LaserJockand there are a lot of discussions, I usually find it very hard to pick which ones to go to as there are many at the same time00:00
LordMetroidI've never been to a summit before, I really need to get out and meet people more.00:01
LordMetroidAnd I would be going through Denmark, Germany, France having fun and sampling the culture and cuisine once again00:02
LaserJockyeah, if you can afford to go it's a great experience00:02
mdkecan we upload to karmic?00:31
LaserJockmdke: I don't think so yet00:32
mdkewill things be held in a queue or just rejected?00:32
mdke(I see a few things on karmic-changes but maybe those are exceptional00:32
keesmdke: the toolchain is still being finalized00:34
LaserJockmdke: I suppose you could give it a shot, but generally we do wait until the toolchain is up and working00:34
mdkeok, fair enough00:36
mdkeI'll keep my releases in bzr only for a bit :)00:36
cjwatsonmdke: feel free to upload; they'll be held in a queue01:53
cjwatsoninfinity: debootstrap 1.0.13 is on its way in now, with karmic support02:14
LordMetroidkarmic support?02:19
LordMetroidWhat does that mean...02:20
cjwatsonthe next Ubuntu release will be called "Karmic Koala"02:20
cjwatsonits codename, that is02:20
LordMetroidI know, but for debootstrap to support karmic, what does that mean.02:21
LordMetroidI don't find anything through google about that...02:21
cjwatsondebootstrap needs to have explicit support for each release it might be asked to install02:21
cjwatsonin this case, it's pretty trivial, just a symlink02:22
LordMetroidohh, nice02:22
cjwatsonI'm not sure why google would be helpful here02:22
cjwatsonwe have to do a bunch of stuff like this when opening each new release; it's pretty routine02:23
LordMetroidI've never been all that involved in the development of a release02:23
LordMetroidI managed to scratch the surface but I have no idea where to go to get really involved02:23
LordMetroidSee what is happening and all02:23
cjwatsonhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess is what we have to do to get each new release ready for developers to contribute02:24
LordMetroidI subscribe to the announcements mailing-list(though an announcement is only made every month or so unless they want to say, please do 5 a day)02:24
cjwatsonLordMetroid: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25947235/debootstrap_1.0.12_1.0.13.diff.gz has some other changes as well, but the relevant change for this is right at the bottom02:28
* cjwatson -> bed02:28
LordMetroidnigh cjwatson02:29
jdongtjaalton: are you familiar enough with the vmmouse driver to play "crack or not crack" with me? :)04:19
jdongso the problem is, it seems like modern vmware+vmmouse, when you click down the mouse it sends ButtonDown, MotionEvent(0px or 1px), ButtonUp04:19
jdongthis combination of events causes a drag to be interpreted.04:20
jdongoften times this means right-clicking for a context menu automatically selects the first thing04:20
jdong(it interprets it as you right-clicked, dragged to the first item, then let go)04:21
jdongnow... how to correctly work around this?04:21
jdongI tried a simple one-liner that disallows posting both a move and a button change event at the same time, and it's pretty effective but not perfect04:21
jdongstill even a miniscule move of the mouse while clicking gets caught as a drag.04:22
jdongwould implementing a couple millisecs of time awareness into a buttondown in which motion events are discarded be insane?04:22
brycejdong, have you tried 12.6.3?04:43
jdongbryce: I stole a tarball from Debian Sid whatever that version is04:43
jdongyeah 12.6.304:43
jdongsame bug persists04:43
jdongholding the mouse as still I I can, clicking always generates a down, move, up event.04:44
brycejdong, hrm04:45
brycejdong, have you talked with upstream about this?  I've been exchanging emails with philip langdale the past couple days on vmmouse04:45
jdongit might be my host (VMware fusion 2.0.2)04:45
jdongbut in any event IMO the guest mouse driver shares some responsibility in filtering out nonsense and making it behave more like a mouse.04:45
jdongand no, I haven't had contact with upstream04:46
brycefwiw I'm considering merging up a backport of vmmouse for jaunty...04:46
