[00:01] <LjL> Nafallo: oh no.
[00:01] <LjL> Nafallo: Welcome to test The People's Dictionary - a completely new English-Swedish Dictionary belonging to the people and improved and extended by the people. The People's Dictionary will soon replace the Lexin Swedish-English dictionary.
[00:01] <Flannel> So, both the best and worst pastas you've ever had were Greek!
[00:01] <LjL> how? why? WHY?
[00:01] <LjL> Flannel: hm, yeah. i think so
[00:01] <Nafallo> haha
[00:21] <Myrtti> @mark
[00:22] <Myrtti> @mark #ubuntu-women bertolo came in to the channel with the usual boring trollish behaviour. Wouldn't be suprised to see equivalent elsewhere.
[00:22] <Myrtti> @mark bertolo came in to the channel with the usual boring trollish behaviour. Wouldn't be suprised to see equivalent elsewhere.
[01:19] <LjL> Nafallo: no, it worked
[01:19] <LjL> was wrong
[01:19] <Nafallo> :-D
[01:20] <LjL> but
[01:21] <LjL>  /ban *!?=mattias@c-ed78e755.021-338-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se!#ubuntu-whatever
[01:21] <LjL> [02:21:00] [Error] MODE: No such channel.
[01:21] <LjL> Nafallo: ^
[01:21] <LjL> ah wait, that's just cause it doesn't exist
[01:21] <LjL> but no
[01:21] <LjL> it gives the same for existing channels
[01:22] <Nafallo> :-)
[01:35] <Myrtti> that was remotely helpful ops call
[01:36] <LjL> Myrtti, jrib: when i feel less lazy... you'll stop having to wait for ops calls on those kinds of things ;)
[01:36] <LjL> (and no, i don't mean i'll actually watch and act on them)
[01:36] <Myrtti> LjL: so you'll do my ops watches as well?
[01:36] <Myrtti> here, have some gum
[01:37] <LjL> Myrtti: nah. i'll just have the floodbots warn you when a NSFW site is linked to.
[01:37] <Myrtti> I think I'm that much closer into getting this thing done that I could go to bed now
[01:38] <Myrtti> since I do have that doctors appointment tomorrow as well
[01:38] <LjL> Myrtti: trying to do something about that coffee addiction huh?
[01:39] <jrib> LjL: will it be able to detect if an image is porn?
[01:39] <LjL> jrib: not per se. domain name based.
[01:40] <LjL> jrib: although, uhm, i've heard of some neural network based heuristics.....
[01:40] <LjL> jrib: but, no, i don't have the cpu power.
[01:40] <Myrtti> LjL: I usually drink only one or two cups a day
[01:40] <Myrtti> one today to be exact
[01:40] <LjL> Myrtti: just keep saying yourself that
[01:40] <Myrtti> I can keep up just to SPITE YOU ALL
[01:40] <LjL> i smoke one or two cigs a day too
[01:40] <Myrtti> with the power of pure aggression
[01:40] <LjL> or perhaps it's one or two bags of tobacco
[01:41]  * jrib hates coffee
[01:41] <LjL> Myrtti: then have sarah lend you the pointy stick
[01:41]  * Myrtti hates tobacco
[01:41]  * Myrtti pokes LjL with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[01:41] <Myrtti> *SQUEEEAK*
[01:41] <LjL> Myrtti: no, the other, aggressive, stick.
[01:42] <Myrtti> ok, I'm not going to waste more time
[01:42] <Myrtti> nini
[01:42] <LjL> i'm going to find if i can buy an electric cigarette actually
[01:42] <LjL> one, it "shouldn't" do much harm
[01:42] <LjL> two, it should look ridiculous enough to provide an incentive to stop anyway.
[01:42] <LjL> at least in public.
[01:42] <LjL> Myrtti: eighteight
[01:49] <Seeker`> onehundredandfiftyeightmilonehundredandfiftyeightmil
[01:49] <Flannel> eh?
[01:51] <LjL> Seeker`: go to bed.
[01:52] <Seeker`> :(
[02:30] <Seeker`> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: how can we help you?
[02:30] <Seeker`> oh, hi Balzac
[02:30] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> who?
[02:31] <Seeker`> how can I help you?
[02:32] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> how does one earn oppage?
[02:32] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: by not being like you
[02:32] <LjL> and sorry if that sounded crude.
[02:32] <LjL> !guidelines
[02:32] <Seeker`> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: asking generally means you won't be made one
[02:32] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> like me?
[02:33] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> what am i like?
[02:33] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: i cannot really say... but... check the guidelines
[02:33] <tritium> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: you don't ask for it, for one thing.
[02:33] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> thanks
[02:34] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> I was just curious. I don't think I'll be an op.
[02:34] <Seeker`> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: that makes two of us
[02:34] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> i really like that Ubuntu is a swahili word
[02:34] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> meaning "humanity to others"
[02:35] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> that was a really nice choice of a name for software, don't you think?
[02:35] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> I think Barack Obama's father must also have known how to speak Swahili, coming from Kenya.
[02:36] <tritium> Offtopic...
[02:36] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> sorry
[02:36] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> you guys are pretty cool 
[02:37] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> brb
[02:42] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: you should probably use a proxy on your shell provider, so you can have a consistent identity and it's handier to switch from machine to machine
[02:46] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> why?
[02:46] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> you guys seem friendly enough and I have nothing to hide.
[02:46] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: i didn't mean that, actually quite the contrary
[02:46] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: it's confusing for us to see you as both balzac and Dont_Tase_Me_Bro
[02:47] <LjL> not to mention the verizon address
[02:47] <LjL> and i bet it's confusing for you to switch between all those machines
[02:47] <LjL> without having a consistent irc environemnt
[02:47] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> just a bit of fun to lighten things up a bit :)
[02:47] <LjL> fun?
[02:48] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> some people find irony makes them laugh
[02:48] <LjL> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: i don't get the irony
[02:48] <Seeker`> i find irony makes me laugh sometimes
[02:49] <LjL> i'm not referring to the nickname itself
[02:49] <Seeker`> sadly, this isn't in anyway ironic
[02:49] <LjL> if that's what you're thinking about
[02:49] <LjL> just about the several hostnames/identities
[02:50] <LjL> i mean, freenode staff could even notice that and start believing that you're using multiple proxy hosts or shell hosts, or botnet machines, or i dunno what, to dodge bans or otherwise muddle waters and confuse irc ops and users
[02:50] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> maybe there should be a biometric security system
[02:50] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> we could require users to have their iris scanned
[02:50] <Pricey> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: If you've no further on topic business here then please /part
[02:50] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> that would prevent situations like you're bringing up
[02:53] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> I'm enjoying the company
[02:53] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> I think I'll have another question soon if you let me stick around
[02:54] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> bbiab
[03:01] <Seeker`> @login
[03:28] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> back
[03:34] <Pricey> Dont_Tase_Me_Bro: Do you have an operator/abuse question?
[03:40] <nalioth> phantomcircuit: may we help you?
[03:40] <phantomcircuit> oh yeah im banned from #ubuntu but it's on my auto join list so i was forwarded here
[03:50] <tritium> @btlogin
[04:37] <bazhang> !idle | Dont_Tase_Me_Bro 
[05:20] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> ok
[05:20] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> another time
[05:20] <Dont_Tase_Me_Bro> bye
[07:29] <jussi01> !idle | phantomcircuit
[07:30] <phantomcircuit> oh yeah im banned from #ubuntu but it's on my auto join list so i was forwarded here
[07:41] <jussi01> phantomcircuit: and has your ban been talked about yet?
[07:41] <phantomcircuit> nope
[07:42] <jussi01> so you havent discussed it with the ops at any point?
[07:44] <phantomcircuit> nope
[07:45] <Flannel> phantomcircuit: Lying certainly isn't a good way to go about getting a ban removed.
[08:05] <phantomcircuit> it's technically true
[08:05] <phantomcircuit> no op has talked with me about my ban
[08:06] <phantomcircuit> they talked to me about what appeared to be ban avoiding (ironically i turned the proxy off and not on)
[08:28] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: what's the issue ?
[08:28] <phantomcircuit> i accidentally spammed some
[08:28] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: where and when
[08:29] <phantomcircuit> every other channel removed the ban within 12 hours :|
[08:29] <phantomcircuit> i dont even remember anymore but it's been days at least
[08:29] <ikonia> 3 days
[08:29] <ikonia> and you tried to avoid the ban using a netcollect.org host 
[08:30] <ikonia> and you've been banned and kicked more than one from what I can see 
[08:30] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: so what's the situation with your behaviour ?
[08:31] <phantomcircuit> actually i was banned with the netcollect.org host
[08:31] <phantomcircuit> i stopped using that proxy for a totally different reason (cant really trust that server anymore...)
