[00:04] <JontheEchidna> wow, lzma compression is quite impressive
[00:05] <JontheEchidna> kdebase-workspace-bin is down from 4.4 MB to 2.5 MB
[00:05] <JontheEchidna> the -dbg is down from 50 MB to 30-something
[00:05] <JontheEchidna> from 57 to 31
[00:06] <JontheEchidna> I haven't gotten figures for -data yet
[00:07] <JontheEchidna> because i386 hasn't built yet I assume
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> and it won't build for at least an hour :/
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> https://edge.launchpad.net/~echidnaman/+archive/ppa
[00:12] <JontheEchidna> kdebase-runtime seems like a good candidate for lzma too
[00:29] <lex79> JontheEchidna: festival is installed by default in jaunty?
[00:30] <JontheEchidna> no
[01:03] <vorian> are we set with a standing ffe for core kde packages?
[01:03] <ScottK> vorian: You'd have to ask Riddell for Main.  For Universe whatever Riddell says goes too.
[01:04] <ScottK> I'm pretty sure that adds up to yes.
[01:04] <vorian> fantastic
[01:04] <vorian> :)
[02:20] <JontheEchidna> O.o
[02:21] <JontheEchidna> So we have bug 332627
[02:22] <JontheEchidna> but kjots already conflicts/replaces on any kmail version earlier than 4.1.80
[02:22] <JontheEchidna> Conflicts: kjots-kde4, kmail (<< 4:4.1.80)
[02:22] <JontheEchidna> Replaces: kjots-kde4, kmail (<< 4:4.1.80)
[02:23] <JontheEchidna> oh, because I fixed it yesterday
[02:23]  * JontheEchidna is tired
[02:23] <JontheEchidna> well, 2 days ago
[02:26]  * JontheEchidna prepares a backports upload
[02:33] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: I've uploaded a new kdepim to -backports
[02:34] <ScottK> Great.  I'll have a look in a few minutes.  Any change you'd do kdebase-runtime too.  I know we need that.
[02:35] <JontheEchidna> Sure. I'm feeling much more motivated than I was earlier this evening
[02:36] <JontheEchidna> hmm, is there a special dput argument I need to upload to -backports?
[02:40] <DaSkreech> What did I miss? :)
[02:50] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: No, just use intrepid-backports as the target in debian/changelog
[02:51] <JontheEchidna> Ah, that's what it was. Wrong target.
[02:51] <ScottK> No wonder I don't see it.
[03:00] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: reuploaded, and a kdebase-runtime fix is being committed to bzr
[03:01] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: it doesn't like me trying to upload to main
[03:04] <ScottK> Urgh.  OK.
[03:05] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Shove a debdiff somewhere and I'll sponsor it.
[03:05] <JontheEchidna> is batpaste good?
[03:05] <ScottK> If that gives me a pastebin I can click on, sure.
[03:05] <JontheEchidna> ok
[03:06] <JontheEchidna> http://paste.ubuntu.com/122655/
[03:06]  * ScottK grabs
[03:07] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Did you look and see if there were any other worthwhile improvements to backport into kdepim at the same time?
[03:08] <JontheEchidna> there haven't been any bzr commits since the ones that riddell backported
[03:09] <ScottK> OK. Thanks.
[03:09] <ScottK> Did you test build this in a PPA?
[03:09] <JontheEchidna> No.
[03:10] <JontheEchidna> Meh, the biggest package in kdebase-workspace barely decreased in size with lzma
[03:11] <JontheEchidna> (wallpapers don't compress well I guess)
[03:12] <ScottK> OK.
[03:14] <JontheEchidna> In kdebase-workspace's case I think we lose 5 MiB of size when using lzma
[03:15] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: What do you think about deleting all the packages from kubuntu-experimental that are in backports and setting kubuntu-experimental to build-dep on backports?
[03:16] <JontheEchidna> I think it would make it much easier to test koffice backports
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> plus it would help us not go over the limit so much
[03:17] <ScottK> Plus we aren't really consistently updating experimental, so people should go to backports.
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> Right.
[03:19] <ScottK> OK.  I'll work on that.
[03:22] <JontheEchidna> So why isn't lzma compression used by default? It seems to save space
[03:24] <JontheEchidna> the -dbg packages went down from 56 MB to 32 MB
[03:31] <ScottK> It also takes longer to compress/decompress so you slow down install and increase buildd usage.
[03:31] <ScottK> TANSTAAFL
[03:32] <JontheEchidna> Do you think it'd be worth it for 5 MB for kdebase-workspace?
[03:34] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: kdebase-workspace built in my PPA with the notification patch. want to try it
[03:34] <JontheEchidna> I'm in the midst of testing lzma-compressed kdebase-workspace
[03:35] <rgreening> hmm... why compress?
[03:35] <ScottK> 5MB would be a lot.
[03:35] <ScottK> rgreening: More space on the CD.
[03:35] <rgreening> ah. cool
[03:36] <rgreening> will that slow the live part?
[03:36] <rgreening> to boot/login time?
[03:37] <JontheEchidna> I'd have to downgrade to use your ppa packages :(
[03:37] <rgreening> lol
[03:38] <JontheEchidna> The testcase for the bug was: -Make an icon hidden in the systray. Close dialog. Repeat. get something to knotify you
[03:38] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: so the patch seems to be applied correct.
[03:38] <rgreening> ok. will try
[03:39] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: ok, msg me a couple of times.
[03:39] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: pang
[03:39] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: plong
[03:39] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: pling
[03:39] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: got a nice tower of knotify yet?
[03:39] <rgreening> ouch
[03:40] <rgreening> holy $hi+
[03:40] <rgreening> 3 for each ping
[03:40] <JontheEchidna> meh
[03:40] <rgreening> that makes no sense
[03:40] <JontheEchidna> they said it works in trunk
[03:41] <rgreening> ok, repeat the test JontheEchidna
[03:41] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: hai2u
[03:41] <JontheEchidna> ~order coke for rgreening
[03:41]  * kubotu slides a cold can of tasty Coca Cola(r) down the bar to rgreening.
[03:42] <rgreening> ok, if I disable the 2 options in notifications under system tray, I get one old stype notification at the top of the screen.
[03:42] <rgreening> s/stype/style
[03:42] <JontheEchidna> yeah, that bit always worked
[03:43] <rgreening> ok, try again...
[03:43] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: should be 4 now that you've changed the config... maybe 5 per
[03:43] <rgreening> only got one that time.
[03:43] <rgreening> 1 sec...
[03:44] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: again?
[03:44] <JontheEchidna> ~order vodka for rgreening
[03:44]  * kubotu slides vodka down the bar to rgreening
[03:44] <rgreening> ok, got 4 that time.
[03:44] <rgreening> so, it only happens it you add/remove to hidden icons
[03:45] <rgreening> try it now. I'll not mod anything
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> do you have a trunk install handy that you could test this with rgreening
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> maybe a neon install?
[03:45] <rgreening> unfortunately no.
[03:46] <JontheEchidna> removing the patch stops the dupes though, so at least I think we should disable it until we've fixed it
[03:46] <rgreening> I wonder why hiding icons triggers it
[03:47] <rgreening> i have an idea... try it once nore
[03:47] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: ZOMG LOLLERCOPTER\
[03:47] <rgreening> ok, I thought <I might see something in plasma output... nope.
[03:48] <JontheEchidna> I am guessing it's doing something like connecting some slots when it saves config
[03:48] <rgreening> oh. maybe
[03:48] <rgreening> I wonder whats different in trunk then
[03:49] <JontheEchidna> I had a similar problem where I had this timer that was being connected each time I pressed the stop/start button
[03:49] <JontheEchidna> so the timer would advance one more second per second with each stop/start
[03:49] <JontheEchidna> because I was making a new connection each time I pressed the button
[03:51] <JontheEchidna> that one commit really looked like it'd fix it :(
[03:51]  * JontheEchidna goes to bed
[03:51] <rgreening> lol
[04:18] <rgreening> ScottK, Riddell: i think the double notification is fixed here: http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=903183
[04:18] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: ^^
[04:18] <rgreening> Im gonna try a patch with that.
[04:26] <ScottK> OK, I think I finally got all the typos out of the kipi-plugins patch.
[04:31] <rgreening> lol
[04:31] <rgreening> I think I have the fix for notification dups
[04:32] <rgreening> it'll be in my ppa later...
[05:01] <rgreening> nm. it was already bp to 4.2. doh
[05:24] <ScottK> Would someone please double check I'm not seeing things?
[05:24] <ScottK> Is the current konq-plugins package in Jaunty a Debian Native package?
[05:34] <a|wen> ScottK: LP says 4:4.2.0a-0ubuntu1
[05:34] <ScottK> Yes, but note there's no diff.gz.
[05:36] <a|wen> uh oh, looks like a mistake to me
[05:36] <a|wen> probably the .orig.tar.* didn't get renamed to 4.2.0a
[05:44] <ScottK> Yep.
[05:45] <ScottK> We'll need to fix that after the Alpha 5 is out.
[06:17] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Uploaded.
[06:17] <ScottK> Riddell: I just sponsored a kdepim fix for JontheEchidna.  It's simple enough, but figure since I uploaded it, I shouldn't accept it.
[11:15] <ScottK> Riddell: Did you get kdesudo sorted (slangasek's comment on -release)?
[11:16] <Riddell> ScottK: tonio seemed to do an upload reverting his last change
[11:16] <ScottK> OK.  As long as it's handled...
[11:45] <ScottK> Riddell: Would you please accept the kdepim in intrepid-backports.
[11:49] <ScottK> Also FTBFS on konq-plugins and kipi-plugins are all fixed.
[11:54] <Riddell> accepted
[11:58] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.
[12:13] <Lure> do we have kde 4.2 in backports?
[12:13] <ScottK> We do.
[12:14] <Lure> ScottK: so kubuntu-experimental is not suggested anymore?
[12:14] <ScottK> Lure: Correct.
[12:15] <Lure> ScottK: should we bacport digikam/kipi-plugins too (rc2), or we better change digikam-experimental to be built with backports?
[12:16] <ScottK> I'd wait until they are released to backport them.
[12:16] <Lure> ScottK: bug 332937
[12:16] <ScottK> I'd change digikam experimental to use backports.
[12:17] <ScottK> I didn't consider the impact on you guys when I cleaned up the PPA last night.  Sorry.
[12:17] <Lure> ScottK: the only problem is that we have existing kubuntu-experimental users that are not aware of backports
[12:17] <ScottK> I'll add a not.
[12:17] <ScottK> not/note
[12:18] <Lure> ScottK: no problem, that is why it is called experiemntal ;-)
[12:18] <Lure> ScottK: will there be announcement that people should switch to backports (and drop kubuntu-experimental)?
[12:19] <ScottK> I just made a note on the PPA page.
[12:20] <ScottK> ryanakca: We should probably have a news item on this ^^^
[12:20]  * Lure is considering opening new digikam-backport ppa
[12:21] <ScottK> BTW, did you see I fixed the kipi-plugins FTBFS in Jaunty last night?
[12:22] <Riddell> ooh, I got amarok compiling!
[12:23] <Lure> ScottK: yes - thanks for that
[12:24] <ScottK> Riddell: That's great.
[12:24] <Lure> more than I think about, less I understand why KDE 4.2 in backports should break KDE3 digikam... :-(
[12:25] <Lure> getting KDE4 digikam is a workaround, but some users might not like to upgrade yet (at least before final release)...
[12:37] <ScottK> Riddell: kdebase-runtime in Jaunty has a versioned build-dep on libsoprano-dev (>= 2.1.67).  The intrepid-backports -runtime build-dep isn't versioned and we only have 2.1.64 in backports.  Do we need to backport a newer one or just ignore it?
[12:37] <Riddell> I think it can be ignored
[12:38] <ScottK> OK.  I'm updating -runtime with some improved conflicts/replaces.  I'll ignore it.
[12:38] <ScottK> Thanks.
[13:56] <ScottK> Riddell: Would you please accept the kdebase-runtime in intrepid-backports.
[14:18] <Quintasan> \o
[14:22] <ScottK> o/
[14:31] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.
[14:32] <Riddell> sorry for the delay, mdebdiff was doing funny things
[14:32] <ScottK> That takes care of any known package conflicts issues with the intrepid backport.  We still need to backport the universe plasmoids.
