[11:01] <ogra> moop
[11:59] <persia> RIght.  Time for the Mobile Meeting.
[12:00]  * NCommander waves
[12:00] <persia> #startmeeting
[12:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is persia.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:00] <persia> Agenda is [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090319
[12:01] <persia> [topic] persia to investigate 338148
[12:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia to investigate 338148
[12:01] <persia> At the last meeting we thought this was a simple merge.  It's more than that.  I've been looking at it, but don't have all the bits in my head yet.  I'll need it carried over.
[12:01] <persia> [topic] NCommander to post dmesg for jacx10 to 280669
[12:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to post dmesg for jacx10 to 280669
[12:02] <NCommander> please carry over, been working all week on Redboot
[12:02] <persia> [topic] lool to spec ec2-package-builder for jaunty+1
[12:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool to spec ec2-package-builder for jaunty+1
[12:03] <persia> lool ?
[12:04] <lool> No progress
[12:04] <persia> [topic] ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope
[12:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope
[12:05] <ogra> carry over
[12:05] <ogra> as well as the next one
[12:05] <ogra> babbage kernel issues kept me busy
[12:05] <persia> Right.  That takes us to roadmap.
[12:05] <persia> [topic] offline-installer
[12:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer
[12:05] <ogra> same status
[12:06] <persia> [topic] mobile-setup-wizard
[12:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-setup-wizard
[12:06] <persia> no progress
[12:06] <persia> [topic] arm-library-optimisation
[12:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-library-optimisation
[12:07] <persia> lool, ?
[12:08] <lool> Progress but need to file FFE and blocked by betafreeze now
[12:09] <lool> move to next item please
[12:09] <persia> [topic] pouslbo-packaging
[12:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  pouslbo-packaging
[12:09] <persia> I still need to document stuff: the plan is changing a bit, but it's still not working well enough to use properly.
[12:10] <ogra> WTF
[12:10] <persia> ogra, ?
[12:10] <ogra> why is offline-installer a drupal project now ?
[12:10] <persia> Because of a launchpad bug.
[12:10] <ogra> ah
[12:10] <persia> Just ignore that for the moment :)
[12:10] <persia> Moving on...
[12:10] <ogra> hard if you want to look at your specs :P
[12:11] <persia> Yes.  I expect we can get manual resolution of the outstanding ones in the next couple weeks.
[12:11] <persia> [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling
[12:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling
[12:11] <ogra> no progress
[12:11] <persia> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
[12:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
[12:11] <NCommander> No progress
[12:11] <persia> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
[12:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
[12:12] <lool> NCommander: You're looking into kexec soon though
[12:12] <ogra> slow progress, started the automatic image builder script for the babbage image today
[12:12] <ogra> but currently blocked on broken kernel
[12:12] <NCommander> lool, true.
[12:13] <persia> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
[12:13] <lool> nothing new to reprot
[12:13] <persia> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:13] <persia> status unchanged
[12:13] <persia> [topic] bug #299847
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #299847
[12:13] <NCommander> No progress
[12:14] <persia> [topic] bug #328167
[12:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #328167
[12:14] <ogra> i need to rebuild from source onm upstream request
[12:14] <ogra> but need my babbage for other stuff atm
[12:14] <persia> ogra, Do you want an action item for that, or is roadmap sufficient?
[12:15] <ogra> will do that once i have my hands off the image builder scripts
[12:15] <ogra> sure, make it an action item
[12:15] <persia> [action] ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot 328167
[12:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot 328167
[12:15] <persia> [topic] bug #280669
[12:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #280669
[12:16] <NCommander> No progress.
[12:16] <persia> [topic] bug #336770
[12:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #336770
[12:16]  * persia removes it from the roadmap
[12:16] <ogra> reload your wikipage :P
[12:16] <lool> Let's drop that one?
[12:17] <ogra> its gone already
[12:17] <persia> ogra, I reload before nearly every topic, and I skipped once, and you got me :)
[12:17]  * ogra removed it at the start of the meeting
[12:17] <persia> [topic] bug #338148
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #338148
[12:17] <ogra> fix your proxy :)
[12:17] <persia> I've already got a carried over action item on it: needs more merge effort (different versions).
