[00:09] sebas: Woah [00:09] I'm working on a server now that a client gave me and it boots up to Debian server in the time it takes my computer to detect the and initalize the CD Rom Drive [00:23] Heh, yeah. I've this SATA card that takes ages [00:23] And I found this funny UI problem in the BIOS screen [00:23] it says "press F8 for boot menu" before it has initialized the (usb) keyboard [00:24] :-) [00:24] So the first keystrokes are lost [00:24] I can imagine that one being a phone support nightmare [00:24] Well the server boots so fast that I had to look up the keys since it's impossible to read them while it's booting [00:24] (a) knowing about that particular race condition [00:24] (b) telling the person on the other line when to press F8 exactly [00:25] waaaaait for it waaaaaaaaaaaaaait for it [00:25] Now!!! === coreymon is now known as coreymon77 [01:36] yay [01:37] aya [01:37] o/ [01:37] it's rather quiet on the interwebs this evening [01:43] so etank [01:44] yes mr. vorian [01:44] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes [01:44] these are some really easy things to get the hang of how debian packaging works [01:45] basic stuff like updating a package, creating a debdiff, etc... [01:46] k [01:47] Welcome etank. [01:47] im going to take some time to watch the motu vids in the next day or so [01:47] thanks ScottK [01:54] vorian: the pbuilder for jaunty finished [01:55] excellent [05:13] seele: you around? === DreadKnight is now known as DeadNight [05:38] DeadNight: Qt [05:38] cute nickname or what? :P [05:41] Cute Nick [06:02] ty ^^ [06:02] i'm outta here... sleep time [06:29] the new screen profiles in ubuntu server are nice....stupid python2.6 has a lot of shit broken though [06:30] nixternal: It's known and planned and being fixed. [06:31] i just went through offlineimap working on the code...i have it in a workable state, but it still spews a few errors === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak [06:31] actually that's the surprise lying in wait for rich. he has to do the rest of the python 2.6 transition himself! [06:42] * nixternal blows up [07:33] JontheEchidna: thx for sponsoring kile (i suppose it was you) ... please if you feel for it: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/AndreasWenning/DeveloperApplicationTemplate :) [07:51] NCommander: ping [10:40] hi [10:42] Why was the experimental-repo closed down? [10:46] it's pretty unsatisfactory for the users to update this way, because they get in touch with other backported packages which may cause other problems. [10:49] serenity: what other packages do you have trouble with? [10:49] also, using an experimental repo seems by far more risky to me than backports anyway, so... [10:50] Mamarok: none, but i do support and i'm just waiting for the first user who complains about problems with backported software [10:50] serenity: well, they should not have use experimental in the first place IMHO then [10:51] Mamarok: it's just a name, nut to be compared with Debians experimental repo [10:51] experi was a clear repo. You know what you get is all about kde. Backports are not. [10:52] mgraesslin: I know [10:52] but kubuntu-experimental is meant to, well, experimental use, so it's not quaranteed to work prefectly [10:52] and IMO not meant to "users" like backports [10:52] Tm_T: +1 [10:52] then it should not have been published on kubuntu news [10:53] mgraesslin: sure this all isn't mentioned there? [10:53] mgraesslin: well, it has been with the necessary warnings [10:53] but the backports-repo also doesn't garante to work perfect [10:53] +e [10:53] serenity: true, but it has more testing behind there [10:54] as in more likely to work without issues [10:54] and what about video garbage? [10:54] oh come on, if a user wants the latest packages, he/she should be aware of the risks anyway, and not just install without checking waht is installed [10:54] Mamarok: indeed [10:54] especially when this all is mentioned properly [10:54] sorry to say: but most Kubuntu users asking for support at ubuntuusers.de have no idea at all [10:55] it can hardly be our fault if a user does silly things [10:55] they just copy commands to the konsole [10:55] mgraesslin: well, tell them then to use their brains before doing things [10:55] Case: User1 wants to have 4.2, enable backports, updates and leaves the repo enabled. One day, linux-header---xyz is ready for update and