[00:24] <akgraner> nhandler: Iearned how to edit wiki's today...are there any that needed to be reviewed for typos and grammar?  or where do I go to find out?
[00:25] <akgraner> well I need to fix my own typo's too as evidence of early sentence...ugh:)
[01:02] <jjesse> am i looking for the code for ubuntu-docs in the wrong spot?  is it https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc?
[01:05] <jjesse> ah found it at: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
[04:08] <j1mc> hi all
[04:08] <nhandler> Hey j1mc
[05:19] <OsamaK> Hello, is ubuntu documentation freeze in action?
[05:27] <emmajane> j1mc, hey :)
[05:28] <emmajane> j1mc, I got your registration!!
[05:29] <j1mc> emmajane: cool.  :)
[05:29] <j1mc> i'm looking forward to the conference
[05:30] <j1mc> based on some of the conversations on the docteam mailing list, the gnome-doc mailing list, and being one of only two open-source doc'ers at a recent doc conference, i thought it would be helpful to attend.
[05:30] <emmajane> j1mc, me too :)
[05:30] <emmajane> j1mc, I just updated your account, so you should be able to edit the unconference pages now.
[05:30] <emmajane> j1mc, I'm just writing a quasi-reply to the docteam one.
[05:32] <j1mc> sure... it seems like we've had a lot more conversations than normal there lately. it can be a little contentious, but hopefully the conversations will bring about good things for the docteam and the docs.
[05:54] <OsamaK> again, any answer?
[05:58] <dtchen> OsamaK: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule
[05:59] <OsamaK> seen, but is it in action right now
[06:00] <dtchen> string freeze is in effect, yes
[20:47] <mdke> ho hum
[20:51] <philip_> i can't get http://www.lynxworks.eu/editor/ to do anything useful, except chat on irc
[20:54] <mdke> chatting on irc is no mean feat
[20:56] <philip_> it can be... mean
[20:58] <mdke> irc?
[20:59] <philip_> oh, bad joke... just that communication (people) can be mean
[20:59] <mdke> they certainly can
[21:00] <mdke> ooh, golf
[21:23] <mdke> evening Rocket2DMn
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , reading Wiki Team LP permissions thread right now
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> like 50 emails today
[21:27] <Rocket2DMn> Ok mdke , I do like the idea of re-evaluating the team and subteam structure
[21:29] <Rocket2DMn> How do you propose dealing with new members who want to learn how to commit to bzr?
[21:31] <Rocket2DMn> I suppose as far ask LP teams are concerned we can keep those with AdminGroup privs and those with EditorGroup privs together
[21:33] <Rocket2DMn> I assume anybody can check out a bzr branch and commit to that, just not the main branch?
[21:37] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: new members learning how to commit to bzr don't really need a team
[21:37] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: but the idea is that there would be one open team, either ubuntu-doc itself or an ubuntu-doc-contributors, which interested people could join to show interest
[21:38] <mdke> yeah, lots of emails
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> Yeah, I'm hashing out my idea right now, which actually has 2 "enthusiast" teams
[21:38] <mdke> I've had to give up for the time being to concentrate on getting the jaunty release out
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> one for system doc, the other for wiki doc
[21:38] <mdke> that would my original idea
[21:38] <mdke> phil asked the question why two separate teams are necessary
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> ah, ok, im just responding to the latest in the thread
[21:38] <mdke> I think he has a point
[21:39] <Rocket2DMn> The biggest reason I would see is because they are so different
[21:39] <mdke> that doesn't really matter for the purposes of showing interest though
[21:39] <mdke> keeping a single team kinda demonstrates that the two projects are part of the same team
[21:39] <Rocket2DMn> point taken
[21:40] <Rocket2DMn> what teams do we have now exactly?
[21:42] <mdke> too many :)
[21:42] <Rocket2DMn> hehe yeah, are we merging in xubuntu-doc and edubuntu-doc, etc?
