[01:19] <abb> Hi, apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this -- but does this particular channel meant for the Ubuntu (System) Documentation Team, the Wiki Team, or (Insert Something Else Here)?
[01:20] <nhandler> abb: This channel is for the Documentation Team. The System and wiki documentation teams are both part of this large team.
[01:20] <j1mc> abb: we primarily handle the system documentation, but wiki docs factor in, too. It's just that the wiki docs are mostly written by the community, rather than just the doc team.
[01:20] <j1mc> hi nhandler
[01:21] <abb> Thanks nhandler, I guess what I meant to ask was if there were individual (less-generalized) IRC channels for the specific teams.  I didn't want to spam System Doc folks with Wiki Team questions, etc.
[01:21] <nhandler> Hey j1mc
[01:21] <abb> oops, should have waited to read jlmc's post -- ha
[01:21] <j1mc> abb: ah, ok. it's ok to ask here. :)
[01:21] <j1mc> are you having trouble with the wiki docs?
[01:22] <abb> Oh, nothing like that -- I am actually looking to volunteer in one or both of the doc team areas, but I haven't quite decided where I could best help out (in terms of my particular skillset, etc).  So I suppose I was just making sure I knew "where to ask, once I knew WHAT to ask" :)
[01:23] <nhandler> abb: Well, if you are interested in helping out with the wiki, Rocket2DMn is going to be organizing a summer of documentation that focuses on updating and cleaning up the wiki
[01:24]  * Rocket2DMn peeks
[01:24] <j1mc> hahaha
[01:24] <abb> I'm eager to help with *something* w/ the Ubuntu community, so naturally I looked to the code/bug section and quickly decided that my coding talents are not quite to par with those fine individuals.  But documenting what coders do?  Hey, now that I can dig...
[01:24] <abb> summer of documentation -- nice
[01:24] <abb> sounds like punishment for high schoolers who acted out during the regular school year
[01:24] <abb> :)
[01:25] <Rocket2DMn> funny isnt it, something like that can be fun when you're not being forced to do it, otherwise it might be boring and dull
[01:25] <abb> no doubt -- I mean, why comment your OWN code when you can comment ABOUT someone else's?
[01:26] <abb> (Or wikify said comments in some form or fashion.)
[01:26] <Rocket2DMn> hehe, well we're not documenting code, we're really documenting how to use the system
[01:26] <nhandler> abb: If you are interested in documenting code, you can look up packages that are missing man pages
[01:26] <abb> Nothing quite like spending a summer developing documentation for a community that will immediately (1) improve things such that said documentation is obsolete, and (2) edit it away forever, god bless the wiki. :)
[01:26] <Rocket2DMn> documentation should generally be written at a level that a beginner can understand
[01:27] <Rocket2DMn> indeed abb , that is one of the major problems, is outdated documentation
[01:27] <abb> nhandler, I was looking at doing that particular thing actually -- but when I executed "man programWithNoManPage" there was nothing to tell me how to use the darn thing, so how can I document something like THAT? jeez.
[01:28] <Rocket2DMn> man firefox
[01:28] <Rocket2DMn> of all the programs...
[01:29] <abb> The way I see it -- and please, don't take this to mean that one type of documentation is more important than others -- but I've made minor changes (typos, etc) to the Wiki pages, and that seems like a relatively easy place to start.  Doesn't require learning how to use Docbook, for example.
[01:30] <Rocket2DMn> +1, that's one reason i like the wiki, and choose that as the starting point for people participating in the summer of documentation
[01:30] <Rocket2DMn> you need to get comfortable with some wiki syntax, but you can learn it through imitation
[01:30] <abb> (That would allow me to wade in, start helping immediately -- and then I can wade into the other areas of re-documentation-ification as I become more familiar with the process...)  Does this sound like an absurd approach, or appropriate...?
[01:30]  * abb asks the experts
[01:31] <Rocket2DMn> lol @ re-documentation-ification
[01:31] <nhandler> abb: That sounds like a perfectly fine approach. It will allow you to gain experience writing documentation and interacting with the team (although /me isn't a doc expert)
[01:31] <abb> everyone lol's at redocumentationification.
