[02:45] <ScottK> jdstrand: Sounds good.  Got it.
[02:52] <gopogo> jaunty has same look and feel as the 10 ubuntu before it :-(
[02:53] <gopogo> makes it boring
[02:54] <Milosz> it's in the details
[02:54] <directhex> gopogo, all three new themes are the same as Human?
[02:55] <directhex> http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-themes-in-ubuntu-904-jaunty.html
[02:55] <Milosz> also consistency is better than useless change (where something can still change and be consistent, but you don't want to reinvent the entire thing each time)
[02:55] <gopogo> specially when mark said that OS X usability was the gold standard
[02:57] <gopogo> i dont like the dark themes makes it difficult to read menu items
[03:00] <gopogo> new notification system is really great congrats guys !
[03:00] <jdong> yeah, it's pretty :)
[03:01] <jdong> and I like the idea of the "notification center" too for messaging
[03:01] <ScottK> jdong: How are you on not getting notified for up to a week about new updates?
[03:01] <gopogo> is it inspired by Growl in Os X
[03:02] <Milosz> It seems like an own invention to me and it's great
[03:02] <gopogo> only thing I not found working was wep support in wifi
[03:02] <jdong> gopogo: by "inspired" you mean a clone of, right? ;-)
[03:03] <jdong> but yeah Growl is the first thing that came to mind.
[03:03] <Milosz> Can't be praised enough that they did this, maybe you can argue whether the system itself as it turned out is good or not (I think it is, but just as not to take a stance here), but the fact they did it based on an own idea is fantastic
[03:03] <jdong> ScottK: I don't like it; that's definitely going to get some reworking here locally....
[03:03] <ScottK> jdong: Yes.  Fortunately it's just a gconf change.
[03:03] <jdong> ScottK: I'm still disappointed that unlike Kubuntu, the GNOME stack still doesn't use packagekit for updating
[03:04] <jdong> primarily I'm interested in PolicyKit
[03:04] <jdong> being able to preauthorize users to do system updates
[03:04] <ScottK> I'd prefer something more mature myself, but none of the KDE options were particularly appealing.
[03:05] <ScottK> Neither Adept (the other choice) nor Kpackagekit complain about unverified packages which IMO makes them unsuitable for actual use, but I got outvoted.
[03:05] <jdong> that's disappointing.
[03:05] <jdong> I guess we NEED someone to launch a package poisoning attack before people get the point...
[03:06] <ScottK> The KDE3 version of Adept did, so it's a significant regression in my opinion.
[03:06] <ScottK> Agreed.
[03:07] <jdong> considering that deb packages are instant root access, I would expect that to be considered a pretty serious problem
[03:08] <Amaranth> Remember the wallpaper change?
[03:08] <Amaranth> I thought people would get the message then
[03:08] <Snova> Hmm?
[03:09] <gopogo> i think altest the icons should be changed in default theme
[03:09] <directhex> gopogo, are you volunteering to make replacement icons for everything in tango?
[03:10] <gopogo> yeah why not
[03:10] <Amaranth> Someone made this big list of repositories to get interesting unofficial packages and one of the guys included in the list didn't want his packages used by such people. He made a package that forced the GNOME wallpaper to be set to a skull and crossbones
[03:10] <gopogo> nice ;-)
[03:10] <ScottK> That's a warning about random third party repositories.
[03:11] <ScottK> Cryptographic package verificatio wouldn't help that one.
[03:11] <Amaranth> People apparently didn't realize a package for something like your panel could change other things on your system at the same time
[03:12] <Amaranth> ScottK: Still, it's the general "packages from other places can harm you" thing
[03:13] <ScottK> Sure.  The problem with the lack of cryptographic verification is packages you think are from places you trust can harm you.
[03:14]  * Amaranth wonders wtf happened to his IO performance
[03:14] <gopogo> this ico n set looks great -> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=2&id=32146&file1=32146-1.jpg&file2=32146-2.jpg&file3=32146-3.jpg&name=Glass+Icons+Theme
[03:16] <Amaranth> eep, no way
[03:16] <Amaranth> Human looks so much better
[03:16] <Milosz> yeah I give it a -- too
[03:16] <Milosz> the details are not right
[03:18] <gopogo> 326990 users like ......its one of the most downloaded in gnome look :-;
[03:21] <Milosz> well they have no taste :P
[03:21] <Milosz> it's quite surprising btw how many people think mediocre stuff is good
[03:21] <pwnguin> this the tyrrany of "no" ;)
[03:21] <Milosz> hence you can not really let the majority take a decision when it's about style.. it sounds a little harsh but is IMO the reality
[03:22] <Milosz> s/take/make/
[03:23] <pwnguin> Milosz: so what you're saying is that style is making a decision that the majority of people will disagree with
[03:23] <gopogo> there should be public voting about themes/ icon and users should be allowed to contribute ..........some kind competintion
[03:23] <Milosz> but it works the other way around - when someone who's proven of himself to have an eye for style decides something for most people and they "just" use it because it's let's say the default, it will be better for them even on a usability level (when it comes to Human for example usability and style are both a concern pertaining to the same thing), even if they don't notice it consciously
[03:23] <Milosz> pwnguin, not really ^
[03:24] <gopogo> ~ competition
[03:24] <Milosz> they will not disasgree if you give them something that is in the end effect better
[03:24] <Milosz> but they are to say it carefully possibly unable to make that decision in the first place
[03:24] <gopogo> who made human theme any way  some guy  in canonical ?
