/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/03/09/#xubuntu.txt

Dab202	that helps	00:01
Dab202	thanks	00:01
nikolam	Dab202, also take a look at the unetbootin to make bootable usb drive : http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ , can make usb bootable drives out of already-existing .iso`s	00:29
mikubuntu	TheSheep: you suggested that i get ubufox to fix some download preferences, i lookd for it in synaptic and its showing that its already installed... i noticed there were firefox updates in the last couple days, could this be a bug associated with the updates?	00:38
mikubuntu	TheSheep: instead of offering to 'open with application', firefox only wants to offer me to save files	00:39
CppIsWeird	after upgrading to 8.10, my xubuntu boot gets stuck on "* Starting basic networking..." QUITE frequently, I have to reboot 5 or 6 times to get it to fully boot.	00:49
CppIsWeird	up to rebooting 11 times now.	01:13
zChris__	CppIsWeird: weird	01:15
XFCEntral	#ubuntu-server	01:16
=== sancas_ is now known as sancas
CppIsWeird	zChris__: yeah, i pretty much figured that out on my own (15)	01:24
zChris__	CppIsWeird: its really weird	01:25
zChris__	CppIsWeird: checked the logs ?	01:25
CppIsWeird	cant get that far	01:25
zChris__	hmm	01:25
zChris__	no safemode for linux ?	01:25
zChris__	DHCP?	01:25
CppIsWeird	cant get that far.	01:26
zChris__	?	01:26
CppIsWeird	oh, thats in grub, nvm	01:26
zChris__	:D	01:26
zChris__	CppIsWeird: How is your network setup ?	01:27
CppIsWeird	the network cable is unplugged even	01:27
zChris__	CppIsWeird: isit set on DHCP?	01:27
CppIsWeird	yes	01:28
zChris__	tried booting it when its plugged in so it can retrieve a ip ?	01:28
CppIsWeird	yes, it started out plugged in... ive unplugged it as an attempt to fix it.	01:29
zChris__	hmm it dosent reboot automaticly, you get tired and reboot it right ?	01:30
CppIsWeird	yep	01:30
zChris__	CppIsWeird: how long have you waited?	01:31
CppIsWeird	ive left it for like 20 minutes once, still nothing	01:31
zChris__	ah oeky	01:31
zChris__	CppIsWeird: do you use grub ?	01:32
Derek_S	Hi !	02:06
Derek_S	Running xfce for the 1st time	02:07
Derek_S	and doing so on a persistent usb key	02:07
Derek_S	anyway...	02:07
Derek_S	since I m using xubuntu on a netbook which has a low vertical resolution	02:07
Derek_S	I did move the menu bar located on the bottom of the screen to the left of the screen	02:08
Derek_S	and something just acts strangely compared to the default Gnome behaviour (well at a later stage this produces bugs but that's a different story) :	02:08
Derek_S	the later cliked on bar goes over the other one	02:09
Derek_S	as in gnome the (new in that position) left bar wouldn' take the space where the upper bar is located	02:10
Derek_S	shrinking in a way	02:10
Derek_S	I hope I'm clear enough to be understood :/	02:10
XFCEntral	so you're trying to move the menu bars around, where usually there is one on the top and another at the bottom?	02:12
Derek_S	exactly	02:12
Derek_S	trying to move the bottom one to the left	02:12
XFCEntral	okay. and then the other (the top) decides to cover it	02:12
Derek_S	it actually works, except that both bars share the same upper left space	02:12
XFCEntral	oooh	02:12
XFCEntral	so theyre overlapping	02:12
Derek_S	(and when the upper bar covers the left bar, it also hides some icons)	02:13
Derek_S	yep	02:13
XFCEntral	i see	02:13
XFCEntral	i just tried it out on my desktop	02:13
Derek_S	I m really a newbie :)	02:13
XFCEntral	i also tried making one of the menu bars variable length to see if i could adjust it to the point where it doesnt cover...	02:14
XFCEntral	no such luck	02:14
XFCEntral	no problem!	02:14
Derek_S	under XP I used to have the bar on the left too	02:14
Derek_S	and well when I first tried gnome	02:14
Derek_S	I did the same	02:14
Derek_S	the overlapping trouble doesn't occur	02:14
Derek_S	BUT	02:14
Derek_S	moving the lower bar to the side	02:14
Derek_S	produces hanging and freezes randomly	02:14
Derek_S	hence I m trying xfce :)	02:14
Derek_S	and well	02:14
XFCEntral	ooh really? hmm	02:14
Derek_S	it s tempting	02:15
Derek_S	I must confess ^^	02:15
Derek_S	I also should add that I m running jaunty alpha 5	02:15
XFCEntral	oh i see	02:15
Derek_S	(since Ibex doesn't work out of the box on my netbook)	02:15
XFCEntral	im running GNOME and Xfce on Ubuntu 8.10	02:15
XFCEntral	what netbook do you have?	02:15
Derek_S	Samsung NC10	02:15
XFCEntral	oh cool. ive got eeeXubuntu running on my Asus Eee 701	02:16
XFCEntral	its Xubuntu 7.10 basically. haha	02:16
Derek_S	frankly I really like my netbbok	02:16
Derek_S	the keybvoard is very nice	02:16
Derek_S	the touchpad is somewhat little but there's a cool feature under XP that makes it up for it	02:16
XFCEntral	oh yeah? is it closer to full-size than the other netbooks? most people find my Eee's keyboard too small to type on. its fine for me	02:17
Derek_S	(I don't think such a thing does exist yet for linux)	02:17
Derek_S	yep	02:17
XFCEntral	how does it fix that?	02:17
Derek_S	10 inch screen	02:17
XFCEntral	nice	02:17
Derek_S	and the keyboard is really usable	02:17
XFCEntral	ive got the "old" 7in screen haha	02:17
Derek_S	well it kind of "emulates" a trackball behaviour	02:17
Derek_S	so your finger movements have inertia	02:17
XFCEntral	hmm i think thats called acceleration when you set that up. im not sure though	02:18
Derek_S	nope :)	02:18
Derek_S	that s something different ;)	02:18
XFCEntral	ohh. not the slightest clue then haha	02:18
Derek_S	it s really inertia	02:18
Derek_S	acceleration allows you to cover a larger portion of the screen	02:18
Derek_S	would you move the finger fast	02:18
XFCEntral	so the cursor continues on relative to the force you use?	02:18
Derek_S	exactly	02:18
XFCEntral	hmm neat	02:18
Derek_S	I think so	02:19
Derek_S	a cool idea by samsung really	02:19
Derek_S	but well	02:19
XFCEntral	yeah ive never thought of that	02:19
Derek_S	they are releasing a new version of the netbook	02:19
Derek_S	with a larger touchpad :)	02:19
Derek_S	in the end the only limitation of that computer	02:19
Derek_S	is it s screen resolution...	02:19
Derek_S	as for most netbooks :)	02:19
Derek_S	600 vertical pixels	02:19
XFCEntral	yes true	02:19
XFCEntral	ooooh	02:19
Derek_S	that is sometimes limitating	02:20
XFCEntral	yeah my Eee has 800x480 i believe	02:20
Derek_S	(that s also why I want to move bars around ^^)	02:20
Derek_S	1024 x 600 here	02:20
Derek_S	I think I could do with 1 more inch	02:20
Derek_S	to reach 1200 x 800	02:20
Derek_S	but still	02:20
XFCEntral	true	02:20
Derek_S	I m VERY pleased with my netbook	02:20
XFCEntral	ive been trying different things with the toolbars and cant seem to fix that overlap	02:21
Derek_S	of course with its resolution it can only be a second comp'	02:21
XFCEntral	thats good, mine really comes in handy to take with me to class	02:21
Derek_S	hehe same thing here, I throw it in a bag	02:21
Derek_S	typing with 10 fingers on the keyboard was a must for me	02:21
XFCEntral	yup. smaller than most of my books	02:21
XFCEntral	yeahh	02:21
XFCEntral	i do have a tiny keyboard but i got used to it right away and now im back up to speed by now	02:22
Derek_S	even the WIND (with a 9 inch screen) keyboard was not confy enough for my big fingers :)	02:22
Derek_S	and my bad habits	02:22
XFCEntral	ive yet to try the WIND	02:22
Derek_S	well rather try the sammy ;)	02:22
Derek_S	the battery lifetime is also quite good	02:22
XFCEntral	whatever HP is selling seemed awkward to me... extremely awkward	02:22
XFCEntral	oh yeah?	02:22
Derek_S	yep	02:22
Derek_S	more than 4 hours without doing anything to save power	02:23
XFCEntral	ive got the camera off in the BIOS and i get about 3 hours i guess	02:23
XFCEntral	nice	02:23
Derek_S	you can beath the 5h barrier using tricks	02:23
XFCEntral	thats enough to get through a day of class	02:23
Derek_S	you should definitely hunt for some reviews :)	02:23
Derek_S	and btw	02:23
XFCEntral	definitely	02:24
Derek_S	I m not a Samsung salesman :)	02:24
XFCEntral	haha	02:24
XFCEntral	no worries	02:24
XFCEntral	ive sold so many Eee's in the past year, Asus owes me commission. i just... talk about it	02:24
Derek_S	so about that behaviour	02:24
XFCEntral	but i guess people love the idea in general	02:24
Derek_S	do you thing it should be reported ?	02:24
XFCEntral	yeahh im not finding a work around	02:24
Derek_S	*think	02:24
XFCEntral	id see it more as an oversight in the way it should function than a bug	02:24
Derek_S	gnome does behave differently	02:25
XFCEntral	as far as Xfce is concerned	02:25
Derek_S	and rightfully in my eyes I m afraid to say	02:25
Derek_S	(but since it kind of crashes the system, you can guess why I don't want to use it ^^ )	02:25