[12:17] <persia> [topic] NSLU2 enablement
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  NSLU2 enablement
[12:18] <ogra> works :)
[12:18] <ogra> could surely need some extra love
[12:18] <ogra> like tasksel adjustments and the like
[12:18] <persia> Do you still want a roadmap item?  Will more discussion or tracking help?
[12:18] <ogra> but really not in scope atm
[12:18] <ogra> well, if we see regressions i could report on it
[12:18] <persia> OK. Let's leave it then.
[12:19] <persia> [topic] Babbage enablement
[12:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Babbage enablement
[12:19] <ogra> so leave it there, i can easily nod it off every meeting
[12:19] <NCommander> RedBoot for Babbage board has been packaged
[12:19] <ogra> amit is working on the merged kernel configs
[12:19] <NCommander> Its sitting in universe, pending MIRs
[12:19] <ogra> redboot and friends are packaged by NCommander
[12:19] <NCommander> debian-installer-imx51-netboot has just been successfully started.
[12:19] <ogra> NCommander, hey, my duty !
[12:19] <NCommander> ogra, the installer or the news?
[12:20] <ogra> (leave the reporting to me and just add stuff i miss)
[12:20]  * NCommander goes mute
[12:20] <ogra> else it gets to confusing
[12:20] <ogra> lool is working on the fconfig scripts
[12:20] <lool> we miss installer, either d-i or ubiquity, and that implies a good scenario for install still; some candidates have been discussed
[12:20] <ogra> i am working on the autobuild scripts atm
[12:20] <lool> Depending on what works and on the final scenario, we need differing bits
[12:21] <ogra> we're currently hit hard by https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/344370/
[12:21] <lool> flash-kernel integration is likely to be needed if we can't get a kexec solution to work
[12:21] <persia> What support do we need in d-i outside the kernel?
[12:21] <persia> Is it just kernel selection, or is something else broken?
[12:21] <ogra> persia, a bootloader udeb or some such
[12:21] <lool> persia: We don't build any netboot image for babbage ATM, and I would think a SD image would be useful
[12:21] <NCommander> ogra, we have a redboot udeb
[12:21] <lool> We do?
[12:21] <lool> Cool
[12:22] <NCommander> Yeah, I figured you might want it so I saved some work and did it all in one go
[12:22] <ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/344955 sopped me form working forward the last three days
[12:22] <NCommander> (much to the confusion of the poor REVU reviewers)
[12:22] <ogra> but its fixed now
[12:22] <persia> OK, so the redboot udeb can give us an alternate image, and we can make an SD live image.
[12:22] <lool> Then you also need some d-i logic for the redboot udeb, currently it only provides files
[12:22] <ogra> right, we need lools scripts
[12:22] <lool> IOW we need a story for the d-i install as well
[12:22] <NCommander> lool, it needs to be in the udeb build-deps, and then have the arch-image target glue all together, and get out a bin blob like NSLU2
[12:23] <ogra> thats silly
[12:23] <ogra> lets just do a real alternate image
[12:23] <ogra> instead of netboot
[12:23] <lool> ogra: netboot is trivial and is useful for people using various scripts
[12:23] <NCommander> ogra, sure, I can add a cdrom target easily, netboot images are easy to do
[12:23] <lool> We don't need it, but it would be the first thing I'd add
[12:23] <NCommander> I already booted the imx51 netboot initrd
[12:23] <persia> If we have alternate, netboot isn't significantly more work.
[12:23]  * NCommander hasn't run the install yet.
[12:24] <ogra> persia, other way round
[12:24] <persia> ogra, either way :)
[12:24] <ogra> netboot is easier but not a good fallback if we fail live
[12:24] <persia> Right.
[12:24] <ogra> so i'D like to se the focus on alternate
[12:24] <persia> I don't think live is an issue, as long as we pick the right kernel.
[12:24] <NCommander> ogra, netboot is three lines of code to get a initrd
[12:24] <ogra> in cae we hit issues with ubiquity we didnt foresee
[12:24] <persia> In many ways, live is easier to do than alternate, because not as much of d-i is involved.
[12:25] <ogra> but live install isnt yet
[12:25] <lool> Let's not debate netboot, it's not the target and will be done if anybody touches d-i because it's trivial
[12:25] <ogra> its easy up to the package install
[12:25] <ogra> but the final step to make the install bootable only exists theoretically yet
[12:25] <ogra> and we might hit issues we didnt expect
[12:26] <lool> My main concerns for *either* install is a) getting partitioning right and b) installing redboot and flash-kernel properly if needs be
[12:26] <ogra> so i'd like an alternate image as a safety net
[12:26] <persia> OK, so essentially we need the glue that installs the bootloader somewhere (which isn't grub)?
