[15:03] <persia> Who's here for the Java Team meeting?
[15:04] <ttx> o/
[15:05] <persia> OK.  First up, congrats everyone on the work during the Jaunty cycle.
[15:07] <ttx> \o/
[15:07] <persia> Next up: agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[15:07] <persia> Nothing special
[15:10] <persia> Roadmap:
[15:10] <persia> robilad isn't here.  slytherin isn't here.
[15:10] <persia> I failed to kill Sun Java 5 :(
[15:10] <persia> I'll try again next cycle.
[15:10] <ttx> it can run but it cannot hide.
[15:11] <persia> ttx, Any updates on Contents?  Based on your blog post, I wonder if that's complete.
[15:11] <ttx> yes, it's complete. I will plug it in a packaging training session sometime in May, but otherwise it's done
[15:13] <persia> OK.  We'll leave it on the roadmap until then.
[15:14] <persia> Attracting new Java packagers?
[15:14] <ttx> I will (try to) to a packaging session sometime in May, hopefully it will demystify the whole thing
[15:14] <ttx> s/to a/do a/
[15:15] <persia> Makes sense.
[15:15] <persia> ludovicc is not here
[15:15] <persia> OK.  Anyone have anything else to add?
[15:16] <persia> OK.
[15:17] <persia> I'll be adding "Specs" to the agenda for next week.  If anyone is planning to put together a Java-related spec, please bring it to the meeting.
[15:17] <persia> See you next Thursday
[15:17] <ttx> yes, good point
[15:17] <ttx> unfortunately I won't be here next week
[15:18] <ttx> I already have a blueprint about eucalyptus-javadeps refactoring:
[15:18] <ttx> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-euca-javadeps-refactoring
[15:18] <ttx> that's my only java-related spec atm
[15:20] <persia> Well, we'll probably want to postpone that until the first meeting in May then.
[15:20] <persia> Maybe some other people will raise some as well.
[15:22] <ttx> your call. Just plug mine in the discussion if I am not around :)
[15:22] <persia> OK :)
[17:59] <dholbach> hello everybody
[17:59] <dholbach> geser, nixternal, soren, jpds, nhandler, persia: who of you is around?
[18:00] <dholbach> ember, statik, bdrung, imbrandon: are you guys around?
[18:00] <statik> hi dholbach
[18:00]  * ember waves
[18:00] <bdrung> dholbach: yes :)
[18:00] <imbrandon> heya dholbach
[18:00]  * persia is about
[18:01] <imbrandon> sorry bandwidth is a bit low, seeding some release torrents :)
[18:01] <imbrandon> so i may lag a tiny bit
[18:01] <dholbach> hehe :)
[18:02] <persia> I'll also admit to not expecting to make this meeting, and not having reviewed people as in-depth as I'd like.
[18:02] <dholbach> geser, soren, nixternal?
[18:02]  * dholbach thinks that nhandler is probably not going to be around and jpds en route to a release party
[18:03] <imbrandon> nixternal: should be around unless he is already drinking :)
[18:03] <ScottK> That doesn't preclude him being around.
[18:03] <imbrandon> but its only noon in our timezone so i doubt he is *yet*
[18:03] <imbrandon> lol ScottK :)
[18:04]  * soren is here.
[18:04]  * geser is here
[18:04] <dholbach> ah awesome!
[18:04] <imbrandon> on a side note i get my new ( freelance ) office today
[18:04] <persia> OK.  That's four of us.
[18:04] <dholbach> perfect
[18:04] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[18:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is dholbach.
[18:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:05] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Pedro Fragoso
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Pedro Fragoso
[18:05] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PedroFragoso
[18:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PedroFragoso
[18:05] <dholbach> ember: how are you doing?
[18:05] <ember> good !
[18:05] <ember> bit nervous :p
[18:05] <nixternal> yo yo
[18:05] <dholbach> ember: don't worry :)
[18:06] <dholbach> ember: so how's life in Ubuntu Desktop land? how did the last GNOME releases go into Ubuntu? anything problematic?
[18:06] <ember> the life is ubuntu desktop is awesome
[18:07] <ember> this 2.26.x looks quite stable
[18:07] <geser> wait till dholbach gets out his bbq sauce :)
[18:07] <dholbach> geser: errr, huh? :-)
[18:07] <ember> and Desktop Team is already doing some SRU's to polish missing bugs
[18:07] <geser> re "don't worry" (was a little bit late)
[18:08] <ember> lol
[18:08] <dholbach> ember: oh nice... you guys are unstoppable :)
[18:08] <dholbach> ember: is there any specific applications on the desktop that you like best to look after?
[18:08] <dholbach> ember: also in terms of bug reports?
[18:08] <pace_t_zulu> there are still some gnome-panel issues in 2.26 when changing screen resolution
[18:09] <ember> dholbach: as you notice i'm usually taking care of brasero sound-juicer gnome-themes gtk2-engines
[18:09] <ember> and know hamster-applet
[18:09] <ember> *now
[18:09] <dholbach> pace_t_zulu: best to speak to the folks in #ubuntu-desktop about that :)
[18:09] <ember> and tomboy!
[18:09] <persia> ember, Many of the testimonials on your wiki page talk about rushing.  How do you plan to address that perception?
[18:09] <pace_t_zulu> will do... i have written my own workaround for it for the time being
[18:09] <pace_t_zulu> but i'd like to land a fix for Karmic
[18:09] <ember> persia: i had that problem in the beginning
[18:10] <dholbach> pace_t_zulu: we're in a meeting right now, which is why I suggested it :-)
[18:10] <ember> and the rush resulted in some missing test builds and etc
[18:10] <ember> noawadays i focus on some packages or on packages the desktop needs help
[18:10] <ember> and improved my testing and interaction with the desktop team
[18:10] <pace_t_zulu> dholbach: apologies, I saw someone ask about ubuntu desktop... i thought i'd bring up a user experience issue
[18:10] <dholbach> ember: and for those packages, how is your contact with the upstream people?
[18:11] <dholbach> pace_t_zulu: no worries :)
[18:11] <persia> ember: Right.  It's just that it's mentioned by several people in your application, so while I suspect you've improved massively, what do you plan to do to ensure these issues stay gone when there is nobody reviewing your work?
[18:11] <ember> dholbach: is pretty good actually
[18:12] <ember> brasero upstream have one portuguese so its easy for me
[18:12] <ember> hamster-applet are really nice guys too
[18:13] <ember> persia: i've improved a lot actually, in jaunty the only FTFBS i had was a missing bzr add of a patch to fix FTBFS
[18:13] <ember> i'm using a lot of vm, chroots, a testing lap, piuparts etc
[18:14] <persia> ember.  I'm confident of your improvement: I'm just wondering about your strategy for testing prior to upload (in some detail).
[18:15] <ember> persia: right now before requesting for sponsoring i'm using pbuilder on my main desktop, dpkg-build on a clean install, piuparts
[18:15] <ember> a installation on a clean install on a old lap
[18:15] <nixternal> ember: I had that same problem when I first got started, the "rushing", and let me just say, you aren't the only one that has had it, I am witnessing a lot of people now doing it as well..it is tough to overcome, however your last statement about using the vm, chroots, *a testing laptop*, and piuparts is exactly the remedy...i prefer real hardware over vm, but vm works just as well
[18:16] <dholbach> geser, soren: do you have any questions for ember?
