[00:21] I submitted a patch for glife a few days ago on launchpad [00:21] contacted the maintainer... [00:21] no response from either... [00:22] (I know glife is not a top priority program, but it was my first patch) [00:23] phil_ps: What does the patch do? [00:23] nhandler: makes it compile again. (ports from glade0 to glade2) [00:23] nhandler: its been a year since the package worked [00:24] phil_ps: You will want to file a Freeze Exception request for it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess). Once the request gets approved, subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors to the bug to get it uploaded [00:24] nhandler: it was the first thing on the "harvest" list [00:24] nhandler: thanks [00:24] phil_ps: You're welcome [00:26] nhandler: oh, I see, the new ubuntu is coming out so there is a freeze. I've heard of that [00:30] haha that's a good thing for a patch to do... [00:32] its gnome2-0 supported in ubuntu 9.04? where would I find out without installing it [00:32] (on a windows machine...) [00:32] (linux laptop is on loan...) [00:35] packages.ubuntu.com [00:36] thanks marco [00:38] hmm, I guess I should get the beta and try to get it to compile there. (I am such a newbie...) [00:39] phil_ps: alpha, actually [00:41] the thing I love about working on open source software so far is interacting with people regarding computers. I am in grad school but still, it's considered cheating when you discuss problems.... [00:42] marco: thanks [00:42] wooow... new gdm theme in jaunty incredibly amazing :-) [00:43] phil_ps: my school says we can discuss, just write our answers independently (undergrad here) [00:43] phil_ps: and there's no r [00:46] marco: yeah they say that here too. but I dunno, this is just so much more fun [00:47] phil_ps: you know, i only get highlighted if you spell my nick right [00:48] hehe, maco has a new nickname :p [00:48] maco: polo! [00:49] *snort* [00:49] maco: sorry [00:50] haha [00:51] isok im too busy laughing at jdong_ now [00:51] actually...i think i have a picture of marco polo's house... [00:52] * LaserJock wonders if it has a pool [00:52] LaserJock: its in venice. just walk out the front door. [00:53] i took the photo from a gondola [00:53] oh....i guess that explains why it's a swimming game [00:54] water polo is :) [00:55] ajmitch: marco polo is too... [00:55] how odd [00:55] huh? [00:55] nevermind [00:57] yay, LP is back [00:57] I hate that java doesn't have function pointers/delegates [00:57] (probably wrong channel...) [00:58] I'll goto ubuntu-offtopic [00:58] phil_ps: you can do the same with anonymous interface wrappers [00:58] well interface wrappers in general but Java now lets you declare them anonymously on the spot. [00:58] it is IMO utterly verbose and ugly but it does the same thing [00:59] but the standard java components all use inheritance to achieve the effect. so annoying. [00:59] phil_ps, don;t use java if you don;t like it [00:59] have to for work [00:59] directhex: the company loves it, so I have to learn it real quick for this project [01:00] jdong_: i will look into that [01:01] phil_ps: but yes it's based off the same inheritance idea, just syntactic shorthand so you can do it on the spot. [01:01] tjaalton,slangasek: until X.org has been changed that it would use fontconfig directly, we still need to deal with defoma. However, Keith Packard has mentioned that we works on that on the X side. [01:01] I absolutely agree with you there should be a more smooth way of doing it but Java isn't known for being non-verbose. [01:02] jdong_: which is more verbose, java or cobol? [01:02] maco: lol OF THE PRACTICAL LANGUAGES [01:02] ArneGoetje: what's left on the X side that doesn't just use Xft? [01:02] hey [01:02] maco: (select (list (languages (filter (practical) )))))) [01:03] dunno if this is the right channel but i-m trying to install jaunty [01:03] and the install from the livecd doens't work [01:03] ubuntu+1 may be what you're looking for [01:03] crashes, won't even start [01:03] but that could be useful info... [01:03] crashes when? [01:03] ooh [01:03] that's right [01:04] thanks [01:04] nhandler: patches to make stuff work don't need freeze exceptions. [01:04] jdong_, how about some JNI? that's nice & sensible syntactically [01:04] snuffmeister: wait, when does it crash? [01:04] it doesn't start [01:04] does the lve cd not start or is it just the installer that's not working for you? [01:04] installer [01:04] did you try it from the command line to see if there are any error? [01:04] i tried installing directly from boot but it started the whole live cd, and the installer doesn't start [01:05] maco: no [01:05] how do i do that? [01:05] directhex: the last