[20:58] <bodhi_zazen> back :)
[20:58] <Snova> Good timing.
[20:58] <LaRoza> bodhi_zazen: I heard you were elected to the Council?
[20:58] <LaRoza> Congratulations
[20:59] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you LaRoza :)
[20:59] <jacob> one minute eh?
[20:59] <LaRoza> bapoumba too. You too were always very patient, much more so than I.
[20:59] <LaRoza> (You two)
[21:00] <bapoumba> Hello LaRoza
[21:00] <Snova> Oh, hi bapoumba. :)
[21:00] <bapoumba> Hey Snova
[21:00] <bodhi_zazen> lol
[21:00] <LaRoza> Hello bapoumba. Congratulations to you also. I only learned of it when I went to the wiki last week
[21:00] <forumsmatthew> FC roll call. Who's here?
[21:00] <bapoumba> Thanks LaRoza
[21:01] <bapoumba> .o/
[21:01] <Technoviking> here on the IRC Satillite of Love
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> let's wait a couple of more minutes to see if KiwiNZ and ubuntu-geek can make it.
[21:03] <Suomalainen> Suomalainen here
[21:03] <Technoviking> here is the agaenda
[21:03] <Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[21:03] <bodhi_zazen> hey forumsmatthew :)
[21:04] <bapoumba> Hello bodhi_zazen btw :D
[21:04] <Rocket2DMn> i made it in time :)
[21:05] <Technoviking> While we wait for our other member, I want to welcome our new FC members  bapoumba and bodhi_zazen
[21:05] <bodhi_zazen> :p everyone
[21:05] <bapoumba> Thanks Technoviking :)
[21:05] <Technoviking> also, any of our new staff here that want to say hi
[21:05] <ibuclaw> o/
[21:05] <forestpixie> hi
[21:07] <bodhi_zazen> and thank you Technoviking :)
[21:07] <forumsmatthew> let's wait just a couple more minutes...
[21:09] <forumsmatthew> yay!
[21:09] <bodhi_zazen> schedule got full :)
[21:09] <bodhi_zazen> hey ubuntugeek :)
[21:09] <ubuntugeek> Hello, sorry I am late got pulled into a server problem :)
[21:09] <forumsmatthew> okay, I don't think Kiwi is coming, so shall we get started?
[21:09] <jdong> sure.
[21:09] <bapoumba> hello u-g :)
[21:10] <ubuntugeek> Yes, lets start
[21:10] <forumsmatthew> TV already posted it, but here's the agenda link again
[21:10] <forumsmatthew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[21:10] <Technoviking> LaRoza
[21:10] <Technoviking> Lifting of ban previously imposed on the LaRoza account, or permission to make a new account
[21:10] <LaRoza> Present
[21:10] <forumsmatthew> let's hear it
[21:11] <LaRoza> After my banning, I had not planned on trying to get it lifted
[21:11] <LaRoza> But now, after some time (and a lot of changes in RL), I would like to be able to use the forum again
[21:11] <LaRoza> At the time of my banning, I had forsaken my original purpose of using the forum (tech support). I had only used the PT section and the Cafe
[21:12] <LaRoza> After looking at the forum for a support issue (someone talked to me on IRC and sent a link), I noticed a few changes (closing of Other OS talk for one) and I was wanting to go back to giving the tech support I used to give on the forum
[21:12] <LaRoza> I do it still in RL for others (two new recent Ubuntu users) although I don't use Ubuntu anymore, it is the one I recommend to others
[21:13] <ubuntugeek> The incident that lead to the ban broke just about every rule we have in place.
[21:13] <LaRoza> Yes, I realise that now
[21:13] <LaRoza> At the time, I didn't actually.
[21:13] <LaRoza> (Which is why I didn't contest it, because I didn't understand)
[21:13] <LaRoza> But I understand now
[21:13] <LaRoza> It was very rude of me
[21:13] <LaRoza> Although it was not my intention, one shouldn't tolerate someone so oblivious to other's feelings
[21:14] <LaRoza> (Hence, the ban).
[21:14] <forumsmatthew> You didn't realize that taking personal information off of a hard drive in a computer donated to you by a staff member and then using it to access that person's account (illegally) and then brag about it on IRC was somehow against the rules? (Not to mention basic courtesy?)
[21:14] <jdong> "rude" wouldn't be my choice of terminology either...
[21:14] <LaRoza> I didn't see it as that. I never intended to access the drive and it was an accident that led to it booting the HD, and another accident which led to being logged in
[21:15] <LaRoza> I also wiped the drive right after and didn't even try to get any information off of it
[21:15] <bodhi_zazen> may I suggest we not re-hash the indecent ? we all know what happened >:)
[21:15] <LaRoza> (I didn't look at bookmarks or use the browser for anything else. It did however open with the UF logged in)
[21:15] <forumsmatthew> where does the posting from someone else's account and bragging about it on irc fit into your claim of innocence?
[21:16] <LaRoza> I didn't say I was innocent
[21:16] <ubuntugeek> -1 from me, I believe in giving people chances, but I think the incident broke any trust I have.
