[00:43] <JontheEchidna> grr, why does kdenetwork always have things like bug 358792 happening..
[00:43]  * JontheEchidna investigates
[00:43] <ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/358792/+text)
[00:43] <JontheEchidna> bah
[00:53] <Nightrose> kb9vqf: concratulations - respect for pulling this of!
[00:53] <Nightrose> bah /me can't type today
[00:54] <kb9vqf> Nightrose: Thanks!  (and I've had days when I couldn't type as well...remember my first meeting :-P)
[00:54] <Nightrose> hehe
[00:54]  * kb9vqf is glad that KDE3.5 is back on the menu
[00:54] <kb9vqf> Nightrose: 173 hits on the Wiki so far :-)
[00:54] <Nightrose> very nice
[01:19] <ryanakca> nixternal: around?
[01:28] <nixternal> ryanakca: I am lying in bed, looking at irssi on my TV, as I fell quite ill today...can we move the meeting until tomorrow or this weekend by chance?
[01:30] <ryanakca> nixternal: I'm off to Montreal, we have a long weekned over here (Easter), not sure what time I'll be back, some time Sunday or Monday. Do you have a template that'll be used when you generate the content or what? If it's a template, just email me a link to it's bzr branch and I'll get to it whenever I get back
[01:34] <claydoh> apachelogger: belated plong
[01:46] <_Groo_> hi/2 all
[01:46] <_Groo_> any motu alive?
[01:50] <_Groo_> im having trouble with java and webkit
[01:56] <_Groo_> aparently the java plugin (sun) doesnt work with bot libwebkit and qt 4.5. both midori and arora cant run the plugin, midori says is misses a symbol
[02:40] <_Groo_> eya all
[02:43] <_Groo_> any motu alive?
[02:56] <_Groo_> hi JontheEchidna
[02:56] <JontheEchidna> hi
[02:57] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: jon can you confirm a bug in kubuntu for me? both arora and midori cant run any java applet. aparently they bork in the java plugin with a symbol error message
[02:58] <JontheEchidna> got a java webpage handy?
[02:58] <_Groo_> it works in opera, konqueror and firefox
[02:58] <_Groo_> www.javatester.org
[02:58] <_Groo_> you will see that it works in every browser, except midori and arora.
[02:59] <_Groo_> if you open midori and open the plugins sidebar you will see it fails because of missing symbol
[02:59] <JontheEchidna> oh, I must have uninstalled it
[02:59] <_Groo_> at least gentoo users say they both work with java, so i believe something is wrong with our beloved ubuntu :)
[02:59] <_Groo_> im using sun java btw
[03:00] <JontheEchidna> ok, just installed sun-java6-plugin
[03:01] <JontheEchidna> I don't see anything java-y on that webpage
[03:02] <_Groo_> which browser did you use to open it?
[03:03] <JontheEchidna> arora
[03:03]  * JontheEchidna will use firefox as a control subject
[03:03] <_Groo_> do you see a "test the version of java your browser is using"?
[03:03] <JontheEchidna> no pink rectangle in arora :(
[03:04] <_Groo_> it will send you to http://www.javatester.org/version.html
[03:04] <JontheEchidna> there is one in firefox, no relevant errors for arora
[03:04] <_Groo_> exactly.. it works in konki, firefox and opera.. no arora, no midori, no webkit whatsoever
[03:04] <_Groo_> but gentoo users say it works
[03:04] <_Groo_> if you open midori and go to plugins it will show:
[03:05] <_Groo_> undefined symbol: PR_getcurrenthread
[03:05] <_Groo_> in he java plugin .so
[03:06] <JontheEchidna> I am guessing that it is a webkit bug, since midori (WebKit) and arora (Qt-ported webkit) both share the bug
[03:06] <_Groo_> since arora doesnt appear to dump anything, it might be a similar problem
[03:06] <_Groo_> why it works in fedora/gentoo then?
[03:06] <JontheEchidna> maybe they have a patch that we don't? I dunno
[03:06] <_Groo_> midori uses libwebkit, arora uses qt webkit...