time I tried that I remembered the time I had to bridge a Ruby lib to Python using C as the middleman. [01:05] try that. open gnome-terminal and run ubiquity in there [01:05] slangasek: I don't know. I'm not familiar with X. [01:05] that was a bazillion times easier. [01:06] is ubiquity the command? [01:06] didn't do anything, i'm waiting for the crash signal [01:08] yes, ubiquity's the installer command. run it in a terminal and pastebin whatever errors it throws [01:08] scottk: He was porting from glade0 to glade2. I would not consider that a basic bug fix [01:08] nhandler: I'd call porting from non-working to working a bug fix. [01:08] maco: didn't do anything, no errors no nothing [01:09] not even the crash signal [01:09] The downside risk is nil. [01:09] didnt launch either? [01:09] nope [01:09] lemme check the processes [01:09] nothing there [01:10] scottk: Depending on how you look at things, you could consider any change a bug fix [01:10] snuffmeister: did you check the cd? [01:10] for md5? [01:11] not really, but it's the third or fourth time i've tried it, cd and dvd over time [01:11] nhandler: This is true, but release management is mostly about risk management and if they thing is dead to start with, there's really not much to worry about. [01:11] and never worked, only by updating === spm changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: feature-frozen | main frozen for alpha-5 | Ubuntu 8.10 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | LP believed fixed - please report any further timeouts to #launchpad [01:11] i'm on the live cd, can i do that now? [01:13] snuffmeister: reboot and when you start up itll offer to checkthe cd's integrity [01:13] ArneGoetje: well, the only fonts that X itself /needs/ to have are fixed, serif, and sans (though I think the other two have other names in X); it doesn't need defoma for that; and any apps that use Xft bypass X's view of the fonts in favor of fontconfig [01:13] snuffmeister: what version (date) of the CD are you using? [01:13] ok, i'll do that [01:13] daily build [01:13] of yesterday [01:13] or 2 days ago [01:13] 2 days ago was broken [01:14] =x [01:14] mm [01:14] mm [01:14] well there's an answer [01:14] lol [01:14] ok [01:14] if you need a reliable CD for installing the development release, you should generally use the most recent alpha [01:14] alpha4 i guess [01:15] slangasek: legacy X apps don't. [01:15] yes - unless you want to wait until alpha 5 is out tomorrow [01:15] ArneGoetje: correct [01:16] ArneGoetje: but I don't know any legacy X apps that need access to all the various fonts that are exposed via defoma [01:16] ArneGoetje: i.e., legacy X apps already have access to everything under /usr/share/fonts/X11, which is not managed by defoma [01:17] slangasek: crap, and i just formatted everything now =p [01:17] what time, btw? [01:18] snuffmeister: likely some time in the afternoon, US time [01:19] hmm.. nighttime in europe [01:19] yes [01:20] LaserJock: FFe acked [01:21] slangasek: thank you kindly [01:21] slangasek: are you going to respin the Edubutu CD then? [01:21] LaserJock: if it's still appropriate at the time the packages become available, yes [01:21] slangasek: I personally know that fontforge needs the XLFD to access fonts. Other apps (which are not core X) I don't know at the moment. [01:21] if we happen to be left with an uninstallable moodle on the edubuntu alpha5 ISO, that's not the end of the world either [01:22] slangasek: certainly not [01:22] slangasek: I was just wondering when I should give the CD a test [01:23] slangasek: and in the past (that might have been fixed already) there were problems toth .ttc fonts in oo.o if they weren't registered through defoma. [01:24] s/toth/with/ [01:24] LaserJock: ah, I was planning to check the testing status in deciding whether to reroll edubuntu for moodle :) [01:28] slangasek: well, I can test it tommorow morning if we want to wait for a reroll [01:29] that would be fine [01:29] k [01:30] slangasek: I suggest that for karmac we disable the dh_installdefoma call in all font packages and put them into a ppa. Then we can test if there are still problems left. [01:30] does the arch matter much for that one? I'm not really aware of anything that should be different between the amd64 and i386 CDs [01:35] ArneGoetje: alternatively, we could prod Debian to see what their plans are and what bugs they hit, since there was discussion recently on debian-qa :) http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2009/02/msg00074.html [01:40] scottk: If that is the case, I would like to clarify what the wiki page says about Bug Fix uploads. So it would be clear that a new upstream releases/patches that