XFCEntral	yeahhh. after a big RAM upgrade i went back to using GNOME on my desktop. if it can handle it all comfortable, of course i use that. but i use Xfce on the tiny netbook and again on the desktop to help with testing	02:26
XFCEntral	im with you on the crashing	02:26
Derek_S	I guess moving the bars to sides will gain in popularity with netbooks	02:26
Derek_S	you try every trick possible to save vertical space :)	02:26
XFCEntral	oh i know about that. haha	02:26
XFCEntral	no status bars, small icons in all apps	02:27
XFCEntral	one menu bar	02:27
XFCEntral	you know you can reduce it to one right?	02:27
Derek_S	hmmm	02:27
XFCEntral	my tiny Eee is set up like that	02:27
Derek_S	you mean to using only one bar ?	02:27
XFCEntral	Application menu all the way to the left, a few launcher icons, my task list (programs) and far right i have the clock and systray	02:28
XFCEntral	yes	02:28
XFCEntral	its plenty of space on that tiny screen	02:28
Derek_S	well I didn't know	02:28
Derek_S	and what about moving the icons in the left bar ?	02:28
Derek_S	so none would be masked by overlapping	02:28
Derek_S	not a very clean solution, but one I could live with ^^	02:29
XFCEntral	you could add a Separator/Spacing on the left bar before the icons to push them down, but they seem to go down too far...	02:29
Derek_S	I tried KDE some weeks ago, definitely too confusing for me :)	02:30
Derek_S	hmm	02:30
Derek_S	well then I might try your solution	02:31
XFCEntral	yeahh not personally a fan of KDE	02:31
Derek_S	how do you move the icons from the "left" bar to the upper ones ?	02:31
XFCEntral	also, try the toolbar as "Normal Width" instead of Full Width	02:31
Derek_S	(provided you can do so)	02:31
XFCEntral	so you want them on a single toolbar?	02:31
Derek_S	yep	02:31
Derek_S	btw just a quick point	02:31
XFCEntral	ohh, just RightClick > Move to the other toolbar in place	02:32
Derek_S	under windows I use the starting bar on the left	02:32
XFCEntral	mhm	02:32
Derek_S	since it enables to have more app windows	02:32
Derek_S	to be seen at the same time	02:32
Derek_S	so it s way quicker to change the active window	02:32
Derek_S	since all of them can be seen on the bar	02:32
XFCEntral	yeahhh the Task List they call it in Xfce	02:32
XFCEntral	you can place that on the right side of you Applications menu	02:33
XFCEntral	or, if you have icons such as Firefox etc next to the Applications menu, place your Task List (open applications list) just to the right of those	02:33
Derek_S	well	02:34
Derek_S	following your advice	02:34
XFCEntral	suppose you move everything to the top MenuBar. youll need to know theres a Spacer up there keeping your menu and your clock apart. right click the empty space and remove the separator/spacing	02:34
Derek_S	I moved all icons from the original bottom bar to the upper one	02:34
XFCEntral	the TaskList will provide the separation	02:34
XFCEntral	something go wrong?	02:34
Derek_S	I wonder if there s any use having the trashbin handy I must confess :)	02:34
XFCEntral	ohh. you can remove that and use the one on the desktop	02:35
Derek_S	so far so good	02:35
Derek_S	trying to remove the now empty bar :)	02:35
XFCEntral	i believe the Trash applet (menu bar) uses system resources	02:35
Derek_S	found it	02:36
Derek_S	just press minus	02:36
Derek_S	in some configuring menu :)	02:36
XFCEntral	to remove the panel? yup	02:36
Derek_S	now trying to move the remaining bar to the side	02:36
XFCEntral	just one left	02:36
XFCEntral	?	02:37
Derek_S	yep	02:37
Derek_S	hmm	02:37
Derek_S	looks akward	02:37
Derek_S	some icons are too big	02:37
XFCEntral	the text running sideways and all that	02:37
XFCEntral	ohh	02:37
XFCEntral	you can adjust the panel size, that may help	02:38
Derek_S	hmm	02:39
Derek_S	the larger the bar is	02:39
Derek_S	the more vertical space icons use	02:39
Derek_S	(since they grow bigger )	02:39
XFCEntral	right	02:39
Brad450	anyone here have a PS3	02:40
Brad450	?	02:40
Derek_S	nope Brad450 but you can send yours to me ;-)	02:40
XFCEntral	ive tried it out by making the one toolbar on the leftside, and making it "Normal Width." it seems decent	02:40
XFCEntral	btw Derek_S, does your Applications menu say "Applications" after the icon?	02:41
Derek_S	well	02:41
Derek_S	it says	02:41
Derek_S	Appli :)	02:41
XFCEntral	haha	02:41
Derek_S	but that s ok with me :)	02:41
XFCEntral	right click that menu	02:41
=== sinister- is now known as Sinister
Derek_S	well that does offer some tunings	02:42
Derek_S	but I don't know which one would help :)	02:43
XFCEntral	untick the box that says show name or something to that effect	02:43
XFCEntral	you can make it show only the icon and save some space	02:43
Derek_S	ah right	02:43
Derek_S	actually it would be nice to have the icons in a smaller size	02:43
Brad450	how can i install a kernal update. will it make things run faster. iam on a PS3 so its s little hard lol and what exactly is "compileing"	02:43
Derek_S	forcing them to be says 32x32 or any figure that would work	02:44
Derek_S	wow Brad450 you're my hero :)	02:44
Derek_S	I didn't know you could run xubuntu with a ps3	02:44
XFCEntral	yeahh you can run Linux on quite a lot of devices	02:45
XFCEntral	with a little extra effort	02:45
Derek_S	(trying to reduce those icons, such as the bluetooth one)	02:45
XFCEntral	even Nintendo DS devices, I've got Linux on my Palm T\|X	02:45
Derek_S	lol	02:45
XFCEntral	so you want the panel size to remain the size it is, but reduce the size of the icons?	02:46
Derek_S	well I m not sure it s very handy but it s a nice challenge	02:46
Derek_S	exactly	02:46
XFCEntral	right, its mostly for fun	02:46
Derek_S	I picked a 40 pixels width for now	02:46
Derek_S	(32 would have been my 1st choice but well it might be too little)	02:46
Derek_S	and I ve got 5 icons eating the half of the height	02:47
Brad450	wheres charlie_tca or zoredache	02:47
XFCEntral	wow	02:47
XFCEntral	and they are?	02:47
Derek_S	trashbin, show desktop, bluetooth, wireless connection, xchat, sound	02:47
Derek_S	ok that s 7	02:47
Derek_S	STILL ;)	02:47
XFCEntral	and how many vertical pixels do you have?	02:48
Derek_S	total ? 600	02:49
Derek_S	I d like to have the default icons available even in tiny size	02:49
Derek_S	so I could see say 4 5 tasks	02:49
XFCEntral	okay	02:50
Derek_S	I can't believe I m the first one to have such demands :)	02:50
Derek_S	it all seems logical to me :)	02:51
XFCEntral	I'm running Xfce on my Eee right now and I see what you what you mean about it taking up all that space...	02:51
XFCEntral	having the panel at 40 definitely ruins that haha	02:51
Derek_S	hehe	02:51
Derek_S	well yes, you would like the icons to stay as tiny	02:51
Derek_S	as they are with a smaller width	02:51
XFCEntral	at 24 theyre pretty small	02:52
Derek_S	best would be to have two rows	02:52
Derek_S	so for instance	02:52
Derek_S	you d have a 48 pixels width	02:52
Derek_S	with 2 24 rows	02:52
Derek_S	I can understand it s not possible as of now, but I would definitely recommand the great guys developping would consider this evolution	02:53
XFCEntral	well you might try two 24width panels then	02:53
Derek_S	as it s a matter of optimisation for us, netbook users :)	02:53
Derek_S	hehehe	02:53
XFCEntral	mhm	02:53
Derek_S	good idea :)	02:53
XFCEntral	i think theres a nice netbook interface you can get from the repositories	02:53
Derek_S	well I must admit I m kind of "racist" when it comes to specific interfaces :)	02:54
Derek_S	that s all prejudices	02:54
Derek_S	but I d rather adapt a universal solution	02:54
Derek_S	so I would think I could do everything	02:54
XFCEntral	haha most users are that particular about desktop environments, i think youll find	02:54
Derek_S	rather than trying an already optimised netbook environnement that would not be working in specific situations	02:55
XFCEntral	looks like the "two 24width panels" thing wont work	02:55
XFCEntral	i know you can stack panels in GNOME	02:55
Derek_S	I propose	02:55
Derek_S	we would ransom some popular xubuntu developper	02:55
XFCEntral	you know what, im having a problem right now, too. my App menu won't let me right click it to move it! at all. no right-click action. lol ill need to restart or log-out and back in perhaps...	02:56
Derek_S	and only let him go after we gain some support for our netbooks ;)	02:56
XFCEntral	haha	02:56
XFCEntral	well really the features you see in Xubuntu in relation to the desktop are inherited from Xfce	02:56
XFCEntral	the desktop environment	02:57
Derek_S	it s always frustrating to consider that XP behaves better in a specific respect	02:57
XFCEntral	Xubuntu is simply Ubuntu running Xfce instead	02:57
Derek_S	the bar behaviour on the side isn't perfect, but works very well most of the time	02:57
Derek_S	and little width isn't a problem	02:57
