[14:33] * kenvandine_wk learned the difference between a . and ~ in a version :) [14:35] seb128: any reason why gnome-user-share is still 2.25.92? [14:35] didrocks: nobody bothered doing the upgrade I guess [14:35] didrocks: i think it was late for 2.26.0 [14:35] kenvandine_wk: ? [14:36] i don't think the tarball was ready on time [14:36] kenvandine_wk: we did GNOME updates today still so I don't think it was that late [14:36] seb128/kenvandine_wk: do you want I update it (to have a FFe) [14:36] so it wasn't in your queue :) [14:36] oh... not that late [14:36] it's rather in universe so I don't list it [14:36] i meant last time [14:36] ah [14:36] i looked during the last bump, and it wasn't done [14:36] it's up for MOTU or whoever cares about it [14:36] I'm tracking ubuntu-desktop updates [14:37] didrocks: feel free to do the update, thanks [14:37] seb128: ok, doing it now [14:37] thanks [14:37] seb128: y/w === rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk [14:48] asac: so how is the gwibber review? what can we do? [14:48] asac: and anything i can do to help? [14:51] seb128, wanted to ping you re bug 272083. upstream hasn't been responsive looking at the upstream bug report. how do you (and other -desktop) folk feel about pulling in a patch that just fixed it in the glade file? [14:51] Launchpad bug 272083 in mythbuntu "Zenity windows appear underneath others" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/272083 [14:55] kenvandine_wk: well. i think its too late for gwibber. we should file this upstream as lesson learned :) [14:56] for me the UI regressed. also it didnt even start -> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~asac/gwibber/xdg_data_dirs_typo/+merge/5516 [14:56] we really want the indicator support though... perhaps we can just back port those changes? [14:56] hehe [14:56] kenvandine_wk: doesnt reawlly speak for the quality and seems liek more testing is needed [14:56] the extra _ [14:56] kenvandine_wk: so yeah. if we can come up with a minimal indicator patch that would work === rickspencer3-afk is now known as rickspencer3 [14:57] ok [14:57] asac: i can do that at least [14:57] jorge says there are some pretty important bug fixes too... but i guess we should make them justify bug fixes we pull in [14:57] kenvandine_wk: but that has to be easy to see that its safe ;) ... not sure if there were infrastructure fixes required - which would make this harder to do in a safe fashion [14:57] kenvandine_wk: we can pull in bug fixes after release as SRU [14:57] asac: the MI is easy [14:58] i will get a patch this morning :) [14:58] kenvandine_wk: "easy" always feels risky ;) [14:58] great [15:04] kenvandine_wk: that twitter patch needs to go in for sure [15:04] it doesn't work otherwise [15:04] good point [15:04] i'll do that separate [15:05] you guys are still discussing gwibber? [15:05] I've the impression you are discussing that for weeks now ;-) [15:05] hehe [15:06] it's a mess :/ [15:06] just drop the thing for jaunty if it doesn't work [15:06] that will teach upstream to ship code which is working maybe next time ;-) [15:09] superm1: I've no real opinion about that change and it's late for jaunty now, is that creating issues in visible situations? [15:11] seb128: well, they did have to wait for the indicator stuff to land [15:11] but yeah, it took too long [15:11] jcastro: 2 weeks ago in my ppa :) [15:11] seb128, for mythbuntu it's making a bad situation, that if you launch mythtv-setup, when it closes, it uses zenity to ask to make some changes, but it comes up behind the application you launched mythtv-setup from, and the application you launched it from is blocked in the UI [15:11] we shouldn't have pushed the indicator changes if they were too late then [15:12] superm1: and nobody noticed until today? [15:12] superm1: how did you do before? [15:12] seb128, no we knew about it for a while, but we thought it was an xfwm4 bug [15:13] xfwm4 was doing focus entirely wrong on 8.10, and w/ the update-manager changes they fixed that bug and this showed up w/ higher visibility [15:13] I'm not familiar enough with the map on focus behaviour to comment and mvo is on holidays still today [15:13] so ask slangasek or wait for him to come back tomorrow that will not be for rc anyway [15:14] yeah it's post install that it is a problem, so after RC is fine [15:25] kenvandine_wk: there is supposed to be a twitter fix on trunk too; can you see if we can cherry pick that too? [15:26] asac: already done [15:26] kenvandine_wk: its 285 [15:26] ah cool [15:26] kenvandine_wk: do you have your own team or