09] <pitti> I think we should mention the focus on bug fixing, too
[17:10] <pitti> OO.o 3 is also a major improvement
[17:10] <rickspencer3> pitti: two good ones
[17:10] <tedg> Can we put in the gnome-session might actually do sessions this release? ;)
[17:10] <kenvandine[work]> rickspencer3: gnome 2.26
[17:10] <rickspencer3> tedg: if they did, we could
[17:10] <kenvandine[work]> tedg: i won't believe it until i see it
[17:10] <seb128> there is a first patch in svn
[17:10] <kenvandine[work]> rickspencer3: in theory it will
[17:10] <pitti> we should transform https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+specs (the "release note" sections) to that, too
[17:10] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: anything in particular about 2.26 that you would call out?
[17:10] <seb128> I would not restart this discussion before getting that working though
[17:10] <bryce> ala bug fixing, the hotkey improvements are worth a mention
[17:10] <kenvandine[work]> rickspencer3: that is hard... release notes haven't been written yet :)
[17:11] <rickspencer3> bryce: good one
[17:11] <pitti> rickspencer3: oh, boot/session start speed improvements
[17:11] <rickspencer3> pitti: good one too
[17:11] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to ask foundations team for measure of improved boot time for feature list
[17:11] <kenvandine[work]> i think just GNOME 2.26, with a link to the gnome.org release notes
[17:11] <seb128> I don't think there is anything fancy in 2.26
[17:12] <seb128> extra stability ;-)
[17:12] <kenvandine[work]> mostly fixes...
[17:12] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: PackageKit in Kubuntu
[17:12] <kenvandine[work]> load times are a bit improvved
[17:12] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: these are end user oriented, so they should be benefit oriented, not technology oriented
[17:12] <seb128> the only new thing is the audio changes we rolled back in jaunty
[17:12] <rickspencer3> though the update to 2.26 is quite an achievement and important work
[17:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: PackageKit in Kubuntu
[17:12] <rickspencer3> pitti: good one
[17:12] <rickspencer3> probably a few Kubuntu improvements we should call out
[17:12] <pitti> oh, and
[17:12]  * pitti grabs asbestos pants ...
[17:12] <pitti> ... xorg-ctrl-alt-backspace
[17:13] <pitti> *duck*
[17:13] <kenvandine[work]> ewww :--D
[17:13] <rickspencer3> lol
[17:13] <bryce> heh
[17:13] <kenvandine[work]> bit glad we did it
[17:13] <tedg> I think that alexl is going to put in his "foreign .desktop file detection" stuff in Nautilus.  That might be a good thing to mention as it was on the Internet as a "virus vulnerability".  I'm not sure how many users saw that though.
[17:13] <bryce> well X stuff is probably too low level for marketing team
[17:13] <asac> how can i enable that again ? :-P
[17:13] <bryce> asac: dontzap
[17:13] <asac> bryce: any UI?
[17:13] <rickspencer3> kenvandine[work]: note that *we* didn't do it, it was an upstream change
[17:13] <pitti> asac: yes, gnome-terminal :)
[17:13] <bryce> asac: got nixed by TBTB
[17:14] <Riddell> asac: kcmshell4 display
[17:14] <bryce> asac: however there is xorg-options-editor which is a GUI you can install to do it
[17:14] <asac> Riddell: you knwo that i almost migrated to kubuntu if there wasnt this "white screen" issue
[17:14] <asac> ;)
[17:15] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:15] <seb128> asac: enable what?
[17:15] <rickspencer3> sponsoring
[17:15] <asac> seb128: dontzap
[17:15] <seb128> ah
[17:15] <asac> err zap?
[17:16] <rickspencer3> looks like we have seb128 pitti and asac doing some sponsoring, but I can't make much sense of dholbach's chart
[17:16] <rickspencer3> am I reading that right?
[17:16] <pitti> rickspencer3: do you want further input for the marketing team?
[17:16] <seb128> rickspencer3: what chart?
[17:16] <asac> rickspencer3: chart?
[17:16] <pitti> rickspencer3: chart?
[17:16] <asac> lol
[17:16] <rickspencer3> pitti: yeah
[17:17] <asac> i only see a table
[17:17] <asac> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/index.html
[17:17] <pitti> rickspencer3: (further input> per mail, perhaps)
[17:17] <rickspencer3> I meant table
[17:17] <rickspencer3> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[17:17] <asac> and that doesnt give much hints about who does the work
[17:17] <seb128> rickspencer3: that's a list and not a chart?