XFCEntral	yeahhh	02:57
Derek_S	it "auto optimizes" quite well	02:58
Derek_S	I m not saying	02:58
Derek_S	you should install XP to check :)	02:58
XFCEntral	tell me what you think about this setup: http://weblogs2.nrc.nl/hebben/wp-content/uploads/06_2008/ubuntu_netbook_remix_flickr_njpatel.jpg	02:58
XFCEntral	ive used XP	02:58
XFCEntral	i finally erased it recently since I don't have a need for it on my hard disk ;-) hehe	02:58
Derek_S	you lucky man	02:58
XFCEntral	like most people I came from windows to linux	02:58
XFCEntral	i wonder who out there was raised on Linux since they were a kid	02:59
Derek_S	I m trying to escape too	02:59
XFCEntral	besides my future children	02:59
Derek_S	well some do start with ubuntu	02:59
Derek_S	for total newbies	02:59
Derek_S	it can work	02:59
Derek_S	think of grandmas	02:59
Derek_S	that want to do some surfing	02:59
Derek_S	emailing	02:59
Derek_S	and maybe some word processing	02:59
Derek_S	ubuntu might be simpler in the end	03:00
XFCEntral	ohh. i guess everyone from my generation who has already started used win 3.1 or 95 or 98, 2000 and so on... at some point, and then MAYBE they discovered Linux	03:00
Derek_S	no worries with firewalls or antivirus	03:00
XFCEntral	very few of my friends and classmates even know what Linux is. haha	03:00
Derek_S	it s still relatively geek/ for programmers	03:01
XFCEntral	well with any installation i would definitely pay attention to configuring my firewall properly, especially if youre not behind a NAT Router/Firewall etc	03:01
Derek_S	but it is making huge progress	03:01
XFCEntral	yeahhh its nice to see that	03:01
Derek_S	besides Microsoft does many things to boost linux :)	03:01
XFCEntral	hehe	03:02
Derek_S	at some point you want to escape the limitations imposed by an editor	03:02
Derek_S	such as throwing your peripherals because you re chaging	03:02
Derek_S	OS	03:02
XFCEntral	well i think a lot of people have been let down by Vista and they find that using a free alternative like Linux is a good idea in tougher economic times, as opposed to choosing a very expensive Macbook	03:02
XFCEntral	yeahhh	03:02
Derek_S	(I remember I had that laser canon printer that wouldn't work with XP )	03:02
Derek_S	(it worked fine with	03:03
XFCEntral	I like having control with Linux. Every once in a while, I'd have a look at my XP install, and I'd feel suffocated. haha	03:03
Derek_S	98 / 95 )	03:03
XFCEntral	ohh	03:03
Derek_S	well the trouble with xp also is that it "degenerates"	03:03
Derek_S	the more you use it, the less it s working :)	03:03
XFCEntral	yup	03:03
Derek_S	and linux has some cool features	03:04
Derek_S	such as auto defragmenting	03:04
Derek_S	not to mention the automatisation you can work on using the command line	03:04
XFCEntral	well the filesystems you might use on Linux will definitely be more resistant to the behavior that requires defrag (with Wins NTFS)	03:04
Derek_S	you know I m longing to find some evolution of current eeebox and equivalents	03:04
Derek_S	with esata ports	03:04
Derek_S	an HDMI port	03:05
Derek_S	and why not enough power to run a HD movie (that s not a must)	03:05
XFCEntral	true	03:05
Derek_S	that would definitely push me in learning linux enough	03:05
Derek_S	to have my own web/file/ftp/mail server	03:05
XFCEntral	its been a lot of fun learning Linux, for me. the most fun ive ever had in my life	03:05
Derek_S	the low consumming 24 hours a day running PC	03:06
Derek_S	don't say that!	03:06
XFCEntral	haha say what?	03:06
Derek_S	I can't believe it :)	03:06
XFCEntral	ohh	03:06
Derek_S	it might be cool :)	03:06
XFCEntral	no really, its very rewarding for me	03:06
Derek_S	but the most fun ?!	03:06
XFCEntral	eh	03:06
XFCEntral	alright there are plenty of fun things for me to do	03:06
XFCEntral	and a lot of them i can do outside, too. haha	03:06
Derek_S	I d say partying with friends learning how to get drunk when I was a teen	03:07
Derek_S	was more fun that linux could ever be ;)	03:07
XFCEntral	but if i had to do one of my hobbies for a living... itd be with Linux	03:07
XFCEntral	hey i had a few beers with my buddies while I set up their web/email server for their small business. haha	03:07
XFCEntral	its all the experience you make of it	03:07
Derek_S	haha	03:07
Derek_S	sure it s the usage you can make of it	03:08
Derek_S	hosting your own website/Forum	03:08
Derek_S	and doing it for friends	03:08
XFCEntral	the effort Linux might require isnt unique to Linux--many things require studying and practice. like martial arts. but once you reach a certain point of mastery it can be extremely rewarding. youll see!	03:08
Derek_S	(that would kill you would it go offline for more than 10 minutes :) )	03:08
XFCEntral	haha	03:08
Derek_S	well I ve some DOS experience	03:09
Derek_S	I also did play with regular expressions some years ago	03:09
Derek_S	I think I can feel linux's power :)	03:09
XFCEntral	I think you'll find the command line in Linux is much more powerful	03:09
XFCEntral	the more you learn, its more power to you	03:09
Derek_S	but it remains somewhat hard to get into standing from where I am :)	03:09
Derek_S	I mean	03:10
Derek_S	I want to learn	03:10
Derek_S	that s why I have a double boot on my netbook	03:10
Derek_S	but there remains some annoying bugs	03:10
XFCEntral	yeahh. i dual-booted linux and windows for the longest time	03:10
Derek_S	hopefully jaunty will remove most of them	03:10
Derek_S	but that s a couple of months to wait	03:10
XFCEntral	over time i used Win less and Linux more	03:10
XFCEntral	yeahhh	03:10
Derek_S	as for my desktop computer...	03:11
Derek_S	well it s an antiquity :)	03:11
XFCEntral	ive heard great things already about Karmic Koala, the release following Jaunty	03:11
XFCEntral	haha	03:11
Derek_S	I m waiting for Windows 7 to consider getting a new one	03:11
XFCEntral	old computers can often times work better with the right Linux distro	03:11
Derek_S	well I want to get rid of it :)	03:11
Derek_S	you know the story	03:11
XFCEntral	ohh well theres always that too	03:11
Derek_S	it s been like 2 years that I m considering changing	03:12
XFCEntral	ive just got about 8 I keep around still haha	03:12
Derek_S	I got the money as of now	03:12
Derek_S	but wedll	03:12
XFCEntral	my desktop ive had since 2006	03:12
Derek_S	mine has 7 years !	03:12
XFCEntral	well thats pushing it perhaps. haha	03:12
Derek_S	XP 1900+ / 1 GB	03:12
XFCEntral	a few hardware upgrades and you could be set	03:12
Derek_S	it must be as powerful as my netbook lol	03:12
Derek_S	well I m dreaming of the last Intel baby	03:13
XFCEntral	in the case of my desktop, i quadrupled my RAM (512mb to 2gb) and replaced the monitor speakers and keyboard	03:13
Derek_S	since I tend to have tons of apps running at the same time	03:13
XFCEntral	yeahhh	03:13
Derek_S	I can use 100 firefox tabs simultaneously	03:13
XFCEntral	shite haha	03:13
Derek_S	and would I be able to compress video	03:13
Derek_S	and listen to mp3s at the same time	03:13
Derek_S	I would be a happy user :)	03:13
Derek_S	oh	03:14
Derek_S	and my desktop is 1600 x 1200	03:14
XFCEntral	niice. im up from 1024x768 to 1440x900	03:14
Derek_S	when I told that to a mozilla guy	03:14
Derek_S	he had those round eyes :)	03:14
XFCEntral	haha	03:14
XFCEntral	i know what you mean	03:14
Derek_S	"ah right well you're not the typical user you know"	03:14
Derek_S	well there are many sites I like to follow	03:15
Derek_S	news	03:15
Derek_S	weather	03:15
Derek_S	blogs	03:15
Derek_S	forums	03:15
XFCEntral	yeahh exactly	03:15
Derek_S	and I like to be able to just refresh	03:15
Derek_S	the windows	03:15
XFCEntral	ive got the weather in my desktop panel	03:15
Derek_S	to see what are the changes	03:15
XFCEntral	there are applets for updating your RSS feeds and so on	03:15
Derek_S	well I must confess	03:16
Derek_S	I should try RSS feeds	03:16
XFCEntral	yeahhh. and then place the feeds along your Firefox bookmarks toolbar	03:16
Derek_S	well you know	03:16
XFCEntral	drop down the menu to see what the latest posts/news are	03:16
Derek_S	it s lie those bookmarks	03:16
Derek_S	I have a full attic of bookmarks to sort :)	03:16
Derek_S	the kind of thing you are never pleased to do :)	03:17
Derek_S	it s like you would spend a whole day doing it	03:17
Derek_S	would be happy of having done it	03:17
Derek_S	and you would be unable of giving an explication of what you d have done from your time	03:17
Derek_S	to another person	03:18
Derek_S	the day you d do that ;)	03:18
Derek_S	it s like reinstalling windows and all of your apps :)	03:18
Derek_S	it would take me days	03:18
Derek_S	and well it might just take me days in the coming days since I should change my system disk :)	03:18
Derek_S	( my old 40GB deskstar is running full and running tired)	03:19
