[05:33] <Vantrax> anyone know if submissions are still active for artwork?
[05:38] <o0Chris0o> Vantrax:I think they are working on the wallpaper and some icons
[05:38] <o0Chris0o> but other than that I'm not entirely sure
[05:38] <Vantrax> Yeah i have a wallpaper to add into the mix, just need to finish it up tonight
[05:41] <o0Chris0o> cool
[05:47] <BHSPitMonkey> the artwork freeze already happened, didn't it
[05:48] <o0Chris0o> I'm not sure
[05:48] <BHSPitMonkey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule -- Indeed
[09:08] <thorwil> good morning!
[10:56]  * thorwil wonders if he should try http://www.explosm.net/comics/1601/ now and then
[11:36]  * _MMA_ waves
[12:12] <kwwii> were is Cimi when you need him
[12:12] <ziroday> somewhere other then where you need him?
[12:15] <kwwii> no doubt
[12:16] <kwwii> bug #345410 seems like his problem :)
[12:16] <kwwii> I added the change he suggests and it doesn't do anything, it seems
[12:17]  * _MMA_ is also following that bug.
[12:17] <ziroday> kwwii: oh I noticed that too, thought it was a new design decision
[12:18]  * _MMA_ did as well.
[12:18] <zniavre> it is not a feature ?
[12:18] <_MMA_> Cimi /did/ push out a .91 release. Maybe it's fixed.
[12:19] <ziroday> mind you the clearlooks one does look alot better then the murrine one
[12:19] <zniavre> that's true
[12:21] <_MMA_> If kwwii or someone doesn't like the look if it's part of murrine one can always have it use Clearlooks there.
[12:22] <kwwii> it was cimi's design
[12:22] <kwwii> but I don't want it :p
[12:24] <_MMA_> Just like getting rid of the stripe on the tabs! I loved that. Now I use Clearlooks for that part. If this isn't a bug, maybe I'll use Clearlooks for the button highlight as well.
[12:29] <kwwii> it kinda ticks me off, I asked cimi what he changed and he said it wouldn't look any different
[12:30] <_MMA_> So *maybe* this is just a bug.
[12:31] <_MMA_> Because really, this looks like a step back.
[12:34] <kwwii> yeah well, wait and see what he says
[12:35] <_MMA_> hahaha
[12:36] <_MMA_> kwwii: You know what he'll say. (if this is a design choice)
[13:28] <lucazade> Cimi asked for a focus mockup for ages, nobody provided a good one.. this one is imho a good one
[13:32] <dashua> lucazade: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11469/screenshot_023_35CHzk.png
[13:32] <lucazade> same stuff for me, is it a real change?
[13:32] <dashua> He patched focus, I've been testing it with no issues.
[13:33] <dashua> I don't think he committed it yet or if it was ready.
[13:33] <lucazade> ok tnx for info
[13:34] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11470/screenshot_024_nlc2kR.png
[13:35] <dashua> See the focus ring is like clearlooks
[13:35] <dashua> This is where the mix hacks will mess up scale as the focus with be extremely light
[13:36] <lucazade> yep.. is not a great change .. i've never thought it was a bug the present focus
[13:36] <dashua> Better using the shade option, like Cimi suggested.
[13:37] <dashua> The dotted line was gone, the version reported in this bug, and now this one in testing.
[13:38] <lucazade> arg me don't like this one.. btw not a problem neither a bug
[13:39] <lucazade> just tastes
[13:40] <_MMA_> I don't see how *anyone* would think that that line we have now looks better than: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11469/screenshot_023_35CHzk.png
[13:40] <_MMA_> The line looks totally awkward.
[13:40] <lucazade> mma for you
[13:40] <lucazade> not for *me*
[13:41] <_MMA_> The pic above communicates focus *much* better.
[13:41] <lucazade> *much*
[13:41] <lucazade> i don't think so
[13:42] <lucazade> and also stripes on tabs were wrong btw
[13:43] <_MMA_> Why?
[13:43] <_MMA_> Give me a technical reason.
[13:43] <lucazade> because worked ok only with blue
[13:43] <lucazade> ok?
[13:43] <_MMA_> An educated design opinion.
[13:44] <lucazade> :)
[13:44]  * _MMA_ waits.
[13:44] <_MMA_> In the end, what urks me, is that coders that *think* they have a eye for art don't listen to real designers. It's an issue across free software.