Soundcard etc isn't working after that. [10:55] and read release texts before doing anything, that's what those are made for [10:56] Mamarok: how many users read the 4.0 release note? Or Amarok 2.0? Why were there all these complaints if all users read the release note? [10:57] mgraesslin: well, that's their fault, isn't it? And that's the way you also learn not to do things without thinking [10:58] or ask for advice before if he(she doesn't have a clue [10:58] mgraesslin: we cannot hold peoples hands all the way, really [10:58] what was wrong about the experimental-repo? [10:58] s/about/with [10:58] sorry to say but I totally disagree [10:58] mgraesslin: so we should not announce new releases at all, and keep packages away from any public site? [10:59] I want to have Linux work the way that it is "DAU" safe - with that attitude it will not happen [10:59] no, but don't distribute them via backports [10:59] mgraesslin: or going back to the good old Debian release cycles, once every 5 years or so... and get a totally outdated system on the desktop [10:59] mgraesslin: Linux is IF you stick with official repositories [11:00] mgraesslin: we cannot hide new stuff, and would be nonsense to even try [11:00] yeah and the normal user does not want to have the newest releases and understands the danger of non-official repositories [11:00] Linux/Ubuntu [11:00] serenity: well, as I said, they should *not* have used experimental in the first place, it was really testing, backports are more tested [11:00] mgraesslin: that's the job of community to tell about those things [11:00] the release note on kubuntu news did not tell this [11:00] Mamarok: and what about the case i mentioned above? [11:00] mgraesslin: did [11:01] and does [11:01] mgraesslin: why did they upgrade in the first place then? It has never been announced as an official release like 8.10 or 8.04 [11:01] if not, give a fix patch and it will be fixed [11:01] so if the user wants a stable system, he/she should stick with the official release, period. [11:01] http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.2 [11:02] were is there the information that it could be harmful? [11:02] those who complain if they use experimental or backported stuff should have thought before [11:02] mgraesslin: its not an offical Kubuntu release, the offical one is 8.10. [11:02] not that we wouldn't help out of the mess, but still [11:03] that's like tuning a car and not been able to handle it if it's going too fast or is more difficult to steer [11:03] not the manufacturers fault, but the users [11:04] sorry then don't put it on the news page [11:04] keep the packages hidden to those who will find it [11:04] Wrong. By distributing via backports you also provide the ''tools'' to tune the car. [11:05] * mgraesslin thinks the whole concept of bakcports is wrong in Ubuntu [11:05] +1 [11:05] oh come on, it has been said and written that this is *not* stable and experimental, and backports are marked to be *not* recommended for basic users, so [11:05] mgraesslin: indeed, it isn't told clearly enough, but, its said "Follow the Kubuntu Repository Guide to enable Recommended Updates and Unsupported Updates" [11:05] unsupported says it all btw, so if people can't read... [11:06] Mamarok: aye, but could be said more clearly IMO [11:06] and everybody speaks a fluent english? [11:06] mgraesslin: how this "backports" is wrong? [11:06] * Sput finds it quite optimistic to think that Joe Dau Average knows what "unsupported" means [11:07] most users go "omg shiniez" and that's all they think when they see such a checkbox :) [11:07] Sput: I kinda agree, glad that most of local communities makes things clear [11:07] so if a user comes around with a f"§$-upped system because of backports, i have to tell him: hey, you wanted 4.2 it's your fault? [11:07] Sput: agree, but this is *not* our fault at all [11:07] serenity: wouldn't say that [11:07] Tm_T: backports are Pandora's box - there is everything, you get stuff you don't want, you get stuff you want [11:07] serenity: yes, and he should have asked before upgrading and have read the warnings, but one can word it differently [11:08] mgraesslin: just like backports are supposed to work in large scale [11:08] serenity: mgraesslin: has there been a problem already? can we help? [11:08] mgraesslin: again, the average users should not activate backports and is told so, if he does it non the