Derek_S	so ironically I might end being able to have ubuntu run on my desktop computer before changing PCs	03:19
Derek_S	(as for the ubuntu netbook remix interface, well it looks confusing as it looks different)	03:20
XFCEntral	haha	03:22
Derek_S	btw where are you living ?	03:23
XFCEntral	yeahhh the netbook remix is... different and i havent used it personally	03:23
XFCEntral	florida (us)	03:23
Derek_S	you should have a better weather than here in Paris ;)	03:23
Derek_S	(France)	03:23
Derek_S	(	03:23
XFCEntral	how is it?	03:24
Derek_S	well I m unsure you get Celsius temperatures :/	03:24
Derek_S	and I can't do the conversions	03:24
Derek_S	but say it s chilly	03:24
Derek_S	and grey	03:24
Derek_S	though right now	03:24
Derek_S	it s more black than grey	03:25
XFCEntral	its 16C here	03:25
Derek_S	since it s night time :)	03:25
XFCEntral	yeahhh	03:25
Derek_S	it s nice you do the support in your time zone :)	03:25
XFCEntral	11:25pm here	03:25
XFCEntral	yeah! well i try to be on this channel as much as possible. every so often its a big help for someone	03:26
XFCEntral	this support could be the difference between their computer working the way they need it or... not	03:26
Derek_S	that s the nice thing about x/k/ubuntu	03:26
Derek_S	exactly	03:26
Derek_S	though I must say	03:26
Derek_S	I ve been to the local 8.10 launch party	03:26
Derek_S	and the friendly aspect of the community	03:27
Derek_S	can turn frightening at times :)	03:27
XFCEntral	haha	03:27
XFCEntral	too friendly is it?	03:27
Derek_S	well	03:27
Derek_S	you were speaking of martial arts earlier	03:27
XFCEntral	yes	03:27
Derek_S	well there was some kind of a "sect" (proper word ?) aspect	03:28
Derek_S	in the way the way of behaving was described	03:28
XFCEntral	oooh i see	03:28
XFCEntral	like a cult?	03:28
XFCEntral	or a secret group? haha	03:28
Derek_S	especially in the fact you shouldn't argue	03:28
XFCEntral	ohh. so im guessing they didnt accept your opinions that XP may work better for you in some ways	03:28
Derek_S	not secret, but respecting a code of conduct	03:28
XFCEntral	okay	03:28
Derek_S	to a point where it might be a little over the top	03:29
Derek_S	oh not at all	03:29
Derek_S	I didn't had any troubles	03:29
XFCEntral	oh okay	03:29
XFCEntral	just wondering, sometimes thats an issue	03:29
Derek_S	It s just the way a fellow community member	03:29
Derek_S	recognised	03:29
Derek_S	who reached a certain "rank"	03:29
Derek_S	(that thing too)	03:29
Derek_S	would talk of the community spirit	03:29
XFCEntral	ohh like seeing certain Linux users as being at an expert level etc	03:30
Derek_S	well they ve got funny names	03:30
Derek_S	with a certain distance too	03:30
XFCEntral	well in the Linux community especially, I think, being very skilled is seen as a great thing	03:30
Derek_S	master of the universe	03:30
Derek_S	and so on	03:30
XFCEntral	haha	03:30
XFCEntral	i know what you mean	03:30
Derek_S	(I don't think they take it too seriously : ) )	03:30
Derek_S	(I hope anywya :) )	03:30
Derek_S	anyway	03:31
Derek_S	but I m just nitpicking	03:31
XFCEntral	haha its okay	03:31
Derek_S	the bottomline was that I was very pleased by the discussions and support I got during that week-end	03:31
XFCEntral	thats great	03:31
Derek_S	yes such events are really great	03:32
Derek_S	because it s rewarding for community members	03:32
Derek_S	and they can meet and party too	03:32
XFCEntral	Linux users very often are super-enthusiastic about their system and Linux in general, and that should work out in your favor--they are eager to help you	03:32
XFCEntral	oh yeah we party	03:32
Derek_S	and also they re helping noobs as me :)	03:32
XFCEntral	you know, without paying for software, i have plenty of extra money for beer... haha	03:32
Derek_S	lol	03:32
Derek_S	that s a good line :)	03:32
XFCEntral	its not my own, i have to say. haha	03:33
Derek_S	you makeme think	03:33
Derek_S	after free software	03:33
Derek_S	free brewering ^	03:33
Derek_S	^ ^	03:33
XFCEntral	yessss	03:33
XFCEntral	its the only logical next step	03:33
Derek_S	I can imagine that	03:33
Derek_S	well I must also say	03:34
Derek_S	the cool thing about free software	03:34
Derek_S	is that s it s also ideology embeded	03:34
Derek_S	it s out of the usual tracks	03:34
Derek_S	and helps people broadening the way they are seeing world and society	03:34
XFCEntral	absolutely	03:34
Derek_S	it s not all about merchandise and money	03:34
XFCEntral	its a different way of doing things	03:35
XFCEntral	im writing a paper on the open source model right now for an economics class	03:35
Derek_S	hmm interesting	03:35
Derek_S	what is your "angle" in this paper ?	03:35
XFCEntral	it is, if i had to pick a topic that wouldnt kill me to write about, open source software would be on that list	03:35
Derek_S	open source directly question the branding rights	03:36
Derek_S	and copyright itself	03:36
XFCEntral	well a lot of people are unaware that this free and open source software exists. mainly, i introduce it and its benefits, how the open source model must be carried out to be successful, and also how and why corporations try to hurt the growth of FOSS software	03:36
Derek_S	we ve been hammered for decades if not centuries	03:36
Derek_S	that copyrights are a way to protect investments and research	03:37
Derek_S	but it s way more complex :)	03:37
XFCEntral	haha yeahh	03:37
XFCEntral	its not a simple issue	03:37
Derek_S	you know the question	03:37
Derek_S	of even moral rights	03:37
Derek_S	I mean the right of the creators	03:37
XFCEntral	right	03:38
Derek_S	such as for writers or composers	03:38
Derek_S	it has been questionned in history	03:38
Derek_S	we re living in a dominant model that can be questionned	03:38
Derek_S	some have said that as soon as piece of art / work is made public	03:38
Derek_S	it belongs to the public	03:38
Derek_S	the whole idea of copyrighting concepts seem crazy to my European eyes :)	03:39
XFCEntral	haha	03:39
XFCEntral	so you dont mind that software can be owned by no one, and that the public creates and maintains it?	03:39
Derek_S	lol of course I don't mind	03:39
XFCEntral	good!	03:40
Derek_S	and the whole licensing ideas are great	03:40
Derek_S	the concept of imposing sharing code for using open source code	03:40
Derek_S	that s a f***ing great one !	03:40
XFCEntral	i agree	03:40
Derek_S	it s really radical	03:40
XFCEntral	yeahhh for some its hard to understand how it works and to agree with you that its okay	03:41
Derek_S	when you think that many many business	03:41
XFCEntral	they think the only way is to charge and enforce copyright laws	03:41
Derek_S	work on taking advantage of positive externalities	03:41
Derek_S	and taking advantage of not assuming the negative produced	03:41
Derek_S	(such as pollution)	03:41
XFCEntral	right	03:42
Derek_S	hmmm that makes me think	03:42
Derek_S	have you seen that documentary	03:42
Derek_S	I think it s called	03:42
Derek_S	"the corporation"	03:42
XFCEntral	no i have not	03:42
Derek_S	it s about analyzing companies	03:42
Derek_S	as a person	03:42
Derek_S	using a psychanalistic grid	03:42
XFCEntral	hmm thats interesting	03:43
Derek_S	let met check if Igot the name right	03:43
XFCEntral	ive never thought of it that way--psychoanalysis as if the corporation were and individual	03:43
XFCEntral	*an	03:43
Derek_S	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation	03:44
Derek_S	well believe me	03:44
Derek_S	it s freaky	03:44
XFCEntral	oh! ive seen that cover before	03:44
Derek_S	:)	03:45
XFCEntral	that documentary and a lot of what we just spoke about, happens to be the topics of discussion in my Public Choice class	03:45
XFCEntral	the economics class i told you about	03:45
Derek_S	well that s nice	03:46
Derek_S	interesting topics really	03:46
XFCEntral	yeahh. out of all i have taken in 3 years there, its been one of the most thought-provoking courses	03:46
XFCEntral	you know of alexis de tocqueville?	03:46
Derek_S	I d recommend you d also watch "Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media"	03:46
XFCEntral	ill look into that	03:46
Derek_S	well yes but I ve not really read him	03:47
XFCEntral	oh okay. we just discussed his theories recently	03:47
Derek_S	and I m not joking	03:47
Derek_S	but reading Bourdieu changed my whole world vision	03:47
XFCEntral	we were talking about entrepreneurs	03:47
Derek_S	dunno if his rightly translated though	03:47
Derek_S	he's	03:47
XFCEntral	i see	03:47
Derek_S	I wonder if "questions de sociologie" has been translated	03:48
Derek_S	that would definitely the book I would recommend for a start	03:48
Derek_S	the guy is like linux	03:48
Derek_S	terrible to get into	03:48
XFCEntral	i could look	03:48
XFCEntral	haha	03:48
Derek_S	but you don't have anything as rewarding	03:49