jdongif you're in regular contact with them and want to poke this issue to them too, it'd be well appreciated04:46
brycehowever if it's too buggy04:46
jdongit'll require a bit of packaging changes (conflicting mdetect), other than that so far it looks good here04:46
bryceno, I don't really have the time to do a lot of troubleshooting (I never use vmware myself)04:46
brycebut if you work with them and get a patch, I'd be open to including it in the backport04:47
bryceI can put you in contact with philip if you'd like to bypass the usual process04:47
bryceer, "directly"04:48
jdongthat'd be cool04:48
brycejdong@ubuntu.com ?04:48
brycejdong: ok, start a bug and give me the bug # and I'll include it in the email04:51
jdongbryce: bug 36652104:59
ubottuLaunchpad bug 366521 in xserver-xorg-input-vmmouse "VMWare fusion host + vmmouse driver generates drag events on any click" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/36652104:59
bryceawesome, thanks05:00
jdongsure thing05:00
jdongyeah interestingly in this xev capture, it raised a completely null MotionNotify event...05:00
jdongi.e. motion to the exact same coordinate as the buttonpress one.05:00
jdongthat's clearly wacky behavior ;-)05:00
bryceemail sent05:01
brycehopefully it'll be something simple :-)05:01
brycefor some reason I have a sinking fear it is due to something busted in xserver05:02
jdongyeah I'm not sure exactly what the physical mice drivers do05:03
jdongbut it's always nailed the differecne between a click vs click-drag for me05:03
jdongbut vmmouse is kinda ridiculous05:03
jdongright now EVERY click is a click-drag05:03
jdongand with my one-liner hack if you even BREATHE on the mouse it turns into a drag.05:03
jdongI've seen a bit of mailing list banter on QT's list about this05:03
jdongit in fact is bad enough that their click-to-sort table widgets don't work with vmmouse05:04
bryceyou know, the symptoms you've described I had seen myself, although only with firefox, and it's long since gone away so I'm sure it' sunrelated...05:04
bryceheya andresmujica05:04
jdongbut QT folks adopted a very novel approach by claiming MotionNotify is for "logical motion"05:04
jdong(aka it's not our problem fix it elsewhere)05:04
brycein any case, if nothing else I sympathize with how irritating it is05:04
jdonghaha thanks :)05:04
jdongit's crazy I'm the only one who's complained about it so far05:05
jdongnot many people run Ubuntu in VMWare it seems05:05
bryceI think a lot of people moved from vmware to kvm05:05
jdong(at least not a GUI)05:05
bryceI used to get lots of bugs about ubuntu+vmware, pre-kvm05:05
jdongyeah, if I'm on a Linux host I'll jump to KVM first05:06
jdongbut on this hardware OS X is the best native platform (the one that gives me least grief setting up)05:06
jdongso it'd be nice if I can run a couple Ubuntu instances05:06
calcjdong: i use vmware with ubuntu05:09
bryceheya calc05:09
jdongcalc: do you get the crazy mouse symptoms I see here?05:10
calcjdong: i haven't noticed any problems with it yet with 6.5.2 other than the keyboard issue (it might be fixed for 6.5.2 i had to fix it in 6.5.0)05:10
jdongcalc:  a quick and dirty test: gnome-terminal, do a dmesg05:10
calchmm let me see05:10
jdongcalc: then do a single left click on any leftover blankness of a line of output05:10
jdongsee if the entire blank area gets selected.05:10
jdongor better yet, xev, click the mouse and see how many events fire05:10
jdongshould just be down then up05:11
jdongI get down, motion, up.05:11
calconly one press/release when i hit a button05:11
calchmm let me try a few more times05:11
jdongcalc: interesting, perhaps it's VMWare Fusion specifically that is implicated.05:11
jdongI did mention in my bug report it was on Fusion05:12
calci get notify events if i click inside the black square but only press/release for the other area05:12
calci am not completely up to date 9.04 in my vm though05:12
* calc does an update and sees what it does05:13
calcalso i'm running amd6405:13
jdongyeah this is 64-bit Ubuntu in my VM too05:13
jdongit's probably that your parent X server "numbs" motion events while clicking for you.05:13
jdongI'm betting OS X does use the GUI toolkit abstraction layer to weed out nonsense drags05:14