[08:31] <phantomcircuit> so i got banned again for evading
[08:31] <ikonia> yup
[08:31] <ikonia> you ban evaded
[08:32] <phantomcircuit> yeah but it was totally not on purpose
[08:32] <ikonia> as I said - you've been kicked and banned a few times before
[08:32] <ikonia> so I'll re-ask the question "what's with the behaviour ?"
[08:32] <phantomcircuit> when?
[08:32] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: in general
[08:32] <phantomcircuit> "you've been kicked and banned a few times before"
[08:32] <phantomcircuit> when?
[08:32] <ikonia> oh
[08:33] <ikonia> few times on 7th march
[08:33] <ikonia> 26feb
[08:33] <ikonia> July
[08:33] <phantomcircuit> yeah
[08:33] <ikonia> so "what's with the behaviour"
[08:33] <phantomcircuit> the original ban was 26 fed
[08:33] <ikonia> you appear to not get it
[08:33] <phantomcircuit> then i was banned for ban evasion on the 7th of march
[08:33] <phantomcircuit> see why i forgot about the ban?
[08:34] <ikonia> no
[08:34] <phantomcircuit> no?
[08:34] <ikonia> no , I don't see why you forgot about the ban
[08:35] <ikonia> and as I said - you've been kicked / banned a few times for behaviour
[08:35] <ikonia> I understand accidents can happen, and I'm willing to accept that, just curious to the other incidents ?
[08:36] <phantomcircuit> because it was over a week
[08:36] <ikonia> ?
[08:36] <phantomcircuit> who bans someone for over a week for an accidental two line spam?
[08:36] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I've just said I'm happy to accept that accidents happen
[08:36] <ikonia> I'm asking about your other kicks/bans behaviour ?
[08:37] <phantomcircuit> i have no idea
[08:37] <phantomcircuit> july? that's the summer
[08:37] <phantomcircuit> beats me
[08:37] <ikonia> so spamming #ubuntu-offtopic with /me punches knomede ?
[08:37] <ikonia> was that also an accident ?
[08:37] <ikonia> you seem to make a mistakes spamming channels, or repeating yourself consistantly
[08:38] <phantomcircuit> what?
[08:38] <phantomcircuit> isn't #ubuntu-offtopic ... offtopic?
[08:38] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: yes
[08:38] <ikonia> that doesn't mean "spam" or "flood" the channel repeating the same thing over and over
[08:39] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I'm not being funny - I'm just curious / trying to understand the situation 
[08:39] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I totally accept accidents happen 
[08:39] <ikonia> I made a miss-paste myself yesterday, so I know how easy it is to do it
[08:39] <topyli> phantomcircuit: fyi, the "offtopic" #ubuntu-offtopic simply means it's not a support channel. it's still an ubuntu channel and the same code of conduct applies
[08:40] <phantomcircuit> right
[08:40] <phantomcircuit> also /me punches knomede?
[08:40] <phantomcircuit> when did i say that?
[08:41] <ikonia> in #ubuntu-offtopic in july when you where kicked for saying it over and over again
[08:41] <ikonia> well, banned actually, but the point is the same
[08:41] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: bottom line is, if I remove the ban, are we going to see any more issues with you ?
[08:42] <phantomcircuit> uh
[08:42] <phantomcircuit> no?
[08:42] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: why is that a hard question ?
[08:42] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I'm just asking for a staight answer
[08:42] <ikonia> not a clever one
[08:42] <phantomcircuit> because i dont even remember that stuff from july
[08:43] <ikonia> Myrtti: ping 
[08:43] <phantomcircuit> so how can i say i wont do something i dont remember again?
[08:43] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: because you can say "no I won't cause any issues again"
[08:43] <ikonia> doesn't matter if you remember doing it or not
[08:43] <ikonia>  Mez ping 
[08:44] <phantomcircuit> honestly i don't really care if you unban me
[08:44] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: ok then, we'll leave the conversation here then
[08:44] <phantomcircuit> i've never gotten any help from anybody in #ubuntu that i can remember
[08:44] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: ok - no problem then, bye
[08:44] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: if there is nothing else you need from us, please leave the channel and return to your day 
[08:45] <phantomcircuit> yeah see the thing is that #ubuntu is on my auto join list
[08:45] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: remove it
[08:45] <phantomcircuit> so as long as the ban is forwarding me here im going to end up here
[08:45] <ikonia> phantomcircuit:remove the auto join
[08:45] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: it's that simple
[08:45] <phantomcircuit> nah that takes effort from me
[08:45] <phantomcircuit> just change the ban
[08:45] <phantomcircuit> it's not hard
[08:45] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: no problem
[08:47] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: all done, your welcome to leave now
[08:47] <phantomcircuit> why do you keep asking?
[08:47] <phantomcircuit> just do it
[08:47] <ikonia> it's done
[08:48] <phantomcircuit> what do you get like a demerit for kicking someone?
[08:48] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I shouldn't have to, nor do I have access to kick you from this channel
[08:48] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: I've asked you to leave, updated the ban as you requested, your welcome to leave, it would be appreciated
[08:49] <ikonia> unless there is something you genuinly need/want 
[08:49] <phantomcircuit> ill leave the next time i close xchat
[08:50] <ikonia> jussi01: Myrtti elky Pricey nalioth tritium Gary  nudge
[08:50] <ikonia> phantomcircuit: just leave, it's pointless to behave like this, 
[08:50] <phantomcircuit> true but it's also pointless to indulge you and leave
[08:50] <ikonia> !ops 
[08:50] <phantomcircuit> it's a zero sum game
[08:50] <phantomcircuit> i can neither win nor lose
[08:50] <phantomcircuit> so i don't care
[08:50] <elky> ikonia, i am here, i also need to read up
[08:50] <gnomefreak> me too
[08:51] <ikonia> elky: ahh super
[08:51] <ikonia> thanks chaps
[08:51] <Gary> phantomcircuit: this channel is kept free of users so that the ops can better talk to people with problems, it is a no idle zone
[08:51] <ikonia> and ladies
[08:51] <phantomcircuit> like i said before
[08:51] <phantomcircuit> MEH
[08:55] <ikonia> thanks
[08:55] <elky> if he returns with more cheek, i'll upgrade it to a kb
[08:55] <ikonia> I don't think he will
[08:55] <ikonia> I was happy to unban him to be honest, every one makes slip ups with the keyboard
[08:56] <ikonia> just his smart mouth 
[08:56] <elky> until you got the attitude?
[08:56] <ikonia> pathetic attempt to be pain
[08:56] <ikonia> unless you sort the ban I'll just ge forwarded here as I can't be bothered removing the auto join
[09:00] <topyli> he was doing so well until then :)
[09:01] <topyli> although he *was* more interested in the past than your queries about future conduct
[09:01] <ikonia> to be fair to him, I didn't phrase that very well
[09:40] <Seeker`> @btlogin
[09:41] <ikonia> Seeker`: shouldn't you be at work ;)
[09:41] <ikonia> not seen you online in daylight hours for ages
[09:42] <Seeker`> train was cancelled
[09:42] <Seeker`> working from home until the next one
[09:42] <ikonia> nicie 
[09:42] <ikonia> nice
[09:51] <Seeker`> yeah,public transport sucks
[10:10] <Myrtti> I got a cortisone shot \o/
[10:11] <Seeker`> woo?
[10:11] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[10:11] <jussi01> Myrtti: cortisone is wonderful stuff
[10:12] <ikonia> jussi01: hello
[10:13] <Myrtti> the pain will go away lalalalalalalala
[10:18]  * Tm_T hates himself
[10:18] <Seeker`> Tm_T: why?
[10:21] <Tm_T> just everything goes wrong
[10:22] <Seeker`> :(
[10:27] <Seeker`> time to try and get the train
[10:28] <ikonia> run 
[11:22] <Mez> ikonia: pong
[11:22] <ikonia> Mez: not to worry, he left
[11:23] <ikonia> (the guy I wanted your view on )
[11:23] <Mez> ah, sorry, I was on my way into work
[11:23] <Mez> and good to know that my opinion is wanted 
[11:25] <ikonia> seemed polite to ask you about the guy you banned
[11:25] <ikonia> window 16
[11:27] <Mez> lol, did I ban him?
[11:28] <ikonia> yup
[11:28] <ikonia> looks like an old one that got overlooked
[11:28] <ikonia> then Myrtti pulled him on for ban evasion on your log
[11:28] <ikonia> your ban sorry 
[11:28] <Gary> I thought the saying was "ban happy" not "ban sorry"
[11:29] <ikonia> I'm sorry to ban
[11:29] <ikonia> .....mostly
[11:30]  * Gary was being humorous
[11:36] <ikonia> Gary: as was  
[11:36] <ikonia> I 
[11:38] <bazhang> genii, HI!
[12:41] <Pici> How do we feel about people ( ActionParsnip ) suggesting getdeb over waiting for an offical repo fix for Pidgin?
