[10:59]  * persia peers about
[11:01] <persia> Oops.  Wrong Week
[11:01] <PmDematagoda> persia: isnt the meeting now?
[11:01]  * elky nudges persia
[11:01] <persia> I thought so too, but I checked the wiki page, and it's next week (the 14th)
[11:01] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
[11:01] <elky> aha
[11:02] <PmDematagoda> oh
[11:02] <PmDematagoda> well, then I'll have to withdraw my name for now
[11:02] <PmDematagoda> until my exams are over
[11:02] <persia> And you've been there so long :(
[11:02] <PmDematagoda> persia: no worries
[11:03] <PmDematagoda> persia: to be rather honest, Ive been forgetting this meeting for months :)
[11:03] <elky> we all have
[11:04] <PmDematagoda> elky: Ive made a reminder application to help me attend, looks like it works well :)
[11:05] <elky> i have one of those too. it's called a phone.
[11:05] <PmDematagoda> elky: lol
[11:05] <elky> it reminds me and i look in here, see a lack of amachu, and forget about it for the next week
[11:06] <PmDematagoda> elky: I still havent put that in, hopefully I can do that after my exams :)
[12:44] <egbert> ?
[12:44] <egbert> ?
[15:00] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is cjwatson.
[15:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:00] <cjwatson> [Technical Board]
[15:00] <cjwatson> mdz,Keybuk: here?
[15:01] <Keybuk> yup
[15:01] <mdz> yep
[15:01] <jono> hey folks
[15:01] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Internal Support For Community Development (Daniel Holbach)
[15:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Internal Support For Community Development (Daniel Holbach)
[15:01] <cjwatson> dholbach doesn't seem to be around
[15:01] <cjwatson> jono: can you speak to this one?
[15:01] <jono> Daniel is on holiday
[15:02] <mdz> I don't know what this is referring to
[15:02] <cjwatson> this seems to be a carried-over item; it just doesn't look familiar and I can't remember what it was about
[15:02] <jono> I am not sure what this is referring to either
[15:02] <cjwatson> Maria appears to have added it on the 24th March
[15:02] <cjwatson> rev 190 of the wiki page
[15:02] <cjwatson> randa: ?
[15:03] <mdz> I think it was taken out of context and we can skip it
[15:03] <jono> ok
[15:03] <cjwatson> remove from agenda for next time then?
[15:03] <mdz> done
[15:03] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Codecs in ffmpeg (Reinhard Tartler) (cf. Debian #522373)
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Codecs in ffmpeg (Reinhard Tartler) (cf. Debian #522373)
[15:03] <cjwatson> this is carried over; is there anything new?
[15:03]  * siretart` waves
[15:04] <mdz> Daniel sent a followup to technical-board@
[15:04] <siretart`> AFAIUI there is no requirement to strip of encoders from the orig.tar.gz for 'main'.
[15:04] <mdz> with more questions from siretart
[15:04] <mdz> jono is working on writing up a clear policy based on the guidance from sabdfl at the meeting
[15:05] <mdz> he sent me a draft overnight, which I haven't had the chance to review yet
[15:05] <siretart`> as a small update, I've filed the same questions as debian bug #522373 with some possibly relevant references
[15:05] <mdz> jono: would you mind sending it direct to t-b@ so it doesn't block on me?
[15:05] <jono> mdz, no problem
[15:06] <cjwatson> siretart`: the encoder/decoder identity wrt MPEG LA patent enforcement is new information to me. At least at one point, I was under the impression that encoders were enforced more rigorously than decoders. Is this a relatively recent change?
[15:06] <siretart`> if there is no requirement to strip of the source, the package names -unstripped- are misleading at best. does someone have better names for the multiverse packages?
[15:07] <cjwatson> "full"
[15:07] <siretart`> cjwatson: according to my research, the taxes for MP3 and AAC are higher. for mpeg2 and co they are the same
[15:07] <mdz> do we consider these patents "alleged" or "judge-tested" per sabdfl's guidance?
[15:07] <siretart`> cjwatson: I'm happy to learn about other references though
[15:07] <cjwatson> siretart`: I'm speaking about whether they are in practice enforced, rather than what the financial considerations are in the event that they are enforced
[15:09] <siretart`> cjwatson: to my research, they are only enforced when selling products containing them. I have no indication that mere source-code distribution is enforced
[15:09] <siretart`> and TBH, mere binary distribution does not seem enforced as well, since ubuntu already shipped them in the past
[15:09] <siretart`> and others as well
[15:09] <cjwatson> selling products based on Ubuntu is something we support, of course
[15:09] <siretart`> that's of course no proof
[15:10] <siretart`> indeed. we blacklist these packages from the livecd, after all
[15:10] <siretart`> and thus, from the default install
[15:10]  * cjwatson nods
[15:11] <siretart`> practically, for jaunty, this lead to 3 changes:
[15:11] <cjwatson> mdz: are we in a position to answer siretart's e-mailed questions yet, or do we need to review jono's proposed policy first?
[15:11] <cjwatson> unfortunately I hadn't seen the latter before this meeting
[15:11] <siretart`> a) no longer munge libavcodec/allcodecs.c in the ffmpeg source
[15:12] <cjwatson> siretart`: for jaunty? what are the release-critical bugs being fixed by a proposed change here?