[03:24] <Milosz> i.e. something better will have a better effect on them but they're not able to choose it for themselves (sometimes, with some things)
[03:24] <Milosz> it's style dictatorship and it's generally good
[03:25] <pwnguin> Milosz: and how do you reach this conclusion, that the general population cannot find good "optimimum" designs?
[03:26] <Milosz> pwnguin, usability studies
[03:26] <gopogo> well Human theme sucks .........its dull and boring ..........i rather use os x icons
[03:27] <pwnguin> Milosz: like the Wichita State studies?
[03:27] <gopogo> hahaha
[03:27] <Milosz> it's superficially boring but it has properties that make it good for a default theme
[03:27] <Milosz> pwnguin, I don't know these
[03:27] <pwnguin> Milosz: they're the only ones i know of.
[03:28] <Milosz> pwnguin, I worked at a company who devised its own studies
[03:29] <Milosz> partially ordered by clients, partially in the FLOSS usability work we've been doing
[03:29] <gopogo> what happened to that company
[03:29] <Milosz> nothing, but I don't work there anymore
[03:29] <gopogo> oks is it still there
[03:31] <pwnguin> oh, i guess there's the nielsen group studies
[03:32] <pwnguin> but they generally trust users
[03:34] <gopogo> as developer you might to use VIM or editor , w3m for browsing web  mutt for checking email but general users may not
[03:35] <Milosz> just got to be observant
[03:35] <Milosz> and somewhat merciless
[03:36] <Milosz> if a user does not accomplish the task, then the interface or design has failed
[03:37] <calc> slangasek: ping, ispell-uk
[03:40] <pwnguin> Milosz: if that's the objective metric, where's it published?
[03:40] <gopogo> i am testing jaunty on my Dad .........who is Phd with 5 degrees ....Sr fellowship ....... who finds using checking his mail etc to be some kind of regrious routine  ......... he had tried 3 systems (windows xp -> moved bcos too many virus attacks ,  kde 3,59 and yesterday i installed jaunty for him)
[03:42] <Milosz> pwnguin, what is an objective metric?
[03:42] <pwnguin> Milosz: something used to settle disputes, mainly
[03:42] <Milosz> no
[03:42] <gopogo> he immediately asked me change ubuntu background ...wall paper etc
[03:42] <Milosz> that was not what I meant to ask
[03:43] <Milosz> I meant what in this context are you calling an "objective metric"?
[03:43] <Milosz> and by this context I mean the current discussion
[03:43] <pwnguin> broadly, usability
[03:44] <pwnguin> specifically you mentioned accomplishing a task or not
[03:44] <Milosz> Then I don't understand to what exactly that I've said you're referring
[03:44] <Milosz> And it certainly doesn't make sense to me to ask where "it" is published because usability is being published everywher
[03:44] <Milosz> where*
[03:44] <pwnguin> "if a user does not accomplish the task, then the interface or  design has failed"
[03:44] <Milosz> pwnguin, that's usability testing 1-0-1
[03:45] <Milosz> that's nothing specific to any specific company, specific way of proceedings or specific type of test  (if anything, than that, but even that not really because it generally applies to all usability tests, just that the definition of 'failed' may differ from the usual meaning)
[03:45] <pwnguin> im not under the impression that any testing guides decision making
[03:46] <gopogo> yeah some kind Human Interface Guide line by apple
[03:46] <Milosz> no, but you're understanding accomplishment in a task-focused sense, and by task you understand a process that you do from start to completion with a goal in mind
[03:46] <gopogo> if dont have it why not follow apple's
[03:46] <Milosz> but this is not how you read these terms in a usability testing context
[03:48] <gopogo> whats test group ?
[03:51] <Milosz> what a test group is?
[03:53] <gopogo> whats test group for usability testing for ubuntu ?