[12:41] <Pici> I'm not too fond of it myself.
[12:41] <ikonia> I disgourage it
[12:41] <ikonia> breaks deps
[12:41] <ikonia> causes problems when a fix is released to the repo 
[12:42] <ikonia> discourage even 
[12:42] <bazhang> pretty iffy suggestion in #kubuntu as well
[12:43] <ikonia> hes just keen to find a solution "now" rather than for the long term
[12:43] <ikonia> I don't see a problem with it if it's explained first that this may cause problems, but if you HAVE to have this now, this second, here is your best option
[12:44] <ikonia> at least it can be removed if it's in a deb
[12:44] <ikonia> but I don't recommend it ever
[12:44] <bazhang> they'll be back when it breaks stuff (which it will)
[12:44] <bazhang> getting into sebsebseb territory imo
[12:44] <ikonia> yes, totally, which is why at least a deb can be removed, 
[12:44] <ikonia> the problem is if it calls deps that update beyond current ubuntu versions or cause conflicts
[12:45] <bazhang> recommending osalt instead of repos
[12:45] <Pici> I've seen him suggest upgrading to Jaunty in the past as well to 'fix' issues.
[12:45] <ikonia> not happy with that at all
[12:46] <ikonia> as I said I think he's just keen to always provide a fix "now" rather than for the long term
[12:46] <ikonia> if he can't fix it now a random upgrade to a jaunty may seem a good idea to him 
[12:46] <Pici> Do you all mind if I ask him to join here? I'm a bit busy with work on my end so I'm not sure if I can devote one on one time to explain the entire thing to him.
[12:47] <ikonia> sure
[12:47] <ikonia> if you want I'll have a quiet chat with him in PM
[12:47] <ikonia> he's normally quite receptive and his heart is in the right place
[12:47] <elky> i'm heading to bed after a day of dealing with idiots
[12:47] <ikonia> or you can pull him in here 
[12:47] <Pici> ikonia: If you want to take care of him yourself thats perfectly fine with me :)
[12:47] <Pici> elky: Goodnight! 
[12:48] <ikonia> I'll give him a nudge, his intent is not bad
[12:48] <Pici> I know
[12:48] <ikonia> no sweat, I'll speak to him
[13:13] <ikonia> spoke to ActionParsnip - totally understood and said he'd put a bit more thought it
[13:13] <ikonia> zero problem at all
[13:33] <tritium> jussi01_: was asleep, and somehow got disconnected over night.
[13:45]  * genii sips
[13:48] <tritium> Morning, genii.
[13:52] <genii> tritium: Good mornin' :)
[13:52] <tritium> :)
[14:12] <ikonia> damn chineese IP owners, some chineese ISP has been trying to brute force 2 of my servers for 4 days solid now, there "abuse" inbox is full
[14:13] <ikonia> nice to see them talking a solid stance against missuse of their IP range
[14:15] <Gary> can you not set it to ignore from an address range?
[14:16] <genii> ikonia: Why not just blacklist their entire range>?
[14:16] <genii> Gary: Yes, exactly
[14:17] <Gary> block all of china :p
[14:17] <jdong> not sure you want to be SSH'ing into the USA out of China anyway
[14:17] <jdong> and yeah you're not alone, on some of my servers I can go through a couple thousand PAM failures a day
[14:17] <genii> jdong: I'm pretty sure they are packet sniffing (the chinese govt)
[14:18] <jdong> well yes they are but my gut feeling with SSH is you're guilty until proven innocent.
[14:18] <genii> Probably
[14:19] <ikonia> genii: already done
[14:19] <ikonia> genii: doesn't mean they have stopped attacking
[14:20] <ikonia> jdong: I don't mind attackes sshguard and fail2ban stop anything of any issue, just ammusing me that this one china IP has been hitting the same 2 servers solid for 4 days straight
[14:20] <ikonia> no breaks no anything
[14:20] <ikonia> they are not getting past the firewall, but they are still trying
[14:20] <jdong> yep; it happens.
[14:20] <ikonia> I think 4 days solid is the longest I've seen 
[14:20] <genii> Most of the attacks I've seen lately on our boxes were from Korea and not China
[14:20] <jdong> I personally don't fail2ban anymore
[14:20] <jdong> I've found it only gets in the way when I have a broken SSH key or ctrl-C too many ssh attempts :)
[14:21] <genii> And Romania for some reason
[14:21] <jdong> with the general slowness of SSH authentication I find it hard to believe an effective brute-force could be done anyway.
[14:21] <jdong> if they want a crack at me they should go over to my squirellmail login and hammer those.
[14:21] <ikonia> jdong: I still use it with sshguard so it has to be a double positive to block it, I had a close call with a new box about two weeks ago where someone tried to brute it that hard it couldn't respond to ssh to give me a session to stop them
[14:21] <ikonia> jdong: felt justified in leaving it on after that (new box didn't have it on)
[14:22] <jdong> ah, indeed that's pretty annoying
[14:22] <jdong> I might reconfigure fail2ban with a bit more permissiveness
[14:22] <jdong> but yeah the 3-strikes policy definitely didn't work out for me
[14:22] <ikonia> which must have been quite hard considering it only allows ssh connection with keys or it cuts them off straight away 
[14:22] <jdong> I found myself flushing chains for my users more than anything else.
[14:22] <ikonia> jdong: I use 5 attempts that's not in the exclusion range within 6 hours
[14:22] <jdong> oh I don't think those kiddie scripts care about that :)
[14:23] <ikonia> jdong: seems to have worked solid for me for years
[14:23] <ikonia> the exclusion list is the key 
[14:23] <jdong> ah
[14:23] <ikonia> as long as i'm on my home IP I can mess up as much as I want and it won't block me
[14:23] <ikonia> always got a back door
[14:24]  * ikonia notes to china, please don't spoof my hope ip
[14:24] <ikonia> home
[14:26] <jdong> fortunately TCP spoofing is nontrivial :)
[14:26] <ikonia> :)
[14:30]  * Panarchy says Hi
[14:31] <ikonia> Panarchy: what's up ?
[14:31] <Panarchy> Just seeing where the ops stance is now, on allowing me back into the #ubuntu channel
[14:31] <ikonia> nope
[14:31] <ikonia> not going to happen any time soon
[14:32] <Panarchy> Why not?
[14:32] <ikonia> because your attitude is still terrible
[14:32] <ikonia> up until about 2 hours ago you where still flooding channels until a freenode staff member stepped in 
[14:32] <ikonia> which I've lost count how many times you've been asked to stop doing
[14:34] <Panarchy> 2 hours ago?
[14:34] <Panarchy> I think I was still at training
[14:34] <ikonia> please don't be picky
[14:34] <ikonia> "a few hours" ago
[14:34] <ikonia> if you really need it I'll get the time stamps
[14:34] <ikonia> but this is a good example of your attitude and how much it is not helpful
[14:34] <Panarchy> ...
[14:35] <ikonia> what does ..... ? mean
[14:36] <Panarchy> It's an elipsis
[14:37] <ikonia> unless there is something else you need, I request you leave the channel and carry on with your day 
[14:37] <Panarchy> carry on with my day?
[14:37] <Panarchy> It's 1:37am now
[14:38] <ikonia> so it's "day" time
[14:38] <ikonia> am is day 
[14:38] <ikonia> trying to be smart
[14:38] <mneptok> next time just say "carry on with your quest to find meaning in your life."
[16:37] <genii> Sorry about the catch-33/catch-22 remark. But I couldn't help myself (in #u)
[16:38]  * jussi01 slaps genii's hand :P
[16:39] <genii> jussi01: I'll try to be good :)
[16:40]  * jussi01 eyes genii suspiciously :P
[16:40] <genii> Ok ok, I'll do more than try
[16:41] <genii> jussi01: You seem in a good mood 
[16:41] <jussi01> heyeah... not a bad one anyway
[16:42]  * jussi01 has been swimming and nowhas food :)
[16:42] <genii> Man. I can hardly wait now for swimming weather. It's not even spring here yet
[16:43] <jussi01> genii: its -5 today here...
[16:43] <genii> +4 or so here
[16:46] <LjL> says 0C here =)
[16:46] <LjL> but it's the weather applet that's broken :P
[16:48]  * genii waits for happyhater to show up
[16:50] <LjL> genii: well i haven't redirected, i've just banned.
[16:51] <genii> LjL: Ah
[16:52] <LjL> was warned. went on in response. i call that a clear statement that you're not going to respect any rules...
[16:52]  * Myrtti has slept all day, feels better
[16:53] <genii> Yeah it was definitely blatant. I imagine when they want more assistance they'll find their way to here and plead ignorance, etc etc
[16:53] <genii> "it was my brother" whatever.....