[17:17] <pitti> rickspencer3: the names there are "last commented"
[17:17] <asac> rickspencer3: look at my activity for details
[17:17] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to start a wiki page for brainstorming features for marketing
[17:17] <rickspencer3> seb128: yes
[17:18] <james_w> dholbach can tell you who was been commenting on sponsorship bugs or uploading sponsored things
[17:18] <james_w> dholbach KNOWS ALL
[17:18] <rickspencer3> ok, I think I'm supposed to encourage you guys to do ever more sponsoring, so I encourage more sponsoring
[17:18] <james_w> about sponsoring at least
[17:18]  * kenvandine[work] needs to get some things sponsored
[17:19] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up with dholbach wrt sponsoring and what the team should be doing
[17:19] <james_w> the desktop team are great at sponsoring as I understand it
[17:19] <james_w> almost as good as foundations :-p
[17:19] <pitti> so let's just get a tad better to surpass you :)
[17:19] <pitti> ugh, queue is quite long again
[17:19] <rickspencer3> heh
[17:20] <seb128> james_w: almost as good means much better in your locale I guess? ;-)
[17:20] <asac> btw, i planned to go through the SYNC bugs and remove sponsors if they dont address critical issues
[17:20] <james_w> seb128: heh :-). You're just jealous that you don't have t-shirts
[17:20] <seb128> asac: new versions you mean?
[17:20] <bryce> pitti: long?  Looks like about the same length it always is
[17:20] <asac> seb128: yes
[17:20] <seb128> james_w: how guys get t-shirt? how come!
[17:21] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:21] <rickspencer3> everyone provided their activity reports (except for Till who is on holiday)
[17:21] <rickspencer3> so thanks for that
[17:21] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[17:21] <tretle> macslow - what do u think of the new gdm in jaunty?
[17:21] <asac> rickspencer3: do you look at the agenda paragraph?
[17:22] <asac> now i noticed that you go through the individual sections you prepared and agenda is just a toc
[17:22] <rickspencer3> yes, but it's locked because *someone* is editing
[17:22] <asac> rickspencer3: look at the MozillaTeam page to get a proper toc
[17:22] <asac> that is auto created
[17:22] <asac> i added something to the agenda ;)
[17:22] <asac> before meeting: "enable metacity compositor by default? just on specific hardware? (asac) "
[17:22] <rickspencer3> enable metacity compositor by default? just on specific hardware? (asac)
[17:22] <asac> is that properly covered?
[17:23] <rickspencer3> not covered
[17:23] <MacSlow> tretle, it's on the right path
[17:23] <rickspencer3> go ahead
[17:23]  * rickspencer3 hands mike to asac
[17:23] <tretle> :S
[17:23] <asac> for me metacity notifications are really ugly without compositing
[17:23] <pitti> that's right
[17:23] <asac> i wonder if we can auto migrate users
[17:23] <pitti> but don't we need a fallback for X drivers which don't provide compositing?
[17:23] <asac> and whether that depends on some hardware capability we would need to probe
[17:23] <pitti> like nv, vesa, etc.?
[17:24] <calc> how do you turn on compositing in metacity?
[17:24] <asac> pitti: yes. thats what i wanted to discuss. how can we do that? i would have ended up with ugly notifications ... but it would have worked for me
[17:24] <kenvandine[work]> calc: gconf key
[17:24] <asac> calc: gconf
[17:24] <calc> ok
[17:24] <asac> calc: /apps/metacity/.../composition_manager or something
[17:24] <rickspencer3> may I recommend opening a bug on this, and asking kenvandine[work] to drive this on our behalf?
[17:24] <tretle> I like alot of the work being done on user experience by canonical atm but the new gdm reeks of windows vista/windows 7, and the 3d logo looks a bit dated and not very symmetrical down in the bottom right corner of the screen
[17:25] <asac> ok. kenvandine[work] can you open the bug or do you need me to do that?
[17:25] <kenvandine[work]> i can do it... an "investigation" bug?
[17:25] <asac> well. for me its a blocker
[17:25] <calc> cool the neat effects of compiz with metacity magnetic (shift) borders :)
[17:25] <rickspencer3> no, I think it's a bug bug
[17:25] <kenvandine[work]> and get the dx team to look into it?