[03:53] <Amaranth> gopogo: We have a HIG
[03:53] <Amaranth> Well, GNOME does
[03:54] <gopogo> ubuntu HIG == Gnome HIG ?
[03:54] <pwnguin> well, probably not
[03:54] <pwnguin> firstly because KDE is in "ubuntu"
[03:54] <ScottK> Xubuntu too
[03:54] <pwnguin> yes, apologies
[03:55] <gopogo> kde 4 ...ithink they got there own guidlines
[03:55] <pwnguin> secondly because Canonical's been developing some new GNOME tech
[03:55] <pwnguin> that might redo some of the guidelines if successful
[03:55] <gopogo> like ?
[03:55] <pwnguin> notifications
[03:56] <gopogo> is different from kde 4 notifications
[03:58] <Milosz> I worked on the KDE 4 HIG in that company incidentally
[03:58] <Milosz> But I code myself using Gtk+ :)
[03:58] <ScottK> Yes and the Canonical stuff is very unlikley to get accepted by KDE, so even if they do produce a KDE version, it will be Kubuntu specific.
[04:00] <gopogo> i was always liked KDE ...its much much flexible and feature rich
[04:01] <pwnguin> in fact, i dont see anything in the GNOME HID a all about notifications
[04:05] <Amaranth> pwnguin: long standing bug
[04:06] <pwnguin> all of which supports my statement that ubuntu's acting guidelines are not == GNOME's published HIG :)
[04:08]  * ScottK suspects this would be a much better discussion for #ubuntu-offtopic
[04:28] <gopogo> maybe a minor difference
[05:10] <calc> gar i have to fix 7 dictionary source packages :\
[05:10] <calc> at least that was all that was buggy out of ~ 50
[07:00] <calc> hmm is requestsync broken?
[07:02] <calc> hmm i just dropped the -d sid from it and it worked
[09:39] <savvas> can you disable the packagekit error notification that another package manager is using apt?
[09:39] <savvas> or is that deliberately shown?
[11:54] <cjwatson> kirkland: you assigned bug 236640 to me for jaunty, but I'm not sure there's much more I can do with it at this point beyond what I've already uploaded ...
[11:54] <cjwatson> I guess I can ask for testing
[13:48] <pochu> slangasek: hi, bug #354475 should be fixed before Jaunty IMHO, could you look at the debdiff I've attached and maybe approve it?
[14:37] <jtisme> cjwatson, how would i go about downloading the  kde_ui.py code that R. Shtylman modified  for side by side fix, so i can test it
[16:01] <cjwatson> jtholmes: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/revision/3210 - but if you don't know how to apply that by hand, just wait until we upload it and a daily build is available
[16:35] <RicardoPerez> asac: Hi. I'm online, if you need me.
[17:42] <asac> RicardoPerez: hi. could you try to add some debug printf's in gdm code to see the font it actually uses?
[17:43] <RicardoPerez> asac: Mmhm... I can try it, but I'm not a developer, so I don't know if I'll be able to do that :)
[17:43] <asac> RicardoPerez: do you know how to rebuild deb/ubuntu packages?
[17:43] <RicardoPerez> asac: I'm using "dpkg-source -x" & "fakeroot debian/rules binary" in the past
[17:44] <RicardoPerez> s/I'm using/I used/g
[17:47] <asac> RicardoPerez: ok. wait a bit please
[17:47] <RicardoPerez> asac: sure
[18:21] <asac> RicardoPerez: hmm. seems i didnt put the debug output to the right code paths ... will check after dinner. if you are gone i will ask on the bug
[18:22] <RicardoPerez> asac: right! see you soon, then :)
[18:22] <RicardoPerez> asac: and thanks a lot
[18:25] <RicardoPerez> asac: BTW, what is suppossed to be the right default font? Bitstream Vera or DejaVu?
[19:00] <jtholmes> cjwatson, thanks i had to go away for a few hours, i think i know how to apply will try any way
[19:38] <philsf> hi, I need help debugging jaunty's python packages. I can't open many GUI packages (jockey, apport, ubuntu-bug, software properties). I was thinking maybe I could reinstall some key packages, but don't know where to begin
[19:38] <philsf> I was directed in #ubuntu+1 to ask here
[19:41] <slangasek> calc: what about ispell-uk?
[19:51] <siretart> yay! the intel 2.7 driver fixes resume in UXA on my 945GM hardware!
[19:54] <ScottK> siretart: How about crashiness?