[21:16] <LaRoza> I said I wasn't malicious
[21:16] <bapoumba> -1 here too
[21:16] <forumsmatthew> we never thought you were malicious, just that you demonstrated terrible judgment and betrayed the trust placed in you
[21:16] <LaRoza> Yes, I agree
[21:17] <forumsmatthew> this after many discussions with you where we bent over backwards to try to help you, guide you, teach you, etc
[21:17] <ubuntugeek> OK, I think we heard would the rest of the FC vote :)
[21:17] <forumsmatthew> -1 from me
[21:17] <LaRoza> guide and teach me?
[21:17] <Technoviking> -1 here,
[21:17] <bodhi_zazen> -1 from me also, although I would also say I am happy to see you have moved on LaRoza and wish you luck in your new ventures :)
[21:17] <forumsmatthew> best wishes in real life
[21:18] <LaRoza> Oh, one more thing
[21:18] <LaRoza> You may have heard rumours about an account I use. That is false. Others made that up and they won't believe me when I say I don't use the forum...
[21:18] <forumsmatthew> okay
[21:18] <jdong> -1 from me based on the given statements...
[21:19] <LaRoza> WOuld there have been anything I could have said to get +1?
[21:19] <bapoumba> As of today ?
[21:19] <forumsmatthew> unlikely, but there is always a chance. We listened
[21:19] <ubuntugeek> Nothing from my perspective as of today, sorry.
[21:19] <LaRoza> Er, I didn't know time was a factor, but I guess so
[21:19] <bodhi_zazen> may I suggest we move on ? we have a full agenda ::)
[21:20] <jdong> I don't exactly have a dictionary of criteria for that. Just what was said didn't move me. Not today.
[21:20] <ubuntugeek> Lets move on
[21:20] <forumsmatthew> Kiwi isn't here, so let's skip the next one
[21:20] <forumsmatthew> is linuxisevolution here?
[21:20] <bodhi_zazen> kk
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> alright, next item then
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> Eliminating post/bean count entirely, except in the database, or maybe only on profile pages and not on every post's info bar.
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> we've talked about this a lot, but not done it
[21:21] <forumsmatthew> what does everyone think?
[21:21] <bodhi_zazen> +1, or at least hiding it
[21:21] <Rocket2DMn> o/
[21:22] <jdong> how will titles be handled?
[21:22] <ubuntugeek> Last I remember there was a option to hide/show it.. Is that not working?
[21:22] <bapoumba> +1, may be keep in profile (I'm undecided about that)
[21:22] <jacob> ubuntugeek: nope
[21:22] <Rocket2DMn> Why not re-enable the user's ability to hide it?
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> ubuntugeek: no , that option broke :(
[21:22] <ubuntugeek> I'd rather fix that then remove it to be honest
[21:22] <forumsmatthew> there is an option, but we had talked about removing the count entirely from public view by default
[21:22] <forumsmatthew> okay
[21:22] <Technoviking> -1 Prefer to keep the post count up, useless we could get the Thanks plugin working
[21:22] <forumsmatthew> the titles shouldn't be affected at all
[21:22] <jdong> originally my only motivation for having a postcount is for people to gauge the reputation of a person giving a response...
[21:23] <jdong> and I don't see anything that would replace that.
[21:23] <paultag> o/
[21:23] <jdong> join date doesn't quite do the same thing and as Technoviking said, thanks is gone
[21:23] <ubuntugeek> I think that post count is pretty irrelevant to ones knowledge, but I also think removing it will cause more drama then we want to deal with :) So giving the option seems the best way.
[21:23] <forumsmatthew> I'm fine with that (actually don't have much of an opinion either way, but got tired of revisiting it) :)
[21:24] <bapoumba> it would be nice to at least be able to hide again
[21:24] <ubuntugeek> OK, I'll fix that
[21:24] <bodhi_zazen> thanks :)
[21:24] <paultag> Perhaps having a Karma system, where posts can be rated up and down would work. This open the option of people marking down for disagreeing, but karma would be a good way to watching users's reputations
[21:24] <Technoviking> ubuntugeek: are we willing to try the Thank plugin again  with the new hardware, or will that be too much of a stain on the DB
[21:24] <bapoumba> it broke with mast big software upgrade
[21:24] <jdong> I'm +1 for users voluntarily being able to hide their own postcount.
[21:24] <jdong> paultag: looking at digg/slashdot/etc IMO +1/-1 systems don't do what they're intended on doing
[21:24] <forumsmatthew> jdong, +1 on hiding ability
[21:25] <ubuntugeek> Technoviking: There is NO WAY I will put that plugin back on the forums.
[21:25] <Technoviking> +1 on optional hiding
[21:25] <ubuntugeek> +1 for optional hiding, I'll fix it this week.
[21:25] <bapoumba> paultag, karma lead people to abuse it
[21:25] <bapoumba> even the thanks were abused
[21:25] <jacob> paultag: karma systems are used more for "I agree with this" rather than "this post was helpful" like it should be
[21:25] <bodhi_zazen> +1 for hiding (assuming it is possible)
[21:25] <forumsmatthew> we used to have karma enabled (a very long time ago). It didn't go well
[21:25] <ubuntugeek> The thanks plugin was poorly written, it works well for small forums. However, a forum of our size and the way the plugin works causes to much strain on the database.
