| Keybuk | quest procwatch% sudo ./forkwatch | 01:26 |
|---|---|---|
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19414 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19415 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19416 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19417 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19418 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | 1 -> 19419 | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | ... | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | why does the kernel keep spawning things | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | (at least I assume it's the kernel and not init :p) | 01:26 |
| Keybuk | hmm, something to do with threads | 01:38 |
| Keybuk | 1/1 -> 20348/6513 | 01:41 |
| Keybuk | 'evolution --component=mail ' | 01:41 |
| Keybuk | 1/1 -> 20349/6506 | 01:41 |
| Keybuk | '/usr/lib/firefox-3.0.6/firefox ' | 01:41 |
| Keybuk | ah | 01:44 |
| Keybuk | I'm being stupid | 01:44 |
| Keybuk | if you clone() to make a new thread, the new thread shares the same parent as the old one | 01:44 |
| Keybuk | firefox and evo's parents are init | 01:44 |
| Keybuk | so a new thread will also have a parent as init | 01:44 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Oops | 01:45 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: don't laugh :p | 01:47 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: I spent half of today trying to debug something before realising that I'd stubbed out the functionality last month | 01:48 |
| Keybuk | d'oh | 01:52 |
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| Laibsch | I'm sure DKMS is nice and all, but I wonder if we're not going to see Ubuntu-supplied kernel modules as a separate package anytime soon (compiled with the help of dkms, I suppose) | 12:35 |
| Laibsch | I hope this is on-topic here, if not suggest a better channel, please | 12:36 |
| soren | Laibsch: I don't think I understand what you're saying. | 12:36 |
| Laibsch | Alright, I'll retry | 12:36 |
| Laibsch | virtualbox has a module. that module used to ship in a separate package, but was available for ubuntu supplied kernels | 12:37 |
| Laibsch | That is not the case anymore. I have to install dmks, linux-headers, lots of dev-packages and lots of other stuff pulled in by virtualbox-ose-source these days to compile the module myself | 12:38 |
| soren | Yes. | 12:38 |
| Laibsch | I wonder if ubuntu couldn't handle packaging that module (probably with the help of dkms) so everybody (including me) doesn't have to do that | 12:39 |
| Laibsch | Right now, I don't see any obvious reason it couldn't be done | 12:39 |
| soren | On the other hand, you'll never more upgrade your kernel and suddenly have virtualbox not working because noone bothered to upload a new virtualbox-modules-2.6.xx-newabi-foobar package and go through the whole process of getting it accepted, through the various queues and stuff. | 12:39 |
| Laibsch | I'm here to understand the situation | 12:39 |
| soren | ...which is exactly the problem dkms solves. | 12:40 |
| Laibsch | OK | 12:40 |
| Laibsch | But it still is inconvenient | 12:40 |
| Laibsch | I'm wondering if a PPA might help? | 12:40 |
| soren | How is it inconvenient? | 12:40 |
| soren | It's all automatic. | 12:40 |
| Laibsch | But I don't think dkms works in a PPA environment | 12:40 |
| soren | What do you mean+ | 12:41 |
| soren | ? | 12:41 |
| soren | dkms runs on the target system, not on the buildd's. | 12:41 |
| IntuitiveNipple | I put DMS packages in my PPA | 12:41 |
| Laibsch | Yes, that is what I was basically saying | 12:41 |
| IntuitiveNipple | s/DMS/DKMS/ | 12:41 |
| Laibsch | soren: I think the previous situation was preferable, at least speaking from my POV | 12:42 |
| soren | IntuitiveNipple: You mean packages that actually run dkms on the buildd's or just a package that uses dkms when it's installed in the final system? | 12:42 |
| soren | Laibsch: Why? | 12:42 |
| soren | Laibsch: How is it inconvenient? It's /automatic/. | 12:42 |
| IntuitiveNipple | soren: Just regular DKMS packages... built on the target client | 12:42 |
| soren | IntuitiveNipple: Right, there's no reason that wouldn't work. They're regular packages. | 12:43 |
| IntuitiveNipple | I wrote a tutorial on how to do the packaging, if it would help | 12:43 |
| soren | IntuitiveNipple: We're not discussing how to create packages that use dkms. | 12:43 |
| IntuitiveNipple | ahh, sorry. | 12:43 |