[18:16] <persia> ember, Indeed.  That does sound like a comprehensive testing regimen :)
[18:16] <ember> persia: its a MUST!
[18:16] <geser> no questions
[18:17] <geser> from me
[18:17] <dholbach> persia, nixternal: anything more from you?
[18:17] <persia> ember, Also, we typically ask applicants to specify something the don't like about Ubuntu: in part this is to identify things that need fixing, and in part this is to provide some idea of where someone is motivated to tackle a larger issue.
[18:17] <ember> nixternal: yeah i sure prefer hardware over vm
[18:17] <nixternal> ember: with that said, there are also times where you might feel a bit rushed..what I do when that happens to me, is ask for some help...I was rushed with the last kubuntu-docs package, luckily for me it turned out good kind of :)
[18:17] <persia> As it's not in your app, would you mind sharing now?
[18:18] <nixternal> persia: good catch, I would like to know as well
[18:18] <ember> persia: the only thing i think it's need fixing
[18:18] <ember> it's about claiming updates on the desktop-team
[18:18] <ember> i think huats or didrocks already mention that
[18:18] <persia> Could you explain the problem, and how you think it could be addressed?
[18:19] <ember> well when i first started to update package we used a wiki page
[18:19] <ember> but when new contributors started to appear that become quite problematic
[18:19] <nixternal> i think i know exactly what he is talking about...it is both good and bad
[18:19] <nixternal> yup
[18:19] <ember> so we started claiming on the irc channel
[18:20] <ember> which sometimes and to new contributors isn't working
[18:20] <ember> norsetto tried to fix the problem creating a webpage to address this
[18:20] <nixternal> ember: how did the webpage work out?
[18:21] <ember> http://norsetto.890m.com/desktop_packages.php
[18:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://norsetto.890m.com/desktop_packages.php
[18:21] <nixternal> it seemed to have worked for the Kubuntu crowd in Jaunty this go round, but I don't think Kubuntu has that large of a problem when compared to Ubuntu Desktop
[18:21] <ember> nixternal: it's didn't work
[18:21] <nixternal> ya, that problem is a tough one to fix
[18:21] <ember> we kinda need a system to people claim updates
[18:21] <ember> and also check the previous upload or people who usually uploads
[18:22] <ember> and also if the package is in sync with Debian
[18:22] <nixternal> right, like if Merge-O-Matic was a bit more interractive, that might help?
[18:22] <ember> nixternal: that would help too
[18:22] <persia> ember, OK.  How do you think the problem should be solved, and what do you plan to do to assist with that solution?
[18:22] <ember> i think huats and didrocks along with seb are going to discuss this in UDS
[18:23] <nixternal> I know there were packages that I needed to fix, but somebody grabbed them and updated before I could touch them upstream or in Debian....so I totally understand the problem
[18:23] <ember> persia: i think we can improve the webpage in that direction
[18:24] <ember> and i plan to assist in every way i can, i'm going to use it too.
[18:25] <dholbach> no questions from me... soren, nixternal, persia?
[18:25] <ember> nixternal: we usually have some package we really don't touch, only sync
[18:25] <nixternal> right, I am good dholbach
[18:25] <soren> No, I'm happy :)
[18:26] <persia> ember, One last question: you say you plan to help with the sponsoring queue: what makes a good submission?
[18:26] <nixternal> the problem that ember stated, might be something for the greater development community to discuss, as I have witnessed it now for a while with no simple fix unfortunately
[18:27] <persia> nixternal, Agreed.  If there's not a UDS discussion, it's probably worth taking to ubuntu-devel@ (and if there is, leveraging that discussion widely)
[18:27] <ember> persia: i plan to started working on sponsoring, mainly on updates/or patchs that fix a bug
[18:27] <ScottK> I did sponsor one upload from ember and it was good (hamster-applet, I think).
[18:27] <ember> and share the knowledge
[18:28] <nixternal> heh, already updates on release day :)
[18:28] <ember> ScottK: yes you uploaded hamster-applet with code from upstream to use notifications
[18:28] <persia> ember, I understand that: I'm just wondering if you can describe what makes a patch in good shape to be sponsored?
[18:28] <imbrandon> nixternal: always :)
[18:29] <ember> persia: the version correct, the diff well formed, the changelog good
[18:30] <ember> if have patches to have it documented if is from upstream or someplace else
[18:30] <ember> if it builds & installs & runs
[18:30] <persia> Anything else?
[18:31] <ember> it quite depends, if it something we want to send it to Debian we should tell
[18:32] <persia> OK.  How about in terms of the specific code changes?
[18:33] <ember> persia: that depends to, if it's something we contributor can maintain
[18:33] <ember> and if its good send it to upstream too.
[18:33] <ember> *s/we/the
[18:34] <ember> but there are some cases we should first try upstream to see if its get accepted
[18:34] <ember> in case of a large code change
[18:34] <persia> OK.  The part I'm not seeing you say is "The patch fixes an issue in a way that is sensible, and doesn't cause a regression in basic testing".
[18:35] <ember> persia: yes that too
[18:35]  * persia is done with questions
[18:35] <dholbach> ok
[18:35] <ember> there are some cases in the Desktop we tend to try it first in upstream then applying the patch on Ubuntu
[18:35] <nixternal> \o/
[18:35] <nixternal> ;p
[18:35] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Pedro Fragoso become a MOTU?
[18:35] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Pedro Fragoso become a MOTU?.
[18:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:36] <nixternal> +1
[18:36] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:36] <dholbach> +1
[18:36] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:36] <geser> +1
[18:36] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[18:36] <soren> +1
[18:36] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[18:36] <persia> +1
[18:36] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[18:36] <dholbach> #endvote
[18:37] <dholbach> [endvote]
[18:37] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[18:37] <nixternal> congrats and welcome ember!!!
[18:37] <imbrandon> gratz ember
[18:37] <dholbach> congratulations ember!
[18:37] <ember> thanks folks!
[18:37]  * soren hugs ember
[18:37]  * ember hugs dholbach!
[18:37]  * nixternal hugs everyone
[18:37]  * ember hugs everyone.
[18:37] <dholbach> who's going to do the honours later on?
[18:37]  * dholbach hugs ember back
[18:37] <nixternal> not me, I can't connect to LP :P
[18:37] <geser> ember: congrats and looks like you survived it in one piece :)
[18:38] <dholbach> ok... let's decide that later on
[18:38] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Elliot Murphy
[18:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Elliot Murphy
[18:38] <persia> The honours are likely going to have to wait until tomorrow, given the traffic in #launchpad.
[18:38] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/UniverseContributorApplication
[18:38] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/UniverseContributorApplication
[18:38] <nixternal> we need to make the membership stuff more stressful, make um sweat a bit, maybe shead a tear? ;p
[18:38] <dholbach> statik: how are you doing?