jdongI can imagine drag filtering being incredibly annoying to a graphics designer or a leet gamer.05:14
calcah maybe so, i'm running 9.04 amd64 -> vmware -> 9.04 amd6405:14
jdongright, I suspect the parent X server's mouse driver is playing a role05:14
calcwell when i click i'm not making any motion at all05:15
jdongnor am I attempting to do so05:15
calci'm using a laptop so its simply a keypress and that is all05:15
jdongin my testing above the mouse is off the table (optical)05:15
calcah ok05:15
jdongand the Motion event is for the exact coordinate of the click :)05:15
jdongwhich makes it even more idiotic05:15
calchmm apparently the servers are so loaded its causing even approx to hang for me, ugh05:17
jdongoh it's not a fun day at all in archive land :)05:19
andresmujicahi bryce!05:21
andresmujicahi all05:21
bryceandresmujica: o/05:22
infinitycjwatson: Yay, thanks.05:33
infinitycjwatson: I'll update the livefs stuff and triple-check that it works sometime early in the weekend, so I can sleep soundly for the rest of the weekend knowing that my "new release" work is more or less done. :)05:34
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LordKowwhom/where would i file ubuntu wiki bugs at? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot does not work for jaunty. i believe it has to do with the fact that recommends are now installed by default. if you follow the how to exactly as it describes then you are left with a broken chroot env09:19
mdkecjwatson: thanks for the info09:21
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jpdsLordKow: Well, it's a wiki - so you can do so yourself, but you can look at who did the previous edits for advice.10:01
LordKowjpds: ah i see. i thought maybe the wiki was a little more controlled than that. im not just going to edit it... maybe there is some sort of commenting feature i can utilize.10:03
joaopintoLordKow, how is it broken, what problem are you getting ?10:04
jpdsLordKow: Yes, there's a 'Comment for this edit:' field.10:06
LordKowjoaopinto: 'apt-get install wget debconf devscripts gnupg nano  #For package-building' when installing devscripts it wants to install dbus which will most definitely not work in a chroot. apt errors out in the dbus postinst script when it tries to start the service. and then it errors out again when trying to remove it (prerm script)10:06
LordKowim not really sure why devscripts needs dbus in the first place. im guessing there is a dep that maybe (incorrectly?) depends on dbus... i can't see how any devscript or any of it's deps would need dbus. that is a pretty rich package though so i could be missing something.10:08
joaopintoLordKow, you will need apt-get install --no-install-recommends ...10:10
joaopintoLordKow, it does not depend on dbus, it's a "recommends" relation10:11
LordKowjoaopinto: ah okay. so it was between intrepid and jaunty release that ubuntu went with the install recommends by default (following debian guidelines)?10:13
joaopintoI believe it was during intrepid10:13
LordKowjoaopinto: perfect, --no-install-recommends took care of it. now it should be passed along to the wiki page which im working on figuring out right now10:16
LordKowjoaopinto, jpds: thanks for the help10:24
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rjune_Where can I find some short examples on how to work with libapt-pkg?15:17
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PingJockyQuick one... Is there a different Kernel Between ubuntu and ubuntu NBR in 9.04?16:29
PingJockythanks!!! i have been looking everywhere for that16:30
PingJockysomething aint right with the ACPI and my eeepc 1000 isnt chrging16:31
PingJockyIll submit a bug report and roll it back to 8.10 with the array kernel16:32
larsiviI have to ask - why is Ubuntu 9.04 released with a dysfunctional intel xorg driver?17:48
LaserJocklarsivi: basically because it was the best we got17:49
larsiviLaserJock: I understand the complications of package and kernel dependencies, but there has been a constant regression since 8.04 meaning that maybe keeping with some older versions would have been a better compromise17:50
LaserJocklarsivi: except there's problems matching Xorg and driver versions I believe17:51
LaserJocklarsivi: I don't know that the old driver on newer Xorg worked any better17:51
