[00:00] mpt: hey [00:00] mpt: pm? [01:20] can someone /msg me so that I can test something in the indicator-applet? [01:22] rickspencer3: is there a bot I can leave msg's for someone in this channel? [01:23] Bojhan: thanks! [01:24] rickspencer3: hehe, it was a question as well tohugh [01:24] Bojhan: sorry, I didn't actually read it [01:24] I don't know [01:35] Laney: I posted a new patch, but I don't have hardware to test this with. If you happen to have some bluetooth stuff and can test sharing files, that would be awesome. [02:07] tedg: around? [02:07] LaserJock: Yes. [02:07] tedg: do you have any bugs about the indicator applet not showing up with Pidgin? [02:07] Though, I've had a glass of wine ;) Expect more sarcasm than usual. [02:07] lol [02:08] LaserJock: Yeah, there seems to be one where it disappears. I haven't been able to track it down though. [02:08] it disappears or never appears? [02:08] Everyone seems to be doing what they're told, they just disagree on it. [02:08] Disappears. [02:09] hmm [02:09] If you want to see if Pidgin is actually indicating, you can run /usr/lib/indicator-applet/listen-and-print and that will print everything outputing an indicator. [02:09] for me it's like it doesn't see the indicator at all [02:09] Are you getting notifications? You might have the plugin disabled? [02:10] hmm, didn't check to see if it was disabled [02:11] which plugin is it? [02:11] I've got libnotify popups and message notification [02:12] ah, "libnotify popups" did the trick [02:16] LaserJock: Heh, now you can test the notification system :) [02:18] tedg: yes, it was kinda lonely since I don't use evo [02:18] I still wish I could get bzr-notify to be useful though :( [02:18] but as I understand it, it's being worked on some [02:20] Do you guys know, I want to leave a message for mpt but I can't seem to reach him trough irc, is there another way I could try contacting or leaving a message, or should I just come back later? [02:20] email? [02:20] LaserJock: Not on his website [02:21] Bojhan: it's on Launchpad [02:25] LaserJock: I do have my own bzr notification plugin. I haven't done much with it, but I could push it somewhere if you're interested. It only shows notifications if the operation takes longer than 30 seconds. [02:26] my problem is that I can't keep the notifications around long enough [02:26] is that something that's easy to tweak? [02:26] I keep putting my cursor on them and *poof* :-) [02:27] LaserJock: Not really :( One of the things that we're discussing for the Karmic version is the idea of a hotkey to keep the around longer. A "hold" key per se. [02:27] I talked to Mark about possibly putting bzr notifications in the indicator applet but he said that was not the right way to do it [02:28] I'm not sure how good of an idea it is though. It seems nice, but it's entirely indiscoverable. [02:28] it's just frustrating when I know my computer is trying to tell me something but I keep missing it [02:28] there's no way to get a log, for instance, that I've seen [02:28] LaserJock: ~/.cache/notify-osd.log [02:29] ohhhh [02:29] that's fantastic [02:29] I just need a GUI for it [02:29] Heh, I only have so many answers :) [02:29] like "Notification Log" when right clicking the indicator applet [02:30] hmm, this is really weird [02:30] but I almost wish I had a notifier of the notification :-) [02:30] It would be interesting if Bazaar could make the terminal it's running in call for attention... seems like it'd be possible. [02:31] Probably could exploit the fact that X has almost no security :) [02:31] I go away from laptop for 5 min, come back and have a "you have 5 notifications waiting" thing [02:31] the thing is queuing notifications [02:32] it's *good* information, I hate to be losing it all the time [02:32] The problem there is probably most of them you don't care about... login/logout or IMs, the display in Pidgin is better than anything we could do. [02:32] hmm [02:32] I can't recall getting a notification I didn't care about [02:32] at least at some level [02:32] if I don't care about them I turn them off :-) [02:33] See, and now I've helped you understand by adding a flood of notifications from your IM buddies ;) [02:33] Things like "7 new mail messages" from Evolution is useful when it's popping up. But in 10 minutes is just useless. [02:34] well, looking at the log it seems more useful than I thought [02:34] perhaps a simple pygtk "aggregator" would do the trick [02:35] it's more of what I was thinking the indicator applet was going to be [02:35] Cool, it'd be interesting to see what you come up with. We couldn't come up with something that we thought would work, but that doesn't mean there isn't an answer :) [02:36] yeah, I'm sure plenty of people would find it annoying [02:36] but right now the notifications are pretty much all stuff I'd like to be able to queue [02:36] something like gwibber for notification is what I'm thinking [02:37] perhaps tying into the FUSA "global status" thing would cut down on "noise" [02:38] Yeah, that would be interesting. The upstream GNOME guys are putting status into gnome session for that purpose. I don't believe that's the right place to put it, but if it's there, we should use it. [02:38] only queue from non-messaging type apps (pidgin, gwibber, etc.) while Available, but present everything that happened while Away [02:39] anyway, that's just a braindump after seeing that log [02:39] thanks for pointing that out, very useful [02:41] heh, I wonder if you could even present the notifications graphically as a timeline === Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth [02:44] That would be interesting. Have you seen the movies of the Wizbit timeline? It's pretty interesting how it compresses data as you zoom in and out. [02:47] it would be rather cool to see [02:47] but methinks my programming skills are not up to that task ;-) [07:29] Good morning [08:55] hello there [08:55] mvo: there? [08:55] where? [08:55] morning all [08:56] * pitti hugs seb128, bonjour [08:56] mvo: robert_ancell is getting the "do you want to migrate the logout button to a fusa applet" after every login [08:56] * pitti hugs robert_ancell as well, good morning [08:56] * seb128 hugs pitti, guten tag! [08:56] * robert_ancell tries to remember his german lessons... [08:56] guten morgen [09:00] * didrocks hugs seb128, pitti, robert_ancell & Tm_T :) [09:01] lut crevette didrocks [09:01] salut les jeunes :) [09:01] plop le vieux :p [09:02] good morning to the people who don't speak french [09:02] * seb128 got lot of retracer emails and hug pitti again for fixing those [09:03] \o/ [09:03] I checked it this morning, all quiet [09:03] hey pitti, I wanted to know how should I proceed to have dgb package for bluetooth [09:03] dbg [09:03] crevette: what's wrong with the -dbgsyms? [09:05] how could I get the dbgsysms ? [09:05] crevette: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash [09:06] ah okay, so I need to ask people to add that to their sources list [09:06] pitti: what was your wiki page about email filtering again? [09:06] seb128: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFilter [09:06] thanks [09:06] robert_ancell: ^ [09:07] seb128, robert_ancell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/talks/lp-bug-mail-filtering/lp-bug-mail-filtering.pdf as well [09:07] well, I guess it's not much useful without hearing the talk, though [09:08] thanks [09:12] pitti, another question :/, (I don't have access to a Linux smachine at work), is it possible to tell apport to don't check if crashing application comes from an official package (for https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez/+bug/343859) [09:12] Ubuntu bug 343859 in bluez "Sponsor new upstream version (4.33) into Jaunty" [Undecided,Confirmed] [09:13] seb128: oh? [09:13] robert_ancell: what kind of system is it? a hardy->intrepid->jaunty upgraded one? [09:14] mvo: jaunty upgraded [09:14] robert_ancell: could you please kill the running update-notifier and then run "update-notifier --debug-hooks" and give me the output in a pastebin (it will probably be long) [09:14] ? [09:15] mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/138093/ [09:16] crevette: it does that by default [09:16] mvo: This caused the notification to pop up again [09:17] seb128, are you sure, I'm used to see when one of my ppa is crashing, that apport can't report the bug because the package is not an official ubuntu package [09:17] crevette: right, which is what you were asking to get no? [09:17] ah no [09:18] crevette: well you have the .crash on your disk, sending it to launchpad would be wrong since that's an ubuntu version [09:18] crevette: you can still apport-retrace your local version [09:18] yeah :/, but I would be interested by the crasher backtrace [09:20] anyway, I need to focus on my day job [09:20] crevette: use apport-retrace locally? [09:28] robert_ancell: thanks, looking [09:31] mvo: I noticed when I closed the notification it crashed, see bug 348883 [09:31] Bug 348883 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/348883 