XFCEntral	i know that story though--and ive gotten into linux haha	03:49
Derek_S	reading him makes you actually more clever	03:49
Derek_S	I also love a French director but well he s relatively unknown here and I doubt he s been translated	03:50
XFCEntral	Bourdieu then? I'll have to read up on him. so far i see he is a sociologist. i really enjoyed sociology	03:50
Derek_S	well I didn't learn it in school or college	03:50
Derek_S	so I bumped into that later than I would have wanted :)	03:50
XFCEntral	yeahhh. unfortunately we tend to hear about those topics only in college here	03:50
XFCEntral	unless you come about it through private study	03:51
Derek_S	well here they re trying to cut those studies	03:51
Derek_S	hmm	03:51
Derek_S	how to make it fast and clear...	03:51
Derek_S	well the current government is conservative and with a dangerous ideology	03:52
Derek_S	you know the story	03:52
Derek_S	cutting all state expense	03:52
XFCEntral	right	03:52
Derek_S	even if the global cost for Society	03:52
XFCEntral	theyre cutting Florida's educational spending by millions here	03:52
Derek_S	are to be much higher in the end	03:53
XFCEntral	and they're probably 50th out of 50 in spending already...	03:53
XFCEntral	i agree	03:53
XFCEntral	they dont seem to care...	03:53
Derek_S	and well what is education worth ?	03:53
Derek_S	you don't want people to think	03:53
Derek_S	they could get that they are imposed a way of living	03:53
Derek_S	that are not making them happy	03:53
Derek_S	and think it could be nice to change some things	03:53
Derek_S	it s better everything stays hidden or unquestionned	03:54
XFCEntral	so the strategy is to keep them uninformed	03:54
Derek_S	yes	03:54
Derek_S	and they would say education's purpose	03:54
Derek_S	is to provide job ready citizens	03:54
Derek_S	we ve got relative high unemployment	03:54
Derek_S	long studies have been a mean to avoid seeing the unemployment rate raise	03:55
Derek_S	for a long period	03:55
XFCEntral	i see. so something would be out of line with their logic...	03:55
Derek_S	in the end it s always better to have people learn instead of being paid the minimal social revenues	03:55
Derek_S	so they wouldn't totally starve	03:55
Derek_S	(those helps are also a way to ensure people do not question the social order)	03:56
XFCEntral	absolutely	03:56
Derek_S	(it s a good thing, but it has not be given out of total generosity)	03:56
Derek_S	and now	03:56
Derek_S	they want to cut the whole education system costs	03:56
Derek_S	it s not like the education system could create jobs in the job market	03:57
Derek_S	by some kind of magic	03:57
Derek_S	at least not by hundreds of thousands	03:57
Derek_S	it s all very conservative really	03:57
XFCEntral	yeahh	03:57
Derek_S	social reproduction shouldn't be questionned :)	03:57
XFCEntral	hehe	03:58
Derek_S	Bourdieu has dealt with many of those questions	03:58
Derek_S	I love his later thesis	03:58
Derek_S	but he has been made famous by his pointing at the social reproduction system	03:58
Derek_S	but he deals with very interesting questions too	03:58
Derek_S	such as tastes	03:58
Derek_S	how they are determined	03:59
XFCEntral	hmm	03:59
Derek_S	and there s nothing more shared than what he called "class" racism	03:59
Derek_S	(that actually works in both ways)	03:59
XFCEntral	i see that online, where his work has shown that our tastes--while we have freedom--are largely influenced by our class/place in society	04:00
Derek_S	("lower" class people can express such despise against "higher" class people too though consequences are not the sames)	04:00
Derek_S	indeed	04:00
Derek_S	his thesis have been sometimes exagerated to criticize them	04:00
Derek_S	he always stated there are individual exceptions, freedoms	04:00
XFCEntral	right	04:00
Derek_S	but he would say there are "probable" tastes	04:01
XFCEntral	i can see that	04:01
Derek_S	the last little book I read from him	04:01
Derek_S	is about the political "field"	04:01
Derek_S	("field" is one of the concept he developped)	04:01
XFCEntral	i see	04:02
Derek_S	he s pointing at the fact that the logics of the political actors	04:02
Derek_S	are often guided by logics that escape to the non political actors	04:02
Derek_S	the fact that some political issues	04:02
Derek_S	are seen as important ones	04:02
Derek_S	just because they allow political actors to differ from one to another	04:03
XFCEntral	its all about what helps them	04:03
Derek_S	it points out other things too but the idea is that there is a certain autonomy of the political field	04:03
Derek_S	which in the end is quite shocking	04:03
Derek_S	since it kind of escapes its purpose in a democracy	04:04
XFCEntral	of course	04:04
Derek_S	also Bourdieu schemes	04:04
Derek_S	is pointing at the fact	04:04
Derek_S	that you shouldn't focus on individuals	04:04
XFCEntral	widespread costs and concentrated benefits?	04:05
Derek_S	hmmm	04:05
Derek_S	that s not what I mean	04:05
XFCEntral	oh okay	04:05
Derek_S	in fact individuals don't have such a big responsability	04:05
XFCEntral	i thought you meant like special interest groups	04:05
Derek_S	in the fact their role in the system is escaping to them	04:05
Derek_S	and that most other individual in their shoes	04:05
Derek_S	would mecanichally end behaving in a close way	04:06
Derek_S	that s also where their thesis have something	04:06
Derek_S	that s also where their thesis have somethinghmm	04:06
Derek_S	let me rephrase it	04:06
Derek_S	Bourdieu also write on the media	04:06
Derek_S	and on that subject	04:06
Derek_S	he s an interesting view to add to Chomsky's	04:07
Derek_S	they complete one another	04:07
Derek_S	let me see if questions de sociologie is available in english	04:07
Derek_S	that s a really nice book	04:07
Derek_S	I had to read it maybe 3 times	04:07
Derek_S	to start really understanding it well	04:08
Derek_S	but it deals with most of the thems he s been working on	04:08
XFCEntral	im mostly finding in french online	04:09
XFCEntral	*it in french	04:09
Derek_S	well that s somewhat logical	04:09
Derek_S	but he s recognised in the USA	04:09
Derek_S	maybe even more than in France :)	04:09
XFCEntral	haha id suppose	04:09
Derek_S	because of the rivalries :)	04:09
XFCEntral	maybe ill have some luck eventually	04:10
Derek_S	searching atm	04:11
XFCEntral	brb	04:11
JoeBob	Anybody know why might I get an error while trying to resize a partition?	04:11
Derek_S	maybe it s still mounted ,	04:11
Derek_S	?	04:11
Derek_S	(just guessing had the trouble earlier with a usb key	04:12
Derek_S	)	04:12
JoeBob	I'm resizing when in live cd mode	04:12
JoeBob	Gpartd also gives an error	04:13
XFCEntral	what's the error?	04:13
Merther	What does indexing actually do?	04:13
JoeBob	fails to resize partition	04:14
XFCEntral	i agree with Derek_S, that partition may be mounted still. even if youre in LiveCD. do you know the device path, such as /dev/sda?	04:15
JoeBob	one sec	04:15
XFCEntral	mml	04:16
XFCEntral	*mmk	04:16
CppIsWeird	after upgrading to 8.10, my xubuntu boot gets stuck on "* Starting basic networking..." QUITE frequently, I have to reboot 5 or 6 times to get it to fully boot. This last time I've rebooted it about 30 times and it wont boot at all.	04:19
JoeBob	Ok, the exact error is "An error occurred while writing changes to the storage devices. The resize operation has aborted"	04:21
JoeBob	Sorry about that not sure what happened to my IRC client	04:24
JoeBob	anyways.... /dev/sda1 is the partition im trying to resize which currently has windows on it	04:24
XFCEntral	thats okay	04:24
XFCEntral	i found a discussion from someone who had the same error. have a look at the last post	04:24
XFCEntral	An error occurred while writing changes to the storage devices. The resize operation has aborted	04:24
XFCEntral	oops....	04:24
XFCEntral	http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-868143.html	04:24
XFCEntral	that	04:24
JoeBob	Ahh so it could be disk errors	04:25
XFCEntral	worth a try	04:25
JoeBob	Wouldn't be surprised if it was as everyone shuts this machines down because windows takes it good ol time	04:26
XFCEntral	haha	04:26
JoeBob	sigh	04:29
JoeBob	chdsk cannot run because the colume is in use by another process	04:30
XFCEntral	from the Run dialog and did it ask you to run at reboot or w/e the exact wording was?	04:30
JoeBob	I did run dialog and the command say what I typed above	04:31
JoeBob	But you didn't hear me as you gone	04:32
Traveler83	i cant seen to get my xubuntu to find my WLAN	05:08
CppIsWeird	after upgrading to 8.10, my xubuntu boot gets stuck on "* Starting basic networking..." QUITE frequently, I have to reboot 5 or 6 times to get it to fully boot. This last time I've rebooted it about 30 times and it wont boot at all.	05:19