[14:33] <ScottK> No problem.  It's probably just as well not to have two huge KDE packages building for backports at the same time while where in the Alpha freeze anyway.
[14:34] <Riddell> new alpha candidate live CDs up for testing
[14:40] <davmor2> jjesse: in your blog post yesterday did you know your bug is incorrect :)
[14:40] <jjesse> no it isn't did i link to the worng bug?
[14:41] <davmor2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/33103
[14:41] <jjesse> yes yes i did
[14:41] <jjesse> i'm retratred
[14:41] <jjesse> retarted
[14:41] <jjesse> missed a 3
[14:41] <jjesse> 333103
[14:41] <jjesse> bug 333103
[14:42] <jjesse> thanks davmor2
[14:52] <rickspencer3> julian_: hi
[14:53] <jjesse> morning rickspencer3
[14:53] <rickspencer3> jjesse: good morning
[14:53] <ScottK> o/
[14:53] <rickspencer3> Hi ScottK
[14:53] <julian_> rickspencer3: Hey rick
[14:54] <rickspencer3> hey everyone, julian_ is the head of design for Canonical
[14:54] <jjesse> hello julian_
[14:54] <ScottK> Welcome julian_.
[14:54] <seele> can someone log this? i have to run off for a class in 5 minutes
[14:54] <jjesse> he's the one that did the presentation at UDS Mountain View
[14:54] <rickspencer3> JontheEchidna: Tonio_: seele: rgreening: nixternal: etc: ^^^^
[14:55] <rickspencer3> jjesse: yes
[14:55] <julian_> hi everyone - it's great to meet you
[14:55] <rickspencer3> julian_: is a general cool guy and I thought since this is such a design centric group, you all should hang out
[14:55] <rickspencer3> probably have a lot in common
[14:55] <rgreening> :)
[14:55] <Riddell> hi julian_
[14:55] <rgreening> o/ julian_
[14:56] <julian_> thanks for the introduction rick
[14:56] <rickspencer3> let's see ...
[14:56] <rickspencer3> mpt is on julian_'s team, and so is ken, and beuno
[14:57] <rickspencer3> plus I think think there is a user researcher comming on board?
[14:57] <julian_> i really want to get to know you guys so we can move these fantastic products onwards and upwards
[14:57] <julian_> yes - she joins us in 2 weeks
[14:58] <rickspencer3> so thoughts about how to make Kubuntu + Canoncial Design Team = Awesome ?
[14:58] <julian_> as i said in my presentation at UDS, this is very much a collaborative effort
[14:58] <rickspencer3> ScottK: thoughts?
[14:59] <Riddell> julian_: how does your process work in respect to looking at what's already out there?  what part of the process do you look at what's already in the desktops and how that fits around what you're planning?
[14:59] <julian_> well, we've taken the first step right here :-)
[14:59] <ScottK> Unfortunately none of the notifications presentations at UDS were remotely accessible.
[14:59] <jjesse> also is there a mailing list or irc channel for those interested to join and have ongoing disucssion?
[14:59] <ScottK> So far I don't get the impression of any collaboration.
[15:00] <rickspencer3> ScottK: abstract from the notifications and looking forward at 9.10: what's the vision for a great collaboration?
[15:00] <ScottK> Just here's what we're doing ....
[15:00] <rickspencer3> ScottL: again, looking forward :)
[15:00]  * rickspencer3 switches L and K keys on keyboard
[15:00] <ScottK> In my experience most engineering problems are at least 80% social.
[15:01] <julian_> Riddell: we're beginning to put competitive reviews in place. once our user experience/researcher begins, she'll feed this into the early designprocesses
[15:01] <jjesse> the user expereience/researcher should spend a lot of time with seaLne
[15:01] <jjesse> doh
[15:01] <jjesse> sorry meant seele
[15:01] <ScottK> So I think it's important to recognize that (at least from my perspective) there has not been a lot of community input so far.
[15:01]  * jjesse grumbles at tab completition
[15:02]  * seaLne grumbles at nick highlighting :)
[15:02] <jjesse> sorry seaLne
[15:02] <seaLne> just joking
[15:02] <rickspencer3> jjesse: I think that seelse and mpt are working together on the uber spec for getting a users attention
[15:03] <julian_> jjesse: agreed. they have similar interests and ambitions - to work together to move us all on in a co-ordinated way
[15:03] <ScottK> A related point is that Kubuntu is a small, primarily community team.  We don't have a lot of resources available to maintain differences from upstream.
[15:03] <julian_> i worked with her extensively in my previous role so know her abilities really well
[15:03] <Riddell> julian_: don't you find that means there's issues you havn't considered until you come closer to the implementation stage?  (one I'm thinking of is file transfers which I don't think there's any plans for)
[15:05] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Were you able to get an answer to the question I asked yesterday about Canonical's intended implementation strategy for KNotification?
[15:05] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I have a meeting to talk about it today, but I think I know the answer
[15:06]  * ScottK listens
[15:06] <rickspencer3> davidbarth: you might want to tune in in case I get this wrong
[15:06] <rickspencer3> my understanding is this (and julian_ please correct me)
[15:06] <julian_> Riddell: not necessarily- it's all down to timing. done at the correct time and in the correct way, features can be included that meet our and users needs
[15:09] <rickspencer3> the question is: is Canonical planning to replace KNotification, or work with KDE upstream to improve KNotification?
[15:09] <rickspencer3> here's my understanding, the answer is "yes"
[15:09] <ScottK> OK.
[15:09] <julian_> ScottK: i recognise the scale of the community and the issues this brings. resource is a scarce commodity. i'll be lloking to develop great and honest relationships with you guys to feed requirements in to us
[15:10] <rickspencer3> I think that the focus of many people right now is on the little bubbles, but the focus of the design team is on how desktops alert users in general
[15:10] <julian_> we're here to work with you - i firmly believe that. i've been astonished by the volumeof willingness and talent since i joined this project. i love that
[15:10] <rickspencer3> so there is a four part structure outlined in some detail about the four ways to notify users
[15:11] <ScottK> Yes, not all of which is really suited to the KDE4 desktop.
[15:11] <rickspencer3> that four part structure should apply to all desktops, and Canonical intends to be bold and experimental in bringing this forward
[15:11] <ScottK> Particularly not as it may exist in the KDE4.3 and later timeframe.
[15:11] <rickspencer3> ScottK: yes, I am aware of your opinion there, but I respectfully disagree
[15:12] <rickspencer3> I think the framework is desktop agnostic
[15:12] <ScottK> This is a different point than I've made before.
[15:12] <ScottK> The one I've focused on before is that I think removing functionality (actions on notifications) is a really bad idea.
[15:12]  * Riddell thinks that's a non-issue
[15:13] <rickspencer3> So in terms of canonical experimenting and bing bold, I think people who want to contribute to moving Linux desktops forward should contribute to the spec, design, and participate in the experiment
[15:13] <ScottK> The point I'm trying to make now is that the KDE view of the desktop is about to start changing significantly.
[15:13] <ScottK> rickspencer3: If there were an experiment, I would agree.  Experiments aren't part of default installations.
[15:14] <ScottK> Once you make it the default, that's not an experiment, it's a production decision.
[15:14] <rickspencer3> so I would ask, ScottK, given that the KDE desktop is about to change, how do we collaborate and make the whole more than the sum of it's parts?
[15:14] <ScottK> Last time we were here having a group discussion I was told that Canonical had figured out how to make notifications better for KDE.
[15:15] <ScottK> When I asked the individual in question if they'd tried notifications in KDE 4.2, they had not.
[15:15] <rickspencer3> ScottK: hold on, I'd like to see if anyone else has any thoughts regarding team work
[15:15] <rickspencer3> JontheEchidna: nixternal ?
[15:16] <Riddell> not sure they're here just now, jjesse and rgreening were lurking
[15:16] <jjesse> still lurking
[15:16] <rickspencer3> hehe
[15:16] <rgreening> here
[15:17] <jjesse> its what i do best
[15:17] <rgreening> on a conf call $work :)
[15:17] <rickspencer3> ok
[15:17] <rickspencer3> let's consider it an ongoing conversation for now
[15:17] <jjesse> i've been playing with the latest in Jaunty and I guess I am really enjoying how the notifications work in regards to downloading files, updates are ready, power state changes, etc
[15:17] <jjesse> and it is a great improvement since early KDE4
[15:17] <rickspencer3> julian_: still there, or did ScottK and rickspencer3 bore you to death?
[15:18] <rickspencer3> jjesse: do you me Ubuntu Jaunty or Kubuntu Jaunty?
[15:18] <jjesse> kubuntu jaunty
[15:18] <rickspencer3> mmmm
[15:18] <rgreening> KDE notifications are coming along rather nice.
[15:18] <Riddell> KDE 4.2 notifications are a great improvement over what went before but it's far from a done job, there's still a lot that could be improved
[15:18] <jjesse> its purty
[15:18] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I agree that there is a lot that can be done to improve things and that working in a collaborative manner to accomplish them is good.
[15:18] <julian_> still here
[15:18] <rgreening> The notification system in KDE is quite extensive.
[15:18] <jjesse> rgreening: and has improved a lot
[15:18] <Riddell> rgreening: it's not, that's why apps like amarok don't use it
[15:19] <rgreening> I'm sure it could use enhancements, but those should be developed in consult with upstream.
[15:19] <jjesse> previous notifications took too much screen real estate on my Dell Mini 9, jaunty looks so much better
[15:19] <rickspencer3> jjesse: when you say "notifications" are you just referring to little bubbles, or is there a whole system?
[15:19]  * jjesse notes he is only running the live cd though
[15:19] <a|wen> rickspencer3: there is a whole system; and it is really starting to come along great in kde 4.2
[15:19] <jjesse> ummm
[15:20] <rgreening> I think working directly with this team and upstream KDE is going to be critical.
[15:20] <jjesse> well when i am notified there is a new message in kmail, or my powerstate changes or when i have new updates
[15:20] <jjesse> are those "bubbles" or something more invovled?
[15:20] <rgreening> Im sure asiego (KDE) has a list of todo's for notification. if we can implement those in a sane way, that would be a plus for Kubuntu with KDE
[15:21] <rickspencer3> julian_: do you have a link that describes the four ways of getting a users attention handy? The one that mpt and seele are working on?
[15:21] <julian_> ScottK: can i just re-wind 5 mins - i got caught on a call. did you mention that you disagreed with non actionable notification bubbles?
[15:21] <mpt> rickspencer3, seele and I have not been working on anything (I invited her to do so, but she's been busy).
[15:22] <rickspencer3> julian_: ScottK: please don't go there now!
[15:22] <rickspencer3> that is well tread ground :)
[15:22] <jjesse> seele is teaching a lot of classes and taking classes
[15:22] <rickspencer3> aah
[15:22] <ScottK> julian_: Absolutely and we can leave it at that.
[15:22] <rickspencer3> I see sorry seele for being presumptuous :)
[15:22] <mpt> rickspencer3, you may be thinking of the notification design guidelines I wrote. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines>
[15:22] <rickspencer3> That's the one
[15:23] <rickspencer3> I'm sure everyone here know's mpt, right?
[15:23]  * mpt waves
[15:24] <rgreening> Riddell: do you know of a todo list or have a list of limitations that we can look at in KDE for notifications?
[15:24] <rgreening> If we attempt to work the todo's in coop with the Dx team and KDE upstream, this would be a great benefit
[15:25] <rickspencer3> jjesse: rgreening: aside from notifications, the design and dx team are going to be working on a lot of other cool stuff, and I think we want to ensure that Kubuntu benefits from this
[15:25] <Riddell> rgreening: I don't know of a list, I guess I could come up with stuff I'd like to see done
[15:26] <rickspencer3> so given "foo" new thing that they are working on, how do kubuntu developers engage with them to make foo work great on Kubuntu?
[15:26] <rgreening> Riddell: I think this would be beneficial. we could approach KDE about it and offer to assist, working then internally with Dx and Kubuntu team
[15:26] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I do think that document captures what I view as the fundamental logical flaw in the design.  It incorrectly equates not requiring and action with not allowing one.
[15:27] <rickspencer3> ScottK: you're talking to the wrong person :) that's mpt and julian_
[15:27] <rickspencer3> perhaps we should arrange a separate meeting to discuss that?
[15:28] <jjesse> just so i understand under the new system, if i get an irc message, i will get notified that i have new message but not be able to click on it to open up my irc client?