| Laibsch | soren: i don't like all the packages pulled in. You may have a fat HD, unlimited bandwidth and whatnot, I may not. I just see the sources and all the associated things on my system as cruft. If I wanted LFS, I'd go gentoo. | 12:43 |
| Laibsch | It's basically the same reason I use Ubuntu over Gentoo. In that sense, I'm a binary-type-of-guy | 12:45 |
| Laibsch | I hope that makes sense | 12:45 |
| soren | dkms solves a very real problem: | 12:45 |
| Laibsch | I'm not disputing that | 12:45 |
| soren | We have lots of kernel modules that are built outside the kernel, but needs to be in sync with the kernel. | 12:46 |
| soren | During development, this is not all that bad, but if, after release, a security problem comes up that requires us to bump the ABI, there are a few options: | 12:46 |
| soren | a) Don't install the updated kernel until someone else has taken care of updating *all* the other packages. | 12:47 |
| soren | b) Install the new kernel and lose the functionality provided by the other packages. | 12:47 |
| soren | Neither is very useful. | 12:47 |
| Laibsch | Understood, if the kernel team itself can't handle *all* out-of-source kernel modules, fine | 12:48 |
| soren | They can't, and shouldn't. | 12:48 |
| soren | What if you have an extra module from a PPA? | 12:48 |
| Laibsch | I'm wondering if there isn't a way to make dkms one more step | 12:48 |
| Laibsch | source -> binary -> package | 12:48 |
| Laibsch | dkms stops at dkms AFAIK | 12:49 |
| soren | Again: How about the packages you get from a PPA? | 12:49 |
| Laibsch | I want package ;-D | 12:49 |
| Laibsch | soren: what do you mean? what about them? | 12:49 |
| soren | Laibsch: They will obviously not be rebuilt by the kernel team or anything else automatic. Only your system knows that the package even exists. | 12:49 |
| soren | ...so you end up having to choose be between the two options I mentioned a few minutes ago. | 12:50 |
| Laibsch | I'm not following you | 12:50 |
| Laibsch | Let's concentrate on virtualbox for a minute | 12:50 |
| Laibsch | so things are clearer (at least for me) | 12:50 |
| soren | Ok. | 12:50 |
| soren | So, say you wanted a more up-to-date version of virtualbox than is in the archive, and you go and install it from a PPA. | 12:51 |
| Laibsch | That is also the case I'm most interested in, I don't use proprietary drivers, for example | 12:51 |
| Laibsch | no, that is not what this is about | 12:51 |
| soren | Says who? | 12:51 |
| soren | It's my example :) | 12:51 |
| Laibsch | Ubuntu vbox and Ubuntu kernel | 12:51 |
| soren | Ok, then. | 12:52 |
| Laibsch | Let's not make things complicated before I understand the basics fully | 12:52 |
| soren | Ok. | 12:52 |
| Laibsch | Situation before dkms: ubuntu provides package | 12:52 |
| soren | So, say you have linux-image-2.6.27-22-generic installed and virtualbox-modules-2.6.27-22-generic as well. | 12:52 |
| soren | Both from the archive. | 12:52 |
| Laibsch | after dkms: ubuntu provides source and automatic system for user to compile binary | 12:52 |
| soren | Note: Virtualbox is in universe. | 12:53 |
| soren | A security problem comes up that forces us to update the kernel in a way that breaks the ABI. | 12:53 |
| soren | So, to be safe from whatever was the security problem, you need linux-image-2.6.27-23-generic. | 12:53 |
| Laibsch | OK | 12:53 |
| soren | ...but since it's not the kernel team that maintains virtualbox-modules, it might take hours, days, or weeks before there's a virtualbox-modules-2.6.27-23-generic. | 12:54 |
| Laibsch | virtualbox-modules-2.6.27-22-generic isn't currently available, right? It's just to illustrate your point, do I understand correctly? | 12:54 |
| soren | Right, these are made up version numbers. | 12:54 |
| Laibsch | Yes, and that is where my PPA suggestion came in | 12:54 |
| soren | Oh, no. | 12:55 |
| Laibsch | Why not? | 12:55 |
| soren | If I don't get to talk about PPA's, neither do you :) | 12:55 |
| Laibsch | I for one would prefer that over the current solution | 12:55 |
| Laibsch | Be serious now, will you ;-) | 12:55 |
| soren | So, during the time between linux-image-2.6.27-23-generic comes out and virtualbox-modules-2.6.27-23-generic comes out, you can choose between being safe or having virtualbox. | 12:55 |
| Laibsch | Yes | 12:56 |
| Laibsch | I'd be OK with that | 12:56 |
| soren | Right, because virtualbox is not a critical function to you, or you don't care about security. | 12:56 |
| Laibsch | Given that the recompilation is automatic | 12:56 |