[16:53]  * genii hands Myrtti a wake-up coffee
[16:54] <Myrtti> it's so wonderful to not be in any pain
[16:54] <Myrtti> I've just slept and slept
[16:55] <genii> Your body regenerates when you sleep
[16:58] <genii> Work, AFK
[17:06] <LjL> ikonia: have you happened to have a look at arcsighter's problem? to me, no matter how much he keeps saying it happens on his 1gb box too, it just seems he's out of memory badly.
[17:07] <ikonia> LjL: no, I've not had a look, is it in #ubuntu ?
[17:08] <ikonia> LjL: do you want me to take a look / probe for info ?
[17:08] <LjL> ikonia: if you want yes
[17:08] <ikonia> ok
[17:08] <LjL> ikonia: i'm waiting for some iotop output now
[17:15] <jdong> genii: so the body is just like /var/log/apache/error.log?
[17:24]  * genii sips his coffee and contemplates the zen-like similarities of the body as compared to webserver logs
[17:25] <ikonia> LjL: straight away alarm bells are ringing on this guys box
[17:26] <LjL> ikonia: like what?
[17:26] <ikonia> well first of all the one with ati card only has 256 ram
[17:26] <ikonia> if the ati driver is having issues (tell me when it's not) the machine will take the load
[17:26] <ikonia> 265 or ram in itself is low
[17:27] <LjL> ikonia: "only"? my video card has uh, 64 or 128... :o)
[17:27] <ikonia> LjL: that's his ram - not video card
[17:28] <ikonia> his ram is 256 !
[17:28] <LjL> ikonia: yeah i know that... sorry i misread the first part as if the ATI card itself had 256
[17:28] <LjL> ikonia: and yes, but the thing is that he keeps insisting that the "same" things happens on his 1gb box
[17:28] <ikonia> he's not got a 1GB box
[17:28] <LjL> ikonia: i asked him how he could be sure it's the "same" thing
[17:28] <ikonia> he said it was a 256 and and a 512 
[17:28] <ikonia> (the two boxes)
[17:28] <LjL> ikonia: then he lied to me
[17:29] <ikonia> they are both lacking ram for a busy desktop
[17:29] <ikonia> the 256 one, certainly, more so with it's crap video suppoort 
[17:30] <LjL> ikonia: hey, *i* have got 512 megs :|
[17:30] <ikonia> 17:23 < ArcSighter> ikonia: here, 256, there (on the onboard video) 512
[17:30] <ikonia> LjL: it's a bit low for a busy desktop
[17:31] <LjL> ikonia: so you're calling my desktop idle?!
[17:31] <ikonia> :(
[17:31] <ikonia> a little........
[17:31] <ikonia> I suppose you get used to managing what your machine can do 
[17:32] <ikonia> I've got a bit of ram here, so I think nothing about having a 200meg firefox session open
[17:32] <LjL> ikonia: konqueror is a bit less ram hungry, anyway seriously i should get a DIMM or two
[17:32] <ikonia> wouldn't hurt
[17:32] <LjL> ikonia: although i do believe that half a gig *per se* should be more than enough, but whatever
[17:32] <ikonia> I do agree it should be enoough
[17:42] <ikonia> this arcsighter's not exactly mega quick 
[17:43] <LjL> no
[17:44] <LjL> ikonia: also i might be too malicious but he gives me the feeling of "i want help but i know i'm right and who's helping me is wrong"
[17:45] <ikonia> yes, there is a slight feel of that
[17:45] <ikonia> I'm normally wrong any how, so he may have a point ;)
[17:50] <ikonia> LjL: well his latest post is very intersting
[17:50] <LjL> ikonia: ugh, a bit... numeric
[17:51] <ikonia> well he's clearly got a ram issue
[17:51] <ikonia> but not actually low ram ???
[17:51] <ikonia> look at all the ram being used for cache !!!!
[17:51] <ikonia> if there was a heavy ram load there would be nothing free for cache
[17:52] <ikonia> at the same time his got vram foot print that's whopping !!!!
[17:53] <ikonia> no load on his box, cpu idle
[17:54] <LjL> ikonia: i honestly cannot really read that. but now that you mention it, i didn't really look for the cache figure in top
[17:54] <ikonia> lets see what the status is while it's in "slow down"
[17:56] <LjL> ikonia: though if the system really is so eager to swap stuff out instead of shrinking the cache, perhaps he's got a weird swappiness setting?
[17:56] <Tm_T> default is weird already (;)
[17:56] <ikonia> LjL: this sounds dumb - but I'll put money on either the video card not being configured properly so it "appears" alower that it is
[17:57] <Tm_T> if it's still 60
[17:57] <ikonia> LjL: or some process like a massive mail file when he tries to open thunderbird that can't be cached
[17:57] <ikonia> LjL: eg: lack of ram to do what he wants
[17:57] <LjL> ikonia: yeah well he seems to insist it's about the load averages, not video sluggishness. but then again i don't entirely trust him
[17:57] <LjL> Tm_T: is that weird?
[17:58] <Tm_T> LjL: is, makes no sense when there's only one user, way too much unneeded swapping
[17:58] <Tm_T> atleast that's how I see it daily
[17:58]  * Tm_T uses 10 or 5 usually
[17:58] <LjL> Tm_T: well i haven't experimented very much with it, but even on a single-user system, it doesn't make a lot of sense to keep, say, some daemons that are never really used in RAM
[17:59] <Tm_T> LjL: sure, that doesn't mean you should use swap too aggressively
[17:59] <ikonia> Tm_T: yup, very high
[17:59] <Tm_T> 25 or so would be way more sane default
[17:59] <LjL> Tm_T: no, i'll grant that. i just thought 60 was a reasonable value
[17:59] <ikonia> Tm_T: the vram of 9000+ from a clean boot up is worring
[18:00] <ikonia> worrying even
[18:00] <Tm_T> LjL: it's ok when you have 10+ users etc
[18:00] <Tm_T> LjL: that default comes from vanilla kernel, I believe it has made big servers in mind
[18:01] <LjL> hmm
[18:01] <LjL> well what do you think i might set it to on a half-a-gig system
[18:02] <Tm_T> LjL: 10 or 5 is what I use in single user systems, from 128 MiB 1024 MiB ram
[18:02] <Tm_T> +to
[18:02] <Tm_T> LjL: but depends on what you do with it, ofcourse
[18:02] <Myrtti> yay, it's Umakant again
[18:02] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[18:03]  * Myrtti goes to bed
[18:06] <ikonia> got to dash home - should be about an hour
[18:07] <Tm_T> LjL: ofcourse, I have constant swapping going on here anyway, so I have to minimize swappiness
[18:20] <Myrtti> @bansearch mag_mor
[18:23] <Myrtti> @bansearch brandonban6 
[18:23] <LjjjL> jdong i was wondering, since unfortunately i've sometimes had my eee run completely out of battery (because i didn't realize that the stupid thing  woulnd't hibernate), do you think that might have caused the ssd breakage?
[18:24] <LjjjL> like, if i'm not mistaken, a usb key will likely suffer damage if you power it off during a write
[18:24] <jdong> LjjjL: I don't think it will suffer damage in that sense, no...
[18:24] <jdong> and I don't believe non-cheapo USB keys would suffer damage in that sense iether
[18:24] <LjjjL> oh
[18:24] <jdong> data corruption is certainly possible....
[18:24] <LjjjL> well yes, that's for sure
[18:24] <jdong> but not anything the journal can't recover
[18:25] <LjjjL> jdong: and especially not like a full backup to tar and restore couldn't recover, i guess...
[18:25] <jdong> in fact with SSD's (cacheless) you shouldn't even get metadata (fsck-needed) corruption ever.
[18:25] <jdong> but yeah the fact that writing new data to a newly created FS is failing on the drive points towards hardware failure
[18:25] <jdong> not something that I'd expect to happen from losing power.
[18:25] <LjjjL> jdong: because fsck on hard drives comes to be needed because of HD cache poweroff?
[18:26] <jdong> LjjjL: well in a way yes -- the HD writeback cache is EVIL because the disk reports to the OS stuff is written when in reality it's being held in on-disk cache.
[18:26] <LjjjL> jdong: so what the filesystem would like to call atomic writes aren't really?
[18:26] <jdong> LjjjL: because of that, a lot of the assumptions of journaling FSes for integrity are completely invalid on consumer hard drives
[18:26] <jdong> and that could lead to Fs structural damage easily on bad shutdowns
[18:27] <jdong> so yeah, "atomic writes" are far from so...
[18:27] <LjjjL> jdong: couldn't they just have dunno, a capacitor in the HD to let it stay powered on that split millisecond to finish off the write?
[18:27] <jdong> LjjjL: pfft that costs MONEY.
[18:27] <jdong> or a battery backed cache system like Real Servers (tm) use.
[18:27] <LjjjL> jdong: a *capacitor*?