[18:38] <statik> hello hello
[18:38] <imbrandon> geser: much easier than when i did my initial MOTU infront of sabdfl and the TB :)
[18:38] <nixternal> imbrandon: ditto
[18:39] <statik> dholbach: doing great, relaxing in the sun and wishing launchpad was working better at the moment :)
[18:39] <dholbach> statik: hehe... I guess you're not the only one :)
[18:39] <dholbach> statik: do you have any immediate plans for the karmic release?
[18:40] <statik> dholbach: i sure do. i want to get couchdb updated, and i'm currently working on packaging a bunch of libraries that are needed before I can package windmill, the automated website testing tool
[18:40] <statik> dholbach: also working on ubuntu one, which should be actually available in beta at UDS
[18:41] <dholbach> statik: nice - I'm sure there's going to be a lot of interest :)
[18:42] <statik> dholbach: i also have a special interest in looking after google protocol buffers and general interest in erlang packages
[18:42] <statik> although the only erlang packages i'm currently using are rabbitmq and couchdb, so those are the main erlang related ones i'm watching
[18:43] <dholbach> statik: you've been working a bit on packaging stuff now, what was your Ubuntu development and packaging experience like?
[18:43] <statik> dholbach: it's a bit like programming in a pile of shell scripts and various tools with random incoherent syntax
[18:43] <dholbach> statik: so it was rather unpleasant? :)
[18:44] <statik> dholbach: the people and community are great, but it's a bit of shock to the system compared to programming in python or C
[18:44] <dholbach> ok, I see what you mean now
[18:44] <statik> dholbach: i'm watching vcs-package efforts with great interest
[18:44] <dholbach> geser, soren, persia, nixternal: do you have any questions already?
[18:44] <statik> dholbach: and the bzr branches for packages should help quite a lot
[18:44] <dholbach> statik: yes, I think so too
[18:45] <soren> dholbach: Not really, no.
[18:45] <nixternal> ya, nothing here really
[18:45] <geser> statik: any reason why you have so few sponsored uploads?
[18:46] <persia> statik, For application to the Contributing Developers group, the primary criteria are significant and sustained contributions within the development team.  As you mention in your application, there are only a small number of uploads for which launchpad has given you credit.  Could you talk about some of the other work you've done within the Ubuntu development community that would qualify as significant?
[18:46] <persia> (I'm guessing there are contributions as branches for which someone else had Changed-By or other similar cases)
[18:47] <statik> persia: no, i've got very few uploads so far
[18:47] <statik> persia: i did 3 new python packages last week, those are in revu now
[18:47] <dholbach> nixternal: ^ django-openid-auth - nudge nudge
[18:48] <statik> persia: a main reason of having so few so far is my spending all my time working on unreleased software at canonical
[18:48] <statik> persia: so, i'm doing quite a lot to get more software released by canonical. I also gave a lot of coaching to the guys working on the rabbitmq-server package for jaunty
[18:48] <persia> statik, I can certainly understand that, but I'm not sure it's measurably different from engagement anywhere else.
[18:49] <statik> persia: so, this doesn't change the fact that i have few uploads.
[18:49] <persia> So there isn't a huge set of work you've done that LP just isn't crediting you for?
[18:49] <statik> persia: lets say no
[18:51] <dholbach> geser, persia: do you have any more questions?
[18:51]  * persia is done.
[18:51] <geser> no questions left
[18:51] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Elliot Murphy become Contributing Developer?
[18:51] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Elliot Murphy become Contributing Developer?.
[18:51] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:51] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:53] <nixternal> +1
[18:53] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:54] <dholbach> +0 - I'm sort of undecided, the work I've seen is fantastic and very encouraging, I just feel that you'd benefit from a bit more time in the team
[18:54] <MootBot> Abstention received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:54] <persia> I'm -1 for now.  I think the work to date is great, but would like to see either more work, or more documented involvement with the developer team supporting others.
[18:54] <statik> sure
[18:54] <persia> Err.  Mootbot syntax
[18:54] <dholbach> statik: I hope you're not disappointed or discouraged now
[18:54] <persia> -1
[18:54] <MootBot> -1 received from persia. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[18:54] <soren> +0
[18:55] <MootBot> Abstention received from soren. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[18:55] <geser> -1
[18:55] <MootBot> -1 received from geser. 1 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -1
[18:55] <statik> dholbach: not at all
[18:55] <dholbach> [endvote]
[18:55] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 2 against. 2 abstained. Total: -1
[18:55]  * dholbach hugs statik
[18:55] <persia> nhandler, Great to see you.
[18:55] <statik> thanks everyone :)
[18:55] <dholbach> thanks a bunch for attending and for all the great work you've done!
[18:55] <soren> statik: I'm with persia, I think. I think the work you've done is great, but there's still a bit to be done before I think it qualifies as sustained contribution.
[18:55] <nhandler> persia: I got home early today ;)
[18:55] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Benjamin Drung
[18:55] <persia> statik, I'm certain you're on the right path, and after a bit of work with the folks in #ubuntu-motu learning some of the stuff you say you want to learn, you'll be back and successful.
[18:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Benjamin Drung
[18:56]  * imbrandon needs to head out semi soon
[18:56] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminDrung/UniverseContributorApplication
[18:56] <geser> statik: more sponsored uploads, more feedback (should be easy with more uploads) and you will pass the next time
[18:56] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminDrung/UniverseContributorApplication
[18:56] <dholbach> hey bdrung - how are you doing?
[18:56] <bdrung> dholbach: good
[18:56] <persia> So, imbrandon has to head out soon, and was scheduled for the last meeting.  Would it be possible to switch order?
[18:56] <persia> bdrung, Would that work for you?
[18:57] <bdrung> persia: yes
[18:57] <dholbach> ok
[18:57] <imbrandon> great , thanks bdrung
[18:57] <persia> bdrung, Thanks for your flexibility.
[18:57] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Brandon Holtsclaw
[18:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Brandon Holtsclaw
[18:57] <dholbach> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-April/002087.html
[18:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-April/002087.html
[18:58] <persia> imbrandon, So, you've been away a while: what have you done to catch up on the changes?
[18:58] <nixternal> -400
[18:58] <persia> nixternal, vote early, vote often only works in Chicago.
[18:58] <imbrandon> now i havent updated my wiki since Dapper, but most of you should be familiar with me and i'll be happy to field the q's :)
[18:58] <nixternal> persia: hold on, let me go drudge up some dead people to help vote!
[18:58] <imbrandon> persia: mostly kept up on the mailing list ( u-d-d and u-d-a )
[18:58] <nixternal> imbrandon: who are you? I am unfamiliar with you?
[18:58] <imbrandon> ALOT of reading on new policys / changes
[18:59] <persia> imbrandon, So, what do you think changed the most?
[18:59] <imbrandon> and just general "catching up"
[18:59] <imbrandon> persia: more fomality
[18:59] <imbrandon> ( not a bad thing )
[18:59] <imbrandon> but alot more struct than what i was accustomed to but not against :)
[19:00] <dholbach> imbrandon: when, roughly, was the time you got too busy with other stuff?
[19:00] <imbrandon> basicly alot of the best practices got codified
[19:00] <imbrandon> dholbach: about the begning og gutsy
[19:00] <imbrandon> of*
[19:00] <dholbach> imbrandon: do you have any plans for your MOTU membership already?