less, it's his fault, persiod. [11:08] Nightrose: no yet [11:08] Nightrose: not known, just speculation [11:08] ok let us know when - i'll help you [11:09] Mamarok: "should have asked" and "read the warnings" is just not something users do [11:09] :) [11:09] Nightrose: it will tell you if so [11:09] ;) [11:09] Sput: I know, but this is not our fault [11:09] Sput: they should, and we should tell tem to do so [11:09] Nightrose: there is already one thread with a user complaining that the ppa is not available any more [11:09] if people are stupid we should be blamed? come on! [11:09] can you give me a link? [11:10] Nightrose: anyway, maybe we should make a habit to mention when some upgrade isn't "supported by canonical" or similar, to make notice that it's not official in highest level or so [11:10] does it matter who is at fault? [11:10] stop putting the blame on the other party! [11:10] Tm_T: yes definitely [11:10] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/kde-4.2-update-quelle-nicht-mehr-vorhanden/ [11:10] miscommunication is everyones fault =) [11:10] Tm_T: can you send an email to the devel list? [11:10] mgraesslin: thx [11:10] Nightrose: will today, remind me if it hasn't happened in 6 hours [11:11] ok [11:11] Nightrose: it might be a good idea to put changes like repo not only in the corrseponding news but publish it as a new entry [11:11] mgraesslin: *nod* something to think about [11:11] you don't check old news entries for changes of repos [11:12] mgraesslin: FYI back when we tried to hide stuff from users, they did dig it out and complain still [11:12] mgraesslin: so, really hiding unstable stuff doesn't help [11:12] heh good point [11:13] then it needs more warnings [11:13] mgraesslin: hidden and KNOWN to be unstable?! [11:13] for us at ubuntuusers.de it was a clear official repo with KDE 4.2 - and we recommended the upgrade cause of the massive improvements compared to 4.1 [11:14] "via backports you get 4.2 and _also_ other backported packages which may affect your system'' [11:14] mgraesslin: from where you took that official part? [11:14] from the fact that it was published in a news on kubuntu.org [11:14] mgraesslin: that doesn't make things official (: [11:15] well... [11:15] mgraesslin: anyway, miscommunication, we should make it more clear what is official and supported [11:15] and what is not [11:15] for user xyz it does [11:15] and that it is linked on KDE relaese announcement as packages are available [11:15] mgraesslin: indeed [11:16] anyway, gottago -> [11:26] hey apachelogger good morning and a good sunday! [11:26] salut emonkey [11:37] hey apachelogger [11:50] o/ a|wen [11:51] we've been praising your bat-scripts the last days :) [11:55] \o [12:10] a|wen: sweet :D [12:11] apachelogger: so be sure to be back in time, if we ever need some maintenance of them ;) [12:16] apachelogger: how much longer are you around? [12:16] i should tag 2.0.2 today and this would be the test run for the branch tagging [12:17] do you have any local changes left? [12:18] Nightrose: did I even commit that? [12:18] not sure [12:18] my latest work that is [12:19] branch tagging should be working just fine [12:19] I suppose ;-) [12:20] Nightrose: No new revisions to push. [12:20] just give it a shot [12:20] I'll take a look at my refactor branch [12:21] ok will be another few hours though i thin [12:21] k [12:22] the statistics stuff might break ... at least it only works for 1 of 3 tries in the refactor branch [12:22] not sure about stable [12:23] k [12:41] holas [12:46] hi JontheEchidna [12:46] a|wen: writing up feedback now :) [12:47] thx :) [12:56] feedback'd [12:58] much appreciated JontheEchidna [13:50] Riddell: ping ? [13:59] Stasks is a nice plasmoid [14:08] JFTR (reading the backscroll) - the KDE 4.2 packages in backports are much more installable and bug fixed than the ones in kubuntu-experimental were. [14:17] ScottK: they are indeed; you've been doing a great job on them, thx for that! ... but we might want to consider adding a *warning: this is unsupported* to the news [14:17] Riddell: the default konq homepage crashes konqueror [14:19] ScottK: another thing ... is it possible for us to do a copy from PPA to backports? (like security updates is a copy from a PPA); the only real problems we've seen is due to the packages not landing in the repository at the same time [14:25] ScottK: hi [14:25] ScottK: I have a little question