[13:45] <kwwii> re
[13:45]  * thorwil spots a sign of troy
[13:45] <lucazade> i told you stripes are too depending on selected bg color
[13:46] <lucazade> if you make a theme with clearlooks palette is ok, otherwise is a pain
[13:46] <_MMA_> thorwil: Somewhat guilty. Though, it's something I already knew.
[13:46] <kwwii> we used the line on the tabs with orange and people loved it
[13:46] <kwwii> the current keyboard selection looks funky though
[13:47] <kwwii> just a line at the bottom effects the design very strongly
[13:47] <_MMA_> lucazade: You never said to me "too depending on selected bg color". It really doesn't matter anyway.
[13:47] <lucazade> i told you, *maybe* my english is pour
[13:48] <lucazade> cimi told you as well some months ago
[13:49] <_MMA_> Looking back through logs, I don't see him mentioning it to me.
[13:50] <_MMA_> In the end, this change looks terrible because it's obscure and looks out of place.
[13:50] <kwwii> I specificaly asked if this would change the look of the theme and cimi said no
[13:50] <kwwii> the problems occur when his opinion of a change is not my opinion of a change
[13:50] <kwwii> :p
[13:51] <lucazade> :D lol
[13:51] <_MMA_> And, I could get 100 other people to say the same thing and Cimi wouldn't change. *Everyone* could tell him it looks bad and he wouldn't. Thats the problem around here.
[13:51] <lucazade> today is Cimi dbay, maybe he will listen to all of us
[13:51] <_MMA_> Cimi has the attitude "It's my show and I'll do what I want".
[13:52] <lucazade> i thought the same for a period, after known him i changed my opinion
[13:53] <_MMA_> I've worked with him long enough as well. I haven't seen what you have.
[13:53] <_MMA_> And mind you, I've told him as much.
[13:53] <_MMA_> I wish he were here now.
[13:54] <lucazade> i wish too, i don't want to speak for him
[13:54] <_MMA_> This says focus: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11469/screenshot_023_35CHzk.png when compared to what's there now. When given the choice, I'd bet my house the majority of people would choose the pic above.
[13:55] <lucazade> i don't care about people thinks is correct
[13:55] <_MMA_> hahahahhaha
[13:55] <lucazade> ;)ù
[13:56] <lucazade> ... makin a coffee..
[13:56] <_MMA_> There's a difference between sticking to a design direction/choice and just being an ass.
[13:58] <_MMA_> "*Everyone* tells me I'm wrong but I don't care." is a common attitude around freesoftware "art" (and I use that loosly) and it's going to kill us.
[14:00] <lucazade> if i follow what people say, i would lose my house if bet
[14:01] <thorwil> pointless discussion is pointless
[14:01] <_MMA_> thorwil: Unfortunately.
[14:01] <lucazade> agree
[14:01] <_MMA_> ?
[14:01] <_MMA_> nevermind
[14:02] <thorwil> funny enough, i just changed the countdown banners again. because i have been told to ;p
[14:02] <_MMA_> thorwil: But this is also the problem. People that know, just give up. I'm tired of that.
[14:04] <thorwil> _MMA_: either very few people can be champions of a change, or it wont happen, i think
[14:04] <lucazade> mma you 'll never reach what people wants, 100%, also listening only to their opinions, because after some days they will change opinions and they will not care about your work
[14:05] <thorwil> lucazade: you are missing _MMA_ point entirely
[14:05] <_MMA_> lucazade: There's a difference that you're *totally* missing..
[14:05] <lucazade> like
[14:05] <_MMA_> Ha. Beat me to it. :P
[14:05] <lucazade> tell me which
[14:06] <_MMA_> lucazade: There's a difference between trying to please everyone and listening to people who have solid design knowledge.
[14:06] <thorwil> lucazade: there's a huge difference between asking people about everything and trying to let them drive the design and just checking design decisons now and then, asking people if what you want to express is what they see in the design
[14:06] <thorwil> also that
[14:07] <thorwil> ask gourmets, not fast-food fans ;)
[14:08] <lucazade> murrine is a project of a guy, not of a community
[14:08] <_MMA_> lucazade: *Really*? :) That's the stance you're going to take?
[14:09] <_MMA_> Really, just stop trying to defend Cimi. ;)
[14:09] <_MMA_> I'm speaking generally anyway.
[14:09] <lucazade> i think he asked help lots of time
[14:09] <_MMA_> Murrine is just 1 example.