[12:26] <ogra> our target is to have a milestoneable image
[12:26] <persia> Right.
[12:26] <ogra> which netboot isnt (and cant be)
[12:27] <lool> ogra: Isn't that what we released for A5/verstaile?
[12:27] <ogra> so lets leave netboot as a nice to have
[12:27] <ogra> lool, netboot ?
[12:27] <ogra> ye
[12:27] <ogra> s
[12:27] <lool> yes
[12:27] <lool> It's at least something
[12:27] <ogra> but was considered not sufficientr
[12:27] <ogra> management request was a fixed milestoneable image
[12:27] <ogra> no netboot
[12:28] <lool> for release
[12:28] <ogra> which is why i'd like to see NCommander working on a,ternate instead of netboot
[12:28] <ogra> so we have a fallback in case ubiquity fails
[12:28] <NCommander> ogra, netboot already exists
[12:28] <lool> let's forget netboot
[12:28] <ogra> right
[12:28] <NCommander> ogra, just so I can fix the partitioning and flash-kernel, and then just drop the cdrom bits in.
[12:28]  * NCommander doesn't want to write a 700MB image just to test the installer.
[12:29] <ogra> but thats what we're supposed to have
[12:29] <NCommander> ogra, let me rephrase
[12:29] <NCommander> While we're developing the installer variant
[12:29] <persia> NCommander, The trick is to just replace bits in the 700MB image with each iteration of installer work.  I'd be happy to help you with workflow.
[12:29] <ogra> you will need significant cjhanges tro the cdrom detection code
[12:29] <ogra> to work from SD
[12:29] <NCommander> ogra, we do?
[12:29] <NCommander> Oh
[12:29] <NCommander> No, we can use the cf variant
[12:29] <ogra> so please test with a real d-i image
[12:30] <ogra> if you can do that, thats fine, but please test it
[12:30] <NCommander> ogra, to build alternates, I need access to cdimage.u.c
[12:30] <NCommander> I can't build a full image on 127.0.0.1 with just the d-i package unless I'm mistaken.
[12:30] <persia> NCommander, No you don't.  After the meeting, let's chat about image construction.
[12:30] <NCommander> fair enough.
[12:30] <persia> [action] persia & NCommander to review workflow for testing alternate images.
[12:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia & NCommander to review workflow for testing alternate images.
[12:31] <persia> Anything else for Babbage enablement?
[12:31] <ogra> NCommander, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily/current/
[12:31] <ogra> there are alternate images
[12:31] <ogra> use and modify them
[12:31] <persia> OK.  Moving on then.
[12:31] <persia> [topic] ARM benchmarking
[12:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM benchmarking
[12:32] <lool> I think no progress
[12:32] <ogra> we anyway only need it as a base for KK
[12:32] <persia> NCommander, ?
[12:32] <ogra> so its not milestone critical or something
[12:32] <NCommander> sorry, no progress (no ARMv7 build)
[12:32] <persia> OK.  That concludes roadmap review.
[12:32] <ogra> just has to be there at release
[12:33] <persia> We've one topic on the agenda that's been pending
[12:33] <persia> [topic] Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
[12:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
[12:33] <ogra> but still not all team members
[12:33] <persia> No, but those absent fall into the range that's inconvenient.
[12:33] <ogra> same prob as last week
[12:33] <GrueMaster> I thoughtthe idea was to wait for DST world wide.
[12:33] <GrueMaster> Then shift.
[12:33] <lool> I don't want to discuss this without david anyway
[12:33] <persia> Given that the previous discussions were talking about times that would be inconvenient for all of those present, let's find the least inconvenient one.
[12:34] <persia> OK.  We'll carry it over another week then, and the next meeting will be at this time.
[12:34] <persia> Anyone have any last minute additions to the agenda?
[12:34] <GrueMaster> Action Reports are due NOW.
[12:35] <NCommander> GrueMaster, you got mine.
[12:35] <lool> GrueMaster: you're good!
[12:35] <ogra> heh
[12:35] <lool> Ok, /me lunch &
[12:36] <persia> OK.  Meeting adjouned then.  Thanks everyone.