[17:25] <asac> at least we should try our best to not make anyone seeing the ugly notifications ... unless its really the last resort
[17:25]  * kenvandine[work] thinks it might be hard to do the right thing
[17:25]  * tretle remembers posting a brainstorm idea months ago on enabling metacity compositing as default in alpha builds to see how it goes
[17:26] <asac> kenvandine[work]: we do something similar for compiz
[17:26] <kenvandine[work]> yeah... i don't know how  yet :)
[17:26] <asac> sure. maybe talk to mvo about ideas
[17:26] <seb128> talk to mvo
[17:26] <seb128> changing that is not trivial
[17:26] <kenvandine[work]> ok, i will create the bug and gather some ideas
[17:26] <rickspencer3> pitti: seb128: if you are agreeable, could one of you help kenvandine[work] with creating the bug?
[17:26] <seb128> building a database of graphic cards which it works correctly will take a while
[17:27] <kenvandine[work]> seb128: and doing the right thing when people change  drivers... etc
[17:27] <bryce> calc: afaik metacity compositing is limited in what effects it shows.
[17:27] <pitti> rickspencer3: I don't know much about the tech backgroud of compositing, but MacSlow and mvo_ can certainly provide more well-founded input there
[17:27] <seb128> rickspencer3: I think kenvandine[work] deals with bug filing in launchpad just fine now ;-)
[17:27] <calc> it seems that notifications don't fade out even with compositing enabled at least on intel
[17:27] <asac> seb128: maybe it just helps to see if xorg support composite. i mean i see "Composite" in Xorg.0.log for ages; still metacity didnt use it
[17:27] <rickspencer3> seb128: I thought that's what he was asking for ;)
[17:27] <calc> bryce: ok
[17:27] <MacSlow> rickspencer3, what's up with compositing-questions?
[17:27] <pitti> Personally I don't think that metacity+compositing is suitable for jaunty, FWIW
[17:27] <seb128> asac: you get some case where you get a white screen, or desktop too slugish to be used, etc though
[17:27] <tretle> it might be a good idea talking to njpatel about it, awn works great with metacity compositing and the awn dialog does a great job of looking pretty with it
[17:28] <bryce> asac, kenvandine[work]: at this point any drivers that do not support compositing at this stage are going to be pretty hard to get support on.
[17:28] <pitti> asac: if that's all it takes, that'd be great
[17:28] <rickspencer3> MacSlow: asac described ^^^^^^^
[17:28] <asac> seb128: if you just force compiz (i have that bug), but still metacity with composite works.
[17:28] <asac> for me
[17:28] <MacSlow> pitti, I've still not had the time to debug the metacity+compositor case ... notifications worked under that back in Berlin :/
[17:28] <seb128> asac: on your config, I did read bugs about similar issues though
[17:28] <kenvandine[work]> bryce: yeah... i just don't think metacity handles it well, if say you us intel, but for some reason fall back to vesa
[17:28] <seb128> asac: we are one for surprises on quite some hardware
[17:28] <pitti> MacSlow: right now we are still discussing whether/where to enable that in the first place
[17:28] <seb128> asac: and building a good database of "what works where" take a while
[17:29] <seb128> one -> on
[17:29] <tretle> seb128 I was using metacity compositing on my old ibm t30 which had a really really really bad graphics card and even that was able to manage it well
[17:29] <pitti> but given that we only use metacity (by default) where we know that compiz *doesn't* work, this seems like a moot point to me
[17:29] <asac> seb128: yes, but we should try and decide based on data imo. its just too ugly to keep it untried imo
[17:29] <kenvandine[work]> pitti: good point...
[17:29] <pitti> tretle: does that work (in principle) with compiz?
[17:29] <seb128> there is a difference
[17:29] <MacSlow> pitti, I mean ... we're committed to compiz after all for compositing
[17:29] <seb128> compiz needs 3d
[17:29] <rickspencer3> I gots to run to a call
[17:29] <rickspencer3> pitti will finish up the meeting
[17:29] <rickspencer3> thanks all
[17:29] <kenvandine[work]> thanks ri
[17:30] <kenvandine[work]> thanks rickspencer3
[17:30] <bryce> tretle: it's a function of the driver, not a function of the graphics card
[17:30] <calc> so this composite issue is to get notifications to fade out when hovered over, instead of just going away entirely?
