[04:45] <boredandblogging> newz2000: ping
[04:46] <newz2000> hey boredandblogging
[04:46] <boredandblogging> hey
[04:46] <boredandblogging> can you update the fridge text editor?
[04:46] <boredandblogging> there was something stopping you before, right?
[04:48] <newz2000> I can't remember what was in my way before
[04:50] <boredandblogging> newz2000: nether do I
[04:54] <newz2000> boredandblogging: it is on my todo list
[04:54] <boredandblogging> newz2000: thanks
[04:54] <newz2000> I can't commit to a time
[04:54] <newz2000> I'm sorry, but I'm going to try to upgrade ubuntu.com and canonical.com to D6 before beta
[04:55] <boredandblogging> np, I just remember that there was a reason we didn't do it and couldn't remember why
[12:26] <SiDi> hello
[12:28] <SiDi> I'm reading the artwork mailing list and just wanted to drop a word about the mail we received for the countdown banners
[12:28] <SiDi> PLEASE don't go for iframes, that'd be an 11 year regression in web standards
[12:38] <prateek> Also, the mail mentions Javascript. It'll be really nice if people stop ignoring these two bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/278451 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/209417 . These issues came up when Hardy was released, and when Intrepid was released.
[12:38] <ubot3> Malone bug 278451 in ubuntu-website "Intrepid Countdown is useless for sites that can't use JavaScript" [Undecided,New]
[12:39] <SiDi> true
[12:39] <SiDi> the amount of people without js is about 5/6%
[12:39] <SiDi> hello thorwil :)
[12:39] <prateek> One issue that is mentioned in those bugs is wordpress.
[12:39] <prateek> Wordpress.com, specifically.
[12:40] <prateek> Wordpress.com doesn't allow Javascript
[12:40] <thorwil> hi!
[12:40] <SiDi> well, there's the problem of blags, too
[12:40] <SiDi> but when you are on your own server, using php is better than js imo :)
[12:41] <prateek> So with the current state of affairs, one can't use the countdown on a WP.com blog, unless one has access to a PHP enabled server and uses the workaround I mentioned in one of those two bugs.
[12:42] <prateek> This problem has been around since Hardy, and it stays the same each time... no action, not even a comment on the bug page. :-(
[12:42] <thorwil> oh yes, i heared from quite a number of people who weren't able to use the countdown image script
[12:42] <SiDi> What about that : the guy just puts an "<img src="w/e.com/countdown.png" />"
[12:42] <SiDi> and the image is generated and cached by a PHP server
[12:42] <thorwil> SiDi: wouldn't caching get in the way?
[12:43] <SiDi> Well, the idea of putting the image in cache is just to save the server's bandwidth
[12:43] <SiDi> generating images with php is costy
[12:44] <thorwil> SiDi: i'm more concerned with browser cache
[12:44] <SiDi> there could be the image, just linked by the people all over the web, and the php server on which it's hosted running an update script
[12:44] <SiDi> ah true
[12:45] <thorwil> is there a way to tag just an image with some kind of content:expire thing?
[12:47] <prateek> Sorry, my connection is flaky. :-(
[12:48] <SiDi> There are cache prevention options, yeh
[12:48] <SiDi> but its site-wide
[12:49] <SiDi> but honnestly, i think recent browsers are able to know if a pic changed. when i'm on google and they change their pic, it changes
[12:49] <prateek> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/18045/image/1/ Brainstorm does it with static images.
[12:49] <prateek> I presume the number there changes with time.
[12:49] <prateek> If brainstorm can do it, why not the Ubuntu countdown?
[12:50] <thorwil> well, if i replace an image in my blog, firefox keeps the old one if i don't change the filename
[12:51] <SiDi> a php include could do it, but with same restrictions than js
[12:52] <SiDi> or then, we allow php includes + js + eventually a static image for those who don't have it
[13:03] <nand> yeah, the brainstorm image link point to a PHP script which, depending of the day and others parameters, generate and return the image to display. JS-free.
