=== asac_ is now known as asac === teKnofreak is now known as techno_freak === mdz_ is now known as mdz === ScottK2 is now known as ScottK === jussio1 is now known as jussi01 [15:57] yo yo, hula ring, and other greetings [15:58] hello [15:59] waaaaazzzz uuuuuup! :P [15:59] Hey folks. [16:00] hi [16:01] #startmeeting [16:01] Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is robbiew. [16:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:01] hi [16:02] * robbiew waits for others [16:02] mvo: cjwatson: liw: Keybuk: ready to go? [16:02] ready [16:02] yes [16:02] robbiew, sure [16:02] james_w: are you awake...in Brisbane, right? [16:03] just turn off those 5 red lights and I'm off [16:03] heh [16:03] * liw censors bad joke [16:03] It would actually be an hour earlier for james_w than it is for me. [16:03] So 2 AM. [16:04] ouch [16:04] ok...let's get started [16:04] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0311#Agenda [16:04] LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0311#Agenda [16:04] so Alpha 6 is tomorrow...whoohoo :D [16:04] sorry I'm late; my stepson left his cello in school which slowed the normal flow of events [16:05] heh [16:05] now worries, just started [16:05] [TOPIC] Jaunty Alpha 6 [16:05] New Topic: Jaunty Alpha 6 [16:05] so are those 4 bugs supposed to be fixed by tomorrow?...or pushed to Beta [16:06] the gnome-keyring one was targeted courtesy of the mobile team, and is assigned to one of their guys; I'll follow up on that [16:06] ok [16:06] since it's only been reported on ARM, we wouldn't need any rebuilds to get it "fixed" for alpha-6 [16:07] I meant to put bug 337306 off until beta, since my first attempt to fix it failed and I haven't had a chance to revisit; done now [16:07] ok, thansk [16:07] Launchpad bug 337306 in oem-config "oem-config task selection doesn't work with debconf-using packages" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/337306 [16:07] well...none of the bugs seem to bad to me...moving on [16:08] well...100% CPU is a little nasty :P [16:08] skipping Feature Status update...I think we're fine there [16:09] 91 bugs targeted for Jaunty [16:09] no critical...that's nice [16:10] hi doko :) [16:10] sorry, a bit late (and I have to leave in a few minutes :-/ [16:10] anyway...wanted to highlight the bug fixes report [16:10] doko: no worries [16:11] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html [16:11] LINK received: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html [16:11] has everyone..or anyone...seen this? [16:11] yes [16:11] no [16:12] it's interesting...even has a "scoreboard" at the bottom [16:12] seb is not winning! [16:12] though I don't really care about who fixes the most...as there's no way to measure difficulty [16:12] I'm looking through the jaunty bugs and giving some more of them priorities [16:12] or complexity of the resolution [16:12] ok [16:13] cjwatson: ^ [16:13] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/ubuntu-foundations-jaunty-fixes-report.html [16:13] LINK received: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/ubuntu-foundations-jaunty-fixes-report.html [16:13] gives a view of the team [16:13] have to look at the ca-certificates-java bugs, but I think most of these are already fixed [16:14] though poor liw is not represented...more incentive for upload rights [16:14] ;) [16:14] * liw hangs head in shame [16:14] liw: all that means is someone is stealing your thunder :P [16:15] [TOPIC] Team Buglist [16:15] New Topic: Team Buglist [16:15] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html [16:15] LINK received: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-foundations-assigned-bug-tasks.html [16:16] so the QA team has taken the time to document a workflow, for handling these bugs [16:16] http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamAssigned [16:16] LINK received: http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamAssigned [16:17] I'd like to stress the use of the "ct-rev" tag [16:17] I'm a little worried about the possibility that the assignment field is going to become a firehose [16:17] "If the team decides that it cannot realistically take responsibility for a given bug it should be assigned to Nobody (or a suitable community team) and the 'ct-rev' tag should be added" [16:17] * ScottK grumbles about 'assignment to a suitable community team' again. [16:17] heh [16:17] I have a sort of general concern about the workflow [16:17] * robbiew is all for "Nobody" [16:18] I think once a bug is Triaged then it ought to belong to developers to organise, not QA [16:18] for me, the problem is that there are a lot of bugs which I'm the best person to deal with [16:18] and