=== zoredache_ is now known as zoredache
zoredache	what do you mean won't boot? Does it still get stuck at starting networking, or does it not turn on?	05:21
=== durt_ is now known as durt
=== Sinister` is now known as Sinister
moodog	morning :)	08:49
jarnos	moodog: morning	09:26
donna10	TheSheep , a great many thanks for helping me yesterday to recover my panels on xubuntu . i understood and i learned something :)	11:32
reynante	hi all	14:58
vinnl	!hi \| reynante	14:59
ubottu	reynante: Hi! Welcome to #xubuntu!	14:59
reynante	how do i install codecs?	14:59
vinnl	!codecs	14:59
ubottu	For multimedia issues, this page has useful information: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats - See also http://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/common-tasks-chap.html - But please use free formats if you can: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FreeFormats	14:59
reynante	i just got a spare 40gb hard disk and i am now finished installing xubuntu	14:59
reynante	doing the program update after the restricted driver	15:00
reynante	ah thanks	15:00
vinnl	reynante, you might want to install "Xubuntu Restricted Extras"	15:00
=== thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak
reynante	is there a difference with ubuntu and xubuntu codecs?	15:01
reynante	are*	15:01
Mood	reynante: "xubuntu restricted extras" has a lot of codecs. you can be more selective and install just the ones you want, i.e. mp3	15:01
vinnl	Well, "Xubuntu Restricted Extras" has codecs that fit Xubuntu's applications better, but you can install Ubuntu's selection, if you want	15:01
reynante	is there an equivalent to like klite codec pack that installs the basic codecs needed for multimedia to work	15:02
Mood	reynante: ah ok, if you want the base set, xubuntu restricted extras should do it	15:02
reynante	thank you	15:02
charlie-tca	reynante: That should be "xubuntu-restricted-extras"	15:02
reynante	it seems i cant download things while update manager is running	15:03
vinnl	charlie-tca, in Add/Remove... it's just "Xubuntu Restricted Extras" :)	15:03
vinnl	reynante, true	15:03
reynante	so i'll wait for it to finish, thanks for the help guys	15:03
Mood	charlie-tca: you mentioned before you never tried debian?	15:03
charlie-tca	ouch	15:04
charlie-tca	sorry	15:04
charlie-tca	correct, Mood	15:04
Mood	charlie-tca: any interest in trying? i've been noodling with it a few days and i have to say it's got a much smaller footprint that xubuntu	15:04
vinnl	^.^	15:04
charlie-tca	I might have tried it, years ago, but didn't apparently like it enough to stay with it	15:04
charlie-tca	It is possilbe that is does have a smaller footprint. I have enough to do already without it	15:05
Mood	charlie-tca: heh, ok	15:06
alexi	hello	16:25
vinnl	!hi \| alexi	16:25
ubottu	alexi: Hi! Welcome to #xubuntu!	16:25
alexi	can i ask help?	16:25
TheSheep	!ask	16:26
ubottu	Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)	16:26
vinnl	<3 ubottu :)	16:26
alexi	i just dont get youtube working.. i have intrepid ibex on my eee	16:27
Myrtti	alexi: you've tried to install flash-nonfree?	16:28
alexi	i have flashplugin-nonfree	16:31
vinnl	And how it is "not working"? Do you get an error message, does it freeze, stutter, something else?	16:32
Myrtti	did you reboot the browser?	16:33
alexi	emmh, sorry.. no its working, i install that flashplugin-nonfree yesterday. now i boot and its working	16:34
vinnl	Great :)	16:35
=== charlie-tca is now known as charlie-tca_
=== charlie-tca_ is now known as charlie-tca2
=== charlie-tca2 is now known as charlie-tca
Mark__T	I wonder if xubuntu will switch to the notify-osd thing too?	17:44
* vinnl wonders too... Brian Tarricone (Xfce developer) also wrote xfce4-notifyd for Xfce 4.6		17:46
vinnl	(Which also provides some nice effects, btw)	17:47
* charlie-tca hoping xubuntu don't		17:47
vinnl	charlie-tca, why not?	17:48
charlie-tca	I don't like it. They pile on top each other	17:48
charlie-tca	They go away before I get to read them	17:49
vinnl	Doesn't libnotify do that as well?	17:49
vinnl	(You also shouldn't have to read those messages, is the rationale behind it)	17:49
charlie-tca	I don't think so. I don't think it disappears as fast, and I can read the text	17:50
vinnl	Well, there's always xfce4-notifyd right? :) I was hoping on giving that a shot if I could just have got Jaunty installed :(	17:51
charlie-tca	try using notify-osd, and then go through a cd , by passing the songs you don't want	17:52
Mark__T	I just wonder if there is already a indicator-applet for xfce	17:52
vinnl	Does that pile up a lot of notifications?	17:52
knome	charlie-tca, try buying music you want to listen	17:52
vinnl	Haha :P	17:52
charlie-tca	yes it does	17:52
vinnl	Doesn't that also happen with libnotify?	17:52
vinnl	Oh wait, it doesn't if it's attachedf to an icon	17:52
charlie-tca	no, vinnl	17:53
vinnl	Mark__T, that might very well be a tray icon which would also work in Xubunt	17:53
charlie-tca	You can add notify-osd through Synaptic-Package-Manager. It will screw up the same way as in Ubuntu, then	17:54
vinnl	It's not in Intrepid...	17:55
Mark__T	vinnl: no indicator-plugin is a gnome panel plugin	17:56
Mark__T	indicator-applet	17:56
vinnl	Ah too bad	17:56
vinnl	In that case, I don't think Xubuntu will adopt notify-osd	17:56
Mark__T	notify-osd has a tray icon too I think	17:58
vinnl	Is it? Two icons to handle notifications?	17:59
Mark__T	well it's a bit confusing for me	18:00
Mark__T	<quote>A small applet to display information from various applications consistently in the panel. Currently this includes support for messaging applications, but further enhancements are planned.</quote>	18:06
Mark__T	lookup this: http://blogs.gnome.org/kenvandine/2009/03/06/pidgin-sucks-less-for-irc/	18:08
vinnl	So I suppose it's the same then	18:09
Mark__T	you can use notify-osd without that applet	18:11
=== sancas_ is now known as sancas
danopia	hi	18:34
TheSheep	!hi \| danopia	18:37
ubottu	danopia: Hi! Welcome to #xubuntu!	18:37
avuton	Does the jaunty upgrade for xubuntu contain the new xfce yet?	19:05
vinnl	avuton, yep	19:06
vinnl	avuton, http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=xfce4&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all	19:06
avuton	There's no xubuntu live cd for it though, so I'll just install stable then update, right?	19:07
vinnl	avuton, there is	19:07
avuton	Aah	19:07
avuton	I'll do the diging then, thanks	19:07
vinnl	A new one is generated every day at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/	19:07
vinnl	avuton, no need ;-)	19:07
avuton	Oh, cool :D	19:07
avuton	Thanks	19:07
vinnl	Also, Alpha images are released every so often, but I'm not sure whether the latest also contains Xfce 4.6 final	19:08
vinnl	yw :)	19:08
Superpig_	Hi, I've just upgraded to 8.10 and my keyboard and mouse don't seem to be working with X anymore	20:02
Superpig_	I get to the graphical login screen and it just doesn't accept any input	20:03
Superpig_	I can Alt-FN to other TTYs and use the keyboard just fine, which is why I think it's an X problem	20:03
Superpig_	can anyone advise me on how to proceed with debugging it?	20:03
lukinfore	hi	20:04
lukinfore	is there way to determine autostart order?	20:05
vinnl	Nope, you'd have to add it to a Bash script or something	20:05
lukinfore	have problem with conky	20:05
lukinfore	it seems it ruuninf before xfdesktop	20:05
lukinfore	*running	20:05
lukinfore	so drawed to wrong window	20:06
lukinfore	uhm	20:18
lukinfore	want edit button in autstarted apps	20:18
lukinfore	is launchpad a right place?	20:18
charlie-tca	for?	20:18
lukinfore	for feature request?	20:19
vinnl	lukinfore, this'd be more appropriate: http://bugzilla.xfce.org/	20:19
vinnl	But	20:19
vinnl	Have you checked this feature in Xubuntu 9.04/Xfce 4.6? It might be that it is already present now	20:20
lukinfore	well no account there	20:20
lukinfore	yep i'm on jaunty	20:20
charlie-tca	Report it in launchpad and subscribe me, then	20:20
vinnl	I can report it for you	20:20
lukinfore	k	20:20
vinnl	Or perhaps that'd be better indeed	20:20
vinnl	Then you can track its status	20:21
charlie-tca	There is not even a setting for autostarted apps, is there?	20:21
vinnl	Well, the configuration screen of which apps to start ^.^	20:21
charlie-tca	I see, Session and startup.	20:22
vinnl	That's not Autostarted Applications, is it?	20:22
bfamadio	i am having problems in mounting my 16gb pendrive on my eeePc, can someone help?	20:22
charlie-tca	It has a tab in it now	20:22
brandonban6	bfamadio, what is the problem?	20:23
vinnl	Ah	20:23
bfamadio	it says unable to mount volume	20:23
bfamadio	cannot mount volume	20:23
brandonban6	bfamadio, have you used this drive on a windows machine?	20:23