[15:12] <siretart`> b) enable (some) encoders in libavcodec52
[15:12] <siretart`> c) rename the multiverse -unstripped- package to a better fitting name
[15:12] <jono> cjwatson, the patent policy is a general  document that ultimately ends in "reviewing serious cases"
[15:13] <siretart`> cjwatson: well, ok, not really release critical, but I'd like to do the changes now and have them ready for karmik
[15:13] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't think the policy helps yet; it doesn't provide guidance on making the decision, only process (and thus needs work)
[15:13] <jono> so the continued review of this case can continue while the document is prepared
[15:15] <mdz> cjwatson: under the circumstances (we have no inquiry made by a patent holder), I think what siretart wants to do is OK, but since this is the first time we've applied this guidance, I'd like to confirm with sabdfl first
[15:15] <cjwatson> mdz,siretart: from what I can tell, I agree, but I would prefer the package rename to be deferred until karmic since that will involve changing reverse-dependencies
[15:16] <mdz> cjwatson: agreed, I don't see an indication that this is urgent or RC and so would default to leaving it alone for 9.04
[15:16] <mdz> that will also give us time to get the policy finished, and a final OK
[15:16] <siretart`> cjwatson: I don't think this will involve changing any reverse-dependencies, but I'm also happy to delay this for karmic
[15:17] <jono> I will continue to drive forward the patent policy and try to get something in place for the  next TB meeting
[15:17] <siretart`> mdz: the next question will be what to do about AAC, MP3 and h264. the h264 encoder is currently in multiverse, which could then be prmomoted to universe (which would get us vlc in universe as well)
[15:17] <cjwatson> siretart`: xine-lib
[15:17] <jono> I am keen to get this documented as complete as possiblesoon
[15:18] <siretart`> mdz: but that'
[15:18] <cjwatson> also aqualung, audacity, blender, ...
[15:18] <siretart`> mdz: but that's strictly speaking offtopic right now
[15:18] <cjwatson> siretart`: (from grep-aptavail unstripped)
[15:18] <mdz> jono,cjwatson,Keybuk: let's aim to process all of the feedback on the policy and have a proper draft ready for the next meeting
[15:18] <jono> mdz, agreed
[15:18] <cjwatson> right
[15:18] <Keybuk> mdz: agreed
[15:18] <cjwatson> siretart`: thanks for your patience on this
[15:18] <siretart`> cjwatson: yes, but we'd need transitional packages anyway.
[15:19] <mdz> jono: is it OK if we just edit your draft directly?
[15:19] <cjwatson> siretart`: right, best done at the start of a release cycle rather than the end :)
[15:19] <jono> mdz, sure
[15:19] <siretart`> cjwatson: of course
[15:19] <mdz> cjwatson: actions?
[15:19] <cjwatson> oh, sorry
[15:20] <cjwatson> [ACTION] TB to process feedback on Jono's proposed patent policy and complete draft by next meeting
[15:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  TB to process feedback on Jono's proposed patent policy and complete draft by next meeting
[15:20] <cjwatson> [ACTION] mdz to confirm siretart's proposed ffmpeg changes with sabdfl
[15:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to confirm siretart's proposed ffmpeg changes with sabdfl
[15:20] <cjwatson> anything else?
[15:21] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Archive Reorganisation (Colin Watson)
[15:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive Reorganisation (Colin Watson)
[15:21] <cjwatson> sorry, I have no progress on that this week owing to being flat-out on jaunty
[15:21] <cjwatson> I believe the Launchpad changes are still on track
[15:21] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AB
[15:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  AB
[15:21] <cjwatson> err
[15:21] <jono> from my last check in with Daniel there was no further progress on the community side of the project other than organizational work
[15:21] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:22] <cjwatson> nhandler asked me a few days ago if we could keep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Technical up to date
[15:22] <mdz> nothing from me
[15:22] <Keybuk> I'm good
[15:22] <cjwatson> I was not entirely keen on the prospect of having to update yet another page with an IRC log, and asked whether it would be OK if we just linked to the mootbot log
[15:22] <cjwatson> any objections to that?
[15:23] <mdz> cjwatson: hmm, surely between the fridge and mootbot that should be automatable
[15:23] <cjwatson> mdz: you would have thought so, but ...
[15:23] <cjwatson> (and that was more or less my reaction too)
[15:23] <cjwatson> I'm not overly familiar with the world of automatic wiki editing myself
[15:23] <mdz> cjwatson: we can ask randa to help with that if needed
[15:24] <cjwatson> in the meantime, how about I put a note on our standing agenda next to "update TeamReports"
[15:24] <cjwatson> if it's just a link, it isn't too onerous
[15:24] <mdz> ok
[15:25] <cjwatson> has somebody been in contact with vorian to follow up from the last meeting?
[15:25] <jono> I spoke to him on the phone
[15:25] <cjwatson> I had a brief mail thread with him, CCed to technical-board@
[15:25] <jono> also I know nixternal has been in touch with him
[15:26] <cjwatson> I would like to know whether we should be scheduling a separate meeting with him at some point to reconsider him
[15:26] <jono> he did not mention any plans to consider an application again
[15:26] <cjwatson> it seemed to me that trying to cram it into the end of a TB meeting was part of the problem
[15:27] <jono> I think the barrage of questions at the same time was a factor too
[15:27] <jono> (mainly due to the lack of time)
[15:27] <cjwatson> yes, that stemmed from the meeting format
[15:27] <jono> maybe we could consider soliciting answers to questions on a wiki page
[15:27] <mdz> I'd like to revisit at some point how we process applicants; a panel interview is not necessarily the ideal format
[15:27] <jono> and then ask further questions in the meeting
[15:27] <jono> mdz, agreed
[15:28] <mdz> jono: could you take that on as part of your governance review?
[15:28] <mdz> jono: by the way, how is that going wrt the TB?
[15:28] <cjwatson> jono: or an e-mail interview
[15:28] <jono> mdz, no problem
[15:28] <jono> mdz, it has been bumped a few times, but on-going
[15:28] <jono> I should have something ready soon
[15:28] <jono> likely for the next meeting
[15:28] <cjwatson> (I find wikis to be a poor means of conversation, I don't imagine I'm the only one; I would prefer applications not to be a form-filling exercise)
[15:28] <jono> cjwatson, email interview could make sense
[15:29] <jono> my worry about email is that it could drag on for a long time
[15:29] <jono> whereas with a wiki the main questions could be answered first and then reviewed and discussed in the meeting
[15:29] <cjwatson> jono: could well be better than meetings every two weeks ;-)
[15:30] <jono> heh, wise point
[15:30] <cjwatson> e-mail seems workable in the MC; not ideal of course, but they do seem to make progress
[15:30] <cjwatson> (nowadays, anyway)
[15:30] <jono> why don't we try email first
[15:31] <egbert> is this the right place/moment to briefly discuss the server install script?