most of them are on packages which I'm also the best person to deal with [16:18] unless it is a customer priority or other major case requiring escalation [16:18] and I tend to watch those packages [16:18] so I already know about the bugs [16:18] Keybuk, we need to clone you, you're a SPOF [16:18] and I use the assignment field to actually note which bugs I'm actively working on [16:19] if all those bugs get assigned to me, I can't do that anymore [16:19] it means as a developer, there is little left in Launchpad to help *me* manage my workflow [16:19] all of the Launchpad bells, whistles and nobs have been taken over by QA [16:19] and sidelined us [16:19] I share this concern [16:19] * doko is leaving now (worked from Daniel's place today, broken DSL). not sure if I will be online tonight [16:19] if everything is assigned to me [16:20] cjwatson: Keybuk: would it be easier to assign to the Foundations Team [16:20] and everything is in the Triaged state [16:20] and the Importance is mandated already [16:20] how do I manage my own todo list in LP? [16:20] Keybuk: you don't use 'in progress' to denote bugs you're working on? [16:20] robbiew: I'd rather it be left unassigned, and that the Triaged state should be the responsibility of developers [16:20] post-it notes [16:20] slangasek: I use In Progress to mean I have at least a partial fix [16:20] but that doesn't help with sorting [16:21] cjwatson: which developers? those watching the package? [16:21] there is a sort of general assumption here that all bugs must be on track to be fixed in some kind of reasonably near-term timescale [16:21] which is entirely fair for important bugs [16:21] but I'm concerned that it leaves us with a hell of a lot of paperwork to do for bugs that just aren't that important [16:21] but that shouldn't be expired [16:21] cjwatson: understand [16:22] actually, I think I can articulate this more clearly [16:22] there is a state not encapsulated in that document, which is "Canonical should spend time fixing this, but not in the near future" [16:22] cjwatson: good point [16:23] if we implement that by assigning bugs anywhere (be it the foundations team or an individual developer), then (a) that clutters our lists (b) it discourages contributors from working on it [16:23] but, according to that document, ct-rev + assignment to Nobody means that we aren't interested [16:23] which isn't right [16:24] well...I think it means we (Canonical) won't fix due to resources...but would still like it resolved [16:24] right [16:24] well, look at lots of the qa-jaunty-foundations bugs [16:24] and what Colin's saying is that there's another state [16:24] got it [16:24] bugs we want to fix, but not right now [16:24] that we (Canonical) won't fix it _right_now_ due to resources...but would still like it resolved...and may have the resources later [16:24] plenty of them are really old, and for the last half-dozen releases they've been in a "Canonical would like to fix this, but not yet" state [16:25] I don't think we can change this by fiat, obviously, but should raise the concern with QA [16:25] also, the page indicates that Triaged bugs may be re-triaged ("Mark as invalid, wontfix, incomplete, as a dupe, etc. i.e. triage it better") [16:25] I would like to strongly object to this [16:26] once it is Triaged, I find that further involvement by bug triage teams tends to be a net loss for me [16:26] (cf. my recent blog post) [16:26] a *developer* might choose to re-triage it if the triage was wrong, but I think this should be left to developers looking at the bug [16:26] agreed === zul_ is now known as zul [16:27] that said, I don't object at all to the QA team having a process that helps them assess Triaged bugs and flag ones that need urgent developer attention [16:28] cjwatson: Keybuk: I think you raise valid points...and encourage you to feed it back to QA ;) [16:28] fwiw, it's nice for me to be able to have something to help me gauge workload [16:28] robbiew: what is the process by which we do that? [16:29] they are collecting "Feature" requests at the bottom of the page [16:29] robbiew: I'm guessing, but I suspect you're more interested in near-term workload than "things Colin wants to work on next year" ;-) [16:29] cjwatson: heh, yes [16:29] just for when those fire drill assignments pop up [16:29] and at the same time, I want to have a way to record things that I want to look at later, without getting in *your* way [16:30] it's nice to know who I should and probably shouldn't ask [16:30] understand [16:30] * robbiew likes mvo's post-it solution (j/k) [16:30] * mvo is actually using it that for some (short-term) items [16:30] robbiew: there isn't enough