is private [09:33] seb128, does apport generate debug information even if the package is not official? so the user can upload them and I can retrace on machine. [09:36] * mpt replies to Bojhan [09:37] crevette: yes, the .crash is in /var/crash too [09:37] robert_ancell: thanks, thanks that trace too, it looks lik eits crashing in the debug code :P [09:38] mvo: haha [09:47] robert_ancell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PatchTaggingGuidelines === davmor2 is now known as davmor3 === davmor3 is now known as davmor2 [09:54] sigh .it's all i can do to not reply very sarcastically to the person who just posted in ubunt-devel regarding the whole update-notifier change. [10:00] robert_ancell: I'm preparing a fix for the log problem and will upload to my ppa, then the log should be more useful, currently its broken :/ [10:00] mvo: ok, will test when ready [10:02] hyperair: why sarcastically? I thought it was a reasonably summation of the situation [10:03] maxb: sarcastically not to him, but regarding the whole decision of the desktop team in general [10:03] i'm still feeling rather sore about it [10:03] aha [10:03] Well, +1 on that :-) [10:03] yeah [10:04] The whole notifications/indicators thing has been hideously mishandled IMO [10:04] to put it rather bluntly, because a few idiots can't tell where to click, the rest of us have to endure the stupid window popping up, and delayed notifications of updates, and this new behaviour CANNOT BE TURNED OFF [10:04] #$%^&*( [10:05] troll troll troll [10:05] not really the channel for that guys [10:05] right. [10:05] it can be turned off via gconf [10:05] maxb: what has been mishandled? [10:05] mvo: oh it can? well my icon went missing the moment i turned it off [10:05] >=( [10:06] hyperair: the key in gconf is "auto_launch" [10:06] mvo: that's the key i messed with [10:06] mvo: and the icon effectively disappeared for me [10:06] hyperair: and it does not work? have you restarted update-notifier since? [10:07] regarding that... [10:07] perhaps not [10:07] seb128: Well maybe there's undercurrents that I'm not aware of, but it comes across to me as an ordinary user, as a small team at Canonical shoving an unwanted change down everyone's throats... and after FeatureFreeze no less [10:07] please try it, maybe that should be clearer in the gconf description [10:07] ^--- hyperair [10:07] hyperair: if that does not help, please report it as a bug [10:07] mvo: is there a gconf schema about this? [10:07] mvo: alright [10:07] hyperair: yes [10:08] maxb: i thought that was done before FF [10:08] maxb: no change landed after featurefreeze no, and it's not unwanted you always have vocal minorities on lists but that's not always representative of the userbase [10:08] hyperair: we are in string freeze, so I'm a bit hesitant to change the gconf schema doc, but maybe we can create a wiki page for it or something [10:08] mvo: alright [10:09] I wonder if we don't have a vocal *majority* in this case [10:10] maxb: how do you know? [10:11] maxb: your view is biaised on geeks users I gues [10:11] maxb: we will not know the normal non technical users reaction before having pushed that in a stable version to those users [10:12] maxb: following you way of thinking we would never do any change [10:12] maxb: it's good to try new things, look how it goes and adjust, if that's a failure at least that will have been experimented we can roll back next cycle and we will have learnt something [10:16] robert_ancell: its uploaded to my ppa now, in the meantime culd you please show me ~/.update-notifier/hooks-seen please? [10:17] mvo: doesn't exist [10:18] mvo: sorry, exists as hooks_seen but is empty [10:19] bratsche: No, sorry. Perhaps you can ask in #ubuntu+1? [10:21] robert_ancell: ok, thanks [10:21] robert_ancell: that should not be empty :) [10:21] robert_ancell: do you run i386 or amd64 ? [10:21] mvo: i386 [10:22] robert_ancell: ok, I build you a deb, the ppa probably takes some more time until its finished [10:40] robert_ancell: I uploaded a fix for the logging to http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/update-notifier/ - could you please install update-notifier and upate-notifier-common from there and run the --debug-hooks thing again? [10:44] mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/138142/ [10:47] robert_ancell: but the file is still empty I assume? [10:47] mvo: Now contains: [10:47] fusa-applet.note 1223780646 0 [10:47] firefox-3.0-restart-required 1237808887 0 [10:48] mvo: A bunch of