=== Andre_Gondim is now known as Andre_Gondim-afk === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === mvo__ is now known as mvo === boffire is now known as ButterflyOfFire === Lure_ is now known as Lure === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak === JanC_ is now known as JanC === mvo__ is now known as mvo === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak === Andre_Gondim is now known as Andre_Gondim-afk [15:56] * james_w waves [15:57] * liw waves in 180 seconds [15:59] hi [15:59] #startmeeting [15:59] Meeting started at 09:59. The chair is robbiew. [15:59] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [15:59] hi [16:00] Hey folks. [16:00] hello [16:00] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0225#Agenda [16:00] LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0225#Agenda [16:01] afternoon [16:01] doko: evand: james_w: liw: slangasek: Keybuk: joining? [16:02] no, I thought I'd sit this one out ... ;) [16:02] heh [16:02] we have an option? [16:02] robbiew, "* liw waves in 180 seconds" before you joined :) [16:02] you joined after I said hi :) [16:02] here [16:02] ah [16:02] liw: evand: apologies [16:02] it's like at school [16:02] when you're sitting at the back of the class [16:02] and the teacher doesn't notice you're there [16:02] * robbiew had last minute agenda hacking to do [16:02] no worries [16:03] [TOPIC] Jaunty Alpha 5 [16:03] New Topic: Jaunty Alpha 5 [16:04] http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone:Alist=2213 [16:04] LINK received: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone:Alist=2213 [16:04] I will need to push mine back to alpha-6 [16:04] 3 bugs...not mad [16:04] mvo_: heh, figured that...with your update manager work :) [16:05] yeah, I also need to figure out how to setup such a system to actually test the change :) [16:05] ec2? [16:05] joking [16:05] lol [16:06] its the anther to all possible questions (plus three more): ec2! [16:07] anyone else have major Alpha 5 stuff? [16:07] code drops that could break everything [16:07] :P [16:07] I'm queuing mine for Friday [16:07] alpha 5 has needed a bit of late work due to hal blowing up [16:07] sound kind of didn't [16:08] pitti was on that earlier today, so I think everything should be in place RSN [16:08] cjwatson: sound kind of didn't blow up you mean? [16:08] or that :) [16:08] but I meant sound kind of didn't sound [16:08] oh [16:09] * TheMuso hasn't fetched updates yet, so has no idea of what could be going on yet [16:09] it was a side-effect of the smbios work in hal [16:09] AIUI, anyway, I haven't looked into it since pitti was on top of it [16:09] ah ok [16:09] apparently it's building or being published now [16:10] * TheMuso will read changes [16:10] I took the opportunity to respin d-i since ogra was asking for that; apparently they're under a lot of pressure to deliver something that basically works for a5, and there was a kernel upload after the last d-i upload [16:11] anything else? [16:11] [TOPIC] Jaunty Feature Status [16:11] New Topic: Jaunty Feature Status [16:12] not much to really cover here [16:12] everything looks in pretty good shape [16:12] slangasek: here, regarding those last couple of specs? [16:13] * james_w is waiting on final approval for his specs, but they look in good shape for that, so I'm not particularly blocked [16:13] yeah...those are the ones I wanted to chat about [16:13] * robbiew will have to cover in our 1-to-1 later today [16:14] cjwatson: he reported that the grub2 spec is ready for approval [16:14] liw: any updates on the package licensing stuff? [16:14] ok, please poke me explicitly if there's anything else that's waiting on me [16:14] and I will make sure it gets done [16:14] ok [16:14] robbiew, I have a first draft of the API, based on the spec in the Debian wiki, and I'm looking for someone from OEM to discuss the API with [16:14] * evand would like to land a new Wubi and umenu, which we're tracking in bug 334244 [16:14] Launchpad bug 334244 in wubi "[FFe] Accept new python-based Wubi for 9.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/334244 [16:15] robbiew, the spec itself is slangasek's, I think [16:15] cjwatson, I was under the impression I was waiting for you on one, is that correct? [16:15] liw: ok [16:15] * robbiew looks for the OEM contact [16:15] james_w: so you are. queued [16:16] thanks cjwatson [16:16] evand: were you just giving status or making a request? :) [16:17] giving status, slangasek is already aware of it [16:18] ah, ok [16:18] fyi [16:18] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Jaunty#Feature Status [16:18] LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Jaunty#Feature Status [16:18] also tracking Release bugs there [16:18] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Jaunty#RC Bugs [16:18] LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Jaunty#RC Bugs [16:18] we're using this as input for the weekly release