[03:06] <_Groo_> hmmm
[03:07] <JontheEchidna> Yeah, and the fact that it occurs with two separate webkit libs leaves it very unlikely that we're breakign something
[03:07] <JontheEchidna> I would think
[03:07] <_Groo_> btw can you do a unrelated test?
[03:07] <JontheEchidna> sure
[03:07] <_Groo_> could you please install webkitpart and open a flash and java page using the webkit view in konqueror?
[03:08]  * JontheEchidna wonders if it still reverts to khtml every time you visit a new link in konq like it used to
[03:09] <_Groo_> yes it does
[03:09] <_Groo_> if you want to use webkit every time you still need to change the default viewer in kde settings
[03:09] <JontheEchidna> yeah, that's a bit of a pain
[03:10] <JontheEchidna> ok, flash is busted
[03:10] <_Groo_> its behind a white/black layer right?
[03:10] <JontheEchidna> white
[03:11] <JontheEchidna> java doesn't work either, no layer
[03:11] <_Groo_> ok, could you add that behaviour to bug 188706 in bugs.kde.org?
[03:11] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 188706 in ubiquity "Kubunto Installation on Usb-HD failed" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/188706
[03:12] <_Groo_> i opened the bug, but the devs insists it works for them.. so if you could abide by my bug it will pressure them to at least check it out
[03:12] <JontheEchidna> eek, our version is a tad bit old
[03:12] <JontheEchidna> svn of two months ago almost
[03:12] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: no problem, that bug still exists with latest svn.. im using my own svn packages
[03:12] <JontheEchidna> ok
[03:13] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: can you hear any sound when running the white flash?
[03:13] <JontheEchidna> I didn't have the sound on
[03:13] <lex79> JontheEchidna: your system monitor temperature shows fahrenheit or centigrades?
[03:14] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: cause the flash runs, if you go to youtube for ex, you can hear the sound, just not the video :P annoying
[03:14] <JontheEchidna> I can't hear anything on youtube
[03:15] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: do you hear if you use firefox for ex? or konki with default khtml?
[03:15] <JontheEchidna> lex79: I actually can't test, my CPU doesn't have any temp sensors
[03:16] <JontheEchidna> _Groo_: yes, sound does work with firefox and khtml
[03:16] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: ok, so with latest svn sound works, but video is borked
[03:16] <_Groo_> for us anyway.. for them all works.. did you read my bug report?
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> lex79: I am thinking that this change in behavior is caused by https://launchpad.net/bugs/224461
[03:17] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 224461 in kdebase-workspace "Date, Time, Currency ... not in locale format" [Critical,Fix released]
[03:17] <lex79> JontheEchidna: ok, but...USA -> fahrenheit ?
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> yes
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> I think USA is one of the only countries still using it
[03:17] <JontheEchidna> _Groo_: heh, konq just crashed switching back to khtml
[03:18] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: ok jon, thanks for all your help :) im gonna dinner now
[03:18] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: that was fixed with latest svn..
[03:18] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: now you can switch at ease
[03:18] <lex79> ok, now in my system, locale is set to US but temperature shows in centigrades.... uhmmm
[03:18] <JontheEchidna> O.o
[03:19] <lex79> maybe I have to reboot :)
[03:21]  * JontheEchidna has to go for the night
[03:57] <shtylman> Riddell: while im working on the installer: I have notices that for 800x600 screens it doesn't always fit...is this something I should look into??
[03:57] <shtylman> *noticed
[05:13] <shtylman> Riddell: lp:~shtylman/ubiquity/timezone_hover <-- requested city on hover feature complete
[05:38] <daskreech> kb9vqf: ping
=== rgreening_ is now known as rgreening
[06:20] <kb9vqf> dascreech: belated pong
[06:21] <kb9vqf> daskreech: belated pong
[06:21] <daskreech> hi I moved (and accidentlyremoved 1 of )  the isos
[06:21] <kb9vqf> daskreech: ?