[13:03] <prateek> nand: Yeah, so we should have the same for the countdown too.
[13:03] <nand> easily feasible yes
[13:04] <nand> you just need a server to host that script
[13:04] <nand> that PHP script
[13:04] <thorwil> afaik that server was/is the whole problem. why there wasn't such a solution already
[13:04] <prateek> No, I mean Ubuntu should officially provide this on its own server, just like brainstorm does.
[13:05] <nand> I don't see why it couldn't be possible to host this script on some Ubuntu server...
[13:05] <nand> newz2000: ^ ?
[13:06] <SiDi> ubuntu.com *should* be able to host such a script
[13:06] <thorwil> newz2000: great timing! i was just considering to ask you about the countdown :)
[13:06] <prateek> Is newz2000 around?
[13:07] <thorwil> prateek: doesn't look like it, but irc can be asynchronous communication :)
[13:08] <prateek> Oh ok. I got confused by the "great timing" part. I was wondering if newz2000 just came back or something.
[13:08] <nand> thorwil: btw some news on the media contest for the Ubuntu CD? :)
[13:09] <thorwil> nand: no. afair it was meant to be a community council decision and i think the last one didn't happen. not sure
[13:10] <nand> hmm, more waiting...
[13:12] <thorwil> there are at least 2 pretty nice productions among the contenders, although both rather ordinary in comparison ;)
[13:56] <nand> of course :)
[14:45] <newz2000> hi thorwil, prateek
[14:46] <newz2000> The problem with dynamic images is that it is so heavily cached, especially as we go from Beta to Release
[14:46] <newz2000> I'm not saying "No" but I do need to think about it a bit
[14:47] <newz2000> Regarding image generation, it's not expensive on the server side
[14:47] <newz2000> you have one line of logic that decides what image to open, then it opens it and sends the whole thing to the browser.
[14:47] <newz2000> If I were building an image and drawing text on it and such, that would be expensive, but presumably the images are already created.
[14:49] <SiDi> that'd be a good 1st solution, with js being used as secondary solution for people who can't use PHP on their websites
[14:49] <newz2000> no, php wouldn't be needed on the other websites
[14:49] <newz2000> just an <img tag
[14:49] <SiDi> ah yeh, and the image being a PHP script ?
[14:49] <newz2000> <img src="http://www.ubuntu.com/some.image.php">
[14:50] <newz2000> I'll talk to the Canonical sysadmins about it. It would make life easier for some.
[14:50] <newz2000> But for now, I'd rather focus on the actual images.
[14:50] <SiDi> i hope they forget about the iframe idea, too :$
[14:51] <newz2000> Why? Choice is good.
[14:51] <newz2000> Wouldn't it be nice to have an iframe and a png or two to chose from?
[14:51] <SiDi> well, i'd never put an iframe on my website
[14:51] <newz2000> some people would though
[14:51] <SiDi> these things are just not accessible at all
[14:52] <SiDi> yeh, and that's scary :P
[14:52] <newz2000> sure they are
[14:52] <newz2000> frames and iframes can be very accessible
[14:52] <newz2000> but even still, it's a banner ad
[14:53] <SiDi> well, i consider it pretty much breaks the content flow
[14:53] <SiDi> i seriously prefer having an image, especially when an image is enough and makes more sense for people who don't use the browser graphically
[14:53] <newz2000> The goal is to attract eyes, get people excited.
[14:54] <newz2000> A picture says a thousand words. A simple elegant animation can do even more
[14:54] <SiDi> Well, animations are doable with JS too. I don't think it'd be more simple for webmasters at all, but if you can't use JS on your browser, you'll have a proper image
[14:54] <newz2000> the js would be in an iframe
[14:55] <SiDi> i'm not sure all browsers can render iframes completely flawlessly for their users, especially text browsers
[14:55] <newz2000> all modern browsers can
[14:55] <newz2000> lynx cannot
[14:56] <newz2000> Do a little research on the matter. They're a good solution to this kind of problem.