[19:01] <imbrandon> i'm esp intrested in the mono(apache and cli) packages ( some in main , but thats later )
[19:01] <soren> Sorry guys, I have to run :/
[19:01] <imbrandon> and naturally universe SRU and SWAT stuff
[19:01] <nhandler> imbrandon: What have you been doing to try and catch up on what you have missed?
[19:01] <dholbach> soren: we have nhandler for you now, so we should be all set - take care!
[19:01] <imbrandon> ( i loved doing those updates )
[19:02] <dholbach> nixternal, geser, nhandler: any questions from you?
[19:03] <nhandler> dholbach: ^^^
[19:03] <nhandler> I am curious as to what imbrandon found most useful in catching up on everything he missed
[19:03] <imbrandon> ahh missed your nhandler, umm its kinda what dholbach asked, mostly catching up the last month or so on the mailing lists and looking over the policy changes
[19:03] <nhandler> i.e. wiki pages, old mailing lists messages, talking with other developers on IRC, etc
[19:03] <geser> imbrandon: so you're trying to become MOTU again for now or do you have plans to become core-dev again too?
[19:04] <nhandler> Ok, I missed the mailing list part imbrandon
[19:04] <imbrandon> yes, i've kept my sub to all mailing lists and tried to stay acive on them
[19:04] <imbrandon> atleaste reading wise
[19:04] <nhandler> :)
[19:04] <nixternal> imbrandon: planning on working on Kubuntu stuff again, or have you gone over to the dark side?
[19:05] <imbrandon> hahahaha well i've been on the darkside since KDE 3.5 was expunged, but i still have it on my spare laptop and plan on working on it ( notifications and such to unify gnome/kde ) but actual use i'll likely stick with gnome for atleaste this cycle
[19:05] <nixternal> ScottK: ^^ enemy!
[19:05] <imbrandon> :)
[19:06]  * dholbach has no more questions. :-)
[19:06] <ScottK> nixternal: Nope.  He lives in KC, so not my enemy.
[19:06] <nixternal> hrmm
[19:06] <imbrandon> ScottK: good bbq :)
[19:06] <nixternal> no more q's from me
[19:06] <nhandler> I'm good
[19:06] <nixternal> KC != good bbq
[19:07] <nixternal> ;p
[19:07] <ScottK> nixternal: That's one theory.
[19:07] <dholbach> persia, geser: anything more from you?
[19:07] <geser> no
[19:07] <ScottK> It's too cold in Chicago for that to be a good place to form an opinion.
[19:07] <persia> imbrandon, When you left, it was somewhat precipitously, and there were some concerns that some of the stuff you had been doing was dropped without appropriate cover.  Do you feel this was incorrect, or if you feel it was correct, do you have plans to ensure it is not repeated?
[19:07] <nhandler> ScottK: We are getting 80 degree temperatures tomorrow
[19:07]  * nixternal is going bike riding in it too
[19:08] <imbrandon> persia: definaly incorrect, and since i've learned to live by the "bus rule" ( more to come .... )
[19:08] <imbrandon> the "bus rule" is make sure you are not the only one that knows some bit of info or has access, so if you are hit by a bus ( or in my case a divorce ) its not "as bad"
[19:09] <dholbach> haha... I didn't know it as the "bus rule"
[19:09] <nixternal> either did I
[19:09] <imbrandon> :P
[19:09]  * nixternal has to remember that
[19:09] <persia> Well, that's excellent news on two counts (incorrect, and "bus rule"), and unfortunate on the third: I hope all is well for you now.
[19:09] <dholbach> persia: everything from you?
[19:09] <persia> Yes.
[19:09] <imbrandon> persia: thanks :)
[19:10] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Brandon Holtsclaw re-join the MOTU team?
[19:10] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Brandon Holtsclaw re-join the MOTU team?.
[19:10] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:10] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:10] <persia> +1
[19:10] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:10] <nixternal> +1
[19:10] <dholbach> +1
[19:10] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:10] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:10] <geser> +1
[19:10] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[19:10] <nhandler> +1
[19:10] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[19:10] <dholbach> [endvote]
[19:10] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[19:10] <nixternal> -1
[19:10] <nixternal> ;p
[19:10] <dholbach> welcome back imbrandon!
[19:10] <dholbach> nixternal: that was to be expected :)
[19:10] <nixternal> bah, I guess welcome back
[19:10]  * dholbach hugs imbrandon
[19:10]  * nixternal hugs everyone
[19:10] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Benjamin Drung
[19:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Benjamin Drung
[19:10] <imbrandon> great , thanks fella's ( and ladies if any are looking )
[19:10] <dholbach> bdrung: still awake? :)
[19:10] <imbrandon> ok must run, seee everyone soon
[19:11] <persia> Have a good day imbrandon
[19:11] <nixternal> if they are looking, it isn't at you, now movealong, nothing more to see ;p
[19:11] <bdrung> dholbach: as you can see
[19:11] <dholbach> :-)
[19:11] <dholbach> bdrung: what kind of packages do you like looking after? do you have any concrete plans for karmic already?
[19:12] <bdrung> dholbach: xmms2 and it clients (today was version 0.6 released)
[19:12] <bdrung> dholbach: getting gnome-colors and shiki-colors into karmic
[19:12] <nhandler> bdrung: Any plans on joining the mozilla team?
[19:13] <dholbach> bdrung: your wiki page says something about eclipse... there's little you're afraid of, right? :)
[19:13] <dholbach> bdrung: more seriously, do you have some experience with java and java packages already?
[19:13]  * nixternal found someone who has already pacakged eclipse 3.4.2 for Debian btw
[19:13] <bdrung> dholbach: i have experience with java programming, but not with ant.
[19:13] <nixternal> Ant FTW!
[19:13] <nixternal> bdrung: Ant is so easy and fun
[19:14]  * nixternal closes his mouth before he in the world of Java hell
[19:14] <ScottK> nixternal: Please sponsor it when Karmic opens.
[19:14] <bdrung> dholbach: eclipse is very big and ugly and i need more time to dive into ant and the package.
[19:14] <nixternal> ScottK: ant?
[19:15] <dholbach> bdrung: yeah, I can imagine
[19:15] <ScottK> Eclipse
[19:15] <nixternal> ahh, I will help sponsor sure
[19:15] <nhandler> bdrung: Care to answer my qeustion about the mozilla team? I saw in your wiki that you had worked on a few extensions with asac
[19:15] <bdrung> nhandler: i have no plans th join mozilla team. i care for pwdhash and currently i touched adblock-plus.
[19:15] <nixternal> I think for Ant, I have the last upload as well as the upstream patch to fix Ant...my first contrib to the Apache product, which for some reason I am extremely proud of
[19:15] <nhandler> bdrung: So the extensions were more of a one time thing?
[19:15] <bdrung> nhandler: i also want to package htmlvalidator.
[19:16] <bdrung> nhandler: yes, it think so. but if i have time to i might touch more firefox extensions
[19:16] <nhandler> bdrung: What route are you going to go to get htmlvalidator into the Ubuntu repositories?
[19:17] <nixternal> firefox extensions? as in firefox addons?