[21:25] <bapoumba> +1 for hiding too
[21:26] <forumsmatthew> okay, I think we have consensus. am I right?
[21:26] <bodhi_zazen> Ah, that makes sense ubuntugeek
[21:26] <ubuntugeek> yes, lets move on
[21:26] <forumsmatthew> jacob, you here?
[21:27] <jacob> forumsmatthew: yep
[21:27] <jacob> tutorials & tips: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1119286
[21:27] <jacob> or http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/f171557d2 for non-staff
[21:27] <jacob> tl;dr: Tutorials & Tips should have a subforum visible only to staff and the OP for work-in-progress tutorials.
[21:27] <jacob> This would greatly reduce confusion between on-the-line tutorials and communication with the OP.
[21:28] <jacob> dmizer had another idea to the tutorials & tips problem at the end of that thread, linked from the first post
[21:29] <bapoumba> I agree that something needs to be done to the T&T approval process
[21:29] <forumsmatthew> if I understand the proposal correctly, and there is no guarantee of that, then the change would not actually fix the date issue on the tutorial posts, would it?
[21:29] <bodhi_zazen> T&T is a huge topic :)
[21:29] <jacob> it's quite a beefy post about it, but I don't think T&T is really as simple as it is right now
[21:29] <jacob> forumsmatthew: it would not fix that (if you mean the bumping issue)
[21:29] <forumsmatthew> precisely
[21:29] <jacob> I still don't know how to work around that
[21:30] <jacob> staff could give posts a bump once approved, I suppose
[21:30] <jacob> which would work well with any system in place
[21:30] <bodhi_zazen> I was going to suggest we encourage people to use the wiki and / or try to get a dedicated team on T&T
[21:30] <bodhi_zazen> I think our user base is more sophisticated and tutorials are more complex now
[21:31] <jacob> bodhi_zazen: yeah, but it's a lot more difficult to get people to post on the wiki if you know what I mean
[21:31] <bodhi_zazen> It seems to me we almost need to have 2 staff review submissions
[21:31] <bapoumba> and it needs to be "headed" by Staff too
[21:31] <forumsmatthew> the wiki is a great idea. I'm not sure we would be successful at convincing people to post on it (there was a concerted effort directed at that some years ago that didn't go well). It might be good to develop a T&T team
[21:31] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: +1
[21:31] <jacob> forumsmatthew: that's dmizer's idea, which definitely makes sense
[21:32] <jdong> I'd really like T&T to be a wiki based feature....
[21:32] <jdong> with some discussion mechanism linking back to the forums.
[21:32] <bapoumba> I'm sure there is a need for a T&T team
[21:32] <jdong> the forums are great for discussions. The wiki is great for maintainable guildes.
[21:32] <jdong> guides*
[21:32] <jacob> jdong: it would be nice, but getting people to actually do it is a different story
[21:32] <bapoumba> couls also bring the T of the week back on tracks
[21:32] <ubuntugeek> Sorry all I have to step out for another meeting. See you all!
[21:32] <bodhi_zazen> We could team -> transition to wiki ?
[21:32] <jacob> bye ubuntugeek
[21:32] <forumsmatthew> bye, u-g
[21:33] <bapoumba> bye ubuntugeek :)
[21:33] <bapoumba> too late..
[21:33] <jacob> bodhi_zazen: definitely possible, though it would take quite a large amount of work
[21:33] <sdennie> jdong: Having written a number of tutorials, I really prefer to have them on the forums.  The interactive nature of it helps a lot in refining the tutorial.
[21:33] <bodhi_zazen> I think people are willing to wiki if they are taught how to wiki , thus there is some effort with that too
[21:33] <ibuclaw> sdennie++
[21:33] <forumsmatthew> bodhi_zazen, that was done internally once with a project we called the UDSF (ask compiledkernel). If we get volunteers to train people to use the official wiki, it might work
[21:33] <jacob> the wiki doesn't allow us to moderate tutorials for that matter, but that might not be relevant since they would be on a different site
[21:33] <bodhi_zazen> I am not sure about eliminating T&T, rather promoting wiki as well
[21:34] <forumsmatthew> I like having the content on the forums, though
[21:34] <forumsmatthew> if produced by forums people, they generally feel more comfortable here
[21:34] <forumsmatthew> moving them to the official wiki would connect us to the greater community, though, and certainly be appreciated (hopefully...)
[21:34] <jdong> sdennie: well I hope that the interactive part can be captured in a discussion thread
[21:34] <jdong> sdennie: I think this is one of those cases that needs a hybrid approach.
[21:34] <jacob> bodhi_zazen: +1, I would definitely like to se an effort to copy/move some to the wiki, though IMO they should stay in T&T
[21:35] <bodhi_zazen> I am not sure about moving posts to wiki
[21:35] <bapoumba> forums people usually like and prefer writing on forums :)
[21:35] <bodhi_zazen> but wiki has a number of advantages and we should use those as well
[21:35] <bapoumba> or they would already wiki their production
[21:35] <ShadowChild> bapoumba, +1
[21:36] <sdennie> jdong: Possibly.  A wikipedia style approach with the content and discussion would work but, it doesn't really address that a lot of the tutorials are very technical in nature and questions, rather than discussion arise.