[06:22] <daskreech> I started the torrent again and I only see one seeder
[06:22] <kb9vqf> daskreech: that should be me...is it not working?
[06:22] <daskreech> did you pull down your torrent?
[06:22] <daskreech> oh no the seeder is me
[06:22] <daskreech>  Before i saw 2 seeders
[06:22] <kb9vqf> daskreech: ohh...are you using the latest torrent files from apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages?
[06:22] <daskreech> Yes
[06:22] <daskreech> Wel
[06:22] <kb9vqf> daskreech: so the tracker is www.pearsoncomputing.net?
[06:23] <daskreech> I don't know if it's latest
[06:23] <daskreech> Lets try again
[06:23] <kb9vqf> daskreech: if the tracker is pearsoncomputing.net then they are the latest
[06:23] <kb9vqf> I had to update the files to get rid of the disallowed ubuntu.com tracker
[06:26] <daskreech> ok
[06:27] <kb9vqf> so they're working now?
[06:31] <kb9vqf> daskreech: I'm not seeing any network traffic...are the torrents down on my end?
[06:32] <daskreech> *shrugs* What's your reading of peers?
[06:33] <kb9vqf> daskreech: Exactly none.  Weird.
[06:33] <kb9vqf> daskreech: Were you able to connect to the tracker OK?
[06:34] <daskreech> My tracker info says that I have been last updated Never
[06:34] <daskreech>  Will update in 4 minutes
[06:34] <daskreech> Lets see
[06:34] <kb9vqf> daskreech: OK, I'll wait :)
[06:40] <kb9vqf> daskreech: soo....do I have tracker or torrent problems?
[06:42] <daskreech> not sure
[06:42] <daskreech> It worked yesterday In KDE
[06:42] <daskreech> :-(
[06:42] <daskreech> Anyone awake?
[06:43] <daskreech> a|wen_:  Hi
[06:55] <a|wen_> hi daskreech
[06:56]  * kb9vqf waves back
[06:56] <kb9vqf> daskreech: do you have something announcing the status of the tracker itself?
[06:56] <kb9vqf> daskreech: maybe I'll try to connect from a different machine
[06:57] <daskreech> I'm getting someone else to try download it
[06:57] <daskreech> to see if it's me
[07:02] <kb9vqf> daskreech: hmm...I see another peer, but it looks like my upload is broken
[07:02] <daskreech> Ok that would be the person testing
[07:06] <kb9vqf> daskreech: Restarted ktorrent and the i386 upload is working
[07:06] <kb9vqf> :-)
[07:06] <daskreech> Ha Ok
[07:06] <kb9vqf> I must have blocked a port by accident while testing the tracker
[07:06] <daskreech> hmm ok
[07:06] <kb9vqf> I assume the amd64 version is working as well?
[07:06] <daskreech> Nope doesn't seem to be
[07:12] <daskreech> I don't know if it makes a difference but he is using Ktorrent as well
[07:19] <daskreech> Ktorrent 2.25
[07:31] <kb9vqf> daskreech: I'll look into it tomorrow
[07:31]  * kb9vqf goes off to be
[07:31]  * kb9vqf goes off to bed
[07:31] <daskreech> ok
[07:31] <daskreech> night
[08:26] <slangasek> I notice that the bug list for plasma-widget-network-manager suggests that there are quite a few types of network configurations that don't actually work in jaunty - is there common underlying problem that accounts for these, or are they strange corner cases or something?  is any work being done yet on the NM integration for jaunty?
=== blizzzek is now known as blizzz
[09:13] <Quintasan> bug 358415
[09:13] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 358415 in yakuake "Yakuake crashes when changing height in the Yakuake menu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/358415
[09:13] <Quintasan> anyone knows what may cause it?
[10:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: hi, bug 103394 is back
[10:45] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 103394 in kdelibs "broken translations in Kubuntu Feisty (daily langpack)" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/103394
[10:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: same as bug 42323...
