[18:07] <joey> so kfogel
[18:07] <joey> I want to start using this channel!
[18:07] <joey> :-D
[19:05] <kfogel> joey: I've been thinking about that, but I'm not sure how it's practical before open-sourcing.
[19:05] <kfogel> But we can certainly have the meta-conversation in this channel!
[19:06] <kfogel> Basically, the internal company channel has a very wide topic spread -- lots of confidential stuff is said among the purely technical stuff.  And even most of the technical stuff is meaningless w/o access to the launchpad code.
[19:07]  * joey nods.
[19:10] <kfogel> Any ideas?
[19:10] <kfogel> I think if we prod people to have their discussions over here right now, it'll last until the first time they need to talk about something non-public.
[19:11] <kfogel> when we get external developer, now that's when this channel starts becoming important.  I think the main thing is, post-open-sourcing, to require that people at least be logged in here & addressable during core hours.
[19:12] <kfogel> Then we'll set the channel topic to instruct outside contributors to ping a random name if they don't know anyone :-).
[19:13] <kfogel> Hi, mat_t.
[21:43] <joey> kfogel, well I think it would force us to be more open if we could at least move topics of conversation here for those things which are already public.
[21:43] <joey> kfogel, it's not really easy to do in some cases since there is a lot of integration
[21:44] <joey> kfogel, I was hoping we'd make a big "do" about the stuff as it lands and encourage conversation about it here
[21:46] <kfogel> joey: when we have some kind of critical mass.  Trouble is, we're kind of opening all at once, except for things like LAZR etc -- but those things wouldn't really be talked about here either, because they're independent projects.  Only when their use in the Launchpad code is the topic would talking about them here be the thing to do.
[21:48] <joey> kfogel, well that's an interesting statement
[21:48] <kfogel> do expound...
[21:48] <joey> kfogel, we have opened csvcs for example... and then lazr and other things to come. It would be nice to have an irc home for them so folks could come, feel welcomed, and participate.
[21:48] <kfogel> joey: now, API talk, *that* cuold happen here!
[21:49] <joey> and API talk I suppose
[21:49] <joey> although API's are probably a help question which is #launchpad
[21:49] <joey> kfogel, just so you know, I don't have any answers... I'm just thinking out loud :-)
[21:50] <kfogel> joey: for example, with the lazr stuff, we made a deliberate decision not to put it in some kind of "launchpad.*" namespace.
[21:50] <joey> kfogel, right.
[21:50] <joey> kfogel, but without any sort of community wrapper around it, it's just there for show
[21:50] <joey> kfogel, how do we get a community around it?
[21:51] <joey> kfogel, my initial pondering is... can we not use #launchpad and #launchpad-dev?
[21:51] <kfogel> we announce it in the right places, see who's using it, encourage its use where it would fit
[21:51] <joey> I'd like for us to lead the community rather than someone from say Red Hat take it, fork it, and then have a big and active dev forum around it
[21:51] <kfogel> I guess I'm saying, community starts with people being motivated to use the code.  *Then* if they need an IRC channel, they'll create one, or come looking here.  But the lazr people are not necessarily the same audience as future launchpad contributors.
[21:52] <kfogel> That's a good point... is there a danger of that happening?
[21:52] <joey> I agree with the lazr vs LP stuff
[21:52] <kfogel> I mean, they're not going to fork unless it's worth forking, and if it's worth forking, we'll already see the community around it using it.
[21:52] <joey> no more danger than anything else I suspect.
[21:52] <kfogel> joey: you're at TLsprint in London right?
[21:53] <joey> nope. I'm home this week
[21:53] <joey> I've been super busy with my temporary job to do the TL stuff
[21:53] <joey> which is why I'm only now thinking of this :-D
[21:53] <joey> If I was on LP full time I'd have already talked your ear off on all this stuff
[21:54] <joey> kfogel, In thinking about this more.... I think I'm sort of triggering off of attitudes
[21:54] <joey> like....
[21:54] <joey> I'd rather get people excited, use, and improve the software
[21:55] <joey> vs just dump it over the fence for some show of good faith
[21:55] <joey> the former of course requires some sort of manpower to do it
[21:55] <joey> unless someone from the community (like wgrant or ScottK for example) decide it's something they want to help with
[21:55] <kfogel> Well, I think we're doing more than just dumping the stuff over the fence.  AFAIK, the lazr stuff is registered in Pypi, and we've been making noises about it in the appropriate places.
[21:56] <kfogel> And all these things are registered in launchpad, so there are binding surfaces for a community to attach to, if they're going to form.
[21:56] <kfogel> e.g., mailing list, bug tracker, etc
[21:56] <kfogel> (though lp mailnig lists can be hard to find, sigh)
[21:57] <joey> Yeah, I concede you have a point there with the existing LP features
[21:57] <kfogel> Community won't form because we want it to form; it'll form because *it* wants to form.  It may just be that the number of people who find these packages useful is not large enough (yet?).