[21:36] <bodhi_zazen> I like t&t on the forums though, and I do not see eliminating that section
[21:36] <Technoviking> I like keeping T&T but prompted publishing items there to the wiki
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> The advantage of having posts on the forums is that they can easily fade away when they are no longer applicable - its obvious how old they are
[21:36] <ibuclaw> jdong, I think people just feel an overall "more relaxed" about posting tutorials on the forums in general... As opposed to when using wiki, there is an uncomfortable formalness around everything you do.
[21:37] <forumsmatthew> this is what I am hearing: the current system isn't ideal and we want to do something to help it. We don't really think that the main idea would be helpful, but getting a team together to make it more efficient might. Possibly using some sort of collaboration with the wiki team would be good, too.
[21:37] <jacob> ibuclaw: agreed
[21:37] <Rocket2DMn> I love the wiki, but stuff tends to get abandoned there when not maintained
[21:37] <forumsmatthew> Rocket2DMn, yep
[21:37] <bodhi_zazen> +1 forumsmatthew :)
[21:37] <bapoumba> forumsmatthew, we used to have K.Mandla take care of most of it :)
[21:37] <bapoumba> and it worked well
[21:38] <bapoumba> because they spent a lot of time for T&T
[21:38] <bodhi_zazen> I think we should make a collaborative effort
[21:38] <jdong> Rocket2DMn: the asme thing happens with forum howto's
[21:38] <forumsmatthew> my opinion: I would rather look for someone willing to head up sorting through T&T regularly and who will develop a team to work alongside them
[21:38] <jacob> forumsmatthew: +1 - though should we do anything about the moderation in T&T right now if we're to be encouraging posting on the wiki?
[21:38] <jdong> Rocket2DMn: the wiki IMO makes it easier to maintain but that doesn't mean people will do it
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> yes jdong , but like i said, you can easily see their age just by looking at the date
[21:38] <jdong> forming a team around it is probably a better idea.
[21:38] <jdong> Rocket2DMn: the wiki is similarly marked at the bottom of each page
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> jdong, only for the latest update to the page, which doesnt really mean anything
[21:39] <forumsmatthew> I don't want to change the moderation for now. Let's see if a leader emerges and a team develops and revisit the issue once that is in place
[21:39] <bodhi_zazen> I think it has grown to be too large for just one person, let along the depth of technical knowledge in some of them :)
[21:39] <bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, +1
[21:39] <bodhi_zazen> And that is really the problem
[21:39] <bapoumba> we need several persons to take care of it
[21:39] <jacob> right
[21:39] <bapoumba> I am guilty as can be..
[21:39] <bodhi_zazen> we need a team and process to review T&T with regularity
[21:40] <sdennie> I like the team idea too
[21:40] <bapoumba> (I only move out support questions..)
[21:40] <jacob> same
[21:40]  * jdong agrees with the team idea
[21:40] <forumsmatthew> proposal: one FC member steps up now and takes responsibility for leading the search for a team leader, helping them understand what we are thinking, and we go from there
[21:40] <bodhi_zazen> How about setting a goal, weekly thread on T&T in the que and we can see how the team develops ?
[21:41] <Rocket2DMn> You could do a T&T Hug Day, like they do for bugs :)
[21:41] <jacob> forumsmatthew: sounds good, anything to clean it up from what it is now :)
[21:41] <jacob> Rocket2DMn: heh, that could actually work
[21:41] <ibuclaw> Rocket2DMn, haha
[21:41] <bapoumba> but the current T&T, before approval, are hidden
[21:42] <bapoumba> so it needs to be a staff team?
[21:42] <forumsmatthew> jacob, not yet, let's start slowly and see where each change takes us. We know what we have to deal with as things are. Let's only introduce unknowns slowly as we move on
[21:42] <bapoumba> or do we revisit the status of T&T section ?
[21:42] <forumsmatthew> we could make it a non-staff team that gets mod abilities in just that forum
[21:42] <jacob> forumsmatthew: right - that's fine, I would just like to see it get cleaned up eventually
[21:42] <forumsmatthew> me to
[21:42] <bapoumba> yeah, +1
[21:43] <forumsmatthew> do we have a consensus?
[21:43] <bapoumba> I think so
[21:43] <bodhi_zazen> no, just some good ideas :)
[21:43] <bapoumba> eheh :)
[21:44] <forumsmatthew> shall we start by finding a leader? and if so, who will be responsible to head that search and report to the FC so we can move ahead?
[21:44] <bodhi_zazen> I think start by asking for volunters from the staff, of people willing to dedicate so much time / week on T&T ?
[21:44] <bodhi_zazen> 1-2 hours ?
[21:44] <bodhi_zazen> that will generate a team -> go from there
[21:44] <jacob> I might be able to get something going
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> lol, Staff Focus Group
[21:45] <jacob> Rocket2DMn: :P
[21:45] <Rocket2DMn> those not on the BT didnt understand :(
[21:45] <Snova> Ha.