[15:33] <cjwatson> egbert: I'm not sure. What is the specific question?
[15:33] <egbert> I was wondering if there is a special reason to choose for just DHCP in the network settings. Why not a choice between fixed/dhcp?
[15:33] <mdz> egbert: what server install script?
[15:33] <cjwatson> you can cancel the DHCP progress bar and get a choice, or you can use expert mode
[15:33] <mdz> oh, you mean the installer used for the server edition
[15:33] <cjwatson> I don't think this is appropriate for this meeting though
[15:34] <cjwatson> you can ask questions about the installer in #ubuntu-installer
[15:34] <egbert> OK, then  I shut up.
[15:34] <egbert> will do, tnx
[15:34] <cjwatson> it sounds like we're finished here
[15:34] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[15:34] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:34.
[15:34] <cjwatson> I'll write stuff up
[15:34] <Keybuk> thanks cjwatson
[15:34] <Keybuk> and mdz
[15:35] <mdz> thanks all
[15:35] <egbert> bye
[15:35]  * Keybuk heads for breakfast
[15:36] <jono> thanks
[15:47] <james_w> it's interesting to the MC just moved *to* IRC interviews for applications, and now the TB is considering moving away from them
[16:00] <ttx> OK, who's here for the server team meeting ?
[16:00] <jamesrfla> I am
[16:00] <sommer> yo
[16:00] <nijaba> o/
[16:01] <ttx> You guessed it, the incredible mathiaz is unavailable, so you'll have to bear with the less-incredible me as your host.
[16:01] <zul> morning
[16:01] <zul> the more french ttx?
[16:01] <ttx> yes. The true one.
[16:01] <ttx> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is ttx.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <ttx> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:02] <ttx> Last week logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090331
[16:02] <ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:02] <ttx> That should be quick, since there weren't any.
[16:03] <ttx> Unless someone wants to comment on some of last meeting points ?
[16:04] <ttx> I'll suppose not. Let's move on to:
[16:04] <ttx> [TOPIC] Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
[16:04] <ttx> Anyone has any progress reports ?
[16:05]  * ttx feels very lonely :)
[16:06] <sommer> it's just that things are going really well :)
[16:06] <jamesrfla> Not really sure what to say. First meeting with you guys
[16:06] <ttx> sommer: did you get some reviewing on the Server Guide ?
[16:06] <ttx> sommer: how much is it OK to change things after StringFreeze ?
[16:06] <sommer> ttx: yep there was some
[16:07] <sommer> ttx: at this point it's very bad I guess translation freeze is tomorrow
[16:07] <sommer> ttx: but we can always fix issues with the karmic branch :)
[16:07] <ttx> sommer: likewise-open 5 apparently requires reboot before you can attempt a GUI login as a domain user. I uploaded a version that warns the user, but I thought adding it to the doc might also be a good idea
[16:07] <ivoks> o/
[16:08] <sommer> ttx: ah, ya that will probably have to be in karmic
[16:08] <sommer> ttx: or an SRU
[16:08] <ttx> sommer: ok. A bug is filed anyway.
[16:08] <sommer> ttx: cool, I think I rember seeing it
[16:09] <ttx> OK, let's move to Open bar^Wdiscussion
[16:09] <ttx> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[16:09] <jamesrfla> what can we talk about in the open discussion?
[16:09] <ivoks> anything server related
[16:09] <ttx> jamesrfla: anything :)
[16:09] <ivoks> sorry for being late
[16:09] <ttx> So FinalFreeze is coming up this Thursday
[16:10] <ttx> if you have critical bugs (especially regressions) that have yet to be fixed, it's almost your last chance
[16:10] <jamesrfla> Does anybody have any suggestions for running two server os on one computer
[16:10] <ivoks> uh, already?
[16:11] <ttx> ivoks: April 9th
[16:11] <jamesrfla> hey that is my birthday ttx
[16:11] <ivoks> well, i sorted everything i had :)
[16:11] <egbert> Any chance that the postfix-dovecot mail system will be enhanced with amavis/spamassassin/etc?
[16:11] <ivoks> egbert: not for jaunty
[16:11] <egbert> offcause  not. but for KK?
[16:11] <ivoks> egbert: but that and much more should arrive in karmic
[16:12] <zul> if we dont work ivoks to the ground then then no
[16:12] <ivoks> it's not that i have that much to do
[16:12] <egbert> OK for the near future I'll install from .deb of taball
[16:13] <ivoks> tarball?
[16:13] <egbert> sorry...
[16:13] <ivoks> anyway, that's not meeting material
[16:13] <egbert> no
[16:13] <ttx> Nothing else anyone wants to mention ?
[16:14] <ivoks> i do
[16:14] <ivoks> we rock!
[16:14] <ivoks> :D
[16:14] <jamesrfla> lol
[16:14] <sommer> heeeh
[16:14] <ttx> \o/
[16:14] <jamesrfla> Go Ubuntu server :)
[16:15] <ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:15] <ttx> Same time, same bat-channel, next week ?
[16:15] <sommer> sure
[16:15] <jamesrfla> Can we make it another time or something. This time I can't make it
[16:16] <jamesrfla> The only reason I am hear today is because of my spring break
[16:16] <ttx> jamesrfla: what would be your availability ?
[16:16] <jamesrfla> Maybe 2PM eastern US time and any other time after that
[16:16] <ivoks> next week is spring break too
[16:16] <ivoks> jamesrfla: well, i don't want to be rude...
