[22:32] <LirazSiri> good evening guys
[22:32] <nhandler> Good evening LirazSiri
[22:33] <LirazSiri> I've had a bit of trouble understanding why my nomination for Ubuntu membership was not going to be supported, so I figured I would try a more realtime form of communication.
[22:35] <mdke> speaking for myself, it was because I'm not familiar with your work
[22:35] <mdke> nothing personal!
[22:35] <LirazSiri> Hi mdke
[22:35] <mdke> hi
[22:35] <LirazSiri> have you seen my wiki page?
[22:35] <mdke> no
[22:36] <LirazSiri> sec. let me get the link
[22:36] <mdke> well, it's not really relevant
[22:36] <LirazSiri> mdke my work is documented there
[22:36] <mdke> testimonials are for people you've worked with in the community; I haven't worked with you yet as far as I'm aware
[22:36] <mdke> the wiki page is different, that's to document your work for the membership board (which I'm not on)
[22:37] <LirazSiri> sure, but it's also a good introduction
[22:37] <mdke> sure thing
[22:37] <nhandler> LirazSiri: It is, but the testimonials are used as a way to show your interactions with other members of the community. This purpose is defeated if people you have never worked with write them
[22:37] <mdke> but I can't give you a testimonial unless I've seen your working directly
[22:38] <mdke> right, nhandler has put it well
[22:38] <LirazSiri> alright, but my role in UWN has never required me to collaborate with other members. It's very well defined.
[22:39] <mdke> well, other contributors to the UWN are ideal for giving testimonials
[22:39] <LirazSiri> Basically for the last 3 months I've been responsible for the Security and Package updates sections and compiling various performance benchmarks for the project - bug stats, translation stats
[22:39] <mdke> I haven't worked on the UWN
[22:39] <mdke> cool
[22:39] <mdke> the UWN is one of the most important initiatives in the whole project, so it's great that you're helping that
[22:40] <LirazSiri> well, I took over from Kenny who performed a similar role for a shorter time period. The UWN supported his nomination.
[22:40] <nhandler> LirazSiri: Who helped you get involved with the UWN? That would be a good person to ask
[22:41] <LirazSiri> I did, unfortunately they have stonewalled me. I'm really at a lost here
[22:41] <LirazSiri> I mean at a loss
[22:41] <mdke> well, testimonials aren't absolutely essential to get membership. They are important though, can't johnc4510 or tyche give you one?
[22:41] <LirazSiri> Thankfully, the wiki documents my contributions objectively in a way that is hard to refute
[22:42] <LirazSiri> When I asked John for a testimonial after having been in that role for 8 issues he promised another month and they would feel comfortable testifying as to my commitment.
[22:43] <mdke> they should just testify about your existing contributions. It is for the membership board to judge whether those are enough
[22:43] <LirazSiri> I wouldn't mind that
[22:45] <LirazSiri> Unfortunately, a month has passed and though John says he has no trouble with my work, he also refuses to support my nomination. He won't explain his reasons behind the the change of heart. It's very kafkaesque...
[22:46] <mdke> johnc4510: perhaps you could try adding whatever you are comfortable with to LirazSiri's wiki page. Any details on his work would help the board judge his application
[22:46] <mdke> LirazSiri: I'm assuming you're a "he", sorry if that's wrong
[22:46] <LirazSiri> that's a correct assumption mdke
[22:47] <LirazSiri> It's all very discouraging. I really didn't expect this from the UWN team.
[22:47] <LirazSiri> BTW, I came here to talk to him one-on-one. No such luck
[22:48] <mdke> well, let's not jump to any conclusions yet, maybe you'll sort it out
[22:48] <LirazSiri> mdke, can I send you the email he sent me about it?
[22:48] <mdke> LirazSiri: better not, if it's a private email
[22:49] <LirazSiri> well, it was addressed to all the other members of the UWN. We do public work. We don't have any kind of private relationship, so I don't see why this would be off limits.
[22:49] <mdke> LirazSiri: I'm happy to mediate by email if you can't sort it out with him directly, but please try talking one-on-one first and see if you can find some common ground
[22:49] <mdke> I don't have the feeling that it's necessary to get to that stage yet, to be honest
[22:50] <LirazSiri> johnc4510: I would love to talk to you one-on-one. My Gtalk is liraz.siri@gmail.com
[22:50] <mdke> LirazSiri: if it's off-list, then it's better not to share it without permission
[22:51] <LirazSiri> mdke: I understand your concern. I usually feel that keeping matters in the dark doesn't work as well as putting it all out in the open. That way you know you have to justify yourself not just to the other party but to the community.
[22:51] <LirazSiri> it's one of the reasons I favor open source over proprietary software
[22:52] <mdke> sure
[22:52] <mdke> well, if you don't work it out, then send us an email at the Community Council, but please take all possible steps to sort out the problem privately first, I'm pretty sure it's possible
[22:52] <LirazSiri> BTW, I did try to bring the matter to discussion on the list. I felt it was on topic since I was a member of the news team and the ubuntu membership process is a public acknowledge by the community for a member's contributions. John really didn't like that.