bfamadio	no, its new	20:24
bfamadio	and i dont have problem with the 512mb pendrive which i have already used in windows	20:24
pitwalker	already mounted?	20:25
pitwalker	what says mount?	20:25
bfamadio	when i try to open the drive an error message appears	20:26
pitwalker	please browse /dev/disk/by-id with mc	20:26
pitwalker	sudo apt-get install mc	20:26
brandonban6	k, in terminal run "sudo mount -t vfat <device path> <mount point> -o force" replaceing <device path> with /dev/pathofdevice and mounting point with folder you want to mount to.	20:26
lukinfore	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-session/+bug/340143	20:39
lukinfore	something like this	20:39
vinnl	charlie-tca, shall I do it? :)	20:40
hanns94_	money for me please!!	20:40
hanns94_	http://change.pennergame.de/change_please/9873361/	20:40
peetah22	hello everyone - i just installed xubuntu and am having a hell of a time getting my m-audio audiophile 2496 to play sound (and continue playing sound). when i adjust the volume, the sound completely dies (it's dead now). can anyone give a hand?	20:43
bfamadio	pitwalker i tried your first suggestion : bash: /dev/disk/by-id: is a directory	20:43
pitwalker	bfamaido: ls -l you find the pendrive's device name?	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2009-03-09 19:00 ata-QUANTUM_FIREBALL_EX3.2A_673825040215 -> ../../sda	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-03-09 19:00 ata-QUANTUM_FIREBALL_EX3.2A_673825040215-part1 -> ../../sda1	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-03-09 19:00 ata-QUANTUM_FIREBALL_EX3.2A_673825040215-part2 -> ../../sda2	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2009-03-09 19:00 scsi-SATA_QUANTUM_FIREBAL673825040215 -> ../../sda	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-03-09 19:00 scsi-SATA_QUANTUM_FIREBAL673825040215-part1 -> ../../sda1	20:45
pitwalker	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-03-09 19:00 scsi-SATA_QUANTUM_FIREBAL673825040215-part2 -> ../../sda2	20:45
vinnl	Wow Lionel is quick	20:46
vinnl	lukinfore, so, subscribe yourself to https://bugs.launchpad.net/xfce4-session/+bug/340143 :)	20:49
lukinfore	subscribe? I've already afaik	20:52
lukinfore	uhm. duplicate is related to some earlier version	20:53
lukinfore	thought there was eddit in 4.4	20:53
vinnl	Well, it still applies in 4.6, right?	20:53
lukinfore	yeyeye	20:55
lukinfore	hope 4.8 is not affected	20:55
vinnl	Yeah let's cross our fingers :)	20:55
lukinfore	or even 4.61?	20:55
vinnl	Don't think so, 4.6.1 will contain mostly bugfixes	20:56
vinnl	Plus, this bug has been around for a while and hasn't been fixed, so it'll probably take a while	20:57
charlie-tca	sure, you can upstream it. I just didn't want it lost	20:57
vinnl	charlie-tca, had already been done... Twice :)	20:57
vinnl	I thought Benedikt Meurer was the bug contact, and since he's put his Xfce development on hold, I wouldn't expect too much	20:57
charlie-tca	woot! that's insurance, doing it twice :-)	21:02
charlie-tca	Someone else could pick it up.	21:03
vinnl	charlie-tca, actually, I did it for the third time :P	21:03
charlie-tca	\o/	21:04
vinnl	I'm off to bed now, bye :)	21:07
=== danopia` is now known as danopia
MaFrei	Hello	21:27
knome	!hi \| MaFrei	21:28
ubottu	MaFrei: Hi! Welcome to #xubuntu!	21:28
MaFrei	i hope i can get help here, because i#ve got maybe a speciall problem and till no, nobody was able to help me.	21:28
MaFrei	Hello ubotto	21:28
knome	!ask \| MaFrei	21:28
ubottu	MaFrei: Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)	21:28
MaFrei	i#ve got the problem that i dont have access via LAN on my Acer Aspiure One	21:29
MaFrei	ok ;-)	21:29
knome	MaFrei, can you be a bit more specific?	21:29
knome	MaFrei, you can't access internet or lan at all with wired/wireless?	21:30
MaFrei	i hab configured the LAN via the networkmanager, also i had configured the LAN manually in the configuration file. The fun is that, if i configiure it manually, i can ping my network card but I#m not able to ping my LAN. Also funny is that the WLAN is functionning good.	21:30
knome	sounds weird. anyway, network-manager expects you to NOT have any configurations anywhere.	21:31
MaFrei	>Im also sure that it is no hardware defect, because when i rum my Acer via xubuntu Live-CD the LAN is working well. %The LAN is also working well with a newly installed Xubuntu, but afer a restard it is not functiuoning any more.	21:32
MaFrei	i have copied the configuration from the Live-Cd System to my installed xubuntu but this also not solve my problem.	21:34
knome	hmm.	21:34
dj_bushido	what did you do to "configure" it?	21:35
MaFrei	there is also no error (asl i see?) and the Network manager (in automatic) configuratuion tells me that im connected to the LAN	21:35
MaFrei	well, i treid in networkmanager the DHCP and also the fixed IP. Also i configured the configuration file (ahh, whats is name) with a fixed IP.	21:36
dj_bushido	try dhcp not static IP, see if that does anything.	21:36
dj_bushido	And stupid question, but how are you connecting now?	21:36
MaFrei	i#m working now on my "big" computer, the acer is beside me. I also used DHCP with the network manager and aslo configured DHCP manually. In both cases he tried to connect but dont get an IP.	21:38
dj_bushido	so the problem is not your network then, right?	21:39
MaFrei	i can change files between the acer and my working machine via USB-Stick. Also the WLAn on the Acer is working fine, i dont get a WLAN till my neighbour dont switch hes on (well somethimes...)	21:39
MaFrei	no, my network LAN is fine.	21:39
dj_bushido	very interesting...	21:39
dj_bushido	do you know if the acer has a specific wired driver it needs?	21:40
MaFrei	yes that is it. I#m totally frustaed. I found that there was a bug in ubuntu 7.10 but it was called to be fixed.	21:40
slow-motion	hi	21:41
dj_bushido	also, post on the ubuntu forum as well, someone else might know...	21:41
brandonban6	hi slow-motion	21:41
MaFrei	well, as the Acer LAN is working fine with the xubuntu Live-CD i doindt looked at this so far.	21:41
slow-motion	hi brandonban6	21:41
MaFrei	well, i posted on the Geramn ubuntu forum alreadfy, but nobody was able to help me.	21:42
dj_bushido	try posting english, that might help. your english seems fine.	21:42
knome	MaFrei, #ubuntu-de ?	21:42
MaFrei	yes	21:42
dj_bushido	sorry, I meant www.ubuntuforums.org	21:42
dj_bushido	you'd have to register, but there's a greater chance someone can help you	21:43
dj_bushido	have you tried the hardware driver manager?	21:43
dj_bushido	my comp had a b43 card, so when I connected it to wired and did that it gave me a driver.	21:44
MaFrei	bushido: no, the hardware dribver manager is new to me. What should i try there	21:44
dj_bushido	you are using xubuntu, yes?	21:45
dj_bushido	just making sure...	21:45
MaFrei	bushido: yes	21:45
dj_bushido	Applications->System->Hardware Drivers	21:45
dj_bushido	you might have to be connected to internet for it to be registered correctly, but it should detect a driver if one exists.	21:46
dj_bushido	any luck yet? keep us updated	21:46
MaFrei	i#m connected via WLAN right now (my neighbour is online ;-), i see only the atheros wlan-driver in hardware manager	21:47
dj_bushido	hmmm...	21:47
dj_bushido	what is your wired card that I can look up and see if there is a driver?	21:47
dj_bushido	or laptop model to look up card	21:48
MaFrei	the WLAN card is the Ateros 802.11	21:48
MaFrei	it is a ACER aSPIRE oNE WITH A ssd-dISK	21:48
MaFrei	i thin it is named Acer Aspire 110	21:49
MaFrei	sethe LAN is a Realtek RTL8101E/RTL8102	21:50
MaFrei	as i see in "sudo lspci"	21:50
dj_bushido	realtek is sound card	21:50
dj_bushido	pretty sure	21:50
dj_bushido	can you send the result to me?	21:51
dj_bushido	do command "sudo lspci > lspci.txt"	21:51
MaFrei	no, RTL8101E is PCI Express fast Ethernet card	21:51
knome	!pastebin	21:51
ubottu	pastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu.com (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)	21:51
MaFrei	ok, but this takes some minute	21:51
dj_bushido	thanks knome	21:51
brandonban6	!creator	21:54
ubottu	Sorry, I don't know anything about creator	21:54
brandonban6	lol	21:54
dj_bushido	try this site http://www.opendrivers.com/driver/239888/realtek-rtl8100e-rtl8101e-rtl8102e-gr-driver-1.003.00-linux-kernel-2.6.x(support-x86-and-x64)-free-download.html	21:54
dj_bushido	make sure to copy the entire line	21:55
brandonban6	who coded the bot script?...tis impressive	21:55
knome	brandonban6, what are you looking for?	21:55
MaFrei	ok, i have it: http://paste.ubuntu.com/128973/	21:55
knome	brandonban6, i'm not sure if it was jussi01	21:55
brandonban6	knome, just curious if ubottu would give information about it's designer...	21:56