fix broken packages that don't affect any other packages are ok to upload without a FFe [01:41] nhandler: Basically the question is bugfix or features. It doesn't really matter much if it's upstream features or locally induced ones. [01:41] slangasek: well, they want to fix it in squeeze... means within the coming 2 years or so... ;) If we want to be faster, then we should take the initiative for testing, I think. [01:41] ArneGoetje: well, I don't think pabs was talking about waiting two years before removing it, though. :) [01:42] So if a package is broken and you unbreak it, that's a bugfix. An upstream release may also have feature changes and still need an FFe (we might prefer a patch to the new version). [01:44] slangasek: true, but it might take a bit longer until all problems are found and fixed. So, the overall time until everything works like expected may take multiple Ubuntu releases. [01:45] scottk: But I think the definition of a bug fix is unclear. For instance, if my application doesn't currently have support for 'foo', someone might file a bug saying 'myApp does not work with foo'. So would a patch that fixes this count as a bug fix? Or would it be a new feature? [01:46] New functionality is a feature. [01:46] Just because someone scribbled in a bug tracker they want a feature, doesn't make it any less so. [01:47] like generally you wouldn't do wishlist bugs [01:47] * ogra remembers his first post FF gcompris upload ... i updated to a new upstream with a 37MB patch to aviod the paperwork ... we had no release manager back then [01:47] so watch out for such people :) [01:48] nhandler: launchpad is back up. I am trying to file the bug [01:48] nhandler: it asks if the existing bug is the one I want to file... [01:48] nhandler: not sure what to do [01:49] ogra: tsk tsk [01:50] that reminds me, I should go look at gcompris [01:50] LaserJock, yeah, that was hoary ... i as still learning my way around [01:50] or breezy [01:50] cant remember [01:50] today a RM would block it [01:54] superm1: were you wanting a mythbuntu alpha5 reroll for bug #334547? [01:54] Launchpad bug 334547 in mythtv "proper configuration of mythtv-database should *remove* mythtv-reconfigure-required popup" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/334547 [01:55] scottk: I just think the line between new feature and bug fix is a little fuzzy and should be explained better on the wiki [01:55] nhandler: OK. Propose some text then. [01:56] scottk: I will. I'm just trying to get a better idea for what you and the other -release members consider bug fixes [01:57] OK. [02:03] superm1: btw, is someone taking care of updating firmware-addon-dell to smbios-utils? [02:06] superm1: seems to currently use getSystemId and dellBiosUpdate, both of which are provided as compat symlinks [02:21] slangasek, i was just talking to mebrown about that today. will address it after alpha [02:21] ok [02:21] what format and where is the help that yelp shows? [02:21] slangasek, yeah we'll need a reroll for bug 334547 [02:21] Launchpad bug 334547 in mythtv "proper configuration of mythtv-database should *remove* mythtv-reconfigure-required popup" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/334547 [02:21] as long as *ubuntu4 has published by now [02:21] calc: xml, /usr/share/gnome/help/foo? [02:21] i have a bug report that complains that the OOo dev documentation doesn't show up in yelp, and i think it shouldn't but i don't know exactly how yelp works [02:22] slangasek: ok [02:25] calc: well, that's where the documentation is that's /displayed/; I don't know about how it's /registered/ with yelp [02:26] superm1: ok, scheduled to trigger on the buildd as soon as mythtv -0ubuntu4 is published on amd64 [02:27] calc: generally you'll want an .omf file and use scrollkeeper/rarian to register it [02:27] slangasek, great thanks [02:27] calc: the .omf files are placed in /usr/share/omf/ [02:29] calc: is that documentation you would get at via the OO.o help menu or from yelp itself? [02:49] LaserJock: neither he wanted documentation for developer stuff in ooo-dev-doc to be in yelp [02:51] calc: that's sort of tricky [02:51] you can get it into yelp's database but it's not exactly easy to get at from yelp [02:52] the menu you see when you open up yelp is hard-coded [02:52] unless it's a man/info page you gotta do a search for it, and yelp's search function is ... special [03:08] LaserJock: ok i just closed it invalid after explaining that the OOo dev docs are not Gnome dev docs and are not formatted in the special manner that it requires [03:09] calc: are those docs available online somewhere? [03:11] LaserJock: not certain, its in openoffice.org-dev-doc though [03:19] If