larsiviLaserJock: so then one could have opted for an older Xorg too17:52
larsiviAm I wrong in thinking that most users have intel cards?17:52
calclarsivi: at least as far as 2.4 vs 2.6 goes they both suck in different ways according to the phoronix performance tests anyway17:52
LaserJocklarsivi: which would have caused problems for everybody else17:52
LaserJocklarsivi: yes, you are17:52
LaserJocklarsivi: I think anyway there are more nvidia/ATI out there presently, I could be wrong though17:52
calcLaserJock: "most" is true but not an overwhelming majority17:52
calcintel has by far the majority marketwide... not sure about ubuntu users specifically17:53
larsivicalc: I wasn't suggesting a 2.4 kernel :P17:53
LaserJockcalc: more intel than everything else combined?17:53
calclarsivi: i'm talking about intel driver version number17:53
larsivicalc: hehe, ok :)17:53
calcLaserJock: not to that extent but iirc its over 40% intel (maybe 50%)17:53
* calc looks at the data again17:54
LaserJockcalc: yeah, I could believe that17:54
LaserJockmy point was that holding Xorg back is not an easy decision17:54
LaserJockespecially if you think the -intel drivers are going to be better than they were17:54
calcintel has 47.8% according to that site for shipments for 200817:54
LaserJockcalc: well, on new machines sure17:55
calc47.8% for Q42008, was 49.4% 2008Q317:55
LaserJockcalc: I was just thinking of all our users out there, I'm guessing quite a few still have nvidia/ATI17:55
LaserJockthere are quite a few machines still being used form before Intel was even really in the market17:55
calcLaserJock: yea for Ubuntu users specifically the makeup may be different but Intel has been at ~ 50% for many years17:56
larsivianyway, this appears to have been known for quite some time (more than 6 months), so I find it a bit curious that those that can (Canonical?) haven't spent more resources on it17:56
calcnvidia seems to actually be losing marketshare as time progresses17:56
LaserJocklarsivi: I think pretty much all who could, did what they could17:57
calcand ! (AMD/Intel/Nvidia) percentage-wise is just noise17:57
LaserJocklarsivi: we had several testings of different options, it just seemed like every change would help some but not others17:57
calcaccording to the numbers for laptops (where most Intel IGP is used anyway) the numbers are actually ~ 60% for Intel17:58
LaserJocklarsivi: http://keithp.com/blogs/Sharpening_the_Intel_Driver_Focus/ might be a good read17:58
larsiviLaserJock: in 8.10 things were slow for me (couldn't use desktop effects), but now it is close to unusable (although desktop effects are fast enough now) due to graphical glitches and absurd cpu usage17:59
larsiviLaserJock: I follow the xorg mailing list17:59
LaserJocklarsivi: right, so helping the Ubuntu X team and upstream to figure out why you're having problems is probably worthwhile18:00
LaserJocklarsivi: for me 8.10 was just fine, 9.04 I get GPU lockups when using desktop effects18:00
LaserJocksuch is life sometimes :/18:00
calcLaserJock: i think part of the reason we see more non intel users on Ubuntu is due to them being power-users and thus willingly to pay more for the nvidia binary only drivers :-\18:01
LaserJockcalc: surely there are a lot of people using older machines though too18:01
LaserJockcalc: I only have one machine with an Intel card because most of my machines were built before Intel was commonplace18:02
larsiviLaserJock: yeah, I have put forth my information in the relevant places18:02
calcperhaps that is true for very old machines < 8 years old18:03
LaserJockcalc: ?!18:03
calcintel has dominated the graphics market since probably shortly after i81018:03
calcer > 8 years old (over i used the wrong symbol)18:03
LaserJockcalc: I only really started to see them ~ 2 years ago18:03
calcLaserJock: a lot of marketshare is in business desktops which has used integrated intel graphics nearly forever18:04
LaserJockcalc: ah, that'd make sense18:05
calcin 2005 it appears intel had somewhere ~ 35% market share with ati taking second place at 24%18:06
LaserJocklarsivi: anyway, yeah, -intel suckage is kind of a known thing, but it wasn't for lack of trying to get something better18:06
calcroughly the same in 200618:06