notifications occurred about previous crashes etc [10:48] robert_ancell: ok, please check if you still see the dialog on the next start of u-n / next login [10:48] robert_ancell: right, that is apport [10:48] robert_ancell: maybe/hopefully the log fix fixed the file writing as well :) [10:49] mvo: brb [10:50] mvo: just restarted session, everything seems good now! [10:52] pitti: what is the criterious for failed retracing again? [10:53] pitti: ie shouldn't bug #346102 have been closed? [10:53] Bug 346102 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/346102 is private [10:53] robert_ancell: excellent, thanks a lot [10:53] mvo: no prob. thanks for the fix [10:53] mvo rocks at bug fixing as you can see ;-) [10:53] * mvo is also pretty good at creating them [10:54] hehe === davmor2 is now known as bolt_ [10:54] mvo: just curious but that was a corner case or something? weird that nobody ran into that bug before [10:54] seb128: failed-retrace -> "mostly ??" (do you want the precise algorithm?) === bolt_ is now known as davmor2 [10:55] seb128: we don't auto-close bugs if there weren't obsolete packages [10:55] pitti: ok, I was not sure about that one, thanks [10:55] I was not sure if we decided that "??" for the first n functions was enough to autoclose or not [10:56] we didn't decide that yet [10:56] I'm not saying I'd reject the idea, of course [11:09] mvo: is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/348110 the issue you just fixed too? [11:09] Ubuntu bug 348110 in update-notifier "update-notifier crashed with SIGSEGV in g_cclosure_marshal_VOID__VOID()" [Medium,New] [11:09] crash in hook_file_mark_as_seen() [11:21] sorry to ask dumb question, but what should I look at in a stacktrace. I should examine each functions to see if parameters are sane for instance? [11:21] http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18611864/Stacktrace.txt is a good candidate to show me [11:21] :) [11:24] crevette: start looking to the crash line [11:24] crevette: is this case hs = 0x0 [11:24] crevette: you might have some code which doesn't handle the case where it's not set or something [11:26] at #2 the src seems weird src = {b = "¥\210Ó`\020"} [11:32] mvo: hm, I just saw james_w's question about auto-running Ubuntu CDs in nautilus and update-manager [11:32] mvo: where is the logic that brings up the "ubuntu cd inserted" dialog? [11:35] pitti: update-notifier I guess and nautilus does handle autoruns [11:35] pitti: I think we should just disable the nautilus autorun code, I'm not sure there is any linux CD around using that [11:35] 95% of the cases you will get a microsoft autorun and the dialog will not work [11:35] seb128: I think it's mainly meant for windows CDs and using wine [11:35] but that doesn't work anyway [11:36] seb128: I agree; at least for jaunty, the integration just isn't there yet [11:36] seb128: I just noticed the request for packging gnome-pilot 2.0.17 [11:36] another component unmaintained in ubuntu [11:36] is anyone interested in gnome-pilot? [11:36] I've no device to use that and never used it [11:36] neither have I [11:37] seb128: I'd do the update now, mainly since our current version is so old, but I can't test it really either [11:37] heh [11:37] do the update and rely on users to do the testing ;-) [11:37] I'm not sure many user are using that anyway [11:37] crevette, ember, didrocks: does any of you happen to have a device which works with gnome-pilot and is interested in updating? [11:37] seb128: okay [11:38] pitti: I have any device yet, that uses gnome-pilot. So, it will be difficult for testing :) [11:39] it should have some maintainer in Ubuntu, though [11:39] everything should [11:39] in practice that's not that easy ... [11:42] pitti, gnome-pilot is for palm devices, right ? [11:42] or we should remove it from the default install [11:42] crevette: for PalmOS, yes [11:43] my father gave me one few years ago, but I never used it, I'm not really interested in those devices... [11:43] pitti, I can send it to you if you want [11:43] :) [11:43] crevette: that's USB? [11:43] Paml is so 90's for me :) [11:43] well, I don't exactly have spare cycles to maintain this either, I'm afraid [11:43] but if nobody wants to, we should remove it from default install [11:44] pitti: there was a discussion on the list about dropping it from the default install recently [11:44] pitti, oh no, it's the one with the craddle on serial I guess [11:44] I would vote for dorpping it from default install [11:45] pitti, this is this one