are you in gwibber-team? [15:26] err your own branch i mean [15:27] no... just creating a debdiff [15:27] okay [15:27] kenvandine_wk: isnt it a full source branch? if thats the case cherry picking in bzr directly would make sens [15:28] (imho) [15:28] oh... didn't look [15:28] but i can do that [15:28] actually [15:28] not that simple [15:28] i am having to tweak the patches from bzr [15:28] kenvandine_wk: its bzr merge -c 285 [15:28] because of other changes sprinkled in there [15:28] i am pulling bits from 4 revisions [15:29] yeah. still bzr might be smart when merging new upstream and eliminate it [15:29] the twitter one is just one rev [15:29] (not sure if its that smart though ;)) [15:29] i had to make manual changes... not just merge related [15:29] kenvandine_wk: yeah one rev is merge -c REVISION [15:29] k [15:29] so is the packaging in bzr? [15:29] what does control suggest ;)? [15:30] yeah... :) [15:30] i hadn't looked there yet [15:30] kenvandine_wk: its https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~gwibber-team/gwibber/packaging [15:30] got it [15:30] fta: can you cut off a stable branch for revision 50 ? [15:30] kenvandine_wk: there is more ...revision 50 is what we have in archive [15:30] ok [15:31] fta: is the python-xdg depend needed for 0.8 or only after that? [15:32] kenvandine_wk: ok revision 51 is what you should start on [15:32] ok [15:32] except that the changelog is bumped there [15:32] which seems to be a mistake [15:39] asac: so why rev 51? [15:39] since rev 50 is existing version in universe? [15:42] kenvandine_wk: i wanted rev 51 for the python-xdg fix [15:42] ah [15:42] ok, so that is real [15:42] kenvandine_wk: well. just cut off rev 50 [15:42] and do the python-xdg on that stable branch i would say [15:42] ok [15:42] pitti: Thanks for sponsoring and uploading the bug fixes on indicator-applet. [15:42] just add the dep? [15:42] hey tedg; you're welcome [15:43] kenvandine_wk: yeah. bump changelog to next revision and UNRELEASED and commit python-xdg dep [15:44] hi, guys. Does anyone know if there is any standard for menu entries? some spec, doc, wiki or something? [15:44] I mean the way of putting the names and descriptions [15:45] juanje: there's the fd.o desktop and menu specifications [15:45] desktop file rather [15:45] dobey: yeah, I know. It is not what I meant. [15:46] well name should be the name of your app, and description should be a very short (few words) description of what it does [15:46] I mean the names like: "Description App name" [15:46] or "App name" [15:46] or "Description (App name)" [15:47] dobey: yes, but the problem is that I don't see any standard way to fill the field "Name=" on .desktops [15:47] name, genericname, and description seem like straightforward descriptions of what they should be, to me [15:47] some apps put just descriptions [15:48] juanje: all apps put their name there [15:48] what apps put descriptions there? [15:48] others add also a description [15:48] dobey: let me search one... [15:49] some put both name and genericname inside name [15:49] which is wrong really [15:49] epiphany does that [15:51] the point of them being separate is to allow whatever is displaying the menus to handle that in some preferred way [15:51] them being separate is broken, i18n-wise, though [15:52] dobey: here some examples: [15:52] /usr/share/applications/transmission.desktop:Name=Transmission BitTorrent Client [15:52] /usr/share/applications/tsclient.desktop:Name=Terminal Server Client [15:52] /usr/share/applications/vino-preferences.desktop:Name=Remote Desktop [15:52] /usr/share/applications/xsane.desktop:Name=XSane Image scanning program [15:52] /usr/share/applications/brasero.desktop:Name=Brasero Disc Burner [15:52] /usr/share/applications/alacarte.desktop:Name=Main Menu [15:52] some has name, some not [15:52] some description, some just the description [15:52] and there are much more [15:52] all are from the last Jaunty [15:53] mclasen: not really [15:54] yes, it is [15:54] having N apps all translate the same text N times is broken, i18n-wise [15:54] for most apps, Name shouldn't be translated at all [15:55] if you want to be able to display a combination of name and generic name in the menu, that combination needs to be translated as one [15:56] dobey: but should be a standard about what to put as Name [15:56] we shouldn't be putting generic name in anything anyway [15:56] and name and generic name shouldn't be concatenated [15:57] somethines devs don't put the app name, others yes [15:57] juanje: i think you're just confusing some of them because "preferences" items are also in /usr/share/applications [15:58] so alacarte just says "Main Menu", which it isn't, but which it modifies [15:58] dobey: not, if you see the apps in the menu you can see they are different [15:59] my problem is this is very heterogeneous and cofusing for the normal users [15:59] i didn't say others weren't broken [15:59] i said for the general case, name is the app's name [15:59] ok [15:59] I just need to know if there is any policy or spec about it in Ubuntu [15:59] or apparently in a lot of cases it is "appname genericname" which is broken [16:00] ummm [16:01] so, the normal way should be something like: Name=Epiphany and GenericName=Web Browser [16:01] juanje: I'm pretty sure that the accepted standard is to use "Appname Functionality" [16:01] so you concatenate the names if you whish [16:01] Whether or not dobey thinks it's broken :) [16:01] tedg: it's broken [16:02] the accepted standard is more like 'do whatever the hell you feel like' [16:02] dobey: I think it's important and should be fixed... [16:02] :-/ [16:02] yes it should be fixed [16:02] the users can get very confused [16:02] but you'll find people will prefer to pain the shed, rather than fix it [16:02] and it's madnes for documentation [16:03] dobey: where you think is the better place to talk that? I mean, to make a spec and trying to do something? [16:04] i think making another spec would be redundant and pointless [16:04] I'm working on Guadalinex (a Ubuntu derivative) and we need to fix for us, but we like to help to be fixed upstream (I mean Ubuntu) [16:05] http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html#recognized-keys [16:05] that clearly specifies what name/genericname/comment should be [16:05] dobey: but there is already a lot of things Ubuntu change on the packages (for example the X-GETTEXT.... on .desktops) [16:05] sure [16:06] ummmm [16:06] so we can change them in the same way, I guess... [16:07] if you want to maintain additional patches, sure [16:07] it would be best to get it fixed in proper upstream though [16:07] yes, of course [16:08] with official applications from GNOME or others big projects should be easier... [16:09] juanje: what do you want to add? [16:09] dobey: ok, thanks, so much for the info. I'll give it a though... [16:09] filing bugs with patches that are "foo does not adhere to the desktop file standard" are probably a good approach to it [16:09] seb128: I just like to have standard names for all the menu entries [16:10] "standard"? [16:10] not like now [16:10] seb128: "not a cluster of random different whatever the developer decided to shove in a desktop file" [16:10] seb128: yes, now there are some like "App_name description", other like "App_name" and other like "Description" [16:11] the HIG has recommendations and most applications are using those [16:11] seb128: and which is that recomendation? [16:11] the appname is there when that's not the standard application to do something [16:11] gedit is "text editor" [16:11] for example [16:12] aha [16:12] ugh, the HIG is broken [16:12] but gtkedit would be "gtkedit text editor" [16:12] so you don't confuse both [16:12] the gnome hig is [16:12] ummmm [16:12] there has been several GNOME discussions about that already [16:12] seb128: that is confusing for the userws and documentation [16:12] and how to handle the case where you have several applications for the same function [16:13] yeah, but GNOME isn't the only thing on the block [16:13] well there is no easy way around it [16:13] you don't want to put the application name in each menu entry that's ugly [16:13] seb128: mostly if yuo don't have the same "official" apps, as the Derivatives cases [16:13] but when you have several text editors you still want to be able to make the difference [16:13] well yes [16:14] seb128: but that is many times useful for documentation purposes [16:14] you don't want 10 text editors all called "Text Editor" [16:14] and having "Foo Text Editor" is almost as bad, since it's just blatently redundant [16:14] and it doesn't fit with the freedesktop spec [16:15] juanje: what do you suggest changing to make it better? [16:15] seb128: putting the name somehow [16:15] re [16:15] wb didrocks [16:16] juanje: in every item? that would look ugly compared to what we have now [16:16] and titles would be harder to parse [16:16] no, every item shouldn't have app name as name [16:16] seb128: "Text edit (Gedit)" [16:16] that's not nice looking [16:16] eek [16:16] there needs to be more heuristic evaluation of it [16:17] ie, only things that are OnlyShowIn should have a generic