[18:28] <jdong> yeah, requires a voltage regulator on board and such
[18:28] <LjjjL> hm
[18:28] <jdong> recently there's been some work twards so-called "write barriers" which flush the on-disk cache at the correct times to sync with journal commits.
[18:28] <jdong> however, write barriers currently do not work at all with LVM or crypto backends
[18:28] <LjjjL> jdong: that would be software or hardware stuff?
[18:28] <Myrtti> does xchat have public away on default?
[18:28] <jdong> software
[18:28] <Myrtti> hopefully not?
[18:28] <jdong> Myrtti: no way
[18:29] <Myrtti> ok, he found the setting
[18:29] <Myrtti> ok, carbohydrate induced coma in 3.. 2..
[18:29] <jdong> LjjjL: ext3 "works around" this risk by writing really verbosely redundant FS and journal structures so that it can somewhat cope with losing a huge chunk and such. However, more performance optimized Fses like XFS, reiserfs, JFS do not do this...
[18:29] <jdong> and hence the higher observed rate of total FS trashing on bad shutdown with these filesystems
[18:30] <LjjjL> ah
[18:30] <LjjjL> jdong: so they aren't really "buggy" as people tend to say, they're just like intended for real HDs?
[18:30] <jdong> right. they assume that when a disk tells em something is written, that it is written.
[18:30] <jdong> oh the horror.
[18:31] <LjjjL> jdong: reminds me of when in the old times my mom would ask if i did my homework.
[18:31] <jdong> lol exactly right :) it works 99% of the time to say yes beforehands but when the crap hits the fan you are SCREWED
[18:31] <jdong> and besides bad shutdowns -- think about encountering IO errors on the block layer.
[18:31] <jdong> NOW what does the disk do? It already said it was written okay.
[18:32] <LjjjL> jdong: and the italian for it - in school context - would be much alike a "bad log entry"...
[18:32] <jdong> it can't exactly change its mind on a return code :)
[18:32] <LjjjL> jdong: there isn't a -ENOWAIT code? :P
[18:32] <LjjjL> as in, "no, wait"
[18:32] <jdong> lol
[18:33] <jdong> as far as I've heard disks do not do this consistently
[18:33] <jdong> i.e. what happens when the disk attempts to flush its cache to find that it can't find a non-defective block to write it to
[18:33] <jdong> I believe the generally accepted failure mode is every (or some) disk commands afterwards return generic IO error codes
[18:33] <jdong> which also leads to deceiving info on exactly WHICH block is defective
[18:34] <LjjjL> jdong: which surely goes a long way to correctly diagnosing the problem *rolleyes*
[18:34] <jdong> lol indeed
[18:34] <jdong> just the whole consumer disk market scares me once you look into what's going on.
[18:34] <LjjjL> jdong: but just how often will a drive not find a non-damaged block to write to?
[18:35] <jdong> probably not often if the drive firmware is smart about fallbacks.
[18:35] <jdong> i.e. if I told it to write 0xDEADBEEF to block 0x12345678, and 0x12345678 later turns out to be bad, does the disk actually go do a remap?
[18:35] <LjjjL> jdong: yeah it scares me too while you explain it, though on the other hand i've had drives last for many years and not lose my data so it can't be all that bad
[18:35] <jdong> I believe most disks only reserve like on the order of 5% of blocks for rewrites.
[18:35] <LjjjL> jdong: i thought disks generally did
[18:36] <LjjjL> jdong: mhm, but when there's more than 5% of damaged blocks, most chances are that the drive is going to heaven, or not?
[18:36] <jdong> since the upper IO layers only see errors when the lower layer runs out of remappable blocks, I don't think it's that rare of an occurrence.
[18:36] <jdong> LjjjL: whenever I see a single IO error from the block layer, I eseentially toss out the drive.
[18:36] <jdong> 99% of people I know do not do this.
[18:37] <jdong> if it kinda works again after a reformat or chkdsk, they chug on
[18:37] <LjjjL> jdong: i guess i do not. best i do is when i have nothing else to do, check smartctl and have a glance at the badblocks entry
[18:37] <jdong> yeah for me disks are too cheap to be playing this guessing game
[18:37] <LjjjL> jdong: besides, my desktop's drive sometimes makes some scary clicking or even whirring noises. did that since i've bought it. but smartctl seems "ok" so *cough*
[18:38] <jdong> I mean I might save those disks for screwing around, but for data where uptime matters if I have to bring down the machine to make a repair I get the job done totally.
[18:38] <LjjjL> jdong: well, keep in mind i'm only talking about my home machines
[18:38] <jdong> my experience with SMART has been anything but that.
[18:38] <LjjjL> no money at stake
[18:38] <jdong> I've had to rescue data from friends' drives that started failing before SMART said a word.
[18:38] <jdong> once after I got all 160GB off the next reboot SMART tripped at the BIOS
[18:39] <jdong> yeah... thanks a lot!
[18:40] <LjL> jdong: well it does what it can, after all it's kind of impressive how many sensors disks seem to have
[18:40] <jdong> yeah, it is pretty neat what it does
[18:40] <LjL> jdong: (although after what you said i wonder - wouldn't it be money better spent putting a darn capacitor in?)
[18:40] <jdong> and it certainly pr ovides good info that can be used to predict a failure; though is it REALLY going to do so more often than not?
[18:40] <jdong> and I should point out that most of the info SMART reports comes gratuitous from disk write operations.
[18:41] <jdong> the only advancement in technology is microcontrollers have 100 bytes or whatnot of nonvolatile memory for $0.01 now.
[18:41] <LjL> jdong: you know what gets on my nerves?
[18:41] <jdong> LjL: see this from tyso regarding consumer hardware and why ext3 is verbosely journaled: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Filesystems/reiserfs.html
[18:42] <LjL> jdong: that i don't know all the stuff you do about disks is normal i think, given if i knew "everything about computers" i'd have a brain core dump for sure
[18:42] <LjL> jdong: but then, i don't go around writing blog articles about how SSDs are more reliable than HDDs
[18:42] <LjL> jdong: more reliable my ASS, it just messed up after a couple of months of (not really) being used
[18:42] <jdong> LjL: it does mention that SGI for their XFS powered hardware *do* use large caps to make sure the FS can at least journal itself correctly before death
[18:43] <jdong> and IMO SSD-is-more-*-than-HDD claims are mostly unfounded claims.
[18:43] <jdong> I've been saying this since a year ago when SSD's started hitting the general consumer market like crazy
[18:43] <LjL> jdong: i really do guess so, and i believe it's people like me who make such claims on the web. i just think if they don't know they shouldn't divulge.
[18:44] <jdong> right. Gut feeling and reality often differ in unintuitive ways
[18:44] <jdong> I was saying this even back in the iPod days when people claimed iPods with disks are more prone to failure due to rough handling...
[18:44] <LjL> jdong: if you google eeepc ssd corrupt, or something like that, you'll find a very, uh, scientific calculation on a blog that concludes my eeepc's ssd should last 84 years if written all the time.
[18:44] <jdong> I've done some work in the automotive industry where long term quality is SERIOUSLY studied
[18:44] <LjL> jdong: well intuition does suggest that
[18:45] <jdong> and for mass storage toshiba 4200rpm automotive drives are by far preferred
[18:45] <jdong> for the most part the reason an iPod dies is not due to hard disk damage from bumping/dropping it.
[18:45] <jdong> other things will break first -- and I've had SSD media players fail on me too
[18:45] <LjL> jdong: one slight disadvantages of hds on these things (like say my mom's NC10 compared to my eeepc) is, well, that the HD vibrates and makes a bit of noise. *shrug*
[18:45] <jdong> yeah
[18:45] <jdong> noise IMO is a valid reason.
[18:46] <LjL> jdong: although the slow ones in notebooks can be pretty silent i suspect
[18:46] <jdong> but power savings, performance, reliability... I take those claims with a grain of salt
[18:46] <jdong> yeah the 4200rpm drives , good quality ones, are deathly silent.
[18:46] <jdong> and hitachi has some 7200rpm laptop drives that are equally whisper quiet
[18:46] <LjL> jdong: the netbooks generally have a 5... err, 5600? rpm one
[18:46] <LjL> jdong: silent enough
[18:47] <jdong> netbooks usually use 5400rpm drives
[18:47] <LjL> i mean, you'll hear it if you're reading stuff on your bed at 4am i guess
[18:47] <LjL> right, 5400
[18:47] <jdong> they are the cheapest as they are most popular
[18:47] <jdong> the 4200rpm ones are typically very special-purpose (i.e. paying extra for shock tolerance)
[18:47] <LjL> jdong: you know what was fun? my not-really-portable-but-anyway 386 that i used at university when my Psion was broken
[18:48] <jdong> and that gets on my nerves when people whine about a laptop has a "4200rpm drive"... not realizing that's actually a premium option!
[18:48] <LjL> jdong: it took about 5 minutes to boot debian, and the whole classroom could hear the drive during boot.