[17:30] <MacSlow> seb128, well support is getting better and sofar lack of things like DRI2 hasn't stopped us going for compiz in the past, right :)
[17:30] <seb128> those compositor don't work the same way so they don't have the same class of bugs
[17:30] <calc> if so it seems that it currently doesn't work for metacity even with composite enabled
[17:30] <bryce> cya rickspencer3
[17:30] <tretle> no the ibm graphics card would not run with compiz, though I got it working in a hacky way a few years back but the performance was dismal compared to metacity compositing
[17:30] <pitti> ok, so that's techinical discussion we should separate from the meeting
[17:30] <dobey> i'm using metacity compositing on my desktop pc right now, because i can't seem to make it switch to compiz
[17:30] <seb128> MacSlow: right but it took us several cycle to enable compiz only on hardware where it works and we still need regular tweaking to the list
[17:31] <pitti> but I really would like to avoid tinkering with it in Jaunty at this stage
[17:31] <seb128> +1
[17:31] <kenvandine[work]> +1
[17:31] <pitti> I doubt that we'll get a lot more hw support anyway
[17:31] <kenvandine[work]> i'll file the bug though and we can take it from there
[17:31] <bryce> pitti: agreed
[17:31] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: thanks
[17:31] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: I rather think we should make non-composited bubbles "less ugly" then
[17:31] <pitti> we need that in either case
[17:31] <asac> well. least we could do is sent a call for feedback. as i said: if its not doable, so be it, but just doing nothing sounds wrong for this ugly thing
[17:31] <MacSlow> pitti, seb128, rickspencer3: of course I'll try my best to get notify-osd to work again under metacity+compositor ... but that I won't do _before_ UIF
[17:31] <pitti> asac: agreed
[17:32] <pitti> MacSlow: right; also, as I said, it still needs to look reasonable on non-compositing
[17:32] <seb128> asac: fallback to old notification in this case? ;-)
[17:32]  * seb128 runs
[17:32] <asac> seb128: haha
[17:32] <asac> someone attends dxteam meetings?
[17:32] <pitti> seb128: that's a valid option
[17:32] <asac> pitti: ?
[17:32] <seb128> rick does
[17:32] <tretle> This is the graphics card in the ibm I used metacity compositing with - ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 AGP  with 16MB of DDR SDRAM
[17:33] <tretle> yes 16MB :D lol
[17:33] <pitti> asac: rickspencer3, and in the future kenvandine[work], I expect
[17:33] <kenvandine[work]> i should be
[17:33] <pitti> ok, AOB for the meeting?
[17:33] <seb128> yes
[17:33] <pitti> seb128: shoot
[17:33] <asac> ACTION: whoever attends dxteam meeting to raise the metacity concern and discuss ways to move forward
[17:33] <seb128> pitti: oem team changes review
[17:33] <seb128> could somebody help me on those?
[17:33] <rickspencer3> asac: kenvandine[work] should handle that for you
[17:33] <pitti> asac: I like that better than to make metacity+compositing work with a crowbar :)
[17:33] <seb128> I'm not sure what to do with the evolution stack
[17:34] <seb128> they dropped a tarball in the bug with a stack of changes
[17:34] <pitti> seb128: the "small resolution" patches?
[17:34] <seb128> some changing glade files which is not optimal
[17:34] <seb128> pitti: yes
[17:34] <seb128> not sure what to do
[17:34] <MacSlow> pitti, well to be honest ... the design team mostly spent time on the composited case ... everything that's in non-composite is my own fallback-approach ... accepted by the design-team
[17:34] <pitti> seb128: my personal recommendation would be
[17:34] <seb128> but I don't want to go the "change a zillion glade files" way
[17:34] <pitti> - apply patches now
[17:34] <pitti> - ask them to submit upstream
[17:34] <asac> pitti: right. but one way forward seems to be to make a smart composition enablement ;) if there are other options: even better
[17:35] <pitti> - drop them as soon as they don't apply any more and ask them to re-do the patches
[17:35] <pitti> we shouldn't have the responsibility to defend them, they need to submit them upstream
[17:35] <pitti> asac: I thougt we already do (white/blacklist in compiz)
[17:36] <asac> pitti: its a different requirement: metacity compositor works on more than compiz (like for me)
[17:36] <pitti> asac: ok, let's discuss that in the bug
[17:36] <asac> pitti: i dont think they use 3d
[17:36] <asac> kenvandine[work]: can you subscribe me to the bug when you open it please?
[17:36] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: me too, please (and bryce, MacSlow, and mvo)
[17:37] <pitti> seb128: do you think that's a reasonable appraoch?