[14:09] <lucazade> but at the end he did the whole alone
[14:10] <_MMA_> lucazade: And he got examples.
[14:10] <_MMA_> Really. Just stop. ;)
[14:10] <lucazade> ok
[14:12] <_MMA_> Point is, if people who code and people who design don't work together the GNOME desktop will continue to look stuck in the 90's.
[14:13] <_MMA_> And the "I code it so I don't have to listen to you." attitude keeps people with a clue (design knowledge) away.
[14:13] <lucazade> i agree with you.. but we cannot says Cimi do whatever he wants
[14:14] <_MMA_> lucazade: Like I said, this is a general opinion about the thinking of most free software "designers" I've observed over the years.
[14:15] <_MMA_> *Not* at all specific to Cimi.
[14:15] <lucazade> ok mma, now it's clear for me
[14:15] <lucazade> i'd speak my nativa language here
[14:16] <_MMA_> It's the 3rd time I've said it. Maybe it just took that many times for you to get it. ;)
[14:17] <lucazade> mma says Cimi has the attitude "It's my show and I'll do what I want".
[14:17] <kwwii> he does tend to talk like that
[14:17] <kwwii> I assumed he had really learned how to speak english in chat
[14:17] <_MMA_> lucazade: Sure. But we moved on from talking specifically about Cimi. :)
[14:18] <thorwil> kwwii: there is another way? 8-D
[14:18] <_MMA_> :P
[14:18] <kwwii> q: "hey what do you think about this idea?" a: "are you totally fucking stupid?"
[14:18] <lucazade> for me the discussion is closed.. no prb at all
[14:18] <kwwii> yeah, I really just need to talk to cimi directly
[14:19] <thorwil> kwwii: a: "it's ugly"
[14:19] <_MMA_> Ok. He responded to the bug. "Oh LOL! That's the focus hint, it will change in the future, maybe a 0.90.3 release"
[14:19] <lucazade> kwwii: yep
[14:19] <_MMA_> thorwil: hahahahhahahaha :)
[14:20]  * _MMA_ wonders how many more bugs will pop up about this...
[14:20] <kwwii> oh boy
[14:22] <_MMA_> Once the release is public, I'm sure people will think it's some graphical glitch/error. I know I did at 1st.
[14:24] <kwwii> yepp
[14:24] <kwwii> it simply looks messed up
[14:24] <kwwii> the QA team poked me about this because so many people have complained
[14:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: And I think it will be because of things like the Totem slider example. Though, it's still awkward on the buttons.
[14:26] <kwwii> it is awkward everywhere
[14:29] <dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11474/screenshot_029_38G1x7.png
[14:29] <dashua> _MMA_: Totem slider with patched murrine, much better IMO
[14:31] <_MMA_> Yes
[14:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: To answer your question, use Clearlooks in the gtkrc for the focus items.
[14:34]  * thorwil hopes for a jaunty with a no memory eating compiz
[14:34] <lucazade> http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5132/schermata.png
[14:37] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, that might be the only way around it
[14:37] <kwwii> suckage
[14:38] <_MMA_> kwwii: Im gonna do it for Studio.
[14:38] <dashua> You can patch the engine ;), which will most likely be 0.90.3
[14:39] <dashua> lucazade: I am fond of the focus hint currently testing.  That is better than the old dotted line, but not nearly as good as the patched version.
[14:39] <dashua> Matter of opinion, I guess?
[14:39] <lucazade> absolutely
[14:41] <kwwii> I kinda liked the idea of actually shipping a released murrine for once
[14:41] <dashua> Hopefully, he'll commit it.  I see no regressions so far and have been using it for a few days.
[14:41] <dashua> Or at least make it configurable, if possible.
[14:42] <kwwii> yeah, at least that
[14:44] <ryancr> from a random guy who just reads the artwork irc logs I have to say that the focus with just the single underline its a bit 'odd', it doesn't really grab my attention enough to say that it is the focused element
[14:56] <lucazade> ryancr, let me joke: or a single is so 'odd' (as said before) that will grab your attention?! on sliders i can agree looks strange, on the buttons and the other widgets is cool
[14:58] <ryancr> lucazade, maybe, I was just looking at the last link that you posted that showed the focus on the slider
[15:00] <_MMA_> lucazade: /Sometimes/ "cool" just isn't a good enough reason. I only tend to use it when things come down to personal pref. All things being equal.