[21:45] <jacob> Rocket2DMn: who isn't on BT these days? ;)
[21:45] <forumsmatthew> sounds good to me. use the staff forum, jacob, to start the discussion with others who aren't here, and we will let you head up the development
[21:45] <forumsmatthew> all in favor?
[21:45] <forumsmatthew> +1
[21:45] <bapoumba> some people resist the BT ;)
[21:46] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[21:46] <Technoviking> +1
[21:46] <bapoumba> +1
[21:46] <sdennie> I've neglected my duties in T&T but, would be willing to spend some more time there.  ibuclaw would also be another good person.
[21:46] <Rocket2DMn> give all the work to jacob +1 :)
[21:46] <jacob> sounds good ;)
[21:46] <forumsmatthew> jdong?
[21:46] <bapoumba> I think dmizer should be interested too
[21:46] <jacob> bapoumba: definitely
[21:47] <jdong> ack sorry
[21:47] <jdong> +1
[21:47] <bodhi_zazen> cal also ;P
[21:47] <forumsmatthew> great! let's move on to our last item--congrats, jacob!
[21:47] <forumsmatthew> suomalainen, are you here?
[21:47] <bapoumba> congrats jacob :)
[21:47] <jacob> heh, thanks
[21:47] <Suomalainen> yes I'm here.
[21:47] <forumsmatthew> what's going on?
[21:48] <bodhi_zazen> and what do you expect from the forums ?
[21:48] <forumsmatthew> how can we help you?
[21:49] <Suomalainen> I created a thread called "Skype Video Screen not functioning properly." which got some good responses. but then i started to receive responses saying I said things that I never said and I made note of that to the posters.
[21:49] <Suomalainen> Also, I'd like to say thank you for asking me to come here today  to speak.
[21:50] <forumsmatthew> did you report the posts? (You can do so to alert staff to problems by pressing the button that looks like this http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/report.gif )
[21:50] <bodhi_zazen> Suomalainen: when that happens, rather then argue with people, just report the post
[21:50] <Technoviking> Suomalainen: I read though both the Skype post and xo.org post. While some of forums members who responded to your post could have been more tactful
[21:51] <forumsmatthew> I do see where staff stepped in at post 20 and asked everyone to calm down, not to make personal attacks or debate those attacks, and to keep a professional attitude.
[21:51] <forumsmatthew> is there something else you would have liked for someone to have done?
[21:51] <Technoviking> I think you blew their comments our of proportion.
[21:52] <bodhi_zazen> Suomalainen: I would also like to point out you are asking about 3rd party applications / hardware
[21:52] <Suomalainen> I did use the button to report post.
[21:52] <forumsmatthew> great! that would explain why a forum staff member stepped in to calm the situation
[21:52] <Suomalainen> Also, when I'm told my country doesn't use english as PRIMARY language,,,  well........
[21:52] <forumsmatthew> that is an excellent first step
[21:52] <bodhi_zazen> and when those 3rd party apps / hardware do not work as you expect, you appear to rant @ the ubuntu community ;)
[21:53] <jdong> Suomalainen: you don't have to respond to such inappropriate insulting statements towards you. Ignore them, report them, etc and we will deal with it
[21:53] <jdong> Suomalainen: engaging the trolls always makes things escalate
[21:53] <forumsmatthew> that was before the staff member stepped in the first time
[21:53] <bodhi_zazen> not that that is a wrong attitude, it just causes "flame wars" so to speak
[21:53] <Suomalainen> The post for help from mod wasn't made at that time.
[21:54] <forumsmatthew> he posted after the remark that you were unhappy about. Then, you posted a long response that wasn't pleasant, so he stepped in again
[21:54] <forumsmatthew> I'm reading the thread now
[21:55] <Suomalainen> I like Ubuntu very much and I advocate to others Ubuntu. I was told that I back slapped the Ubuntu community and this is entirely untre.
[21:55] <Suomalainen> untre=untrue.
[21:55] <forumsmatthew> you took great offense to a comment that should not have been made, but your reaction is excessive. Someone came to your defense to calm the situation. It was being dealt with.
[21:56] <forumsmatthew> question, Suomalainen: do you have a second user account on the forums named lentomies?
[21:56] <bapoumba> Suomalainen, may I ask you if you have other accounts on UF ?
[21:57] <bapoumba> Lol !
[21:57] <Suomalainen> When you read my post others came to offer me help. Genuine help. I used this help and said thank you and reported my results. But then the make believe came into play and things were said about me and what I said that just should not have been stated.
[21:58] <Suomalainen> Yes I have another account the user is Lentomies.
[21:58] <forumsmatthew> and, as I stated, a staff member had intervened
[21:58] <Suomalainen> When you research that accout it is rarely used.
[21:58] <forumsmatthew> it is forbidden by the code of conduct for members to have more than one account. which do you want to keep?
[21:58] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I have also reviewed the posts and I must say I found some of your posts to be informatory as well Suomalainen :)
[21:58] <bapoumba> you know we do not allow users have several accounts, do you ?