[10:45] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 42323 in kdelibs "KDE applications mix translations in menus" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42323
[10:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: seems to be the same problem, and I guess you may know how to fix... seems pretty high issue so close to the release...
[10:47] <Tonio_> Riddell: the exact same behavior here, some options in the menus are translated some not.....
=== fregl__ is now known as fregl
[12:45] <Lure> Riddell: will kipi-plugins get into jaunty or not likely?
[13:27] <seele> agateau: ping
[13:28] <agateau> seele: pong
[13:28] <seele> agateau: hi!
[13:28] <seele> you did a lot of gwenview in the past year.. would you be interested in talking about it at akademy?
[13:28] <seele> we would really like to get more kde application talks in
[13:29] <agateau> mmm, not sure what I could say
[13:29] <seele> maybe walk people through some of the features, talk about the hard to code parts, anything cool you did ..
[13:31] <agateau> it's not really an application which aims to be full of features :) i spend a lot of time saying people i won't implement this or that :)
[13:32] <seele> see, but i think that would be interesting to hear about too
[13:32] <seele> but then again, i'm a designer and push for those sorts of things :)
[13:32] <seele> it would be a good example of remaining focused on design and development goals
[13:33] <agateau> seele: will think about it, but don't hold your breath :)
[13:33] <seele> agateau: hehe, ok. that is the best i can hope for :)
[13:35] <agateau> seele: while you are available: did you have some time to have a look at the toolbar editor i mailed you about?
[13:35] <seele> agateau: ugh.. forgot about it in the excitement of planning akademy and sou
[13:35] <seele> i have a meeting in an hour i need to leave for.. i'll try to look at it this weekend
[13:36] <seele> otherwise ping me on monday.. sorry :(
[13:36] <agateau> seele: hehe, too many things to do, I can feel your pain :)
[13:47] <JontheEchidna> eek
[13:47] <JontheEchidna> kde-style-qtcurve lacks a Messages.sh
[14:25] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: bug 359060, turns out that last release I forgot to extract strings from the .ui files
[14:25] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 359060 in plasma-widget-quickaccess "New upstream bugfix release (0.7.4)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359060
[14:32] <jussi01> hrm, does kopete msn not work for everyne or is it just me?
[14:33] <jjesse> JontheEchidna: in regards to your weather applet, whenever i set my appearance to weather all i get is a dark blue no pictures background
[14:33] <jussi01> says its online, but no contacts or anything...
[14:38] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: could you start plasma in the console and pastebin the log please?
[14:38] <jjesse> JontheEchidna: sure, just kill plasma, then launch it from konsole?
[14:39] <JontheEchidna> kquitapp plasma would be better than kill
[14:41] <jjesse> JontheEchidna: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/148359/
[14:42] <JontheEchidna> hmm...
[14:42] <jjesse> i wonder if the problem is the smae for the lcd weather applet where if wireless connection comes active after the desktop is loaded, so i have to right click on the lcd weather applet then click on lcd weather stations for it to update once i have network connection?
[14:43] <JontheEchidna> does plasma-widget-weather work?
[14:43] <jjesse> that's the lcd weather applet?
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> it's a different one
[14:44] <jjesse> wasn't installed
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> lcd weather is part of kdeplasma-addons
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> Yeah, it won't work if you don't have a connection at startup
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> btw, what version of the wallpaper do you have?
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> In 0.2.1 I made it use the Air wallpaper if the internet wasn't available on startup
[14:44] <jjesse> the .deb from kde-look.org
[14:45] <JontheEchidna> apt-cache policy plasma-wallpaper-weather should say
[14:45] <jjesse> .2-0ubuntu1~kdelook2 0
[14:46] <JontheEchidna> There's an updated deb at kde-look
[14:47] <JontheEchidna> Unfortunately you won't be able to have actual weather until 30 minutes after you get an internet connection at this point :(
[14:47] <JontheEchidna> But at least you will have a wallpaper instead of blue
[14:48]  * JontheEchidna out for 20 or so mins
[14:50] <jjesse> ok
[15:12]  * kb9vqf waves
[15:16] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: ping
[15:19] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: pong
[15:21] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: I've made a *.desktop file for starfighter (bug 357894) and it fails to copy it using install -m 0644 in debian/rules and starfighter.install. What should I do?