[16:16] <ivoks> but most of us are from europe
[16:16] <ivoks> :D
[16:17] <ivoks> 2pm eastern us is... quite late in europe
[16:17] <ttx> jamesrfla: team is across Europe/US so US mornings are the best time
[16:17] <jamesrfla> oh I see. Well just as long as you guys are okay with me not being hear all the time. Only days off I can make it
[16:17] <ivoks> s/most/part/
[16:18] <ttx> ok, so we'll keep the current time then
[16:18] <sommer> jamesrfla: there's a log, and the meeting minutes are usually posted to the server mailing list and blog
[16:19] <ttx> Anyone has anything else to add ?
[16:19] <ttx> Please ?
[16:19] <zul> i do...not really...hah kidding!
[16:19] <jamesrfla> okay sommer I will take a look at them when I miss the meeting
[16:19] <ttx> #endmeeting
[16:19] <ivoks> ttx: i was hoping we would beat the record this time :)
[16:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:19.
[16:19] <jamesrfla> short meeting
[16:19] <egbert> no, I'm off to the kitchen... 17:20 here (NL)
[16:20] <jamesrfla> fine with me :)
[16:20] <ttx> ivoks: well, I'll beat the record of the most boring meeting minutes, that's for sure.
[16:20] <ivoks> ttx: well, it would be a problem if we had something to discuess so late in release process
[16:20] <ttx> I couldn't prepare something funny, I didn't know I would chair this one 30 minutes ago
[16:21] <nealmcb> that was quick....
[16:21]  * ttx hugs nealmcb
[16:21] <nealmcb> :)
[16:21] <sommer> ttx: a horse walks into a bar... and the bartender says why the long face?
[16:21] <ttx> nealmcb: if you have something interesting to add, I'll make sure it makes it to the meeting minutes.
[16:21] <sommer> ttx: that one's always funny :-)
[16:21]  * nealmcb hugs the whole server team (except those that are hug-averse)
[16:22] <jamesrfla> :)
[16:22] <jamesrfla> I did a science fair project on Ubuntu server and got 1st place at science fair
[16:22] <ivoks> yay
[16:23] <nealmcb> I'm still wound up in IDtrust and ElectionAudits and Android work so haven't been finding time for much server team stuff - sorry to say....
[16:23] <nealmcb> jamesrfla: cool - what did you do?
[16:24] <jamesrfla> I benchmarked Ubuntu server edition with apache2 and Windows server 2008 standard with IIS and see how fast they could reply with a response and how many pages it could send at once
[16:25] <jamesrfla> I also got a renewable one year scholarship to my local college along with first place
[16:27] <ivoks> static html?
[16:27] <jamesrfla> For some reason Ubuntu server wouldn't go past 400 clients at once. There was some security thing. Windows server 2008 was able to get up to 3000 clients before giving out errors. For my final results I just tested the servers up to 400 cliesnt
[16:27] <ivoks> er?
[16:27] <jamesrfla> ivoks: I tested too saved web pages. A saved cnet.com page and a picas web album
[16:27] <jamesrfla> ivoks: er?
[16:27] <ivoks> which apache mpm?
[16:28] <jamesrfla> ivoks: mpm?
[16:28] <ivoks> yes, apache has diferent MPM's for diferent loads
[16:29] <nealmcb> i.e. how threads are handled
[16:29] <ivoks> for static html, worker MPM would be better than prefork
[16:29] <ivoks> for php, worker with fastcgi is faster and better for server than prefork
[16:29] <ivoks> prefork just provides some functionality worker doesn't and is easier to set up :)
[16:29] <jamesrfla> Oh yeah I remember now. I tried to configure it so it would go over 400 clients but after a few days trying to get it working and time running out I had to give what I had
[16:30] <jamesrfla> I just got the default apache2 from the repository
[16:30] <ivoks> apache can do over 400 concurent connections without a problem
[16:30] <ivoks> jamesrfla: there are couple of apache2 in repository :)
[16:30] <ivoks> jamesrfla: did you install php5 module?
[16:30] <jamesrfla> ivoks: I did sudo apt-get install apache2
[16:31] <ivoks> ok, that was probably worker
[16:31] <jamesrfla> ivoks: no I didn't. Maybe I should of gone to the #ubuntu-server for help on this. I went to #apache
[16:32]  * jamesrfla hugs the Ubuntu Server team (unless somebody doesn't want to get hugged) 
[16:37] <jamesrfla> Cya later Ubuntu server team for now
[20:21] <hggdh> er, well, aren't we late?
[20:24] <Ampelbein> hggdh: 20:00 UTC
[20:24] <Ampelbein> hggdh: andreas@apophis:~$ date -u
[20:24] <Ampelbein> Tue Apr  7 19:24:05 UTC 2009
[20:26] <hggdh> Ampelbein, heh. As usual, got confused by daylight
[20:28] <Ampelbein> yeah, we had the change last week and i was irritated, too. as well were my cats ;-)
[20:31] <charlie-tca> 1/2 hour yet, isn't it?
[20:33] <Ampelbein> true
[20:50] <andol> Ampelbein: Hey, got kind of confused there for a short while, seeing "my" name in a promt like that :)
[20:52] <Ampelbein> andol: ;-)
[20:52] <hggdh> Andreas :-D (almost was my son's name, got the Portuguese version in the end)
[20:53] <andol> Well, I guess it's too good of a name to keep to one self :-)
[21:01] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, Pricey, popey, stgraber, phanatic: POKE :)
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> here
[21:01] <popey> here
[21:01] <phanatic> here
[21:02] <Seveas> Pricey and stgraber both said that they might have problems being on time today, so I suggest we start without them
[21:02] <forumsmatthew> okay
[21:03] <jpds> Isn't it the CC meeting now?
[21:03] <Seveas> LirazSiri, you're up first, please do your 3-line introduction.
[21:03] <Seveas> jpds, no, that's in an hour
[21:03] <LirazSiri> Hi everyone
[21:03] <popey> hmm, fridge says now
[21:04] <Seveas> really?