[19:17] <nhandler> Are you going to go through REVU? Or are you going to go through Debian and request a sync?
[19:17] <bdrung> nhandler: through debian.
[19:17] <nhandler> Yes nixternal
[19:18] <nixternal> i never understood the reasoning to packaging addons when they are so easy to obtain already
[19:18] <nhandler> bdrung: Very nice. Any reason that you did not get pwdhash uploaded in Debian?
[19:18] <persia> nixternal, trust.
[19:19] <persia> (as in I trust the ubuntu-mozillateam to audit plugins for safety during packaging, but don't necessarily trust some random site online)
[19:19] <nhandler> nixternal: It also makes it easy to create meta packages that install many addons
[19:19] <bdrung> nhandler: yes: mozilla-devscripts is not available in debian.
[19:19] <nixternal> ya, I am still not sold, but that isn't up to me :)
[19:19] <nhandler> bdrung: Very good reason ;)
[19:19] <nixternal> anywho, bdrung nice sustained package contribs there
[19:19]  * dholbach is all set with questions.
[19:19] <dholbach> oh no... I have one more question
[19:20] <persia> bdrung, You cite as the major thing you don't like in Ubuntu: "there are too many bugs".  How do you think this should be addressed?
[19:20] <dholbach> bdrung: will we see a origami video of you on youtube? :-)
[19:20] <nixternal> closing them all and telling everyone to start over! :p
[19:20] <persia> Oh, and you can determine who sponsored something by checking the GPG key on the -changes list (or it should be listed with the new -changes message format)
[19:20] <nixternal> dholbach: we better see that video now that you brought it up
[19:20] <bdrung> persia: by helping fixing the bugs. :)
[19:21] <persia> bdrung, So you feel that the reason for the bugs is more about lack of hands than about how the bugs are managed?
[19:22] <bdrung> persia: partly.
[19:22] <persia> bdrung, And partly?
[19:22] <bdrung> persia: but i have no idea how to better manage the bug handling.
[19:23] <dholbach> I guess he meant "partly the one and partly the other" :-)
[19:23] <persia> heh.  That's a fair answer :)
[19:23] <nhandler> bdrung: Did you have any problems or difficulties while learning the patching/packaging basics or while interacting with the team?
[19:24] <bdrung> nhandler: nothing i can imagine of. at the beginning there were much to learn.
[19:25] <dholbach> geser, nixternal, nhandler, persia: any more questions?
[19:25] <bdrung> nhandler: but i could ask dholbach in real life.
[19:25] <geser> no
[19:25] <nixternal> I am good
[19:26] <persia> I'm done
[19:26] <nhandler> bdrung: So you have been active in the berlin loco?
[19:26] <dholbach> bdrung: advantage of packaging/bug jams! :)
[19:26] <bdrung> nhandler: yes.
[19:26] <dholbach> nhandler: YES :)
[19:26] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Benjamin Drung become Contributing Developer?
[19:26] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Benjamin Drung become Contributing Developer?.
[19:26] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:26] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:26] <geser> +1
[19:26] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:26] <nhandler> +1
[19:26] <nixternal> +1
[19:26] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:27] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:27] <dholbach> +1
[19:27] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[19:27] <persia> +1
[19:27] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[19:27] <dholbach> [endvote]
[19:27] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[19:27] <dholbach> CONGRATULATIONS!
[19:27]  * dholbach hugs bdrung
[19:27] <dholbach> :-)
[19:27] <nixternal> congrats and welcome!
[19:27] <bdrung> thanks.
[19:27]  * nixternal hugs everyone
[19:27] <dholbach> ok... so who takes care of doing the honours? I have to dash for dinner now
[19:27] <nhandler> I will dholbach
[19:27] <dholbach> but don't mind doing it when I get up ... in 11h or something, maybe LP works then :)
[19:28] <dholbach> nhandler: ok... if you didn't get around to it, I'll do it :)
[19:28] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business.
[19:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business.
[19:28] <persia> nhandler, Good luck getting LP to do the right thing (but at least the "is to become a foo" emails can go)
[19:28] <dholbach> thanks nhandler
[19:28] <persia> I'm amused at using MootBot voting.  We seem to either be unanimous, or decide against.
[19:28] <dholbach> Going once.
[19:29] <nixternal> going twice
[19:29] <dholbach> ... twice ...
[19:29] <nixternal> sold to the monkey named dholbach!
[19:29] <dholbach> Ok... adjourned!
[19:29] <dholbach> hahaha
[19:29] <nixternal> oops
[19:29] <dholbach> thanks everybody!
[19:29] <nixternal> no, thank you!
[19:29] <dholbach> take care my friends - and see you tomorrow again, enjoy the celebrations!
[19:29] <persia> nixternal, Didn't you read the email: "monkey" is considered a pejorative term.
[19:29] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[19:29] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:29.
[19:30] <nixternal> hrmm, so I should be more PC, is that what you are saying?
[19:30] <dholbach> take care guys
[19:30] <dholbach> DINNER!
[19:30] <nixternal> mmm food
[19:31] <persia> nixternal, Well, after the fuss over trying to call everyone "Ubuntu Code Monkeys", I thought you'd use other words.
[19:33] <nixternal> hahahahaha, I liked that term though
[19:34] <ScottK> IIRC the primary objection to UCM was it was considered unprofessional, not the it was pejorative.
[19:37] <persia> Oh.  I thought it was both.
[19:38] <ScottK> Could be.
[19:41] <nixternal> and Masters Of The Universe is professional? :p
[19:42] <ScottK> Picked before my time.
[19:42] <cody-somerville> MOTU is going away anyhow, isn't it?
[19:42] <nixternal> don't know yet...we were told no at UDS, that there would still be MOTU, but it would just be it a bit differently
[19:42] <ScottK> There are some TBDs in the archive reorg spec that leave me uncertain on this.
[19:45] <persia> I was fairly sure that the term "MOTU" was going to be left around for historical purposes only.
[19:46] <persia> I could be mistaken, but I don't expect it to retain value to join in the future, nor do I expect it to be used to describe any sets of developers.
[19:46] <nixternal> right, everyone was just going to be "Ubuntu Developer"
[19:47] <persia> Well, I expect there to be other subgroups within that that have different rights, but yes.
[19:47] <nixternal> the fact that people took the term "Code Monkey" and made it derogatory is a bit upsetting...I remember when it was a fun term that everyone used...then again, I might be showing my age ;p
[19:48] <persia> The important thing is that nobody will be defined in a negative fashion, as MOTU is currently defined as "those developers that have permission to upload anything not part of the 'main' or 'restricted' components".
[22:01] <StevenK> Puff, puff, I am late?
[22:01]  * ogra moos
[22:01] <GrueMaster> Yea, you missed it.
[22:01] <lool> NCommander: ping
[22:01] <lool> NCommander: ping
[22:01] <lool> NCommander: ping
[22:01] <lool> NCommander: ping
[22:02] <lool> :-P
[22:02] <ogra> heh
[22:02] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[22:02]  * ogra spilled wine over his kbd now
[22:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:02. The chair is NCommander.