[21:43] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/+members
[21:43] <Rocket2DMn> yeah im on that page
[21:43] <Rocket2DMn> :)
[21:43] <mdke> I think we should, yes. Those teams aren't really used for any purpose I'm aware of
[21:43] <mdke> but we'll need to discuss it, the meeting is a perfect opportunity
[21:43] <Rocket2DMn> so they all collapse into ubuntu-doc.  I also so mention of combining ubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, etc _packages_ but didnt read in detail
[21:44] <mdke> heh
[21:44] <mdke> that's another issue yeah
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> Is that what spawned this convo?
[21:45] <Rocket2DMn> If you were to keep the separate packages, would you just have anybody in the privileged doc team be able to commit to any *-docs package?
[21:46] <Rocket2DMn> that is to say, the high level branch that becomes that package
[21:46] <mdke> let's start from the beginning
[21:46] <mdke> Launchpad distinguishes between distributions (like Ubuntu) and upstream projects
[21:47] <mdke> distributions have lots of packages
[21:47] <mdke> we currently use both packages (ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs) and an upstream project (ubuntu-doc)
[21:47] <mdke> the upstream project has previously had all our code branches on it
[21:48] <mdke> the proposal is to make lots of upstream projects which match the packages, so we'd have one upstream project for each package
[21:48] <mdke> is that relatively clear? (Launchpad is quite complicated sometimes :)
[21:49] <Rocket2DMn> yeah, i was aware of all that except that the upstream project was actually used for packages
[21:50] <Rocket2DMn> that i didnt know
[21:50] <Rocket2DMn> guess it makes sense looking at the URLs though
[21:52] <mdke> the upstream project isn't used for packages
[21:52] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, ubuntu-core-doc team is the one that can currently commit?  is it the only one?
[21:52] <mdke> but it can be linked to a package
[21:52] <Rocket2DMn> right
[21:52] <Rocket2DMn> sorry
[21:52] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: ubuntu-core-doc is the team that can commit to the branches owned by it (which is all our official ones)
[21:53] <Rocket2DMn> ok, this is what i was going to propose - http://paste.ubuntu.com/147901/
[21:55] <mdke> that's kinda already out there
[21:55] <mdke> except you've renamed the ubuntu-core-doc team
[21:56] <mdke> if we decide on the structure, we can certainly have a debate about the best naming convention
[21:57] <Rocket2DMn> Yeah, I think if we are going to re-org, we should make sure we get it right, even if that is renaming.  +1 for a good naming convention
[21:57] <mdke> the reason for using "ubuntu-core-doc" was that it is consistent with "ubuntu-core-dev", the development team
[21:57] <mdke> but I'm not particularly attached to it, although we've used it for a while so it has settled in
[21:58] <Rocket2DMn> Well, consistency is important, I don't have a problem leaving the name if it matches others
[21:58] <Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-core-wiki ?
[21:59] <Rocket2DMn> I'm not clear on privilege differences between the community docs and w.u.c
[21:59] <mdke> w.u.c is not part of our domain at all
[21:59] <Rocket2DMn> (i see your earlier email that basically matches my suggestion)
[21:59] <Rocket2DMn> ok, i thought that might be the case
[21:59] <mdke> I think the wiki team name should have "admin" in it, because it implies admin rights over the wiki
[22:00] <mdke> the ubuntu-core-doc team is different, it implies committing rights
[22:00] <mdke> phew
[22:00] <Rocket2DMn> ok, trying to match a convention
[22:00]  * mdke finishes importing and fixing all translations for Jaunty
[22:00] <Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-core-wiki-admin - or is that too long?
[22:00] <Rocket2DMn> or ubuntu-core-doc-wiki
[22:00] <mdke> I don't think the names need to follow the same convention, because they imply different privileges completely, not the same
[22:01] <mdke> as long as they are under the ubuntu-doc umbrella team, I'm happy
[22:01] <Rocket2DMn> Ok, well, cant have much of a namng convention with only 2 or 3 subteams :)
[22:03] <mdke> true
[22:04] <Rocket2DMn> Alright, well naming conventions aside, I like the email you sent this morning, I guess it would have ben at 11:54 UTC
[22:04] <mdke> I sent too many emails today :(
[22:10] <Rocket2DMn> i'll reply to it
[22:17] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, what is dougie talking about re: adding the team to bugcontrol?