| soren | Eh? | 12:56 |
| * amitk thinks Laibsch is misunderstanding how PPAs work | 12:57 | |
| Laibsch | Given that the recompilation is automatic it shouldn't take a dedicated team too long to update their modules packaegs | 12:57 |
| Laibsch | amitk: I think I do | 12:57 |
| soren | But it's not automatic! | 12:57 |
| Laibsch | I'm not a DKMS expert, though | 12:57 |
| soren | That's why we added dkms to /make/ it automatic. | 12:57 |
| Laibsch | yes, dkms is a good thing -> see my first sentence in this channel | 12:57 |
| amitk | Laibsch: someone has to upload a _new_ version of vbox to the PPA to make a new version available to you | 12:58 |
| amitk | it is not automatic, it brings us back to the original problem | 12:58 |
| Laibsch | What I don't think is so great is that currently things stop at the very first step in "source -> binary -> package" | 12:58 |
| soren | Laibsch: Your first sentence in this channel was the one I completely didn't understand. At all. | 12:58 |
| Laibsch | I'm wondering if it isn't possible to officially or inofficially continue to ship modules (can be a subset of those depending on dkms currently) | 12:59 |
| amitk | soren: Laibsch doesn't like things being compiled on his machine. He wants it to be available _automatically_ through PPAs | 12:59 |
| Laibsch | soren: vbox has to be rebuilt? I think that isn't ture | 12:59 |
| Laibsch | true | 12:59 |
| Laibsch | It's the module that needs to be rebuilt | 13:00 |
| Laibsch | amitk: yes | 13:00 |
| Laibsch | thanks for clarifying | 13:00 |
| soren | Laibsch: Of course. I didn't mean to discuss userspace at all. | 13:00 |
| Laibsch | PPAs, or some other official or inofficial channel | 13:00 |
| soren | Laibsch: Well, you're free to set something like that up. | 13:00 |
| Laibsch | I'm willing to put some work into that | 13:01 |
| Laibsch | But I need help | 13:01 |
| Laibsch | help and guidance with what dkms does and how it works | 13:01 |
| soren | Then you need to find someone who /can/ and who also thinks it's useful. I'm only in one of those categories :) | 13:01 |
| amitk | soren: Laibsch: something like this - a new kernel upload (abi bumper) should automatically trigger a rebuild of all dkms packages in the archive and make their binary .debs available. | 13:01 |
| soren | amitk: That seems to be the stated goal. | 13:02 |
| Laibsch | amitk: Yes, that is what I'm looking for. I think currently, it isn't done, or is it? | 13:02 |
| amitk | Laibsch: currently it can't be done | 13:02 |
| soren | It all means that the time from known vulnerability to patched system is longer. | 13:02 |
| Laibsch | amitk: because dkms doesn't do it and there is nothing else, right? | 13:03 |
| Laibsch | I wonder how complicated it would be to either extend dkms to also churn out packages or wrap something around dkms like is done with pbuilder and friends | 13:03 |
| amitk | dependencies handling in external kernel modules, automatic trigger support, package naming issues, | 13:04 |
| soren | Laibsch: Are you familiar with module-assistant? | 13:04 |
| amitk | and several other issues wil have to be solved. You should probably check on #ubuntu-devel for experts on this sort of thing. | 13:04 |
| soren | Laibsch: It's how some packages used to do this. It builds packages that you can install, but it can't be run automatically for various reasons. | 13:05 |
| Laibsch | soren: I used to run m-a a few times in the past | 13:05 |
| Laibsch | I wouldn't call myself familiar with it | 13:05 |
| Laibsch | BTW, this isn't really automatic | 13:12 |
| Laibsch | Error! Could not locate vboxnetflt.ko for module vboxnetflt in the DKMS tree. | 13:12 |
| Laibsch | You must run a dkms build for kernel 2.6.28-2-386 (i686) first. | 13:12 |
| Laibsch | Whatever that means, I hope google will tell me | 13:13 |
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| apw | jbuncher, cool. this a kernel issue, so we might as well have it here, #u-bugs is not really the right venue | 16:04 |
| * apw goes look at the 2.6.24.4 build logs | 16:04 | |
| apw | jbuncher, could you confirm the /proc/version string from the .4 version | 16:06 |
| jbuncher | apw: I just rebooted, hang on | 16:07 |
| jbuncher | apw: "Linux version 2.6.24-02062404-generic (root@zinc) etc etc" | 16:14 |
| jbuncher | apw: I have not been installing the headers, btw. | 16:23 |
| apw | jbuncher, yeah no worries if you'd needed them you would know by now | 16:24 |
| apw | seems that iwl has moved to l-u-m, will try and work out what to do to test this next | 16:25 |