[21:58] <bodhi_zazen> I see several people offering you advice as well
[21:58] <forumsmatthew> "inflammatory" is what I think bapoumba meant
[21:59] <Suomalainen> With Your permission I would like to keep my Suomalainen account if acceptable.
[21:59] <forumsmatthew> that would be fine. I'll disable the other account
[21:59] <forumsmatthew> back to the real issue: a staff member intervened. What more did you want to happen?
[22:00] <jdong> Suomalainen: In addition, you mentioned that you've attempted to reach us but attempts have "only fallen on deaf ears" in your words. I'm a bit concerned about that -- how did you try to reach us?
[22:00] <Suomalainen> And then I made another thread called "Are you an XORG.CONF file Expert???" and these guys follow me to here too and recall issues that happenen in this original post.
[22:00] <bodhi_zazen> I think things will go well with you Suomalainen if you try not to over react to the bad behavior of others, ie do not make a bad situation worse, and report bad behavior, ie allow the staff to handle bad behavior
[22:00] <forumsmatthew> you haven't answered my question
[22:00] <forumsmatthew> I'll discuss the second thread after you answer the question about the first
[22:01] <Suomalainen> I tried to reach nmoderators as this situation was occuring using the "report" button but nobody contacted me or came to my aid. Please go into my account and see.
[22:01] <bapoumba> we have your reports, no problem
[22:01] <forumsmatthew> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1121621
[22:01] <bodhi_zazen> I have to get to another meeting :)
[22:01] <forumsmatthew> bye, bodhi_zazen
[22:01] <bapoumba> cheers bodhi :)
[22:02] <bapoumba> most of the reports were discussed in the staff report area
[22:02] <Suomalainen> forumsmattew. I apologise. Could you please repeat the question?
[22:02] <forumsmatthew> I see lots of polite and helpful responses. Then, in post 8 you rudely imply that no one helping you is adequate. A staff member posted to this effect in post 10
[22:02] <bapoumba> and other reports were regarding your own posts, do you realize that ?
[22:02] <forumsmatthew> and gives you more good advice
[22:02] <bodhi_zazen> I will add that I think you are over reacting Suomalainen on the xorg thread
[22:03] <forumsmatthew> instead of discussing the issue, you disappear as you did in the first thread
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> I do not see any bad behavior by others on that thread, only attempts to help you and some good advice
[22:03] <bapoumba> no follow up, no indication the offered solutions worked or not
[22:03] <forumsmatthew> your reports were seen, but you were the one who was determined to be impatient and less than polite
[22:03] <forumsmatthew> what did you want us to do to help you?
[22:04] <forumsmatthew> that is the same as the previously unanswered question on the first thread
[22:04] <forumsmatthew> how do you perceive that we failed you?
[22:04] <Suomalainen> YOu lost me. Please back up and tell me where we are....
[22:04] <forumsmatthew> what should have been done that was not done?
[22:05] <forumsmatthew> In either case, what were you expecting to happen that did not happen?
[22:05] <forumsmatthew> what reasonable thing could/should staff have done to help you that was not done?
[22:06] <forumsmatthew> I'm rephrasing repeatedly for clarity to make sure you know what I am asking.
[22:06] <forumsmatthew> We are listening. We listened earlier. What help did you want or expect that was not forthcoming?
[22:06] <Suomalainen> In my original post. Iasked for help and got some good ideas. I reported those results and thanked the poster. But when my words are taken out of contexts or I'm told that I said something that wasn't said and then country is brought into the fold, well......
[22:07] <forumsmatthew> that was dealt with when the staff member posted in the thread in post 20
[22:07] <forumsmatthew> what MORE did you want him/us to do?
[22:07] <jdong> you've told us that several times, but that doesn't answer forumsmatthew's question.
[22:07] <jdong> what specifically did you expect the staff to have done, and what was done instead?
[22:08] <forumsmatthew> you are acting hurt. I'm sorry you feel hurt. But your anger is misdirected. We came to your aid.
[22:08] <forumsmatthew> unless there is something new to add, I'm not sure there is anything else we need to do/discuss here.
[22:09] <Suomalainen> How could I go on with that post when it went the direction it did. I left it because nobody would want to read it. I tried asking to have line items deleted but I never heard from anyone.
[22:09] <bapoumba> you were expecting we edit the posts, am I correct ?
[22:09] <forumsmatthew> the posts were dealt with. They didn't require deletion. The thread was still active and help was ready for you. You left
[22:09] <Suomalainen> and then my other posts were taken over by same persons and they state to world things not true.
[22:10] <forumsmatthew> no, that is not accurate. you may believe it, but I don't see what you are describing at all.
[22:10] <forumsmatthew> I see helpful people giving advice and you freaking out
[22:10] <jdong> I see a person stating that he was frustrated he attempted to provide detailed help and got a reply asking for an "expert" to respond.
[22:10] <Suomalainen> I ask specific question xorg.conf file and then told things that don't even have to do with my question.
[22:11] <Suomalainen> And if advice is offered I'm not even told what running such commnds means.
[22:11] <jdong> I didn't see you ask about that?