http://mobileministrymagazine.com/uploaded_images/PalmVx-789461.jpg [11:45] it's not even in the menu [11:46] ah [11:46] pitti: it is in system preferences [11:46] crevette: a friend of mine has an old Palm 3x with a serial cable; but heck, I don't even have a serial port anywhere [11:47] pitti, me neither [11:47] I just have a laptop with usb nowaday [11:47] seb128: with "Bienvenu" and not "Bienvenue" in French :D [11:49] pitti: the logic is inside update-notifier, it hooks into libhal [11:50] seb128: I unified the debug log stuff some days/weeks ago and I guess noone ran into a notification since [11:50] seb128: that unification had a bug [11:50] ok [11:50] seb128: the bug is the same [11:51] mvo: see the other bug number I posted there, you might want to close that as well [11:51] ok good [11:51] thanks seb128 [11:51] * seb128 hugs mvo, good work! [11:51] makes me wonder about the beta testing though [11:51] we are in a beta testing week and nobody noticed the issue ... [11:52] admittedly we do rather new installs testing than upgrades but still [11:52] seb128: bug 348940 [11:52] Launchpad bug 348940 in gnome-pilot "[FFE] New upstream release 2.0.17" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/348940 [11:52] pitti: thanks [11:52] dobey, around? [11:53] mvo, seb128, what are you talking about, missing notification icon when there is updates ? [11:53] crevette: hi [11:53] seb128: I sub'ed you, since AFAIK you ack FFEs for GNOME? [11:54] dobey, hello, I seen there was an update of the icon-naming-spec recently, but no changelog, do you know what was changed, and if it is possible to have the changelog? [11:54] pitti: I'm not sure about main, I've been delegated by MOTU for universe [11:55] ah, I see [11:55] pitti: I think for main that's still u-r deciding, ie slangasek [11:55] I'll put it into the desktop PPA for now then [11:55] pitti: I gave my +1 on the bug for the record ;-) [11:55] does version 0.8.90 mean the version is a like a beta for 0.9 ? [11:56] ah damn it I forgot to open a FFe for nemiver ... [11:56] crevette: http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/icon-theme/icon-naming-utils/ChangeLog?view=log [11:57] crevette: eh, icon-naming-utils will be going away soon anyway. [11:57] dobey, ah I'm stupid, I should have look here. [11:57] dobey, why ? [11:57] crevette: http://launchpad.net/icontool [11:58] dobey, but the spec will continue ? [11:58] crevette: will be merging stuff into there, and it will do more stuff than just the symlink compat crap [11:58] pitti: btw the discussion I mentionned was "Strawman: remove vendor-specific configuration tools from default install" on -discuss [11:58] seb128: yes, I noticed that, but I didn't reply back then [11:59] pitti: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/334446 [11:59] Ubuntu bug 334446 in gnome-pilot "Remove gnome-pilot from the default ubuntu install" [Undecided,Confirmed] [11:59] icon-namings-utils permits to maintain compatibility for gnome and KDE icons, right ? [11:59] pitti: you have some palm users subscribed to this bug, you can probably ask for testing feedback there ;-) [11:59] crevette: yes, it just creates symlinks for old icon names, so apps will still get the new icons even though they haven't all migrated [11:59] seb128: nice, thanks [12:03] dobey, do you have an idea for https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/348683, si we use application-x-executable ? [12:03] Ubuntu bug 348683 in gnome-panel "application-default-icon.png provided is not Tango compliant" [Wishlist,Confirmed] [12:04] sorry to bother you, don't hesitate to kick me [12:08] there is my opinion/idea :) [12:11] dobey, actually the patch comes from ubuntu [12:11] well the bug is in launchpad, so sure [12:12] the patch is http://patches.ubuntu.com/g/gnome-panel/extracted/09_default_icons.patch [12:12] and we also provided the icon [12:12] i don't see what that has to do with my suggestion? [12:12] which is to say "don't do that" [12:12] :) [12:13] dobey, okay so for you we should drop the patch [12:13] yes, that is what i suggested [12:13] I should test without the patch to see what that look like [12:14] either don't put an icon there, put an empty icon, or fix the code so that all menu items have the same height [12:14] dobey, ah you think the icon is here because it make sures the height is the same on all menu entries? [12:14] i think that's the only valid reason to stick such an icon there [12:14] I don't know the rationale of the patch ... [12:15] (although, using an icon to do that is the