[19:57] <siretart> ScottK: I've just installed it in /opt/somewhere and rebooted. uptime ~10 mins, but it already survived the first resume
[19:57] <siretart> performance is way better than UXA in pure jaunty, but still not at EXA in intrepid. but its getting closer
[19:58] <ScottK> siretart: I see.  Jaunty is pretty unuable for me as is (with 945GM), so it wouldn't take much for me to think we should update.
[19:58] <ScottK> unuable/unusable
[19:59] <siretart> well, planet-penguin-racer is still unplayable for me
[19:59] <siretart> let's try another suspend/resume
[19:59] <siretart> yay, survived again
[20:00] <siretart> ScottK: btw, this upgrade required a newer libdrm as well
[20:00] <siretart> so it is of course a nogo for jaunty, IMO
[20:00] <ScottK> We did a new libdrm like a week ago ...
[20:01] <siretart> well, jaunty has libdrm 2.4.5
[20:01] <siretart> the intel 2.7 driver requires 2.4.6
[20:01] <siretart> at some point, they seem to have botched with the version numbers, I think yesterday they released 2.4.9
[20:02] <siretart> that's what I compiled for my laptop
[20:02] <ScottK> For me the downside risk seems nil.  Once Jaunty is released and I don't need it for testing anymore, I'm dumping it as it is.
[20:02] <siretart> for karmic or intrepid?
[20:02] <ScottK> Probably Debian, but I'm not for sure yet.
[20:02] <siretart> I see
[20:03] <ScottK> Intrepid kernel is very problematic for me.
[20:16] <jdong> siretart: does 945GM crash X on resume from suspend for you?
[20:16] <siretart> jdong: it did in jaunty. it doesn't anymore with intel 2.7 for me
[20:16] <jdong> ah; what does getting 2.7 consist of?
[20:17] <jdong> (it's driving me nuts in Jaunty right now)
[20:17] <siretart> getting libdrm 2.4.9 and intel sources, installing build-dependencies, installing it to /opt/somewhere, add ModulePath directive to your /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[20:18] <siretart> luckily, I didn't need to touch any kernel modules..
[20:18] <jdong> okay, I was primarily worried about kernel land; that sounds straightforward
[20:18] <jdong> I'll have to put that on my TODO list
[20:19] <siretart> for intel the kernel parts are in the kernel tree.
[20:19] <siretart> for other drivers (radeon, etc) you need to build from the libdrm tree
[20:20] <jdong> cool; I was just worried the jaunty versions wouldn't suffice
[20:30] <calc> slangasek: er can it get approved?
[20:30] <calc> slangasek: you asked me about the changes a week or two ago so i had documented them
[20:31] <slangasek> calc: approved where?  I don't see a bug that ubuntu-release is subscribed to, nor an upload in the queue?
[20:31] <calc> hmm i thought it had been
[20:32] <calc> perhaps you unsubcribed it when you asked for more details?
[20:32] <calc> it just needs sync not uploading
[20:32] <slangasek> oh, you subscribed ubuntu-archive for the sync
[20:33] <calc> ah so i need to subscribe ubuntu-release as well?
[20:33] <slangasek> no
[20:33] <slangasek> you need to subscribe ubuntu-release if you want an exception, but you said it doesn't need an exception
[20:33] <calc> well it esentially isn't a big change even though it is a new upstream
[20:33] <slangasek> hmm, did you actually look at the diff for those bits that aren't just data?
[20:34] <calc> yes, they seemed to be fine
[20:34] <slangasek> ok
[20:34] <calc> the ooo xcu for example is just for building OOo extension with it
[20:34] <slangasek> then yeah, it's fine to sync (though you should also set the bug back to 'confirmed' :)
[20:34] <calc> ok
[20:35] <calc> i also need syncs for espa-nol and ipolish (already filed bugs for them as well)
[20:35] <calc> i found out just yesterday that the dictionary issue affected more packages than i thought, rene had just filed bugs on a few that he felt like doing
[20:36] <calc> so last night i went through all the dictionary packages in ubuntu (afaik anyway) and found the ones affected, only 7 packages total, the other 4 i still need to fix in debian first then sync
[20:36] <calc> i'll try to get those done monday morning
[20:37] <calc> not too bad out of ~ 50 source though
[20:38] <slangasek> I still think this should have been fixed in OOo.