| jbuncher | apw: l-u-m = linux-ubuntu-modules? | 16:25 |
| apw | yeah | 16:26 |
| apw | of course there isn't one of those for a mainline kernel | 16:26 |
| apw | so ... we need anything 'moved' there turned on in mainliine builds | 16:26 |
| apw | not somethign thats trivial to detect automagically | 16:26 |
| apw | a royal pain | 16:27 |
| jbuncher | should I just enable "Intel Wireless WiFi Link Drivers" in the kernel config? | 16:28 |
| jbuncher | or would that not work (e.g., if the source ot make those modules has been physically removed from the source debs you posted) | 16:30 |
| apw | they are in there. | 16:30 |
| apw | i was jsut going to try a rebuild of the .4 with that enabled | 16:30 |
| apw | need to figure out how to do this in a safe manner | 16:31 |
| jbuncher | apw: what would the "danger" be? | 16:31 |
| apw | the problem is how do i reenable it in such a way that each time i build a new .24.N build | 16:32 |
| apw | it will happen right and automatically without intervention | 16:32 |
| jbuncher | ok | 16:36 |
| apw | give me a couple of mins to think on it | 16:37 |
| jbuncher | sure thing | 16:37 |
| apw | jbuncher, ok i think i have something workable. am rebuilding the .24.4 now, will let you know when its done so you can test before i rebuild and others | 16:56 |
| jbuncher | ok | 16:58 |
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| apw | sadly it will take somewhat over an hour so no holding of breath | 16:59 |
| jbuncher | apw: you don't happen to know of a tool that scans your hardware and then auto-configs a kernel, so you don't have to build modules for stuff you don't have/use, do you? | 17:03 |
| apw | jbuncher, nope, that would be nice. i bought some bigger build engines to get round that issue | 17:04 |
| jbuncher | nice | 17:04 |
| IntuitiveNipple | I saw something that does exactly that last week... let me see if I can remember what it was | 17:08 |
| apw | easier than waiting for godot | 17:09 |
| apw | IntuitiveNipple, intresting | 17:09 |
| apw | just when i've stopped being allowed to make small kernels :( | 17:09 |
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| IntuitiveNipple | Trouble is, when you're visiting tons of search-engine hits a day, it's hard to remember when or where :) | 17:10 |
| apw | Keybuk, the work you are doing with netlink, does that make the work on pselect et al for arm less urgent? | 18:01 |
| apw | jbuncher, ok the 2.6.24.4 is rebuilt if you could test that sometime | 18:05 |
| jbuncher | apw: alright, I need to head to work and get some lunch, but I should be able to get to it this afternoon. Is it on the same page as before? | 18:06 |
| apw | jbuncher, yep replaced the originals with some with iwl stuff turned on i hope | 18:07 |
| apw | if you could report back in the bug too that would help me keep track | 18:07 |
| jbuncher | apw: sure thing, thanks again for all your work. | 18:07 |
| apw | no problem, be nice to get that one nailed | 18:08 |
| mgolisch | anyone here? | 18:32 |
| mgolisch | which dump facilities does ubuntu provide? | 18:32 |
| Keybuk | apw: no, it has nothing to do with udev | 18:37 |
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| jbuncher | apw: Success on both counts. The .4 recognized my wireless card, as well as being able to connect to the wireless. I'm posting in the bug thread now | 19:36 |
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| apw | jbuncher, i will re-build the remainder and let you know when they are done | 23:09 |
| mgolisch | crash dump facilities in ubuntu kernels? | 23:27 |
| mgolisch | anyone? | 23:28 |
| apw | i think crash dumping is a jaunty goal | 23:32 |
| mgolisch | i wonder why its not there yet | 23:35 |
| mgolisch | for example ubuntu ships the crash tool for debuging crashdumps since ages | 23:35 |
| mgolisch | i allways wondered why there is no crashdump stuff | 23:35 |
| mgolisch | i mean srsrrly they try to do server stuff, i wouldnt want a server without the ability to get dumps of kernelpanics | 23:36 |
| mgolisch | enough ranting :) ill wait for the next release then | 23:37 |
| mgolisch | :) | 23:37 |
| apw | i would't take my word for it, i know some stuff is going on in that space for jaunty | 23:38 |
| apw | it may be workable if you have the recipe on server | 23:38 |
| apw | mgolisch, have you asked on #ubuntu-server ? they would have the definative answeer | 23:39 |
| mgolisch | ill try that | 23:39 |
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