[21:04] <LirazSiri> I'm from Israel, a member of the news team, the co-founder of TurnKey Linux and an Ubuntu enthusiast all around
[21:04] <popey> mistake Seveas , the wiki says 21:00 UTC
[21:04] <Seveas> pfew
[21:05] <LirazSiri> On the Ubuntu news team I've been involved with UWN
[21:05] <LirazSiri> In charge of 6 sections since issue #126 (we're at issue #137 now), help some minor editing before that.
[21:06] <cody-somerville> Is this the EMEA?
[21:06] <popey> cody-somerville: yes
[21:06] <Seveas> LirazSiri, the mails we received earlier this week worry me. Why are you not cooperating with the team but doing your work independently?
[21:06] <LirazSiri> Seveas: there are time zone differences
[21:07] <Seveas> cooperation does not need to be real-time
[21:08] <LirazSiri> the UWN team is based in Arizona, I'm based in Israel. I've been guided into a role that does does need real-time collaboration. I have been collaborating with the team via Email whenever the need has arised. Most of my work for UWN is very well defined. I asked in advance if working solo would be a problem and the team said no.
[21:08] <popey> LirazSiri: other than the news team and TurnKey, are there other positive ways you've contributed to Ubuntu that we can see?
[21:09] <LirazSiri> Well I don't know if this counts, but I'm the editor for the Ubuntu category on DMOZ
[21:09] <popey> I meant specifically towards the ubuntu project, bug tracking, loco work, answers, forums, wiki edits and so on.
[21:09] <Extend> so i'm not included
[21:09] <Extend> or not yet?
[21:10] <popey> Extend: not yet
[21:10] <Extend> ok how much time ?
[21:10] <popey> Extend: 5 more people before you
[21:10] <Extend> cause i want to go and come back after a short period
[21:10] <charlie-tca> Extend: goes right down the list on the wiki
[21:10] <Seveas> Extend, please wait your turn. We follow the list on the wiki in the order it is now
[21:10] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA see that list Extend
[21:10] <Extend> okay thank you
[21:10] <popey> np
[21:11] <popey> LirazSiri: still there?
[21:11] <forumsmatthew> LirazSiri, I'm not seeing much community involvement outside of the UWN, and with the discomfort your team mates there are feeling at the moment, I'm having trouble seeing how we could consider your membership.
[21:11] <LirazSiri> IMHO, my main contribution to Ubuntu has been as a developer of Ubuntu appliances. I've helped introduce thousands to Ubuntu as a server platform. That's what I've been receiving the strongest positive feedback for from the community.
[21:11] <popey> ok, understood
[21:12] <LirazSiri> my team mates aren't uncomfortable with my contribution, or my work at all
[21:12] <popey> does turnkey have its own community?
[21:12] <LirazSiri> they've testified for me
[21:12] <Seveas> LirazSiri, the mail received yesterday says otherwise. John clearly didn't want to endorse you then but now I see a testimonial. That confuses me
[21:13] <LirazSiri> you guys have to understand that the rest of UWN is very tightly nit geographically. They're all Arizona locals. I guess that's part of the reason I've been viewed as a bit of an outsider. Nobody is questioning my work though.
[21:13] <LirazSiri> Seveas: John has written a testimonial on my behalf on my wiki page.
[21:13] <popey> I don't believe the UWN team works in quite such a black and white manner as you put
[21:13] <Seveas> LirazSiri, yes I see. I find that puzzling and would like to know what made him change his mind
[21:14] <forumsmatthew> FWIW, I am also an Arizona local...
[21:14] <LirazSiri> Seveas: communication
[21:14] <popey> I am inclined to agree with forumsmatthew, I'd like to see a more sustained spread of work through the community
[21:15] <LirazSiri> regarding the TurnKey project, it's an extension of the Ubuntu community
[21:15] <Seveas> well, UWN work is good, but is turnkey a contribution to ubuntu or a 'competitor'?
[21:15] <forumsmatthew> I see a reference to adequacy, not really a stellar endorsement in John's or Kenny's testimonials
[21:15] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, yeah, that's what I read in it as well
[21:15] <LirazSiri> I do some development, but mostly help write documentation, tutorials, answer questions on the forums. None of it is unique to the project.
[21:16] <forumsmatthew> The Turnkey website is nice looking, and it seems like a good project. I'm not sure that is community involvement, but it looks like good stuff.
[21:16] <popey> I'm going -1 for now due to lack of concreate testimonials, and a lack of breadth of work within Ubuntu.
[21:16] <LirazSiri> Seveas: I think you are influenced by the tone in the emails you read before. I think we cleared up the air afterwards
[21:16]  * Pricey tries to catch up
[21:16] <LirazSiri> http://www.turnkeylinux.org/tracker
[21:16] <Pricey> Apologies for being late.
[21:17] <LirazSiri> that's a good way to see the breadth of involvement. We're helping thousands of users with the project.
[21:17] <Seveas> LirazSiri, then why are there no links to said documentation and forum things on your wikipage? How are we supposed to know about them if you don't tell us?
[21:17] <popey> We have quite a few people to get through and a hard time limit chaps
[21:18] <forumsmatthew> LirazSiri, the tracker page shows that you are active in supporting your project. That is great! It doesn't show activity in the greater Ubuntu community.
[21:18] <LirazSiri> Seveas: that's a good point. I was led to believe that because our sister project was not part of the official Ubuntu project it would not be considered. I really don't agree with that, but it led me to downplay that contribution
[21:18] <Seveas> yeah, I'm going for -1 now. Additional contributions should be documented and I want to see a solid endorsement from the UWN team
[21:18] <LirazSiri> Seveas: what is missing in the endorsement in your opinion?
[21:18] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, Pricey, phanatic: a vote please
[21:18] <forumsmatthew> popey is right. We need to move on. I need to -1 for now with a comment to read Seveas comment above
[21:19] <Seveas> LirazSiri, what forumsmatthew said: <forumsmatthew> I see a reference to adequacy, not really a stellar endorsement in John's or Kenny's testimonials
[21:19] <LirazSiri> so you're saying what is lacking is enthusiasm?