[12:36] <persia> #endmeeting
[12:36] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:36.
[13:54]  * persia peers about
[14:01] <persia> So, who's here for the Java meeting?
[14:01] <ttx> \o/
[14:01] <persia> Right.  We need a bigger team :)
[14:02] <persia> Nothing new on the agenda.
[14:02] <persia> robilad isn't here
[14:02] <ttx> come on everyone, java is fun ! Or not.
[14:02] <persia> slytherin isn't here
[14:02] <persia> I didn't file the SRU for sun-java5 yet, so we can't drop it.
[14:02] <persia> ttx, Any progress on Java-Contents?
[14:02] <ttx> yes, !
[14:03] <ttx> So I finished the script and ran it through intrepid
[14:03] <ttx> documented here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/JavaContents
[14:03] <ttx> I will add a few examples to the docs, run it through current Jaunty
[14:04] <ttx> but I already accpt feedback / bugs in the script
[14:04] <persia> Cool!
[14:04] <persia> Could you add a link to that on the Roadmap?
[14:04] <ttx> I might create a project in LP rather than just a +junk branch
[14:04] <ttx> so that bugs can be filed against it
[14:05] <ttx> sure, i'll link it from the roadmap and the knowledge base pages
[14:05] <ttx> it's interesting to see unneeded code duplication as well
[14:05] <ttx> roxen4 in the example
[14:06] <ttx> anyway, that's a good tool for every Java packager
[14:06] <ttx> I know I've been missing something like that a lot during this cycle.
[14:07] <persia> It's also a good tool to use to clean up.
[14:07] <persia> We likely don't need all of that: I'd hope we could drop it from both roxen and glassfish in your example.
[14:07] <persia> I'm sure we have *many* more.
[14:07] <ttx> oh yes, I picked javax.servlet by accident.
[14:09] <ttx> ludovicc: welcome, we were talking about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/JavaContents
[14:09] <persia> Dunno if it needs an LP project.  Might make sense to add it to one of the developer tools packages.
[14:09] <persia> Something like ubuntu-dev-tools or javahelper.
[14:09] <ttx> ludovicc: a mapping file that shows package/jar/classes contents in a release
[14:09] <ttx> persia: i'll try to find a good match
[14:10] <ttx> there isn't much point in regenerating it yourself though. takes time
[14:10] <ttx> there are ~800 packages containing jar files.
[14:11] <ttx> and more coming up :)
[14:11] <ludovicc> i'm not familiar with JavaContents, but it looks like it may duplicate the information you can get from Maven descriptors
[14:11] <persia> I wonder if it's worth asking the archive-admins to add it to the scripts they run against the archive on a scheduled basis, and just referencing it.
[14:12] <persia> ludovicc, It would, except that it also covers stuff that isn't maven.
[14:12] <ttx> persia: once it's debugged, might make sense, yes
[14:12] <ludovicc> lots of stuff is not Maven, yet even those have POM descriptors describing them
[14:13] <ludovicc> available on online Maven repositories
[14:13] <persia> ludovicc, Ah.  I see.  The difference is that JavaContents provides a report on the contents of the Ubuntu archive, so we can detect duplication, etc.
[14:13] <persia> We could probably run the same thing against Debian.
[14:14] <persia> Until all the packages have been updated to include POM descriptors, it's a different view.
[14:14] <ludovicc> ok, so that's more like a tool for keeping the repository clean
[14:14] <persia> In fact, one could probably use JavaContents to help identify what should be added for POM descriptors.
[14:15] <persia> Well, and finding out on which package one needs to depend or build-depend when packaging.
[14:15] <ttx> ludovicc: it also helps in determining in which debian package is defined a given class
[14:15] <ttx> for example I've been looking for javax.faces
[14:15] <ttx> difficult to be sure it's not already provided *somewhere*
[14:15] <ludovicc> that would be good yes, but there are alternative solutions as always
[14:15] <ttx> with javaContents, I have the answer
[14:16] <ludovicc> the nice thing with this idea is snice you work with classes and packages, not with jars, it can work out very nicely with OSGi
[14:16] <ludovicc> so why not?