[15:21] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 357894 in starfighter "[Jaunty] menu entry missing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/357894
[15:23] <JontheEchidna> you could add it via quilt I suppose
[15:23] <JontheEchidna> quilt new kubuntu_01_add_desktop_file
[15:24] <JontheEchidna> quilt add code/starfighter.desktop
[15:24] <JontheEchidna> place your .desktop in /code
[15:24] <JontheEchidna> quilt refresh
[15:24] <JontheEchidna> That's how I'd do it
[15:26] <JontheEchidna> er, maybe not name the patch kubuntu_* unless it's a kubuntu-ish package :P
[15:27]  * JontheEchidna names all his patches that out of habit
[15:28] <JontheEchidna> ooh, amarok beta
[15:28] <JontheEchidna> yay, the music progress bar and volume bar aren't grey!
[15:29] <JontheEchidna> damn, we need packages in kubuntu-experimental
[15:29] <JontheEchidna> but I also have a stack of broken things to fix :(
[15:31] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: thanks
[15:31] <nhandler> Hey JontheEchidna
[15:31] <JontheEchidna> hi
[15:32] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: you're welcome
[15:32] <nhandler> JontheEchidna: A Kubuntu issue came up at the release meeting: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plasma-widget-network-manager
[15:32] <nhandler> They are concerned about the number of issues regarding encrypted wireless
[15:33] <JontheEchidna> yeah, that's a bit disappointing...
[15:33] <nhandler> Have we gone through them to see how many are duplicates?
[15:33] <JontheEchidna> Not so much
[15:34] <JontheEchidna> All of the ones that have importances set should be pretty much triaged
[15:34] <nhandler> Yeah, a lot have a status of Triaged as well
[15:34] <JontheEchidna> yup, all the triaged ones should have confirmed upstream bugs linked to them
[15:34] <rickspencer3> mostly undecided, new though
[15:35] <JontheEchidna> yeah, the undecided ones haven't been touched by me or probably anyone else
[15:35] <nhandler> rickspencer3: I'm hoping that a lot of the undecided new bugs are duplicates
[15:35] <nhandler> However, I have not looked at them
[15:42] <JontheEchidna> We could possibly upload a new svn revision, but that would result in a big "Eff you" to all of our various freezes...
[15:42] <JontheEchidna> Quite possibly in violation of all freezes
[15:42] <JontheEchidna> :P
[15:43] <JontheEchidna> It'd introduce new strings, features and user interface changes
[15:44] <nhandler> JontheEchidna: I think the first thing we should do is triage the bugs to see how many different issues there are. Then, we can see how many of them have been fixed in SVN
[15:44] <rickspencer3> JontheEchidna: if it would help, I could see if we could put one of the bugs on the release team's radar
[15:44] <rickspencer3> and then if you decide that it's worth the risk, they would be inclined to accept the change?
[15:45] <rickspencer3> in general, does the kubuntu team feel that this is a critical issue? How badly will our users be impacted if we ship with what we have?
[15:45] <JontheEchidna> the plasmoid vs the kde3 systray applet is sort of a "pick your poison" decision, unfortunately
[15:45] <nhandler> I really don't think we can judge how severe the issue is without determining how many different "issues" there are. The number of bug reports really does not mean much
[15:46] <JontheEchidna> knetworkmanager was barely ported to NM 0.7 and is severely crippled compared to its functionality in the NM 0.6 days
[15:46] <JontheEchidna> plus connections other than DHCP won't work (meaning static IP's are broken)
[15:47] <rickspencer3> so Kubuntu users will have to connect with a plasmoid?
[15:47] <rickspencer3> or use the GNOME NM?
[15:47] <rickspencer3> (if they have a static IP)
[15:47] <rickspencer3> ?