name as Name [16:17] seb128: I know it is not the better option, but something must be [16:17] so gnome-calculator should be Calculator [16:17] that was discussed somewhere some time ago [16:17] but epiphany should be Epiphany [16:17] I think vuntz suggested adding the name if there was several option for the same function [16:18] I will probably not find the discussion now [16:18] that was either on the GNOME desktop devel list or the xdg one [16:18] but having GenericName at all seems pointless and a waste of time [16:18] it was almost certainly on a gnome list [16:19] seb128: I said that because on Guadalinex we have thousands of users which use the applications everyday on schools and other centers and they need lots of time to know the name of some application and the documentation, recipes and technical support need to know which app are they running... [16:19] because the gnome hig differs from the freedesktop spec [16:19] seb128: It's not easy guess which apps they are running some times... :-/ [16:19] also, having menu names that differ from what's in "About" is annoying [16:19] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-July/msg00165.html [16:19] juanje: Depending on how your docs are built, it might be good to pull those from the .desktop files. So if they change, your documentation gets updated. [16:19] ^ that was the discussion [16:20] yes, that was the gnome discussion that only considered gnome :) [16:20] still it has some suggestions and arguments [16:20] tedg: when you need to guide to a very end user through menues and options, you need to know... [16:20] ie useful to read before starting the discussion from scratch [16:21] juanje: well the documentation should match what you install [16:21] juanje: read the url I copied there [16:22] seb128: I'm goint now... But it's not just about the documetnation, also the technical support and more stuff [16:22] * juanje reading.... [16:22] juanje: I don't say there is not a problem, you are arguing the wrong way [16:23] ie don't try to convince me there is an issue [16:23] but rather try to find a good solution [16:23] seb128: What do you mean? [16:23] ok [16:23] well you are trying to explain that the current situation is not ideal [16:23] we know about that, there is just no obvious better way right now [16:23] but we are open to suggestions [16:24] seb128: don't get me wrong, I don't try to convince you, I was just asking for a standard or for place to discuss and try to find solution. I haven't the solution at all [16:24] the xdg list would be a good place to start I guess [16:24] but such issues have already been discussed [16:25] so better to come with a good suggestion if you want to get things moving ;-) [16:25] well, even in the context of only gnome, the result of that discussion isn't the best [16:26] seb128: In Guadalinex we were changing all the .desktops to fit with "Description (app_name)" for all our defaults apps, but we like to try doing better and working with upstream [16:27] what are you trying to solve exactly? [16:27] make the job easier for phone debugging? [16:27] in part [16:27] and to have all the entries in the same way [16:27] no some with names and others without them [16:28] that doesn't bring any value [16:28] just makes those look less nice [16:28] and if the people goes to a forum and somebody says something about one app they know which one is [16:28] * asac runs to get some before before the meeting [16:29] seb128: well, at least looks more homogeneous... [16:29] they look less nice too [16:29] "Text Editor" [16:29] seb128: I know, it isn't nicer, but less heterogeneous [16:29] "Image Editor" [16:29] juanje: are you doing it via GenericName (Name) or something else? [16:29] that's better than [16:29] "Text Editor (Somename)" [16:30] seb128: not when you have more than one Text Editor installed :) [16:30] juanje: who cares about heterogeneous, what you aim at is easy to use [16:30] calc: cf backlog [16:30] * calc looking [16:30] "Text Editor" is the standard editor [16:30] seb128: heterogeneous get the users confused... [16:30] other alternative have the name specified [16:31] juanje: I fail to see why "Text Editor" would be confusing to users [16:31] seb128: that not [16:31] seb128: if you set "Text Editor" to something other than gedit in preferred applications [16:31] we don't do that [16:31] asac: bug 361120 [16:31] Launchpad bug 361120 in gwibber "Backport message indicator support from trunk to 0.8" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361120 [16:31] seb128: to have "Text Editor" and toher entry like "Foo for doing somwthing" [16:31] asac: mind taking a look? [16:32] seb128: we don't, but if some user does [16:32] asac: none of the source files are in the branch... so i couldn't use bzr-buildpackage... first one i have run into like that [16:32] oh, i guess 'text editor' was removed from default app preferences [16:33] seb128: Ok, Ubuntu and GNOME use some apps as defaults, but maybe other derivatives use others apps instead [16:33] and default app prefs is some awful ui too [16:33] asac: gwibber seems fine [16:34] i stopped reading once seb128 mentioned the the Gnome HIG specifically tells developers to violate the standard [16:34] (on the phone) [16:34] so this issue is because Gnome is braindamaged once again :\ [16:35] imho it should have the correct values in the various areas and detect in the menu display code if it needs to display more such as "Name GenericName" such as for the gtkedit Text Editor case [16:35] but then a lot of what Gnome does seems way out in space :\ [16:35] i don't think i agree with that [16:35] but the HIG is definitely braindamaged [16:36] dobey: well if you don't want all programs to always display such as Name GenericName then there has to be some sort of autodetection... or violation of the spec [16:36] dobey: which is what i think they ended up saying f*ck the spec instead of doing the autodetection [16:37] of course if you autodetect you also run into the problem of program names in the menu changing if you install more than one of the same type app [16:37] juanje: if you change "Text Editor" that's your issue as a distributor, you should not be doing that or update your documentation [16:37] nah, there is a better way to do it [16:37] eg "Text Editor" becomes Gedit Text Editor magically if you install another one (from the user perspective) [16:37] "Text Editor" should be calling gnome-text-editor [16:38] dobey: ah yea :) well for this one case that is true [16:38] calc: GNOME doesn't do any autodetection [16:38] at least, on deb/ubuntu/etc... [16:38] calc: they just use Name [16:38] seb128: i know.. they tell people to violate the spec instead [16:38] calc: no they don't [16:38] seb128: did you just say that they tell people to put in Name what they want displayed instead of the actual Name of the app? [16:38] seb128: yes they do. the HIG specifically says "don't do what the spec says, but do this instead" [16:38] without mentioning anything about the spec [16:38] "Text Editor" is not the real name of Gedit [16:39] "text editor" is hardly a sufficient description of gedit anyway [16:39] * calc notes this is one of those things about Gnome that has annoyed him a long time, unless KDE has changed it actually used to use the values correctly [16:41] calc: KDE allow to customize the format using Name and GenericName I think [16:41] ie you can use "Name - GenericName" [16:41] or "Name" [16:41] or whatever [16:41] yes and so they don't violate the spec either [16:41] gnome decided we'll take the file format for desktop files and then just ignore the rest of the spec [16:41] who cares about the stupid spec ;-) [16:42] Gnome == MSFT? :) [16:42] seb128: ummm... But, now, which is used in GNOME for the menus entries? Name or GnericName? [16:42] juanje: Name [16:42] calc: the spec has been mostly written by GNOME people [16:42] seb128: so even better they are preceding microsoft's OOXML efforts of documenting something that they don't even use properly themselves ;-) [16:42] calc: there is just a disagrement on the naming, your anti-GNOME comments are not really constructive there [16:43] seb128: actually, i think it was mostly written by waldo, and the gnome people just made minor changes/patches to it [16:43] seb128: its very clear what is supposed to go into Name otherwise there would be no GenericName field at ALL [16:43] calc: ok, really constructive trolling, I will just ignore you there I think [16:43] I'm fine discussion the issue [16:43] but that's not the chan for trolling [16:43] discussion -> discussing [16:44] seb128: explain why GenericName exists at all if Gnome supposeldy wrote the spec themselves... when they 1. don't use GenericName, and 2. Stick generic names into Name [16:44] well people, calm down... please... [16:44] calc: the spec is not all about Name [16:45] calc: you focus on one line of the spec [16:45] of course its not, but that is one of the main features of the spec as it is primarily for menu items [16:45] calc: GenericName shouldn't exist (but neither should it be appended to Name) [16:45] calc: there is just disagrement on what Name should be [16:46] ok [16:47] * calc notes this also causes Ubuntu to decide it needs to rewrite the Name fields for all OOo packages and properly other distros for other programs since we can't just stick to Name="Real Name" GenericName="what it is" [16:47] s/properly/probably/ [16:47] ummmm.. So the problem here is what the Name field should be? [16:49] since apparently no one can agree (or knows?) what should be in the two fields distributions end up having to hack up the files themselves to make the menu entries look the way they want them to.... EPIC FAIL [16:49] I thought the rule was follow the spec... and the problem was some apps that were broken that rule... I guess I was wrong... [16:49] the whole concept of this was to make menus less trouble to deal with and it hasn't really acheived... works for the mime half (afaik) but not well for the menus [16:49] following the spec to the letter doesn't lead to workable menus [16:50] mclasen: not workable according to the HIG i suppose? It seems to work well for KDE [16:50] mclasen: so, why the spec then? [16:50] kenvandine_wk: please add LP: #358341 to the twitter changelog entry [16:50] but menus are not really a very good solution for the problem in the first place [16:50] calc: How is KDE doing that? [16:51] juanje: how you want, they let you pick the field to use and the order [16:51] * asac waits for some dents to arrive to see how well indicate works with gwibber [16:51] asac: ij [16:51] juanje: i don't remember anymore, its been a few years since i maintained KDE [16:51] juanje: which probably doesn't make your documentation job any easier [16:51] calc: but they use Name and GenericName? === jgoguen_ is now known as jgoguen [16:52] juanje: afaik they use them depending on what you set in the config [16:52] juanje: can be Name (GenericName) GenericName (Name) and maybe various other combinations [16:52] some years ago i wrote menu-xdg, back when i still maintained KDE [16:52] kenvandine_wk: to earn extra credits you could refer to the revision you cherry picked/ported either in patch description or in changelog [16:53] * asac still waiting for new dents ;) [16:53] seb128: ummmm... I don't know... [16:53] asac: pushed changes [16:53] asac: ok, i can add revnos :) [16:54] either URL to revisions or revno + branch reference ;) [16:55] * calc stops discussing something that will never be solved, no point in hoping they start following standards [16:55] kenvandine_wk: bug 359885 and bug 360468 are dupes, right? [16:55] Launchpad bug 359885 in gwibber "Gwibber is exceeding the Twitter rate limit (HTTP Error 400: Bad request)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359885 [16:55] juanje: basically you will probably need to patch all desktop files you want to change yourself... we already do that in Ubuntu to make the OOo "Name"s generic [16:55] Launchpad bug 360468 in gwibber "Gwibber 1.0.2: HTTPError: HTTP Error 401: Unauthorized" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360468 [16:55] seb128: the problem with the documentation, support and users is that usually people like to have names for calling to the things their use and not all the apps have the same menus, options, configurations and so. And when an user google for a problem on Guadalinex/Ubuntu usually found stuff like "open Gedit and do something" or "run appX" and so on... [16:55] i don't see the bad point in following the [obsolote-or-not]spec [16:55] at least we'd have smth standard... [16:56] not a mess [16:56] kenvandine_wk: hmm first seems to be rate related. so i guess only the 36.. one is dupe [16:56] rcmorano: the spec isn't obsolete its that Gnome just choooses to ignore what those two fields are actually for [16:56] rcmorano: there is no mess right now, the ubuntu menus are quite easy to use, the entry are described by their function [16:56] rcmorano: which leads to people having to rewrite the desktop files for various apps because they don't like the way they look [16:57] asac: yes, that's right [16:57] rcmorano: in Ubuntu's case if they were done properly we could just use GenericName instead of Name for all apps [16:57] kenvandine_wk: so 359885 is a regression from the the GET/POST fix (of course not easily fixable, so ok imo) [16:57] yeah [16:58] calc: what would GenericName for gnometris be? :) [16:58] seb128: I know is a bit uglier to have "GenericName (Name)" or similar, but it is worst to have some in that way, others "Generic Name", others "Name - GnericName", and much muro.. options in the same menu... [16:58] dobey: that one is tough as its already nearly infringing on a trademark [16:58]