[15:28] <ScottK> jjesse: Yes.
[15:28] <Riddell> no, that's covered by the message indicator
[15:28] <jjesse> i don't like that all
[15:28] <rgreening> rickspencer3: I'd suggest that if the Dx team has an idea, we meet, discuss the idea and see how it fits. If it fits, or can be modified to fit with our ethos, then we put together an action plan to dev/implement/test/deploy
[15:28] <ScottK> You'll have something else you can click on instead.
[15:29] <ScottK> Riddell: That's exactly the problem.  Instead of clicking on the thing that notified you, you have to go somewhere else.
[15:29] <jjesse> why wouldn't i click on the irc notification?
[15:29] <rickspencer3> I was hoping to not debate the merits of the design today, as it's kind of a moot point for 9.04 and Kubuntu anyway
[15:29] <jjesse> sorry i'm a little slow
[15:29] <rgreening> hmm.. get a bubble npotifying me of a message and havoing to look elsewhere for the app/message/whatever seems counter intuitive to me
[15:30]  * jjesse apologizes for opening up that can of worms
[15:30] <rickspencer3> lol
[15:30] <a|wen> jjesse: that's what some of us are asking us self as well :)
[15:30] <rgreening> :) (ill hide)
[15:30] <Riddell> as rickspencer3 says, this is not really what we're looking at now, although a meeting to discuss the design proposal with Kubuntu, the UX and DX people would be useful
[15:31] <rgreening> +1 Riddell
[15:31] <rickspencer3> I think that is sounds like:
[15:31] <a|wen> Riddell: s/useful/needed/ +1
[15:31] <jjesse> will there be a way to go back to default kde4 notification system?
[15:31] <rickspencer3> 1) design team should work with Kubuntu (the product) and understand it and it's design ethos
[15:31] <ScottK> Riddell: While I agree we aren't going to solve it today, I think it's important to highlight that this isn't just we don't understand the design.  I think we undertand it very well and we don't like it.
[15:31] <sabdfl> hello all
[15:31] <rickspencer3> 2) design team should engage early and often regarding their design concepts
[15:31] <ScottK> Hello.
[15:31] <julian_> that's what we're here for
[15:32] <rickspencer3> hi self appointed benevolant dictator for life :)
[15:32] <rgreening> cool julian_
[15:32] <a|wen> hi sabdfl
[15:32] <rickspencer3> 3) some kind of list or other space for easy design discussion
[15:33] <rickspencer3> 4) at some point in the future, a deep dive with kubuntu-devel on the four parts of the notification system
[15:33] <ScottK> rickspencer3: This has to happen before the design is crystalized.
[15:33] <julian_> i repeat my earlier statement - design is a collaborative activity. the best way of getting the best for our users is to have these kind of discussions
[15:33]  * jussi01 waves to the sabdfl
[15:33] <ScottK> julian_: I agree.  It's unfortunate that wasn't done so far.
[15:33] <rickspencer3> I agree with julian_ design can be messy and weirdly iterative
[15:33] <jjesse> +1 ScottK
[15:34] <julian_> ScottK: noted
[15:34] <julian_> that's why its great to start our working relationship right now
[15:35]  * rickspencer3 knows I will sound defensive
[15:35] <jjesse> hrmm son waking up from nap, me goes back to lurking
[15:35] <sabdfl> Riddell: from scrollback, you were asking about how we review what's out there? mainly by having folks on the team with background in gnome, kde, apple, microsoft, and partly through participating in existing processes like FD.o, gnome ui hackfests, and soon hopefully kde equivs
[15:36] <Riddell> sabdfl: mm, maybe when our qt/kde guys are on board they could go to the plasma sprints
[15:39] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I'm willing to accept that's what's been done so far was done with good intent, but that it wasn't well coordinated due to time pressures.
[15:40] <rickspencer3> ScottK: As the case may be, we are in a very different position going into 9.10. The Dx and Design teams at Canonical are no longer in "boot strap" mode, the Engineering Manager for the Desktop Team is no longer in "boot strap" mode ;), ...
[15:41] <sabdfl> jjesse: your questions about the IM are very relevant
[15:41] <rickspencer3> The Dx team is bringing on skilled KDE developer(s?)
[15:41] <sabdfl> they clearly show the importance of persistent vs ephemeral notifications
[15:41] <sabdfl> the key question is whether you should have to *race* to respond, or be able to respond at leisure
[15:42] <sabdfl> and whether you need to know about those messages even if you were away from your desktop
[15:42] <sabdfl> since we think you do, there needs to be a persistent indicator
[15:42] <ScottK> I'd say the key question is if you happen to get there in time why not let something happen?
[15:42] <sabdfl> that's the messaging indicator
[15:42] <sabdfl> and there will be more categories like that over time
[15:42] <sabdfl> where we identify a category like that, we make it general, so multiple apps can use it rather than each having their own one
[15:43] <sabdfl> so *one* messaging indicator / icon for thunderbird, evolution and kmail, gwibber and whatever other social networking messaging app you can think of
[15:43] <sabdfl> cleaner, leaner
[15:43] <sabdfl> i hope that explains it better
[15:44] <rickspencer3> hey guys, I have to tune out for a while ... I have some calls to make, etc...
[15:44] <sabdfl> Riddell: yes, bo and aurelien would both be welcome to go to the kde sprints
[15:44] <sabdfl> and we could potentially host them in london too
[15:44] <julian_> rickspencer3, thanks for the introductions
[15:44] <rickspencer3> please feel free to ping me
[15:44] <sabdfl> we'll be inviting key upstreams to come and work directly with the teams
[15:45] <sabdfl> so that we can bring the best ideas together
[15:45] <ScottK> sabdfl: Speaking for myself, I don't feel my problem is not understanding the design.
[15:45] <sabdfl> ScottK: i hope you'll agree that it would be useful to have GNOME and XFCE apps able to take advantage of KDE@s notifications
[15:45] <sabdfl> the only way to achieve that is to achieve a common understanding and common standards, protocols
[15:45] <sabdfl> that's why we've focused on FD.o
[15:45] <ScottK> Yes.  I agree with that idea.
[15:46] <ScottK> From 10,000 meters I think this is all good.
[15:46] <sabdfl> as excited as I am about KDE's notifications work, there's been an element of disregard for the need for outreach and standards
[15:46] <sabdfl> so, i'd very much like to engage with the KDE notifications team to improve that
[15:46] <sabdfl> both ways
[15:46] <ScottK> Unfortunately on the ground the road has some potholes.
[15:46] <sabdfl> in Ubuntu, we have the gnome-stracciatella-session or something like that package
[15:47] <sabdfl> which enables a gnome session that uses the older notification-daemon instead of notify-osd
[15:47] <rickspencer3> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/stracciatella-session
[15:47] <sabdfl> i think it would be healthy for kubuntu to include an equivalent, if you are up for it
[15:47] <sabdfl> (thanks rickspencer3 :-))
[15:47] <ScottK> I think it's good that you are providing that.  I think if this were truly an experiment that would be the default and the experiment would be opt-in.
[15:47] <sabdfl> which would mean folks could easily switch between both
[15:48] <sabdfl> there are limits - we won't provide two different versions of a package
[15:48] <sabdfl> so where behaviour changes aren't modular ("this display agent or that display agent") then that will require folks to do more work
[15:48] <sabdfl> but in principle, we would be very happy to support that
[15:48] <sabdfl> i really don't want us investing in KDE work to turn into a pissing contest
[15:49] <ScottK> + a bunch on that.
[15:49] <sabdfl> i'm excited to be hiring several KDE developers, and want them to do great work that makes free software better
[15:49] <sabdfl> they're all guys with deep roots in KDE, and who care for it
[15:49] <sabdfl> cool
[15:49] <ScottK> I think we're all very happy about that too.
[15:49] <sabdfl> as for the potholes, let's all put on fat tires, and work together :-)
[15:51] <davidbarth> Riddell: can you send me a link for the plasma sprints?
[15:51] <julian_> scottk: i'm interested in the potholes too to make sure we can fix what went wrong going forwards
[15:51] <ScottK> Pretty universally among the community Kubuntu developers I've discussed it with we have not felt that collaborative approach from Dx so far.  I for one am glad to hear it will be different in the future.
[15:52] <julian_> scottk: i'm not one to hide behind things that haven't worked so i'm listening from this point onwards
[15:52] <Riddell> davidbarth: they just had one earlier this month http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/Tokamak2
[15:53] <julian_> my first and main objective, is to keep focussed on whats important - user experience.
[15:54] <julian_> sorry if that sounds high-level, but its whats important and i'll work with you and the community to achieve that
[15:55] <ScottK> In many respsects we (Kubuntu devs) are the small fish caught between two big ones (Canonical/Ubuntu and KDE).
[15:56] <ScottK> So it is critical for us to be working well with both.
[15:57] <sabdfl> ScottK: it's fair comment that we haven't been collaborating well
[15:57] <sabdfl> i don't mind you calling us out on that, it's true
[15:57] <sabdfl> and will change
[15:57] <sabdfl> davidbarth will setup a mailing list for discussion across ubuntu, kubuntu and upstreams
[15:57] <sabdfl> of the work we're doing
[15:58] <sabdfl> i hope you will participate!
[15:58] <ScottK> I will.
[15:58] <sabdfl> some things we're working on for specific netbooks or partners
[15:58] <sabdfl> and the good news is, they have agreed to open source the results
[15:58] <sabdfl> those we can't discuss openly till their products ship
[15:58] <ScottK> That is good news.
[15:59] <sabdfl> but much of what we want to do is stuff we can ONLY do with healthy engagements upstream and in both desktops @ubuntu.com
[15:59] <ScottK> Of course.
[15:59] <sabdfl> david, mpt, rick and others are very sensitive to that
[15:59] <sabdfl> i hope you'll call BS on me if we don't have those forums up and running next week
[15:59]  * ScottK makes a note.
[16:00] <sabdfl> ;-)
[16:02] <sabdfl> i'm heading out to a meeting, but will lurk here from now on, feel free to ping me any time
[16:02]  * ScottK nods.  
[16:02] <ScottK> Have a nice meeting....
[16:02] <Riddell> thanks for chatting sabdfl
[16:04] <ScottK> One thing I like from the spec is the idea of having notifications last different amounts of time based on the amount of text/classification.
[16:04] <ScottK> In KDE 4.2 (as far as I've discovered) they all last the same amount of time, which is generally too short or too long.
[16:05] <mat_t> ScottK, that has already been specified
[16:05] <mat_t> nice to meet you btw :)
[16:05] <ScottK> Yes, and that's something that I think KDE would benifit from.
[16:06] <ScottK> Nice to meet you too.
[16:06] <mat_t> Just as a short introduction - I'm with Canonical's design team and was responsible for large part of notifications' design
[16:07] <mat_t> ScottK, absolutely
[16:08] <ScottK> I don't know the timing of the arrival of your KDE developers, but KDE 4.3 is open for business now ....
[16:09]  * agateau will be aboard on the 16th of march
[16:09]  * ScottK waves ...
[16:09] <ScottK> Welcome.
[16:09] <agateau> ScottK: thx :)
[16:09] <jjesse> thanks for the interesting discussion
[16:11] <ScottK> mat_t: I will honestly tell you that this notion of prohibiting actions on notifications seems so completely wrong to me (yes, I understand MI is there) that I have a very hard time getting past that to see the rest of the design.
[16:13] <Riddell> but you get notified by the MI, and you can click on that
[16:14] <ScottK> Riddell: Sure, but if I'm sitting there and a notification comes up that has a useful action associated with it, I see no benfiit in no-oping that action.
[16:14] <ScottK> I see benifit in not requiring it, but not in prohibiting it.
[16:15] <Riddell> the bubble notification goes away, there is only the MI for messages
[16:15] <Riddell> (as I understand it)
[16:16] <ScottK> I think that's problematic too.  Currently if I get highlighted on IRC and IRC isn't my active window I get a notification with the contents of the highlight.
[16:16] <ScottK> I wouldn't want that to go away.
[16:17] <Riddell> mat_t: does the MI replace that so people who want to see their highlighted messages get them immediately?
[16:24] <agateau> mmm... maybe the notification bubbles could appear like they are coming from the MI, so that they do not look too disconnected?