wrong fix) [12:15] seb128,, do you know what is the rationale behind http://patches.ubuntu.com/g/gnome-panel/extracted/09_default_icons.patch [12:15] crevette: we got a menu saying that having an icon would be better than the empty upstream way [12:15] crevette: and that icon was suggested [12:16] that was years ago [12:16] s/we got a menu/we got a bug/ I guess [12:17] okay [12:25] bbiab [13:27] I did a clean install of Jaunty Beta last night, it's working quite [13:27] well [13:27] it's the first time I installed a 64 bit build as well [13:28] The only issue so far is that I am experiencing the "Intel Slowness" [13:28] in terms of X [13:36] rickspencer3: what video card? [13:36] 965 by chance? [13:36] seb128: I see that CD Creator is in System Tools [13:36] rickspencer3: try changing to uxa and reporting you results on this wiki page [13:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/UxaTesting [13:36] kenvandine_wk: yah, thanks [13:37] uxa made a huge difference for me... went from unusable to damn fast [13:37] kenvandine_wk: ack [13:37] bryce has been working on this problem for months [13:37] hey rickspencer3 [13:37] yeah, hard problem [13:37] hey pitti [13:38] I think bryce is pretty close to having it cracked, so I'll wait for him to get online in case there's some extra testing or something I can do to help him out [13:38] UXA doesn't change much FWIW; just causes some rendering artifarcts [13:38] pitti: It looks like "System Tools" menu item crept into the beta [13:39] rickspencer3: yeah, unfortunately :( we quickly discussed it some days ago, but I don't remember the conclusion; seb128? [13:39] well, we shall remove it soon :) [13:39] kenvandine_wk, in config without worg.conf I can just put this part of config and it'll work? [13:39] yes [13:39] neat [13:39] rickspencer3: what do you suggest? [13:39] the rational is that this one opens the burn: location [13:40] crevette: works great here... my box is completely unusable without it :/ [13:40] * pitti wants the freeze to end and to get his 30 fix committed bugs closed [13:40] that was in the places menu before but that's not really a place either [13:40] kenvandine_wk, my display is so slow, I need to try that [13:40] Accessories I suppose is the only other logical one [13:40] crevette: which video card? [13:40] * seb128 is having a meeting with davidbarth and looking through notify-osd bugs [13:40] seb128: speaking of which, the a11y menu also only has one entry (orca) [13:40] * kenvandine_wk would rather see a button in nautilus [13:40] rickspencer3: would be confusing to have one for the GUI and one for the nautilus location though [13:40] intel x3100, but I don't remember the display chipset [13:41] pitti: yeah, I told TheMuso and he said he would fix after beta [13:41] crevette: lspci -nn | grep VGA [13:41] ah, nice [13:41] kenvandine_wk, I don't have my laptop here [13:41] ok [13:42] seb128: I'm not sure what you mean [13:42] I think it's okay to have more than one way to get to the fuctionality [13:42] rickspencer3: there is one item in sound&video already which opens the GUI [13:43] right, brasereo [13:43] I'm not sure if having 2 similars icons for different things would be confusing [13:43] i would rather see a button in nautilus that takes you to burn:/// [13:43] I think brasereo is very tuned to creating audio cds (though I know it does more) [13:44] and CD/DVD creator is more of an archiving tool [13:44] I think it would work fine in accessories [13:44] ok good [13:44] and also you can get to it by right clicking on things, and saying "burn" [13:44] what do you think? [13:44] I was considering putting it back in the places menu [13:44] but accessories works too [13:44] hmmm [13:45] I would like to get mpt opinion on that one too [13:45] asac: could you please pastebin me the lshal output of your system with the 3g card? [13:45] I was going to suggest ivanka, but either way [13:45] right [13:45] oops, brb [13:45] seb128, I think Accessories makes a bit more sense than Places [13:46] did someone call? [13:46] A CD/DVD that you haven't inserted yet isn't really a Place in the sense that all the other items in the menu are [13:47] mpt: is this what we were talking about the other day? [13:47] ivanka, yes [13:47] then I agree with you [13:47] the "CD/DVD Creator" item in the Places menu [13:48] seb128, on a slightly related topic, is Terminal in "Accessories" upstream, or is it in "System Tools"? [13:48] mpt: that is upstream [13:48] kenvandine_wk, which is? [13:48] terminal in acces [13:48]