[14:56] <newz2000> And it's pretty much the standard nowdays for ads
[14:56] <newz2000> (and much more)
[14:56] <SiDi> i still find it scandalous :)
[14:56] <SiDi> if one does need frames, one should use a frameset DTD
[14:56] <prateek> Hi. Good to know that PHP on Canonical servers is being considered.
[14:57] <SiDi> but i for sure wouldn't change my xhtml 1.1 dtd and my whole code in order to add an iframe, not even for ubuntu :P
[14:57] <newz2000> SiDi: I wouldn't ask you to. I think the png is more likely to happen.
[14:58] <SiDi> Well, at least it's ok with me as long as we got alternatives :)
[14:59] <newz2000> By the way web team, I see that julian_ (Julian Hubbard, design lead for Canonical) and mat_t (Mat Tomaszewski, UX and designer for Canonical) have joined.
[15:00] <newz2000> rough 'em up real good, they're new
[15:00] <newz2000> ;-)
[15:01] <prateek> newz2000: Don't you think having a page on the official Ubuntu website which says "KDE version 3.5.5 is the current stable release and Kubuntu 6.10 is the first distribution to include it." is a Very Bad Thing? The page in question is http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/kubuntu .
[15:01] <prateek> (bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/112673 )
[15:01] <ubot3> Malone bug 112673 in ubuntu-website "What's Ubuntu? >> Kubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[15:02] <newz2000> prateek: yes, I do think so
[15:03] <newz2000> wow, there are already a few ideas for banners at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/JauntyCountdownBanners
[15:04] <prateek> Looks nice! Though I wonder what "only 29 jump days left" means...
[15:06] <mat_t> hi everybody, newz2000, thx for introducing me :)
[15:06] <prateek> ... so, can something be done about that Kubuntu page? For example, including correct information, instead of a combination of wrong information and outdated information.
[15:07] <newz2000> 25% of the people (including bots) in this room are named "mat*"
[15:07] <newz2000> prateek: yes, let me take a quick glance at it.
[15:08] <prateek> Thanks :-)
[15:08] <newz2000> prateek: are you a kubuntu user?
[15:08] <prateek> Yeah.
[15:09] <newz2000> Don't suppose you can throw together a sharp looking screenshot to replace that first image could you?
[15:09] <newz2000> oh, wait
[15:09] <newz2000> that one on the kubuntu homepage will work
[15:09] <prateek> Yeah. And I'm on Kubuntu 8.04 and not 8.10... not yet a KDE 4 convert.
[15:10] <newz2000> Well, one thing that can be said about KDE 4 (like the previous versions before it), they know how to make someting pleasing to the eye
[15:10] <prateek> Haven't tried it out lately, though I tried out 8.10 when it was released, and I didn't find it as good as good ol' 3.5.
[15:10] <prateek> Oh yes, certainly. It looks great.
[15:10] <SiDi> well, hello mat_t :)
[15:12] <prateek> The main thing that put me off when I tried KDE 4.1 in 8.10 was the lack of a taskbar which can handle 3 rows and which autohides. I rely on these in 3.5.
[15:13] <newz2000> prateek: can you suggest replacement text for that second paragraph?
[15:14] <prateek> Hmm... I'm hopeless at such things. :-( A possibility could be to borrow something from the Kubuntu or KDE websites. Another could be to simply delete the "KDE version 3.5.5 is the current stable release and Kubuntu 6.10 is the first distribution to include it. " part.
[15:14] <newz2000> oh, I can check the kde website
[15:14] <prateek> Mentioning specific version numbers is probably not needed here.