[22:12] <bapoumba> I went back to reading threads, and you had goods advices given to you
[22:13] <Suomalainen> I would not use advice coming from  a person that say's I mada a statement that never was said. I would not use advice that is coming from person thinking his language is better than mind. How do you trust?????
[22:13] <forumsmatthew> I reread the threads, people were giving on-topic, applicable advice to you
[22:14] <forumsmatthew> I'm going to say this as gently as a text-only medium will allow: I think you have trust issues, I think you are easily offended, and I think those are the cause of the problem.
[22:14] <forumsmatthew> Sorry, I don't see anything that the staff did wrong here.
[22:14] <Suomalainen> making thinkd up is not a way of doing business or using advice.... You need to be fearful under such circumstances.
[22:15] <forumsmatthew> I disagree with the premise, so the conclusion is one I cannot accept
[22:15] <Technoviking> Suomalainen: This is community support, people volenteer there time to help other users on the forums out of a love for Ubuntu.
[22:15] <bapoumba> I would say that you started what is a small issue
[22:15] <Suomalainen> These guys were making things up. It's in black and white. You don't see this?
[22:16] <bapoumba> all was good up to one post of yours
[22:16] <Technoviking> it is not perfect solution, but it work very well in most cases.
[22:16] <Suomalainen> Are you kidding me?
[22:16] <sdennie> Suomalainen: As a general rule, I think it's ok to distrust advice you don't understand.  If you don't understand it, ask for an explanation of it.  If one isn't given, you can try to figure out the advice or continue to distrust it.
[22:17] <Suomalainen> Things were being said that I never said... This is were the problems started to come from. Then the attack on country.... Not to warm spirit.....
[22:17] <Technoviking> Suomalainen: If you are not getting support that works for you in the Ubuntu Forums, or can try the irc support channel #ubuntu and launchpad answer
[22:17] <jdong> After reading through your post history and the responses you solicited, along with the reported post queues, I agree with matthew.
[22:17] <Technoviking> https://answers.launchpad.net/
[22:18] <forumsmatthew> good suggestion
[22:18] <Technoviking> Different channel resources work better for different people.
[22:18] <forumsmatthew> I vote we move end the meeting with a statement of resolution. All who feel the matter resolved give a +1
[22:18] <forumsmatthew> +1
[22:18] <Technoviking> Suomalainen: You may want to check out you local Ubuntu Loco team, maybe someone local could help you better
[22:19] <Technoviking> +1
[22:19] <Suomalainen> So Your telling me that I can't use Ubuntu forum because these guys will be allowed to invade my posts. Threaten me.. and nothing I can do about it?????
[22:19] <bapoumba> +1
[22:19] <bapoumba> noone threatened you Suomalainen
[22:19] <forumsmatthew> you aren't banned. alternatives were suggested that you may feel more comfortable using since you don't feel comfortable with the help in the forums
[22:19] <jdong> who is threatening you?
[22:19] <Suomalainen> oh really. Did you read the post the second thread?????
[22:20] <jdong> yes. I did.
[22:20] <bapoumba> yes
[22:20] <jdong> you openly ignored someone's advice and asked for an "expert" instead
[22:20] <jdong> frankly you were the one displaying a disrespectful attitude.
[22:20] <Technoviking> Suomalainen: You can use the forums, but you need understand that the forums are open to discussion
[22:20] <Suomalainen> That was different topic.
[22:21] <forumsmatthew> we are going in circles. back to the vote. We have three +1s
[22:21] <bapoumba> Suomalainen, I will quote one of the persons you are thinking were not correct with you: I don't get you - people try to help and you jump all over them.
[22:21] <jdong> You also aggressively chose to undermine the documented community processes for dealing with these conflicts
[22:21] <ubuntugeek> +1
[22:21] <jdong> and I am still fairly dissatisfied with that.
[22:21] <jdong> +1.
[22:21] <forumsmatthew> okay. thanks everyone for your time
[22:22] <forumsmatthew> it is appreciated
[22:22] <forumsmatthew> I'll clean up the wiki agenda page now
[22:22] <forumsmatthew> bye, all!
[22:22] <bapoumba> bye :)
[22:22] <ShadowChild> Bye.
[22:22] <ubuntugeek> See ya you all..
[22:41] <winrid> Hello
[22:42] <winrid> Is the meeting over?
[22:42] <ScottK> Yes
[22:42] <winrid> Damn
[22:42] <winrid> Did they discuss me?
[22:42] <ScottK> Dunno.  Check irclogs.ubuntu.com.
[22:43] <winrid> Sorry I was late but I was busy and didn't pay attention to the time...
[22:43] <Snova> Are you linuxisevolution?
[22:43] <winrid> Yes
[22:43] <Snova> No.
[22:43] <winrid> ?
[22:43] <Snova> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/04/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[22:43] <Snova> You weren't here, so...
[22:45] <bittin^`> Are there an Ubuntu Events / Meeting Mailinglist?
[22:45] <winrid> Snova: did they have a discussion about me or was I not even mentioned?
[22:46] <Snova> winrid: They asked if you were here; you weren't, they moved on. Should be in the logs.
[22:46] <bittin^`> 21:20	forumsmatthew	is linuxisevolution here?