[17:37] <bryce> right will do
[17:37] <seb128> pitti: ok, I guess I can do that
[17:37] <asac> i think we should really be hard about patches that dont get properly pushed upstream
[17:37] <seb128> pitti: I still dislike having those wokarounds
[17:37] <seb128> workarounds
[17:37] <pitti> asac: yes
[17:37] <kenvandine[work]> asac: sure
[17:37] <asac> just dropping them when they dont apply will give us bad reputation
[17:37] <asac> even if its the oem team fault
[17:37] <pitti> seb128: oh, and a requiurement shoudl be that they don't break the appearance on "real" screens
[17:37] <bryce> asac: very true
[17:37] <asac> so i would say that adding volatile patches now is wrong approach
[17:37] <kenvandine[work]> asac, pitti, rickspencer3, bryce, MacSlow, and mvo?
[17:38] <asac> we should at least have a sign that the upstream process is properly started
[17:38] <asac> and on track
[17:38] <pitti> asac: well, they should apply to the current version, and if the OEM team files them, upstream will ask for updates, too
[17:38] <pitti> I'm sure that most upstreams are happy to fix their programs for small screens
[17:38] <seb128> pitti: right, I'm trying to make sure they do that which is not the case right now, they added some double frame because of their scrollviews
[17:38] <pitti> but I think many patches which introduce scrollbars aren't suitable for upstram inclusion
[17:38] <seb128> pitti: anyway thanks for your opinion ;-)
[17:38] <tretle> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/13191/
[17:38] <pitti> kenvandine[work]: sounds right, we can always subscribe more people
[17:39] <pitti> ok, I think we are done
[17:39]  * pitti -> confcall
[17:39] <asac> thanks
[17:39] <pitti> thanks everyone
[17:39] <seb128> pitti: thanks
[17:39] <bryce> thanks
[17:39] <kenvandine[work]> great... i am hungry :)
[17:40]  * kenvandine[work] -> lunch
[17:40] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[17:40] <seb128> pitti: be carreful you are turning into a manager ;-)
[17:40]  * ArneGoetje -> bed
[17:40] <pitti> seb128: update-manager flamewar, you should join that call, too :)
[17:40] <seb128> pitti: I don't think I would be really useful, I hate this change
[17:41] <pitti> seb128: I'm arguing for changing the change :)
[17:41] <seb128> good
[17:41] <kenvandine[work]> hehe
[17:41] <seb128> did you see my suggestion on the list?
[17:41] <seb128> ie display the icon
[17:41] <seb128> and auto-open only for users who don't use it
[17:41] <seb128> ie if users are pro-active and click on it don't do anything
[17:41] <asac> the update-manager should fly in with a great animation and then sink down to the taskbar ;)
[17:41] <seb128> if they didn't do upgrade for a week auto-open
[17:41] <pitti> seb128: yes, saw that
[17:42] <asac> pitti: also maybe just auto-open when user a) re-logs in ... or b) comes back from screensaver ;)
[17:43] <tretle> time for pancakes :D
[17:43] <asac> might be annoying if you want to get work instantly done, but at least you are not right in a battle when it pops up
[17:43] <calc> pitti: for the update-manager change, perhaps they should do something like xp during the installer have the user determine if they want to install security updates automatically, etc, which would reduce the need to show the screen at all?
[17:45] <dobey> calc: definitely, but i guess that option wouldn't show up when doing an upgrade to jaunty?
[17:47] <calc> dobey: no, but maybe somehow the user could be prompted on upgrade via update-manager? i dunno
[17:47] <calc> i'm not sure if that is actually doable though
[17:48] <dobey> could be. maybe via debconf?
[17:49] <calc> maybe, we generally disable debconf aiui but for something like this it might be the lesser of the evils :)
[17:56] <bryce> kenvandine[work]: so how's your first week been so far?
[18:12]  * bryce --> breakfast
[18:39] <kenvandine[work]> bryce: a bit hectic... still getting my debian/ubuntu legs
[18:44] <tretle> does packagekit not allow that functionality?
[18:47] <dobey> tretle: allow what?
[19:05]  * pochu waves
[19:07] <didrocks> hey pochu o/
[19:08] <pochu> hi didrocks :)
[19:52] <mvo_> didrocks: I take your libgtop merge
[19:54] <didrocks> mvo_: ok, tell me if anything's wrong :)
[19:55] <mvo_> didrocks: checking, but the update looks harmless
[19:56] <didrocks> mvo_: yeah, it was an easy one IIRC :)
[21:25] <didrocks> vuntz: here?
[21:26] <vuntz> didrocks: yep
[21:27] <didrocks> vuntz: lut ;) petite question, je mets à jour nautilus-sento vers 1.1.2, tu sais à quoi ça correspond le "Add an evolution plugin to allow sending arbitrary attachments through nautilus-sendto" ?