[21:19] <Seveas> what is lacking is an actual endorsement
[21:19] <popey> and a breath of work
[21:20] <popey> breadth
[21:20] <popey> why can i never spell that
[21:20] <forumsmatthew> What is lacking is a sense of "wow, this guy is a great asset to the Ubuntu community!!" rather than a "yeah, he's okay."
[21:20] <forumsmatthew> and what they said...
[21:21] <popey> Pricey: ?
[21:21] <LirazSiri> well, what can I say. I've done the work and I consider TurnKey to be a notable achievement, but you are entitled to think otherwise.
[21:21] <Seveas> and phanatic?
[21:21] <popey> LirazSiri: nobody said turnkey wasn't notable
[21:21] <Pricey> Sorry, searching a failing for the email referred to earlier.
[21:21] <phanatic> i haven't read the discussion you all refer to, so i'd stay at 0.
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> LirazSiri, the tracker page shows that you are active in supporting your project. That is great! It doesn't show activity in the greater Ubuntu community.
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> That's a quote of what I said earlier.
[21:22] <LirazSiri> the download stats show that there is a huge amount of objective interest from the community. 8000 downloads just last month...
[21:22] <popey> Anyone can sit back and watch a download counter click over
[21:22] <LirazSiri> Many of these people hadn't previously considered Ubuntu as a server platform.
[21:22] <Seveas> Pricey, phanatic: the mail was only sent to popey and myself. I will forward it to you
[21:22] <cody-somerville> LirazSiri, Is there any particular reason you host your own forums instead of integrating with the official Ubuntu forums?
[21:22] <popey> Downloads do not a community make
[21:22] <Pricey> Seveas: aha. makes sense!
[21:23] <LirazSiri> popey: it's not as simple as that. You have to make good stuff and support it for people to be interested
[21:23] <LirazSiri> We don't do any marketing, so people are recommending this to each other by word of mouth after they've used it themselves and have received support on the forums
[21:23] <Seveas> ok, let's move on to the next candidate. LirazSiri let's discuss a bit more tomorrow and see if we can get things cleared up
[21:23] <popey> By all means discuss it with us via mail.
[21:23] <Seveas> knome, you're up, please introduce yourself
[21:23] <LirazSiri> ok guys, thanks for your consideration. ttyl
[21:23] <Pricey> I think we could come to a better conclusion that way yes.
[21:24] <popey> Seveas: no, its ianto next
[21:24] <Seveas> I see no ianto in the nicks in this channel :)
[21:24] <popey> ooo
[21:24] <jpds> ianto isn't around and isn't on Jabber either.
[21:24] <popey> silly rabbit
[21:24] <Seveas> so knome is up :)
[21:24] <Seveas> idle for 2.5 hours, knome when you arrive poke me
[21:24] <Seveas> moving on to tuxlinux
[21:25] <popey> maybe this list isnt as long as I first thought
[21:25] <Seveas> tuxlinux, please introduce yourself
[21:25] <Seveas> also idle for a while. tuxlinux, knome: please be in time for meetings :)
[21:25] <Seveas> andol, are you here?
[21:25]  * andol is here
[21:26] <popey> \o/
[21:26] <Seveas> excellent, please introduce yourself :)
[21:26] <andol> Hello, my name is Andreas
[21:26] <andol> As a computer user I'm very much the system administrator. Besides having it as my profession it is also kind of my primary role in the Swedish Ubuntu LoCo.
[21:26] <andol> Perhaps not suprisingly, most of the bugs I triage are related to the server team.
[21:27] <andol> (Also been doing some general translations)
[21:27] <Seveas> andol, how do ddtp-ubuntu and ddtp in debian cooperate?
[21:28] <andol> Seveas: From what I've understood, there are some exports being done upsteam to Debian.
[21:28] <Nafallo> andol: don't forget to mention your debdiff patches to bugs have been sponsored... :-)
[21:28] <popey> Nafallo: are you here in support of andol ?
[21:28] <Nafallo> popey: can be a quickie if needed. as long as I don't have to IRC from the shower :-)
[21:29] <popey> TMI
[21:29] <Nafallo> he got root on my VPS hosting the ubuntu-se.org and he's quite quick on answering my questions about PHP and such :-)
[21:30] <Nafallo> I do support him.
[21:30] <popey> I'm seeing bugs filed and replied to, albeit not a tremendous amount, and a small amount of translation via launchpad.
[21:30] <andol> popey: Well, I guess I'd say my primary contribution has been in the LoCo.
[21:30] <Nafallo> oh!
[21:30] <Seveas> long time activity in swedish loco (and I have a weak spot for sysadmins) make me lean towards a +1
[21:30] <Nafallo> well worth mentioning is long standing user support in #ubuntu-se :-)
[21:31] <Seveas> but I do feel that loco work could be better supported
[21:31] <Pricey> Do we have anyone else from -se to cheer?
[21:31] <Seveas> s/supported/documented/
[21:31]  * popey points Pricey at Nafallo 
[21:31] <forumsmatthew> I see activity over a sustained period of time, and some good testimonials. I'm +1
[21:31]  * Pricey points popey at 'else' :P
[21:31] <forumsmatthew> I liked the last line of the second testimonial on the wiki page
[21:31] <forumsmatthew> "he is always very kind and helpful, a good representative for the Ubuntu spirit"
[21:32] <popey> indeed
[21:32] <phanatic> +1 the others have already explained why :)
[21:32] <Seveas> phanatic, lazy :P
[21:33] <Pricey> ah both of those cheers are from the leaders of the LoCo
[21:33] <popey> that helps
[21:33] <popey> not some random dude like Nafallo ;)
[21:33] <popey> +1
[21:33] <Nafallo> yeah. founder of loco must be a bad one ;-)
[21:34] <Pricey> Yep I'm happy to give +1 too.