[15:14] <newz2000> kubuntu is light on content
[15:15] <newz2000> kde.org is the opposite. :-P
[15:15] <prateek> Heh, yeah. :-)
[15:17] <prateek> Hmm... http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/ mentions UNIX quite a bit. I'm a bit confused about these things... technically, am I or am I not using UNIX? (I'm on a typical installation of Kubuntu 8.04)
[15:18] <newz2000> you are not technically
[15:18] <newz2000> unix is a trademark
[15:18] <newz2000> So you have to buy a license to call your product UNIX and you have to meet certain standards.
[15:19] <prateek> Ok, that's what I thought, that not anything can be called UNIX (unlike what the whatiskde page might lead one to believe... )
[15:20] <prateek> Anyway, some screenshots here: http://www.kde.org/screenshots/
[15:21] <newz2000> ok, page updated and bug closed.
[15:22] <julian_> hi everyone
[15:22] <julian_> thx for the intro newz2000
[15:22] <newz2000> my pleasure. ;-)
[15:27] <newz2000> we're getting an influx of mailing list subscriptions to the team.
[15:32]  * SiDi is amongst the culprits
[15:33] <newz2000> Well then, welcome SiDi! Glad to have you.
[15:34] <SiDi> thanks :)
[16:23] <SiDi> prateek: you and me have a very high quality connection
[16:25] <Turl> SiDi: you're on mibbit, I'd blame them, not your connection :p
[16:25] <SiDi> I blame the teachers who throw me out of university computer rooms so that they got one more PC to teach 1st year students how to use OOo and the gimp :D
[16:26] <Turl> woah, a university with OOo! where are you SiDi?
[16:26] <SiDi> Montpellier
[16:27] <SiDi> well, all the universities i've seen so far use Linux oO
[16:27] <Turl> here I'd bet 90%+ of the schools/univerties use M$ products, and teach them :/
[16:27] <SiDi> we have windows on a few PC in dualboot, too, for some crappy software, but here everyone uses linux :P
[16:27] <SiDi> but its an old redhat distro they have
[16:28] <SiDi> and they removed mwm, only gnome and kde left, its just so slow :x
[16:28] <SiDi> i just take my laptop and use the wifi hotspots, but we only get a decent wifi connection in a few rooms, and when they're full i've got to go on the other side of the uni to get the internet T_T
[16:29] <Turl> SiDi: old pcs? GNOME is not slow by itself :p
[16:29] <SiDi> well, not so *old*, but definately weak machines
[16:29] <Turl> pentium3, 256MB ram I guess
[16:29] <SiDi> oh, and they bought some 16/10 screens but didnt configure the xorg.confs, too, so we have 800x600 screen res on those screens
[16:30] <SiDi> pentium D 1gb ram and a crappy processor, if i remember well
[16:30] <SiDi> well, i got a 4GB ram laptop, with a P8100, so its definately faster ^^
[16:32] <Turl> xorg.conf? with jaunty, I completely forgot about that :p
[16:32] <Turl> well, 1gb ram and a pentium D, it shouldn't be slow :/
[16:33] <Turl> (unless slow is "not like an i7 with 12GB ram" for you)
[16:33] <SiDi> well, not that much, but i use xfce with pretty responsive pcs
[16:33] <SiDi> so of course im not used to have to wait for 10 secs for my desktop to be loaded
[16:33] <Turl> you don't use compiz then :p
[16:33] <SiDi> but the prob is that they use old versions; for instance firefox 2, which is way slower than firefox 3
[16:33] <Turl> yeah, that's true
[16:34] <SiDi> i dont use compiz :P my session boots fast, i removed absolutely everything :P i have a tear for the non-linux users who have to bear kde3's launching
[16:34] <Turl> :p
[16:34] <SiDi> i accidentally fell on an old (very old) website i made for a project when i was still at college. coded with ms publisher. the homepage is about 200kb, and contains 1 image and 1 link
[16:37] <Turl> LOL
[16:37] <Turl> heavy page heh
[16:37] <SiDi> yeh
[16:38] <Turl> my webpages weight way less :p it's the magic of using geany to do HTML :p
[16:51] <SiDi> its been done with micro*** publisher, years ago, before i knew how to write an hello world in html :P i've done better since then :$
[18:41] <knome> hi newz2000
[19:21] <newz2000> hi knome
[19:44] <knome> newz2000, we might be interested of the ubuntu module in xubuntu also. if you need help, feel free to ask, if you promise we will have that module also ;)
[19:45] <newz2000> knome: well, I don't think it would help xubuntu because xubuntu doesn't use the same mirrors as ubuntu
[19:45] <newz2000> it gets all of its data from launchpad
[19:45] <knome> newz2000, is it only a list of mirrors or is there some kind of detecting algorhythm?