[22:18] <Rocket2DMn> should core-doc already be able to have full privs over ubuntu-docs packages?
[22:18] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: ideally, it would. But the privileges in Launchpad aren't subtle enough for that
[22:19] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: the bugcontrol team is the only one with privileges over Ubuntu bugs
[22:19] <mdke> I'm negotiating a solution with bmurray, but he has some issues about the idea
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> ah, bummer you can assign a particular team full privs
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> i can see why they might be opposed though
[22:20] <mdke> it's because the bugcontrol team has the ability to see crash dumps that might have private content in them
[22:21] <Rocket2DMn> that is one potential concern
[22:22] <Rocket2DMn> i also wouldnt want to grant a member of some team with control over a single app the ability to have the same control over all packages
[22:22] <mdke> we'll see what the solution is
[22:23] <mdke> it will probably be to encourage members to join ubuntu-bugcontrol separately
[22:24] <Rocket2DMn> I think that is fair.  If you're going to give somebody the power, they should have to be approved for it like everybody else
[22:24] <Rocket2DMn> it also pushes blame away from you if a doc-team member does something stupid with other packages and the bosses come looking for the one who granted the user those privs
[23:20] <mdke> j1mc: do you have plans for importing xubuntu-docs translations?
[23:21] <j1mc> mdke: do i just export them from launchpad, and then add them to the docs? i think there's a script involved, too, right? the script that cuts them out if they aren't at least 75% complete?
[23:21] <mdke> j1mc: that's part of the packaging, you probably dont' need to worry about that bit. But there are other bits to worry about
[23:22] <j1mc> ok - any tips?
[23:22] <mdke> j1mc: what I thought we might do is invite one of the translation guys to help, he has shown a lot of interest in -docs translations recently and knows the tools well
[23:22] <j1mc> sounds great
[23:22] <mdke> j1mc: so you could work with him, if he is willing
[23:23] <j1mc> sure
[23:23] <mdke> lemme see
[23:24] <mdke> j1mc: in the meantime I'll outline the basic process
[23:25] <mdke> j1mc: step 1 is to download the translations from rosetta. Do you have a "Download" button in the middle at the top of https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs
[23:26] <j1mc> i have an 'overview / import queue' button
[23:26] <mdke> damn
[23:26] <j1mc> wait, one moment
[23:26] <j1mc> logging in...  :)
[23:26] <j1mc> no, still no download buton
[23:26] <mdke> ok, you need special privileges to download all the translations at the same time.
[23:27] <mdke> either me or adi (the guy I'm talking about) can do it
[23:27] <j1mc> ah, ok
[23:27] <mdke> anyway, the translations arrive as a tar.gz, and you export them into the branch directory
[23:28] <j1mc> i can download all of the translations for each of the individual files, though.
[23:28] <j1mc> that would take longer
[23:28] <mdke> right
[23:28] <mdke> they have cranky names, so you rename them with the script that is called scripts/hack.sh (at least in ubuntu-docs that is what the script is called)
[23:28] <mdke> then, you use the translate.sh script to build translations and find errors with them
[23:28] <j1mc> do you have to put them in any special folder before renaming them?
[23:29] <mdke> no, you untar them and they have the same folder structure as our branch
[23:29] <j1mc> e.g., in the "basic-commands" folder for ... ah, ok
[23:29] <mdke> so they slot in
[23:29] <j1mc> right
[23:29] <mdke> there are always plenty of translations with errors, because translators don't follow the rules :(
[23:30] <mdke> the most time consuming bit is to fix those
[23:30] <j1mc> ok
[23:30] <j1mc> hm
[23:30] <j1mc> and this has to be done tonight?