[01:31] <Rocket2DMn> thats not absurd at all
[01:32] <Rocket2DMn> ive done a bit with docbook, but definitely started with the wiki
[01:32] <abb> (As you see, I am perfect for the Docs team, as my masterfulified mastering of the english languages is quite simply, masterific.
[01:34] <abb> So, wiki editing -- after reading the DocumentationTeam/Wiki page, the linked style guides, a comprehensive volume on morse code and its relevance to today's society -- what would be the best next step?  Jumping on the "Cleanup" pages, or the "Tasks List"...?
[01:35] <Rocket2DMn> not sure how much we use that Tasks page
[01:36] <Rocket2DMn> checking for pages that are Tagged is a good start though
[01:36] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
[01:36] <abb> If you don't use the Tasks page -- is that because there are few tasks, or because "todo" items are listed in the bugtracker at Launchpad or because there is simply not any work to be done? :)
[01:37] <Rocket2DMn> heh, well there is always work to be done
[01:37]  * abb says "ooh, a clicky-link-thing!" and flies to the tags section
[01:37] <Rocket2DMn> i think we just havent managed to keep it organized well enough on that page to make it very useful
[01:37] <abb> (How did I know that would be your response, Rocket2Dman!)
[01:38] <abb> I know, if only someone or some group could be assigned to work on the wikis and related documents ...
[01:38]  * abb cringes at what was apparently a (failed) joke. oops
[01:38] <Rocket2DMn> well, the community docs are kind of a FFA
[01:38] <Rocket2DMn> its very difficult to keep it organized
[01:39] <abb> er....  FFA is not among my TLA vernacular
[01:39] <Rocket2DMn> free for all
[01:39] <abb> ah
[01:39] <abb> see, I know not of this "freedom" you speak, that was the confusion
[01:39] <Rocket2DMn> well this is FOSS, get used to it :)
[01:40] <abb> Is it a problem I do all my work under Vista64/Windows 7?    Ahem, but seriously folks --   I had one question that is more for my own curiosity, but I don't mean to start any emacs/vi type arguments here. :)   The q is:
[01:41] <Rocket2DMn> you can use whatever you want
[01:41] <abb> MoinMoin vs Mediawiki -- why was the former chosen, when the latter seems to be more widely established?
[01:41] <Rocket2DMn> you have Ubuntu in a VM?
[01:41] <abb> Oh, it was a joke Rocket.. sorry sorry.  I'll quit with the jokes.
[01:41] <Rocket2DMn> well, for many people, that joke is truth
[01:42] <Rocket2DMn> we dont hold it against them
[01:42] <abb> wow, that's almost quite the deep statement
[01:42] <Rocket2DMn> i still keep windows around, there is no shame in that
[01:42] <abb> Oh, no -- I understand.  I mean, that's why Ubuntu exists (one might argue) -- because there wasn't really a great alternative "for the masses" until Ubuntu, so most people are still stuck with that other OS.
[01:42] <Rocket2DMn> re: wiki engine, i'm not sure why moinmoin was chosen, i wasnt using Ubuntu at the time
[01:43] <abb> oh.
[01:43] <Rocket2DMn> i'm sure it's been discussed, you could probably find it on the doc team mailing list archives
[01:43] <abb> Ah.  I shall RTFMalingTeamArchives then.  Shouldn't be but a few thousand to sort through. :)
[01:43] <j1mc_> maybe because it is based on python, and python is so widely used in ubuntu? i'm sure that probably had something to do with it.
[01:44] <abb> Actually, I should probably think up questions and search the mailing list -- I bet I can find most answers there without having to pick your brains, though you have been very nice and openly brain-pickable.
[01:44] <Rocket2DMn> well you're certainly welcome to ask questions, can't guarantee we'll have all the answers though
[01:45] <abb> that makes perfect sense
[01:45] <abb> (the python thing)
[01:46] <abb> Well, I think I will go read some before I ask too much more -- just to avoid wasting people's time.  Though I'm sure I'll just end up generating MORE questions, darn that silly "learning more makes you realize you know less" paradox.
[01:46] <abb> Rocket2dMn -- Do I need to do anything to "sign up" or "enlist" in your Summer of Docs army?
[01:47] <abb> ^Hvolunteer group?
[01:47] <Rocket2DMn> no abb
[01:47]  * abb hopes there's no credit check involved.  