[22:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:02]  * NCommander coughs
[22:03] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[22:03] <StevenK> ogra: Haha
[22:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[22:03] <NCommander> ogra, you shouldn't install Windows programs around your kids
[22:03] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate 338148
[22:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate 338148
[22:03] <NCommander> no progress, c/o
[22:03] <ogra> kids ? you mean cats ... no kids here
[22:04] <persia> NCommander, No worries: it's a valid SRU target.
[22:04] <NCommander> oh, I misread kbd for kids
[22:04] <NCommander> ... and I pulled up the wrong meetings action items
[22:04] <StevenK> Hah
[22:04] <NCommander> oops
[22:04] <NCommander> [topic] lool to chase VFP for cairo
[22:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool to chase VFP for cairo
[22:04] <lool> Wasn't this handled last week?
[22:05] <lool> anyway, I sent my repo to Debian; need to actually upload it
[22:05] <lool> it was too late for jaunty especially that intrusive
[22:05] <lool> and the gtk+2.0 breakage was good reason not to upload cairo too
[22:05] <NCommander> lool, last week you said you were going to try and get it in, hence why I left it there.
[22:05] <lool> Ok
[22:05] <lool> Well I mildly tried
[22:05]  * NCommander strikes it
[22:06] <NCommander> [topic]  lool to spec ec2-package-builder for jaunty+1 (co)
[22:06] <MootBot> New Topic:   lool to spec ec2-package-builder for jaunty+1 (co)
[22:06]  * ogra joins lool in tiredness
[22:06] <lool> Good progress on this
[22:06] <lool> I installed eucalyptus and sub-ed to amazon services; that made me understand a bunch of things
[22:06]  * NCommander is extremely dead
[22:07] <lool> I also compiled implementations ideas and researched various info such as which arch to use in the vms
[22:07]  * NCommander would love to help work on this ...
[22:07] <lool> Talked with server team folks as well; altogether good progress
[22:07] <persia> You really ought add the spec to the KarmicSpecifications page :)
[22:07] <lool> Now need to write a high level spec and I think it will be come an UDS spec
[22:07] <lool> persia: Definitely
[22:07] <lool> Actually I didn't take the time before the meeting, but I'd like to post my draft specs ideas for anybody to grab
[22:08] <NCommander> lool, we're going to have a Draft Specification talk at the end
[22:08] <NCommander> after the roadmap review
[22:08] <lool> NCommander: perfect, thanks
[22:08] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to coordinate with lool and re-purpose hardening-wrapper to pass -Os on lpia builds (co)
[22:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to coordinate with lool and re-purpose hardening-wrapper to pass -Os on lpia builds (co)
[22:08] <NCommander> Implemented. Its in the karmic chroots.
[22:08] <lool> BTW [link]uBTW
[22:08] <lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090423
[22:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090423
[22:08] <lool> NCommander: Well done
[22:08] <NCommander> If anyone sees any funny breakage, point me at it
[22:08]  * ogra feels skipped but doesnt really mind :P
[22:09] <NCommander> I know a few packages are going to explode into little bitty bomb pieces
[22:09] <NCommander> ogra, your at the end :-P (I haven't saved the page with the corrected action items)
[22:09] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to test newer version of Hildon Desktop to see if it resolves cat kills MID bug (co)
[22:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to test newer version of Hildon Desktop to see if it resolves cat kills MID bug (co)
[22:09] <ogra> save it !
[22:09] <GrueMaster> Now that release has happened, I can refocus on this.
[22:10] <persia> Um, we ought chase RC bugs pre-release :)
[22:10] <ogra> thanks :)
[22:10] <NCommander> persia, that requires time :-/
[22:10] <StevenK> post ?
[22:10] <NCommander> GrueMaster, if you find a fix, we can probably SRU it if it isn't too bad.
[22:10] <GrueMaster> That was my thinking.
[22:10] <NCommander> or at the very least shove it in jaunty-backports
[22:10] <NCommander> If its absolute crack.
[22:11] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to test usplash at 800x600
[22:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to test usplash at 800x600
[22:11] <ogra> doesnt wokr
[22:11] <GrueMaster> btw:  Thought I'd mention that maemo is poritng to QT backend.
[22:11] <ogra> *work
[22:11] <NCommander> ew :-/
[22:11] <ogra> i registered https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/splashes-on-armel to chase that properly in karmic
[22:11] <NCommander> ogra, additional bulletpoint
[22:11] <NCommander> usplash karmic DOES work on powerpc
[22:11] <NCommander> Which means it works with framebuffers
[22:11] <ogra> sure jaunty surely also works on ppc
[22:12] <NCommander> ogra, it works great :-)
[22:12] <NCommander> er
[22:12] <NCommander> usplash jaunty
[22:12] <ogra> yes, with comon graphics HW
[22:12] <lool> We need to find out why it's borken on babbage then
[22:12] <NCommander> man, my brain has gone to mush
[22:12] <lool> or move to plymouth
[22:12] <lool> but > UDS
[22:12] <ogra> lool, we will, its a karic spec now :)
[22:12] <NCommander> lool, do we have a /dev/fb0 device in the initramfs?
[22:12] <NCommander> That could be the problem.
[22:12] <lool> NCommander: Could be
[22:12] <NCommander> anyway
[22:12]  * ogra wants his m back *whine*
[22:12] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope (co)
[22:12] <lool> CONFIG_FB=y
[22:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to trim selection-of-arm-images to a smaller scope (co)
[22:13] <lool> CONFIG_FB_MXC=y
[22:13] <NCommander> lool, you usually need a driver to go with it
[22:13] <ogra> i'm not sure that makes sense now that we build on cdimage
[22:13] <NCommander> lool, hrm ... *shrug*
[22:13] <ogra> nor the next topic
[22:13] <NCommander> We have a lot of iMX51 images
[22:13] <NCommander> Anyone want one for Xubuntu and Kubuntu (both work amazingly)
[22:13] <ogra> right, all built on cdoimage
[22:13] <NCommander> so also scratch the kernel one?
[22:13] <ogra> the spec was about merging kernels manually with images
[22:14] <lool> I'm not too happy that all armel images are imx51 images ATM; I would love some common image format and some "start installer" images
[22:14] <lool> But that's also > UDS now
[22:14] <ogra> and i dont think we'll need it anymore in karmic
[22:14] <NCommander> lool, maybe draft a spec
[22:14] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot 328167
[22:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to rebuild gnome-keyring-daemon to troubleshoot 328167
[22:14] <ogra> we can build images for all supported SoCs on cdimage
[22:14] <persia> Yes.  Draft a spec :)
[22:15] <ogra> no progress here ... was to busy with image testing and spec writing
[22:15] <ogra> and i dont think it needs to be tracked on the meeting page anymore
[22:15] <NCommander> ok
[22:15] <ogra> i'll do that at some point as debugging task with upstream
[22:15] <NCommander> [topic] Roadmap Review
[22:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Roadmap Review
[22:16] <NCommander> [topic] offline-installer (ogra)
[22:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer (ogra)
[22:16] <ogra> isnt that obsolete ?
[22:16] <NCommander> ogasawara, the roadmap review?
[22:16] <ogra> (roadmap review)
[22:16] <persia> The entire roadmap is currently obsolete.