meeting [16:19] my ultimate plan is for every platform team to have one, should help slangasek move the meeting along faster [16:20] moving on [16:20] http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs [16:20] LINK received: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs [16:20] 88 bugs here [16:21] ohh, wait, before going on with the python2.6 move, I'd like to ask here about it ... [16:21] ah [16:21] yes [16:21] I did remove python2.5 on my laptop [16:22] and? did it go to hell in a hand basket? [16:22] :) [16:22] works fine (or I don't use python) [16:23] doko: you are considering that for Jaunty? [16:23] james_w: yes [16:23] seems odd to make 2.6 the only version in the same release it is introduced [16:23] or have I misunderstood? [16:23] james_w: no, just switching the default, not dropping 2.5 [16:24] why would that be odd? [16:24] doko: ah, that seems fine [16:24] james_w: would have 3.0, 2.5, and 2.6...with 2.6 by default [16:24] :) [16:24] liw: I was just thinking it would force developers to port their own code to 2.6 with no real alternative when upgrading, not that it's too much work [16:25] the proposed solution sounds fine to me [16:25] cjwatson: I would like to see us to "support" something as a build-dependency, but not as a dependency (then we could get rid of the discussion about demoting non-default python versions= [16:25] doko: we can do that, we just have no way to indicate it to users [16:26] doko: we can't do any better until after archivereorganisation (second phase) [16:26] i.e. it still has to stay in main [16:27] my guess is that the biggest practical problem in terms of number of programs affected is the removal of string exceptions [16:27] remind me when that was deprecated? [16:27] http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/2.6.html#porting-to-python-2-6 [16:27] LINK received: http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/2.6.html#porting-to-python-2-6 [16:27] yes, pitti got bitten by this [16:28] cjwatson, 2.0? [16:28] but realistically, we have to switch the default at some point, and people running code in production should be testing first ... I'm OK as long as we can be reasonably confident we've ported everything in Ubuntu [16:28] (or at least everything anyone might care about) [16:29] ah now, string exceptions were depreceatd only in 2.5 [16:30] do you find out about that at compile time, or just when you hit the exception? [16:30] I think they've been disrecommended since I started using Python (so, er, 2.2 or 2.3?) [16:30] I remember them being disrecommended since 2.0, but I might be wrong [16:30] james_w, given that Python is a dynamically typed language, at run time I'm pretty sure [16:31] which is not ideal [16:31] doko: Keybuk: do you want to discuss the i486 versus i586/i686 arch support here? For boot performance [16:32] I maintain a couple of packages that use python/have python bindings. What do I have to do to switch them to 2.6, since it doesn't seem they were touched in doko's mass uploads. [16:32] robbiew: if you like [16:32] * robbiew waits for a response to question from TheMuso [16:32] sorry I should check the email on devel about what needs changing, will check there [16:33] ok === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [16:33] TheMuso: which one's, are these in the PPA? https://edge.launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/ppa [16:33] doko: Haven't looked there, I'd have to check. The ones in question are gnome-orca and brltty [16:34] [TOPIC] Switching to i586/i686 arch support [16:34] New Topic: Switching to i586/i686 arch support [16:34] I think we should switch to -march=i686 [16:34] please review earlier UDS discussions on this subject [16:34] brltty is fixed in the PPA, looks like I missed the orca. [16:35] cjwatson: do you have a URL? [16:35] not offhand, I'm looking [16:35] TheMuso: will update gnome-orca after the meeting [16:35] doko: ok [16:36] cjwatson: ok, we can review the UDS stuff and cover this next week...or by email [16:36] doko: if you mass upload packages, could you please respect packages maintained in bzr? [16:36] this is a very old discussion and there are serious consequences elsewhere [16:36] Keybuk: I'm all for it, because everybody else builds for this. which cpu's would be loose? [16:36] doko: anything older than a pentium 2 [16:36] but then we have lpia now [16:36] the mobile team wants to ditch lpia [16:36] and lpia was designed for newer architectures not older, anyway [16:37] are there really that many people still using Ubuntu on < i686 ? [16:37] mvo_: I'll try to, and send bug reports about it. but I would like to keep the hours of breakage short [16:37] also, it's not just a linear axis - the various clones have different properties [16:37] and do we care more about them than the utter vast majority using i686 hardware [16:37] consider the Via C3 [16:37] "care more" is a vast, and