[14:17] <ttx> that's all on that subject
[14:18] <persia> OK.  Next up: attracting more Java packagers
[14:18] <ludovicc> OSGi uses package names to locate services and organize classloaders
[14:18] <ttx> persia: so I've been looking at missing libraries... apparently Maven in debian is now ready (ludovicc could confirm) so all basic libs/plugins have been added
[14:19] <ludovicc> many of them, but it's far from complete
[14:20] <ttx> ludovicc: do you have a list somewhere in debian of missing pieces ?
[14:20] <ludovicc> only 5 or 6 plugins have been packaged, there are dozens yet to package
[14:20] <ttx> ludovicc: the idea is that if we have some Java packagers wanabees we want to point them to a list of things they can do
[14:20] <ttx> (and contribute back to Debian)
[14:21] <ttx> I also wanted to run a few Java lib packaging classes, where that list could be used
[14:21] <ludovicc> no list, but it's easy to get it: compare the list of plugins on the Maven site with what's in the pkg-java svn repo
[14:21] <ttx> so you'd say what's missing are maven plugins ?
[14:21] <persia> ludovicc, Do you think it would make sense to file a collection of RFPs for those, and for us to put out a call for Java packagers to tackle them?
[14:22] <ludovicc> that would be a good idea, but before I would like to be clear with Torsten Werner about the strategy for packaging Maven and its POMs
[14:23] <ludovicc> it's almost there though, so we can get started on that
[14:23] <ludovicc> I mean the RFP
[14:23] <ttx> ludovicc: ok
[14:24] <persia> ludovicc, That sounds reasonable.  Would you be able to get back to us next week about the strategy?
[14:24] <persia> I'm sure ttx or I could find the time to file lots of bugs, and then put out the call.
[14:24] <ludovicc> hopefully yes, if I can get Torsten to work with me, he seems busy now
[14:25] <ludovicc> but anyway I have already a lot working on my side, if you could try it and give me your opinion, that would help
[14:26] <ludovicc> check https://code.launchpad.net/uj and https://code.launchpad.net/maven-packaging-support
[14:26] <ludovicc> lp:~ludovicc/maven-packaging-support/maven-repo-helper contains a tool for including Maven POMs into normal Java library packages
[14:27] <ttx> ludovicc: I seem to be confused on how complementary the work of Torsten and yours are
[14:27] <ludovicc> Torsten is working on a pure Maven solution, where you use Maven to build your package
[14:28] <ludovicc> I'm trying to complement this to provide Maven POMs for those many libraries not built with Maven
[14:29] <ludovicc> those POMs will then be placed in /usr/share/maven-repo, and used when building Maven projects dependent on external libraries
[14:29] <ttx> ok
[14:30] <ludovicc> so lp:~ludovicc/uj/junit and lp:~ludovicc/uj/modello are an exemple of those Maven-enabled libraries
[14:30] <ludovicc> I hope to get agreement from Torsten soon, and merge this work to Debian
[14:31] <ttx> that would be great.
[14:31] <ttx> ludovicc: do you plan to come at UDS ?
[14:32] <ludovicc> now I've got time, but no money...
[14:32] <ttx> that's why sponsoring is (was) for :)
[14:32] <ludovicc> missed it...
[14:35] <ttx> persia: anything else ?
[14:37] <persia> I don't have anything.
[14:37] <persia> ludovicc, ?
[14:37] <ludovicc> I started some time ago a guide for packaging Java libraries
[14:37] <ludovicc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/KnowledgeBase/Packaging
[14:38] <ttx> ludovicc: I wrote one too.
[14:38] <ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/LibraryPackaging
[14:38] <ludovicc> yeah, I saw it
[14:38] <ttx> mine is more Debian-packager oriented
[14:39] <ttx> "here are the differences in Java"
[14:39] <ttx> yours is more step-by-step
[14:40] <ludovicc> mine is more Java oriented (for the guy who know naught about Debian), but still very incomplete
[14:40] <ludovicc> it's based on the Python packaging guide, I'm sure we can do as well for Java
[14:41] <persia> Those look nicely complimentary.
[14:41] <persia> ludovicc, Do you need help, or just more time?
[14:42] <ludovicc> I need more time, but if you want to help, feel free to edit.
[14:44] <persia> heh :)
[14:44] <persia> OK.  Anyone have anything else?
[14:44] <ludovicc> no
[14:44] <ttx> no
[14:47] <ludovicc> see u folks
[14:48] <ttx> bye ludovicc, thanks for coming !