[21:57] <joey> So I would have agreed with you there if it wasn't for cscvs
[21:58] <kfogel> joey: oh?
[21:58] <kfogel> tell me more
[21:58] <joey> so https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs
[21:58] <joey> svn to bzr mirroring tool
[21:58] <joey> it's been open for a few years now
[21:59] <joey> afaik, nobody uses it
[21:59] <joey> You'd think someone might use it....
[21:59] <joey> but perhaps not
[21:59] <joey> we're still the only ones hacking on it
[21:59] <kfogel> oh, I know what it is... but aren't people using bzr-svn for that?
[21:59] <kfogel> I mean, how many sites have the kind of mirroring need we have?
[21:59] <kfogel> very few, I think.
[21:59] <joey> for imports yes
[22:00] <joey> we use cscvs for mirroring though
[22:00] <kfogel> there are many people who want to use bzr client to talk to an svn repos, but that's totally different.
[22:00] <joey> e.g. an svn branch on sourceforge
[22:00] <joey> My only point though with cscvs is that I don't know how many people actually know it exists and that it is GPL
[22:01]  * kfogel pokes around bazaar-vcs.org
[22:01] <kfogel> http://bazaar-vcs.org/?action=fullsearch&context=180&fullsearch=Text&value=cscvs&go=go
[22:01] <joey> actually I think mbt uses it
[22:01] <kfogel> joey: hit that url and weep
[22:01] <joey> :-)
[22:01] <joey> 0
[22:03] <joey> so Karl it seems the only thing that we may want/need to do them is to ensure any of those projects that we turn loose have mailing lists
[22:03] <joey> turned on
[22:03] <joey> so that we give the community a chance to form.
[22:03] <kfogel> we at least want to do that, good point
[22:03] <kfogel> (re cscvs: sigh, so let's look at this naming from an outsider's perspective:
[22:04] <kfogel> a tool that mirrors svn to bzr, and it's called cscvs.  But actually, our version (which does bzr) is called "launchpad-cscvs", not even "bzr-cscvs", because we happened to use it for launchpad).
[22:04] <joey> if you're looking for a new name for cscvs you could ask rockstar who is very intimate with the code although I don't know if he's on speaking terms with it :-)
[22:04] <kfogel> yeah how about "svn-bzr-mirror" or something really wild like that?
[22:05] <kfogel> I mean sheesh :-)
[22:06] <kfogel> so, one sec
[22:06] <joey> how about "cornpuffs"
[22:06] <joey> :-)
[22:08] <kfogel> https://wiki.canonical.com/OpenSource/Process mentions the mailing list thing now
[22:08] <kfogel> (people seem to actually be following that doc, so this might -- _might_ -- have an effect.)
[22:09] <joey> yeah, that looks good
[22:10] <joey> do we have an equivalent on the dev wiki for the community? maybe we don't need one
[22:15] <kfogel> the division of information between the internal and the dev wiki is a little awkward right now
[22:15] <kfogel> unavoidably -- we have to either duplicate information, or have enigmatic references
[22:16] <kfogel> joey: here's a question: why don't we create a mailnig list *automatically*?
[22:16] <kfogel> when you create a project, you get a bug tracker, and code hosting, and you don't have to do anything special...
[22:29] <kfogel> joey: so, the cscvs home page recommends a mailing list already -- bazaar's!
[22:30] <kfogel> and presumably #bzr would be the IRC channel, therefore
[22:30] <kfogel> though it doesn't say
[22:31] <joey> kfogel, It sure makes sense
[22:31] <joey> but I think we didn't initially because we weren't sure how much the servers could handle
[22:31] <joey> maybe we're passed that.
[22:31] <joey> barry would be the guy to ask I guess
[22:32] <kfogel> I'll ask him
[22:35] <joey> kfogel, I think one of the issues is that besides kiko and myself, there hasn't been a whole lot of thought to community building.
[22:35] <joey> hence you kfogel :-)
[22:35] <kfogel> yes :-)
[22:36] <joey> I know a lot of people are interested in it...but we have other work to do
[22:36] <kfogel> joey: the thing is, with the stuff we're releasing right now, it's not all one community -- it's spread across many communities, some of which already exist and have their own thing going on.  When we open source lp, then we really have to build a community ourselves.
[22:36]  * joey nods in agreement.
[22:40]  * joey goes on the offensive.....
[22:40] <joey> ScottK, wgrant - I have a special assignment for you. :-)
[22:41] <joey> ScottK, wgrant - Make noise on the launchpad-users list please about the need for an opensourcing party at OSCON :-)
[23:58] <wgrant> joey: I think the reason that nobody has touched cscvs is that the code is old and not very nice to look at and breaks frequently and we have bzr-svn already.
[23:58] <wgrant> I tried to have a look around at one point, but ran away fairly quickly.