tendentious, simplificationa [16:37] -a [16:37] cjwatson: if the Via C3 doesn't work with i686, then it doesn't work with Fedora, RHEL, SuSE, SLE, SLED, SLES, etc. already right? [16:38] it's the difference between supporting something with a slight performance difference, and not supporting something at all [16:38] doko: I'm happy to help you with this, its just a pain to merge this stuff in retrospect. a quick mail to e.g. ubuntu-devel is enough [16:38] Keybuk: Fedora has an i586 kernel [16:38] so I assume that they have at least some i586 userspace support [16:38] cjwatson: Fedora build all their packages -march=i686 [16:38] do they require cmov support? [16:38] cjwatson: how would I tell trivially? [16:38] Keybuk: in any case, we shouldn't even be having this discussion without real numbers [16:38] mvo_: fine, please have some time on Friday =) [16:38] Keybuk: I have no idea, you're the proponent :-) [16:39] cjwatson: well, we benchmark consistently slower than them [16:39] at most common operations [16:39] Keybuk: did you try to rebuild you stuff with -march=i686 to validate? [16:39] I want to know what happens if we rebuild for i686 and then try to boot [16:39] doko: this friday? [16:39] mvo_: yes [16:39] doko: not yet, I was actually going to ask you how I'd do that [16:40] I thought it'd be an interesting experiment to build an i686 cd and compare the two [16:40] CFLAGS+=-march=i686 [16:40] doko: it'd be much easier if I could do it in a semi-automated fashion :p [16:40] rather than by-hand rebuilding every single package :D [16:40] IME, many of the lower-powered clone CPUs are used in embedded devices [16:41] ahh, ok the whole CD ... yes, maybe I'll give you a gcc build, or kess can give you just another wrapper [16:41] cjwatson: Atom supports i686 just fine [16:41] Atom is really very new, by comparison [16:41] doko: I reply later, I don't want to interfere with the ongoing discussion [16:41] via c7 as well [16:41] sorry [16:42] * robbiew recommends we move this discussion to ubuntu-devel [16:42] and I don't think that Fedora (and family) and SuSE (and family) are our only competitors; they are our most significant Linux-based desktop/laptop/server competitors [16:42] slangasek: no worries...we just gave you all the Actions (j/k) :P [16:42] . o O (making it easy to do large-scale changes would allow much more experimentation on Ubuntu) [16:42] but having a new architecture doesn't seem to be too good as well ... [16:43] Fedora appears to have an i586 architecture [16:43] we know, unfortunately, how much work a new architecture is [16:43] (the answer is: lots) [16:44] cjwatson: Fedora have an i386 architecture as well [16:44] so it is not true to say that the older C3s don't work with Fedora [16:44] (which you said above) [16:45] cjwatson: I actually can't find i586 or even i386 builds for F11 right now [16:45] openjdk is built with -march=i586 ... [16:45] I can never find anything in Fedora :-) [16:47] anyway, I'll go and play and build an i686 CD [16:47] and then I'll make some benchmarks [16:47] and then if it's no better, I'll shut up ;P [16:47] heh...ok [16:47] [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue [16:47] New Topic: Sponsorship Queue [16:47] as long as cjwatson promises that if there's a significant difference ... :p [16:47] I make no promises :) [16:47] I'll take your coffee away [16:48] or, worse, I'll secretly replace all your beans with decaf [16:48] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ [16:48] LINK received: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ [16:48] * cjwatson begs for mercy [16:48] I have done gparted this week, which took way longer than I had hoped [16:49] too bad there's no way to see who is the "sponsor" from this list...unless they made the last comment [16:50] k...moving on [16:51] [TOPIC] All hands CFP [16:51] New Topic: All hands CFP [16:51] I'm sure cjwatson cares DEEPLY about this topic ;) [16:52] heh, yes, I got nominated as the engineering track lead [16:52] voluntold [16:52] https://wiki.canonical.com/AllHands/2009/InsideView might be interesting to people [16:53] hmm, still time to submit topics? [16:53] I plan to make some suggestions, but please do get yours in first [16:53] doko: yes [16:53] yes, the deadline is 1200 UTC 9 March [16:53] plenty of time [16:53] I've suggested a topic already [16:53] james_w: so you can wow people with a bzr talk [16:54] if you don't want to do a full 40-minute (or whatever it is) presentation, we're happy to consider lightning talks [16:54] and I'm sure Keybuk can dust off a boot performance talk, heh [16:54] evand: maybe a wubi overview...lots of folks don't know about it's coolness :P [16:54] sure [16:55] sure, if people think that will be useful I can talk a bit about how it works. [16:55] hey hey [16:55] and don't worry, yours truly is on the hook to present *something* for the Skills development track [16:55] * TheMuso has been pondering something