there's an archive admin with a free moment, I'd appreciate it if you'd toss http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/123115/ at syncbugbot for some backports (target is all intredpid, source is all jaunty). [04:19] heh, I get a kick out of the happycoders-emacs long description "This is a daily cvs snapshot". The Intrepid version is 2004.08.14 [04:21] :) [04:21] Didn't say which day. [04:22] Is this the channel for Jaunty questions? [04:23] nope, that'd be #ubuntu+1 [04:23] oops [04:35] superm1: new mythbuntu posted [05:11] slangasek, bug 334341 is affecting several types of builds. ive seen it on xubuntu and mythbuntu, looks like there are reports on normal ubuntu as well. affecting situations that you have existing partitions that get deleted i think. [05:11] Launchpad bug 334341 in ubiquity "Ubiquity: device or resource busy error message" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/334341 [05:12] superm1: yes, that looks like errata material to me [05:12] slangasek, alrighty === zaafou960 is now known as zaafouri [05:41] good morning === bluesmoke is now known as Amaranth === dreamnid_ is now known as dreamnid [06:55] Any backporters around who could look at bug #334538? [06:55] Launchpad bug 334538 in intrepid-backports "Please backport gitosis 0.2+20080825-2 from Jaunty to Hardy/Intrepid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/334538 [06:55] I'm mostly wondering if there's anything else I should do to the patch === _zaafouri is now known as zaafouri [07:10] Good morning [07:13] Morning pitti [07:14] * pitti hugs StevenK [07:26] * StevenK finally finishes processing removals === zaafouri is now known as zaafouri` [07:32] bryce: Argh! I processed syncs like an hour ago! [07:34] StevenK: not for main, I hope? :-) [07:34] StevenK: no hurry [07:34] Uhhhh [07:34] I *think* they were all universe [07:35] these syncs are all for main - they're the silly little video drivers no one uses [07:35] I saw, I just removed the silly little input drivers no one uses === zaafouri` is now known as zaafouri [07:42] StevenK: excellent, thanks :) [07:43] Riddell: I've just tested the patch for bug 190907 on kubuntu jaunty and it works as expected for Greek :) [07:43] Launchpad bug 190907 in gdebi "[kde] Applications cannot read Greek folder names" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190907 [07:45] tjaalton: sync req's filed - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/PackageNotes [07:46] bryce: cool [07:46] http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/X/PkgList/versions_current.html updated [08:03] Hi, can I use fridge calendar when calendar has moved to google calneda? Can I import ical calendar like before? === _zaafouri is now known as zaafouri [08:06] nikolam: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar [08:06] there's even an ICAL link at the bottom of http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar [08:07] dholbach, that is ical link? [08:07] no [08:07] liek I can import it inside Sunbird like before? [08:07] it's linked from there [08:07] linked from both pages [08:08] So we don`t have ability to add ical link to applications, like sunbird etc, we need to go to google to see meetings? [08:09] ? [08:09] no... search for ical on the two links I gave you [08:11] Ah http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics [08:11] I found it. [08:11] It is working now :) [08:14] hi guys, may I make you a packaging question? [08:14] it's about the packages version [08:15] sure [08:15] juanje: #ubuntu-motu is likely to be a better place, but you can probably ask here. [08:15] if we (in guadalinex) make a version of one package from Ubuntu, how should be the version? [08:15] dholbach: thanks [08:15] juanje: you could do it like we do... just add "guada1" :-) [08:16] that's waht we usually do, but seems too long [08:16] so something like 0.2-4ubuntu2guada1 could be ok? [08:16] it's your distro, you can sure do it :-) [08:17] it's just to be sure, the upgrade of the version from the upstream (you) make sense [08:18] if you decide to import 0.2-4ubuntu3 in the next release (and drop your changes because they're in Ubuntu or don't make sense anymore) the upgrade will just work [08:18] ok, we were doing like that but it's the kind of things we were not sure if was the better way [08:18] dholbach: perfect [08:19] dholbach: thanks ;-) [08:19] sure :) [08:21] RAOF: sorry for asking those things here, it was just because it is more derivative policy than packaging itself. But I'll join at #ubuntu-motu channel in case we have more technical questions :-) [08:23] juanje: #ubuntu-motu is generally a better place for simple-ish packaging information; this is