[18:48] <jdong> haha
[18:48] <jdong> I had an 80MB seagate drive like that
[18:48] <jdong> it's like the size of a Mac Mini inside the 386 and makes crunching sounds
[18:48] <LjL> jdong: also, the battery was completely gone, so i had to keep it plugged into the socket. but... then there was the mid-lesson pause... and before i could yell "MIND THE WIRE"...
[18:48] <LjL> well, you know.
[18:48] <jdong> ouch
[18:49] <LjL> jdong: then they'd say "don't worry, i wasn't hurt". and i'd say "who cares, I HADN'T SAVED"
[18:50] <jdong> haha
[18:58] <LjL> jdong: think the 5400 rpm ones in netbooks are also a bit more resilient than the 7200 rpms or whatever that they tend to sell OEM?
[19:02] <LjL> uhm, someone review the ban i just did if you like, it might not have been as racist as the url suggested i suppose
[19:02] <Pici> LjL: Still completely offtopic, plus he had not said anything else.
[19:02] <LjL> Pici: true that, but i generally don't ban without warning for being offtopic
[19:03] <Pici> LjL: Unban then :)
[19:19] <LjL> [20:19:04] --> owen9376 has joined this channel (i=chatzill@unaffiliated/ciaran9376).
[19:19] <LjL> nick rings a bell
[19:20] <LjL> ah but no, probably just coincidence, this one has been registered for some months
[19:20] <Tm_T> LjL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_My_Bell
[19:21]  * Pici blinks
[19:21] <LjL> Tm_T: i read <mneptok> rather than <Tm_T> there for a moment
[19:21] <Pici> Scary
[19:30] <jdong> LjL: it depends on the specific models of the drives and the specs they are rated for
[19:33] <jdong> for example, looking at the cream-of-the-crop resilient drives:
[19:33] <jdong> 7200RPM: http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Path=StorageSolutions/2.5-inchHardDiskDrives/MKxx54GSYSeries/MKxx54GSYspecs
[19:33] <jdong> 4200RPM: http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Path=StorageSolutions/2.5-inchHardDiskDrives/MK2035GSS/MK2035GSSSpecifications
[19:33] <jdong> 7200RPM takes 300G's of shock, 4200RPM takes 325G's
[19:33] <jdong> meh not a huge difference
[19:34] <jdong> honestly at the point of 300G's, there's a whole hell of a lot of other things that'll break first!
[19:34] <jdong> also note their power requirement ratings -- not a big deal of difference between them
[19:35] <jdong> in fact the 7200RPM drive seeks with less power draw -- combine that with the fact you need less seek time on the bigger drive, and which one is more power-saving suddenly becomes a pretty tight race
[19:36] <Seeker`> i suspect that if you are with the laptop when it is accelerating at 300G, you probably wont be in a position to care when the data is safe
[19:36] <jdong> lol
[19:36] <jdong> exactly.
[19:36] <jdong> for all intents and purposes IMO it's not much less hardy than an SSD unless you're designing a plane's black box.
[19:36] <jdong> now another drive I want to point your attention to are Toshiba's automotive drives: http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Path=StorageSolutions/2.5-inchHardDiskDrives/MK8057GSC/MK8057GSCSpecs
[19:37] <jdong> this one is also "4200 RPM" but note the power draw specs
[19:37] <jdong> 0.25W standby, 0.8-1.0W idle, 2.0W while active.
[19:37] <jdong> not exactly much worse, if any, than your average SSD
[19:39] <jdong> some of their 1.8" drives designed for use in like iPods and other ultra-abusive environments are rated upwards of 500G's operatinal shock and like a couple thousand nonoperational G's
[19:40] <jdong> at that point you're probably gonna snap whatever connector it uses before you worry about the drive dying :)
[19:42] <jdong> goes back to my whole point that SSD's in a netbook is primarily a cost-saving measure, and the opinion that it is say, hardier than those 4200rpm drives in Thinkpads / Macbook Airs are probably intuition or urban legend than truth.
[20:00] <Amaranth> jdong: tyso recently said similar things about ext4
[20:00] <jdong> Amaranth: yeah, ext4 is going to introduce the fun of XFS and friends for the masses.
[20:00] <jdong> or at least those crazy enough to select it becaues it's SHINY
[20:01] <Amaranth> essentially he said we need to rewrite sqlite and replace gconf with it in order to use ext4 on a desktop
[20:17] <LjL> wow
[20:17] <LjL> lights dimmed briefly
[20:17] <LjL> TV stopped broadcasting
[20:17] <LjL> and i think i hear some alarms in the distance
[20:17] <Nafallo> OMG
[20:17] <LjL> what might this mean? :o)
[20:17] <Nafallo> LjL have a broadcasting TV!
[20:18] <LjL> Nafallo: no not mine :P but i live some 100 meters from milan's RAI antenna
[20:18] <LjL> i can see it
[20:19] <LjL> the lights on it were down, it's back up now though
[20:19] <Nafallo> LjL: your neighbor stopped playing with the flashlight finally?
[20:19] <Nafallo> :-P
[20:20] <LjL> Nafallo: or perhaps some tree in Switzerland just fell on a high voltage wire to Italy, like last time we had a nationwide blackout ;)
[20:20] <Seeker`> LjL: is that all it took?
[20:20] <Nafallo> ha!
[20:20] <Amaranth> LjL: that usually means tornado around here :P
[20:21] <LjL> Seeker`: yup
[20:21] <LjL> Seeker`: since in '86 after chernobyl we voted against nuclear (and closed all our expensive plants we were building), we buy about 80% of our electricity from france and switzerland
[20:21] <LjL> ... who make it using nuclear
[20:21] <Seeker`> woo for dependance on other countries
[20:22] <LjL> Seeker`: so that night almost all of our own plants were off, because there wasn't really much demand, and buying from the french is cheaper than making our own
[20:22] <Seeker`> LjL: I suspect the vote against it was "not in my back yard" rather than "nuclear power is bad and wrong"
[20:22] <LjL> so an important wire was cut, and blam
[20:22] <LjL> Seeker`: yeah. we're apparently going back to nuclear now anyway
[20:22] <Seeker`> cascade failure when the plants tried to turn back on?
[20:23] <LjL> Seeker`: i bet most northern italians don't even realize we have french plants almost in our backyards to begin with
[20:23] <Seeker`> heh
[20:23] <LjL> Seeker`: no, just not enough power to turn off any plants to begin with
[20:23] <Seeker`> ah
[20:23] <LjL> Seeker`: actually, i'll tell you how they re-bootstrapped the system
[20:23] <LjL> Seeker`: Milan and Brescia "used to" have their own electric grids in the old days (dunno exactly how many decades ago), mostly done with hydroelectric
[20:24] <LjL> Seeker`: then with nationalization, they were "required by law" to dismantle all their separate system
[20:24] <LjL> Seeker`: they never did
[20:24] <LjL> Seeker`: so, since they actually *were* still able to disconnect themselves from the rest of the grid... they just started the hydro plants, and that was used to bootstrap the country
[20:24] <Seeker`> nice
[20:25] <LjL> Seeker`: which meant that, myself, i didn't even notice the black out (it was 10 minutes during the night in milan), but in certain places in the south it lasted about 15 hours
[20:25] <Seeker`> slowly reconnect it to enough of the network to boot another power station and so on?
[20:25] <Seeker`> nice
[20:25] <LjL> Seeker`: yep
[20:26] <LjL> Seeker`: after that, they started (slowly) changing our home circuit breakers into stuff that can be remote controlled by them :)
[20:26] <Seeker`> nice
[20:26] <Seeker`> so they can shut of all the houses in case they need to bootstrap the system again?
[20:28] <LjL> Seeker`: well, i'm not really sure how much weight the houses have over industries and stuff... but yeah they can do that if needed
[20:28] <LjL> Seeker`: i suppose they could selectively, say, turn on hospitals
[20:29] <LjL> (which OUGHT TO have their back up generators... if they were ever tested)
[20:29] <Pici> (we do generator testing every month here)
[20:30] <LjL> Pici: (we do too. the documents say that! they can't be lying)
[20:30] <Seeker`> they tested the backup generator at the hospital I worked at occasionally
[20:30] <Pici> (and the servers have two levels of battery backup in addition to the generators)
[20:30] <LjL> Pici: (just like the documents said that Milan and Brescia had stopped having their own grid. of course everyone was thankful that was not the case, and nobody said anything)
[20:30]  * genii sips and thinks about the scary countries which now have bootstrapping capability
[20:32] <LjL> genii: it was probably mean of me but i giggled a bit too. i mean, all i got was a blinking alarm clock... but to hear they had stuff melting in their freezers in the south... :P
[20:32] <genii> LjL: Time to have large barbecue parties :)
[20:33] <LjL> i guess :)
[20:33] <LjL> oh, also, there was the so called white night in Rome that night
[20:33] <genii> (thats what we did here in Toronto in the huge blackout)
[20:33] <LjL> bet they had fun
[20:33] <LjL> what with the subway grinding to a halt and all
[20:33] <genii> Yeah when public transit dies, anarchy begins
[20:33] <genii> (and the taxi drivers get rich)
[20:34] <LjL> well from what i could gather though we behaved less italian than one would expect that time
[20:34] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[20:34]  * Myrtti yawns
[20:40] <LjL> Amaranth: i have to say not only i barely know what a tornado would be like, but the worst we ever get in milan is some useless underground-ed river flooding stuff a bit in the north...