[21:27] <didrocks> je vois qu'évolution a un nouveau greffon, mais je ne vois pas trop son effet :/
[21:28] <vuntz> nope
[21:28] <didrocks> ok, j'arriverais à quoi sert cette saleté checkbox ;)
[21:28] <didrocks> vuntz: merci quand même ^^
 This is a bit perplexing. Many times today, I have: right clicked the update notifier, chosen "install all updates". Waited. Brought the "Untitled window" of synaptic to the front. At this point compiz crashes.
 metacity seems to autostart in its place
 any thoughts on things I could include to make a useful bugreport?
[22:32] <seb128> asac: evolution bug has a working patch upstream now so that's no issue, will be fixed in the next tarball
[22:33] <Laney> metacity's compositor makes gnome incredibly slow in Jaunty
[22:33] <Laney> this a known bug?
[22:34] <seb128> not sure, better to ask upstream, ubuntu uses compiz by default so this one didn't get a lot of testing
[22:35] <seb128> that's not the first time somebody mentions a such issue though
[22:35] <seb128> depends of the 2d drivers for you card
[22:35] <Laney> -ati
[22:36] <seb128> the speed can depend of the card generation you are using
[22:36] <seb128> that's #ubuntu-x territory again now
[22:37] <seb128> we are bouncing users between channels ;-)
[22:37] <seb128> could also be the compositor code not being optimized
[22:37] <seb128> there is not a lot of people who worked on it
[22:37] <seb128> and ubuntu focussed on compiz for compositing
[22:38] <seb128> so I'm not sure this code get lot of work and testing
[22:38] <seb128> you can probably look to upstream bugs about that though
[22:40] <GeorgeAScott> anybody have an aiptek tablet working on ibex?
[22:56] <jono> ohey all
[22:56] <jono> upgraded to Jaunty and the OpenOffice.org fonts look odd and blurry
[22:56] <jono> calc, any idea? ^
[23:12] <bryce> jono, check your dpi settings maybe?
[23:17] <seb128> bryce: already done; cf #distro discussion
[23:17] <seb128> bryce: and he's not on the channel right now
[23:19] <bryce> seb128: not my fault if people don't stick around to hear the answer to their question.  ;-)
[23:19] <seb128> :-)
[23:20] <bryce> seb128: so far I've been surprised we've not gotten nearly as many complaints about the dpi change as I expected
[23:20] <seb128> right, me too
[23:20] <seb128> users have been busy complaining about the update-manager auto opening :-)
[23:20] <bryce> most comments have been that it's not wrong exactly, just different from what they were used to (which of course it is different...)
[23:20] <bryce> hehe, or ctrl-alt-backspace
[23:21] <seb128> we should have a really annoying change by cycle and undo this one before beta
[23:21] <seb128> so users can complain about it for a while and are happy when it's changed back ;-)
[23:21] <jono> hey all
[23:21] <seb128> and so they don't complain about other changes ;-)
[23:21] <seb128> re jono
[23:22] <jono> sorry, I asked a question about OOo fonts in Jaunty, anyone know how to fix it?
[23:22] <jono> hey seb128
 jono, check your dpi settings maybe?
[23:22] <jono> hmmm, DPI is now 97
[23:22] <jono> font DPI that is
[23:23] <Laney> wait, dpi chnged?
[23:23] <Laney> Is that why text looks a bit different?
[23:23] <jono> Laney, for me it did, I had to set it back
[23:23] <Laney> what was it before?
[23:24] <jono> no idea
[23:24] <Laney> wwwwwwwweeeeeeeeellll
[23:25] <Laney> what the hell?
[23:25] <Laney> keys are reeeeepeatig
[23:25] <Laney> jono: Well what did you set it back to? (was what I was trying to say)
[23:25] <seb128> dpi used to be forced to 96 dpi until intrepid
[23:25] <seb128> in jaunty the xorg detected value is used
[23:25] <jono> what he said :)
[23:25] <Laney> gotcha
[23:26]  * Laney shakes fist at change
[23:26] <bryce> xdpyinfo | grep resolution  gives what X.org thinks your dpi should be
[23:26] <bryce> use System > Preferences > Appearance if you wish differently
[23:27] <Laney> hah, interesting gnome-terminal bug
[23:27] <Laney> I cannot start a text selection in the bottom 15 lines
[23:28] <Laney> OK, now I can...
[23:29] <Laney> nurse, it's time for my pills