[15:47] <JontheEchidna> if they want to use a static IP (DHCP is fine most of the time) then yes
[15:48] <JontheEchidna> of course knetworkmanager also has 100 other misc bugs
[15:48] <JontheEchidna> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/knetworkmanager/+bugs?search=Search
[15:48] <rickspencer3> would it be possible for someone to assess the overall criticality of the Kubuntu NM issue, and let me know if you think a freeze exception would help?
[15:49] <JontheEchidna> hmm
[15:49] <rickspencer3> it seems that having problems connecting to a password protected wireless network is pretty bad
[15:49] <rickspencer3> would be worth an exception if we could fix it
[15:50] <JontheEchidna> yes, if we could, definitely
[15:52]  * kb9vqf prefers the gnome nm-applet overall, and wonders if it could be shipped instead of knetworkmanager
[15:53] <rickspencer3> JontheEchidna: could someone let me know Monday or Tuesday if you want to go that route?
[15:53] <JontheEchidna> sure
[15:53] <rickspencer3> cool
[15:54] <rickspencer3> let me know if there is anything else I might do to help
[15:54] <JontheEchidna> ooh, I spot a duplicate
[15:54] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna: should we try to have the meeting on monday to discuss this?
[15:55] <JontheEchidna> I think we're already scheduling a meeting
[15:55]  * JontheEchidna points to topic
[15:55] <Nightrose> yes
[15:55] <JontheEchidna> but it should definitely be on the agenda
[15:55] <Nightrose> but we could just say it is going to be monday
[15:55] <Nightrose> so we have a decision by tuesday
[15:55] <JontheEchidna> oh, that might be a good idea
[15:55] <Nightrose> can you send an email to the list?
[15:56] <Nightrose> explaining why
[15:56] <JontheEchidna> ok
[16:15] <Quintasan> argh, I'm doing something wrong :/
[16:40] <Quintasan> oh lol
[16:53] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: Can you check this? http://hs.quintasan.pl/starfighter_1.1-7ubuntu1.debdiff
[17:54] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: looking
[17:55] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: I believe the general policy is to not change the Standards Version of a package from Debian, and to let them change it when necessary
[17:56] <JontheEchidna> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Standards-Version
[17:58] <JontheEchidna> Also, at least in the copy of the debdiff on your server, your name in the debian/changelog entry looks broken (UTF characters, or the lack thereof)
=== rgreening_ is now known as rgreening
[18:31] <daskreech> Big fan of !kubuntu and all, but adopting a default network-manager ignorant of hidden SSIDs is epic fail. here's hoping final brings a fix.
[18:33] <daskreech> Random dent
=== rgreening_ is now known as rgreening
=== firephoto_ is now known as firephoto
[19:36] <shtylman> can anyone tell me the official kubuntu blue rgb value? at least the one most commonly used?
=== rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk
[20:23] <shtylman> Riddell: I also did a bugfix for #358519, but after that I noticed that the gtk guys changed up the frontend for autopartitioning a bit (using a combo box for the full disk options), you would like me to change the kde side to match?
[20:27] <jussi01> shtylman: its curious, Im very suprised the info about colours isnt on the wiki, the ubuntu colours are, just not the kubuntu ones :/
[21:05] <shtylman> jussi01: indeed
=== rickspencer3-afk is now known as rickspencer3
=== Nightrose_ is now known as Nightrose
=== blizzzek is now known as blizzz
[22:27] <blizzz> JontheEchidna: are you around?
[23:25] <Riddell> yo
[23:26] <Riddell> up in the highlands this weekend
[23:28] <blizzz> Riddell: did you read the mails about the meeting? shall we pick the day by vote or monday becuase of the freeze exception?
[23:35] <Riddell> i'm away on monday
[23:35] <Riddell> which doesn't mean you cannae
[23:35] <Riddell> but on nm plasmoid i don't think svn is any better
[23:37] <blizzz> so we keep on the poll (if i got it right)
=== seele_ is now known as seele