accessibility wise, but can't think of something concrete to talk about. :) [16:55] I've put in a "history of the installer" proposal [16:56] hello [16:56] in the beginning there was the boot-floppy [16:56] * robbiew sees we have 4 min left [16:56] and it was ugly [16:56] are 40min enough if this includes the debian installer? ;) [16:56] TheMuso, "this is how you enable accessibility on your desktop, and how you use it, so that you can make sure your stuff works for me"? [16:56] slangasek: and Bruce said: let there be floppies; and floppies appeared; ethereal, first of things, quintessence pure [16:56] liw: This is what I mean, something more concrete and informative than that. [16:56] slangasek, not ugly! it's not ugly to edit root fs location to offsets 508 and 509 in a hex editor! [16:57] #endmeeting [16:57] Meeting finished at 10:57. [16:57] lol [16:57] thanks [16:57] gracias [16:57] I have to join another meeting guys...thanks for joining [16:57] thanks! [16:57] thanks [16:57] thanks [16:58] liw: I was referring to boot-floppies, the installer - that's ugly :-) [16:58] thanks, all [17:01] hey all [17:01] * ogasawara waves [17:01] * ara waves [17:01] hello [17:01] hi! [17:02] howdy [17:02] hi [17:02] hi [17:02] ogasawara, sbeattie: here? [17:02] hey [17:03] pedro is on leave [17:03] * ogasawara is here [17:03] (at the beach!) [17:03] .o/ [17:03] #startmeeting [17:03] Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is heno. [17:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:04] welcome everyone :) [17:04] we have an action-packed agenda today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings [17:05] [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights [17:05] New Topic: UbuntuBugDay highlights [17:05] pedro normally reports on this - can someone else fill us in? [17:05] I have stats! [17:05] http://daniel.holba.ch/five-a-day-stats/ [17:05] LINK received: http://daniel.holba.ch/five-a-day-stats/ [17:06] so about half the teams involved reported, touching over 1,510 bugs [17:06] last year we touched ~800 or so bugs [17:06] so almost double [17:06] jcastro: that's the GBJ stats right? [17:06] yep [17:06] GBJ only [17:06] oh wait, my bad, I mixed up hugday with GBJ, sorry heno [17:06] ok, np :) [17:08] jcastro: that's great and from the stories it sounds like people had a lot of fun right? [17:08] http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/02/24/ubuntu-global-bug-jam-success/?replytocom=129967#respond [17:08] LINK received: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/02/24/ubuntu-global-bug-jam-success/?replytocom=129967#respond [17:08] yep, we consider it a great success [17:09] awesome! ;-) [17:09] yeah it seems to have gone well :) [17:10] The one thing I think we could do better in the future is to let lp admins know about it more [17:10] I met several new triagers at the Birmingham Jam who will hopefully keep at it [17:10] there were some LP issues during the jam, getting slow, etc. The stats were pretty broken for most of it but that's being fixed. [17:11] heno: Yeah the guys there on Friday were mostly new and got right into it :) [17:11] jcastro: will there be a lessons-learned follow-up session? [17:13] just to wrap up the bug _day_ report: last week was nm-applet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090219 [17:13] mangilimic and others put in a solid effort there [17:13] We also had some new triagers which is great! [17:14] tomorrow is apport crashes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090226 [17:14] heno: yeah we're gathering information still [17:14] Additionally, identifying the bugs with patches went well and a lot of them have been fixed now. [17:14] bdmurray: maybe a blog post saying with bug jam over it doesn't stop there :) [17:14] bdmurray: that's excellent! [17:14] jcastro: ok great [17:15] [TOPIC] Launchpad Greasemonkey - shared stock replies [17:15] New Topic: Launchpad Greasemonkey - shared stock replies [17:16] There is a now a shared xml file of standard responses used by lp_stockreplies [17:16] You can learn a bit more about it at http://www.murraytwins.com/blog/?p=34 [17:17] The shared responses make it easier to use the greasemonkey script and can make triaging easier. [17:18] great - are the QA tools listed in the bug jam docs? [17:18] jcastro: ? [17:19] I introduced the group in Birmingham to them [17:20] it's probably worth mentioning these at hug days too, along with hug day tools [17:21] (is that in the package btw?) [17:21] heno: hug-day tool is already in the qa-tools pkg [17:21] makes sense [17:21] we should just update the hug day docs then [17:22] ara: can you add info about the package? [17:22] bdmurray: no I don't think it is, we are reshuffling around the docs anyway so I will make a note to mention them [17:22] sure, I will do [17:22] thanks [17:22] [TOPIC] New bug control member [17:22] New Topic: New bug control member [17:23] Charles