[15:01] <lucazade> you'll always have to find a balance in things
[15:01] <lucazade> this focus seems balanced to me
[15:01] <lucazade> nothing more
[15:01] <lucazade> http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7012/schermata1i.png
[15:04] <ryancr> I have to say, I just don't think I am a fan of the single underline focus. But I guess that is just the problem with developing artwork, everyone has a different opinion.
[15:04] <_MMA_> lucazade: *By itself* I can see how you would be happy with this. But, I'd bet hard cash that users who upgrade will find this change confusing and think of it as a visual glitch. It's that comparison that will be the issue.
[15:06] <lucazade> from dotted line to this focus is a radical change.. i agree with you if this happens on clearlooks
[15:19] <_MMA_> In the end, I think it's bad having the same person developing 2 major engines. It, IMO, leads to less diversity between the styles.
[15:20] <lucazade> developers, developers, developers like Balmer would say
[15:20] <lucazade> :)
[15:21] <_MMA_> Oh you should be kicked for that one. :P
[15:21] <lucazade> ehheheh
[15:21] <lucazade> yes
[15:21] <lucazade> autobanned
[15:58]  * kwwii wanders off to the airport
[15:59] <_MMA_> Later Ken.
[18:44] <thorwil> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/foss-understanding-foss-visual-guide/
[18:51] <Cimi> kwwii, got any mockup for the focus ring?
[18:56] <thorwil> bonjour nand: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/03/24/ubuntu-904-free-culture-showcase-winners/
[18:56] <_MMA_> Cimi: kwwii went to the airport. Here is one pic though: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/11469/screenshot_023_35CHzk.png
[18:56] <Cimi> _MMA_, just like clearlooks
[18:57] <Cimi> there's already a patch I did to make it look similar
[18:57] <Cimi> the issue I'm trying to fix is the compaticility with dark colorschemes
[18:57] <Cimi> clearlooks focus ring sucks with them (and I did it :P )
[18:57] <Cimi> the second issue is the focus on the selected listview item
[18:57] <_MMA_> Sure. I've tested on my Studio theme and thought it was fine.
[18:57] <Cimi> I don't know how to focus it
[19:11] <Nece228> hi
[19:11] <Nece228> is there any fix for new wave theme in firefox
[19:14] <Nece228> toolbar is almost invisible, i mean black on black
[21:51] <ufuk_k> hello, is there a design guidelines about designing artwork for kubuntu?
[21:53] <o0Chris0o> I'm sure there is check here http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
[21:53] <ufuk_k> I checked it but I couşnd't find specific to kubuntu or KDE desktop.
[21:54] <ufuk_k> *couldn't
[22:15] <_MMA_> ufuk_k: Kubuntu follows upstream KDE for the most part.
[22:18] <ufuk_k> So all I need to post artwork to KDE-look.org?
[22:18] <ufuk_k> or the mailing list?
[22:34] <_MMA_> ufuk_k: Um, up to now, Kubuntu hasn't really been a part of this community. Since, like I said, they just follow upstream. So, it you have work for that crowd, KDE-Look might be best.
[22:36] <_MMA_> ufuk_k: But, if you're looking to get involved in what Kubuntu does, #kubuntu-devel might be the place to inquire.
[22:36] <ufuk_k> Ok I understand. Do you mean the part of artwork community or ubuntu community?
[22:38] <_MMA_> "This" community would mean Ubuntu simply because we're in a #Ubuntu channel and that gives it context. :)
[22:39] <_MMA_> This channel sees traffic mostly for Ubuntu. With a little work for Studio and Xubuntu.
[23:26] <kwwii> ufuk_k: you can comunicate any kubuntu changes directly through me
[23:26] <kwwii> ufuk_k: I kinda try to lead this team, and work on kubuntu as well
[23:27] <kwwii> kubuntu artwork used to be my job
[23:28] <kwwii> ufuk_k: feel free to email me directly or keep sending to the ubuntu-art list (even if there aren't a lot of kubuntu people around now, they could be)
[23:29] <kwwii> s/they/there
[23:30] <ufuk_k> ok, kwwii, Thank you.
[23:30] <kwwii> anyone know why that Cimi guy b0rked my theme? :D
[23:30] <kwwii> ufuk_k: look forward to talking more to you
[23:42] <Cimi> lol
[23:42] <_MMA_> kwwii: Because he thought the old one was "ugly".
[23:45] <kwwii> :p
[23:46] <kwwii> oh well, time for sleep
[23:46] <_MMA_> Night man.
[23:47] <Cimi> you are ugly!