[16:25] <ScottK> Well the thing is, I know me.  I'm going to click on the bubble.  Please don't make that not work.
[16:26] <ScottK> The one public statement I've seen from a major KDE upstream developer wasn't very positive about that aspect of the proposal either.
[16:26] <agateau> if the bubble fades out before you can click it, you won't :)
[16:26] <ScottK> True, but I'm fast.
[16:26] <agateau> :)
[16:27] <ScottK> I've used systems that were spec'ed to respond to actions every 250 milliseconds and stressed them.
[16:28] <ScottK> Beyond my personal distaste for that aspect of the design, the likelihood that such a change wouldn't go upstream presents practical problems for us too.
[16:29] <mat_t> ScottK, please bear in mind that "no action" principle applies only to the notifications that would not require them in the first place :)
[16:29] <ScottK> mat_t: That doesn't seem to be the case currently as people are busily patching packages to not require them.
[16:29] <mat_t> ScottK, for any other ones we'll use either persistent indicator in the panel, or (in special cases only) a dialog window
[16:31] <ScottK> None of which really suit my case of an IRC highlight that I'd like to see (and click on if I'm here) but not requiring a persistent window, just some indication I've been highlighted.
[16:31] <mat_t> ScottK, yes, that is the case - it is based on the assumption, that if anything requires action/decision, it should be presented to the user directly
[16:31] <ScottK> But this doesn't require an action.  It has the option of one.
[16:32] <mat_t> ScottK, well, I guess there's always a case when "it would be nice" to have actions. Thing is, once you allow them once, the whole idea will get dissolved
[16:33] <ScottK> This is where i disagree with the design.
[16:34] <rgreening> i think the fundamental difference between Gnome/KDE is that KDE likes to have things configuarble. if this were configurable, then not so much an issue. we set the default desired behaviour but allow the user the choice.
[16:34] <ScottK> rgreening: +1
[16:34] <rgreening> choice is key
[16:34] <mat_t> Well, you have every right to. We always appreciate critical feedback, and if it becomes a trend, we will not ignore it :)
[16:34] <rgreening> for kde... I can rhyme too
[16:36] <ScottK> mat_t: So far in the discussions we've had here, I don't recally ANY of the community developers liking the no actions idea.
[16:36] <mat_t> Riddell, sorry I don't understand your question
[16:37] <rgreening> the reason I like KDE and dev for it is the choice it allows for its userbase. As part of the Kubuntu team, we try to follow as close to KDE as possible, providing patches back to kde for things we believe beneficial and hope they agree. We also try to set sane defaults for the user, but never try to remove choice
[16:38] <Riddell> we do only have one notification with an action currently, which is kopete
[16:38] <rgreening> KPAckageKtit has actions Riddell
[16:38] <ScottK> Quassel has one too, but it's currently bugged.
[16:38] <mat_t> ScottK, I personally know a few that think differently. Also, we have to also cater for users who may not be developers. And previous solution wasn't really working out for most of them :-)
[16:38] <rgreening> you can click to apply updates via it
[16:39] <ScottK> mat_t: That's fine, but then give choice.
[16:40]  * rgreening chants *choice* *choice*
[16:40] <mat_t> ScottK, developers always have choice, because they know how to change software themselves. Most users would not recognize that as a lack of choice, they make their choices elsewhere.
[16:41] <ScottK> mat_t: I'm not a C++ coder, I'm a Debian packager.  From that perspective, I'm a user too.
[16:41] <sabdfl> ScottK, Riddell: we'll have to work hard to make the MI feel slick and useful
[16:42] <rgreening> I'd hate to see Linux degrade into a "point-n-stupid" windows clone.
[16:42] <sabdfl> i agree with you, that it should feel easy and convenient
[16:42] <sabdfl> personally, i've enjoyed it, though the MI has some glitches with pidgin
[16:42] <rgreening> I represent my family and friends as well, all who use Kubuntu.
[16:42] <sabdfl> i want to see the pidgin plugin extended so that i can also instantly create a message for someone who i see signing in
[16:43] <sabdfl> so, the MI menu includes the people who've IM's me and the last n that just signed in
[16:43] <sabdfl> so if I see a notification that a friend signed in, i can trivially open up a chat
[16:43] <mat_t> rgreening, a good software is a software that let's you do stuff, regardless of how smart you are. I've seen great photos taken with the simplest point-and-shoot cameras
[16:44] <sabdfl> we deferred landing notifications in kubuntu because we didn't think we could get it all slick with the MI for KDE in time, agateau will put us ahead of the curve for 9.10
[16:45] <rgreening> Ah, but you can do the same with a DSLR and as simple, but you have the option to choose to modify the settings. Thats a fundamental differnece between Gnome and KDE.
[16:45] <rgreening> I personally would never go back to a point and shoot after using a DSLR
[16:45] <ScottK> sabdfl: I think a notify-osd alternative implementation that replaces part of KDE core functionality is not a good approach.
[16:45] <rgreening> and neither would my non-technical wife :)
[16:46] <sabdfl> rgreening: let's not turn this into a G vs K philosophy thing
[16:46] <mat_t> rgreening, I take photos with both, and I appreciate both :)
[16:46] <sabdfl> because in reality, there are tons of options on both sides
[16:46] <rgreening> sure, not meaning too...
[16:46] <sabdfl> and both sides also have embraced the "less is more" approach to design, depending on who you read
[16:47] <sabdfl> so, usually, saying "KDE believes this, and GNOME believes that", is (a) untrue and (b) just a reason not to work together
[16:47] <rgreening> I dont mean that. sorry. :)
[16:47] <sabdfl> rgreening: no offense taken or intended
[16:47] <ScottK> I'm in favor of working together.  I don't see ripping out chunks of KDE as working together.
[16:47] <rgreening> I do understand there are different approaches for the same goal.
[16:47] <sabdfl> ScottK: what would be a good approach?
[16:48] <rgreening> If Riddell can get a list of outstanding issues with notifications, lets work to improve them.
[16:48] <ScottK> Work with KDE upstream to extend the current KNotification implementation so that it can be configured to meet your goals.
[16:48] <rgreening> +1 scottk
[16:48] <Tm_T> hi sabdfl (:
[16:49] <rgreening> there is a great benefit in doijng it this way: All KDE desktops will benefit.
[16:49] <ScottK> Extending what's there is more collaborative, extensible, and maintainable.
[16:49] <rgreening> I agree.
[16:49] <sabdfl> howdy Tm_T
[16:49] <Tm_T> sabdfl: I have some things to talk with you when you're free, if that's ok
[16:50] <sabdfl> Tm_T: you have me here for a while, go for it
[16:50] <Riddell> rgreening: I'm sure tickboxes can be added as needed
[16:50] <sabdfl> ScottK: we can look into that
[16:50] <Riddell> ScottK: the exact implementation details have only been looked at briefly with me and davidbarth at the berlin sprint but we were looking at ways to work with knotify not replace it
[16:51] <sabdfl> i'd like to embrace FD.o technologies across both GNOME and KDE desktops
[16:51] <rgreening> Riddell: thats good to know
[16:51] <sabdfl> rather than have multiple implementations, too
[16:51] <ScottK> Riddell: I'm glad to hear that.  That's the direction we should be headed.
[16:51] <rgreening> sabdfl: +1 on that
[16:52] <rgreening> I wish someone would develope transporter technology already. We all need to be in one room to hash this out :) ... (I hope I get sponsored to UDS so we can chat in person again.. most beneficial).
[16:52] <ScottK> Riddell: All I know is what's been publically disclosed and as we discussed (I know you said different) the spec reads like an alternative.  Also rickspencer3 was not very reassuring on that point earlier today.
[16:53] <Tm_T> sabdfl: I msg'd you
[16:53] <rgreening> I think the KDE implementation has support for the notification icon like Dx is suggesting. When I download something, I get this indicator that hides the dl progress and I can click on it.
[16:54] <rgreening> so those stack.
[16:54] <rgreening> and hide
[16:54] <mat_t> ScottK, rgreening, thanks for the interesting discussion, it's very good to meet you. From now on I'll be popping in more often, always happy to discuss stuff.
[16:55] <rgreening> mat_t: glad to have you here. We a really good guys, who are very passionate (and sometimes it shows too much).
[16:55] <rgreening> :P
[16:55] <mat_t> :)
[16:55] <rgreening> but we mean well
[17:12] <Quintasan> Do we want a raptor-menu package?
[17:13] <rgreening> whats it look like?
[17:13] <rgreening> :)
[17:14] <Quintasan> rgreening: http://www.raptor-menu.org/
[17:14] <rgreening> looks interesting.
[17:15] <Quintasan> hmm the svn doesnt work :/
[17:15] <shtylman> I personally think that all the current menu options suck... :/
[17:16]  * seele is back
[17:16] <seele> hmm.. lots to read
[17:17] <Tm_T> seele: usually good thing in development channel (:
[17:17]  * Tm_T goes back to play with baby
[17:18] <seele> rickspencer3: i have not been working on the spec w/ mpt.
[17:18] <rickspencer3> seele: noted, thanks
[17:18] <rickspencer3> I was being presumptious, sorry about that
[17:20] <seele> rickspencer3: (oh, just saw the note where mpt clarifies this)
[17:20]  * seele is reading backlog
[17:21] <shtylman> biggest problems I see with the current menu system is that I have a screen that is X by X pixels...why are you using only a small corner of it!
[17:21]  * seele is also not keeping up with current chat since it isnt visible..
[17:29] <rgreening> shtylman: the menus can be resized
[17:29] <rgreening> by grabbing the corner and stretch :)
[17:30]  * seele hopes she never has to lead a meeting with you people. talk about herding cats! :P
[17:30] <rgreening> lol
[17:30] <shtylman> rgreening: yea..but why doesn't my computer do it for me?
[17:30] <rgreening> passionate bunch seele
[17:31] <shtylman> I open the menu to find something...not to resize it :)
[17:31] <rgreening> shtylman: if you do it once, it remembers the size you set.
[17:31] <rgreening> otherwise, hack a feature in for auto-sizing into the current :)
[17:31] <shtylman> rgreening: might be doing the latter
[17:32] <rgreening> shtylman: if you do it nicely, maybe we'll add it :)
[17:32] <shtylman> heh
[17:37] <rgreening> Riddell, scottK: you see this? http://bjknows.com/index.php/news/linux/726-ubuntu-904-sneak-peek
[17:38] <rgreening> THe menu is nice and uses pretty icons :)
[17:42] <Riddell> which menu rgreening?
[17:43] <rgreening> In the login screen (bottom left). THe shutdown options..
[17:43] <rgreening> looks Oxygen'ish :P
[17:44] <Riddell> I don't think that's new.  the icons are copying the crystal ones
[17:44] <rgreening> oh, maybe its the whole theme thats appealing
[17:45] <rgreening> it does look rather slick.
[17:46] <Riddell> that last screenshot isn't the default setup is it?  that is oxygenish
[17:46] <ScottK> It says not in the fine print.
[17:50] <rgreening> We need Ken Wimer to help us spiff up our Login screen :)
[17:52] <Quintasan> hmm looks like raptor uses some "features", http://wklej.org/id/57286/   anyway to fix this?
[17:56] <rgreening> Quintasan: yep, the CMakeLists.txt needs updating for 4.2 in that package
[17:56] <rgreening> Quintasan: paste me the CMakeLists.txt file
[17:57] <Quintasan> rgreening: http://wklej.org/id/57290/
[17:59] <Quintasan> rgreening: the svn didnt work so I found a git tree and I cloned it
[18:00] <Quintasan> git://gitorious.org/raptormenu/mainline.git
[18:01] <rgreening> Quintasan: try commenting out line 6 (FIND_Package(Plasma REQUIRED). It's part of KDE... so shouldn't need to find it.
[18:06] <rgreening> Riddell: have you looked at my PPA for qtjambi?
[18:06] <rgreening> If you are happy with my changes, we can upload it.
[18:07] <Riddell> shtylman: muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity.png  that's not so good
[18:07] <rgreening> I took the easy route for now.
[18:07] <Riddell> shtylman: othhe rest are lovely and will be in this alpha
[18:07] <Riddell> rgreening: busy testing CDs I'm afraid
[18:07] <wubbbi> hey :) I want to fix this bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/kubuntu-default-settings/+bug/309419) where can I find the default Panel size in the kubuntu-desktop-settings package?