Profitt, cprofitt, applied to the bug control team last week and was accepted. [17:24] congrats cprofitt! [17:24] I understand the bug jam has resulted in some applications too? [17:25] congrats :) [17:25] That's correct there are a few more applications pending at the moment. [17:26] cool :) [17:26] jams wouldn't be a bad avenue for doing bug control application advocacy [17:26] for the experienced participants anyway [17:26] jcastro: I certainly did ;) [17:26] [TOPIC] Most affected report [17:26] New Topic: Most affected report [17:26] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/launchpad-database/bugs-with-most-users-affected.html [17:26] LINK received: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/launchpad-database/bugs-with-most-users-affected.html [17:27] I think jcastro and or pedro were looking for that. Its all the open bug tasks with lots of people clicking metoo. [17:28] I thin the bluetooth needs resolving ;) [17:28] bdmurray: I wonder if we could/should do a combined score with subscriber count [17:28] It might be an interesting way to find blind spots, like if sort by status we can see there are some bugs with a New status and 15 / 14 people affected. [17:28] as in additive count, not just separate columns [17:29] (bug hotness proposal re-heated) [17:29] heno: right some weight scheme that includes metoo, subscribers and duplicates? [17:29] :) [17:29] bdmurray: but only direct subscribers [17:29] ara: right [17:29] bdmurray: right [17:29] heno: do you think I should add bluetooth tests to checkbox soonish for jaunty testing? [17:29] I'd assign the most weight to duplicates, subscribers and then metoo [17:30] as metoo usage possibly swap the weight btwn subscribers and metto [17:30] However, metoo seems like less interest than subscribing so maybe not [17:31] s/metoo usage/metoo usage increases/ [17:31] bdmurray: sounds good - the scheme can be fairly arbitrary as long as it's described in the footer [17:31] bdmurray: does a metoo not automatically subscribe you to a bug? [17:31] no [17:31] fader: no it does not [17:32] bdmurray: I've been misusing lp then... heh [17:32] it represents a lower level of commitment for the user [17:32] since they don't get email [17:32] * fader nods. [17:33] I just had misinterpreted its use. [17:33] bdmurray: might be useful to condense multiple tasks from the same bug into one. === Andre_Gondim-afk is now known as Andre_Gondim [17:33] do we have any idea of whether the feature has reduced 'me too' comments? [17:33] sbeattie: in that report? [17:33] bdmurray: yes, in that report. [17:34] sbeattie: okay, I'll think about it [17:34] ok, next [17:34] bdmurray: source is at? [17:35] [TOPIC] New bug tags (dxteam and notifications) [17:35] New Topic: New bug tags (dxteam and notifications) [17:35] bdmurray: gm script suggestion: me-too+subscribe [17:35] sbeattie: nowhere really since its a database query [17:35] I could stick it somewhere though [17:36] The dxteam has added some new bug tags to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags [17:36] notification is for bugs related to the new notification system [17:37] and dxteam is for bugs targeted by the dxteam [17:37] that's all there [17:38] er, its notifications plural not notification [17:38] I should speak with them about looking at team-assignment as well [17:38] hadn't they add 'flame'? for flame bugs? [17:38] bdmurray: is this bug control who have access to this [17:38] so we can make a page for them based on that [17:38] davmor2: access to what? [17:39] tags for notifications and dxteam [17:39] anyone can set a tag [17:39] anybody can set bug tags [17:39] (for better or worse) [17:39] [TOPIC] Next Testing day topic & highlights from last UTD [17:39] New Topic: Next Testing day topic & highlights from last UTD [17:40] last monday we had the first testing day focused on new features [17:40] kirkland and cjwatson were very responsive in #ubuntu-testing, thanks guys! [17:40] davmor2 tested LVM partitioner and found a couple of bugs that he debugged with cjwatson [17:40] ara: cheers! [17:41] kirkland fixed and released some bugs found during the testing day ;-) [17:41] I was happy to see new people coming [17:41] the low point was maybe UNR images: it was a bit disappointing, as ubiquity for netbooks was broken. [17:42] as did I [17:42] (fixed and released) [17:42] yes, the timing was unfortunate regarding UNR images [17:42] and for next Monday we were thinking about notify-osd and checkbox [17:43] * heno hugs cjwatson and kirkland [17:43] but, notify-osd team prefer to do it after UI freeze [17:43] and checkbox 0.6 is not yet in the archive [17:43] * kirkland hugs heno and the entire testing team! thanks guys! [17:43] ara: and you are proposing to start running testing days weekly, right? [17:43] what do you guys suggest? [17:43] heno: weekly or biweekly [17:44] on milestone weeks perhaps we could focus them on ISO smoke testing? [17:44]