knome	!bot	21:56
ubottu	Hi! I'm #xubuntu's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots	21:56
brandonban6	ah, I see..	21:56
dj_bushido	ok, you were right, that is the card	21:56
MaFrei	bushido: the link (the whole line) is not working	21:57
MaFrei	bushido: but no problem, i will find it myself	21:57
MaFrei	bushido: do you think this one is different from the one I#m already using?	21:58
dj_bushido	search google for "RTL8101E linux driver"	21:58
knome	MaFrei, http://tinyurl.com/rtl8100-1e	21:58
dj_bushido	that links to the site i posted	21:59
knome	dj_bushido, correct. :)	21:59
dj_bushido	how to do colors?	21:59
knome	colors?	22:00
dj_bushido	dj_bushido, correct	22:00
dj_bushido	showed up red	22:00
dj_bushido	or is that xchat coloring it for me?	22:00
brandonban6	hehe :)	22:00
knome	dj_bushido, it is. it's your highlight.	22:00
* dj_bushido feels like an irc n00b once again...		22:01
brandonban6	dj_bushido, I was there just last week :) .........novice to pro in one week, call today!!	22:01
dj_bushido	oh nice! count me in!	22:01
dj_bushido	anyway, any luck on the driver?	22:01
MaFrei	ok, i got an tar.bz2	22:02
dj_bushido	*a tar.bz2	22:02
dj_bushido	sorry...	22:02
MaFrei	ok, how is the prozedure for installaing a driver in xubuntu?	22:03
dj_bushido	um, hold on	22:05
dj_bushido	should be able to extract to root directory, i believe.	22:06
dj_bushido	if so, extract to a temporary directory and then sudo mv to root	22:06
MaFrei	bushido: ok, i will do likely, but i think i've made a little mistake by now. Because i have at the moment the LAn from my neighbour (till he goes to sleep what is very early) i have started the update of the Acer and now he is installing 202 new packages. Can i interupt that?	22:08
dj_bushido	just kidding.	22:08
dj_bushido	are you using synaptic?	22:08
dj_bushido	if so, just complete the download, and you don't need to worry about internet.	22:09
dj_bushido	back to the driver though.	22:09
dj_bushido	i was wrong about install.	22:09
MaFrei	äh.. I#m using the GUI-Tool	22:09
dj_bushido	extract to temporary directory, then do"./configure;make;sudo make install"	22:09
MaFrei	ok, and i can do this will the installation of the updates is running?	22:10
dj_bushido	scratch the ./configure, just make and make install	22:10
dj_bushido	and yes	22:10
MaFrei	ok, i will try	22:10
dj_bushido	shouldn't affect other packages UNLESS you are installing the driver via synaptic	22:10
dj_bushido	g2g for like 10 mins, so brb	22:10
MaFrei	well, ok, it is very slow, at the moment he is instlling some perl packages	22:11
MaFrei	ok, i have extract the package and there is a file called "makefile"	22:16
MaFrei	i just let the commands run in the directory with this file??	22:16
MaFrei	oh. i got errors while running "sudo make"	22:18
dj_bushido	should be just "make"	22:18
dj_bushido	then sudo make install	22:18
MaFrei	if i rum "make" i got a "permission denied"	22:19
MaFrei	if i rum "sudo make" i got the following error: *** lib/modules/2.6.27-11generic/build: No such file or directory. Schluss	22:21
reynante	anybody awake?	22:22
dj_bushido	try installing the package "linux-source" or something to that effect.	22:22
MaFrei	and the: "make[1]: *** [modules] Fehler 2	22:22
MaFrei	Fehler 2 meqans Error 2	22:22
reynante	what does the circle icon on the upper left corner do?	22:22
reynante	on any open window	22:22
MaFrei	sorry, what circle?	22:23
reynante	on the title bar	22:23
reynante	there is the icon for the window, like firefox, xchat etc and theres a circle button besides it	22:23
reynante	what does it do?	22:23
MaFrei	well, i dont know what you mean, but i see that in thze moment it is installing a new kernel image. Could this interact with my "make"?	22:24
MaFrei	ah, now i know what you mean	22:24
MaFrei	oh , my terminal was closed	22:25
MaFrei	well, i think i should wait some minutes??	22:25
dj_bushido	the little circle moves the window onto all workspaces.	22:26
dj_bushido	um, might be a good idea to wait until image is done.	22:26
MaFrei	ok, the image is installed, now it is running some task with java	22:27
MaFrei	i try again	22:27
reynante	thanks dj_bushido	22:27
dj_bushido	okay	22:28
dj_bushido	the command is only make, not sudo make	22:28
reynante	didnt notice it because i am used to using only one workspace, i noticed at the indicator at the lower right corner that it appeared in the 2nd workspace	22:28
dj_bushido	you're welcome!	22:29
AmirB	Hey, I'm trying to install Xubuntu, but when I boot into the cd, hitting "ENTER" on the option to install (or any of the options for that matter) doesn't do anything	22:30
MaFrei	bushido: weill, it is not functioning. Witjh "make" i got a "permission denied".. And with "sudo mnake" i got a error of a non existing directory /lib/modules/2.6.27-11-generic/build	22:31
knome	AmirB, how much ram?	22:31
AmirB	512	22:31
knome	have you checked the cd for defects?	22:32
AmirB	it doesn't let me press enter for that either	22:32
slow-motion	n8	22:32
dj_bushido	um... see if there is a linux-dev package, or something like that	22:33
knome	AmirB, did you check the md5 sum?	22:33
MaFrei	bushido: "see" is nice, i only know how to install packsges, but how to check if some exist?	22:33
AmirB	hmm...no. I downloaded it from the official Xubuntu site though	22:34
dj_bushido	synaptic should let you do a search, on the top of window.	22:34
MaFrei	ah, i can use the GUI-Tools	22:34
MaFrei	yes	22:34
MaFrei	uh, no, synapsis is still running, how is the cmd-command to search?	22:35
MaFrei	sorry, the the shell command	22:36
dj_bushido	uh, no clue.	22:36
dj_bushido	I use synaptic.	22:36
MaFrei	ok, i will find it	22:36
knome	AmirB, does your system respond to any keyboard activity?	22:37
AmirB	yes	22:37
AmirB	everything else. up down, the F* buttons	22:37
AmirB	any ideas?	22:42
MaFrei	ok, the command is dphg -l and gives me a long listing	22:43
MaFrei	i found a "linux-libc-dev"	22:43
MaFrei	is this the right one?	22:43
reynante	where can i get webradio links?	22:44
reynante	im trying out listen music player	22:44
dj_bushido	might work	22:45
knome	AmirB, what if you select the "boot options" (or sth like that) F* menu and press enter then? are both the enter keys unresponsive?	22:46
knome	AmirB, have you tried to change the keyboard layout?	22:46
AmirB	hmm. actually, the enter key works when in the menu, just not to select an option...	22:46
MaFrei	bushido: ah, i got the problem, sorry, Im an idiot. The folder is not read/write enabled because it was extracted of an archive	22:46
dj_bushido	sorry, have to leave. Good luck all!	22:46
AmirB	so strange...	22:46
AmirB_	knome, is there a way to install it without selecting the option? maybe through the command line or something?	22:51
MaFrei	ok, could someone help me further? I want to install a new driver for my realtec ethernet card. I have downloaded the drive, extracted the package, make the folder read/write enabled to all and tried "make" but it gave me an error of a non existing directory /lib/modules/2.6.27-11-generic/build	22:52
knome	AmirB_, did you try safe graphics mode?	22:53
MaFrei	bushido told me that i need a somehow called package named "linux-dev" Can somebody told me the complete name so i can install it?	22:53
AmirB_	knome, no....how do i access thatx?	22:54
knome	AmirB_, should be able to get there by selecting it from the menu before the install menu	22:54
knome	AmirB_, if i recall correctly.	22:54
AmirB_	knome, the only thing before the install menu is a languag selextion	22:55
MaFrei	ok, i got another error that tell me that another installation is running. I think i wait till the update has finished and come the back again. Thank you all for your help. Nice to meet you	22:55
knome	MaFrei, good luck	22:56
AmirB_	knome, how do I get to the safe graphics mode?	23:01
knome	AmirB_, it might be that there is no such mode. i'm just referring to my memory.	23:06
AmirB_	oh	23:13
AmirB_	knome, I messed around a bit and now when I try to press enter it gives me a message with a path in it	23:13
AmirB_	for example /vulinuz/something	23:14
AmirB_	or wtvr	23:14
knome	AmirB_, mm.. yeah?	23:15
AmirB_	knome, dunno...just an update in the situation	23:15
knome	ok:)	23:17
knome	AmirB_, you might want to try alternative	23:17
AmirB_	like what?	23:19
knome	!alternative	23:20
ubottu	The Alternate CD is a classic text-mode install CD. It supports a wider range of hardware than the !LiveCD, and can also be used as an upgrade CD. Look for the link on the Ubuntu download page - See also !minimal	23:20
knome	you can install the full desktop from that cd also - and also from minimal.	23:20

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!