[18:07] <Riddell> shtylman: having the bars disappear when you select another option is offputting too
[18:08] <shtylman> Riddell: the reason I made the bars dissapear was specifically because of that screenshot
[18:08] <shtylman> when the user has too many disks...it overcrowds the installer
[18:09] <Riddell> hmm, there must be a way to make it just fit
[18:09] <Riddell> I wonder what the gtk side does
[18:09] <rgreening> scrollable area if > 2 disks?
[18:09] <rgreening> by default hide scrollbars.
[18:09] <rgreening> seems reasonable
[18:10] <shtylman> the problem with the scrollable area is that it doesn't bring your attention to the disk you are working with
[18:10] <Riddell> why oh why does compositing work great from a live CD but not from an installed system
[18:10] <rgreening> if you have a ListView widget you can set focus on the list iten
[18:10] <shtylman> and can be a bit confusing because the disks arn't labeled
[18:10] <Tm_T> Riddell: different driver?
[18:10] <shtylman> right
[18:10] <Riddell> Tm_T: dunno, how would I tell?
[18:10] <wubbbi> Riddell: but is that really a KDE bug? I think its just a config bug which needs to be changed
[18:10] <wubbbi> -d
[18:11] <Riddell> ah, [    3.006453] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//intel_drv.so
[18:11] <Tm_T> Riddell: and/or differently discovered Xorg settings, maybe you should compare /var/log/Xorg.0.log files
[18:11] <Riddell> wubbbi: which?  the panel problems?
[18:12] <wubbbi> Riddel: yes
[18:12] <Riddell> shtylman: is the border on the bottom of the partition bars ment to be different from the other three sides?
[18:12] <Riddell> wubbbi: it's to do with our config file confusing the app
[18:12] <Riddell> wubbbi: but it doesn't affect everyone
[18:13] <wubbbi> Riddell: hmmm k
[18:13] <shtylman> Riddell: border on the bottom? it is meant to have a bit f white on it
[18:13] <shtylman> as well as grey
[18:13] <shtylman> oxygen people said it gives it the definition it needs or something like that
[18:14] <wubbbi> Riddell: so how to fix this now? doing a patch or changing the config file?
[18:14] <Riddell> wubbbi: if you can find a way to get the config file to have the applet layout we want without causing problems that would be preferred
[18:15] <wubbbi> Riddell: k I will try :)
[18:16] <rgreening> wubbbi, Riddell: is this another scale vs 100% on Wide Screen setup issue? Cause I have seen it on my system as well (Acer 6930 - Intel chipset)
[18:16] <seaLne> is live.2 ok today? my eee701 has been sitting for ~10min since i clicked forward after selecting keyboard
[18:18] <wubbbi> Riddell: Isn't it possible to set a 100% scale? that would be much easyier ;)
[18:18] <Riddell> seaLne: I've got it installing now
[18:19] <Riddell> seaLne: but check /var/log/installer/ for erros
[18:21] <seaLne> hmm its run out of disk space weird, looking more
[18:23] <seaLne> yeah weird / and /rofs are both 100%
[18:24] <seaLne> should they be?
[18:24] <Riddell>  /rofs will be but / should have space
[18:24] <Riddell> seaLne: how much memory does that machine have?
[18:24] <seaLne> 512
[18:24] <seaLne> was only 124M which kind of explains why it ran out?
[18:24] <seaLne>  / was
[18:25] <Riddell> this live session has / at 489MB using 187MB
[18:26] <Riddell> have you succeeded with this before seaLne?
[18:27] <seaLne> hardy was ok
[18:28] <Riddell> hmm, things may have changed since then
[18:28] <Riddell> if you were booting from CD I'd suggest try the install only mode
[18:30] <seaLne> dosen't work as you can't drag the installer about to access the off screen stuff
[18:30] <Riddell> hrm
[18:30] <seaLne> just now seems like a good time to replace the 512 with the 1Gb sitting on my desk
[18:30] <Riddell> seaLne: so it doesn't fit on the screen?  what's the resolution size?
[18:31] <Riddell> and it should use kwin so you should be able to use alt-<drag> no?
[18:31] <seaLne> 4xx can't remember, but its known to be to small
[18:31] <seaLne> i'll try it again
[18:32] <a|wen-> Riddell: alt+<drag> works as default in kde4
[18:32] <seaLne> works in live but didn't when i tried earlier in the install, trying again
[18:33] <rgreening> Riddell: alt+drag is not nice. It would be better to have a smaller window and scrollable areas (IMO)
[18:34] <rgreening> for the installer bits...
[18:35] <Riddell> shtylman: something for the ubiquity todo, let is adapt to screens like seaLne's
[18:37] <seaLne> even having the scrollable area on the left inside an entire scrollable window would probably be preferable to alt+drag and that would just involve not specifying min size?
[18:37] <shtylman> Riddell: what does his screen look like?
[18:38] <seaLne> eee 701
[18:38] <shtylman> resolution?
[18:38] <shtylman> cause I test ubiquity at 800x600 in a virtual machine
[18:38] <shtylman> but I guess eee go even smaller
[18:38] <seaLne> 800x480
[18:40] <Riddell> seaLne: there's no min size specified other than what the individual widgets need, it would mean adding a scrollview with all the widgets within that (which is fiddly not generally a good idea)
[18:40] <seaLne> ah, my crapy knowledge of Qt
[18:40] <Riddell> wait, I mean it's fiddly but is a good idea so long as you get it right and it doesn't cause problems on large screens
[18:41] <shtylman> seaLne: can we see a screen cap? cause that would better help me understand where to cut it down...
[18:41] <seaLne> shtylman: basically it fits to just above the buttons
[18:41] <shtylman> I am thinking that the eee has just one disk and such...so there may be an easy way to clip it
[18:42] <shtylman> seaLne: gotcha
[18:43] <ScottK> I found liw's mail message on excessive notifications timely.  It came in while I way busy disabling a bunch of power management notifications.
[18:44] <seaLne> i have that problem with kopete messages (from nagios) in intrepid with 4.2.0 often i have a black area on the screen until restarting
[18:45] <seaLne> the notification thingy dosen't seem to like trying to handle a few hundred notifications
[18:46] <shtylman> hahha
[18:56] <animesh> can anyone tell me about how to install kde in ubuntu other than the basic one apt-get install kubuntu-desktop like using cmake i want the brief of it
[18:57] <rgreening> animesh: that's really the best way to get the kde desktop
[18:57] <rgreening> animesh: what is it you really want?
[18:59] <rgreening> animesh: do you just want to use certain apps? or you want the plasma desktop?
[19:07] <allquixotic> Anyone know if/when we'll see Firefox-Qt available? Jaunty? :)
[19:08] <DasKreech> allquixotic: Holding your breath would be a mistake
[19:09] <allquixotic> DasKreech: Heh, I figured :)
[19:10] <jussi01> allquixotic: better option right now is to look towards arora...
[19:10] <DasKreech> allquixotic: Been a few years since it was coming soon
[19:10] <shtylman> Riddell: so what do you want me to do about the ubiquity disk bars? display all or just the selected?
[19:11] <allquixotic> jussi01: Yeah, but Arora doesn't have bookmark sync :(
[19:11] <allquixotic> I use FoxMarks but I'd be willing to jump to another system
[19:12] <jussi01> allquixotic: yeah, Its annoying I must say
[19:12] <DasKreech> arora sucks but it's here
[19:13] <DasKreech> Firefox sucks in a whole different way but it's compelling and not here
[19:13] <DasKreech> choose which annoying thing to be sad about :(
[19:14] <allquixotic> and if you use Konqueror, you get to live with it still thinking it's a file browser (would you just be a web browser? Dolphin is my file browser)
[19:14] <allquixotic> ...and with most websites not working
[19:14] <rgreening> Konq sux but its sukiness is between arora and firefox
[19:15] <rgreening> browser agent tag is evil and has caused the degradation of the internet as a whole. it should be abolished and instead focus on feature capability.
[19:15] <rgreening> if css ver x, do y.
[19:16] <rgreening> rather thna if browser ff do x, else fail cause you dont have ff
[19:16] <allquixotic> I like how Arora is an open source browser that gets 100/100 on Acid3
[19:16] <rgreening> +100 on that
[19:16] <allquixotic> Konqueror flunks
[19:16] <rgreening> but IE flunks a lot worse
[19:17] <allquixotic> Opera gets 100/100 and is blazingly fast, but it's closed source, they hate x86_64 (or lazy), and they stopped shipping the shared qt4 version that lets you pick your theme
[19:17] <allquixotic> they ship cleanlooks by default which is not even close to what i want
[19:17] <DasKreech> rgreening: I'm unsure that IE can be considered an open source browser
[19:18] <allquixotic> DasKreech: Ouch, that's snarky :)
[19:18] <seaLne> it must be look at all the "patches" people write for it :)
[19:19] <DasKreech> Anyway I think that with the steps Qt is making and the pushes that chrome is doing a Qt Firefox port is at least in the interest of trying a good project
[19:19] <allquixotic> this is interesting, does Opera use WebKit as its core?!?!?! it doesn't, does it? because Arora is behaving very very much like Opera
[19:19] <DasKreech> It may live and be marginalized like seamonkey is now
[19:19] <DasKreech> but that's fine
[19:19] <rgreening> ff is worse than konq for acid3 as well. 71 vs 85 for konq
[19:20] <allquixotic> http://www.plurk.com/allquixotic <--- almost perfectly fluid - only Chrome on Vista/Nvidia is faster, and I'm on Kubuntu/Intel, so the lag might be in the Intel 2d driver layer
[19:21] <a|wen-> works fluidly here in konqueror
[19:22] <allquixotic> a|wen-: Dragging the timeline left or right?
[19:22] <a|wen-> jup
[19:22] <allquixotic> The performance measurement is, as you left-click and drag on the timeline, it should scroll like a sliding window
[19:22] <allquixotic> if it's choppy then that's bad :-p
[19:22] <allquixotic> my observations is that scrolling the timeline on plurk (which is an intensive graphics/rendering/JS operation) is, fastest to slowest: Vista/Chrome/Nvidia; Kubuntu/Opera/Intel; Kubuntu/Arora/Intel; Ubuntu/FF-3.1/Intel; Ubuntu/FF-3.0/Intel... haven't tested the Nvidia box on Linux
[19:23] <seaLne> seems exceptable to me in konq
[19:23] <allquixotic> heh, everyone's concept of acceptable is different I guess :) once you get spoiled with Chrome, responsiveness that's on the order of 50ms longer is noticeable
[19:23] <allquixotic> the difference between Chrome and Arora is slight, but I really notice if I regress to Firefox stable
[19:24] <a|wen-> konqueror is much much better than FF
[19:25] <allquixotic> I am annoyed that konqueror doesn't do Gmail right though
[19:25] <jussi01> Im having crazy issues with ff atm, crashes most times I visit a page with flash...
[19:26] <rgreening> jussi01: if your icedtea6-plugin missing? My buddy was experiencing weirdness and the java (which some flash sites use) was missing and caused crashes.
[19:26] <jjesse> Riddell: got my stickers today, you rock thanks
[19:27] <DasKreech> allquixotic: Google messes with a lot of stuff. Very little that they do is standard
[19:28] <a|wen-> allquixotic: in most cases pretending that you are something else than konqueror works (it's a google decision that it shouldn't work)
[19:28] <allquixotic> It seems to like Arora though!
[19:28] <a|wen-> allquixotic: it likes webkit i suppose
[19:29] <jussi01> rgreening: which package do I need for that?
[19:30] <jussi01> rgreening: although I expect its flash as  Im using the 64 bit beta plugin
[19:31] <DreadKnight> hello i've upgraded one laptop to jaunty and i can't find the network manager anywhere... the network plasmoid is not installed as well...
[19:31] <DreadKnight> wtf to do ? no internet connection...
[19:31] <rgreening> jussi01: oh
[19:32] <rgreening> jussi01: look for icedtea6-plugin
[19:32] <DasKreech> DreadKnight: Pigeon Protocol
[19:32] <seaLne> sudo dhclient if its wired?
[19:32] <DreadKnight> wireless...
[19:32] <jussi01> rgreening: nah, already had it. I guess its the flashplugins fault
[19:33] <rgreening> [prob
[19:33] <DreadKnight> can i get the network plasmoid for 64bit from somewhere and just install it on that laptop?