generally better for highly complex packaging, policy interactions, and such. That said, now that I've seen the whole question, it's entirely appropriate here :) [08:24] RAOF: :-) [08:25] StevenK: just to make sure, did you also add arts to the sync blacklist? [08:27] pitti: Indeed [08:28] pitti: Along with everything else that I thought Debian wouldn't remove [08:28] StevenK: splendid, thanks [08:30] * dholbach hugs juanje and rcmorano [08:30] * dholbach hugs RAOF too [08:30] hey seb128! [08:30] * dholbach hugs seb128 too [08:30] hello dholbach [08:30] * seb128 hugs dholbach [08:31] * RAOF hugs dholbach [08:31] * juanje hugs dholbach [08:31] :-D [08:32] hahaha.... how much love in this channel :-P [08:32] I like it [08:32] :-) === azeem_ is now known as azeem [09:18] pitti: so as expected a single proper shutdown should fix your "addons installed" issue [09:18] i managed to reproduce after langpack update by using killall firefox-3.2 to shutdown [09:18] asac: yes, I expect that, too; I just wondered if I should keep it that way for debugging, or this is basically a "wontfix" issue [09:23] pitti: not sure. looking at code it seems they disabled it on startup to avoid excessive IO [09:24] asac: ah, you mean the extension files are updated on shutdown? [09:24] personally i would think that it should be disabled until all extensions are properly setup/registered [09:24] pitti: yes. the extensions manifest is the problem here (extensions.cache) ... it has a mTime field for each addon [09:24] that is flushed on shutdown only atm ... but i think thats a bug [09:25] but its a bit hard to determine, when all extensions are properly updated during startup [09:27] asac: okay; sounds a bit like "wontfix" then [09:28] i will look a bit more and bug upstream about it. seems that the code to flush on startup is actually there, but not reached. strange [09:34] ScottK: backports done; I assumed that you meant kde4-style-bespin rather than plasma-widget-xbar, since the former is the source package name [10:08] $ git reset fdi/information/10freedesktop/10-modem.fdi [10:08] fdi/information/10freedesktop/10-modem.fdi: locally modified [10:08] argh, yes, that's exactly what I want to reset, you *censored* [10:09] IIRC, git checkout -- fdi/information/10freedesktop/10-modem.fdi [10:09] "git reset --hard" seems to have worked [10:09] but last time I did that, I couldn't push any more [10:09] well, let's see :) [10:09] yes, stupid program. you have to use one command to revert all changes in your tree and a different one to revert individual files. [10:09] ion_: thanks, will do that next time [10:10] I think next time I'll just do git diff | patch -Rp1 or so.. [10:10] git checkout is the right thing to use here but is not exactly obvious [10:11] cjwatson: well, I first tried git revert, but its help says "If you want to throw away all uncommitted changes in your working directory, you should [10:11] see git-reset(1)" [10:11] ah, "particularly the --hard option." [10:13] glad I'm not the only one that finds resetting git trees a bit confusing [10:27] kirkland: I would really appreciate a look at bug 327348 at some point; I keep wasting time due to it [10:27] Launchpad bug 327348 in kvm "keep losing ability to type in guest" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327348 [10:27] bryce, pitti, its just a perception thing [10:27] resetting a tree to a particular point in history makes perfect sense [10:28] if you perceive each point to be a snapshot of the world in time [10:28] i want to reset the world to as it was 'then' [10:28] I just wanted to say "discard my uncommitted modifications" [10:28] I think "git reset --hard" does that [10:28] it's not just a perception thing; it's a bad UI design [10:28] so you wanted to reset to the HEAD of the tree [10:28] cjwatson, i don't think that is fair at all [10:29] how do you do it in bzr [10:29] I do; I see people running into this frequently [10:29] 'bzr revert ' [10:29] git checkout [10:29] "I want to revert my changes. I know, I'll use bzr revert" [10:29] would be the equivalent there [10:29] git revert even acknowledges that people might look there for this feature [10:29] in its manual pages [10:29] i want the version of this file in head, i know i'll ccheck that one out [10:29] its a perception thing in a lot of ways [10:29] actually it's git checkout -- [10:30] AFAICT? [10:30] well the -- thing is not necessary [10:30] I have seen git checkout fail when the -- is omitted [10:30] unless the filename might clash with a vranch name [10:30] branch name [10:30] this is a classic case of "user must adapt to fit tool" [10:31] I think it's entirely fair to criticise that [10:31] its a classic case of if you are in the bzr mind set then the commands are not intuitive [10:31] it's not just bzr [10:31] i find bzr revert reverting just one file just mad [10:31] but that is cause i am in the git mind set [10:31] most other revision control systems have similar semantics [10:31] apw: huh? [10:31] apw: 'bzr revert ' -> revert one file. 