[20:40] <LjL> boring city.
[20:41] <LjL> at least i'm a trains fanatic so i can follow every single subway mishap.
[20:44] <LjL> oh and we had a earthquake some months ago. i even felt it.
[20:51] <Amaranth> wow
[20:51] <Amaranth> next time we get an earthquake we'll probably be falling into a giant hole in the ground
[20:52] <Amaranth> last earthquake in the area was in the late 1800s and made science reevaluate what causes earthquakes
[20:53] <genii> We had a tremor here once my time. The top of the CN tower swayed about 12 metres
[20:57] <genii> I wonder how ppl can live in places like LA where the earth moves quite often. That would freak me out
[20:57] <Myrtti> finland ♥
[20:59] <genii> Myrtti: They have many earthquakes there?
[20:59] <jussi01> rofl... earthquakes?
[20:59] <Myrtti> _none_
[20:59] <genii> Yay!
[21:00] <Amaranth> finland is perfect
[21:00] <Amaranth> but cold
[21:00] <Myrtti> finland is one of the most stable area in the worlg geologically i believe
[21:01] <jussi01> Earthquakes are when the snow ploughs drive by...
[21:01] <genii> Hehe... those must be monster plows...
[21:01] <jussi01> :P
[21:01] <Myrtti> one of the reasons why theres plans for nuclear waste caves
[21:02] <genii> Bleh... who'd want to live on top of tons of depleted uranium?
[21:02] <Myrtti> the west coast has some tremors sometimes
[21:03] <Myrtti> due to the crust returning to its normal state after the last ice age
[21:04] <genii> "work is over" alarm went off. See you guys in a bit :)
[21:04]  * genii brews a pot of coffee for the channel before /away
[21:05] <topyli> some people set alarms to make it to the office in time in the morning. genii sets an alarm at the office to remind him to stop
[21:05] <Myrtti> lovely idea
[21:06] <Myrtti> *I* *need* *that*
[21:08] <Myrtti> I need both
[21:09] <nickspoon> We have the technology for that now.
[21:09] <topyli> i once saw the perfect office clock in some online store. an analog clock that had no digits but the "5"
[21:10] <nickspoon> Haha, awesome.
[21:10] <topyli> alas, it was some expensive brand and cost something like $200
[21:10] <nickspoon> :(
[21:10] <topyli> some designer thing, although very simple
[21:10] <Myrtti> i need that fuzzy clock
[21:11] <Myrtti> "work" "not work" "weekend" "prepare for work"
[21:11] <topyli> hehehe
[21:11] <topyli> "friday afternoon"
[21:11] <Myrtti> topyli: thats "tgif"
[21:12] <topyli> ah yes
[21:12] <Myrtti> Prepare for work would be sun 1800 ->
[21:13] <topyli> "beer only"
[21:13] <Amaranth> I need that clock that runs away from you
[21:14] <Amaranth> although I'd probably smash it the first time I caught it
[21:14] <Myrtti> i should start using my kitten clock again
[21:15] <Myrtti> it makes the most horrible alarm
[21:16] <topyli> this is the office clock: http://www.vestaldesign.com/blog/2007/01/the-only-clock-youll-ever-need/
[21:17] <nickspoon> topyli: Couldn't you achieve the same thing by taking all but one of the numbers off of a normal clock?
[21:18] <topyli> sure, or buy just the mechanism, attach it to a blank face and draw the 5
[21:19] <Amaranth> time is money
[21:31] <LjL> what's a tremor and what makes it different from an earthquake?
[21:31] <LjL> i get some... tremor... several times a day, i guess. but that's just the train.
[21:32] <topyli> LjL: might be similar to what Myrtti was talking about. except in finland, the papers will write about it when it happens :)
[21:33] <Myrtti> LjL: here it's called an earthquake. I'm sure anyone from California or Japan or someplace that has proper ones would brush off without noticing them
[21:33] <topyli> "little tremors felt by some on the coastline!"
[21:33] <Myrtti> "ppffftttttt"
[21:33] <Myrtti> "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS  FALLING"
[21:34] <Myrtti> "yeah, right. Have some coffee"
[21:36] <LjL> topyli, Myrtti: uhm then i suppose when i said we had an earthquake some months ago, it was really a "tremor". at least in milan. my back felt weird like my heart had suddenly started beating up like mad, then i realized it was the armchair... and i could hear something rattling somewhere
[21:37] <LjL> thought i guess i was somewhat more than that where it actually happened, there was a video on youtube with everything falling down the shelves in a supermarket =)
[21:37] <topyli> heh. that's not a "tremor" anymore :)
[21:38] <LjL> well i don't think we have a separate word in italian anyway (at least not the non-earthquake-experts), we just call them an earthquake
[21:39] <LjL> nickspoon: hey, you spoke in here!
[21:39] <LjL> the sky is falling.
[21:39] <Myrtti> "Mikään Suomen historiassa tapahtunut järistys ei ole ylittänyt viittä richteriä." "None of the earthquakes in Finland has exceeded 5 on Richter scale"
[21:40] <LjL> Myrtti: i think that one here was about 5... though i might be wrong. wait, i don't mean here, i mean at the epicenter which was... i don't remember where.
[21:40] <Myrtti> apparently a church had to be rebuilt in the late 1700ths because of an earthquake.
[21:41] <Myrtti> woo.
[21:41] <tonyyarusso> Good lord, does the bot never decide to remember me?
[21:41] <tonyyarusso> @login
[21:42] <jussi01> tonyyarusso: only if you dont remember it ;)
[21:42] <topyli> tonyyarusso: what about the terminal? :(
[21:42] <tonyyarusso> ubottu: no, ftp is <reply> FTP clients: !Nautilus, !gFTP, FileZilla (for !GNOME); !Konqueror, !Kasablanca, !KFTPGrabber (for !KDE); FireFTP (for !Firefox); ftp, lftp (for !cli) - See also !FTPd
[21:43] <LjL> Myrtti: we just call our churches great pieces of the human art before they get thrown down by an earthquake... and then we start calling them free building material :P
[21:44] <jussi01> hehe
[21:44] <topyli> we just call them "a church"
[21:44] <LjL> topyli: wait, that's an idea!
[21:45] <topyli> protestants make these standard churches that are not much to talk about
[21:45] <LjL> but no, great pieces of human art to become free building material is better.
[21:46] <LjL> topyli: i'd protest on such an attitude :(
[21:46] <topyli> LjL: that's a nice, modern way to look at it. all this talk about free culture, remix, reuse :)
[21:46] <LjL> topyli: reusable materials for the win - sure, you might lose a few of Leonardo's paintings here and there, but.
[21:47] <Myrtti> rather depressing... http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/3134150574/
[21:47] <tonyyarusso> Myrtti: is that a normal service?
[21:47] <LjL> Myrtti: looks protestant
[21:47] <tonyyarusso> Looks empty.
[21:48] <LjL> well, *shrug*
[21:48] <topyli> that's actually a pretty great building, not a standard finnish church at all
[21:49] <jussi01> Myrtti: were you bored? http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/3134017902/in/photostream/
[21:50] <topyli> that should be retitled to "high ceiling is high"
[21:50] <LjL> heh
[21:50] <topyli> jussi01: she's waiting for ceiling cat to appear
[21:51] <jussi01> hahaha
[21:51] <jussi01> topyli: Myrtti translation? näkee
[21:51] <tonyyarusso> I don't think I have a picture handy that really shows our architecture well - http://stmichaelselca.com/worship.html has snippets.
[21:52] <topyli> "he/she/it sees"
[21:52] <LjL> i don't think i really remember what one of our churches looks like.
[21:52] <jussi01> ahh
[21:52] <jussi01> topyli: now I feel stupid - I knew tha :/
[21:53] <LjL> jussi01: you've been finnish since like forever and you don't know "to see"? :P
[21:53] <jussi01> LjL: have you seen the base word for see?
[21:53] <jussi01> its somewhat different htan that...
[21:53] <LjL> jussi01: it'll probably be something like nöglyaa
[21:53] <jussi01> it gets confusing at times
[21:54] <LjL> assuming it even begins with n
[21:54] <jussi01> yes... it does :P
[21:54] <topyli> heh. "nähdä"
[21:54] <topyli> duh. obviously
[21:54] <LjL> tis not even that different!