[22:46] <bittin^`> 21:20	bodhi_zazen	kk
[22:46] <bittin^`> 21:21	forumsmatthew	alright, next item then
[22:47] <winrid> I see...
[22:47] <winrid> When is next meeting?
[22:47] <Snova> They aren't set.
[22:47] <winrid> ahh
[22:47] <Snova> When there is one, this page will be updated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[22:47] <winrid> How often do they happen?
[22:47] <Snova> I suggest you subscribe to it.
[22:47] <Snova> No idea.
[22:48] <winrid> I can't subscribe I am banned from forums. That's why I am here.
[22:48] <Snova> If you subscribe to that page, you'll be notified when it is changed, so you'll get an email eventually for their next meeting.
[22:48] <Snova> wiki page, not forum thread.
[22:48] <bittin^`> then you must done something?
[22:48] <winrid> oh
[22:48] <winrid> My mistake
[22:48] <bittin^`> or does Ubuntu Forums ban ppl by no reason :o
[22:48] <Snova> Just need a wiki user... which I believe is tied into Launchpad login, not sure.
[22:49] <winrid> bitten^: They ban people for reasons, yes, but for odd reasons sometimes
[22:49] <bittin^`> ;o
[22:49] <Snova> bittin^`: Oh sure, they pick random user ID's out of a roulette wheel when they're bored. :)
[22:49] <bittin^`> i never been active on the international Ubuntu Forums
[22:49] <bittin^`> only the swedish ones
[22:49] <winrid> What happened was I posted an insulting image by accident, my mother told me to go to bed, and I couldn't fix it until morning. By then I was already banned.
[22:50] <winrid> Snova & Bitten^: No, only me :)
[22:50] <Snova> Something like that would probably be reversed, but I can't say. Just subscribe to the page, I guess.
[22:50] <winrid> Thanks
[22:50] <winrid> I was working on my novel and time just flies...
[22:51] <winrid> I have the page bookmarked
[22:52] <Snova> Yes, but then you have to check it. :P More reliable to subscribe to it; you just get a few emails now and then.
[22:52] <Snova> Also, if you forget to check it, even for a few days... I only got the meeting notice one or two days ago.
[22:52] <bittin^`> its always fun to been in Linux meetings :)
[22:53] <bittin^`> are there an Mailing List for all Ubuntu Events or should i add the Google Calender(?)
[22:55] <winrid> K i subscribe
[22:55] <winrid> Oh, I was already subscribed
[22:56] <winrid> Does everyone here use Ubuntu? I find that hard to believe for some reason..
[22:56] <Snova> Given the fact that there are 134 people in here, I doubt it. Also, this is an official meeting channel, so hush. :P
[22:57] <winrid> Oh, right..
[22:57] <bittin^`> i actully more use Kubuntu
[22:57] <bittin^`> nowdays
[22:57] <Snova> Same thing, different DE.
[22:57] <winrid> I think the admins are long gone though.. :(
[22:57] <bittin^`> Snova: true tough
[22:57] <Snova> Oh, they cleared out fast. :)
[22:57] <winrid> Snova: I know
[22:57] <bittin^`> tough i use many distros
[22:58] <bittin^`> on diffrent computers :p
[22:58] <winrid> Me too
[22:58] <winrid> Windows is on my calculator
[22:58] <winrid> lol well I call it my foot stool/ calculator
[22:58] <bittin^`> i use Kubuntu at my grand parents place
[22:58] <winrid> Must be Grand.
[22:58] <bittin^`> used alot off Ubuntu some years when i was new to Linux tough
[22:59] <winrid> A lot of people do.
[22:59] <bittin^`> for 1-2years tough its not my first distro
[22:59] <winrid> I actually think Pclinuxos Is better with the gui configurations and stuff... But Ubuntu is getting there.
[22:59] <bittin^`> my first was OpenSuse
[22:59] <winrid> My first was Ubuntu 6.10 that I bought from Ebay while looking for winxp
[23:00] <bittin^`> u bought Ubuntu :o
[23:00] <winrid> Yes
[23:00] <winrid> I didn't know what it was at the time, I just knew it was better than Windows ME.
[23:00] <bittin^`> :)
[23:00] <bittin^`> but windows me sux :(
[23:01] <winrid> You suck windows :-/
[23:01] <winrid> ?
[23:01] <bittin^`> huh(?)
[23:01] <winrid> You said "windows me sux"
[23:01] <bittin^`> windows ME*
[23:01] <bittin^`> lol
[23:01] <winrid> oh lol
[23:01] <bittin^`> ah
[23:01] <nhandler> winrid and bittin^`: Could you please move this discussion to a different channel? This channel is meant for meetings, and many people log this channel
[23:01] <winrid> Sorry
[23:02] <bittin^`> yes #ubuntu-offtopic sounds like a good channel
[23:02] <winrid> Not many people are on here. I go, sorry.
[23:02] <winrid> Meet you there bittin
[23:02] <bittin^`> sorry
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> Thanks Snova and bittin^` ;)
[23:12] <bodhi_zazen> if you see winrid again , yes he can subscribe to the wiki, lol
[23:12] <Snova> Apparently he already was...