room on my desk for posties [16:30] too many netbooks [16:31] it has the nice property that you can then throw the postit away when its done, a good feeling :) [16:31] Keybuk has a netbook cloud, tentatively called a "puff" [16:31] lol [16:31] lol [16:31] [TOPIC] Sponsoring Queue [16:31] New Topic: Sponsoring Queue [16:31] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ [16:31] LINK received: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ [16:33] it's there...we all know about it...some do more than others...enough said [16:33] [TOPIC] Karmic UDS [16:33] New Topic: Karmic UDS [16:33] * liw uses GTD for keeping track of bugs, outside LP [16:34] I've created a page for session suggestions [16:34] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/May2009 [16:34] LINK received: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/May2009 [16:34] when a developer can no longer use the bug tracking system to keep track of bugs ... an EPIC FAIL has occurred [16:34] Keybuk: +1 [16:35] * slangasek needs to find a way to keep track of session ideas over the course of a release cycle; I had several ideas for Karmic UDS and can't find them in my brain now [16:35] robbiew, should we add topics to that page, or discuss them with you first? [16:35] liw: just add them [16:35] * liw hits slangasek with the GTD book [16:35] liw: I'm subscribed [16:35] robbiew, ack [16:36] liw: I'm alluding to a desire to have them tracked somewhere other than on my local system though :) [16:36] slangasek: yeah...I kept a folder where I would put emails that had potential ideas [16:36] robbiew: I assume that it's unnecessary to add things for which we're having requirements calls? [16:36] cjwatson: correct :D [16:36] slangasek, I stick to my answer ;-) but I'll postpone GTD fanboyism until after the meeting [16:36] I suppose we could for public consumption [16:37] cjwatson: ^ === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [16:37] probably good to start pushing 'em out [16:38] * robbiew will update [16:38] the last thing on my list is travel [16:38] a note should be going out today or tomorrow from our lovely admin team [16:39] the goal is to have all travel booked by end of March [16:39] so just a heads up [16:39] for somehands/allhands/uds? [16:39] yes...all three [16:39] does anybody know anybody who's going to this mysterious "somehands" ? [16:39] * robbiew is...and cjwatson [16:40] next thing you know they'll be adding jazzhands [16:41] followed by looknohands [16:41] heh [16:41] I assume I'm needed at somehands because I'm organising one of the allhands tracks [16:41] lol [16:41] cjwatson: no, it's because you get to live after the revolution [16:41] heh [16:42] unless somehands is some heaven's gate-like event, in which case that statement would be entirely wrong [16:42] somehands is just those management type topics that most others would be bored with...nothing special [16:43] was a way to make sure we don't have a bunch of management meetings during Allhands [16:43] [TOPIC] Good News/AOB [16:43] New Topic: Good News/AOB [16:44] * robbiew noticed Keybuk got 25sec *with* compiz [16:44] whoohoo! [16:44] robbiew: you're spying on me! :p [16:44] I made some progress on the aufs based upgrade branch, I will post something to ubuntu-devel about it [16:44] I would say that I think we've finally fixed the installer races, except that IIRC that was my good news last week too [16:44] heh [16:44] I note that we must be getting close to a release. My laptop, which runs the current release, has started behaving erratically. It always does this at the end of an Ubuntu release. [16:44] * mvo did a successful upgrade of intrepid->jaunty on a aufs overlayed system, so everything was back to intrepid after the neext reboot [16:45] ooh [16:45] hot [16:45] informal feedback this week is that Keybuk has sped up the boot to the point where it's faster to reboot a machine than to resume from hibernation [16:45] oops :) [16:45] slangasek, but I've had that for years :P [16:45] I've sped it up sufficiently that you stare at a blank screen and mouse cursor longer than you see usplash ;) [16:46] mvo: \o/ [16:46] Keybuk: out of curisoity, how much win was the protobuf stuff on the mini9? [16:47] mvo: about 3s, so a third of compiz's start time [16:47] cool! [16:47] evand: random question, and I'm sure you get this one a lot [16:47] evand: but I assume you have plans to fix the city locations in the u6y timezone map? [16:47] Keybuk: yes, made some progress on that recently, but more is needed. [16:48] London is currently sitting in the English channel. [16:48] oh, for me London is on an off-shore Oil Rig in the North Sea [16:48] lol [16:49] #endmeeting [16:49] Meeting finished at 11:49. [16:49] it did briefly occur that there's a wonderful Lost-related easter egg waiting to happen with that map... [16:49] * robbiew gives you back 10min...enjoy! :P [16:49] heh [16:49] and thanks [16:49] it's a map projection kind of issue. evand is busy committing stuff to ubiquity full of obscure floating-point arithmetic [16:49] thanks [16:49] :) [16:49] cjwatson: indeed, it looked like the new map was Mercator to me? [16:49] which is a bitch to project onto :p [16:50] Miller [16:50] Miller, I'm told [16:50] thanks all :) [16:50] evand, I will be curious to see if Helsinki has moved away from the radioactive coast of the Arctic ocean [16:50] lol [16:50] evand: it actually reminded me slightly of the obfuscated perl raytracer I wrote some years back ;-) [16:51] haha [16:51] The Miller cylindrical projection is a modified Mercator projection, proposed by Osborn Maitland Miller (1897-1979) in 1942. The parallels of latitude are scaled by a factor of 0.8, projected according to Mercator, and then the result is divided by 0.8 to retain scale along the equator. [16:51] eep [16:51] yarp [16:52] sounds like fun :P [16:53] I assume you're accounting for the variance between the WGS 84 reference ellipsoid used by the GPS systems and the ... [16:53] oh, of course! [16:54] * Keybuk had to learn all this stuff [16:54] my brain dribbled out of my ears [16:54] hahaha [16:54] but it turns out that knowing that the GPS system altitude is based on a fictional reference geoid and not on the ground comes in quite useful when flying ;) [16:55] (and map projections, knowing that if you fly in a straight line what shape line you draw over the map and stuff [16:55] and then knowing that flying in a straight line is never efficient, and instead you want to fly in a great circle, which may be a very funny shape on your map :p) [16:56] very cool. How much longer until you can fly the lot of us to UDS? [16:57] it's more a question of money than time at this point :-/ [17:00] * ScottK has (in ancient history) had to do great circle plotting of a trans-Atlantic voyage on paper charts before. [17:01] hello [17:01] hello everybody [17:01] * ogasawara_ waves [17:01] * cgregan waves [17:01] hello [17:01] Hi [17:01] hey [17:03] #startmeeting [17:03] Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is bdmurray. [17:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:03] The agenda for the meeting is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings and first up we have pedro_ [17:04] Last Thursday we celebrated the flashplugin-nonfree hug day https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090305 [17:04] bdmurray: you'll be chairing during the testing sprint? :) [17:05] cr3: yes, heno asked me to do this [17:05] we had a really good participation from the bugsquad again (they are rocking so hard) [17:05] bdmurray: thanks man! [17:05] we had some heroes bigal50, Joel Goguen (jgoguen), Martin Mai (MrKanister) and Charlie Kravetz (charlie-tca) [17:05] big kudos to them ;-) [17:06] and specially to MrKanister for helping out to set up everything [17:06] pedro_: why is it called a hug day rather than a bug day? [17:06] * pedro_ hugs MrKanister === fader_ is now known as fader [17:06] cr3: that's why ^ [17:06] * MrKanister huggs pedro back [17:06] cr3: triage a bug, win a hug ;-) [17:07] tomorrow we're having a samba hug day, we have been coordinating this with the server team [17:07] pedro_: dude, I so need to participate in those more! [17:07] pedro_: what's the wiki page for the samba hug day? [17:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090312 <- people already started to work on it [17:07] cr3: ^ [17:07] i know Joel is amazing [17:08] we're going to have people from the server team available to answers question regarding bugs on the #ubuntu-bugs channel [17:08] pedro_: did bugs w/ patches get added to the template? I stuck them in for Samba again [17:08] pedro_: I'll invite some people from montreal, they might be interested too [17:08] bdmurray: it's not added, i'll do that [17:09] cr3: awesome! [17:09] #action pedro to add patches table to bug day template [17:09] hrm [17:09] so that's it, we'll be waiting for you to start squashing samba bugs tomorrow ;-) [17:09] * cr3 hugs pedro_ in advance [17:10] talking about hug days heroes, hello charlie-tca [17:10] :-) [17:10] hello, sorry I am a little late [17:10] This week we had a couple of new bug control members and one returning one. [17:11] Julien Lavergne, gilir on freenode, was approved as a member and is interested in awn, conduit, ogmrip among other packages [17:12] István Nyitrai, sianis on freenode, was also approved as a