[20:38] <slangasek> having to provide exhaustive country maps in order to use a dictionary for a language is wrong
[20:56] <calc> slangasek: agreed... however as upstream doesn't use system dictionaries at all it won't get fixed quickly, and i don't understand what is it doing since it is convoluted between their extensions and system support :\
[20:57] <slangasek> heh
[20:58] <calc> it might have a chance at getting fixed due to some other bugs in the dictionary support for multiple dictionaries of the same language
[20:58] <calc> eg if you have a medical dictionary as an extension it currently completely overrides the system dictionary for the language
[20:58] <calc> so the only correct spelled words are the medical dictionary ones :\
[20:59] <calc> erm the only ones it thinks are correct
[21:07]  * calc bbl, gone to easter stuff
[21:58] <philsf>  hi, I need help debugging jaunty's python packages. I can't open many GUI packages (jockey, apport, ubuntu-bug, software properties). I hope I could reinstall or reconfigure some key packages, but don't know where to begin
[22:00] <philsf> software-properties-gtk error http://paste.ubuntu.com/149125/
[22:00] <philsf> jockey-gtk error http://paste.ubuntu.com/149126/
[22:01] <philsf> apport ubuntu-bug error http://paste.ubuntu.com/149127/
[22:04]  * Snova is looking at the software-properties-gtk one
[22:04] <philsf> thanks
[22:04] <Snova> And... I have no idea, I just try not to let people feel they're ignored. :)
[22:05] <philsf> I have just uninstalled python2.4 and python2.5
[22:05] <Snova> Looking at the package files, the files are there...
[22:05] <philsf> Snova: this is the result of a bad upgrade, but I hope to save it without re-installing
[22:06] <Snova> Oh dear... check that this file exists: /usr/share/pyshared/softwareproperties/gtk/SoftwarePropertiesGtk.py
[22:06] <philsf> I don't believe they are really bugs in the packages, but maybe someone here understands what's going on, and has some spare time to help me
[22:06] <Nafallo> considering it's not only a weekend, but also the easter holiday...
[22:07] <philsf> Snova: it exists
[22:07] <philsf> Nafallo: you're right, bad timing
[22:07] <Snova> Open a Python interpreter and paste the output of this:
[22:07] <Snova> import sys
[22:07] <Snova> print sys.path
[22:08] <philsf> ['', '/usr/lib/python2.6', '/usr/lib/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-dynload', '/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages', '/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/PIL', '/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/gst-0.10', '/var/lib/python-support/python2.6', '/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/gtk-2.0', '/var/lib/python-support/python2.6/gtk-2.0', '/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages']
[22:14] <Snova> Not to mention I'm not running on Jaunty...
[22:14] <philsf> Snova: http://paste.ubuntu.com/149136/ I just tried the following: force-remove python26 (and -minimal, and libpython26), and reinstall them
[22:14] <philsf> ImportError: No module named shutil
[22:15] <philsf> this should be simple, now, right :)
[22:15] <Snova> Er, not so much.
[22:16] <Snova> That's supposed to be included with the standard install... if even *that* won't work, there are problems.
[22:20] <savvas> philsf: is it a desktop install or a server?
[22:21] <philsf> savvas: desktop
[22:21] <savvas> jaunty right?
[22:21] <philsf> I can install python2.4 and 2.5 without a problem
[22:21] <philsf> jaunty, yes
[22:23] <savvas> philsf: can you send this to pastebin: apt-cache policy python python2.6 python2.6-minimal
[22:24] <savvas> philsf: also this, sorry: apt-cache policy ubuntu-desktop
[22:25] <philsf> savvas: http://paste.ubuntu.com/149138/
[22:26] <savvas> ok try: sudo aptitude reinstall                 if not self.arguments['mode'] == 'file':dpkg-reconfigure
[22:26] <savvas>                     self.usage("ERROR: -i should be used with -f <filename>")
[22:26] <savvas>                 self.arguments['in-place'] = True
[22:26] <savvas> oops
[22:26] <savvas> wait :)
[22:26] <Milosz> When will my sources show up in the PPA?
[22:26] <Milosz> I thought I can at least see immediately that they were uploaded correctly
[22:27] <savvas> Milosz: try #launchpad - I think it takes about 15 minutes
[22:27] <philsf> maybe if I remove or purge all python packages that depend on py2.6, reinstall py2.6, then reinstall the deps from ubuntu-dekstop
[22:27] <Milosz> ok that's good because I thought already something's wrong
[22:27] <Milosz> and, switching to #launchpad, thanks
[22:27] <savvas> philsf: try this: sudo aptitude reinstall python2.6; sudo dpkg-reconfigure python2.6
[22:32] <savvas> philsf: anything?
[22:33] <philsf> savvas: just a sec, I made things worse. trying to get back to the point where I had python-support installed :)
[22:33] <savvas> ok :p
[22:36] <philsf> savvas: will you be here in 30-60 min from now. I have to leave for now
[22:38] <savvas> philsf: no idea, but try to reinstall everything if you know how to do it :)
[22:38] <philsf> savvas: I will, thanks anyway