about the NEW queue... [14:26] ScottK: I have 2 packages waiting there, that where kde3 apps, now ported to kde4... [14:26] ScottK: as they were previously in the archives, do they need a FFE ? [14:26] ScottK: I seem to remember Riddell told me they could be approved directly... === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak [16:20] Tonio_: They do need FFe, but Riddell can give it, so it amounts to you have one. [16:21] a|wen: It is possible, but has had other problems where copied packages fail to upload once they are built on archs not supported by the PPA. [16:21] I'm all for clarifications to make it clearer what people are getting into if they upgrade to 4.2 now. [16:57] ScottK: "Note: These packages are not supported by Canonical; for a stable system it is not recommended to upgrade. KDE 4.2 will be officially supported as part of Kubuntu 9.04 being released April 23rd 2009." [16:57] ScottK: or something in that area... [16:57] Fine with me. [16:58] i think that is what i understood people were missing from the news-item [16:58] * ScottK looks at ryanakca to fixor it. [16:59] ScottK: will 4.2.1 go to kubuntu-experimental or -backports ? [17:00] Up to Riddell, but I'd say kubuntu-experimental first. [17:00] i second that! [17:00] then we should add something similar; probably even with a stronger warning [17:03] ScottK: maybe just expand the first part a bit to say "These packages are most experimental and not supported by Canonical; ..." [17:04] * ScottK doesn't really have the mental bandwidth available ATM to know, but like the idea of warning people. [17:06] ryanakca: if you go to changing something: maybe we should also change the heading from "Jaunty" to "Jaunty (development release)" just for clarification [17:16] a|wen: Jaunty Alpha 5 Released -> Jaunty Alpha 5 (development release) Released ? [17:17] ryanakca: the Jaunty title in http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.2 [17:18] a|wen: ah, there, ok. Might as well tackle all the other website bugs while I'm at it. [17:19] sounds good :) [17:20] a|wen: check? [17:22] ryanakca: doesn't seem to have changed ... some server-side caching? [17:24] a|wen: Probably... Check again in a few minutes and let me know if you want me to retweak it again please :) [17:25] ryanakca: i'll do that ... thx a bunch [17:47] ryanakca: are you sure you published the changes? ... still no changes [18:08] a|wen: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.2 , right? `` KDE 4.2 has been released. Jaunty (current development release) users can do a full upgrade to get the latest packages. Packages for 8.10 (Intrepid) are in intrepid-backports'' [18:09] ryanakca: ahh ... i was looking at the "Jaunty" title below the picture [18:10] ryanakca: and i was looking for an added warning somewhere in the intrepid instructions [18:15] a|wen: I can append it there. And I'm guessing the subject of the warning is somewheres in the scrollback? [18:15] Found it :) [18:15] quicker than my copy-pasting :) [18:17] a|wen: There. [18:18] ryanakca: perfect! :) [18:18] a|wen: Anything else? :) [18:19] a|wen: Any comments on bug 327094, or can I stick in the recommended changes? [18:19] Launchpad bug 327094 in kubuntu-website "Additions for KDE 4.2 installation instructions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327094 [18:20] ryanakca: i don't have anything else ... and yeah, that should cover the bug [18:21] at least what is left of the instructions after changing it for backports [18:22] kpackagekit still don't want to let me upgrade my system here: http://pastebin.com/m2ce850aa [18:23] "The name org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.AuthenticationAgent was not provided by any .service files" << am I missing another package? [18:25] smarter: you have kpackagekit, policykit-kde and packagekit ? [18:25] yes [18:26] trying to launch software sources didn't work either: http://pastebin.com/m69f664b4 [18:26] it asked for my password and then nothing [18:26] smarter: and packagekit-backend-apt [18:26] i suppose [18:27] I guess it's yet-another-python-bug-because-of-ascii-used-as-utf8-only-found-when-locale-is-not-english-so-noone-care [18:27] a|wen: yes [18:27] smarter: could be one ... test with LANG=C ... if it works scream at $someone [18:28] haha, now it crashed, and apport crashed trying to generate a crash dump :p [18:29] OSError: [Errno 17] File exists: '/var/crash/_usr_bin_python2.6.0.crash' [18:30] oh great... seems python-apport doesn't do automatic filename-increase [18:30] yay for QA [18:31] who needs that :P [18:31] seems like I'm not the only one who has this problem: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1075778 [18:35] a|wen: does it work for you? [18:36] smarter: i'm still on intrepid ... might venture for an upgrade after 4.2.1 is out [18:37] something needs testing? [18:40] Quintasan: kpackagekit [18:40] smarter: any output from "ls -1 /usr/share/dbus-1/services/* | xargs grep -Hn org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.AuthenticationAgent" ? [18:40] nop [18:41] I have [18:41] smarter: try to install policykit-gnome and test again? [18:41] Quintasan: which file? and try to run a dpkg -S on the file [18:41] I meant the output :P [18:42] Quintasan: you on jaunty? [18:42] a|wen: should be on -kde http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.AuthenticationAgent&mode=filename&suite=jaunty&arch=any [18:42] yeah [18:42] Quintasan: "ls -1 /usr/share/dbus-1/services/* | xargs grep -Hn org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.AuthenticationAgent | cut -d: -f1 | xargs dpkg -S" ? [18:43] policykit-kde: /usr/share/dbus-1/services/kde-org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.AuthenticationAgent.service [18:43] oh, I'm using policykit-kde 0.2 from $some-ppa and apparently it doesn't have the services file [18:43] ahh, then no need to look further i presume :) [18:43] $some-ppa=kubuntu-experimental [18:43] is that an old version? [18:43] or a new and buggy version? [18:44] smarter: old ... from 2008 [18:44] a|wen: we totally need an epoch or something then [18:44] 0.0+svn920907-0ubuntu1 in jaunty [18:46] smarter: sounds like it ... or at least an update of the current package [18:46] doesn't work better [18:46] I get "'Authentification error : : [18:46] I'll reboot [18:46] but first, dinner :] [18:46] smarter: probably needed === milian_ is now known as milian [19:01] * nixternal wonders if they will ever update eclipse in ubuntu [19:02] i can't even get 3.4 to work in jaunty :/ [19:02] * ScottK hands nixternal a mirror. [19:03] ya, i don't feel like messing with it because we use gcj and openjdk [19:03] lord knows when that stuff will ever work [19:03] Well pretty well everyong feels similar. [19:03] * ScottK touched it once in Feisty or Gutsy and never again. [19:04] kpackagekit still doesn't work: http://pastebin.com/m54a6f2f8 [19:04] ya, i touched it once upon a time as well [19:04] (yay for helpful messages :p) [19:04] i like eclipse because it is the all in one ide [19:04] i can do python, c++, and whatever else I feel like [19:05] since I do python most of the time, i want to get to like eric [19:05] and actions on notifications don't work here too [19:05] smarter: What apps? [19:05] but that is the most confusing ide i have used...i have yet to get code completion working in it [19:05] ScottK: kopete and kpackagekit [19:05] Those should work. [19:06] smarter: kopete actions are known to be broken upstream [19:06] (I'm on 4.2.1, that might explain it :]) [19:06] at least according to mattr on identi.ca [19:06] ok [19:06] thanks [19:06] smarter: you are partly on 4.2.1 i suppose ;) [19:06] yep [19:07] could explain it ... those half-upgraded states are not always the best [19:08] smarter: at least it is another error now ;) [19:08] a|wen: yes :p [19:09] have you tested with LANG=C now? [19:10] software-properties-kde? yes, doesn't work better [19:10] thought I'm not sure if kdesudo takes the LANG=C [19:11] yup, even if I put LANG=C sof... in a script and kdesudo it, it doesn't work [19:11] but that might be related to Qt 4.5 not playing well with PyQt 4.4.4 [19:13] there are pretty many places where it could go wrong ... kind of a complex structure [19:15] yup [19:15] maybe python2.6 is doing something wrong too [19:18] another possibility [19:28] * ScottK notes amarok 2.0.2 tagged. [19:33] oh, shiny [19:36] O_o: http://pastebin.com/mf83010c [19:38] looks like something that needs a recompile qt4.5 / python2.6 [19:38] probably === fregl_ is now known as fregl [21:11] night guys [21:14] Would have been really nice to mention the known issues of ubuntu alpha5 in the kubuntu release notes, too. === ghostcube_ is now known as ghostcube [23:28] All it takes is someone to write them. [23:28] The Python 2.6 stuff came after anyway.