LaserJockcalc: good grief, really? I'd never heard of an intel graphics card until probably 200718:07
LaserJockor wait, 2006 maybe18:08
LaserJockdarn, had it been *that* long since Dapper?! :/18:08
calc2004 mobile market intel had 40% (the 2005/2006 numbers were for desktop above)18:08
larsiviI have the 965 now, before that the 915 which I bought in a laptop early 200518:09
highvoltagehey LaserJock18:09
larsivithe 915 came a long time after the 810 stuff18:09
larsiviLaserJock: so assume that 40% of ubuntu users have intel graphics cards, and maybe half of those experience issues, that would mean that 20% of jackalope users would have issues with it that are obvious and easy to notice - that is a blocker in any other software18:10
calcit looks like 2003 overall share intel had ~ 32%18:10
calcwith ati at 25%18:10
LaserJocklarsivi: yeah, but there wasn't much that could be done unfortunately18:12
LaserJocklarsivi: hopefully 9.10 will be *much* better on that front18:12
larsiviLaserJock: no offense meant, but that is bullshit - that is a fix to delay a release for18:13
calcoverall we need to do what our users require and using hwdb to track that would be useful :)18:13
LaserJocklarsivi: for how long?18:13
LaserJocklarsivi: the problem isn't even really known as far as I know (I'm not an X expert by any means)18:14
* calc thinks the current ubuntu user breakdown would have lots more ati/nvidia than the overall marketshare numbers would otherwise indicate18:14
larsiviLaserJock: I would have lost my job 10 times if I had released software that didn't work for 20% of the users18:14
LaserJocklarsivi: I don't think there's any gaurantee that with a delay of even a month or two that things were going to be much better18:14
LaserJocklarsivi: it's not our software, it's Intel's and Xorg's18:14
larsivibut ubuntu pick it18:15
sistpotymaybe there'll be updates?18:15
LaserJocklarsivi: we could have decided to not ship an -intel driver, yes18:15
larsivinow I'm a private user, so I may not switch, but as a commercial user I would have dropped Ubuntu over this issue18:15
LaserJocksistpoty: hopefully18:16
LaserJockit'd really be nice to get things better for sure18:17
sistpotylarsivi: I assume as a commercial user you wouldn't run jaunty right after its release, but maybe go with hardy instead?18:17
larsivisistpoty: that is a point, but for the desktop I don't find the LTS that important18:18
sistpoty*shrug*, was just a guess18:18
larsiviwhen that is said, as a proffesional user I actually find it a bit problematic that python haven't been upgraded to 2.618:20
LaserJocklarsivi: you mean in 8.04?18:20
larsiviLaserJock: yes - sorry for confusing matters a bit18:21
LaserJockyeah, adding a whole new python version isn't really -updates territory18:23
larsivianyway - will leave you with my bile for now :P18:26
LucidFoxWhen is karmic development going to start?18:27
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calcLaserJock: i think larsivi didn't get the fact that he would have to drop all Linux shipped ~ 2009 to avoid this intel problem18:42
calcLaserJock: already has18:42
calcLaserJock: the toolchain is being worked on now18:42
LaserJockcalc: right, yeah, I guess the perception is that we just picked the wrong version and that's it18:51
* calc read the keithp post, sounds good going forward18:52
calchopefully no one decides to rewrite xorg again next month :\18:52
calcLaserJock: fortunately places like phoronix have made it clear that there wasn't really a choice18:53
LordMetroidDo the UDS cost anything to attend?18:59
[reed]no, they are free... of course, travel is yours to pay unless you get sponsored18:59
[reed]LordMetroid: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSKarmic19:00
ScottKjcastro: Thanks for the link to the Intel video blog post.19:06
ScottKI'd feel better if he'd mentioned UXA is pretty unstable for a lot of people and they were fixing that.19:07
Nafallohmm. UXA is the thing that made compiz eat my memory I think :-)19:08
LucidFoxcalc> Ah, I see... https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic19:17
LucidFoxWhat I meant was, when is it going to be unfrozen?19:17
LucidFoxhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule has April 30 as "toolchain uploaded"19:17