[19:33] <DreadKnight> .deb file
[19:34] <DreadKnight> as far as i know ubuntu has some repository site with the packages or something
[19:37] <shtylman> packages.ubuntu.com
[19:37] <allquixotic> oy, I just dragged the system-settings icon in the Favorites menu from the top to the bottom and plasma crashed
[19:37] <DreadKnight> found this a few mins ago http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/plasmoid-network-manager
[19:37] <DasKreech> DreadKnight: iwconfig ?
[19:38] <DreadKnight> O_o
[19:38] <DreadKnight> argh
[19:39] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/plasma-widget-network-manager
[19:39] <DreadKnight> i can't even find the network manager... perhaps of the native language
[19:39] <a|wen-> at least that is the one kubuntu-desktop recommends
[19:40] <DreadKnight> anyway... i think kubuntu devs should fix this crap
[19:42] <allquixotic> nm-applet (the GNOME one) works fine in Kubuntu now
[19:42] <allquixotic> you just have to launch it
[19:43] <allquixotic> Hmm, it seems the manually saved session has died again! (again..!)
[19:43] <DreadKnight> with no internet i couldn't install shit
[19:43] <noren> speed up konqueror ??
[19:44] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: according to the seed the plasma-widget-network-manager should be on the cd
[19:44] <DreadKnight> but i got the widget package on this pc and transfered it / installed in on that one.. everything fine now.. but if i only had one pc it would have sucked
[19:44] <DreadKnight> i don't have the damn cd.. i upgraded from lower version
[19:44] <DreadKnight> xD
[19:45] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: do you have "kubuntu-desktop" installed ... and be sure to tell your package manager to install recommends
[19:45] <DreadKnight> the older kubuntu just had too many errors.. even erased .kde... not sure what was the deal
[19:46] <allquixotic> In KDE 3.x, there was a menu item for "Save Session" which would store your open programs in a list that the session manager restores when you login... this was great... KDE 4.0's session manager still supports manually saved sessions, but there's no way to save them. annma in #kde brought it back with a patch to 4.1-pre. Now it's gone again!?!
[19:46] <a|wen-> if that is the case it should be installed automatically
[19:46] <noren> speed up konqueror ?? help anyone, i want faster web surfing !!
[19:46] <allquixotic> noren: WYGIWYG...
[19:46] <allquixotic> if you want a faster browser, use a different browser
[19:47] <DreadKnight> konqueror sucks with khtml.. and the webkit plugin has long way to go
[19:47] <noren> allquixotic:  nothing ccan be done to konqueror i guess then
[19:47] <DreadKnight> allquixotic: most of the errors i think where related to session saving... heh
[19:48] <a|wen-> allquixotic: works for me in kde4.2
[19:49] <a|wen-> you need to set it to "restore manually saved session" then you get the save session option where the logout option is as well
[19:49] <a|wen-> (or works in the sense, that the option is there)
[19:49] <allquixotic> a|wen-: I set that and the option doesn't show up
[19:50] <allquixotic> maybe i have to log out of my session
[19:50] <a|wen-> allquixotic: it took a few moments, and a few open/closes to get it to appear here
[19:50] <allquixotic> a|wen-: Oh! Yes, I see it now
[19:50] <allquixotic> it's far from instant :)
[19:50] <a|wen-> :)
[19:51] <allquixotic> cool
[19:51] <allquixotic> I like
[19:51] <a|wen-> it isn't instant at all ... i've learned that about the menu
[19:51] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: did/do you have kubuntu-desktop installed?
[19:51] <DreadKnight> try arora perhaps? :P
[19:51] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: of course
[19:52] <DreadKnight> bah... brasero so pawns k3b and doesn't have gtk dependencies
[19:52] <DreadKnight> except the nautilus plugin
[19:52] <a|wen-> strange ... i just double-checked; it is a recommends of kubuntu-desktop, so should be installed; at least with default settings of aptitude/apt
[19:53] <DreadKnight> how come kpackage doesn't gets installed in jaunty?
[19:53] <DreadKnight> as far as i used it... it still skips installing some stuff, so i still depend on the crappy adept
[19:54] <ScottK> Would someone please explain to me how an error like https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebindings/4:4.2.0-0ubuntu3/+build/882830/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-hppa.kdebindings_4:4.2.0-0ubuntu3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz can happen only on one arch?
[19:54] <DreadKnight> kpackagekit*
[19:54] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: kpackagekit should be installed as well (is a recommends) ... are you sure that apt is set to install recommends on your machine?
[19:55] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: i don't usually use that since it's no where activated by default
[19:55] <DreadKnight> and in kde not even sure how to set that up
[19:56] <a|wen-> how did you update to jaunty?
[19:56] <valgaav> I hate both and use synaptic :P
[19:56] <DreadKnight> i replaced intrepid with jaunty mainly :P
[19:56]  * DasKreech loves Adept
[19:56] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: using what application / package manager?
[19:56] <DreadKnight> adept sucks hard and it's not even developed anymore
[19:56] <DreadKnight> the gui's usability of adept is horrible overall
[19:56]  * ScottK finds the security features of both Adept and Kpackagekit fatally deficient and uses neither.
[19:57] <shtylman> kpackagekit doesn't work for me...so I just use the command line for now..
[19:57] <DreadKnight> a|wen-:  editing the sources.list file :P with kate
[19:57] <a|wen-> and what then...
[19:57] <DreadKnight> distr-upgrade command never really worked out for me in kubuntu/kde
[19:57] <DreadKnight> in ubuntu works just fine
[19:58] <a|wen-> did you use adept / apt / aptitude to do a full-upgrade?
[19:58] <DreadKnight> usually use apt / konsole
[19:58] <DreadKnight> because adept used to not install all the stuff, i think that's fixed recently
[20:01] <rgreening> shtylman: if kpackagekit isnt working, you prob dont have kpackagekit installed. There seems to be a dep issue (Tonio_)
[20:02] <DreadKnight> xD
[20:02] <rgreening> sry, meant packagekit
[20:02] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: any output from running "cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/* | grep -i recommends" ?
[20:02] <shtylman> rgreening: I see....lemme try to install it
[20:02] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: nope
[20:03] <a|wen-> and "cat /etc/apt/apt.conf | grep -i recommends" ?
[20:03] <DreadKnight> cat: /etc/apt/apt.conf: No such file or directory
[20:04] <shtylman> rgreening: the program runs...but I can't search for software or update with it...or really do anything useful :)
[20:06] <valgaav> maybe a stupid question but why isn't kgtk included in jaunty or even available at some ppa ?
[20:06] <valgaav> that aplication is really nice when it comes to integration with gtk+
[20:11] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: uh, my bad ... apt-get does not install recommends as default
[20:11] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: that's why aptitude is recommended to use (apt-get is rather low-level)
[20:11] <DreadKnight> mhm
[20:11] <DreadKnight> i heard long time ago that aptitude deprecates apt-get
[20:11] <DreadKnight> then get rid of apt-get already >_<
[20:12] <ScottK-desktop> a|wen-: Apt does install recommends by default.
[20:12] <a|wen-> ScottK-desktop: are you sure?
[20:13] <DreadKnight> never ever did for me
[20:13]  * ScottK-desktop goes and installs something.
[20:13] <DreadKnight> i am using ubuntu/kubuntu for years now
[20:14] <DreadKnight> it just lists the recommended packages, nothing more
[20:14] <a|wen-> ScottK-desktop: thought so to ... but just tested; it spits out the recommends so you can choose to install it, but didn't install it
[20:14] <DreadKnight> and i think there is a command to install them for a certain package.
[20:14] <DreadKnight> yeah
[20:14] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: but in general ... aptitude is your friend ;(
[20:14] <a|wen-> ;)
[20:14] <maco> it installs recommends by default as of last december
[20:14] <maco> like december 2007
[20:14] <DreadKnight> not here
[20:15] <a|wen-> neither here
[20:15] <maco> i think it was december...it's on debian-announce
[20:15] <a|wen-> (and this is a new install after the intrepid release)
[20:15] <DreadKnight> wtf is going on? conspiracy ?
[20:15] <rgreening> Suggest <> Recommends and Recommends are supposed to be by default, but I think Adept == broke for this
[20:16] <ScottK-desktop> Installs Reccomends here.
[20:16] <DreadKnight> anyone has any idea in gnome when pressing alt +f2 how to i start the terminal thing?
[20:16] <ScottK-desktop> apt-get install spamassassin yields: libmail-spf-perl libsocket6-perl libsys-hostname-long-perl libsys-syslog-perl re2c spamassassin spamc
[20:16] <maco> DreadKnight: type "gnome-terminal" into it
[20:16] <ScottK-desktop> Some of those are recommends.
[20:17] <DasKreech> DreadKnight: gnome-terminal
[20:17] <a|wen-> ScottK: is it somewhere in your apt.conf ?
[20:17] <DasKreech> DreadKnight: or sudo apt-get install xterm && xterm
[20:17] <DreadKnight> thanks guys, been stumbling into that for years >_<
[20:17] <ScottK-desktop> Not that I've changed, but let me look.
[20:17] <maco> it is toggle-able in a config file
[20:17] <rgreening> shtylman: if you didn't have packagekit installed, the boxes would be greyed out. installing packagekit, will also require you killall kpackagekit and kpackagekit-smart-icon in order for the app to make use of the newly installed packagekit. If not, it will remain greyed out.
[20:18] <maco> nope, it was october 2007
[20:18] <maco> http://www.archivum.info/linux.debian.announce.devel/2007-08/msg00000.html
[20:18] <ScottK-desktop> a|wen-: Nope.  No mention of it in the conf file.
[20:18] <shtylman> rgreening: indeed...now it works...thanks
[20:19] <rgreening> :)
[20:19] <rgreening> been there done that myself shtylman... :)
[20:19] <ScottK-desktop> During Intrepid we based a huge number of assumptions about packaging on recommends by default.
[20:19] <rgreening> I cursed on it for a while too
[20:19] <maco> To turn this feature off, pass --no-install-recommends to apt or set,
[20:19] <maco> in your apt configuration, APT::Install-Recommends=False.
[20:19] <rgreening> eheh
[20:19] <maco> that's what the announcement says
[20:20] <ScottK-desktop> Oh, and install recommends for metapackages like kubuntu-desktop has been here since Feisty.
[20:20] <arcosh> Hi I can't find binary packages of kdebase-runtime-4.2 and some some other important kde4.2 packages in the ppa experimental repository. I was in the #kubuntu channel they sent me here
[20:20] <ScottK-desktop> arcosh: They are in intrepid-backports now.
[20:20] <arcosh> ah ok thank you
[20:23] <DreadKnight> can you guys make brasero default until k3b gets ported? and get rid of that lame nautilus plugin dependency (nautilus not even installed)
[20:23] <DreadKnight> doesn't have gtk dependencies and it's way better overall... k3b's file browsing menu sucks.. can't even pick up usb drives and has crap in it
[20:24] <DreadKnight> k3b is phail overall actually
[20:25] <a|wen-> ScottK-desktop, maco: okay, thx for clarification
[20:26] <ScottK-desktop> DreadKnight: No.
[20:27] <maco> DreadKnight: brasero lacks gtk dependencies? O_o
[20:27] <DreadKnight> hmm .. or just gnome perhaps
[20:29] <seaLne> pretty sure gnome has gtk dependancies :)
[20:29] <DreadKnight> i meant "or just lacks gnome dependencies"
[20:30] <a|wen-> ScottK-desktop: ahh, the difference is that apt installs only recommends on the package in question, while aptitude will do it recursively also for packages being pulled in further down the chain
[20:31] <ScottK-desktop> I see.
[20:31] <ScottK-desktop> Interesting.
[20:32] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: did you try a "sudo apt-get install --fix-policy --install-recommends" ?
[20:33] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: holy shit.. wants to install a ton of crap there
[20:33] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: maybe "sudo apt-get install --fix-policy --install-recommends kubuntu-desktop" is better
[20:34] <a|wen-> it should pull in all the recommends that you for some reason missed
[20:34] <DreadKnight> somewhat better
[20:34] <DreadKnight> deskbar-applet? usplash-theme-ubuntu? ubuntu-keyring? wtf?...
[20:35] <DreadKnight> synaptic?
[20:35] <valgaav> yey for installing with recommends ... with this with firefox you will also get gnome-mount ...