'bzr revert' -> revert whole trtee. [10:31] tree. [10:32] what does bz revert -r -4 do ? [10:32] revert whole tree to four revisions from end of branch [10:32] right where as it _should_ (in my head) undo just -4 [10:32] (working tree, not equivalent of the index) [10:33] the only point i am making is the interfaces are different [10:33] that doesn't make one or the other any righter [10:33] the point I am making is that it makes sense to optimise for common operations [10:33] just the one you learn first is less wrong [10:33] ok and which are the common ops that are not optimised ehre [10:33] "oh, shit, that change was completely wrong, let me throw it away rather than commit it" is a common operation [10:33] git checkout -f [10:33] would be undo everything [10:33] I'd also think that "commit all my changes" is more common than "commit nothing"... [10:33] I give up :) [10:33] I dunno, I learned git first and found it confusing before I ever heard of bzr. I was skeptical of bzr, but now I know it... I still find git syntax confusing. [10:34] git just fails to realise that brain-compatibility with other systems is important [10:34] bryce, but what did you use before [10:34] or was git really your first ? [10:34] apw, rcs, cvs, clearcase, svn [10:34] * pitti still painfully remembers arch [10:34] cjwatson, i personally seem to be able to use both now (git and bzr) and mostly get by [10:34] bryce, so you git wasn't your first [10:34] cvs really was [10:35] yep [10:35] just like thousands of other developers [10:35] so that confusion is to be expected, and bzr to be less confusing as its closer [10:35] you can't just discount the "migrating from cvs" case [10:35] yep. but we adapt, we learn [10:35] apw, if you argue that git makes sense for people who have never used a vcs, I will laugh ;-) [10:35] tools adapt to me [10:35] i am not trying to [10:35] i am trying to argue, that its a matter of subbing in the right commands for the concepts [10:36] like when you program in perl you use $()(%)(%()$ and in C you use something else [10:36] you have to tranlate from 'if constuct' to a command line [10:36] and you do thast for every tool you use [10:36] you see, I don't want to learn a VCS [10:36] I use a VCS to get my work done [10:36] I think the confusing thing is that "reset" works for the whole tree case [10:36] i don't want to learn a proigramming language [10:36] cjwatson: the same argument can be made for editors and programming languages. [10:37] therefore, in a VCS, working like other VCSes is a desirable attribute [10:37] you generally don't want to learn tools. [10:37] Mithrandir: I don't agree for programming languages, because their expressiveness is much more important [10:37] git and bzr are almost indistiguisable at the semantic level [10:37] Mithrandir: for editors I entirely agree which is why I learnt one ten years ago and never change [10:37] just the commands differ in construction [10:37] same as programming in two languages [10:37] because it is "revert" in most other systems, that's where people go first, and it does something different, but tells them about reset, which does whole trees. Then you try and do a single file and get a really confusing error message. [10:37] find the commands that work and you are set [10:38] if "revert" pointed to "checkout" then that may be improved [10:38] james_w, probabally it should point to checkout really [10:38] programming in two languages is completely different; languages are well-known to have widely different expressive properties (at least if you're considering them at a level above Turing machines) [10:38] james_w, ack [10:38] cjwatson: I guess I'm weird in that I use different tools for different things, then. :-) (I use both vi and emacs) [10:38] and if the error messages where better then it would be easier to learn. Generally they give you no clue as to what you did wrong. [10:38] cjwatson, well on that i dissagree. i use the same bit of my brain to convert between git and bzr [10:39] james_w, yeah can't argue that some of the errors are unhelpful [10:39] apw: look, I'm not trying to argue that any one system is perfect; you can look at my list of bugs filed on bzr if you like ... [10:39] anyhow, don't get the impression i think git is any better or worse [10:39] apw: but I'm getting really tired of people saying that git UI bugs aren't bugs [10:39]