[19:45] <newz2000> launchpad has all the magic
[19:45] <newz2000> let me get you a link...
[19:46] <knome> oki, thanks
[19:47] <newz2000> knome: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+cdmirrors
[19:47] <newz2000> mostly the ubuntu module is just a place for me to stick code that is version controlled
[19:48] <knome> heh, ok
[19:49] <knome> so how do you edit that output
[19:49] <newz2000> knome: which output?
[19:49] <knome> newz2000, the launchpad page.
[19:50] <newz2000> there is a daemon inside launchpad that maintains that data
[19:50] <newz2000> if you add -rss to the end of that url you'll get an rss feed which is what I use
[19:50] <knome> ok. can you access it's data staight?
[19:50] <knome> a-ha!
[19:50] <newz2000> shh. It's a secret. ;-)
[19:51] <knome> so does it have the flavor/version info? my firefox died.
[19:52] <newz2000> no, there's some file that all the official mirrors get which contains a list of the files that need to be included to be official
[19:52] <newz2000> launchpad checks each mirror to ensure they have all the files in that list
[19:52] <knome> ok..
[19:52] <newz2000> and if they do they are in the feed, if they don't they drop out
[19:52] <newz2000> the list is ubuntu, kubuntu, server for all supported archs and supported versions
[19:52] <knome> ok. does that list include xubuntu stuff?
[19:52] <newz2000> no
[19:52] <knome> ...
[19:52] <newz2000> nor the dvds
[19:52] <newz2000> nor ubuntu studio, etc
[19:53] <knome> ok. is there *any* way to solve that?
[19:53] <newz2000> I don't know, you'd probably want to discuss it with the ubuntu developers, maybe #ubuntu-release would be appropriate
[19:53] <knome> ok, thanks.
[19:54] <knome> if you still need help with the module, just ask
[19:54] <newz2000> but if xubuntu did get included what we could do is like kubuntu and make an iframe
[19:54] <newz2000> knome: thanks, I will hopefully work on that on Monday
[19:54] <knome> iframe? why not just take what we need from the feed
[19:55] <newz2000> well, kubuntu's site is locked down so no php
[19:55] <newz2000> they use the same servers as locos
[19:56] <knome> we can use php
[19:56] <newz2000> shh. Don't say it too loud. :-)
[19:56] <knome> lol
[19:57] <knome> lot of secrecy here in #ubuntu-website
[19:58] <knome> i suppose these version/flavor lists are not correct: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mirror/mirror.anl.gov-cd
[19:58] <knome> am i right?
[19:59] <newz2000> I'm not real sure what that is for actually
[19:59] <knome> yeah.
[19:59] <newz2000> as I understand it you have to mirror the whole thing to be on that list
[20:00] <knome> if that had correct info, i could just create a script and manually run it now and then
[20:00] <knome> the script could read all those pages ;P
[20:00] <knome> not very efficient, i know, but sometimes you have to do these kind of things.
[20:01] <newz2000> if you're interested in this I'd talk to the ubuntu release guys. They might give some valuable insight.
[20:03] <knome> i already asked them. :)
[20:03] <knome> just haven't got an answer