[21:34] <Seveas> k, welcome aboard andol!
[21:34] <forumsmatthew> congratulations!
[21:34] <andol> thank you.
[21:34] <Nafallo> Congrats andol!
[21:34] <Seveas> Ampelbein, you're next
[21:34] <popey> Keep up the good work!
[21:34] <iGama> Contratz
[21:34] <Nafallo> andol: you owe me three beers! :-)
[21:34] <Ampelbein> Hi there. I'm Andreas, 29 years old from germany. My regular job is as IT-Supporter/System-operator working from home. I have been active in the community since last year, mostly in bug-triaging, packaging and helping on IRC.
[21:34] <jpds> congrats andol!
[21:34] <Ampelbein> In the field of package upgrades I started with some simple tasks and am now starting to work on more complex packages, like library updates. In bug triaging, I have learned quite a lot on what information is needed for upstream to fix the bugs reported.
[21:34] <tuxlinux> congrats andol
[21:34] <Ampelbein> In the future, I want to be more active in bug fixing and sending upstream, trying to take work away from the developers. Also, I want to continue my journey towards becoming a MOTU. Thanks for your consideration.
[21:35] <Seveas> I like the feedback template thing (and those endorsements as well)
[21:35] <Ampelbein> Seveas: i "borrowed" that from the developer-application-template ;-)
[21:36] <popey> we should use that template!
[21:36] <tcross> Hi.  This is my first time at a meeting and my friends and I were wondering wWhy does ubuntu-server use vim-tiny, and not vim?
[21:36] <popey> tcross: ask in #ubuntu-server :)
[21:36] <Seveas> tcross, this is not the meeting for such questions
[21:36] <tcross> sorry
[21:37] <tcross> will do
[21:37] <popey> I see a lot of development work, would this membership request not be better off going through MOTU?
[21:37] <Seveas> Ampelbein, between september and march I see no uploaded packages. What happened?
[21:37] <Ampelbein> Seveas: little time and a hospital visit.
[21:37] <popey> Wow! Look at all that bug work!
[21:37] <Ampelbein> so i focused on other things
[21:37] <Seveas> fair enough
[21:37] <jpds> Seveas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/DeveloperApplicationTemplate
[21:37] <Ampelbein> which don't take that much time.
[21:38] <Seveas> can you give some examples of advocacy you did?
[21:39] <popey> I'm going to +1 based on great bug work and a testimonial from seb
[21:39] <Ampelbein> sure. whenever i am asked to give some aid in computers I bring a cd of ubuntu to show them, how easy things could go.
[21:39] <Pricey> I'm confused about karma and things on launchpad, 8 translations viewable though a huge amount of translation karma?
[21:39] <Seveas> Ampelbein, ok, last question from me: why take this route towards membership instead of the motu route?
[21:39] <Ampelbein> also, i try to persuade people that having a non-legal copy of windows for business use
[21:40] <Ampelbein> Seveas: i'm not confident i have what it takes to become a MOTU right now.
[21:40] <forumsmatthew> I don't see how I could do anything but give a +1 to someone who is so active in making Ubuntu better, and who has good testimonials.
[21:40] <Ampelbein> need some more learning i thing.
[21:40] <forumsmatthew> MOTU is a great goal, and I hope you pursue it actively
[21:40] <Ampelbein> think. blah.
[21:40] <popey> :)
[21:40] <Seveas> good answer
[21:40] <Seveas> +1 from me
[21:40] <forumsmatthew> even so, I think there is adequate evidence of activity
[21:40] <Ampelbein> Pricey: the karma comes from uploading packages where the upstream translations are imported.
[21:41] <Pricey> Ampelbein: aha. Thanks.
[21:41] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, yeah, evidence good, testimonials ok and plans clear :)
[21:41] <phanatic> +1, hope to see you as a motu soon
[21:41] <Ampelbein> thanks. i'm sure I will ;-)
[21:41] <Pricey> I'll go with a +1 too. The MOTU don't bite though!
[21:42] <Seveas> some of them do...
[21:42] <Pricey> Seveas: you enjoy it.
[21:42] <Ampelbein> thanks for all the positive feedback.
[21:42] <Seveas> ah, I missed forumsmatthew's +1
[21:43] <Seveas> so, you're there, congrats!
[21:43] <forumsmatthew> congratulations!
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Congratulations, Ampelbein
[21:43] <jneves> Ampelbein: congratulations
[21:43] <Ampelbein> thank you very much.
[21:43] <bdmurray> Ampelbein: congrats!
[21:43] <iGama> congratz
[21:43] <phanatic> welcome, Ampelbein
[21:43] <Seveas> Extend, you're next
[21:43] <tuxlinux> congrats Ampelbein
[21:43] <Extend> ok i am ready
[21:43] <Seveas> then please introduce yourself :)
[21:44] <Extend> my name is mohamed zaian , im from egypt alexandria , i work as a linux systems administrator in a large company in middle east
[21:44] <Extend> i started work with unix/linux systems earlier in 2002/2003
[21:45] <Extend> got introduced to FreeBSD by a friend
[21:45] <Seveas> Extend, you're lying on your wikipage: {*} Member of Ubuntu members Launchpad team.
[21:45] <Seveas> that's not true yet ;)
[21:45] <Extend> i worked with FreeBSD many years till 2005/2006 i had many good contributions in the old bsdforums.com and, then
[21:46] <Extend> oh Seveas this is a mistake
[21:46] <Extend> not a lie i can't lie on that
[21:46] <Pricey> Wow 1200 people attended the install fest?!