[22:53] <kennymc0> hey LirazSiri
[22:53] <LirazSiri> hey kenny
[22:53] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: what do you think about all of this?
[22:54] <kennymc0> LirazSiri: i think that the reason that johnc4510 didnt like that you asked for testimonials on the mailing list is because that's supposed to be more of a personal thing when you ask for someone to give you something like that
[22:54] <LirazSiri> mdke: thanks for the tip. I'll try to sort this out with John first. I'm hoping we'll find common grounds
[22:54] <kennymc0> he probably would have reacted better if you would have sent a personalized email to each person asking them for it
[22:54] <mdke> I don't see a problem with asking on a mailing list if that's the area that you've been contributing.
[22:55] <mdke> the thing about the news-team list is that it has quite a few groups on it
[22:55] <kennymc0> right
[22:55] <mdke> so not all the readers will be familiar with your contributions (as per Alan's response)
[22:55] <mdke> but it's not a big deal, don't worry
[22:55] <LirazSiri> mdke: I didn't either. I don't see how this could be personal. I'm not asking for a personal favor. Just someone to summarize the contributions objectively documented in the Wiki.
[22:56] <LirazSiri> the board can then decide based on that if they think it's a sufficient contribution to warrant membership or not...
[22:56] <mdke> that's a correct summary of what the testimonial is intended for
[22:57] <LirazSiri> So do I really need to "resolve" anything with john? Couldn't any Ubuntu member do that?
[22:58] <kennymc0> they also want to see how well you work with other people
[22:58] <kennymc0> which you have been kinda off doing the updates and not asking questsions or asking if there is anything else that you could help with or anything
[22:58] <LirazSiri> Not that I wouldn't love to have him on his side. I'm just feeling a bit discouraged after being blown off like that after months of consistent contributions.
[22:58] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: that's true
[22:59] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: on the other hand, that's something I managed to squeeze into my work/life routine.
[22:59] <kennymc0> i understand
[23:00] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: I did ask you guys when I was starting out if doing this solo would be a problem and the answer was no. The team was happy that I wanted to help.
[23:00] <kennymc0> there are other things that can be done at other times during the week as well
[23:01] <LirazSiri> there is always more to contribute. If I had a few more hours a week I might volunteer but I'm squeezed pretty tight as it is. Taking care of 6 sections consistently and reliably on UWN is not a trivial undertaking.
[23:02] <kennymc0> i understand
[23:02] <LirazSiri> kenny you did this before I did, you know how it is
[23:02] <kennymc0> i did that for several months along with a couple more sections on top of it so i understand
[23:03] <LirazSiri> what I am asking for is not a judgement, that's the board's job. I'm just asking someone to summarize my contributions, which is what a testimonial is supposed to be for.
[23:04] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: could you do that for me?
[23:04] <kennymc0> the thing is the board looks at who made the testimonial and that goes against the person that made the testimonial if the person does something they shouldnt
[23:05] <LirazSiri> you mean there is a trust issue here?
[23:05] <kennymc0> and with how little everyone knows of you they are most likely afraid of putting themselves in that kind of possition
[23:05] <mdke> kennymc0: I don't think that's fair. If the testimonial is honest and specific, then there is nothing to worry about
[23:05] <LirazSiri> guys, it's true that I don't have a lot of time to kick around on IRC, but I'm not exactly a secretive person.
[23:06] <LirazSiri> check out my website http://liraz.org/
[23:06] <LirazSiri> If you google me I go way back... a decade in fact
[23:06] <mdke> kennymc0: a testimonial that says "I support this person's application" is not worth much, but a testimonial that says "this person has been doing X for Y months and has contributed to our project in Z way" is very worthwhile
[23:07] <LirazSiri> Also, this is kind of silly. I'm not seeking a cabinet position. Being an Ubuntu member doesn't grant me any special powers or privileges. It's just a symbolic token of gratitude from the community to a contributor that has earned it.
[23:08] <mdke> right. Don't get discouraged, just sort this out and carry on your work, it's extremely useful. Any work on the UWN is extremely useful
[23:08] <mdke> as I said, for me it's one of the most important parts of the community
[23:08]  * mdke goes to bed, night all
[23:09] <LirazSiri> mdke: thanks mdke, that was helpful.
[23:09] <mdke> np
[23:10] <LirazSiri> BTW, I want you all to know that regardless of how this turns out I don't have any intention of ceasing to contribute to UWN. With or without Ubuntu membership. I would like to be treated fairly however. Secret suspicions aren't in line with the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
[23:13] <LirazSiri> kennymc0: why don't you think about it and email me your decision. I would really appreciate it if you could testify on my behalf, not only on the board, but also with other UWN members. You hang around here much more than I do. If you guys have any questions please feel free to ask me. I'll be happy to tell you as much you care to know about me if that will help mitigate your concern.
[23:14] <kennymc0> ok i can do that
[23:16] <LirazSiri> Thanks Kenny. Good night, and send John my regards. I would really like to speak with him to try and get to the bottom of this.
[23:16] <kennymc0> ok
[23:16] <kennymc0> good night