[23:30] <j1mc> it's ok if it does... i'm just asking
[23:30] <mdke> j1mc: no, not necessarily. In theory, it would have been done today but things are generally a lot more flexible
[23:30] <mdke> I've often done them the weekend following the freeze
[23:30] <j1mc> ok
[23:30] <mdke> especially for xubuntu-docs (universe) it should be flexible
[23:30] <j1mc> right
[23:31]  * mdke checks out the xubuntu-docs branch
[23:31] <mdke> hmm, the directory structure is a bit different to ubuntu-docs
[23:32] <mdke> the translation script might need some work to accomodate that
[23:32] <j1mc> grr, yes.  um, someone switched them without consulting me.
[23:32] <mdke> I guess it was easier than fixing the packaging to fit the directory structure
[23:33] <j1mc> :/
[23:33] <j1mc> the docs were in the other format for the last release, though.  at least i think they were.
[23:33] <mdke> we'll fix them for karmic
[23:33] <j1mc> right
[23:33] <mdke> I really like what you've been saying about xubuntu and ubuntu getting closer
[23:34] <j1mc> cool.  glad to hear it.
[23:35] <mdke> so, where did we get to about translations
[23:35] <mdke> the translate.sh script
[23:35] <mdke> that takes po files and turns them into xml
[23:36] <mdke> then validates the xml to output any errors
[23:36] <j1mc> untarring them, and getting them into the right folder
[23:36] <mdke> oh, have you downloaded some already?
[23:36] <j1mc> correcting the validation errors... that's just like correcting regular validation errors, right?
[23:36] <j1mc> no, i don't have the docs yet
[23:36] <j1mc> or, the translations yet
[23:37] <mdke> j1mc: exactly, yes
[23:37] <nhandler> mdke: I asked j1mc what the procedure was for becoming a member of the core-doc team. He only knew what he did to gain membership. We were also unable to find a wiki page explaining this. I know you are meant to contribute and demonstrate your abilities/knowledge, but then what? Do you apply on irc/mailing list? Do you wait for a meeting? Do you have to be no
[23:37] <mdke> nhandler: that cut off after "to be no"
[23:38] <mdke> nhandler: but the procedure is to send a few decent size patches which get reviewed positively, and then ask :)
[23:38]  * nhandler curses mibbit
[23:38] <nhandler> mdke: Do you just ask on IRC? Or do you have to ask at a meeting?
[23:39] <mdke> nhandler: in any medium
[23:39] <nhandler> mdke: Ok, thanks a lot. This should probably be mentioned on the wiki somewhere
[23:40] <mdke> nhandler: yes, I agree. I think the process should be a lot clearer
[23:41] <j1mc> mdke: will it take a while to get translations downloaded for xubuntu docs?
[23:41] <mdke> j1mc: I'm still waiting for the email
[23:41] <j1mc> i'm not quite sure how i'll get them.  ah, ok.
[23:42] <mdke> I'll send you a link when it arrives
[23:42] <j1mc> ok
[23:42] <mdke> then you can play around with them, and we'll speak again maybe tomorrow - nearly bed time here
[23:42] <j1mc> yeah, it takes a bit to generate them.  it used to take longer, if i recall correctly.
[23:43] <j1mc> nhandler: thanks for the suggestion about the wiki, and for bringing up the topic. :)
[23:43] <mdke> it takes a hell of a long time yeah
[23:44] <j1mc> mdke: yeah, that sounds fine - if you can just send me the link when you get it, that would be great.
[23:44]  * mdke nods
[23:44] <mdke> I couldn't get hold of adi
[23:44] <mdke> but I'll send him an email and copy you in
[23:44] <j1mc> ok
[23:50] <mdke> j1mc: ok, YGM. I'll catch you tomorrow, maybe over email
[23:50] <j1mc> YGM?
[23:50] <j1mc> sounds good.  have a good rest
[23:50] <mdke> (you got mail)
[23:50] <mdke> cya
[23:51] <j1mc> got it.  the link works.  :)  later.