[01:47] <Rocket2DMn> I will send an email out on the mailing list when we officially start, which will probably be early May
[01:48] <abb> that would be the general docs mailing list, or if I just subscribe to the wiki list (for now) will I get it?
[01:50] <abb> Eh, no matter -- I'll subscribe to the general list.  Okay, well, thanks Rocket2DMn, jlmc, nhandler, and anyone else who offered such friendly advice/info.  Enjoy the rest of your weekends!
[01:50] <Rocket2DMn> same to you, thanks for your interest
[01:52] <abb> oh, I'm just happy that there are so many areas w/ Ubuntu where I can contribute.  (For goodness' sake, I am trying to decide "which of the many options is best for my particular skillset" -- what an embarassment of riches!)
[01:55] <Rocket2DMn> abb, i know exactly how you feel, i contribute to a number of areas
[02:15] <emorris> is the documentation team responsible for man pages, or just the help centre?
[02:16] <Rocket2DMn> we dont really do man pages, those are part of a particular package
[02:16] <emorris> ok
[02:17] <emorris> so should I say report a bug for that package and upload a patch?
[02:18] <nhandler> emorris: Yes. And if possible, you should also send the patch upsteram
[02:18] <nhandler> s/upsteram/upstream/
[02:18] <emorris> ok, thanks
[02:20] <Rocket2DMn> what package is it emorris ?
[02:20] <emorris> libsmbios-bin
[02:21] <emorris> but it was more of a general quation tbh
[05:58] <dbcummings3374> I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this question.  I am interested in joining the Ubuntu Documentation team and being helpful in whatever way I can.  I am trying to navigate the mentoring process but I am little unclear on how to begin.
[06:08] <Taim> What's unclear?  Did you start at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring ?
[06:12] <dbcummings3374> Yes.  That is where I began.  I signed up for the mailing list.  I also chose a possible task and emailed the maintainers to see if they were interested in my assistance.  I haven't received a response yet.  I wasn't sure if I was following proper procedure.  I am confused as to how the mentoring program work and how to get a project and a mentor.  I apologize for my confusion.  I really am trying to follow protocol.
[06:14] <Taim> I hear you.  I haven't navigated it either.
[06:14] <Taim> What task did you take?
[06:15] <Taim> Are you expecting it to go into Jaunty or are you looking to start work on Karmic?
[06:18] <dbcummings3374> I saw a need for some work on documentation for system-cleaner-gtk (Cruft Remover).  I think this would be for Jaunty, but as I am revisiting the task list, I am wondering if I picked something that just was an example of a possible task rather than an actual task.  I am actually willing to work on documentation for anything.  I have been an Ubuntu user for a number of years and I am now pursuing my LPIC.  I am trying to move from being a user
[06:19] <Taim> You cut off at "I am trying to move from being a user"...at least for me.
[06:21] <dbcummings3374> Sorry... here it is.  "I am trying to move from being a user to a contributor and I thought that Documentation would be a good place to get my feet wet."
[06:21] <Taim> It is.
[06:22] <dbcummings3374> OK.  I am at the actual Task List in launchpad that was referenced at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks.   This is getting a bit less confusing now.  I appreciate your patience with me.
[06:23] <Taim> For now, work on any changes to the offical documentation is over for Jaunty (with the rare exception of serious documentation flaws that would affect release).  Though, I do think translations are being worked on....Don't quote me on that :)
[06:25] <dbcummings3374> OK.  Thats helpful.  Thank you.  I am a native English speaker, but my other languages are Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew.  Neither of those are useful for translating into their modern equivalents.  I guess I will be looking into documentation for Karmic.
[06:26] <Taim> It's a good time to start learning.
[06:28] <Taim> Just remember to be self-motivated.  Here is a good spot to ask I guess.  Though I am in the boat with you (still learning).
[06:30] <dbcummings3374> I understand that.   I appreciate your assistance.  I'm actually using the Canonical courses to prepare for the LPIC.  Thats where I discovered all the different methods for getting involved and getting information.  I'll be coming in here fairly often.
[06:32] <Taim> good to hear it.
[06:32] <Taim> I am off to bed.  Have a good night.
[06:33] <dbcummings3374> You as well.