member and is interested in l10n bugs, misspellings, typos and has been working on gdebi a fair bit [17:12] yay for a conduit contributor :-) [17:13] Third TJ, IntuitiveNipple on freenode, was a former member of Bug Control who has returned! He has an interest in kernel bugs and received lots of positive comments from the kernel team. [17:14] There is one last application, andres mujica's, still pending if any bug control members want to comment. [17:14] That covers all that's going on in bug control! [17:16] Is there somebody who can speak about the testing day? [17:16] Yo [17:17] Testing day was mostly me and charlie-tca this week we found a few issues that have kinda been resolved for apha6 due to it [17:18] ara_: is running the one on Monday which iirc is based on notify-osd and others [17:19] yes, focus will be notify-osd and checkbox [17:19] ara_: yay! [17:20] Okay, that sounds great! [17:21] Moving on - last week or the week before we talked about a bug weighting / gravity as a way to find 'important' bugs in a large collection of bugs. [17:21] I've taken a stab at this using a calculation like so http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/129811/ [17:22] Different points are assigned to the tags that a bug report has where lots of points are given for regressions or apport reported bugs [17:22] Then points are also given for duplicates, subscribers and users affected which we'd talked about. [17:23] I'd also like to add in some points if the bug report is private as that is one that should be looked at soon and hopefully made public. [17:23] bdmurray: should regression-update and regression-proposed get a high weighting? [17:23] as they're supposed to be regressions that were introduced by a (proposed) update. [17:24] sbeattie: right, and probably higher than regression-release? [17:24] that's my intuition. [17:24] so something like 250 and 300 for proposed then updates [17:25] okay, noted [17:25] Its this kind of feedback I'm looking for [17:25] I've run some reports using this at http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/tmp/gravity/ [17:26] sorting by the gravity you can identify which bug reports probably should be looked at first [17:26] bdmurray: hrm, should workflow bugs get excluded? [17:27] e.g. Bug 340606 shows up on the no-package report. [17:27] Launchpad bug 340606 in ubuntu "FeatureFreezeException: S.M.I.L.E" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340606 [17:27] pedro_: if you could look at rhythmbox / totem and let me know if the gravity number is useful or indicative of something useful that would be helpful [17:28] bdmurray: alright [17:28] sbeattie: and maybe the needs-packaging ones too [17:28] mmm, yeah. [17:29] I'm really curious if people would find these reports useful or not [17:29] bdmurray: might be useful to put the little lock marker or some other indicator for private bugs. [17:30] So please test them out and let me know! [17:31] ok will do it [17:31] In other news, compiz now has an apport hook! [17:31] bdmurray: thanks for working on that, I think they could be useful. [17:31] nice! [17:32] It gathers hardware info, xorg log file and xsession errors [17:32] The same things asked for at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingCompiz [17:33] Maybe we should add compiz to the hug day targets list for after the release [17:34] that's a good idea, I'll add that to the Planning page [17:34] bdmurray: do you have a list of packages that it would be a priority to get apport hooks added to? [17:35] sbeattie: not really, if we were to make a list I think it should take into consideration bug volume and Debugging page existence [17:37] sbeattie: looking around I think we are doing pretty well now [17:37] gnome-power-manager might benefit from one though [17:38] oh and firefox [17:39] so those 2 seem like a priority [17:39] for anyone who's interested, gnome-power-manager appears to include a gnome-power-bugreport.sh script that might be useful for ideas for inclusion in an apport hook [17:41] speaking of power management, checkbox should also come with a hibernate/suspend test script in the next release which should land before beta [17:41] I that back about firefox - there is one [17:42] Firefox could use a package bug guideline [17:43] Okay, that's all that was on the agenda. Is there any other business? [17:44] all good here [17:44] noup [17:45] Okay, thanks everyone! [17:45] #endmeeting [17:45] Meeting finished at 12:45. [17:45] win 40 [17:45] thanks you [17:48] ta === JanC_ is now known as JanC === mc44_ is now known as mc44 === nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === johnc4511 is now known as johnc4510-laptop