[21:47] <Extend> yes Pricey
[21:47] <popey> Extend: some nice integration how-tos on your blog - be nice to see them on the documentation wiki
[21:47] <Extend> i can show you the pics
[21:47] <Seveas> Extend, if you read along in the meeting, you know that we value testimonials/endorsements highly. Given that your contributions seem to be limited to the egyptian locoteam, I would like to see some comments from other community members
[21:47] <Extend> popey, i will but u know no much time to do everything but i will do my best
[21:47] <popey> :)
[21:47] <Extend> Seveas, we are having a problem in egypt loco team
[21:47] <Pricey> Extend: can only help
[21:48] <forumsmatthew> I've been reading the EGLUG site (I speak some Arabic...) and am enjoying the mix of languages.
[21:48] <Extend> forumsmatthew, that's nice
[21:48] <Extend> Seveas,
[21:48] <Extend> the admin of the loco team is away
[21:48] <Extend> i talked in #ubuntu-locoteams to jono bacon and nick ali
[21:48] <Extend> we r in talks to change the leaderhsip and to let the guys work
[21:48] <Extend> we have many members and they are active and good
[21:49] <Extend> the loco team channel is dead
[21:49] <Extend> i want to refresh that
[21:49] <Seveas> Extend, the admin being away sure doesn't mean that nobody can comment on your work :)
[21:49] <Extend> if you read the mailing list of our team you you will notice about what im talking about
[21:49] <Seveas> is the mailing list in english? (I do not speak arabic I'm afraid)
[21:49] <Extend> Seveas, yes you are sure
[21:49] <Extend> yes it is in english
[21:50] <forumsmatthew> As I am looking through everything, I think you show a lot of promise. What I would like to see, along with Seveas, are more comments from people who know you and can effectively describe your contributions
[21:50] <Extend> i can help you translate arabic using some tools in ubuntu ;) and on the web
[21:50] <Extend> forumsmatthew, wait i will get some friends here
[21:50] <forumsmatthew> That would be great!
[21:50] <Extend> ok just give me minutes
[21:51] <popey> I can see a lot of enthusiasm, but the launchpad answers work started the same time as membership was applied for, and very little bug work
[21:51] <forumsmatthew> FYI, we need to surrender the channel in just over 5 minutes...
[21:51] <Pricey> Several teams joined on the 4th too.
[21:51] <Extend> popey, u r right i was away and i wasn't learn using launchpad that much
[21:51] <Pricey> Extend: Did you say you had some photos?
[21:51] <Extend> Pricey,  yes give me a moment
[21:52] <popey> I prefer to see a sustained effort over a period of time, before I would say yes to membership.
[21:52] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, we can continue elsewhere if needed :)
[21:52] <Extend> this is the fest page in facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/Alexandria-Egypt/Linux-Install-Festival-in-Alexandria/50973332573?v=wall&viewas=613900569
[21:53] <Extend> some photos of the fest are here
[21:53] <Extend> http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo_search.php?oid=6707385873&view=all
[21:53] <popey> \o/ happy people using ubuntu
[21:54] <Seveas> I'm going for -0 now, Extend you're showing good membership potential, but more documentation and endorsements would be very welcome
[21:54] <Extend> popey, we r getting more ppl
[21:54] <Extend> Seveas, i don't know what to say
[21:54] <Extend> thank you :)
[21:54] <popey> I too will go 0, because I can see you're enthusiastic and clearly want to contribute to your loco, but would like to see a more sustained effort
[21:54] <phanatic> Seveas: +0 looks better :)
[21:54] <Extend> http://www.eglug.org/node/3154 this was from the bib alex sessions
[21:54] <Seveas> Extend, just say that you'll continue to do good work, and that you'll fix up your wikipage and come back in 2 months ;)
[21:55] <popey> maybe come back after 3 months?
[21:55] <popey> 2.5 months :)
[21:55] <Seveas> :-)
[21:55] <Extend> i will continue my work whatever happens from you guys
[21:55] <Extend> cause i love to do that
[21:55] <Seveas> ok
[21:55] <forumsmatthew> Yeah, me too. +0. I think you show great potential and I want you to come back with more evidence to help us gauge your activity, and some testimonials
[21:55] <popey> Awesome!
[21:55] <Pricey> I think I'm going to go -1 sorry. I would agree with the others that I think we would like to see a more sustatined contribution, and get some people cheering for you (as well as photos!)
[21:55] <Extend> and it some kind of love to this world
[21:55] <Extend> Pricey,  i posted the photos link
[21:56] <Extend> here it is http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo_search.php?oid=6707385873&view=all
[21:56] <Seveas> CC is moving into this channel now. Pricey phanatic popey forumsmatthew jneves hggdh (and those who want to join), please come to #ubuntu-emea-meeting for the rest of the EMEA meeting of today
[21:56] <Pricey> #ubuntu-emea-meeting
[21:56] <popey> ooo
[21:56] <Seveas> elmo, the floor is yours ;)
[21:56]  * popey picks up his glass and coaster, and shuffles over to #ubuntu-emea-meeting
[21:57] <forumsmatthew> I hope the CC has a great meeting...I'm heading off to #ubuntu-emea-meeting
[21:57] <Extend> so i'm done?
[21:58] <popey> yes
[21:58] <Extend> thanks
[21:59] <Technoviking> afternoon all
[22:01] <Technoviking> anyone else here for the CC meeting?
[22:01]  * elmo is
[22:02] <elmo> we seem to be under represented by CC people though
[22:03] <Technoviking> don't think there is anything on the agenda, since we finish the FC votes.
[22:04] <elmo> yep
[22:04] <elmo> anyone with any other business?
[22:05] <elmo> (otherwise I think we may as well nix this particular meeting)
[22:05] <Technoviking> I love a smooth running community:)
[22:06] <elmo> yeah!  well done community for not needing governance!  ;-)  (or at least, not our governance)
[22:07] <Technoviking> ok, neet meeting will be in two weeks, then it is time for Jaunty love!!!
[22:08] <cody-somerville> lol
[22:20] <mako> hi
[22:20] <mako> i guess i missed that :)
[22:21] <Seveas> you didn't miss much :)
[22:21] <mako> apparently not :)
[22:23] <Extend> !ping