LaserJockLucidFox: the toolchain is being worked on right now19:19
LucidFoxYes, I realize this :)19:20
ScottKLucidFox: When it's ready.19:23
* LucidFox nods19:23
ScottKLucidFox: You can upload stuff now, it'll just get held until the archive opens.19:23
LordMetroidThis is ridiculus19:55
LordMetroidUbuntu has only gotten slower and slower, now gedit is even unable to render the characters at the same moment I type them.19:56
LordMetroidThis problem needs to be addressed or is Ubuntu only intended for high end computers...19:57
renderohello, what changed since kernel 2.6.28, because i cannot establish a ppp <-> nas interface and connect to internet anymore19:58
=== Omegamoon|away is now known as Omegamoon
LordMetroidThey replaced the kernel with Ms code20:00
mneptokLordMetroid: do you have Compiz enabled? if so, disable it.20:05
mneptokLordMetroid: what does (h)(a)top say?20:05
mneptokhtop atop20:07
mneptokchoose yer poison20:07
LordMetroidbrb, installing one of them20:08
mneptokLordMetroid: before you join a developer channel and rant about the lack of quality and performance problems, using basic tools to actually check your own machine is a best practice.20:10
LordMetroidI have run top20:11
mneptokwhat process is utilizing the most CPU cycles?20:12
mneptokand what video chipset and grpahic driver are you using?20:12
LordMetroidAn ATI Radeon Mobility 760020:13
mneptokand whose driver?20:13
LordMetroidX is occupying like 40%20:13
LordMetroidThe default from installation20:13
mneptokmetacity --replace20:16
mneptokrestart X20:16
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* mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme20:24
cr3mneptok: hey dude!20:41
mneptokcr3: our final weekend in .qc, we leave on Tuesday. got back from the MySQL conf @ 3am last night. :(20:43
cr3mneptok: sounds painful, where was the conf?20:43
mneptokcr3: Santa Clara21:02
mneptok(Silicon Valley)21:02
Julieh_suck my dick21:21
LordMetroidI figured it out, subpixel rendering is the demon in this...21:50
mneptokno, your video driver is21:51
mneptoksubpixel smoothing works just fine on my Intel chipset21:51
LordMetroidTurning off subpixel rendering on the text solved it though22:00
AmaranthLordMetroid: VBGR?22:30
AmaranthOk then, something is wrong with your driver22:31
AmaranthAlthough even a CPU from the time that GPU came out should be able to do subpixel rendering without using 40% CPU22:32
AmaranthUnless you have that GPU but a 500Mhz CPU or something :P22:32
LordMetroidI got a 2.4GHz P522:32
LordMetroidmobile variant(if there is such)22:33
AmaranthYou should be able to do full software rendering without using 40% CPU then as long as you aren't trying to use compiz :P22:33
AmaranthLordMetroid: Try with the vesa driver22:34
LordMetroidhow do I change?22:34
AmaranthLordMetroid: edit your xorg.conf22:34
LordMetroidxorf.conf is empty22:34
AmaranthLordMetroid: If it doesn't chew CPU with vesa the bug is in the radeon driver22:34
AmaranthLordMetroid: dexconf then22:34
AmaranthLordMetroid: Did you file a bug, btw?22:35
LordMetroidYes, I have, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/36622422:36
ubottuUbuntu bug 366224 in xorg "Rendering artifact on text in firefox and gedit" [Undecided,New]22:36
Amaranthyeah, that bug is going to be the driver22:36
LordMetroidrestarting the X server to see if it take effects22:39
affluxcould someone explain why ubuntu does not ship static versions of libgcj? I couldn't find info on that...23:25
dtchenbug 44878923:27
ubottuError: Launchpad bug 448789 could not be found23:27
dtchendebian 44878923:27
ubottuDebian bug 448789 in gcj-4.2 "Static libgcj is not supplied for gcj-4.2" [Important,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/44878923:27
directhexafflux, why is static linking desired? debbuntu generally relies on a "include things only once" rule, which is pretty dynamic-linking-reliant23:33
affluxdirecthex: I thought it was common to include .a files in -dev packages. In this case I need them for a work project, so I'll go rebuilding gcj.23:34
directhexdirecthex@desire:~$ apt-file search -x \\.a$ | cut -f1 -d':' | sort | uniq | wc -l23:37
directhexsome packages do23:37
affluxI agree23:38

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