[22:16] <ogra> yes
[22:16] <persia> We just released.
[22:16] <NCommander> ...
[22:16] <NCommander> Uh ... ok
[22:16] <ogra> lets move on to new specs
[22:16] <NCommander> Works for me
[22:16] <persia> We need to build a new roadmap.
[22:16] <NCommander> FOr specs, I'm going to go around one by one to keep some sanity
[22:16] <NCommander> any objections?
[22:16] <persia> (that's where specs come in: please submit more)
[22:16] <persia> Yes.
[22:16] <NCommander> [topic] New Specification Discussion
[22:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  New Specification Discussion
[22:17] <NCommander> actually
[22:17] <lool> bug #358762 was resolved
[22:17] <persia> Let's just go through the list on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/KarmicSpecifications
[22:17] <ogra> was it on the roadmap ?
[22:17] <lool> Yes
[22:17] <ogra> we should probably still gop through the bugs
[22:17] <NCommander> [topic] Information Specifications
[22:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Information Specifications
[22:17] <NCommander> ogra, I'll swing back around
[22:17] <persia> If anyone hasn't put something there yet, they're late (well, excepting the extension I just sent, but they didn't know that at tha start of the meeting)
[22:17] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-qa-arm
[22:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-qa-arm
[22:17] <StevenK> Information*al*
[22:18] <ogra> who is Al ?
[22:18]  * NCommander sighs
[22:18] <plars> I put in three informational ones for testplan/testcase development per a conversation with davidm
[22:18] <NCommander> Ok, so we want those
[22:18] <NCommander> [topic] Feature Specifications
[22:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Feature Specifications
[22:19] <NCommander> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
[22:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
[22:19] <NCommander> We wanted it for jaunty, didn't get implemented. Probably something we still want for karmic
[22:19] <NCommander> Any objections?
[22:19] <ogra> needs a lot more research prior UDS this time
[22:19] <NCommander> ogra, indeed
[22:20] <ogra> there are tons of impleentations out there that havent been taken into account ...
[22:20] <ogra> +m
[22:20] <lool> Do we really want to go over each candidate spec now?  we're going to add sessions and review the full list before UDS anyway
[22:20] <NCommander> ogra, well debian-arm guys are rolling their own
[22:20] <ogra> right, and they need approval
[22:20] <NCommander> lool, I'm open to suggestions on how to do this.
[22:20] <ogra> currently they are just suggestiuons
[22:20] <persia> I don't think we have to go over them all.
[22:21] <persia> Anyway, we're about 40 specs short.
[22:21] <NCommander> Indeed :-/
[22:21] <lool> NCommander: I think we can bring up concerns we have here if anybody has any, but we don't need to go through all of them all together
[22:21] <persia> So, instead of going over them, we should all go write some more specs.
[22:21] <GrueMaster> We have a quota?
[22:21]  * ogra added 7
[22:21] <plars> do we have a list of specs we know about, that just need to be written in case others might be able to help?
[22:21]  * NCommander has a few, but only one is even Mobile related
[22:21] <NCommander> :-/
[22:21] <lool> GrueMaster: Oh you weren't told about the quota
[22:21] <StevenK> I'm at 5 or so
[22:21] <persia> GrueMaster, We have 50-60 time/room slots at UDS.  We may not fill them all, but if we can fill them, we can use them.  Otherwise, someone else gets the slots.
[22:22] <GrueMaster> ok
[22:22] <lool> plars: We have some topics which we know need to be covered
[22:22] <persia> plars, It's the "Ideas" section on the KarmicSpecifications page.
[22:22] <ogra> we have one new person starting onday in the tea btw
[22:22] <ogra> +mm
[22:22] <lool> Yup
[22:22]  * NCommander just got a specification idea
[22:22] <plars> persia: you mean the topics for discussion? I don't have an ideas section there
[22:23] <NCommander> I think we need a mobile-community-involvement to try and generate ideas of a better way of getting the community involved.
[22:23] <lool> plars: I have a bunch of specs ideas
[22:23] <persia> plars, Right.  Sorry.  I'm not in an ideal timezone for this meeting time.
[22:23] <lool> http://paste.ubuntu.com/156765/
[22:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/156765/
[22:23] <lool> there's some crach too
[22:23] <persia> who volunteers to copy lool's crack into the wiki page?
[22:24] <StevenK> OH! Translations!
[22:24]  * NCommander loves Loic's ideas
[22:24] <NCommander> Oh darn
[22:24] <lool> StevenK: the UNR folks mentionned they want a session on it
[22:24] <NCommander> I just realized something we haven't done yet
[22:24] <StevenK> lool: *I* want a session on it
[22:24] <StevenK> lool: "fitting UNR apps in 600 and 480 screens
[22:24] <StevenK> lool: that already exists
[22:25] <plars> uh
[22:25] <plars> 480 or 576?
[22:25] <NCommander> Neither GrueMaster or plars are members of ubuntu-mobile; I think we should vote to add them.
[22:25] <StevenK> I don't mention size in the spec
[22:25] <plars> I thought I got added a while back actually
[22:25] <ogra> StevenK, add a11y to that too :)
[22:25] <ogra> StevenK, i know TheMuso is intrested in it on UNR
[22:25]  * GrueMaster feels left out
[22:26] <StevenK> ogra: Good point
[22:26] <persia> NCommander, Needs application and agenda item.  Maybe next week.
[22:26]  * NCommander adds it to action items
[22:26] <persia> Not action items.  Agenda items.
[22:26] <NCommander> Oh
[22:26] <NCommander> persia, do we have a formal process for membership?
[22:26] <persia> Yes.
[22:26] <ogra> yes
[22:27] <lool> StevenK: 576 is actually the screen size of the dell mini9
[22:27] <plars> lool: mini 10
[22:27] <NCommander> link?
[22:27] <plars> mini 9 is 600
[22:27] <lool> I always thought people were saying 576 because they were taking 600 minus panel size
[22:27]  * NCommander is not finding it on google
[22:27] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam
[22:27] <ogra> lool, me too, until i learned its actually the glass size
[22:28] <lool> plars: ah right sorry
[22:28] <lool> ogra: yeah
[22:28] <ogra> edavid convinced me in berlin :)
[22:28] <lool> StevenK: might make sense to target 576 and perhaps 480
[22:28] <ogra> *david
[22:28] <lool> there's a project in GNOME to support netbook perhaps down to 480 currently
[22:28] <lool> It will likely start with an usability study
[22:28] <ogra> oh really ?
[22:28] <persia> I think 480 is a good target.  I have 2 laptops that are 480 vertical.
[22:29] <lool> ogra: Yeah, on mobile-devel-list
[22:29] <ogra> i'm on that or arent i ?
[22:29] <lool> http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/UsabilityTests/Netbooks
[22:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/UsabilityTests/Netbooks
[22:29]  * ogra checks
[22:29] <lool> (I proposed the first 4/5 bullet points   :-P)
[22:29] <ogra> oh, not -devel ... just -obile
[22:30] <ogra> hmm, no, actually devel
[22:30]  * ogra sees lool's posts 
[22:30] <lool> Ok anything else WRT specs?