[20:35] <valgaav> luckilly you can switch recommends off
[20:35] <DreadKnight> installing firefox is so sucky.. apt-url... synaptic.. gnome keyring and a lot of shit ..
[20:35] <Tscheesy> this is this ubufox-packet.. you don't need
[20:35] <valgaav> not really
[20:36] <DreadKnight> well how should i instlal firefox then?
[20:36] <valgaav> apt-get --no-install-recommends install firefox
[20:37] <DreadKnight> phail T_T
[20:38] <DreadKnight> it's not cool for ubuntu to throw shit at you if you want to install firefox... it should have it's own shit in another metapackage for synaptic and so on
[20:38] <DreadKnight> i only use pidgin and have nautilus because of the dropbox client... don't want to have all the gnome thing
[20:39] <valgaav> Dk install synpatic with the same command
[20:39] <DreadKnight> and use firefox as well, which is not really part of gnome
[20:39] <DreadKnight> i don't want synaptic
[20:39] <valgaav> so why to write about it ? :D
[20:39] <DreadKnight> i only want firefox and base deps to install when i'm installing it
[20:39] <DreadKnight> not half of gnome crap
[20:39] <valgaav> so does my method fail ?
[20:39] <DreadKnight> you're method is a bit more obscure
[20:39] <valgaav> --no-install-recommends
[20:40] <DreadKnight> and using a package manager doesn't cuts it
[20:40] <DreadKnight> bash geeks
[20:40] <Tscheesy> use Aptitude
[20:40] <valgaav> in synpatic in preferences
[20:40] <valgaav> you can turn off installing reccommended packages
[20:40] <DreadKnight> in synaptic,,.... but i don;t use synaptic
[20:41] <DreadKnight> i have adept and kpackagekit which are rather lame jokes atm
[20:41] <DasKreech> DreadKnight: That's not synaptic's fault
[20:41] <valgaav> well yes
[20:41] <valgaav> use synaptic then
[20:41] <DreadKnight> hope adept will get kicked out... i might do some mockups for kpackagekit's interface
[20:41] <rgreening> kpackagekit is a new beast and much a work in progress, but will be better than Adept.
[20:41] <valgaav> with qt-gtk-engined it integrates nicelly with kde4
[20:41] <valgaav> engines
[20:41] <DreadKnight> i really wonder why devs didn't worked with shaman from arch
[20:42] <DreadKnight> with a bit of help would have supported apt backed etc
[20:42] <DreadKnight> backend*
[20:42] <valgaav> DK why do you don't want to use Synaptic ?
[20:43] <DreadKnight> really looking forward to when kde will be usable without any gnome stuff
[20:44] <DreadKnight> guess that's still far away from now
[20:45] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: when konqueror uses+works with webkit and the new k3b arrives together with koffice2...
[20:46] <DreadKnight> yeah... and a lot of polish to be made in other parts
[20:46] <DreadKnight> but arora is getting kde integration as well
[20:46] <DreadKnight> might be a better choice
[20:46] <DreadKnight> better name as well
[20:47] <a|wen-> firefox + oo.org is the only gnome-apps i have
[20:47] <DreadKnight> kde distros usually bundle konqueror... which is krap
[20:47] <maco> heh, i use pidgin, gwibber, terminator, firefox..
[20:48] <DreadKnight> and the web browser is one of the most used apps to say so
[20:48] <maco> kontact is the only kde app i actually use in kde
[20:48] <a|wen-> konqueror performs quite well imo; but it fails miserably at some sites (and might need some polishing too)
[20:48] <DreadKnight> i use firefox, pidgin (kopete is epic phail atm), gimp, inkscape, have nautilus as well just for dropbox... hmm what else...
[20:49] <DreadKnight> i use google docs a lot and it's phail with konqueror, even with webkit it seems
[20:49] <DreadKnight> you can't bundle something that doesn't works with many sites well into a distro
[20:49] <maco> DreadKnight: i forgot about inkscape and gimp
[20:49]  * a|wen- likes kopete
[20:50] <DreadKnight> kmess is so way nicer than kopete in chat windows etc
[20:50] <maco> i dislike kopete for the same reason i dislike empathy: forced alphabetizing
[20:50] <DreadKnight> the new version of kmess i mean
[20:50] <maco> in pidgin i can put similar groups near each other
[20:51] <DreadKnight> wished that kde would just have a great jabber client out of the box and not give a fuck about closed source IM protocols... just like apple does with ichat
[20:51] <_StefanS_> which one is best for kde4, fglrx, or nvidia as it is right now ?
[20:51] <yao_ziyuan> has kubuntu 9.04 frozen new features?
[20:51] <maco> i thought iChat was an oscar client
[20:51] <a|wen-> maco: i'd call that a minor issue ... but apart from that kopete does the job
[20:52] <maco> a|wen-: its an annoyance
[20:52] <DreadKnight> kopete doesn;t even have a first time wizard... and has a lot of annoying bugs atm... and it's not very intuitive to find the accound manager.. and the chat window is fugly and default emoticons are krap
[20:52] <DreadKnight> t*
[20:52] <DreadKnight> tango emoticons are 100x way nicer than the old msn ones
[20:53] <DreadKnight> a ton of small annoyances like this that add up
[20:53] <DreadKnight> can't even receive files over yahoo.. or see avatars... and default config is "eeeek >_<"
[20:53] <yao_ziyuan> i just want to inform you guys that over recent weeks, Crystal kwin and QtCurve KDE4/KDE3/GTK2 style have evolved better than ever
[20:53] <_StefanS_> yao_ziyuan: evolved, how ?
[20:54] <DreadKnight> yao_ziyuan: screenies ?
[20:54] <yao_ziyuan> more beautiful, more bug-free, should be selected as default theme
[20:54] <DreadKnight> i wonder why it's called "QT"-curve.. shitty name
[20:54] <maco> a|wen-: i put a tech blog, then devchix, then linux, then hackers (sometimes figuring out if someone goes in linux or hackers is hard), then different cities i've lived in (so when i'm in one i can easily grab someone nearby to see if they want to hang out)...etc
[20:54] <maco> DreadKnight: the toolkit is qt
[20:54] <maco> simple enough reason
[20:55]  * _StefanS_ is pretty impressed with the speed of jaunty over intrepid all around
[20:55] <DreadKnight> using qt to make a theme that also works on gtk2? >_<
[20:55] <_StefanS_> feels alot more smooth
[20:55] <DreadKnight> and if you use a certain toolkit.. you shouldn't make the name of the thing shit like that
[20:55] <yao_ziyuan> _StefanS_: well, for Crystal kwin, it has fixed a long standing bug which causes hollow edges when a window is half-maximized and minimized and restored
[20:55] <jussi01> !ohmy | DreadKnight
[20:55] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: so most of all you dislike the default settings ... then help make up some new ones, that everybody can agree on :)
[20:55] <_StefanS_> yao_ziyuan: are they on kde-look?
[20:55] <_StefanS_> gotta try it out
[20:56] <yao_ziyuan> _StefanS_: yeah
[20:56] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: you working on kopete? neat
[20:56] <yao_ziyuan> i'm going to convince you guys with some screenshots
[20:56] <a|wen-> maco: i see it is an annoyance (and i hope it get fixed as well)
[20:56] <DreadKnight> jussi01: that "g" and "k" fanaticism when naming stuff is really not cool at all
[20:56] <DreadKnight> "gnome do" is the worst
[20:56] <_StefanS_> DreadKnight: right on :)
[20:56] <DreadKnight> "it can even be used in xfce and kde" ... heh
[20:57] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: no; but changing the chat-window, emoticons etc. can be done as part of the kubuntu's default settings
[20:57] <DreadKnight> what the heck does gnome does in kde? xD
[20:57] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: i see :) so when do you think it's a good time? :)
[20:58] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: as 4.2 is in the archive, it should be possible to start now
[20:58] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: ok, firing up kopete
[20:59] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: i'm quite sure that everybody is open for change, as long as they also agree, that it is for the better
[20:59] <rgreening> +1 for making things prettier :)
[21:00] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: yeah, don't worry... i'm a graphic person, soon to be usability 'expert' (graphic designer etc)
[21:01] <rgreening> \o/ DreadKnight
[21:01] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: sounds like you are the right one for helping out with default settings
[21:01] <hunger> DreadKnight: ... or at least be the right one soon:-)
[21:01]  * a|wen- will leave for now ... and go to sleep
[21:02] <rgreening> I wish we had new artwork for Kubuntu :(  I hate those dam circles. I like Ken Wimers work for Ubuntu. He's awesome :)
[21:02] <yao_ziyuan> http://i43.tinypic.com/2aeumqa.png
[21:02] <yao_ziyuan> http://i40.tinypic.com/23magbn.png
[21:02] <maco> rgreening: funny, people usually whine about what goes into ubuntu's wallpapers...
[21:02] <yao_ziyuan> http://i41.tinypic.com/2i7075k.png
[21:03] <DreadKnight> really looking forward to improving the desktop experience regarding open source especially with kde, then gnome; and i studied a lot the HIG stuff as well as how Apple does things.. and used most of the IM clients on windoze
[21:03] <rgreening> maco: have you seen he login screen ken did?
[21:03] <maco> rgreening: no
[21:03] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: i'm leaving ... but i'm sure that some of the others can help you with how the whole kubuntu-default-settings cirkus works :)
[21:03] <maco> and then they say how fedora and suse and kde all have these pretty blue and green wallpapers and call ubuntu's brown ugly and....well one person called the ibex a skull, most called it a coffee stain, and then there were the people claiming the heron was bleeding out of its neck...
[21:04] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: um... ok.. if you're in a hurry...
[21:04] <DreadKnight> i'm around here most of the time (or on irc)
[21:04] <yao_ziyuan> note that qtcurve's author once made a gtk-qt-engine like thing but now he only focuses on the cross-DE style QtCurve.
[21:04] <hunger> maco: The bleeding was fixed before the final release though.
[21:04] <yao_ziyuan> i guess he's right.
[21:04] <DreadKnight> that theme is rather ugly.. making the buttons in faded squares like that = not cool
[21:04] <maco> hunger: and then i went and found the original and put it back to my wallpaper
[21:04] <maco> that one was so much nicer
[21:04]  * a|wen- needs some sleep (getting late in my time-zone) ... but feel free to catch me again!
[21:04] <DreadKnight> i used that theme for a while
[21:05] <maco> all the colors were taken away for release. bleh.
[21:05] <yao_ziyuan> wait. i didn't show you guys how cool qtcurve's new menus are
[21:05] <DreadKnight> a|wen-: cool , talk with you tomorrow, ok? night!
[21:05] <a|wen-> DreadKnight: sure!
[21:05] <hunger> maco: Dunno. Never used it, only read about the heron pic. I always set custom images.
[21:06] <DreadKnight> yao_ziyuan: are you working on those themes yourself?
[21:06] <DreadKnight> bah
[21:06] <DreadKnight> yao_ziyuan: are you working on those themes yourself?
[21:07] <yao_ziyuan> no but i made bug reports and suggestions to their authors and they're adopted
[21:07] <maco> hunger: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/03/hardy-heron-wallpaper-fela-kuti-botch.html
[21:07] <yao_ziyuan> the authors of crystal kwin and qtcurve kde/gtk style are extremely responsive
[21:07] <DreadKnight> yao_ziyuan: it's cool overall, the text boxes are too squarish.. but the window's decoration buttons (minimize/maximize/close/etc) are fugly imho
[21:08] <DreadKnight> so a no-no to that part
[21:08] <yao_ziyuan> DreadKnight: qtcurve lets your customize controls with a wide variety of options
[21:08] <yao_ziyuan> like Dull Glass, Shiny Glass, Flat, ...
[21:08] <DreadKnight> hmm... well i like the idea of bridging gnome and kde's look
[21:09] <hunger> DreadKnight: It is fine as long as they do *behave* identical, too. Most of the time they do not and then I really appreciate having visual feedback where the app comes from.
[21:10] <yao_ziyuan> sexy menu separators: http://i43.tinypic.com/5eagdz.png
[21:11] <DreadKnight> hunger: agree
[21:11] <yao_ziyuan> hunger: qtcurve has options such as enforcing kde button order for gtk apps
[21:11] <DreadKnight> neat
[21:12] <DreadKnight> i used that theme for a while (crystal?) when it was default in kubuntu 7.10 or something i recall
[21:12] <maco> hunger: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti scroll to Remixes to see Troy's first version
[21:12] <yao_ziyuan> DreadKnight: right
[21:13] <hunger> yao_ziyuan: What about instant apply? There are lots of differences in all the details of event handling.