[21:54] <LjL> shame on you, jussi.
[21:54] <jussi01> /kb LjL
[21:54] <topyli> yeah, almost half the word is similar
[21:54] <jussi01> hahah
[21:55] <LjL> you'd like "to go" in italian
[21:55] <topyli> not quite enough to complete the first syllable though :)
[21:55] <tonyyarusso> ugh - /me remembers trying to fathom to go
[21:55] <LjL> "vado" = "i go"
[21:55] <LjL> "andiamo" = "we go"
[21:55] <tonyyarusso> to make is a little easier
[21:55] <LjL> faccio fai fa facciamo fate fanno
[21:56] <LjL> it's irregular, but with dignity :)
[21:56] <nickspoon> My my, that is a high ceiling.
[21:56] <LjL> "to go" is really two different latin verbs intermingled together
[21:56] <Myrtti> jussi01: it's not a sign of being bored, it's a sign of my fear of heights
[21:56] <topyli> LjL: heh i like that. is "irregular but with dignity" a real linguistic concept? :)
[21:56] <jussi01> Myrtti: hhahhahaah
[21:56] <Myrtti> tonyyarusso: no it wasn't a normal service
[21:56] <LjL> topyli: it ought to be!
[21:56] <topyli> indeed!
[21:56]  * tonyyarusso brings Myrtti to the top of the CN tower and has her stand on the glass floor of the observation deck
[21:57] <Myrtti> tonyyarusso: only if you want me to barf into your bag and go shiver in a dark closet
[21:57] <nickspoon> ire!
[21:57] <LjL> then there is the italian simple past.
[21:57] <jussi01> Myrtti: would you prefer loops n an open cockpit tiger moth ? :P
[21:57] <LjL> *so* many verbs i have no idea what the simple past for would be.
[21:57] <topyli> when i visited rome, i visited churches for once. three of them!
[21:58] <topyli> then again, rome has st. peters and the pantheon, so it's rather difficult not to go
[21:58] <LjL> topyli: i guess. never been in rome :|
[21:58] <topyli> :-o
[21:58] <LjL> yeah, i know
[21:58] <LjL> i've been in venice though. three times!
[21:59] <topyli> well it's actually not that hard to miss st. peters, you do have to actually *go* there
[21:59] <LjL> admittedly, it's only a two hours train ride.
[21:59] <Myrtti> jussi01: with all my love...
[21:59] <Myrtti> I'm truly sorry if any on the channel residents feel offended by this
[21:59] <Myrtti> jussi01: fuck off.
[22:00] <LjL> i concur!
[22:00] <Myrtti> I can't stand on a kitchen chair without getting queezy.
[22:00] <nickspoon> I hate heights too :(
[22:00] <jussi01> fine!
[22:00] <nickspoon> Ooooooooooooooooooooo.
[22:00] <topyli> :-o
[22:00] <Myrtti> drama queen
[22:00] <Myrtti> :-P
[22:00] <Myrtti> LjL: you're so nasty :-(
[22:00] <LjL> i know.
[22:00] <nickspoon> It's his nature.
[22:01] <LjL> he's not rejoining anyway...
[22:01] <topyli> it is midnight anyway, i bet he just went to bed :)
[22:01] <nickspoon> He'll come back to a nasty surprise if nobody repeals it.
[22:01] <LjL> topyli: wasn't he in england lately?
[22:01] <Myrtti> was
[22:01] <topyli> hmm that's right, not sure about today
[22:02] <LjL> nickspoon: has access to /cs unban anyway
[22:02] <LjL> whops.
[22:02] <jussi01> nasty people
[22:02] <LjL> jussi01: no you, banforward dodger.
[22:02]  * jussi01 goes to check the irssi connection to see what thats about..
[22:03] <jussi01_> oh! you nasty person LjL !!
[22:03] <LjL> :p
[22:03] <TheUnderTaker> Is that ban still in effect that ljl put down
[22:03] <LjL> TheUnderTaker: let me check
[22:03] <jussi01> LjL: I was in england recently, and will be again ;)
[22:04]  * Myrtti checks her countdown
[22:04] <LjL> TheUnderTaker: err, *which* ban was that again?
[22:04] <Myrtti> 6d, 1h, 45min!
[22:04] <TheUnderTaker> umm the ban you put on me like 6 months ago
[22:04] <Myrtti> whee!
[22:05] <LjL> TheUnderTaker: i suspect you had a different nickname back then...?
[22:05] <TheUnderTaker> Jnelson i thinkl
[22:05] <LjL> oh christ, you
[22:05] <LjL> weren't you around on freenode *as* jnelson just a day or two ago
[22:06] <TheUnderTaker> I havent used that in 6 weeks
[22:07] <TheUnderTaker> still in effect?
[22:07] <LjL> afraid so
[22:08] <TheUnderTaker> how long
[22:08] <LjL> afraid it's a permban for what i'm concerned
[22:08] <TheUnderTaker> ok w/e
[22:08] <LjL> though you might want to bring it to the council, i suppose
[22:08] <TheUnderTaker> council?
[22:09] <LjL> TheUnderTaker: check the link on this channel's topic
[22:09] <TheUnderTaker> ircteam linkk?
[22:09] <LjL> yeah
[22:10] <LjL> also
[22:10] <TheUnderTaker> i though it was up to the person who banned me to remove the ban
[22:10] <LjL> [Fri Mar 6 2009] [20:05:28] Join        Slimer has joined this channel (n=jnelson@h69-130-54-33.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net).
[22:10] <LjL> that was #kde
[22:10] <TheUnderTaker> i dont have comcast
[22:10] <LjL> TheUnderTaker: yes but the person who banned you won't remove it.
[22:10] <TheUnderTaker> i mean that
[22:10] <LjL> so if you want it removed, you'll have to appeal to higher spheres.
[22:11] <TheUnderTaker> how do i bring it to the council
[22:11] <LjL> read the link.
[22:11] <LjL> i'm not spoonfeeding it to you.
[22:11] <TheUnderTaker> ok bye
[22:11] <LjL> @mark #ubuntu-ops theundertaker This is "john_nel"
[22:12] <jussi01> LjL: what did he do to annoy you so?
[22:12] <LjL> jussi01: complete troll. when he was first banned, he reacted by calling ! ops in just about every channel under the #ubuntu namespace
[22:12] <topyli> i took a look at the bantracker. this is a very bad boy
[22:12] <LjL> jussi01: just bansearch john_nel on the tracker
[22:12] <jussi01> oh...mlovely
[22:13] <Seeker`> @btlogin
[22:14] <nickspoon> Night gents and ladies.
[22:14] <Seeker`> wow
[22:14] <Seeker`> lots of aliases
[22:15] <Myrtti> that's impressive
[22:16] <LjL> night nickspoon
[22:28] <LjL> ...
[22:28] <LjL> now this spanish fellow claims his mirc disconnects when he attempts to join #ubuntu-es
[22:36] <Seeker`> this is odd
[22:41] <Amaranth> LjL: use a different program
[22:41] <Amaranth> Not sure how we're supposed to help with that?
[22:42] <LjL> Amaranth: hm?
[22:48] <Myrtti> @bansearch anahata
[22:50] <LjL> Myrtti: no bans on tcq.net, ever
[22:50] <LjL> maybe she or he just didn't know what to put in as an ident and realname...
[22:51] <Myrtti> somehow that nick just makes me shiver
[22:52] <Myrtti> reminds me of something that I can't put my finger on
[22:52] <LjL> Myrtti: yes that's true, there's something to it
[22:53] <LjL> Myrtti: floodbot muted her earlier but that's about it
[22:54] <LjL> Myrtti: if someone were to nmap her, i think the responses would be a bit weird. although google doesn't list the IP as a proxy
[22:57] <Myrtti> eh
[22:57] <Myrtti> did any of you notice that we have someone by the nick of automatix at #ubuntu now
[22:57] <LjL> yeah, since a few days
[22:57] <LjL> annoys me to no end since (of course) i have that as a highlight
[22:57] <Myrtti> that's so super *CREEPY*
[22:58] <Seeker`> "since a few days"?
[22:58] <LjL> i suppose i could remove it by now... that nothing uses it anymore
[22:58] <Myrtti> I'd so a regexp hilight
[22:58] <Myrtti> s/so/do/
[22:58] <LjL> Seeker`: i meant we've had that user around for at least a few days
[22:58] <LjL> Myrtti: there was another user who annoyed me, "automatRix" - i had that as highlight too because it was a very common misspelling of automatix
[23:01] <Myrtti> ok, I need a holiday from work
[23:01] <Myrtti> I started to do that regexp hilight
[23:01]  * Myrtti smacks herself
[23:02] <LjL> consider also that she's the *only* user on the network from tcq.net...