[22:31] <lool> apart of we really need to complete their filing
[22:31] <lool> NCommander: moving on to induction votes?
[22:31] <ogra> well
[22:31] <NCommander> I thought we had to do it next meeting
[22:31]  * NCommander is all for doing it this meeting htough
[22:31] <persia> We do.
[22:31] <lool> Ok I'm fine with that
[22:31] <lool> I'm not around next meeting :)
[22:31] <ogra> i wonder why we started to only have one sigle session on each spec with last UDS
[22:32] <NCommander> persia, why do we have to wait until next meeting? (stupid question ...)
[22:32] <persia> It's too early for me to remember clearly.
[22:32] <lool> NCommander: the first rule in ubuntu mobile club...
[22:32] <ogra> we used to have at least the possibility to have more than one slot
[22:32] <persia> Something about preparing things.
[22:32] <persia> ogra, We still have the possibility of more than one slot.
[22:32] <StevenK> We still do, it just isn't by default
[22:32] <ogra> with the last UDS that turnbed impossible because we had one spec for each booked slot
[22:32] <persia> It's just that most specs don't need it, so one has to ask special.
[22:33] <GrueMaster> Aren't I already a member?  I've been working with ubuntu-mobile since 2007.
[22:33] <ogra> persia, not if we file the other 40 specs you request
[22:33] <ogra> since we'll fill all our slots
[22:33] <ogra> i'd really like to propose to keep at least 10 spare slots
[22:33] <lool> GrueMaster: You're not apparently
[22:33] <ogra> so we can have two or more sessions for specs that need it
[22:33] <lool> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+members
[22:33] <persia> ogra, If we get 60 proposals, it's likely that some won't get accepted.
[22:33] <NCommander> GrueMaster, membership means your in ~ubuntu-mobile, so you get write access to our Bazaar branches and so on.
[22:33] <lool> [link] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+members
[22:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+members
[22:34] <NCommander> Its why I realized we need to get your membership processed.
[22:34] <ogra> persia, its still a sacrily huge amount
[22:34] <persia> ogra, Don't worry about it.  Let the ideas flow.  We can trim as needed.
[22:34] <ogra> persia, i dont expect the team to be able to finish 40 specs
[22:35] <ogra> (if we drop 30 of 70 or so)
[22:35] <persia> I don't want to not document a good idea just because you don't think someone can finish it.
[22:35] <ogra> no, thats fine
[22:35] <persia> At UDS we can determine what can get done, and what can't.
[22:35] <persia> Post UDS, we can trim the roadmap to what we can do in Karmic, and what needs to be deferred.
[22:35] <ogra> but i'd like us to be more careful with the selection and the amount of slots this time
[22:35] <persia> Pre-UDS we should merge everything, and do research.
[22:35] <ogra> if a topic is worth three sessions, we should have them
[22:36] <lool> Agreed
[22:36] <ogra> we restricted us to one per spec last UDS
[22:36] <persia> That's fine.  That's why I want the specs *now*, so there's time to review them.
[22:36] <ogra> and that was stressfull
[22:36] <lool> The previous UDS was filled with sessions, but in the end we didn't implement that many specs
[22:36] <ogra> and didnt really result in good ones
[22:36] <ogra> right
[22:36] <ogra> cut down quantity for quality
[22:37] <persia> Well part of that was because most of the specs were not even properly started when we got to UDS.
[22:37] <persia> This way we have a month to do the research, and can have more productive sessions.
[22:37] <ogra> i worked my ass off in advance for the touchscreen spec ...
[22:37] <ogra> its not true that such specs werent prepared well
[22:37] <ogra> its just a matter of time constraint
[22:37] <persia> ogra, Some of them.  Not that one.
[22:38] <ogra> we did have to do a lot of unspecced work sadly
[22:38] <ogra> but we should try to make our planning take such stuff into account for next round
[22:38] <persia> RIght, which is why I want *all* the specs now.
[22:38] <persia> Then we can pick and choose.
[22:39] <ogra> right, but if we have a similar workload next release we should limit to max two specs per person
[22:39] <ogra> and pick the right ones
[22:39] <ogra> and work them out very deeply
[22:39] <persia> Sure.  No issues.
[22:39] <persia> Let's trim, but let's get the list together first.
[22:39] <ogra> sure
[22:40] <persia> Stick in anything you think would be good.  We get as many specs as possible from as many people as possible, and following a guideline like 2 per person means we can get lots more done.
[22:41] <lool> Any other topic for today?
[22:41] <ogra> doesnt look like
[22:41] <lool> Ok; let's idle here for some 20 minutes
[22:41] <ogra> for doing what ?
[22:41] <lool> Idling
[22:41] <NCommander> [topic] Open Discussion
[22:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[22:41] <ogra> hooray ...
[22:43] <NCommander> Should we just do membership now? Or should I #endmeeting
[22:44] <NCommander> ...
[22:44] <NCommander> ah, well
[22:44] <NCommander> meeting going once
[22:44] <NCommander> meeting going twice
[22:44] <NCommander> meeting going three times
[22:45] <NCommander> Thank you all for attending, and thank you all for your hard work in jaunty
[22:45] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[22:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:45.
[22:45] <ogra> how far do you count ?
[22:45] <lool>  _,  _   _   _|           o  _, |)  _|_
[22:45] <ogra> ah
[22:45] <lool> | / \_/ \_/ |     /|/|  | / | |/\  |
[22:45] <lool> Argh ruined
[22:45] <NCommander> lool, O_o;
[22:45] <lool> it's ruined
[22:45] <ogra> sorry
[22:45] <lool>  _,  _   _   _|           o  _, |)  _|_
[22:45] <lool> | / \_/ \_/ |     /|/|  | / | |/\  |
[22:45] <lool> \/|/\_/ \_/ \/|_/    | |_/|/\/|/|  |/|_/
[22:45] <lool>  (|                          (|
[22:45] <ogra> hm
[22:45] <plars> fail
[22:45] <ogra> didnt work anyway
[22:45] <NCommander> Interesting abstract art
[22:45] <lool>                                         
[22:45] <lool>  _,  _   _   _|           o  _, |)  _|_
[22:45] <lool> / | / \_/ \_/ |     /|/|  | / | |/\  |
[22:45] <lool> \/|/\_/ \_/ \/|_/    | |_/|/\/|/|  |/|_/
[22:45] <lool>  (|                          (|
[22:45] <lool> ah
[22:45] <lool> there it goes, stupid /
[22:46] <NCommander> I still have no idea what "it"'s supposed to be
[22:46] <ogra> night lool
[22:46] <StevenK> NCommander: "good night" in ASCII cursive art
[22:46] <NCommander> Oh, its a bed!
[22:46] <ogra> NCommander, steop away from your monitor
[22:46] <NCommander> Oh
[22:47] <ogra> a meter at least
[22:47]  * NCommander doesn't have a meter behind him
[22:47] <NCommander> !
[22:47] <StevenK> Punch through the wall?
[22:47] <NCommander> wow
[22:47] <NCommander> Thats cool
[22:48] <lool> NCommander: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/n.png
[22:48]  * ogra says that too ... and goes afk