[21:13] <DreadKnight> oxygen phails when not having a nice border for some of the elements... in gnome i like glossy theme a lot
[21:13] <yao_ziyuan> hunger: what do you mean by 'instant apply'?
[21:14] <hunger> yao_ziyuan: With kde apps you have cancel and apply buttons to accept settings.
[21:14] <hunger> yao_ziyuan: Gnome has "instant apply" where settings are applied directly.
[21:14] <yao_ziyuan> well, it seems gedit and pidgin's Preferences dialog boxes only have "Close"
[21:15] <hunger> yao_ziyuan: Yeap. That is due to instant apply.
[21:15] <yao_ziyuan> but such differences never caught my attention
[21:15] <yao_ziyuan> i just thought it was app-specific
[21:15] <yao_ziyuan> never thought it's DE-specific
[21:15] <DreadKnight> yao_ziyuan: so what are the packages ? kde4-style-qtcurve and kde4-style-qtcurve-kdeconfig ?
[21:15] <yao_ziyuan> DreadKnight: no you have to download the latest versions from kde-look.org
[21:15] <DreadKnight> mhm
[21:16] <yao_ziyuan> DreadKnight: and for gtk2 apps to really use the same font as that of kde, you must run "gnome-settings-daemon" at kde startup
[21:16] <hunger> yao_ziyuan: Putting the same paint on every app is a very broken idea IMHO, even is some of the differences are plastered over.
[21:16] <DreadKnight> hmm
[21:17] <hunger> Please don't do that! That baby drags in so much unnecessary dependencies!
[21:17] <yao_ziyuan> here is a complete guide:
[21:17] <DreadKnight> yeah, sort of like what kopete tries doing and phails in all the places
[21:17] <yao_ziyuan> 1. download and compile QtCurve's sources (KDE4 and GTK2 ports) from http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=40492
[21:18] <yao_ziyuan> 2. download and compile Crystal's source from http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Crystal?content=75140
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> compiling them in kubuntu 8.10 is always like:
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> (go into the uncompressed folder)
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> mkdir build
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> cd build
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/usr ..
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> make
[21:19] <yao_ziyuan> sudo make install
[21:20] <DreadKnight> xD
[21:20] <DreadKnight> i'm heading out for now, must catch up with some game development
[21:20] <DreadKnight> byes
[21:20] <rgreening> Riddell: we need to get an updated kpackagekit 0.4, and packagekit 0.3.14-0ubuntu3 (both available in packagekit PPA). The updates include a couple of patches required for our new Add/Remove programs and some enhancements to Search/Find which came as a result of those discussions.
[21:21] <yao_ziyuan> 3. start a Konsole and run "gnome-settings-daemon". this will let newly started gtk+ apps to really use kde font, especially firefox as seen in http://i41.tinypic.com/2i7075k.png
[21:22] <yao_ziyuan> 4. optionally, there is a Firefox theme "Oxygen 1.0" which will enhance firefox's appearance for kde 4
[21:23] <rgreening> Riddell: The find is infinately more useful now that you can choose based on package name, description, or file name (desktop file name).
[21:25] <yao_ziyuan> recently i also found a nice thunderbird extension that can dock tb into linux tray, but this is going too far
[21:26] <yao_ziyuan> the current status of gtk-qt-engine for kde4 is disappointing. it hasn't done well for firefox.
[21:26] <yao_ziyuan> i miss gtk-qt-engine for kde3.
[21:30] <yao_ziyuan> well, gnome-settings-daemon is optional.
[21:30] <yao_ziyuan> i've heard you can modify the gtkrc file to get gtk apps using a font you specify but i never succeeded.
[21:34] <yao_ziyuan> DreadKnight: yeah the Crystal kwin in my screenshots has button style "Kubuntu Edgy" but this old thing still rocks
[21:35] <valgaav> would be nice if gtk-qt engnes get some more love and merged in something alike to kgtk
[21:35] <valgaav> gnome file dialogs are really bad
[21:35] <valgaav> I guess something for print dialogs would be also nice :P
[21:39] <yao_ziyuan> the good thing for crystal + qtcurve is its appeal is enduring
[21:39] <yao_ziyuan> there was a even more shiny kde style Polyester back in kubuntu 7.10
[21:39] <yao_ziyuan> unfortunately it has no gtk port
[21:40] <yao_ziyuan> but qtcurve has evolved to match it
[21:42] <valgaav> btw what about firefox qt port ?
[21:42] <valgaav> it was supposed to be finished with ff 3.1
[21:42] <yao_ziyuan> ...
[21:42] <yao_ziyuan> abandoned
[21:43] <yao_ziyuan> but i'm not a credible source
[21:43] <yao_ziyuan> i actually downloaded and compiled once
[21:43] <yao_ziyuan> it barely runs
[21:44] <yao_ziyuan> also it's not necessary for every major app to have a qt port
[21:44] <yao_ziyuan> i use realplayer and adobe reader daily
[21:44] <yao_ziyuan> they are gtk+ apps
[21:45] <valgaav> oh noh ....
[21:45] <valgaav> it was looking so good few months ago ...
[21:46] <yao_ziyuan> firefox is the only app that gtk-qt-engine doesn't handle well
[21:46] <yao_ziyuan> which prompted me to watch firefox-qt's progress for a while
[21:47] <yao_ziyuan> but people in irc.mozilla.org/#firefox said there is no definite release schedule for it
[21:48] <valgaav> I see
[21:49] <valgaav> thanks for sharing that info
[21:49] <yao_ziyuan> and finally i found peace with qtcurve
[21:49] <valgaav> btw gtk-qt engine doesn't handle well OOo too
[21:49] <valgaav> in fact it is not usable with it
[21:50] <yao_ziyuan> yes, also not well for tcl/tk apps such as amsn which i used for a while
[21:50] <valgaav> qtcurve solves the file dialog issue ?
[21:51] <valgaav> or is it just a theme ?
[21:52] <yao_ziyuan> qtcurve calls gtk+ file dialogs for gtk+ apps
[21:55] <yao_ziyuan> qtcurve/gtk works with ooo well except the menus are still custom-drawn by ooo
[21:57] <yao_ziyuan> valgaav: what is "the file dialog issue"?
[21:57] <yao_ziyuan> valgaav: trying to use kde file dialogs for gtk+ apps?
[21:57] <valgaav> yes
[21:57] <shtylman> what is the best way to apply a diff.gz file to already extracted sources?
[21:57] <valgaav> I actually am auite annoyed with havig 3 different file dialogs on mys system
[21:58] <valgaav> the Qt4 one the kde4 one and the gtk+ one
[22:01] <yao_ziyuan> i didn't pay attention to these differences at all...
[22:01] <yao_ziyuan> but i believe there are tools to make this happen
[22:03] <yao_ziyuan> google tells me KGtk
[22:03] <yao_ziyuan> http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=36077
[22:18] <valgaav> well kgtk is a hack ... I'm quite envous of gtk+ based environments which thanks to qt 4.5 will get good integration with both gtk+ and qt out of the box
[22:32] <ghostcube> when will qt 4.5 be final :)
[22:34] <yao_ziyuan> the case for openoffice is special.
[22:35] <yao_ziyuan> openoffice 3.0.0 running under kde4 will only detect the environment as kde3,
[22:35] <yao_ziyuan> and will use the current kde3/qt3 style.
[22:35] <yao_ziyuan> so unless you download and install the latest qtcurve/kde3, you won't get the latest qtcurve look and feel in ooo 3.0.0.
[22:38] <yao_ziyuan> can anyone with kde3 help me comple and make a deb package for qtcuve/kde3 at http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=40492 ?
[22:38] <ScottK> This is because the OOo KDE support hasn't been ported to KDE4 yet.
[22:38] <yao_ziyuan> kubuntu 8.10 doesn't provide kde3/qt3 dev packages
[22:38] <yao_ziyuan> how do i get these dev packages now?
[22:41] <Riddell> kdelibs4-dev
[22:41] <yao_ziyuan> ..
[22:42] <jussi01> !info kdelibs4-dev
[22:42] <yao_ziyuan> but that will remove kdelibs5-dev...
[22:42] <ScottK> Yes,  the -dev packages aren't co-installable.
[22:43] <yao_ziyuan> i'd just leave ooo alone.
[22:43] <ScottK> Good plan.
[22:43] <yao_ziyuan> can anyone update kde-style-qtcurve ?
[22:45] <yao_ziyuan> running ooo is disastrous
[22:45] <yao_ziyuan> it will automatically set my current kde4 style to Oxygen
[22:46] <yao_ziyuan> how do i trick ooo into believing it's running in gnome?
[22:48] <shtylman> huh?
[22:49] <yao_ziyuan> because if ooo believes it's running in kde 3 then it will do harms
[22:49] <yao_ziyuan> such as resetting my current kde4 style back to Oxygen
[22:49] <shtylman> I have no problem running ooo
[22:49] <shtylman> ahh I see
[22:49] <yao_ziyuan> shtylman: you're using Oxygen?
[22:49] <yao_ziyuan> Oxygen the kstyle.
[22:49] <shtylman> yea...that is why
[22:50] <yao_ziyuan> so i want to fool ooo to believe it's running in gnome
[22:53] <yao_ziyuan> $KDE_FULL_SESSION
[22:59]  * jussi01 is happy, just fixed all my sound issues... Pulse was installed...
[22:59] <jussi01> so I removed it, and everything works again
[23:00] <claydoh> yao_ziyuan: uninstall openoffice.org-kde package
[23:00] <claydoh> that will remove the kde integration bit
[23:01] <yao_ziyuan> wow
[23:02] <yao_ziyuan> there is no such package for ooo 3.0.0
[23:02] <yao_ziyuan> all there is:
[23:03] <yao_ziyuan> http://pastebin.com/ma77006d
[23:09] <yao_ziyuan> soon i realized even if i compiled qtcurve/kde3,
[23:09] <yao_ziyuan> and ooo 3.0.0 can use it
[23:10] <yao_ziyuan> ooo will still abduct my current kde4 style
[23:11] <maco> kde does weird things
[23:11] <yao_ziyuan> no, it's ooo's fault
[23:11] <yao_ziyuan> only if i can fool ooo into believing it's running in gnome...
[23:12] <maco> not talking about ooo
[23:12] <maco> talking about the fact that i plugged in my power adapter and everything disappeared, showing just the wallpaper...no windows, panels or anything
[23:12] <maco> then after about 5 seconds, it brought he desktop back
[23:12] <yao_ziyuan> kde is fragile
[23:13] <ghostcube> kde is a diva :P
[23:13] <yao_ziyuan> kde developers are artists but not logicians
[23:15] <yao_ziyuan> maybe i should try ooo brought by ubuntu
[23:15] <yao_ziyuan> so i can remove the kde integration
[23:18] <Riddell> shtylman: tried the gnome version http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity-gnome.png
[23:18] <Riddell> shtylman: it only shows the current disk selected so there's only every two bars on the screen at the same time
[23:19] <ghostcube> hmm anyone tested the new nvidia drivers ?
[23:19] <Riddell> top bar is before and bottom bar is after.  there's no labels so it's not clear which is which and I don't get why radio buttons appear between the two
[23:20] <Riddell> shtylman: also there's that notice about which OS you're replacing which I don't think we have
[23:21] <Riddell> shtylman: same on the manual partitioning page, it only shows a bar for the one you've currently selected
[23:22] <ScottK-palm> Stickers arrived here today too.  Thanks sabdfl.
[23:32] <nhandler> Was it jono who was looking for some stickers for his laptop? If so, we should send him a few Kubuntu stickers
[23:33] <maco> yes he was
[23:43] <yao_ziyuan> just installed openoffice.org 2.4 from ubuntu repository
[23:43] <yao_ziyuan> and openoffice.org-style-crystal
[23:43] <ghostcube> wow
[23:43] <yao_ziyuan> it doesn't hijack my current kde4 style any more
[23:43] <ghostcube> 180.29 is cool
[23:44] <ghostcube> cool this new driver fixes the rdraw errors on nvidia and compiz loose-binding as it seems
[23:44] <ghostcube> :D